M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2

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Skilly

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #20 on: 22 Sep 2021, 01:54 am »
Hobs, you are to be admired with your attempts to keep folks informed and alerted to anticipated and unanticipated delays. I know for myself, and others, that we are excited about future projects. I have been asking about the LGK 2.0's for quite some time. We are informed that the drivers are ordered but then do not meet the parameters. Ok, that happens. Worldwide pandemic comes upsetting all aspects of production and shipping. Ok, that happens. The drivers produce new requirements for the box needing new designs for the speaker box including the port size and maybe location. Well that is news. One wonders why The issues of uncertainty could not be disclosed sooner. How hard is it to say, "Guys, I do not know when the production will meet my specs and I can not design a box until I have a final, fully approved Driver that I know can meets my quality standards." and "I hope to have more answers by September 30th and If I do not, I will let you know another date to target." I feel like we are being treated like Apple customers, with the perpetual tease. More recently we have the tease on the battery powered class D amplifier.  No details! Nada. No anticipated date. No details of the basis for the amp. No Chip set model identified. No form factor disclosed. No power source information that I have seen.
I just do not see the value of teasing information on a completely unobtainable item. 

Early B.

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #21 on: 22 Sep 2021, 02:37 am »
Hobs, you are to be admired with your attempts to keep folks informed and alerted to anticipated and unanticipated delays. I know for myself, and others, that we are excited about future projects. I have been asking about the LGK 2.0's for quite some time. We are informed that the drivers are ordered but then do not meet the parameters. Ok, that happens. Worldwide pandemic comes upsetting all aspects of production and shipping. Ok, that happens. The drivers produce new requirements for the box needing new designs for the speaker box including the port size and maybe location. Well that is news. One wonders why The issues of uncertainty could not be disclosed sooner. How hard is it to say, "Guys, I do not know when the production will meet my specs and I can not design a box until I have a final, fully approved Driver that I know can meets my quality standards." and "I hope to have more answers by September 30th and If I do not, I will let you know another date to target." I feel like we are being treated like Apple customers, with the perpetual tease. More recently we have the tease on the battery powered class D amplifier.  No details! Nada. No anticipated date. No details of the basis for the amp. No Chip set model identified. No form factor disclosed. No power source information that I have seen.
I just do not see the value of teasing information on a completely unobtainable item.

This is one of those, "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios. Customers demand to know what's in development. A company can either say nothing or say something, knowing full well that neither choice will be sufficient. For a small niche company that relies heavily on this forum, YouTube, and word-of-mouth, the customer relationship is far more intimate than Apple or any other major retailer. Personally, I would rather hear tidbits of information than nothing at all. For instance, I wasn't aware until recently that GR Research was working on an amp. Battery-powered? Yeah, I'm intrigued.
 

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #22 on: 22 Sep 2021, 04:12 am »
Why haven't you heard more about things? Esp those still in development?

I get your frustrations, but I mean think about it..
Things happen, often outside of a person or business's control.

You plan a nice vacation, then BAM! You get a JURY SUMMONS for the day of your flight/cruise..
Look at how often say games/movies will change from their teaser trailers vs final release.

And with how often things have fallen into chaos recently, esp with shortages and slowdowns world wide. Of not only parts, but also labor, transportation and the maintenance required to try to keep the machine moving under the stress.

Things that used to take weeks, now takes months, and have gone up exponentially in cost, for worse service.
We were expecting the NQ & M165/16 woofers to arrive this week, but that was bumped back by at least another week and a half last minute.

I know a lot of people are waiting to get their NX kits that have basically been "unavailable" for over a year. We were lucky to get the small number we did back in June. But weve still got several people waiting that have paid, or are waiting to pay.

It sucks, but we're as the mercy of our manufacturers and they're at the mercy of their suppliers. Etc.

As for things in development, there's a long process of "build, test, change, repeat" that happens in an ongoing cycle some changes are iterative and small. Others are large and may affect production times, performance or even kill a project.

For instance, we're having a new batch of T26-SG tweeters made, but first they need to make sure they can get it right before they just produce. We got in a sample, and it didnt meet our specifications.
The area from 14-20k Hz was down by 3-4dB vs the original, as well as terminals that are too short and will interfere with mounting.

Now we have to wait for the changes that need to be made in order to fix that issue, and it may be another month before we get another sample.

Sure, it's unfortunate that the new drivers are different from the original, but that's why these are a 2.0 model, and not the same 1.0 driver, and seeing the response of the new drivers, they definitely outclass the original LGKs.

Its the same reason we haven't seen a return of the Super Mini or Line Force. We haven't had much luck getting an alternative to find a direct replacement. So for now, we're working with another company to create a different driver to replace it altogether..

It's a shame, but what can we do about it?
And do you *really* want to hear about it every time we have to go back to the drawing board on something?
We'd definitely like to keep that to ourselves and keep the process going behind the scenes, to make sure we get it done right once it's ready to go and we have a way to show them off.

We'll have more info on the amps once we know the full batch of 29 are ready to go. What's the point of spilling all the beans if we can't even sell them yet?

We had a batch of them made to verify they work as intended, and recently approved the production of the remaining amps.
We'll have more info on them soon enough, but its hard to know give estimate when we dont have solid dates from the manufacturer, shipper, etc.

It's often better to just say nothing, with some teases now and then when things are looking good, on a project then give a proper update once we actually have something interesting to report.

I'm sorry if this is disappointing to hear, but we're doing the best we can under the circumstances, and we'll give more concrete information once we know more.

Skilly

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #23 on: 22 Sep 2021, 03:16 pm »
Its all about the tease. There may or may not ever be a product. Meanwhile, the Cables are selling well whilst the real products of interest are due to be shipped, "maybe next week." I think the reason the tease exists is because the frustration people are feeling, which again, no one is saying is your fault, is starting to drive customers to look elsewhere. If you got no product to sell to folks, then the reason is irrelevant. Is it bad management or just bad luck? My personal opinion it is the bad luck. As a consumer, It does not matter, because I can not get the item being teased anyway.

Imagine Danny says, he's got a new time machine. He is really excited about it, but, the manufacturer is having trouble meeting his specs. There is no point in telling you anything about the new time machine until its available right? He says things like, "its a real game changer." and I think your going to like it." Should people know that it requires Unicorn dust to power, or only travels forwards in time? The size is similar to that of a minivan?

   

Tyson

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #24 on: 22 Sep 2021, 03:37 pm »
So what is your solution, Skilly?  How do you think things should change, specifically?

Early B.

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #25 on: 22 Sep 2021, 04:42 pm »
So what is your solution, Skilly?  How do you think things should change, specifically?

Tyson -- Skilly answered this question by stating that manufacturers shouldn't say anything until the item is available. However, if consumers demand to know what's in the pipeline and the manufacturer doesn't respond, that's not good customer service. The answer is somewhere in the middle which is precisely what Hobbs described in great detail above. 

Those of us who have been around long enough are well aware of the challenges and pitfalls of launching new products, especially when the parts and assembly are overseas because guys like Danny and Hobbs tell us. This is part of the process of creating more informed customers and we appreciate what they're willing to share.
 

Skilly

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #26 on: 22 Sep 2021, 05:02 pm »
Tyson,

I am glad you asked. I have a couple ideas that might be helpful. These ideas are only interested in increasing transparency. I would add Two (2) new sticky categories in this forum. Both categories would be what I describe as long term temporary, until production resumes to normal levels, assuming it might resume one day to Pre-Covid rates. One category would be "Production updates on drivers and inventory". Clearly, you are not going to put the inventory on the forum. It could be a weekly or even bi-weekly post from Danny or his staff reflecting the dates he hopes to have shipments on what items. Perhaps there could be a brief statement about a long term date if it is known, but Here is the Key, On a calendar, of his keeping Danny (or his staff) makes a note to follow up with the post. Rather than having pests like me keep asking questions of making snide remarks, the answers could be right there, whether you like them or not. That way no one needs to go hunting through posts for info, unless that is what you want them to do for some sadistic reason.

The Second Sticky is label: "the Latest Noise" which contain info on things The Danny is excited about making happen. IN a perfect world Danny can spread some excitement and anticipation without Rumor or unverified details being spread. My example, Danny Posts, something like this, "I am working with two other industry pros on a battery powered D class Amp. I can not say much about it as the prototype is far from being approved, or finalized. Yes, I gave one to Ron at New Record Day for review, but I would not let him show the back of it for more than 1 second."  Such a message would be sure to cause a stir and prompt many threads. If there is a new tech/ new driver/ section, one does not have to guess where the next actual item of news will come from.

Tyson

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #27 on: 22 Sep 2021, 05:07 pm »
I think those are good ideas. 

subsonic1050

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #28 on: 22 Sep 2021, 06:03 pm »
I see this from both sides for sure. I do believe that Danny and the rest of the crew over at GR Research have been doing what they can in a difficult situation. It isn't just GR Research who are having these kinds of supply issues, it's literally everyone in every industry.

However, I can't say that I personally haven't been frustrated with things at GR Research. When I placed an order for 2 sets of NX-Treme's that was back in early May. When I called to place my order I originally spoke with Danny who told me that a shipment of drivers was coming in June. I asked him whether I should place the order on the website or over the phone - he said over the phone was best, so that's what I did. I had to call back because Danny had someone else on the line, and when I called back to place the order I spoke with Killian. When I spoke with him and placed the order I asked when I'd receive the flat packs for the NX-Treme's. He told me they'd probably ship out by the end of the week. That was 4.5 months ago. I just got the first flat pack a couple of weeks ago and I just got an email from Jay that the 2nd one will ship out really soon. That isn't an issue with Jay, that is communication within GR Research. Apparently, some of the easier models DO ship out very quickly, but the big stuff like the Otica's, and in particular, the NX-Treme's take time. That is one example of massively overpromising and under-delivering. The second example is with regards to the drivers. When I placed my order there was zero concern about getting my components in June. We get an update that the drivers have arrived, but now, somehow my order is nowhere near the top and all of the drivers are gone before my order is fulfilled. Then I'm told it will be August, and now, obviously it will be at least sometime in October before I get my parts. Oh, and in the meantime there was a several hundred dollar price increase that apparently I'm now expected to pay even though I placed my order before the price change and was told that I'd have the components in a month.

Look, I'm a big fan of GR Research. This year I've built 2 sets of triple servo subs, a pair of X-Statiks, and by years end I'll have built 2 sets of NX-treme's and I also plan on ordering one of the new LGK 2.0's for  my desktop. I like what they're doing, but there has been a pattern of disappointment when it comes to setting expectations. I think there is room for improvement in the communication with the customer and setting up realistic expectations. I realize that there are also a lot of things out of their control, but it would have been easy for them to tell me it was going to be months before I got my flat packs, and also they could have looked at their orders and told me straight away that my order wouldn't be fulfilled with the drivers they were expecting in June. What I believed would be a month of wait time will in fact be closer to half a year.

In the end I put most of these things down to growing pains. GR Research has increased their volume I believe around 400% over last year at the same time as supply became an issue. I don't believe any of this was intentional and I believe they're doing their best. I'm just pointing out that I can relate to some frustrations that show up here on the forum.

RonP

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Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #29 on: 22 Sep 2021, 06:06 pm »
Hobbs

I think you've been do a good job on the updates. The right balance between silence and news.

subsonic1050

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #30 on: 22 Sep 2021, 08:07 pm »
Hobbs

I think you've been do a good job on the updates. The right balance between silence and news.

I agree that Hobbs' updates have been a godsend. Also, I have no issue whatsoever with them teasing new products even if they won't be available for some time - in fact, I quite enjoy it.

wgraft5

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Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #31 on: 23 Sep 2021, 12:19 am »
They are the 8" Servo subs used to make the U frame speaker stands



We're also looking at using then in a future NX series design.

The 8" sub stand. The 10w amp. Power cord. Speaker cables. NX Studios OR X-Statics.  So many things to want. lol

mlundy57

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Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #32 on: 23 Sep 2021, 12:27 am »
I agree that Hobbs' updates have been a godsend. Also, I have no issue whatsoever with them teasing new products even if they won't be available for some time - in fact, I quite enjoy it.

I don't see it as teasing. R&D for a new product usually takes two or more years even without product shortages and constant shipping delays. PS Audio has been trying to bring a speaker to market for 5 years and they are still working on it.

When BG was bought out by Christie Digital, it took 2 years for Danny to get a satisfactory replacement designed and produced and this was pre-pandemic. Another example are the NX-Oticas. These took a few years to become available and went through a number of redesigns.  When Danny first started talking about them, the NX OB midrange drivers were not part of the discussion because they didn't exist. Once he got the NX OB drivers he redesigned the 'Oticas to use them instead of M165 drivers.

I think one reason why it feels so long is that due to the nature of this forum we get to watch a good part of the development cycle in real time.

While delays are frustrating sometimes, it helps to keep things in perspective and not take it personally.




mlundy57

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Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #33 on: 23 Sep 2021, 12:33 am »

The 8" sub stand. The 10w amp. Power cord. Speaker cables. NX Studios OR X-Statics.  So many things to want. lol

8" sub stands for the Studio Monitors, absolutely. With X-Statiks, nah. Go with 12" drivers in an H-Frame with A370 amps  :thumb:

subsonic1050

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #34 on: 23 Sep 2021, 12:54 am »
I don't see it as teasing. R&D for a new product usually takes two or more years even without product shortages and constant shipping delays. PS Audio has been trying to bring a speaker to market for 5 years and they are still working on it.

When BG was bought out by Christie Digital, it took 2 years for Danny to get a satisfactory replacement designed and produced and this was pre-pandemic. Another example are the NX-Oticas. These took a few years to become available and went through a number of redesigns.  When Danny first started talking about them, the NX OB midrange drivers were not part of the discussion because they didn't exist. Once he got the NX OB drivers he redesigned the 'Oticas to use them instead of M165 drivers.

I think one reason why it feels so long is that due to the nature of this forum we get to watch a good part of the development cycle in real time.

While delays are frustrating sometimes, it helps to keep things in perspective and not take it personally.

I agree Mike - and I do not take it personally. I hope it's clear from my post that I don't have any issues with GR Research. If I did, my relative and I wouldn't have spent the equivalent of a new car with them by the end of the year. I like the company, and I like what they're doing. Still, as with any growing business customer feedback is valuable. In my case, while I'm overall very pleased - there is room for improvement. That improvement comes not from controlling things like manufacturers, overseas shipping, etc - which can't be controlled - but by setting realistic customer expectations. There were a few times where I was simply given bad information - not related to any outside source - which caused me to wait many months longer than expected. I think that is constructive feedback for a company to take to heart and try to improve upon in the future.

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #35 on: 23 Sep 2021, 01:06 am »
8" sub stands for the Studio Monitors, absolutely. With X-Statiks, nah. Go with 12" drivers in an H-Frame with A370 amps  :thumb:

I mean.. that's why I had bought them, and they're just about finished!  :thumb:

Just one more speaker to go!  :D



I have used them with the X-Statiks and am currently using them with the N-3s and they work well enough, but a pair of dual 12s would be ideal.

corndog71

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Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #36 on: 23 Sep 2021, 01:25 am »
I can understand the frustration.  When Danny came out with the OB subs they were the bottom half of the Super V which used an expensive 12” coax on top.  I couldn’t afford them for years and of course as soon as I could, they became unavailable.

Then came the Serenity Super 7’s.  An awesome design I could never afford at the retail price.  But B&G got sold and drivers dried up.  A handful were made but they were still more than I could afford.  The design was essentially dead.

Thankfully, the OB subs were still available.  As soon as I could, I got them.

Fast forward a few years and for a very brief moment the Super 7 was back as a relatively affordable kit!  Then the Neo 10’s dried up.  But I got my Super 7’s! 

I guess what I’m trying to say is be patient.  You’ll either get what you want or you’ll get something else.  Danny’s kits are worth the wait.

wgraft5

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Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #37 on: 23 Sep 2021, 04:44 am »
I mean.. that's why I had bought them, and they're just about finished!  :thumb:

Just one more speaker to go!  :D



I have used them with the X-Statiks and am currently using them with the N-3s and they work well enough, but a pair of dual 12s would be ideal.
That looks cool. Mount the crossover to the sub stand, on back(towards the wall) and removable. Just under the NX's. Just a thought :thumb:

Early B.

Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #38 on: 23 Sep 2021, 12:24 pm »
That looks cool. Mount the crossover to the sub stand, on back(towards the wall) and removable. Just under the NX's. Just a thought :thumb:

That's what I was thinking -- unless you plan to enclose the crossovers at some point. Allows for shorter length wire, too.

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: M165+NQ delivery and other updates Pt2
« Reply #39 on: 23 Sep 2021, 01:26 pm »
That looks cool. Mount the crossover to the sub stand, on back(towards the wall) and removable. Just under the NX's. Just a thought :thumb:

Thats unfortunately not really possible.
The back side of these stands are open, and mounting the large crossover there would hurt their performance.



I'm probably gunna hunt down a pair of cheap speaker stands and fill them with kitty litter.