Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?

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WGH

Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« on: 1 Nov 2021, 11:01 pm »
The 'Dune' thread made me curious as to why the sound in movie theaters is so loud and dialog still can't be understood. It turns out there are many interconnected issues and there is nothing we can do about it.

The most basic answer is bad calibration by poorly trained technicians and not necessarily the film. Many people have had a problem with the dialog in 'Dune' but also many have not so the problem doesn't seem to be with the source. I found a couple of articles that explain how theater sound works without getting too far into the weeds. Here are a few of the highlights with links if you want to know more.


Cinema sound system alignment explains how theater loudness is supposed to be set up. The article includes some interesting info that would apply to home theaters too.
http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/17_cinema_7.html

"The most important reference for all cinemas from the pink noise sound level measurement is for the Dolby processor volume control to be set at No 7 at 85dB SPL in the cinema room. The surround level is then calibrated to -3dB as 82dB SPL. This reference is applied at the original recording, insuring the audience will hear the sound at the correct level the film director intended, with the processor level control set at No 7."

"No7 on the Dolby processor represents -20dBFS, therefore the maximum level available is another 20dB.   This extra level is rarely used but it is available for special productions that require the audience to hear extreme sound levels." Hans Zimmer must love there is 20dB of headroom built into the system although it will require x100 more power.

"All cinemas are meant to be aligned to the creed of the 'X-Curve' without question,   The X-curve was originally created to provide consistency to the traditional alignment method.   The X-curve is a high frequency roll-off beginning at 2kHz at -3dB/octave, then -6dB/octave from 10kHz."



The 85dB pink noise reference can be measured 4 different ways. In one method, if each speaker is individually calibrated to 85db, the result is a 5dB increase when all 3 front speakers are used.


'Loud Movies' Explained: Aural overkill in cinemas is a solvable problem expands on the info above
http://fj.webedia.us/features/loud-movies-explained-aural-overkill-cinemas-solvable-problem

"A fader setting of “7.0” is supposed to mean that a film will play at exactly the same sound level as when the fader is at “7.0” on the mixing stage. But the fader does not control the sound level the audience hears. Rather, it’s controlled by the sound levels set by the theatre technician when the fader is at “7.0.”

"Unfortunately, due to a collection of unseen errors that are built into their calibration procedure, the sound levels the technicians set are typically 6 dB high and can be as much as 10. To put this in perspective, a 1 dB increase in an eight-channel sound system can seem like 6 to 9 dB to an audience.

"Virtually every system in today’s movie theatres is mis-equalized. With all the technology we have, there is no measurement system that measures what something sounds like. Don’t believe anyone who tells you there is. Therefore, technicians must interpret the measurements that current science allows. Training for such interpretation has not been available. This leaves them with little choice but to do everything necessary to conform their frequency response measurements to the X curve, typically without allowing for tolerances.

"This results in excessive equalization that can remove some of the sound spectrum in several narrow bites. The sound system’s tone and dialog intelligibility are then diminished, causing a reduction to the overall measured sound level. Mistakenly reducing spectrum causes films to play another 2 dB, or so, too loud. This is because the technician then increases the gain in order to make up for the narrow spectrum losses that have been inadvertently created. The number he or she gets on a meter may look correct, but it’s been corrupted by a corrupted sound spectrum. With just these first two errors alone, we are now up to presenting movies at least 3.4 dB louder than they are made if the fader remains at “7.0.”

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« Reply #1 on: 1 Nov 2021, 11:09 pm »
At some theaters I put a piece of tissue paper in each ear due to the volume.  There is one theater that I won't even go to anymore due to how loud it is.

Mike-48

Re: Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« Reply #2 on: 1 Nov 2021, 11:30 pm »
Movie sound is pretty bad. Overbearing, and at the same time, it's often hard to understand the dialog.

Though some of that may be my aging hearing, I infer that it's not just at the playback stage, or in my ears/brain, that there is a problem. In movies, music is mixed louder and louder, as are effects, but dialog is at about the same level as ever. Since modern actors don't "declaim" in the old style, but talk naturally, often mumbling or blurting something out, dialog gets lost in the music and effects. I read that US theaters are starting put put up subtitles even for English-language films.

charmerci

Re: Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« Reply #3 on: 2 Nov 2021, 06:47 am »
You mean it's simply not distortion?

Letitroll98

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Re: Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« Reply #4 on: 2 Nov 2021, 12:14 pm »
Thanks for the excellent elucidation of the problem.  When I had a complete home theater I always experienced better sound quality at home than in the theater, now I understand why.  The quoted article mimics exactly what I have heard.

whell

Re: Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« Reply #5 on: 2 Nov 2021, 01:09 pm »
In movie soundtracks like Dune (I understood the movie dialogue for the most part, but certainly there were a few times when actors were whispering and I had trouble making out what was being said), the range between the loudest and quietest elements are GREATLY exaggerated.   This experience doesn't often add much to the movie, and can sometimes be quite annoying. 

But this is nothing really new.  Remember back in the 1970's with movies like Earthquake and Midway that had a "Sensurround" soundtrack.  This came complete with giant speakers in the back of the theater.  I remember in the movie Midway, the opening scene of Japanese plans revving up on the flight deck: the sound was so loud and there was a breeze moving under the theater seats from the woofers in the back of the theater!

I used to have a DVD player from NAD that had a setting called "Night Mode", I think, that reduced the dynamic range between the loudest and quietest elements of the soundtrack, and made movies much more listenable.  Wish the streaming services had this feature.

wushuliu

Re: Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« Reply #6 on: 20 Nov 2021, 10:25 pm »
As with most technology nowadays the goal is more features, not better. Personally I have found theaters to be too *quiet* overall (except when I was in L.A.), but the overall sound mix I agree is poor.

"Training is also a serious problem. It doesn’t exist in any formal sense..." - This is pretty much par for the course for most jobs, so this doesn't surprise me in the least.

And let's not forget that most screens still display in 2k. So not only is the sound poorly done, but the picture quality is also worse than what you can get at home.

There was a reason Lucas created THX and why we (or at least me) would get excited when the logo and intro would appear on the best screens. It was an assurance that a base level of calibration was done.

And don't get me started on the theaters that leave the east-west bright path lights on that end up reflecting on the bottom of the screen and ruining the experience since the poor 2k digital projection also has crap contrast ratio.

Rant over.

[Edit: Sad to see the article was among the last from 'Film Journal'. Sigh.]


Barry_NJ

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Re: Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« Reply #7 on: 30 Mar 2022, 06:42 pm »
Horrible theater experiences are what made me go from a listening room to a media-room, and every time I go back to the theater, I'm reminded why I hadn't gone in so long...

Vince in TX

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Re: Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« Reply #8 on: 30 Mar 2022, 07:16 pm »
Horrible theater experiences are what made me go from a listening room to a media-room, and every time I go back to the theater, I'm reminded why I hadn't gone in so long...

I've spoiled more than a few friends with my home theater setup.   Every one of them has come back and said that the commercial theaters (outside of IMAX or Dolby Cinema) suck in comparison.

kenreau

Re: Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« Reply #9 on: 30 Mar 2022, 07:34 pm »
The movie theater experience is now dead to me.  Abusive sound levels with poor sound quality, being forced to watch 20 minutes of TV commercials and previews (with same sound quality issues) and the ridiculous prices of tickets and concessions. 

I invested in my home theater room and the experience is vastly better. 

I will be surprised if the commercial theaters continue to exist in the next few years with direct to streaming releases and the above issues.

Vince in TX

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Re: Why is Cinema Sound So Loud?
« Reply #10 on: 30 Mar 2022, 07:56 pm »
The movie theater experience is now dead to me.  Abusive sound levels with poor sound quality, being forced to watch 20 minutes of TV commercials and previews (with same sound quality issues) and the ridiculous prices of tickets and concessions. 

I invested in my home theater room and the experience is vastly better. 

I will be surprised if the commercial theaters continue to exist in the next few years with direct to streaming releases and the above issues.

Before I built my dedicated theater and made it (seemingly) almost on par with a Dolby Cinema (outside the laser projection), the only theaters I would go to were Dolby Cinema or IMAX.   Everything else wasn't much different from watching it on my 75" QLED at home with 7.1.2 surround other than the group experience.   Even IMAX lost some of its luster since it took too long for them to add the recliners.   My problem is I grew up in northern and southern California where the filmmakers had a more direct hand in the presentation quality of the movie theaters.   Empire Strikes Back in 70mm was an unbelievable experience in the Galaxy theaters in San Jose, for instance.   Even visiting Los Angeles a few years ago before the pandemic, their basic theater rivaled anything I'd experienced in the Houston area outside Dolby Cinema or the THX theater in Mesquite, TX (assuming it's still there).

When going to the theater with friends, I would always insist on sitting fifth row center, and they never really understood this until I built my theater and demonstrated what they were missing by sitting way in the back or off to one side.   I've always gone for max immersion.

Funny story, my wife said she missed seeing the movie previews, so now I'll que up a few of them before starting the movie even in our own cinema.   I just noticed recentlty that Plex can do this automatically.   I need to check that out, too.    :thumb: