To vaccinate or not?

macrojack · « **Reply #20 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 12:27 am »

Sts9fan - Is your real name Wallace Shawn?

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #21 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 12:28 am »

Quote from: EDS_ on 2 Nov 2009, 11:55 pm

To any doubters.

1. Right now nearly every case of type-A flu in the US is H1N1. Based on whose data? Not according to the data extracted from the CDC's own website. Read the references above.
1a. According to my doc; more people are sick in the wrong time of year and more people are dying than during a normal "flu" year. Does your doctor have access to ALL the national data? Is he an expert in statistics?
2. Here in Texas we've had a good number of young people die from H1N1 and it's derivative diseases. What derivative diseases? Were they compromised immune systems to begin with and had complications? Too many Diet Cokes or fast foods, perhaps?
3. My son had it as did his room-mate as did my son's girlfriend who attends a different university in a different state. The room-mate was extremely sick, my son was given Tamiflu at the onset of symptoms and was far less sick for less time.
4. IMO the story is being under-reported vis-a-vis it's impact on college campuses. These schools have been slammed with H1N1 - Georgia, St. Louis University (at SLU kids were quarantined) , Baylor, TCU, University of Texas, Rice and I'm sure there are others. Apparently Georgia sent word to students that classes might be shut down - although closure was averted. You seem to be one of those who perpetuates the panic mentality. Healthy people with good immune system have nothing to fear.

bluesky · « **Reply #22 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 12:33 am »

Hi Guys

Our Australian government is undertaking a population wide free vaccination program, so I had the shot when I visited the doctor last time. It really did not hurt and the vaccine itself merely has sections of the virus' DNA, not the whole dead virus. The whole idea of vaccination is that if enough people are vaccinated then it makes it difficult to have a pandemic. As an economic stimulus package it has more worth than some of the other rort ridden schemes we have in Australia at the moment.

Seems pretty reasonable to me at least!

Bluesky

Dan Driscoll · « **Reply #23 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 12:36 am »

Quote from: doorman on 3 Nov 2009, 12:05 am

As of today (Nov. 2/09) there have been 94 confirmed deaths linked to the "swine-flu'in Canada.
"Seasonal flu" deaths to this same period are said to range between 4000-8000!
There's "shenanigans" afoot, folks!
Both my wife and myself have had occasion recently to visit our respective Dr's. on other matters.
Both have denounced the present hysteria, and advised against vaccination!!
Best, Don

The big difference between deaths due to H1N1 and seasonal flu is who is dying.

Most of the victims of seasonal influenza and influenza related pneumonia (usually the actual cause of death) are the elderly and those with serious pre-existing health problems. H1N1 kills kids and pregnant women.

I get a seasonal flu shot every year and will continue to do so. I did have swine flu in the mid-70's, so I may already be at least partially immune. However, if the H1N1 vaccine is made available to everyone I get get it.

ecramer · « **Reply #24 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 12:37 am »

Nope not me i can get it for free at work but i'm mot interested at all.

Ed

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #25 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 12:41 am »

IMO, there's no substitute for a strong immune system. But people love their smokes and alcohol. Kids got have that daily dose of sugar and junk food is staple. And exercise, well that is too much like unpaid work.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #26 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 12:54 am »

Quote from: dangerbird on 2 Nov 2009, 09:29 pm

...I see respected knowledgable physicans (who work with H1N1 patients) step up to get one...

But are they informed or are they just being sheep?

If you haven't seen it, check out this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3XlJB7J5-o

Dan Driscoll · « **Reply #27 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 01:11 am »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 3 Nov 2009, 12:41 am

IMO, there's no substitute for a strong immune system. But people love their smokes and alcohol. Kids got have that daily dose of sugar and junk food is staple. And exercise, well that is too much like unpaid work.

A strong immune system is a good thing. But there's no such thing as a perfect immune system and some illnesses are just to potentially dangerous to risk. Very few people in 1918 were living on junk food and most were probably more physically fit than we are now. Yet the 1918 Spanish Flu (which probably started in Missouri) went around the world in repeated waves, killing 10's of millions, far more than all the soldiers and civilians killed in WWI combined. Worse, the virus mutated several times, so having survived it once was no guaranty of future immunity.

I consider vaccines to be exercise equipment for my immune system. They help build it up and keep in healthy, at a very minimal risk. I suspect that you're probably more likely to hurt yourself exercising than to become ill from a vaccine. Personally, I've never gotten sick from a vaccine, but I've been injured many times while working out or playing sports. I've already had multiple surgeries for exercise & sports related injuries and I'm going to need a total knee replacement soon, probably within 6-12 months.

geezer · « **Reply #28 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 02:30 am »

Quote from: Big Red Machine on 2 Nov 2009, 10:03 pm

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/31/CDC-Says-Kids-That-Die-From-Swine-Flu-Have-Coexisting-Bacterial-Infections.aspx

The other side of the story on Swine flu and what the CDC does not tell the public but can be found on their own website.
Underlying health issues or the onset of pneumonia can be the cause of death but they mark it off as the flu instead.

Why the "need" to vaccinate for such a mild flu? A healthy immune system is my main defense. No vaccinations in my household!!

There is something going on and while scam may not be proper, I lean toward something nefarious somewhere.

What is this "other side of the story"? Many, if not most, stories on swine flu that I have seen on TV or the newspapers do indeed note that the flu is an agent that weakens the immune system so that some other, opportunistic, disease is what kills; often pneumonia. This is public knowledge. It's no secret. That's what the CDC and others have been saying. That's what makes H1N1 deadly.

It is also frequently noted that this flu has milder effects than the seasonal flu, except on those who have some other diseases that weaken their immune system. This too is public knowledge.

Unfortunately, one large class of people have a pre-existing condition that makes them especially susceptible to H1N1: Their youth. A child's immune system is not yet fully developed, and that's one reason most deaths in apparently healthy people occur in that part of the population.

Why should we get vaccinated? or not? I'm reasonably healthy, and furthermore I'm in the age range to have gotten some immunity from similar viruses many years ago, so I'm not worried if I can't get a shot. If I did get the flu it probably would be mild.

But if there were children in my household, or if I were frequently near children or those with illnesses, I would get vaccinated for their sake so as to avoid infecting them. In my view it would be selfish not to get the shot and allow myself to possibly infect someone who might die from effects of the flu.

As suggested in another post, one of the most important uses of vaccines is to avoid, or at least mitigate, a pandemic.

orthobiz · « **Reply #29 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 02:40 am »

As a doctor, I had a choice in my hospital:
Get the vaccine or wear a mask EVERYWHERE.

I got the vaccine 2 weeks ago.
So far no problem, no illness.

Paul

EDS_ · « **Reply #30 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 05:07 am »

Quote from: Big Red Machine on 3 Nov 2009, 12:28 am

Quote from: EDS_ on 2 Nov 2009, 11:55 pm
To any doubters.

1. Right now nearly every case of type-A flu in the US is H1N1. Based on whose data? Not according to the data extracted from the CDC's own website. Read the references above.
1a. According to my doc; more people are sick in the wrong time of year and more people are dying than during a normal "flu" year. Does your doctor have access to ALL the national data? Is he an expert in statistics?
2. Here in Texas we've had a good number of young people die from H1N1 and it's derivative diseases. What derivative diseases? Were they compromised immune systems to begin with and had complications? Too many Diet Cokes or fast foods, perhaps?
3. My son had it as did his room-mate as did my son's girlfriend who attends a different university in a different state. The room-mate was extremely sick, my son was given Tamiflu at the onset of symptoms and was far less sick for less time.
4. IMO the story is being under-reported vis-a-vis it's impact on college campuses. These schools have been slammed with H1N1 - Georgia, St. Louis University (at SLU kids were quarantined) , Baylor, TCU, University of Texas, Rice and I'm sure there are others. Apparently Georgia sent word to students that classes might be shut down - although closure was averted. You seem to be one of those who perpetuates the panic mentality. Healthy people with good immune system have nothing to fear.

I don't have enough time to argue every point. Are pregnant women healthy with good immune systems?
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/10/pregnant-women-h1n1-flu-vaccine.html/comment-page-1

pjchappy · « **Reply #31 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 05:40 am »

Watch out for the political content.

JLM · « **Reply #32 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 09:42 am »

The primary purpose of getting vaccinated is to develop a herd immunity (the phenomenon that once a certain percentage are immunized that the disease can't spread). The reverse effect is found in obtaining a sufficient concentration of uranium 235 to cause a chain reaction. Whether it protects you as an individual or not is secondary (sorry tough guys).

This is all based on solid science. You can choose to believe in science or live on the flat earth. But don't be a hypocrite and pick whatever science is convenient to believe in.

goldlizsts · « **Reply #33 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 10:05 am »

Quote from: Dan Banquer on 3 Nov 2009, 12:21 am

My wife is an R.N. and both of us will be getting vaccinated for the seasonal flu and H1N1.
d.b.

Most people are afraid of taking the needle, believing that it'll ruin them more. So they refuse to get it. There are cases where isolated adversary reaction occur, but rare, statistically.
.
One good reason of getting vaccinated is that you not only can avoid getting hit with the bug, you also avoid passing it to those you come in close contact every day, like your family. It's nice to give to your family, as most people do, unselfishly, but not this kind of generosity.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #34 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 12:11 pm »

It seem like you have to take your chances either way. The vaccine was quickly developed and unproven. Thanks, but no thanks.

ctviggen · « **Reply #35 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 01:10 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 3 Nov 2009, 09:42 am

The primary purpose of getting vaccinated is to develop a herd immunity (the phenomenon that once a certain percentage are immunized that the disease can't spread). The reverse effect is found in obtaining a sufficient concentration of uranium 235 to cause a chain reaction. Whether it protects you as an individual or not is secondary (sorry tough guys).

This is all based on solid science. You can choose to believe in science or live on the flat earth. But don't be a hypocrite and pick whatever science is convenient to believe in.

I
I guess it depends on how you define "science". Smallpox, for instance, was basically eliminated by a combination of isolation and vaccination. Which one (or the combination) worked? For example, if there was solely isolation and not vaccination, would smallpox have been eliminated to the extent it has?

Also, many of the vaccines were developed and given when the outbreak of whatever disease we're discussing was already waning. Did the vaccine help or not? It's unclear.

As for herd immunity, if that's the case, why are there outbreaks in 100% vaccinated populations? See, eg, the following, although many more cites can be given:

http://www.vaccines.me/articles/vvjak-whooping-cough-pertussis-in-the-fully-vaccinated.cfm

Personally, after seeing what the pharmaceutical industry has done with statins, which have a very poor record in long term studies yet are now being touted to be given to CHILDREN, I no longer trust the medical establishment. So, I'm not getting a flu shot.

pearsall001 · « **Reply #36 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 01:28 pm »

Funny how some wouldn't ever consider a new piece of gear that was rushed to market without waiting for reviews, customer feedback, track record for reliability...etc, etc. Yet will stick a needle in themselves with an unproven vaccine for both safety & long term effects that's been rushed to market. The term lemmings comes to mind on this one. Thanks but no thanks!

ctviggen · « **Reply #37 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 01:33 pm »

I also question what the study of this vaccine proved. Did it prove that the persons receiving the vaccine wouldn't get the H1N1 flu? I don't believe so, since you'd need a longer study with a control group. Did it prove that there were no long term effects? No, because it was too short to do that. Further, I believe they compare the new vaccine with the old vaccine, and not with a placebo. In other words, typically, a drug is given to one group under test and a placebo is given to a control group. Ideally, neither the groups nor the doctors know what's in each administered item. In the case of vaccines, I believe the "control group" isn't given a placebo but is given a different vaccine. So, you're comparing adverse effects of one vaccine with another. What does this prove? Not a lot.

BobM · « **Reply #38 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 01:42 pm »

I spoke to my doctor about it yesterday and he said his opinion was superceded by the CDC. He said not to believe the panic-mongers. However it is a land of choice and everyone has their own choices to make. But we will never really know how effective the vaccine is anyway.

Not my chiropractor, who si more into natural medicine says stay away. Understandable for him, I guess. He cites studies that say repeated flu shots are linked to Alzheimers. That's enough to scare me (I'm 50).

If most of the population is getting the new vaccine then the chances of H1N1 spreading are minimized, so fewer people will catch it, whether vaccinated or not. That's all good in my book and works to my benefit whether I get it or not.

My wife is immune deficient (her immune system has no memory so she can catch things like mumps and chicken pox over and over again). As a result we usually get flu shots, but must get the dead shots, not live ones or she can catch it from that.

This year we're not planning to get anything since the shots don't seem to keep the flu away. My system is strong and I rarely get sick, but the kids still catch the flu once or twice over the winter even with the shots.

I'm always wary of conspiracy theory misinformation, but with the power bestowed on Bush and O'Bama these last years I am more wary of governmental mandates and their preponderance to try and over control everything. So I guess I'm saying I don't know what to believe, so I will wait and see how things develop.

Bob

woodsyi · « **Reply #39 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 02:10 pm »

My wife and our 7 year old daughter are going in today to get both shots. We planned it in advance as kids are out on the election day. I don't normally get flu shots but I think I may just get them this year when they are available. I can't afford to miss work and I have been told that I have to stay away from work for the sake of others this year. I will wait until the "needy" get their chance first though.

Poll

Do you plan on getting vaccinated for H1N1?

To vaccinate or not?