AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: BrandonB on 20 Dec 2022, 02:00 am
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I am starting to put together my system in my mind. I still haven't gotten my speakers but I know they are going to be NX Monitors or Something with the 8in NX Woofers coming out next year. I'm also thinking about getting an amp from Class D Audio that has the new NaG technology. I spoke to them thru and email and they are willing to upgrade the wiring, speaker terminals and RCA jacks. I just have to send the parts. Tyson owns one of there amps and he was the one who spoke about the upgrade and said it sounds great. Now I am looking for a preamp. I don't have much knowledge of preamps. I asked in another thread what people are using with their amps from Class D and some answered back with Black Ice, Freya+, and Don Sachs. So I would like to know what you are using with your GR Research speakers.
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I got one of these.
https://www.psaudio.com/products/gaincell-dac/ (https://www.psaudio.com/products/gaincell-dac/)
It is the best preamp I’ve ever owned.
The dac part of it is ok but pales compared to my Schiit Yggdrasil.
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You'll get 100 different responses and still be confused about which preamp to buy. If you're just starting out, get an integrated amp. If you become one of us (and I don't recommend it), then you'll eventually upgrade everything anyway, so start small and build your way up. Keep it simple and less expensive. Trust me -- you don't want to get into the whole cable debate because you can (and should!) easily spend just as much on a single pair of interconnects as the Class D amp on your list.
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Do you use vinyl or dac as a source, or both? It depends too if you need phono cart loading with your preamp.
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I got one of these.
https://www.psaudio.com/products/gaincell-dac/ (https://www.psaudio.com/products/gaincell-dac/)
It is the best preamp I’ve ever owned.
The dac part of it is ok but pales compared to my Schiit Yggdrasil.
Well that one is unavailable. It's one I like and could afford of course.
I am also on the hunt for a preamp.
Schiit has some options.
If you like diy, I am also looking at Tortuga ePot.V3 Max preamp controller & LDR stepped attenuator.
Also look at Odyssey Audio Candela Vacuum Tube Line Preamplifier or Tempest Line and Phono Preamplifier.
If Danny would resurrect the old DODD(?) battery powered preamp (like he talked about) would be cool, but it is unobtainium now.
Too many options and recommendations lol
Wayne in Oregon
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You'll get 100 different responses and still be confused about which preamp to buy. If you're just starting out, get an integrated amp. If you become one of us (and I don't recommend it), then you'll eventually upgrade everything anyway, so start small and build your way up. Keep it simple and less expensive. Trust me -- you don't want to get into the whole cable debate because you can (and should!) easily spend just as much on a single pair of interconnects as the Class D amp on your list.
Funny you say that about not recommending it. My wife's eyes where getting big when I was trying to explain some of this stuff, but I am trying to keep it less expensive and simple while getting a decent sounding system started.
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If you're trying to keep the price down, I'd get the Freya + with the 6SN7 tubes. You can find them used for a good price, like here:
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649928325-schiit-audio-freya-wmatched-quad-set-jj-tubes/
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First off, what is your budget for a new preamp? The Freya Plus is a great budget tube preamp but there are better options depending on your budget. AVA Hi Fi makes some nice preamps. Don Sachs makes a great tube preamp and can customize it for you.
I would also look on Audiogon for used preamps. If you can afford it and want to go solid state, check out this Parasound JC2 preamp. Read the reviews. It is a great preamp.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisb17e0-parasound-halo-jc-2-bp-stereo-preamplifier-jc2-remote-45700-solid-state
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First off, what is your budget for a new preamp? The Freya Plus is a great budget tube preamp but there are better options depending on your budget. AVA Hi Fi makes some nice preamps. Don Sachs makes a great tube preamp and can customize it for you.
I would also look on Audiogon for used preamps. If you can afford it and want to go solid state, check out this Parasound JC2 preamp. Read the reviews. It is a great preamp.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisb17e0-parasound-halo-jc-2-bp-stereo-preamplifier-jc2-remote-45700-solid-state
I'm still trying to figure out what I need to know what my budget is going to be. The Freya+ is in my budget but I don't know much about tubes. I have an idea about what they do but honestly I haven't listened to a tube amp or preamp.
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My two go to pre amps are the PS Audio BHK which is a tube preamp and the Benchmark LA4 which is solid state. Both are really good. But in all honesty, my BHK has been sent back to PS Audio 3 times for repair. So there is that. The nice thing about the Benchmark is you can trial it for 30 days if you’re in the US. I also have a Freya+ which is really good if you’re budget is lower.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-la4-line-amplifier
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That Benchmark is a beautiful piece. Both in looks and in measurements. It's an easy recommendation imho. And it would do the least to color the setup.
Like EarlyB said, you will get a 100 different responses. All are influenced by their room, speakers, set up, their musical tastes, and needs. Some are really old geezers, some are young geezers with less high frequency hearing loss.
Knowing what your budget is a good start. That immediately puts an impasse on what you can afford.
Good luck! Like EarlyB says, I don't envy "us" - but what a great ride it has been! :popcorn:
Best,
Anand.
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I would agree, that a Integrated Amp would be a better/more affordable choice to start off with.
I believe Danny's speakers are efficient enough to use with tube equipment. Hi efficient speakers are a must in this game.
Once I put tubes into my system I was hooked, way less listing fatigue, and more holographic presentation.
35 watts are plenty for most Hi efficient speakers (90+).
For an Integrated amp a budget of $1,500 to $3,000 would be about right (IMO).
Maybe a used one would from a reputable member of a audio club such as this one, or a new one direct from a small company such as Aric Audio, Decware(long wait will need to buy used), Erhard Audio, Bottle Head, just to name a few.
The Integrated will save you money on a second Power Cable and a set of RCA's, a savings of $200-$1000.
A nice streaming DAC (Lumin) , or Turntable (Denon DP-59) with an Integrated, Danny's speakers and some quality speaker, and RCA cables and you'll be a happy audiophile.
Burt..
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I'm intrigued by the Lyngdorf integrated amps. They have RoomPerfect; Dsp to correct to your room.
All the reviews say it works extremely well.
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My two go to pre amps are the PS Audio BHK which is a tube preamp and the Benchmark LA4 which is solid state. Both are really good. But in all honesty, my BHK has been sent back to PS Audio 3 times for repair. So there is that. The nice thing about the Benchmark is you can trial it for 30 days if you’re in the US. I also have a Freya+ which is really good if you’re budget is lower.
https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-la4-line-amplifier
That actually makes the Freya+ a good option because it can be used in three different modes: passive SS, SS with gain, or tubes with the flick of a switch so you can go back and forth and see what you like best. It's like three different types of preamp in one.
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That actually makes the Freya+ a good option because it can be used in three different modes: passive SS, SS with gain, or tubes with the flick of a switch so you can go back and forth and see what you like best. It's like three different types of preamp in one.
This is an interesting and valid point. Actually I would be interested in a blind test of the Freya in passive mode along with the Benchmark LA4 but at high levels of attenuation (i.e. low volume). That's where differences may be easily heard between the two as the LA4 has a tricked out attenuator that minimizes losses in fidelity at high attenuation levels (or maybe not!!). Which is why gain structure of your entire system overall is important. The less the attenuation, the more the signal (i.e. you maximize your SNR).
That being said, it looks the Freya is a whole lotta 'fun' to play with since it is truly multiple preamp designs in one (not to mention endless tube rolling):
https://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-freya-line-preamplifier
Best,
Anand.
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Some folks have had good success modifying their Freya preamps with upgrade caps and resistors. This will void the warranty, but if you buy one used that is out of warranty, this might be worth considering.
https://diyaudio.de/the-schiit-freya-multi-mode-preamp/ (https://diyaudio.de/the-schiit-freya-multi-mode-preamp/)
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Some folks have had good success modifying their Freya preamps with upgrade caps and resistors. This will void the warranty, but if you buy one used that is out of warranty, this might be worth considering.
https://diyaudio.de/the-schiit-freya-multi-mode-preamp/ (https://diyaudio.de/the-schiit-freya-multi-mode-preamp/)
I actually did this mod. Just the vcaps and it made a huge difference in tube mode. It’s $400 in caps, but it’s worth it on this preamp.
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If you're trying to keep the price down, I'd get the Freya + with the 6SN7 tubes. You can find them used for a good price, like here:
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649928325-schiit-audio-freya-wmatched-quad-set-jj-tubes/
+1 on the Freya+, it works well with the Encore’s. You can also do a bit of tube rolling, if you feel like a change. 6SN7’s are pretty easy to come by.
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Yes,+2 on the Freya +. Very versatile and an excellent bang for the buck. 128 step volume control, three operational modes with both single ended and XLR inputs/outputs. Responds extremely well to tube rolling, especially many NOS or ANOS varieties. Most of which easily take it to the next level. Then there's the new "solid state tube" as an additional option.
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Some folks have had good success modifying their Freya preamps with upgrade caps and resistors. This will void the warranty, but if you buy one used that is out of warranty, this might be worth considering.
https://diyaudio.de/the-schiit-freya-multi-mode-preamp/ (https://diyaudio.de/the-schiit-freya-multi-mode-preamp/)
Nice link! I do use Vcap ODAM along with a 10% bypass of Miflex for the input stage of solid state diy amp builds (some of which require a cap to eliminate/minimize dc offset).
There is a lot one can modify on that preamp judging by the pictures.
Best,
Anand.
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I just wanted to give an update. I have been reading everyone's post and I appreciate all the feedback. I have looked at some used Schist Freya+ and also talked to the folks at BlackIce. I like what I hear about both. The nice thing about the freya is you can change out the tubes and there is lots of info online about upgrading. I have never worked on electronics but it sounds real fun. They are also reporting that the upgrades changes the sound significantly. The BlackIce allows you to connect rear speakers for surround. The sales person said if you have a good system you will not need a center channel. Mike Lundy has talked this same thing in his set up. I know that music and movies are two different beast and I want my music first but the surround would be great also. BlackIce also has an upgrade program. They have different levels of upgrades they can do and still be warrantied. The BlackIce starts out at $2500 and I am sure the upgrades aren't cheap. BlackIce recommends you to start with the base system and see if you would like upgrades. When I looked at the upgrades some of them is something I feel would benefit from the start. A negative with the BlackIce is it doesn't seem like you can easily change out the tubes or tube roll.
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A couple thoughts regarding the Black Ice:
1) You have to remove the cover to access the tube, which involves unscrewing a few screws on the sides of the unit and a few more on the rear. They use standard philips head screws on the rear, but a small hex screw heads on the sides for some reason. If you don't have a set of allen wrenches around, it might be a hassle. But the cover slides off quite easily. The tube is held quite firmly in the tube socket, which is a great thing for a solid connection, but does make removing the tube a bit difficult. I had to use enough force that the PCB was flexing to a significant degree, and I had to be a bit careful rocking the tube back and forth to get it unseated without damaging the PCB. This could be a long-term concern if you like to roll tubes frequently, but will probably be fine if you just swap a few until you find the one you like best.
2) Don't discount the value of only having a single tube to swap in the Black Ice - high quality tubes are expensive, especially when you have to find matched pairs or buy them in quads.
3) The "surround sound" feature of the Black Ice is not equivalent to a home theater surround sound system. It's just processing the stereo signal and making a surround-effect with the rear speakers. It's not capable of reproducing the four independent channels from a home theater processor.
4) I've been mighty impressed with the Black Ice sound thus far vs. my Don Sachs preamp, which I have heard others say is heads above the Freya preamp. While I might be interested in exploring upgrades down the line for the sake of knowing how much better it could get, I currently feel no need to do so. It's performing at a high level in stock form. You might just agree after 45 days of trial period (vs the 15 Schiit gives you for the Freya).
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Do you use vinyl or dac as a source, or both? It depends too if you need phono cart loading with your preamp.
It wil be a DAC.
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I also have a schitt freya+ with the upgraded vcap odam caps
This thing sings for sure. Try out 6f8g and 6c8g tubes with it. These rival even my 6n8s 1578 melz which are really the best 6sn7 equivalent there is IMHO. The low upfront cost of the preamp and all the modding that can be done with tube rolling makes it a slam dunk.
Of note schitt fixed some blown resistors I had on my unit for free from a bad tube AFTER I had modded to included the new vcaps (this is $400 of caps.) They did this even though they didn't have to because I had modified the unit. Huge kuddos.
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I was looking at a Don Such's used Preamp. I am impressed with the build quality and parts he puts in his equipment, but he doesn't put a HT bypass in his preamps. Is there a work around for this?
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I was looking at a Don Such's used Preamp. I am impressed with the build quality and parts he puts in his equipment, but he doesn't put a HT bypass in his preamps. Is there a work around for this?
Yeah -- the workaround is: don't mix HT with 2-channel.
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Taking time to find a good preamp..
I have bought used:
VAC Standard $1400
Audio Research SP 15 used $1400
Threshold FET TEN including separate FET TEN phono $900
Conrad Johnson Act 2 $1400
(the only one I remember exact price was the Threshold pair the rest within a few hundred up or down) The Audio Research actually pain me $800 as I sold a SP10 for so much more it paid for itself and bought the SP15 plus $800 to spare. (the SP 15 beat the SP 10 hands down for sound quality)
All the above are great, audiophile top preamps. So what I am writing is you can find real audiophile preamps out there at the same/ similar prices you are thinking of getting middle of the road preamps for.
If it was hard to do, I would not have several great deals.. I'm no great shakes at dealing.. Just looked around and bought stuff I found.
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Yeah -- the workaround is: don't mix HT with 2-channel.
Yes, I just move a few connections around as needed. Or I run different cheapo speakers cables for my AVR and the good ones from my pre-amp/amp to my speakers when listening to music.
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I was looking at a Don Such's used Preamp. I am impressed with the build quality and parts he puts in his equipment, but he doesn't put a HT bypass in his preamps. Is there a work around for this?
Yes, there is. If you can find out what the unity gain setting (basically pass through, no gain, no cut) on the preamp volume control is, when you switch to the input connected to the HT receiver, set the volume control for the preamp at that level. For example, if the HT receiver is connected to input 3 on the preamp, the preamp's volume control ranges from 0 - 100 and the unity gain setting is 76, when you switch to input 3, set the preamp volume to 76 and leave it there. Use the HT receiver to control the volume.
The manufacturer of the preamp should be able to tell you what the unity gain setting is.
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I use that method with my preamp. I always turn the volume to zero before switching inputs or turning the preamp off for the evening, a habit I developed 50 years ago when switching inputs on some preamps produced loud thumps.
If you forget to turn down the volume because you imbibed too much the night before then morning music will wake you up real fast.
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I use that method with my preamp. I always turn the volume to zero before switching inputs or turning the preamp off for the evening, a habit I developed 50 years ago when switching inputs on some preamps produced loud thumps.
If you forget to turn down the volume because you imbibed too much the night before then morning music will wake you up real fast.
Now that's funny!
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Taking time to find a good preamp..
I have bought used:
VAC Standard $1400
Audio Research SP 15 used $1400
Threshold FET TEN including separate FET TEN phono $900
Conrad Johnson Act 2 $1400
(the only one I remember exact price was the Threshold pair the rest within a few hundred up or down) The Audio Research actually pain me $800 as I sold a SP10 for so much more it paid for itself and bought the SP15 plus $800 to spare. (the SP 15 beat the SP 10 hands down for sound quality)
All the above are great, audiophile top preamps. So what I am writing is you can find real audiophile preamps out there at the same/ similar prices you are thinking of getting middle of the road preamps for.
If it was hard to do, I would not have several great deals.. I'm no great shakes at dealing.. Just looked around and bought stuff I found.
I'm new to the scene and not sure what is good equipment. I also know that price doesn't equate to quality all the time. I have heard of these brands but I don't know anything about them.
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If you're trying to keep the price down, I'd get the Freya + with the 6SN7 tubes. You can find them used for a good price, like here:
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649928325-schiit-audio-freya-wmatched-quad-set-jj-tubes/
I was doing research and ran across the 300b Fire Bottle tube amp from Dennis Had and read great things about it. He also has an upgraded version called the Hot Rod. I seen some used online at a reasonable price but none for sale now. I also seen a Aric audio 300b dual mono "Bespoke" being sold used that is custom. Seems to be a good deal but curious if anyone has had an Aric audio amp or an Inspire Amp? Dennis also makes a preamp but haven't seen much online about it.
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I have an Aric Audio Transcend amp.Used AA are few and far between. You can Google reviews or there's a few on AudioGon about the preamps. I've owned mine for around four years and am completely happy with it.
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I was doing research and ran across the 300b Fire Bottle tube amp from Dennis Had and read great things about it. He also has an upgraded version called the Hot Rod. I seen some used online at a reasonable price but none for sale now. I also seen a Aric audio 300b dual mono "Bespoke" being sold used that is custom. Seems to be a good deal but curious if anyone has had an Aric audio amp or an Inspire Amp? Dennis also makes a preamp but haven't seen much online about it.
I have a 300b Inspire Fire Bottle- haven't tried it with my recently finished Oticas yet though- coming soon. It just wasn't powerful enough to really drive my old speakers @ 89dB efficiency. Hoping it works better with the Oticas or I might put it up for sale (it's only just broken in...) It is a beautiful amp.
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I have a 300b Inspire Fire Bottle- haven't tried it with my recently finished Oticas yet though- coming soon. It just wasn't powerful enough to really drive my old speakers @ 89dB efficiency. Hoping it works better with the Oticas or I might put it up for sale (it's only just broken in...) It is a beautiful amp.
What speakers have you used with it? How efficient are they? I was thinking about this amp but I don’t think it will work well with the NX-Stydio’s. Maybe someone can chime in if they have an inspire amp with studio’s.
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BrandonB;
Do you know of anyone who has a really good sounding setup? My advice is to use this setup as a reference to help you pic a good sounding component. Ask if the owner is willing to try out the component you`re concidering to buy.
This strategy has helped me a lot up through my earlier audiophile years and I still "use" old buddies setups now & then, bringing with me some good music & some selected single malt for a listening-session.
Another way to do this could be to simply buy this $300,- MBL-6010 clone and use it as a reference. Simple old school preamp this. No dac here, not even a riaa but it is a dead silent remotecontrolled pre with balanced in/outs. Performance is on reference-level, nothing less.
Even high-end audio can be fun :wink:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255122499405