First reflections from side wall and floor

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abomwell

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First reflections from side wall and floor
« on: 3 Oct 2021, 01:36 pm »
Recently I've experimented, based on suggestions from Robert Greene of The Absolute Sound, with deflecting vs.absorbing the first wall and floor bounce reflections. I think the results are an improvement in clarity and perhaps "sound stage" localization of instruments. The idea is to place a solid panel on the side wall at the reflection point angled in such a manner as to deflect the sound towards the rear of the room instead of towards the listening position. The result is a much later arrival time of that reflection.

The floor bounce from the tweeter and mid-driver is deflected back towards the speakers by placing a vertical surface between the floor reflection point and the listening chair. I use a pair of ottomans. The ottomans should be soft or covered with padding to prevent edge refraction. Research studies have indicated the floor bounce is more significant than side wall reflections. The reflection point on the walls and floor can be found using a small mirror. Has anyone experimented with this?

ric

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #1 on: 3 Oct 2021, 02:09 pm »
I have the original M3TS, but my understanding is that Clayton's "controlled directivity" is designed to minimize room interactions, compared to box (and other) speakers. This should mean that the signal coming from the speaker is (of course) more direct to the listener's ears and that by minimizing room interactions one hears the speakers and not the room.
BUT! Prior to getting OB I had been using DIY Shakti Hallographs because the sound was more pleasing than without them. These are a type of room lens that does deal with what you're talking about--reflections and whether they can be pleasing to the ear, or overkill. In my case, I am still using the Hallographs with OB--BUT, the recording will dictate whether they are toed in or out (or even straight) because mike placements in recordings vary and therefore stereo imaging/spaciousness will vary.
   The bottom line is to do whatever you can that sounds best to your ears. Experiment, and check out Dennis Foley's Acoustic Fields videos on YouTube for room interactions. His is a no nonsense approach that will have you rethinking the room as a huge part of the listening equation.

catluck

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #2 on: 3 Oct 2021, 02:24 pm »
After some break-in time, I asked my wife to hold a mirror and walk along the closest sidewall at the right speak. The left is approx. 7' from the sidewall so I'm not concerned about reflections (as they arrive too late in time to be consequential).  After locating the speak's reflection in the mirror I placed diffusor panels on the wall/fireplace facade.  Listening carefully, I'll be damned if I could hear any difference. Eyes closed, listening to familiar and well recorded material, I just couldn't determine if localization and/or tone improved. It could be that the speaks are sufficiently distant from the sidewalls that reflections are no longer a material consideration.  As to floor bounce, a large area rug does seem to ameliorate the problem. Although, with wood floors the real issue seemed to be a slap-echo kind of phenomenon.  The rug eliminates this issue. I suspect Clayton's controlled dispersion may be helpful in the sidewall domain.  My most significant problem seems the depth of sound field.  Problematically,  I have a 42" flat screen sitting at/above tweet level but, at least, it's 36" behind the plane of the speaks. I DID note that moving the flat screen back about 4" seemed to deepen the sound field and really seemed to facilitate the speaks "disappearance."  Probably going to remove the sidewall diffusor panels as my femme isn't thrilled with their appearance. Finally, it could also be that the room, at 19'W x 17'D x 8'H is large enough that reflections arrive too late in time to be significant.  I don't know.... But, despite the confusion and uncertainty I sure do enjoy these speaks.  Every morning.

Tangram

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #3 on: 3 Oct 2021, 03:55 pm »
If you want to engage in an 'immersive" listening session (as opposed to casual listening), consider covering the TV with a heavy blanket while doing so.

You bring up an important point though. Compared to box speakers, the Spatials greatly reduce room effects on sound presentation, as least in my room. Clayton alludes to this on occasion but it is a major selling point for audiophiles who listen in shared spaces where they can't hang absorbers and diffusers wherever they want.

Wayner

Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #4 on: 3 Oct 2021, 04:25 pm »
You forgot the ceiling.

catluck

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #5 on: 5 Oct 2021, 01:30 pm »
Wayner, you're right in "Your forgot the ceiling."  However, I'm happy to report that I'm not yet engaged in divorce proceedings.  Panels on the ceiling would almost certainly result in me being served with papers.  And, as the ceiling is 5' above the tweets I'm wondering at the time involved in reflections and whether they arrive too late to be significant.  I think the suggestion of covering the flat-screen TV is about as far as I can go. I've actually done that for years and it may be of some utility (and is easily restored after listening).  I would never claim to optimized the room but, at this point, it is far beyond "listenable" and well into enormously engaging.  That probably won't last long.... We all  know how it goes..

Mr. Big

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #6 on: 5 Oct 2021, 02:32 pm »
If your imaging and sound stage depth then nothing should be between the speakers, only an amp on the amp stand and the rest clear. I see photos of people buying big $$$ speakers and all around the speakers, there are TVs, stands, even chairs, and couches. No front wall acoustic panels etc. To me, why spend money to really never get to hear what you paid for, then complain the speakers sound bright and so on. It is not always the speaker but the lack of care in setting up your room so the speaker is allowed to do what it was designed to do, so do the best you can. You will be surprised how good they sound and no need for band-aids tweaks to try to alter the sound to be more pleasing, anything you put under gear or on top you are just trading one set on resonances for another. You can put 4 firm apples say under a preamp and the sound will change. Anything you add will change the sound even the stand you sit sour gear on, it makes me laugh when I hear this amp or speaker, etc. make you hear the way the recording was intended, that is utter BS, only time you hear it as intended was in the recording studio if recorded as a group in one room or concert hall. With today's mixing and digital technology. where tracks are laid down anywhere in the world, and put together later by the producer, then you only would hear his idea of the sound he wanted in the mixing room/control booth no longer a group of people sitting in a studio working on the sound they want. Sad if you think about it.   

I learned to do room setup the best you can for a given room and then tweak toe-in and spacing and some speakers in a given room will sound much better closer together than trying to spread them far apart, for a given room the goal should be to try to trick yourself into feeling you are hearing a real band with body playing before you.
« Last Edit: 16 Oct 2021, 04:34 pm by Mr. Big »

Tangram

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #7 on: 5 Oct 2021, 04:01 pm »
If your imaging and sound stage depth then nothing should be between the speakers, only an amp on the amp stand and the rest clear. I see photos of people buying big $$$ speakers and all around the speakers, there are TVs, stands, even chairs, and couches. No front wall acoustic panels etc. To me, why spend money to really never get to hear what you paid for, then complain the speakers sound bright and so on. It is not always the speaker but the lack of care in setting up your room so the speaker is allowed to do what it was designed to do, so do the best you can. You will be surprised how good they sound and no need for band-aids tweaks to try to alter the sound to be more pleasing, anything you are under gear or on top you are just trading one set on resonances for another. You can put 4 firm apples say under a preamp and the sound will change. I learned to do room setup the best you can for a given room and then tweak toe-in and spacing and some speakers in a given room will sound much better closer together than trying to spread them far apart, for a given room the goal should be to try to trick yourself into feeling you are hearing a real band with body playing before you.

Here's my room, or at least part of it. The absorbers and bass traps are out of the photo. M3s still "bright". Room is a big part of the equation, but compared to box speakers, the Spatials are a dream.




abomwell

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #8 on: 5 Oct 2021, 04:12 pm »
The back of your chair isn't above your ears is it?

jtcf

Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #9 on: 5 Oct 2021, 04:27 pm »
Recently I've experimented, based on suggestions from Robert Greene of The Absolute Sound, with deflecting vs.absorbing the first wall and floor bounce reflections. I think the results are an improvement in clarity and perhaps "sound stage" localization of instruments. The idea is to place a solid panel on the side wall at the reflection point angled in such a manner as to deflect the sound towards the rear of the room instead of towards the listening position. The result is a much later arrival time of that reflection.

The floor bounce from the tweeter and mid-driver is deflected back towards the speakers by placing a vertical surface between the floor reflection point and the listening chair. I use a pair of ottomans. The ottomans should be soft or covered with padding to prevent edge refraction. Research studies have indicated the floor bounce is more significant than side wall reflections. The reflection point on the walls and floor can be found using a small mirror. Has anyone experimented with this?
That's very interesting. I need to try that.Later arrival time is a good thing

Tangram

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #10 on: 5 Oct 2021, 11:03 pm »
The back of your chair isn't above your ears is it?

No. I am 6’2”. Although the chair is an Ekornes Stressless, I purchased the Admiral model which has an adjustable headrest. I have it down and the top is a good couple of inches below my ears.

radarnyc

Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #11 on: 6 Oct 2021, 09:36 pm »
Tangram /// where did you get that diffusion panel?

Tangram

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #12 on: 6 Oct 2021, 11:02 pm »
They are product made by a company called Vicoustics. From Portugal, but widely available in North America.

doggie

Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #13 on: 7 Oct 2021, 11:44 am »
The Cable Company carries Vicoustics but they seem a bit pricy, even without shipping, as compared to other well established US vendors.

If you are in the US try GIK or Real Traps.

Amazon carries UA-Acoustics which look good but one always needs to consider if they are actually well engineered or just "look" like they are!

Mr. Big

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Tangram

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #15 on: 7 Oct 2021, 02:05 pm »
The Cable Company carries Vicoustics but they seem a bit pricy, even without shipping, as compared to other well established US vendors.

If you are in the US try GIK or Real Traps.

Amazon carries UA-Acoustics which look good but one always needs to consider if they are actually well engineered or just "look" like they are!

Yes, they are pricey. I avoided the shipping cost by getting my local store to order them in for me. These are a serious piece of kit. Skyline diffusers, especially when made from wood, are very expensive (and heavy) in comparison. Yes, people make their own but that would be a labor of love to do it properly. Does GIK make a proper skyline diffuser? I don't see any on the website.

A friend of mine is a serious audiophile with very discerning ears. Pushing 60, he has noted (as many others have, even though it doesn't make sense based on the science) that as he ages, he has become more sensitive to higher frequencies. I suspect some of that sensitivity is simply a function of becoming a better listener. However, after buying a 6-pack of Vicoustic DC-2s, he was so pleased with the taming of some edgy high that he rethought his room acoustics and added another 6. Not sure if he removed any absorption at the same time.

Said friend is coming over for a listen today, now that the M3s have enough hours on them. I'm not going to bias him in any way. I'll just let him describe to me what he is hearing. I really trust this guy's ears so I am very much looking forward to "hearing" what he has to say.


Tyson

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #16 on: 7 Oct 2021, 03:18 pm »
Some people love OB and some people love box speakers.  I find that the people that love OB are really taken with their neutrality, detail and great (deep) soundstage.  People that love box speakers often feel underwhelmed when first listening to OB speakers.  They think things like "Where did the bass go?" and "Why does the sound seem so far away".  So they dislike the very things that make OB speakers special. 

That's not 'right or wrong', its simply preference.  Just something to keep in mind when you have other audiophiles over to listen.  Some will be blown away and some will be underwhelmed, at least that's been my experience.

Tangram

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #17 on: 7 Oct 2021, 03:40 pm »
Some people love OB and some people love box speakers.  I find that the people that love OB are really taken with their neutrality, detail and great (deep) soundstage.  People that love box speakers often feel underwhelmed when first listening to OB speakers.  They think things like "Where did the bass go?" and "Why does the sound seem so far away".  So they dislike the very things that make OB speakers special. 

That's not 'right or wrong', its simply preference.  Just something to keep in mind when you have other audiophiles over to listen.  Some will be blown away and some will be underwhelmed, at least that's been my experience.

Good advice. People see the twin 15" woofers and immediately expect room-shaking bass.  My friend has a very refreshing approach to the hobby. Although he is constantly evaluating the sound of his system, he focuses mostly on room treatments. He hasn't changed a piece of gear in more than six years, which is several lifetimes in audiophile years. He has stuck with a pair of Dynaudio C1 Platinums for even longer than that. Despite having a dedicated listening room of decent size, he has always found that the bass from the C1s (which, admittedly, has always been a standout feature of those standmounts) is enough that he doesn't use subs. Uses a big Pass Labs X250.5 and a Zesto preamp to get them singing. His one audiophile "vice" is constant tube rolling.

I'm comfortable that he "gets it" and will be looking for a balanced presentation, lack of boxiness, and detailed bass that is visceral but not overly so. I'll let you know his thoughts.

Tangram

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #18 on: 13 Oct 2021, 04:39 pm »
Good advice. People see the twin 15" woofers and immediately expect room-shaking bass.  My friend has a very refreshing approach to the hobby. Although he is constantly evaluating the sound of his system, he focuses mostly on room treatments. He hasn't changed a piece of gear in more than six years, which is several lifetimes in audiophile years. He has stuck with a pair of Dynaudio C1 Platinums for even longer than that. Despite having a dedicated listening room of decent size, he has always found that the bass from the C1s (which, admittedly, has always been a standout feature of those standmounts) is enough that he doesn't use subs. Uses a big Pass Labs X250.5 and a Zesto preamp to get them singing. His one audiophile "vice" is constant tube rolling.

I'm comfortable that he "gets it" and will be looking for a balanced presentation, lack of boxiness, and detailed bass that is visceral but not overly so. I'll let you know his thoughts.

Well, I had my audiophile buddy over last week to a listen and...he was very non-committal. He did suggest I make the listening triangle larger, which I have done (about 8' triangle now) and which works fine but I am just as happy with a quasi-nearfield setup (about 6.5' triangle). Beyond that, we listened to some great tunes but he basically said nothing except for that one comment.

I have another guy coming over in a couple of weeks, but I don't know much about his system of tastes. Ultimately, what matters is that we, the owners, like the sound, although I try to keep an open mind and value others' opinions because I am just as susceptible to bias as the next guy.

Tyson

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Re: First reflections from side wall and floor
« Reply #19 on: 13 Oct 2021, 05:45 pm »
I've had people over that listened to my $20k (plus) speakers downstairs, the fully planar magnetic, state of the art OB speakers with reference level servo OB bass and.... they were underwhelmed.  I could see it in their faces, in their reactions and their attempts to be 'nice' about it.  But it was clear they were not blown away.

On the other hand, I've had other people over and they were absolutely blown away.  Some became downright giddy with how great the sound was. 

Same setup, same speakers, same everything.  Only difference was the listener.  Like I said, we all have our preferences and really great OB's will re-define how great sound can be for some listeners and will be a big 'meh' for others.  Quality of the system didn't change, only the preferences of that particularly listener was different.