Tube preamp for Stratos?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 8093 times.

byteme

Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #20 on: 9 Dec 2004, 09:48 pm »
Another deHavilland Ultraverve available on a-gon!  Don't know if $1500 is "reasonable" but it's a fantastic match.

Christophe35

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 72
Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #21 on: 9 Dec 2004, 11:02 pm »
JoshK, what is the good ratio between amp input Z and pre output Z ? (minnimum ratio that can be qualified good)

Christophe

Chris_B

Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #22 on: 10 Dec 2004, 12:36 am »
I have always heard that the pre out Z should be less than 10% of the amp's input Z.  While that rule of thumb may be helpful, it is probably best to try the gear together and let the sound speak for itself.

KarlDL

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 83
Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #23 on: 11 Dec 2004, 04:35 am »
Here we go again with perpetual preamp output impedance question.

The 10:1 "rule of thumb" represents reasonable guidance that's readily supported by theory.  If the Stratos input ("load") impedance is 10K, the "source" impedance of the device (preamp) should not exceed 1K.

Where this gets dicey - and confusing - quickly is in the specsmanship of the preamp manufacturer or seller.  Some will quote a true "source" impedance, while others will quote a recommended "load" impedance, with most not precisely stating which their number represents.

The "source" impedance is that which results in the voltage across it being half of that which would exist with the device operating into an open circuit.  Practically speaking, you run a tone through the device at low level, measure the output voltage with a high-impedance voltmeter (nearly all digital multimeters - DMMS - are), and connect resistors of decreasing value from 1M downward until the voltage is reduced by 50 percent.  That resistance is the "source" value.  To be precise, impedance has resistive and reactive components, but reactance is negligible in preamp outputs and power amp inputs, except at the farthest frequency extremes, so it's not relevant here.

But the stated "output impedance" of the apparatus is just as likely to be the "load" value that the manufacturer considers the minimum for proper performance.  If the "source" value is 1K, the recommended minimum load is usually 10K or more.

So the poor consumer is likely to be confused: if the spec sheet says 10K without any qualifying words (e.g., "source" or "load"), is the proper minimum rating of the device being fed 10K or 100K?  Hard tell without knowledge of the circuit topology or the test equipment to just go measure it.

Anyway, with regard to the present discussion, some generalization is possible.  If the tube preamp utilizes the "cathode follower" configuration in its final amplifying stage, it should be happy with the 10K load of the Stratos.  However, if the last tube stage is a "common cathode" amplifier, it's not likely to play at its potential with the Stratos, if it uses common tubes like the 6DJ8, 12AX7, etc.  There are tubes with low "plate resistances" that are quite comfortable with a 10K load, but they're uncommon in audio applications.

I could continue to write on the theoretical nuances of component matching, but this is probably too far into geek-talk as it is.  As Klaus so often notes, synergy is everything.  Some of that is achieved by ensuring that components are matched to each other from a technical perspective.  The rest is, well, an art, maddeningly frustrating, fun adventure, or a little of both.  

Karl

Christophe35

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 72
Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #24 on: 11 Dec 2004, 11:08 pm »
Thanks Karl for this very informative post.

Christophe

mred

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 7
tube pre-amp for stratos
« Reply #25 on: 14 Dec 2004, 02:56 am »
Yes, KARLDL, very informative. With that said does anyone have any experience with using Audible Illusions 3A with the Extreme monos?

mred

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 7
tube pre-amp for stratos
« Reply #26 on: 14 Dec 2004, 02:56 am »
Yes, KARLDL, very informative. With that said does anyone have any experience with using Audible Illusions 3A with the Extreme monos?

jcoat007

Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #27 on: 14 Dec 2004, 04:17 pm »
I seem to recall Tyson having that in his system many systems ago.  Probably not the Extreme monos, but the regular monos.

zarco

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 13
AI L1 & Extremes
« Reply #28 on: 14 Dec 2004, 04:55 pm »
I have been using an audible illusions L1 with my mono block extremes for a year or so now. Couldnt be happier with the combo,although I havent tried any other preamps with the Extremes yet.Curious how the tempest would compare.But the L1 and Extreme combo doesnt leave me wanting for  anything...except more music to play through them! By the way,I am using a Khartogo monoblock for a center channel for home theater with the extremes for L&R going through the preamp...what killer sound..unbeleivable!

WEEZ

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1341
Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #29 on: 17 Dec 2004, 09:19 pm »
regarding output impedence of tube preamps...

I am aware of the 10 factor- but that isn't always applicable to all set-ups. If the pre-amp has high current drive- that may work okay. A factor of 40 or more is a much safer ratio.

Blue Circle tube preamps claim output z of 180 ohms. The Manley Shrimp claims 50.

To be safe- keep the ratio as large as possible with cables of lower capacitance and you should be okay.

( I learned of impedence mis-matches the hard way years ago- and I'm very careful these days).

WEEZ

KarlDL

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 83
Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #30 on: 18 Dec 2004, 03:40 am »
Load/source impedance factor of 10 is a good starting point.  Higher is generally better, hence comment from WEEZ.

But, regardless of ratio, the "source" impedance of the tube pre may not be the determining factor of sonic signature and performance.  What makes a substantial difference is the value and quality of the inevitable output coupling capacitor in the tube pre.  For a 10K load, e.g., Stratos, the cap should be at least 10µF and of high quality polypropylene, e.g., Auricap etc.  Anything less, whether in magnitude or quality, will deteriorate low-end performance.  Some might note that there's not much frequency response difference from 3µF to 10µF.  Mathematically, true.  But there's a substantial phase-, or, transformed mathematically, time- domain difference, that is definitely audible.  And there may be high-frequency aural deficiencies induced by the same capacitor(s).

Back to the "what's the poor consumer to do?"

Step 1:  Ask the right questions with the right terms: what's the source impedance of the pre (alternatively, recommended load impedance) and the load impedance of the power amp?  Look for 10:1 or higher for load/source, 1:1 or higher for (pwr)load/(pre)load.  No, don't ask about the output coupling capacitors.  Unless the dealer is an electronics geek, s/he won't have a clue.

Step 2:  Listen to the pre/amp combination with familiar sources.  If the low end isn't right, it's most likely caused by an inadequate output capacitor(s) in the tube pre, not the source/load ratio.  If the highs aren't right, say imprecise on attack and turning the high-hats into amorphous shimmer, the same problem is likely, but in a different way.  Consumer solution?  Try another tube product.  Geek solution?  Replace capacitor(s).

In all-tube gear, matching the output voltage of the pre to the input voltage of the power amp may be a consideration.  But it should be no factor with the Stratos.  Due to the comparatively high gain of the Stratos, the voltage output of the pre is probably far below its capability.

Beyond the foregoing, you're into territory where only listening determines your preference.  Technological considerations provide answers up to a point, and one beyond what many people think.  But out farther, it's all subjective and perhaps even psychological.

Karl

speedcenter

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 147
    • http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/audio
Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #31 on: 21 Dec 2004, 10:36 pm »
I use a customized Bottlehead Foreplay with my Extreme monos. I had to tweak my stepped attenuators a little to match the amps (the stock settings were far too loud on the first notch), but it's a great sounding combo. Last year I had a chance to compare my pre directly with the Tempest and was quite impressed with the Tempest. If I HAD to buy an SS pre, I would probably call Klaus.  I am sure the Tempest sounds much better than a bone-stock Foreplay, but then it also costs a whole lot more.

Peter

speedcenter

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 147
    • http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/audio
Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #32 on: 21 Dec 2004, 10:40 pm »
Quote from: KarlDL
For a 10K load, e.g., Stratos, the cap should be at least 10µF and of high quality polypropylene, e.g., Auricap etc.  Anything less, wh ...


I have 3.0uF auricaps in my pre, and can't really complain about bass, even though I am running on Magnepan speakers that are often accused of being "bass-shy"

I'll drop in some bigger caps next time I open it up and compare. Am building a second generation tube pre this winter anyway, and that's a good time to try out something new like this.

Peter

Christophe35

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 72
Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #33 on: 21 Dec 2004, 11:34 pm »
The perfect tube pre for the stratos is probably the SL erleuchteung. Klaus already said they won't be an odyssey version of this preamp because of its complexity. Easy to undertand, I think they are about 18 tubes in the erleuchteung ..
What would be nice is if Rolf Gemein, from SL, designed a more simple tube preamp that after, Klaus could use to build an odyssey product ..
Well, we are close to christmas, good time for dreaming ...

Christophe

F-100

Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #34 on: 22 Dec 2004, 12:15 am »
Holy Batman!!! 18 tubes in a preamp?????  NOS tubes are not cheap.

djbnh

Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #35 on: 22 Dec 2004, 02:30 am »
Quote from: F-100
Holy Batman!!! 18 tubes in a preamp?????  NOS tubes are not cheap.


The Fisher 800-B receiver (circa 1960) I use now for a tuner has 22 tubes...all NOS...lots of Telefunkens, Mullards...

F-100

Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #36 on: 22 Dec 2004, 04:23 am »
I'm no tube expert here but I have own several tube equipments in the past and the most that I've ever seen in one unit is 6. :).
So it's safe to assume that the more tubes derive to the better sound?

BikeWNC

Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #37 on: 22 Dec 2004, 05:25 am »
Quote from: Christophe35
The perfect tube pre for the stratos is probably the SL erleuchteung. Klaus already said they won't be an odyssey version of this preamp because of its complexity. Easy to undertand, I think they are about 18 tubes in the erleuchteung ..
What would be nice is if Rolf Gemein, from SL, designed a more simple tube preamp that after, Klaus could use to build an odyssey product ..
Well, we are close to christmas, good time for dreaming ...

Christophe


Yes, the Erleuchtung is a great match for my Odyssey amps, I have the Extreme Monos.  The standard version has 14 tubes, all 6N1P.  They go for about $6 each unless you want cryo'd tubes then they run about $14.  I think the reference version has 16 tubes and they may be of a more costly variety.

Andy

wispaton

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 4
Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #38 on: 22 Dec 2004, 12:59 pm »
Has anyone used the TAD-150 from BIZZY BEE's with a STRATOS.
I really want a remote.

Dennis

Christophe35

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 72
Tube preamp for Stratos?
« Reply #39 on: 22 Dec 2004, 02:06 pm »
Quote from: Tsunami
Yes, the Erleuchtung is a great match for my Odyssey amps, I have the Extreme Monos.  The standard version has 14 tubes, all 6N1P.  They go for about $6 each unless you want cryo'd tubes then they run about $14.  I think the reference version has 16 tubes and they may be of a more costly variety.

Andy


Tsunami,

Are the 6N1P in the standart version NOS or current production ?
Did you had an occasion to compare the erleuchtung to the tempest ?

Christophe