Acoustic treatment a wife can love

mono-tubeleosis · « **on:** 17 Jun 2006, 06:50 pm »

It's time to treat my living room acoustically. But after reading countless threads and seeing photos etc., I know I'll never get away with what I'm seeing from an aesthetics stand-point with the wifey! I need some help finding the least obtrusive looking acoustic treatment I can find. It has to integrate into the room design with fabrics that are color coordinated to the room etc. Smaller is better.

The room is fairly large at 24 x 24 x 9. Standing in the middle of the room looking forward I have a 12 ft. wide entertainment center up against the wall that houses my 2-channel system (Paradox 3's, Rava sub, Rega Planet CD, and soon to be Dodd mono-blocks/Pre amp). I would love to show you pics of the room but I couldn't figure out how to attach them to my post.

To my left, I have Large windows and french doors covering the majority of that wall. They have wood Plantation shutters covering them. There is about 2 ft. of wall between the windows and the centered doors. There is about a foot and a half of wall between the corners and the windows.

To my right I have an opening to the room that is 8.5 ft wide centered. on each side of the opening there are two small openings for decorative pots or whatever.

The back wall has one small opening to the left that leads you to the den kitchen area. There are two 3x6 hanging tapestries on that wall.

The entertainment center houses the speakers that are 11 feet apart center to center. I know this is not ideal for speakers being in a cabinet as opposed to being out in the open 3 ft from the wall. I have thought of a way to be able to move them out of the cabinet by putting them on a base attached to rails. This way I can move them out farther when I'm listening to music and move them back in when I'm not.

I once got some advice from someone in the industry that if I just made triangular panels for the corners up at the ceiling I could improve acoustics dramatically. If anyone has done that and has pics I would appreciate seeing or hearing about it. Of course any and all suggestions on anything else would be great.

bpape · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 Jun 2006, 08:15 pm »

While treating the tri-corners will certainly help some (since that's the one place that sits at the end of all the room dimensions), that room is very large and opens into another. It has 2 identical dimensions. It also is very non-symmetric with the windows/shutters on 1 side and a 'hole' on the other side.

That room will need a lot more than just some triangles in the corners. You'll need to deal with some very deep modal issues - coupled with all of them being laid on top of each other with the 24 and 24' length and width.

You'll also need some reflection control and general decay control.

My first recommendation for something wife friendly would be to use heavy, full hanging (even when closed) curtains over the windows. This will help with the symmetry of the space by absorbing sound - much like the hole lets sound not bounce back at you.

Have you considered building a soffit? A false soffit around the room would be unobtrusive yet still allow a lot of square footage of broadband absorbtion in all 3 dimensions.

After all of that, think about building something similar to a pair of Japanese dressing screens - but with absorbtion in them. These can covered with a nice ornamental (but open) fabric and have a nicely stained wooden frame. A pair of these along the side walls at the reflection points can look very nice and also provide the reflection control and general decay time control you need.

Just some thoughts.

Bryan

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Jun 2006, 08:45 pm »

Excellent ideas Bryan.
mono.. Are you having specific problems in the room, ie... bright highs, boomy bass?
Are the floors hardwood, tile, carpet ? If something hard, how about a thick area rug. Or mulitiple rugs due to large square footage. Nice cushy heavily padded chairs or sofa's ect..
Are the speakers the big heavy tower type? How about wheels if they're to big & heavy to drag out (when the family's gone and it's time to play with the volume knob)

BTW mono, I've got my goodies displayed on 'webshots', the address is linked in my signature. It's not hard to get you pic on, just kind of a PITA this way. Not totally sure how to explain method of displaying pics in your post.

Bob

mono-tubeleosis · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Jun 2006, 09:46 pm »

Thanks Bryan. Are you saying by just having a soffit I'll improve my situation? Or would I be adding something to the soffit (like fabric etc.).

as for the decorative dressing screens, do you mean padded screens for absorbtion then covered with a fabric that allows the sound to pass through to the absorbed material?

That is definitely a posibility for wife approval. we've discussed having dressing screens before. I have two love seats now facing each other that are perpendicular and centered to the entertainment center. I could put them behind each love seat. I'm assuming that would be the first reflection point. the screens would be about 15 to 16 ft. apart from each other. Also the screen to my right would somewhat cover up the 8.5 ft. opening.

I could also get drapes to cover up that opening. I could open or close them when needed.

As for the left wall, I can't change much. I just paid 10k for those shudders (throughout the house). I could have decorative drape accents on the outsides of each window that could match drapes put at the big opening to the room but that's about it.

mono-tubeleosis · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Jun 2006, 10:19 pm »

Quote from: Bob Jackson

Excellent ideas Bryan.
mono.. Are you having specific problems in the room, ie... bright highs, boomy bass?
Are the floors hardwood, tile, carpet ? If something hard, how about a thick area rug. Or mulitiple rugs due to large square footage. Nice cushy heavily padded chairs or sofa's ect..
Are the speakers the big heavy tower type? How about wheels if they're to big & heavy to drag out (when the family's gone and it's time to play with the volume knob)

BTW mono, I've got my goodies displayed on 'webs ...

Good question Bob. To be honest I don't really notice any big problems with the sound at all. But it's hard to say. It's not like I had my system in another room for comparison either. I'm sure though acoustical treatment would increase the listening experience. The bass might be a little boomy if anything, but I followed instructions with Audio Adire on placement of the sub for optimum sound and it seems to be fine. Highs and mids are glorious in my opinion.

I have carpeting, two heavy padded chairs with padded ottoman at the back wall right side corner. I have two heavily padded love seats with a coffee table between them perpendicular and centered to the entertainment center. The room was made as a living/dining room. But we have a large kitchen/nook and I opted to put in a pool table in the dining area parallel with the entertainment center by the back wall. I had custom lighting over the table. The lighting company put the recessed lights in the ceiling, one over each pocket. The room is my haven but it is the focal point of the house when you walk through the front door and has to be wife friendly. If you know what I mean.

The speakers are '45H x 9W x 15Deep (GR Research Paradox 3's) MTM config. I just ordered an MTMWW's kit from the same company two days ago to replace them (49x8x15). Do a search on 'Danny Richie' here and you can find pics of them. He just released the kit.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Jun 2006, 10:38 pm »

mono, let me say that I have some cool ideas now and then on various subjects, but there are professionals here that can help better than I. Bryan is one for sure. Check the link on his signature.

The following is IMHO, of course.

Those speakers wouldn't get moved around for no small reason at my house. Those are huge. Risk of damage (or lower back pain) is too great to be scootin' around for the heck of it.

The carpet and furniture sound like they're on your side. Bryans soffit idea is cool, but that might have to be presented to the wife carefully depending on her acceptance factor of audio (and ineviatable ongoing struggles / tweeks / cash flow / modding of the house, ect....) in general. Some indirect lighting above that soffit would have a nice warm glow in the room in the evening (#1 selling point to the Mrs.)

The drapes and screens would be the #1 ideas. They're not permanent, and fairly inexpensive to install (vs. a soffit)

Bob

Carlman · « **Reply #6 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 01:07 am »

Quote from: bpape

After all of that, think about building something similar to a pair of Japanese dressing screens - but with absorbtion in them. These can covered with a nice ornamental (but open) fabric and have a nicely stained wooden frame. A pair of these along the side walls at the reflection points can look very nice and also provide the reflection control and general decay time control you need.
...

Something like this?
From inside the soundroom:

From the outside:

The screen is a standard oriental screen with a 'constrained layer' of foam applied, which was covered by fabric my wife picked out at the fabric store.

It works very well... I've orded a pair of french doors to replace the screen... if you were local I'd let you borrow what i have and see if it'll work for you.... It wasn't hard to make... a few yards of fabric, a staple gun, and a visit to foambymail were all it took... and not too pricey... the screen was $100 shipped IIRC. The other stuff wasn't more than that... so maybe 150 for everything.

-C

mono-tubeleosis · « **Reply #7 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 03:05 am »

Quote from: Carlman

Something like this?
From inside the soundroom:

From the outside:

The screen is a standard oriental screen with a 'constrained layer' of foam applied, which was covered by fabric my wife picked out at the fabric store.

It works very well... I've orded a pair of french doors to replace the screen... if you were local I'd let you borrow what i have and s ...

Thanks Carl. I spent a great deal of the afternoon trying to correct and test what Bryan told me would be some of my worst spots. I used a heavy comforter to cover up the 8.5 ft. opening as well as the 3 ft. opening along the back wall. I did hear a difference. Especially in the bass. with the openings covered up the bass was tighter/less boomy. The highs were not as bright either. I wasn't sure if the bass improving might have been the reason for the improvement in the highs or what but the room overall was more dead sounding. it was subtle for the most part but definitely better with the openings closed.

I listened to the same track over and over with the settings the same. I actually felt covering up the smaller opening at the back wall made a bigger difference than covering up the larger opening at the right. That didn't make sense to me but it did. I couldn't say If my soundstage improved any but the imaging did improve in my opinion. But I think that is because of the less boomy bass getting out of the way.

Next test is my first reflection point with dummy dressing screens

JLM · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 09:45 am »

Realtraps sells acoustical soffit.

Would wifey miss 9 feet from one side of the room? (That would get you much closer to reducing standing waves.)

Why do people want those huge, IMO ridiculous, "entertainment" centers? For the price of expensive "entertainment" center (they don't entertain me) you could get a nice, big flat panel TV. And then get your speakers out from the "caves" they're in.

bpape · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 02:29 pm »

Yes. That's the kind of dressing screen I was referring to. If you watch the cloth covering and put a hard side on the side (under the fabric) that is facing outside the room and something like 703 on the other side (again - under the fabric), that will help create some symmetry.

I would then do another pair of them for maybe behind the speakers or at the reflections (likely not all of them will be at the windows/opening)

For the soffit, I was considering something like J was identifying from Real Traps. You can certainly purchase them pre-made from Ethan. Or, you can DIY your own by just doing framing, filling with absorbtion, and covering only with cloth instead of with drywall.

I don't know that you'd need the membrane on them as the room you have would likely easily support the additional HF absorbtion - especially if it's all concentrated at the ceiling level. The rest that is at ear level would be from the screens and curtains.

Bryan

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 02:41 pm »

mono-tubes,

> I need some help finding the least obtrusive looking acoustic treatment I can find. It has to integrate into the room design with fabrics that are color coordinated to the room etc. Smaller is better. <

I can't offer more than a little amusement. Though I never understood why huge tower speakers and a big rack stuffed with gear "looks okay" but acoustic panels do not. None the less, here is my best suggestion: Show your wife the photos of my living room below. Then by comparison anything you put in your room will seem much less intrusive.

--Ethan

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 02:56 pm »

Quote from: Ethan Winer

mono-tubes,

> I need some help finding the least obtrusive looking acoustic treatment I can find. It has to integrate into the room design with fabrics that are color coordinated to the room etc. Smaller is better. <

I can't offer more than a little amusement. Though I never understood why huge tower speakers and a big rack stuffed with gear "looks okay" but acoustic panels do not. ...

Simple... they are accepted pieces of furniture. If you stick a welding machine that is attractively finished in your living space it will look out of place. It is more about social norms than about the appearance of the product.

95bcwh · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 03:38 pm »

Quote from: Ethan Winer

mono-tubes,
Show your wife the photos of my living room below. Then by comparison ...

Mono-tubes,
Show your wife my "listening laboratory", let her know that there're more tolerant wives out there..

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 03:49 pm »

Ethan....Nice room !! What are it's dimensions ? Thanks !!

Chris[/list:u]

JLM · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 04:57 pm »

Ethan,

You may have become accustomed to the look of your panels and your room, but wifey laughed first, then said "No Way will I let you do that to My Living Room." IMO the panels hanging from the ceiling and wall/ceiling corners is a look that only an male audiophile could love.

mono-tubeleosis · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 07:04 pm »

Quote from: JLM

Realtraps sells acoustical soffit.

Would wifey miss 9 feet from one side of the room? (That would get you much closer to reducing standing waves.)

Why do people want those huge, IMO ridiculous, "entertainment" centers? For the price of expensive "entertainment" center (they don't entertain me) you could get a nice, big flat panel TV. And then get your speakers out from the "caves" they're in.

It's a trade-off. I get electronics, she gets everything else. Really though she supports me on this stuff . In return I do what I can to keep the house looking like a house and not an electrical engineering department.

To be honest I want the room to look good as well as functional.

mono-tubeleosis · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Jun 2006, 08:34 pm »

Quote from: Ethan Winer

mono-tubes,

> I need some help finding the least obtrusive looking acoustic treatment I can find. It has to integrate into the room design with fabrics that are color coordinated to the room etc. Smaller is better. <

I can't offer more than a little amusement. Though I never understood why huge tower speakers and a big rack stuffed with gear "looks okay" but acoustic panels do not. None the less, here is my best suggestion: Show your wife the photos of my living room below. Then by comparison ...

As an Art Director working with engineers for many years I've never seen an engineer who didn't think their creations didn't look beautiful. But I'm sure that most of them can appreciate what a good industrial designer can do with their wonderful ideas to make them much more appealing.

Good design with functionality IMHO is very important. As it applies to me and Wifey "if it don't look good, it ain't goin in that room!"

I own a printing and graphic design company here in Vegas and I have made 3-dimensional like pictures to hang in the offices of several of the high rise projects going up here in town. What we did was take black gator board (about the size of your panels Ethan) and attach them to the wall. Then we would print one of their photo's and mount it to another black gator board which was smaller than the gator board attached to the wall. The smaller board was then layed on top of the larger board with 4 inches spacers behind it. The larger board was 4 inches wider on all sides than the smaller board with the mounted picture on it making it looked framed. The spacers behind the smaller board gave it a 3-D look to the whole thing and the overall look was very impressive for a reasonable price.

I could do the same thing here. I could attach molding to the wall in a rectangle 4 inches bigger on all sides than my acoustic panel. Then I could paint the inside of the rectangle an accent color to what I have in that room. Then I could place the panel inside the rectangle raised from the wall with a decorative fabric. I would put one on each side of the entertainment center. Are you listening 95? I could even put lighting behind the panels. Now that is what I mean about design with functionality.

Wouldn't that at least solve the front wall?

Glenn K · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Jun 2006, 01:38 pm »

>I once got some advice from someone in the industry that if I just made triangular panels for the corners up at the ceiling I could improve acoustics dramatically. If anyone has done that and has pics I would appreciate seeing or hearing about it. Of course any and all suggestions on anything else would be great.<

something like this?

Glenn

mono-tubeleosis · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Jun 2006, 03:40 pm »

Quote from: Glenn K

>I once got some advice from someone in the industry that if I just made triangular panels for the corners up at the ceiling I could improve acoustics dramatically. If anyone has done that and has pics I would appreciate seeing or hearing about it. Of course any and all suggestions on anything else would be great.<

something like this?

Glenn

Thanks for the pics. Actually I think what they meant was more like a triangle in each corner hanging from the ceiling. The padded side would face downward to the floor.

It was Danny Richie and Gary Dodd. I may have mis-understood them though. I know I could ask them again, but I was trying to avoid bothering them about it since they are pretty busy these days.

brj · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Jun 2006, 03:53 pm »

You are probably thinking of the Eighth Nerve Response series "Corner" or the Adapt series "Triangle".