Songtowers and Tube Amps

HAITIMAN · « **Reply #20 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 03:47 pm »

Quote from: DMurphy on 19 Dec 2010, 03:41 am

OK Let me open up Pandora's Box here. What exactly are you guys hearing with tube gear that you aren't hearing with a decent quality SS amp? I personally can't hear any difference between a high quality SS unit (from AVA) and a high quality tube amp (from AVA). I definitely can hear a difference between a so-so SS amp and a bad tube amp--the latter has rolled off highs and flabby bass. But I still think the tube mystique belongs in the category of urban legends. I've listened to some of the most expensive tube amps on this planet driving my speakers in my house, and I thought my AVA Insight sounded about the same. Obviously we're not going to resolve this issure here, but it would help me a little if you could describe more specifically what improvements you're hearing fromn the tube gear. And do you really, really think you could pass a blind comparison test?

Oh look! My words are quoted in order to launch a tube vs SS debate!
Dennis, did I say I am hearing something from my ULTRAVALVE DESTROYER that I am not hearing with a "decent quality", (what is that?) SS amp? I'll answer that for you.....No.
I was simply recommending the ULTRAVALVE DESTROYER based on my personal experience.
Now, please, I think it is obvious that you, and others, on this board are paid pumpers for AVA....that's great....good for you....however, I really don't care if you can't hear a difference....because I didn't suggest there was such a difference.
OK, people. Again I would like to recommend the ULTRAVALVE DESTROYER for your Salk Songtowers. Just my personal opinion and no comparison whatsoever to any "decent quality" SS amp, (NAD???) Buy the Rogue Cronus Magnum tube integrated, American Made, NO FLABBY BASS!! NO ROLLED OFF HIGHS!! Don't settle for a cheesy 35 watts when you can have 90.

putz · « **Reply #21 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 03:49 pm »

Maybe I should have put this thread in Cheap & Cheerful. The reason I mentioned the Dynaco and Jolida was price and performance related. I'm looking to spend under a grand and get enough power to satisfy the SongTowers and get the best possible quality with my cost limitations.

Great replies so far and Tube vs SS is so subjective. Maybe that's why I want in. I'll mention my latest Tweak at work and the reply I always get is "Can you really hear a diference?"

Nuance · « **Reply #22 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 03:52 pm »

I completely agree with TJHUB. I had the luxury of being invited to his home when he received a new piece of gear (various preamps, DAC's and amps). Each time a "tubed" piece of gear was swapped in I noticed an immediate difference. We even had a nice swap/comparison session with his former DAC (SS) and new DAC (Tube). We were able to swap on the fly and the difference was subtle with some music but obvious with others. The largest difference was the bass response and change in high frequencies (like Dennis said). I'll also note that the soundstage and imaging capabilities of the system changed as well. Was this due to added distortion? Probably. Was it a pain in the butt to get everything to synergize? Uh huh. But was it worth it? Well, I think TJHUB's post answers that question (yes, in case you didn't gather

). However, could I pick out the differences in a blind, level matched test? I honestly have no idea...probably not. I have the utmost confidence in my own hearing, and I trust it above anyone else's opinion, but the results of properly conducted blind/level matched tests always turn out the same, with no one being able to consistently hear the difference. No matter how good I feel my hearing is, I cannot argue with those results, hence my admission I probably wouldn't pass a blind level matched test. But here is the important point: whether or not we can pass such a test probably doesn't matter to most people. If they hear a difference, whether it's really there or not, and it makes them happy, isn't this all that matters? Your money is yours to spend, so choose what you feel sounds best to you, and don't let anyone tell you that you're wrong (don't confuse the latter with people giving you good suggestions and honest opinions).

Dennis is right, you're right, I'm right, etc. One of the most important things I've learned about this hobby is there are no definitive, unanimous rights or wrongs; just different tastes. It all depends on what you're looking for.

For the record, I am not taking a side in this discussion.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #23 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 04:06 pm »

I'm with you guys. Coming from someone who was once only a tube guy, you can appreciate either technology as long as the system itself has synergy.

For the record, I am currently running a tube pre into a solid state amp powering the Salks. (I know this might surprise some of you

)

DMurphy · « **Reply #24 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 04:16 pm »

I think Nuance's response is dead on target. I was really just trying to even up the score count on the SS vs Tube debate. I think there's a tendency for perople in the high, or higher end market to assume tubes are superior. I grew up with an Eico ST70, and it sounded fine, even though its specs weren't great. Then I owned the first of the NAD integrated SS amps, and it sounded fine. And on and on. I've owned many amps, many speakers. And all I'm sure of is that you'll be happy with a good speaker no matter what's driving it, assuming it's decent. But you won't be happy with a less-than-good speaker--no matter what's driving it. Oh--I'm not a paid stooge for AVA. That's what I'm running now, so I mentioned it. I wish blind amp tests were easier to perform. But, as Nuance describes, even good unblinded comparison tests are a pain to deal with.

charmerci · « **Reply #25 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 05:17 pm »

The question - to those who are so sure of what they hear when they swap components - is -are your listening skills such that over a period of time you are completely satisfied with what you have bought? Can you keep anything that you have bought for the rest of your life without some characteristic of the sound bothering you? Are your initial impressions always validated after listening to the components over a period of months or years?

All I can say Haitiman is that my over 10 year old AVA/B&W system continues to amaze me year after year.

ratso · « **Reply #26 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 05:25 pm »

hey dennis, i have always tried my hardest to avoid these types of threads around here and in other forums. i have right from the start felt there is way to much "audiophile" voodoo and snakeoil in this sport. i ran across early on peter aczal's (the audio critic) stuff and took it to heart. i would be pretty sure that a lot of these beliefs wouldn't pass any ABX test, including the whole SS vs. tubes thing. that being said i own a supratek preamp. it sounds good, it looks good and it makes me happy at night when i look over at it and see it glowing. would a well made SS preamp sound as good? probably.

mchuckp · « **Reply #27 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 05:39 pm »

To me, the whole argument of tube for SS doesn't really belong in the realm of snake oil. Sure people can argue about cables and other tweaks but I just don't see it for tube vs SS. Guess I've never even considered it an argument of if one hears a difference, more of if you LIKE the difference. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong in a blind test but even without doing blind, to me the difference between tube and SS is pretty substantial in the overall presentation and I'd be surprised if I couldn't tell you which was which. There is no right or wrong in tube vs SS, just which one likes.

BTW, TJHUB made some great comments and I'm fully on board with what he hears except maybe his description of bass. I personally don't think SS necessarily has "better" bass. I think it has quicker and tighter bass and is great for things that need that kind of impact (movies, electronic music). But when listening to most music, I find tubes present a low end that sounds more realistic to what the actual instrument sounds like. I've heard some tube gear that sounds bloated in the bottom and some that is tighter and closer to SS and some in between.

TJHUB · « **Reply #28 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 06:00 pm »

Quote from: mchuckp on 19 Dec 2010, 05:39 pm

To me, the whole argument of tube for SS doesn't really belong in the realm of snake oil. Sure people can argue about cables and other tweaks but I just don't see it for tube vs SS. Guess I've never even considered it an argument of if one hears a difference, more of if you LIKE the difference. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong in a blind test but even without doing blind, to me the difference between tube and SS is pretty substantial in the overall presentation and I'd be surprised if I couldn't tell you which was which. There is no right or wrong in tube vs SS, just which one likes.

BTW, TJHUB made some great comments and I'm fully on board with what he hears except maybe his description of bass. I personally don't think SS necessarily has "better" bass. I think it has quicker and tighter bass and is great for things that need that kind of impact (movies, electronic music). But when listening to most music, I find tubes present a low end that sounds more realistic to what the actual instrument sounds like. I've heard some tube gear that sounds bloated in the bottom and some that is tighter and closer to SS and some in between.

Just to be clear... The bass issue was also clearly heard by Nuance at one of our get togethers. In the end, I attributed my particular issue to the DAC and tube being used. Once the DAC was upgraded with the Burson op amps and a better quality tube was used, the bass issue was gone.

DMurphy · « **Reply #29 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 06:10 pm »

If there is a difference, I can't really agree that neither one is wrong--just different. In theory, either they're both wrong, or one is right and one is wrong. There should be some standard of absolute accuracy to use as a reference point. But the science probably hasn't advanced to that point, so having opened up this can of worms, I'm going shopping.

srb · « **Reply #30 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 06:21 pm »

Quote from: ratso on 19 Dec 2010, 05:25 pm

I have right from the start felt there is way to much "audiophile" voodoo and snakeoil in this sport.

I rather like the choice of the word "sport" in lieu of "hobby" !

Steve

Saturn94 · « **Reply #31 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 06:45 pm »

Quote from: HAITIMAN on 19 Dec 2010, 03:47 pm

Oh look! My words are quoted in order to launch a tube vs SS debate!
Dennis, did I say I am hearing something from my ULTRAVALVE DESTROYER that I am not hearing with a "decent quality", (what is that?) SS amp? I'll answer that for you.....No.
I was simply recommending the ULTRAVALVE DESTROYER based on my personal experience.
Now, please, I think it is obvious that you, and others, on this board are paid pumpers for AVA....that's great....good for you....however, I really don't care if you can't hear a difference....because I didn't suggest there was such a difference.
OK, people. Again I would like to recommend the ULTRAVALVE DESTROYER for your Salk Songtowers. Just my personal opinion and no comparison whatsoever to any "decent quality" SS amp, (NAD???) Buy the Rogue Cronus Magnum tube integrated, American Made, NO FLABBY BASS!! NO ROLLED OFF HIGHS!! Don't settle for a cheesy 35 watts when you can have 90.

Referencing the bolded text.......are you serious? In my dealings with Dennis since early 2010 including 2 visits to his place for extensive auditions he never came across as a "paid pumper" for anyone, including AVA and Salk! He never tried to steer me to or "sell" me on any particular brand or model. He simply let me listen and come to my own conclusions.

If Dennis is a "paid pumper" for AVA, then he is doing a terrible job of it!

With all the talk about how great tubes are, I can understand the OP's curiousity and would certainly not discourage him from trying them.

Personally I like SS, but I wouldn't presume to force my personal opinion/tastes on someone else.

satfrat · « **Reply #32 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 06:47 pm »

Quote from: ratso on 19 Dec 2010, 05:25 pm

hey dennis, i have always tried my hardest to avoid these types of threads here and in other forums. i have right from the start felt there is way to much "audiophile" voodoo and snakeoil in this sport. i ran across early on peter aczal's (the audio critic) stuff and took it to heart. i would be pretty sure that a lot of these beliefs wouldn't pass any ABX test, including the whole SS vs. tubes thing. that being said i own a supratek preamp. it sounds good, it looks good and it makes me happy at night when i look over at it and see it glowing. would a well made SS preamp sound as good? probably.

After being the thread author of your most recent AVS thread who's 1st words were "What say you",,, an AVS thread concerning GR Research's generous crossover parts upgrade comparison demonstration tour for anyone willing to try it, I find your 1st statement laughable. I just want to say thanks for the Sunday chuckle!

Please do continue,,,,,,,,

Cheers,
Robin

JerryM · « **Reply #33 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 07:07 pm »

Quote from: putz on 18 Dec 2010, 11:53 pm

Thinking of picking up a Tube Amp for my Songtowers. I'm currently powering them and a SongCenter with an Outlaw 7125 for 2 Channel and HT listening. No complaints there, just want to experience the tube sound especially with vinyl.

I'm considering a Dynaco ST-70 and a Jolida 502 BRC. I've also looked at some of the new Chinese amps but never having owned a Tube Amp before, I'm concerned about servicing issues.

So has anyone used/heard a Dynaco or Jolida with Songtowers? Will I be able to play them at a high volume without clipping? Any and all comments appreciated.

Hmm, seems this thread has stayed pretty far off topic; let's see if we can get back to the original query.

Putz, you should give Jim a call and ask him. He not only sells, but performs mods to Jolida gear as noted on his website here. I'm sure he will be able to advise you based on your room, music interests, typical listening levels, etc.

Have fun,
Jerry

Saturn94 · « **Reply #34 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 07:32 pm »

Quote from: JerryM on 19 Dec 2010, 07:07 pm

Hmm, seems this thread has stayed pretty far off topic; let's see if we can get back to the original query.

Putz, you should give Jim a call and ask him. He not only sells, but performs mods to Jolida gear as noted on his website here. I'm sure he will be able to advise you based on your room, music interests, typical listening levels, etc.

Have fun,
Jerry

Excellent advice.

winston1156 · « **Reply #35 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 10:15 pm »

I think there are minor sonic differences between the 'typical' tube and the 'typical' ss. However the spectrum is so wide (kt88, el34, single ended etc.) that it is a bit difficult to pin down. Honestly, the right amp with the right speakers can be either. I will say that some speakers just seem to require so much current that ss is the most logical choice.
It is usually below 20 degrees f around here lately so I'm happy with my row of room heaters.

Art_Chicago · « **Reply #36 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 03:59 am »

Quote from: winston1156 on 19 Dec 2010, 10:15 pm

It is usually below 20 degrees f around here lately so I'm happy with my row of room heaters.

I did not realize that an 1-hour drive (from Chicago to Milwaukee) would make such a difference in temperature!
However I do find that the tubes sound "warmer" during winter. Enjoying my AVA T8+ now.

Nuance · « **Reply #37 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 06:49 pm »

Quote from: DMurphy on 19 Dec 2010, 04:16 pm

And all I'm sure of is that you'll be happy with a good speaker no matter what's driving it, assuming it's decent. But you won't be happy with a less-than-good speaker--no matter what's driving it.

This is the best post in this thread; something I think everyone can attest to.

Get a great pair of speakers, then start messing with electronics in order to tweak the sonic signature to your hearts desires. Just my $0.02.

And now to recommend something for the OP: I like the Hybrind Butler 2250. It's has it's weaknesses, as does most gear, but it also has some mighty strengths IMO.

Once you go tubes you'll probably either hate it or never go back. If it's the latter, though, it might not be an easy journey, as different tubes and technologies give a different sound, and it may take an infinite amount of testing before you are completely satisfied. Just remember this: I warned you.

Nuance · « **Reply #38 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 06:58 pm »

Quote from: DMurphy on 19 Dec 2010, 06:10 pm

...I'm going shopping.

Would you perhaps be shopping for audio related gear? Inquiring minds wants to know.

satfrat · « **Reply #39 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 07:05 pm »

Quote from: Nuance on 20 Dec 2010, 06:49 pm

This is the best post in this thread; something I think everyone can attest to.

Get a great pair of speakers, then start messing with electronics in order to tweak the sonic signature to your hearts desires. Just my $0.02.

And now to recommend something for the OP: I like the Hybrind Butler 2250. It's has it's weaknesses, as does most gear, but it also has some mighty strengths IMO.

Once you go tubes you'll probably either hate it or never go back. If it's the latter, though, it might not be an easy journey, as different tubes and technologies give a different sound, and it may take an infinite amount of testing before you are completely satisfied. Just remember this: I warned you.

Couldn't agree with you more about highlighting the type of speakers you end up choosing that will fit your own musical preferences but with tube gear, I personally think it's the different type of flavors that can be obtained through tube rolling that makes that avenue so attractive to the hobbiest. Exploring is half the fun, listening being the other half. So I look at your warning as an invitation to adventure myself.

Cheers,
Robin