AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: bbchem on 13 Oct 2006, 12:10 pm
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:lol: :duh:
Hi, I already emailed Louis this strange request, but since the latest industry Kudos is going to Zu a small single point source/supertweeter company I thought that maybe Louis should consider a floor stander with a super tweeter to compete with the Zu bunch??
JUst a crazy thought
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:nono: I would suggest you listen to the highs of the Visaton B200 Driver that Louis uses. You do not guild a lily, you do not put Angeli Joulie in a Burkha, and you do not need to add a tweeter to Louis's Omega speakers.
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aa
Which model Omega??
Have you heard the Zu??
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The model Omega is the Revolutions, a floor standing aperiodic loaded single driver speaker using the Visaton B200 Driver.
I have heard the Zu Druid at a Chicago Audio Society meeting. I found the people at Zu to be committed, knowledgeable, and passionate about their speakers. I also found the Zu Druid to be a completely different animal from the Omega's.
Single driver speakers have a magic about them. If you fall under their spell,then there is nothing that comes close to conveying the emotion of the music. If single driver speaker's do not stir your emotions then all you will hear is their limitations, of which of course exist.
I believe the joy and the fun of this hobby is that there are many ways to reach sonic bliss. The fact that I prefer one way over another, in no way diminishes my respect and admiration for those manufactures and consumers who choose another.
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:lol:
I own a pair of Super3R Alnicos and think Louis is a genius, All I was asking is, since so much coverage and awards are going to the Zus, that maybe there can be a comparable Omega which you have described as the Revolution. I am looking into maybe buying a floor standing model ,and would consider these.
Thanks, Bill
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:lol:
I own a pair of Super3R Alnicos and think Louis is a genius, All I was asking is, since so much coverage and awards are going to the Zus, that maybe there can be a comparable Omega which you have described as the Revolution. I am looking into maybe buying a floor standing model ,and would consider these.
Thanks, Bill
Your top of the line floorstanding options are the Max Hemp and Revolution. The Revolution uses the B200 driver in the aperiodic cabinet, and the Max Hemp uses the 8" Hemp Cone in a similar sized but rear ported bass reflex cabinet. I suspect both are quite special.
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aa
Which model Omega??
Have you heard the Zu??
I had the Zu Tones (they have the supertweeter) in my house for a day. I preferred my A8's. Have no trouble hearing "brushes on cymbals" and up on the Omegas. Thought the A8's sounded more natural.
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Isn't this rather insulting to Zu? (To ask another vendor to undercut them, as if they're overpriced?) Why not ask Chinese prisoners or hobbists that do it for beer money to do it instead (if you really want a low price)? This thread puts Louis in a very awkward position, it should be deleted (by the "head moderator, whoever that is).
Until Zu sells raw drivers, its a mute point anyway. If you want their stuff, be willing to pay for the R & D, awards, etc. If the price is too high for you, look elsewhere.
And besides, other vendors offer two-way designs, even high efficiency stuff, if that is what you want.
As said above, that's not Louis' thing.
BTW, I own the "grown up" version of your drivers, and don't know if I'd trade them for any of the high efficiency offerings out there. (Your's need a sub, mine don't for nearly all music.) I went a slightly different route because, even though I greatly respect Louis, his cabinetry, and what he can do with various single drivers; I wanted full range and transmission line design.
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JlM,
If you notice, this post has not dignified a response from the man himself. That's smart on his part. I agree with you.
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Ditto
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bbchem,
We are talking about a small company of very dedicated entusiasts over at Zu. I came across their website a while ago. These guys have probably put everything on the line here, and probably logged a lot of hours for minimal financial reward to launch a new company. To suggest what you are suggesting is not healthy to say the least. If someone where to come along and aid in their demise in an unfair way, it would set a precedent that other entrepeneurs in audio would use as a reminder to stay where it is financially safe and not venture out into the "dog eat dog" world of audio, and perhaps deny us all of the next " greatest thing since sliced bread".
Pause for thought about the big picture. :?
Cheers
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Well, having owned the Druids, they are a fine speaker and the price of $2800 (what I paid at the time, I don't know if they've gone up) is quite fair and reasonable. For me, in this high end audio hobby, to pay more than $3,000 mfor a pair of speakers seems somehow excessive. The definitions, at $9,000/pair are something I would never consider, even on the used market. I loved how I could use the Druids with just about any source of amplification, and they were fun speakers to own. Since there are no audio stores where I live in Tucson, and the ones in Phoenix have been problematic and snooty when I have driven up there to listen tomaudio gear, I guess I have, or had, given over a lot of my audio evaluation to Srajen at 6 moons. Somehow I figured that his owning the premier audio review website and getting to listen to lots of great and expensive equipment, HE should know. Thus, before the Druids, I owned a pair of Gallo Reference 3's, which are an interesting speaker and, if you like their detailed sound, are great. The guy I sold mine to locally still loves them. But, I think that I have come to realize that Srajen's tastes in audio are not the same as mine. Plus, he gets to use a lot of superior amps, preamps, IC's, etc., that are way beyond my budget to evaluate speakers like the Druids, so he is hearing different sound than me.
Now, for the suggestion that Louis create a Druid 'clone' that would be lower in cost...well, if Louis can do it, and wants to sell them for less, THAT"S THE NATURE OF THE MARKETPLACE...yes, Shawn and Adam at Zu work hard have created something wonderful, but what about those 'gainclone' chip amps that basically rip-off audio designer Kenji Kamura at 47 Laboratories who created the original Gaincards? Apple's iPod currently still rules the roost, but there are a whole lotta aspirants who want to knock them off with a cheaper product...but some people will only be satisfied with an iPod, until they become passe, just because they are more desirable, or better sounding, or better quality...or not. That's the market. That's what drives innovation. To suggest that we all back down from allowing competition to these fine, hard working young guys at Zu is ludicrous...I'll bet that they are hard at work at Druid Mark V, or even a new product, because thats what you have to do to stay competative...So, Louis, show us what you can do in a floorstanding, highly sensitive single driver/super tweeter speaker, because I'd love to hear what you would create, and might even buy a pair.
Why did I sell my Druids? Well, over the time I owned them, without realizing it, I found myself constantly tweaking my system (tube preamps, tube rolling, IC's) to try and bring some warmth to to the sound. The Druids, in the Chinese 5 element scheme of things, are Metal, rather than Earth, and there is a subtle steely sound to them that I was unconsciously trying to change. After my journey to see Richard in Ojai, and experiencing the magic of Open Baffles, I decided to sell the Druids and pursue OB's for a fraction of the cost of the Druids. I also have heard Louis' Omega Grande 8's at Richards, and I think that Omega speakers belong in the 'Earth' category, with an organic wearm th that sounds wonderful to me. And thats why I would be very interested in what Louis would create in a Druid type speaker...and if it costs less, than so be it, Louis is a great guy and works very hard too...
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No- Louis should continue to do his own thing and persue his own vision. Thats what makes this hobby special.
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Anyone whom has heard Louis' stuff knows they don't require tweeters. I tried the Super Hemps with the outstanding Visaton horntweeter, and it didn't add enough "air" for me to leave them there. The hemp's tweet range treble sparkles with such musical warmth, it makes me wonder why anyone builds tweeters.
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:lol: :P
Gentlemen, I meant only good things for both, this is a compliment to both Louis and Zu, I was only asking Louis for a speaker that had a super tweeter ,because that it what the new marketing for these types is asking for. I have studied peoples feelings about Single point and the new evolutionary trend is to want something extra like in a new auto, car manufacturers always plan to add something extra in newer models to entice people to buy their product, its the law of nature to improve. How many commercials do you see on TV that say "new and improved?"?? Hundreds and thousands, I have polled several people who are looking for these type of speakers whether or not the perception of adding a SuperTweeter is real or not does not matter, these people will feel better with one on their speakers. I have used separate ones in the past and found they added a certain ambiance which can't be described. As far as the price it is always a good policy to try and build things as cost efficient as possible, undercutting is happening all the time in this field, as competition gets heated up. Several reasonably priced product have made stereophiles list that are many times lest costly than others.What your are saying is like saying there should only be one two loudspeaker or one three way loudspeaker or one planar loudspeaker, of course Louis could not duplicate the Zus, but if he wanted to he could build in a Super Tweeter if so inclined, there are hundreds of two and three way speakers and they are not the same. They also cost all different prices. There are also some other manufacturers that have added Super tweeter in kits or assembled
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*didn't read the thread*
In answer to the thread title....no Louis should not....he has to have respect for intellectual property if he hopes others to respect his too.
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*didn't read the thread*
In answer to the thread title....no Louis should not....he has to have respect for intellectual property if he hopes others to respect his too.
I didn't read him as having meant that, but maybe I was being too generous. The idea of running a full-range driver without a crossover on it, with a supertweeter on top with a low pass filter, is _not_ something zu thought up. It's been around in the diy community for a while, and I who knows how long it's been around, but longer than zu, anyway (this isn't to knock zu, by any means). There's no reason someone else can't build one.
I know of at least one speaker maker who likes to make fostex f200a speakers with a ribbon tweeter. Haven't gotten a chance to hear one yet, but I'm looking forward to it.
So suggesting that Louis build a larger speaker with an 8" or 10" full range driver and a supertweeter isn't necessarily asking him to rip anyone off. :)
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*didn't read the thread*
In answer to the thread title....no Louis should not....he has to have respect for intellectual property if he hopes others to respect his too.
I'd think intellectual property infers to legal rights. Building a speaker like another probably has no legal restrictions, so let it rip and that is how the audio world evolves
steve
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:D :D
Thanks you all above very much. This has blown way out of proportion, all I was asking was to build a floorstanding speaker with a super tweeter on it that simple!!! No one is asking him to copy the actual Zu speaker and drivers, etc: only to make something that style. I am new to Omega and don't know if Louis ever built one like that :thumb:
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Absolutely! a super-tweeter is a great idea and no rip-off of Zu. Look at the new Onix Mini designed by Donny Ritchie, looks just like a VMPS 626r with a powered woofer underneath. Is that trespassing on "intelectual property"? I think not. Blatant though. :wink:
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Super-tweeter/Super-man/Super-nova/Super-ior/Super-natural/Super-lative/Super-ego/Super-abundant
Many of the words that begin with "super" are born from the etymologies not only of the large...
which is self-evident... but from the wish to create a category that touches the very limits
of what is possible within a certain given dimension ~
Advertising is very effective at using words like "super" to create a psychologically favorable
attitude toward some product or other... and as a society we have been "trained" to respond
to this kind of "conditioning" in a somewhat predictable fashion ~
So the idea of a "super" tweeter seems like a good thing... more than that... it suggests the
"ultimate" tweeter... who would not want to have the ultimate of something?
Me... I would not want the ultimate tweeter... because frankly I don't like the artificial "extra"
signal strength that a "super" tweeter generates... I listen to live un-amplified music... and there
is no "super" high frequency being heard there... only real instruments creating real music, in a
real space ~
What I hear in my home audio system comes dangerously close to that experience... I have no
wish for "the more" simply because there is some technology that can create it... it is the
"illusion" of the real that I crave ~
So there are other words that begin with "super"... Super-ficial and Super-fluous for example ~
I have heard the Zu speakers on several occasions... and Louis Chochos has nothing to worry
about in my humble opinion ~
Warm Regards ~ Richard ~
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Supertweeter, of course, simply refers to a driver confined to the highest frequency reproduction. Unless your "unamplified "music has no cymbals, violins, guitars, horns etc. then yes the super tweeter will be heard there. Real music in real space does use the upper octave, my friend. If your music consists of a thud with velvet wrapped hammers and low register bass strings, then maybe not. I wouldn't care for a system that cannot play the whole register and music restrained to the lower octaves must be painfully sonorous.
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I have the Omega Super 3 Bipoles and they do not seem to be lacking in high frequency response, in fact they reproduce cymbals extremely well. What is the point of having a speaker that reproduces higher frequencies than the human ear can hear? The super tweeter is perhaps just another gizmo to lure potential customers but in reality has no pragmatic purpose.
Raja
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I have the Omega Super 3 Bipoles and they do not seem to be lacking in high frequency response, in fact they reproduce cymbals extremely well. What is the point of having a speaker that reproduces higher frequencies than the human ear can hear? The super tweeter is perhaps just another gizmo to lure potential customers but in reality has no pragmatic purpose.
Raja
Generally, when a supertweeter is used with a full range driver, it is crossed over very high, but well within the range of human hearing, which is somewhere around 20k. The idea is that large drivers have problems with "beaminess" or directionality at high levels, amongst other problems, and, in many cases, can't reproduce them at all above, say 12k.
Hence, the popularity, for instance, of supertweeters sitting on top of fostex horn speakers.
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Richard- that was a super post.
In general, sometimes it's not the speaker but the room that might benefit from a supertweeter. The room I have my home theater in has 8' tall drapes with blackout shade behind them, thick carpet and a lot of soft furniture. Can you say dead? I think it would be easier to buy a st at Radio Shack than to ask Louis to build a model.
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At some point in my audio listening experience I began to hear the separate divisions that multi-driver
speakers generated as they crossed over each other in an attempt to blend their distinct frequencies
into a cohesive musical picture... or perhaps it was the cognitive function of the brain unmasking
the subtle faults in the "illusion" of each driver attempting to blend together that was somehow being
triggered... or perhaps it was a simple response to listening very carefully that began to reveal that
something was not quite right... something artificial that was being introduced into the fabric of the
illusion of a cohesive "picture" of the music that the brain could no longer "suspend" or "justify" ~
That is one issue ~
The other issue that significantly impacts on my audio listening experience is whether or not
I think I detect some frequency range that appears to be spotlighted... I am not ordinarily
looking for some kind of frequency anomaly... I am speaking of something that would impose
itself on my listening experience because of its unmistakable emphasis... not because I have a
predilection to being overly analytical ~
Let us put aside the problems that are implicit when individual drivers attempt to blend together
to create a seamless musical picture... at least for the moment ~
And let us look at what happens when a listener detects an exaggeration in the upper frequencies...
Obviously, the information that is presented there would be given emphasis ~
When Deb and I began our listening journey to reacquaint ourselves with what was available in
the world of audio several years ago (Deb is such a good sport, god bless her) what we found
across the board... especially with American Speakers... was that the upper frequencies were
generally tilted up... the effect of this was a presentation that appeared on first hearing to
have extraordinary detail... and the "wow" factor at hearing things like cymbals shimmering
over the pulse of the music ~
It was only when we began to extend our auditions that it became clear that tilting-up the higher
frequencies resulted in a fatiguing and artificial musical experience... for most listeners however,
the tilted-up presentation did the trick... they purchased the speakers feeling that they had found
what they were looking for... a "hi-fidelity" experience ~
Deb and I have heard a great many speakers since then... and a great many amps and other
audio gear in all sorts of combinations ~
At some point we began to crave a "simple" musical presentation that made no demands
what-so-ever on our nerves and our cognitive retrieval functions... our sense of needing to
suspend the "artificial" in order for the brain to reinterpret what it was hearing as the real ~
That is when I began to explore single driver speakers and low watt SET amplifiers... and that
is how I eventually hooked up with Louis Chochos ~
It sounds, onemug, as if your room does need some kind of compensation for all of the
highly absorbing material affecting the sound... and that is a valid consideration ~
If more audio enthusiasts turn to home theater options like you are using, then they will have to
forgo the single driver option ~
rajacat is hearing what I am hearing... a very satisfying upper frequency musical life that rivals
any "super" tweeter presentation while maintaining a wonderful coherency ~
As a society, we are obsessed with the "more"... Dan Mason, in his wisdom, likes to quote
Mies van der Rohe's dictum that "less=more"... that is the effective aesthetic that makes single-driver
speaker solutions so elegant... over time... and after a long search for the magic that is possible in
audio... some very sensitive listeners finally discover the magic of single-driver speakers
and SET tube amplifiers... and their search ends... and their musical life takes on an
entirely different dimension... the dimension of the "real"... or at least what feels like a living
musical event unfolding in ones living spaces... and ones mind ~
Warm Regards ~ Richard ~
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My Omega speakers don't have any lack of high frequency detail or accuracy. It seems that most folks with Omega speakers don't see the need for a second, high frequency driver ("super" or otherwise). The rationale for having one seems to be a) marketing ("Brand X" has one, and they are getting good press), b) prejudice (It's a "super" tweeter, so it must be an improvement), or c) distorting speaker performance to suit a bad acoustic space (rather than improving the room acoustics, which will certainly benefit overall performance more than a "super" tweeter).
None of these rationales has anything to do with actually improving the sound of the loudspeaker.
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I don't think anybody's suggesting Louis should abandon his current line of speakers in favor of one model featuring a supertweeter. Rather, the idea is that implementing a hi-pass tweeter in ONE model could add to the potential customer base.
Who knows why, but treble-tipped speakers are popular. If enough people think that sound is right, the marketplace will go that direction. Commercially available speakers are that way because people buy them.
I can certainly understand if Louis chooses not to produce such a speaker for his own reasons. And, maybe most customers will be perfectly happy without a supertweeter. But, there are lots of sparkleheads out there that might consider Omega if only they had just a little extra sizzle on top.
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Perhaps the popularity of super tweeters can be correlated to the aging male audiophile population and demographically associated hearing loss at higher frequencies.
Deep bass response has lost popularity due to cost, space, and lease breaking; so going the other way makes some sense (to get your audiophile rocks off) and follows what the Europeans have been doing for decades before us Yanks.
Frankly I don't know if Louis could undercut Zu as his workmanship is better and his overhead isn't cheap.
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Perhaps the posters who are suggesting that the Omegas could be improved with the addition of a super tweeter have never seriously auditioned a properly set up and powered pair of Omegas. :wink:
Raja
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:lol: :thumb: aa
GENTLEMEN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR HEATED BUT THOUGHT PROVOKING REPLYS, DIDN'T KNOW THAT IT WOULD CAUSE SUCH A STIR BOTH WAYS, IT SHOWS THAT US AUDIOPHILES ARE VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT THE HOBBY. I HAVE PURCHASED A PAIR OF SUPER TWEETERS FOR MY SUPER 3R ALNICO'S (WHICH I LOVE THE MOST OF MY 30 PREVIOUS MAJORBRAND PAIRS OF LOUDSPEAKERS FOR THEIR NATURAL UNCOLORED UN ADDED OR SUBTRACTED SOUND), BUT NONE THE LESS, MY INTENSE CURIOUSITY WARRANTED THE ST PURCHASE, AND I WILL TELL YOU IF IT HELPS OR HURTS WHEN I GET THEM. IN THE MEAN TIME, I WAS LOOKING FOR A FLOOR STANDING FULL RANGE SPEAKER, AND THOUGHT IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE A SUPER SUPERTWEETER LIKE THE ZU'S AND SEVERAL OTHER MANUFACTURERS OFFER CURRENTLY. THERE IS AN OLD SAYING >> " PERCEPTION IS REALITY" WHICH MEANS THAT IF YOU BELIEVE IT MIGHT BE BETTER THATS ALL THAT MATTERS! LIKE THE SONG >> "ANTICIPATION"
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"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication": Leonardo DaVinci
Warm Regards ~ Richard ~
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Wow,
This is very interesting and I do have to say this. I know in my heart that bbchem was looking for exactly what he posted. I have added a supertweeter before on G8s and other companies have as well. There is nothing wrong with it. I do think it's a lot more fun to add it afterwards and there are a lot of great ones out there. I have spent a great deal of time on the Hemp drivers and the wizzers to be able to get quite a lot of high freq. energy. I try my best to keep them one way.
That said I have to say that I consider Sean and Adam at ZU to be friends of mine and I look forward to seeing them at the RMAF. I would never ever try to copy there’s or anyone else’s design ever.
Thanks again,
Louis
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bbchem,
Everyone has their own take on things. Personally, my philosophy is a slightly different take than the one you describe, mine is " there is reality, then your perception of it". It takes into account the individual.
As far as tweeters are concerned, I also agree that too many speakers today seem to have an exaggerated top end. It is something that can be seductive, but ultimately, wears on our ears, hence the term fatigue. How could something detailed be fatiguing? Wouldn't it be the other way around? :o
The same holds true for low frequency as well, a lot of speakers are not quite right down low either.
Not all of it is speakers, a lot of popular music, contains a lot of emphasis that shouldn't be there, both high and low.
Richard, rajacat, I'm in the same camp with you as well on this one. Neutral might not have the same sex appeal, but I much prefer neutral.
Cheers
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How is it wrong for another company (besides Zu) to sell a large extended range driver with a supertweeter?
It's not like anyone wants Louis to mimic the druid...