AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Digital Amplifier Company Owners => Topic started by: AmpDesigner333 on 2 Apr 2019, 05:50 pm
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Cherry Amplifier® will be powering a potentially record breaking surround system at AXPONA 2019, Room Nirvana-C !
This will be a 9.8.6 channel system, more than 25,000 Watts total !!
Here are the Speakers:
Front: 3 x JTR Noesis 212RT (powered by Cherry MEGA MONO, 3000W total)
Surround: 6 x JTR Single 8HT-LP (powered by Cherry KING Maraschino, 2400W total)
Sub: 8 x JTR Captivator 2400 (self powered, 19200W total)
Overhead: 6 x JTR Slanted 8HT (powered by 5-CHerry, 2000W total)
Note that Left and Right front channels will be powered by the new Cherry MEGAschino MK2. These are MONOs with 1800W transformers and quad rail cap upgrades.
The Screen is a TRIM motorized masking screen with the Enlightor-Neo acoustically transparent screen, 162.5" diagonal ($10,000 list). The Projector is a JVC DLA-RS4500 (4K HDR Laser).
The Source is an HTPC running JRiver Media Center. The Processor is the Storm Audio ISP 3d.20 Elite.
The room is more than 1700 square feet.
Link to Nirvana-C exhibitors:
http://www.axpona.com/exhibitors.asp?list=company&s=2-%20Nirvana%20C
What are the hours for AXPONA?
Friday, April 12 2019 10:00 AM – 6:00 PM
Saturday, April 13 2019 10:00 AM – 6:00 PM
Sunday, April 14 2019 10:00 AM – 4:00 PM
Where does AXPONA take place?
The Renaissance Schaumburg Hotel & Convention Center
1551 N Thoreau Drive
Schaumburg IL 60173
Please reply here if you plan to attend!
#AXPONA2019 #AXPONA #Sound #Stereo #Reviews #MEGAschino #DAC #DACDAC #CherryDACDAC #CherryAmp #CherryMaraschino #CherryMEGA #MaraschinoCherry #SurroundSound #Audio #HomeAudio #Amplifiers #DigitalAmpCo #HighEndAudio #miniCherry #Cherry5ch #cherry5 #5-CHerry #4-CHerry #3-CHerry #2-CHerry #JVC #JTRSpeakers #HighImpactAV #SeymourScreenExcellence #JRiverMediaCenter #JRiver #SurroundSound #HomeTheater #ExtremeAudio
Here's the room setup:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192812)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192813)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192814)
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We will also be showing the five 5-CHerry for the first time in public:
More info on our new 5-CHerry amp:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162524.0
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AmpDesigner333 CONGRATULATIONS on so many levels :thumb:
First, you GET it, immersive audio is just better (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150038.0)
Granted the show system is SOA for demo purposes but when you dig deeper you see there is just sooo much bang for the buck going on here. Yes, the Storm processor is $16K but that is 16 channels AND includes Dirac room correction PLUS video capabilities. It will do two channel and surround sound and immersive audio. At $1000 a channel that puts it right in line with a reasonably priced two channel preamp.
The front channel speakers come in at less than $3K a piece and they are monsters, two 12 inch drivers.
Those surrounds and height surrounds seem perfectly matched and are $900 each and are not wimpy with 8 inch drivers, bigger than some front channels. Finally you have the 5 channel cherry and even at full retail of $2990 still comes in under $600 a channel, small potatoes in the world of traditional two channel prices.
The thought of taking your SOA show system and bringing it into a home is mind boggling on a band for the buck basis. TRUE SOA could be a system with TWO 5 channel cherries, FIVE single 8HT speakers as bed channels, 4 slanted 8HT's as height channels and one 8HT LP on the ceiling as a VOG channel for an auro 3d setup. Throw in a sub or two and an immersive processor that includes Auro 3D and you have a system that will do two channel on steroids (and then some). I hope you can offer some typs of value system as a show special and sell out. Please posts a video or two and lots of pics. GOOD LUCK (BTW, if any one doubts my claim that "Immersive is just better PLEASE see this demo at Axpona :D)
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I don't see why some AC members get so defensive about 2 channel. This is not an either/or decision, I advocate when you go immersive you get both.
Now you can enjoy that Sweet Cherry Sound in YOUR home theater system. The 5-CHerry is capable of powering even large home theater systems with ease as well as giving you pristine two channel playback performance!
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I don't see why some AC members get so defensive about 2 channel. This is not an either/or decision, I advocate when you go immersive you get both.
Now you can enjoy that Sweet Cherry Sound in YOUR home theater system. The 5-CHerry is capable of powering even large home theater systems with ease as well as giving you pristine two channel playback performance!
Thank you for your kind words. We will also be running 2-Channel Demos on the same system (like you said)!
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I don't see why some AC members get so defensive about 2 channel. This is not an either/or decision, I advocate when you go immersive you get both.
Now you can enjoy that Sweet Cherry Sound in YOUR home theater system. The 5-CHerry is capable of powering even large home theater systems with ease as well as giving you pristine two channel playback performance!
In reality, it is an either/or thing. Most people have a budget. Unless you are playing with near unlimited funds, you have to prioritize.
This example demonstrated will likely sound great, but it comes at a significant price. I am sure this system could also do well with 2-channel. However, everything is being pumped through 3000 dollar mains. If you are a speakers first thinker, there is great room for improvement.
Significant money has to go into all of the other speakers, amplification, and processing needed to obtain all of the extra channels.
I am not going to lay out all of the math, so I am ball-parking this system costs around 30-40K even without the Projector.
You could build a great 2-channel system for 40K that could include top of the line Cherry amplifiers and speakers that would dominate this multi channel system for 2-channel without question.
If multi-channel is your priority of course, this system likely kills it.
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My 1971 Dynaco amp manual comntained a statement I'll paraphrase thusly: Listening position is more critical with mutiple speakers/channels.
True then, true now, and gets truer the more speakers/channels you add.
While multichannel can improve spacial realism- for the one listener in the exact right spot- that effect falls apart fast as you get even a little distant from the 'sweet spot'. My old Allison speaks threw a stereo image that held up pretty well anywhere in the room.
I guess I wouldn't want to devote an entire room and a pile of money to a system I can only experience fully by myself. I have headphones for that listening at probably <1% of the cost. BTW, good true binaural through 'phones surpasses any multichannel speaker setup I've heard. Problem is, true binaural recordings are very rare. For music, I'd rather divide my speaker budget by 2 than by 7 and choose better speakers and a layout that allows some social listening. As with all things audio, you pays your money and you makes your choice. Clearly for a vendor, selling you 5-7 channels of amplification and speakers (rather thahn two) is better for them- but is it better for you.
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My 1971 Dynaco amp manual comntained a statement I'll paraphrase thusly: Listening position is more critical with mutiple speakers/channels.
True then, true now, and gets truer the more speakers/channels you add.
While multichannel can improve spacial realism- for the one listener in the exact right spot- that effect falls apart fast as you get even a little distant from the 'sweet spot'. My old Allison speaks threw a stereo image that held up pretty well anywhere in the room.
I guess I wouldn't want to devote an entire room and a pile of money to a system I can only experience fully by myself. I have headphones for that listening at probably <1% of the cost. BTW, good true binaural through 'phones surpasses any multichannel speaker setup I've heard. Problem is, true binaural recordings are very rare. For music, I'd rather divide my speaker budget by 2 than by 7 and choose better speakers and a layout that allows some social listening. As with all things audio, you pays your money and you makes your choice. Clearly for a vendor, selling you 5-7 channels of amplification and speakers (rather thahn two) is better for them- but is it better for you.
There was this radio show back in the 80s/90s called "for headphones only". They played tracks that were either made to be heard on headphones or just sounded great on headphones "by accident". Shame it was FM radio. Anyway, maybe there's something like that out there now....
Regarding the listening position, what do you think of movie theater sound? (based on your recent experience in actual theaters)
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In reality, it is an either/or thing. Most people have a budget. Unless you are playing with near unlimited funds, you have to prioritize.
This example demonstrated will likely sound great, but it comes at a significant price. I am sure this system could also do well with 2-channel. However, everything is being pumped through 3000 dollar mains. If you are a speakers first thinker, there is great room for improvement.
Significant money has to go into all of the other speakers, amplification, and processing needed to obtain all of the extra channels.
I am not going to lay out all of the math, so I am ball-parking this system costs around 30-40K even without the Projector.
You could build a great 2-channel system for 40K that could include top of the line Cherry amplifiers and speakers that would dominate this multi channel system for 2-channel without question.
If multi-channel is your priority of course, this system likely kills it.
As a 2-channel setup, MEGA MK2 MONOs driving 212RTs is quite impressive. JTRs are the "unsung hero" of speakers these days. They don't have the fancy curves of the "ultra high end" stuff, but hearing is believing. Everyone who's heard my 210RT based system (212RT's little brother) was thoroughly impressed. These are the first horn speaker I ever really liked, and they continue to amaze years later. They don't have the "blaring" midrange of "klipsch type" speakers, plus they perform wonderfully through the entire spectrum. Lowest THD I've measured to date from a commercially available speaker with REW. Here's a link:
http://www.jtrspeakers.com/home-audio.html
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In reality, it is an either/or thing. Most people have a budget. Unless you are playing with near unlimited funds, you have to prioritize.
This example demonstrated will likely sound great, but it comes at a significant price. I am sure this system could also do well with 2-channel. However, everything is being pumped through 3000 dollar mains. If you are a speakers first thinker, there is great room for improvement.
Significant money has to go into all of the other speakers, amplification, and processing needed to obtain all of the extra channels.
I am not going to lay out all of the math, so I am ball-parking this system costs around 30-40K even without the Projector.
You could build a great 2-channel system for 40K that could include top of the line Cherry amplifiers and speakers that would dominate this multi channel system for 2-channel without question.
If multi-channel is your priority of course, this system likely kills it.
Multi-channel?? I haven't used a "multi-channel" system in about 4 years. This will be a demo of "immersive" audio which is a completely different animal. IMO if you take $5K+ you can build a better system for "music" going immersive than you can with just two speakers. The concept that budget is a limiting factor is true, if you only have two speakers. There is an entire thread devoted to immersive vs two channel, I don't mean to debate that in this thread. Before you can conclude for yourself you need to experience immersive audio, preferably in the Auro 3D format. The processor used in the demo is Storm Audio at $16K. You can get an Auro 3D capable processor starting at $2k, about the same price as a decent 2 channel pre-amp. If you haven't "experienced" immersive audio yet I can think of no better way to start than to check out the DAC demo at Axpona. If you want to discuss immersive in general as opposed to the demo at Axpona please post in the "Immersive is Just Better" thread and I'll respond. Thanks
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My 1971 Dynaco amp manual comntained a statement I'll paraphrase thusly: Listening position is more critical with mutiple speakers/channels.
True then, true now, and gets truer the more speakers/channels you add.
While multichannel can improve spacial realism- for the one listener in the exact right spot- that effect falls apart fast as you get even a little distant from the 'sweet spot'. My old Allison speaks threw a stereo image that held up pretty well anywhere in the room.
I guess I wouldn't want to devote an entire room and a pile of money to a system I can only experience fully by myself. I have headphones for that listening at probably <1% of the cost. BTW, good true binaural through 'phones surpasses any multichannel speaker setup I've heard. Problem is, true binaural recordings are very rare. For music, I'd rather divide my speaker budget by 2 than by 7 and choose better speakers and a layout that allows some social listening. As with all things audio, you pays your money and you makes your choice. Clearly for a vendor, selling you 5-7 channels of amplification and speakers (rather thahn two) is better for them- but is it better for you.
dBCooper in 1971 electronic room correction wasn't invented yet, the "sweet spot" is not so limited these days using Audyssey, Dirac, or ARC. Feel free to spend your speaker budget as you wish but to assume that a budget divided by two will be better than a budget divided by 10 is a severe miscalculation if you are spending more than $2K IMO.
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I have found 'immersive' sound systems I have heard much more recently to still be sensitive to listener location. Even if the room correction corrects in the time domain for listener and/or speaker location and arrival times, instead of just in the amplitude domain (which AFAIK is the case), those corrections would be valid for only one listening location; therefore the statement would still be true. The system cannot provide separate corrections for multiple listener positions simultaneously in the room, whether for amplitude or time.
Note that I am not rejecting immersive sound per se; it can be impressive. But like anything technological, it has constraints and the laws of physics still apply. I was talking to a customer once who had questions about gaming on a satellite-based internet connection. When I mentioned the approximately quarter-second lag required for the signal to travel to the satellite and back, their response was, "Oh, they'll engineer that out." No, not without repealing the laws of physics, they won't. The speakers represent points around the the listener. The sound field they generate is not the same as the sound splashing across the walls of the Concertgebouw- but it can create a fairly convincing illusion over a small area.
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There was this radio show back in the 80s/90s called "for headphones only". They played tracks that were either made to be heard on headphones or just sounded great on headphones "by accident". Shame it was FM radio. Anyway, maybe there's something like that out there now....
Regarding the listening position, what do you think of movie theater sound? (based on your recent experience in actual theaters)
Well, first of all, it's usually way too f***ing loud, especially with 'action' flicks, but at home you can control that... It is somewhat subject to the same phenomena, but the generally larger distances to the speaker help. Move around the next time you go to the theater or to a surround (or for that matter, two channel) demo. It sounds different from different locations. The frequency balance changes (amplitude domain) and the imaging changes (time domain). There's a reason the term 'sweet spot' was coined. Of course, if you are in a 1700+sf room (as depicted in the OP), you have an actual theater with the benefits that go with that, but I would venture a guess that even here on AC you will find few 1700sf listening rooms.
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Multi-channel?? I haven't used a "multi-channel" system in about 4 years. This will be a demo of "immersive" audio which is a completely different animal. IMO if you take $5K+ you can build a better system for "music" going immersive than you can with just two speakers. The concept that budget is a limiting factor is true, if you only have two speakers. There is an entire thread devoted to immersive vs two channel, I don't mean to debate that in this thread. Before you can conclude for yourself you need to experience immersive audio, preferably in the Auro 3D format. The processor used in the demo is Storm Audio at $16K. You can get an Auro 3D capable processor starting at $2k, about the same price as a decent 2 channel pre-amp. If you haven't "experienced" immersive audio yet I can think of no better way to start than to check out the DAC demo at Axpona. If you want to discuss immersive in general as opposed to the demo at Axpona please post in the "Immersive is Just Better" thread and I'll respond. Thanks
Please share the link here to the "Immersive is Just Better" thread. Thanks!
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For anyone curious about "immersive audio" please check out this thread. You will find opinions about immersive audio posted from members, critics, engineers and musicians along with reviews of components and videos of engineers in the studio mixing immersive music:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150038.0
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I'll stop by to hear this on Friday. Have a fun show at AXPONA.
Mark
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There was this radio show back in the 80s/90s called "for headphones only". They played tracks that were either made to be heard on headphones or just sounded great on headphones "by accident". Shame it was FM radio. Anyway, maybe there's something like that out there now....
Regarding the listening position, what do you think of movie theater sound? (based on your recent experience in actual theaters)
A local chain movie theater just upgraded to a Dolby Atmos dedicated viewing room. I saw Shazam there last week.
Honestly, I thought it was horrible. I've never been to a movie theater that had a great sounding sound system. This wasn't any different. Generally, you get copious bass and volume, but the sound is always more like a hammer than anything else.
It was cool when some of the characters flew overhead, or in from a particular direction, but other than that it wasn't impressive at all.
Despite having dozens of speakers located around and above, the sound is very 2 dimensional, the front stage especially. When someone is talking at the front of the screen, the image is as flat as the screen.
There isn't any dimensionality to the sound. When listening at home on my lowly 2 speakers, voices seem more present in the space.
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Ampdesigner333, I hope you get a chance to demo some music upmixed in auro 3d. I know that PJ will be center stage but a any two channel track can be upmixed into immersive. The Dolby Surround and DTS-X upmixers aren't so great with music but auromatic is great. Here is an example from CES a while back:
https://www.avsforum.com/auro-3d-music-upmix-demo-stormaudio-isp-3d-16-elite-prepro-ces-2017/
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A local chain movie theater just upgraded to a Dolby Atmos dedicated viewing room. I saw Shazam there last week.
Honestly, I thought it was horrible.
I've got to say if that's how you felt, it wasn't done very well. I heard a local guys full Atmos system when I lived in my previous state and nearly shit myself as I wasn't expecting what I heard. Since I went there to hear his JBL 4367's and wasn't blown away by them I wasn't expecting much until he turned on the full HT. :o Needless to say I was shocked and it's still the best theater I've ever heard. A proper theater setup like he had blows away any other 5.4 or 7.4 system out there I'm sure.
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This example demonstrated will likely sound great, but it comes at a significant price. I am sure this system could also do well with 2-channel. However, everything is being pumped through 3000 dollar mains. If you are a speakers first thinker, there is great room for improvement.
I would put Noesis 212RT next to any speaker at any cost. The Noesis 212RT acts as a point source with a concentric and time aligned mid and high frequency coaxial loaded on the horn. They have extreme low distortion (0.30% at 100db THD). The 35hz lowend spec is free air and in room they easily go to 25hz.
My 1971 Dynaco amp manual comntained a statement I'll paraphrase thusly: Listening position is more critical with mutiple speakers/channels.
True then, true now, and gets truer the more speakers/channels you add.
While multichannel can improve spacial realism- for the one listener in the exact right spot- that effect falls apart fast as you get even a little distant from the 'sweet spot'. My old Allison speaks threw a stereo image that held up pretty well anywhere in the room.
I guess I wouldn't want to devote an entire room and a pile of money to a system I can only experience fully by myself. I have headphones for that listening at probably <1% of the cost. BTW, good true binaural through 'phones surpasses any multichannel speaker setup I've heard. Problem is, true binaural recordings are very rare. For music, I'd rather divide my speaker budget by 2 than by 7 and choose better speakers and a layout that allows some social listening. As with all things audio, you pays your money and you makes your choice. Clearly for a vendor, selling you 5-7 channels of amplification and speakers (rather thahn two) is better for them- but is it better for you.
The whole reason to go with modern multi-channel is to give everyone on the room a great listening experience. With 2 channel you need to be centered between the speakers to have a good center image however with modern multi-channel you have a center channel speaker that produces all the content that should be centered in the sound stage so everyone in the room hears the centered content directly for the center of the sound stage. We're going to be demo'ing the latest sound format called Atmos which is a 3d sound format:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/brands/dolby-atmos.html
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I would put Noesis 212RT next to any speaker at any cost. The Noesis 212RT acts as a point source with a concentric and time aligned mid and high frequency coaxial loaded on the horn. They have extreme low distortion (0.30% at 100db THD). The 35hz lowend spec is free air and in room they easily go to 25hz.
The whole reason to go with modern multi-channel is to give everyone on the room a great listening experience. With 2 channel you need to be centered between the speakers to have a good center image however with modern multi-channel you have a center channel speaker that produces all the content that should be centered in the sound stage so everyone in the room hears the centered content directly for the center of the sound stage. We're going to be demo'ing the latest sound format called Atmos which is a 3d sound format:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/brands/dolby-atmos.html
As I mentioned before, the lowest THD I’ve measured from any speaker to date was JTR!
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193161)
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First there were subs :D
Do I see 8 subs up front? "Let's get ready to rumble!"
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:o
Make sure you wear your ear plugs.
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First there were subs :D
Do I see 8 subs up front? "Let's get ready to rumble!"
Yes, 8 (:
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:o
Make sure you wear your ear plugs.
Will do. Thanks for reminding me.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193184)
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It is interesting that JTR also has a pro line. The only other setup I have seen with that many subs was in Abbey Road studios when they were remastering Pink Floyd in immersive audio. Thanks for the pics! Keep them coming :D
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Reminds me of this setup from the studio:
https://www.audioxpress.com/assets/upload/images/1/20170315184923_SennheiserPinkFloydabbeyroad03FrontWeb.jpg
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The whole reason to go with modern multi-channel is to give everyone on the room a great listening experience.
Jeff: Good point than I tend to ignore. My listening/HT room is stereo with dual subwoofers. There's plenty of sound there, and a few acoustical treatments, but there's only one sweet spot. Sounds good--but not as good when more than one of us are watching a movie.
Those are some bad-boy speakers you have there on your website!
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The show is going VERY well !!
Room is crowded ftequestly....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193217)
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Any updates from the show?
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Tommy.....any updates on the show and the feedback? how did the 2 channel demos go?
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Please post any videos too :D
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Please post any videos too :D
AC won't let me post videos....
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The second worst April blizzard in Chicago history was on Sunday, the last day of the show....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193654)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193656)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193659)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193660)
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Outside our room at AXPONA 2019....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193661)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193662)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193663)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193664)
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The $480k Magico based system outside our room (including snake oil speaker cables)....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193665)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193666)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193667)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193668)
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The Cherry Amps....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193669)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193670)
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Crowded room !!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193671)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193672)
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The show is going VERY well !!
Room is crowded ftequestly....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193217)
Here in Belgium we have summer 28°!
That's not normal.
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Thanks for the pics, can you tell us about the demo? What tracks, clips you used, etc. Thanks
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“By far the most ambitious was the well-named Nirvana system. In a room the size of a small commercial cinema it featured speakers by JTR (including eight of its Captivator 2400 ULF subwoofers), amps by the Digital Amplifier Company....”
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/axpona-2019-guide-best-sound
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I was asked to post this to clarify the setup....
After getting set up, we were driving:
the front three: Cherry MEGA MONOs
the rear surrounds: Cherry KING Maraschinos (Desktop version)
The rest of the ear level and elevated surrounds: 2 x 5-CHerry (10 channels total)
So, in total, 15 channels of Cherry Amplifiers!!
Massive pre-summer sale going on now, including all of these amplifiers:
https://myemail.constantcontact.com/-enter-subject-here-.html?soid=1101188089143&aid=FU-pLlkxB6c
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