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Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Hypex Owners Circle => Topic started by: OzarkTom on 22 Sep 2014, 02:20 am

Title: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 22 Sep 2014, 02:20 am
NAD NC400 amp for $3K.

http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M22-Stereo-Power-Amplifier

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-m7m1NDQK3Yv/p_745M22/NAD-Masters-Series-M22.html

NAD's M22 power amplifier is the first nCore-based model from a mass-market company. Unlike competition from Acoustic Imagery, Merrill Audio, Jeff Rowland and Mola-Mola which get $10'000/pr and more for equivalent monos, the NAD stereo amp sells for $3'000. "We have our own nCore module developed in close cooperation with Hypex. It is based on the NC400 not the 1200 but this is not a qualitative difference. It only affects power output.  We can do this because we will build and sell a lot of units. The 1200 was developed primarily for the pro market where huge power is required. In the Hypex 400 module continuous power is 200W@8 and 400W@4. In our implementation it is 250W@8/4 controlled by Erik Edvardsen’s precision clipper circuit. The benefit of this approach is the ability to offer much more short term or dynamic power where we have 350 @8 and 600W@4. This makes the power in actual use seem greater than the spec – in typical NAD tradition!" Inputs are selectable on RCA or XLR.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: strateahed on 22 Sep 2014, 05:19 pm
It'll be interesting to see reviews from early adopters. Thanks for sharing OzarkTom. 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: drubin on 23 Sep 2014, 03:38 pm
Somebody needs to hear one of these and compare to our DIY builds. Crutchfield, with it's 60-day return privilege, makes it mighty tempting.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: macrojack on 23 Sep 2014, 05:23 pm
Somebody needs to hear one of these and compare to our DIY builds. Crutchfield, with it's 60-day return privilege, makes it mighty tempting.

I nominate Dan Rubin. He has the skill set, the experience, the level head, the flawless taste and the idea. Who better to carry this ingenious pursuit through to a conclusive outcome for the Audio Circle community? Go Dan!!
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Sep 2014, 07:13 pm
I nominate Dan Rubin. He has the skill set, the experience, the level head, the flawless taste and the idea. Who better to carry this ingenious pursuit through to a conclusive outcome for the Audio Circle community? Go Dan!!
Yeah, buy a pair and pass them around for 6 months.   :D
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: drubin on 23 Sep 2014, 07:20 pm
Who wants to be the angel investor for this project?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Sep 2014, 07:34 pm
Who wants to be the angel investor for this project?
In the past the same guy that has passed them around also funded it. 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: drubin on 23 Sep 2014, 07:41 pm
In the past the same guy that has passed them around also funded it.
Sounds like a winning business model to me.  :wink:
How about if each tour stop pays a rental fee plus shipping to the next stop?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Sep 2014, 07:48 pm
Sounds like a winning business model to me.  ;)
How about if each tour stop pays a rental fee plus shipping to the next stop?
Not how it was done the last time.  Lay it on the line!
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: macrojack on 23 Sep 2014, 08:00 pm
Jason - In fairness, this is a somewhat different situation in that, as someone mentioned, Crutchfield is making them available on a more or less free trial basis. The NC 400s you shared were virtually unheard of at the time. In fact, I hope the Hypex crowd appreciates how you put your investment out there on their behalf.

Dan - I'm sorry for setting you up like that.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Don_S on 23 Sep 2014, 08:32 pm
Not how it was done the last time.  Lay it on the line!

What is that supposed to mean?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Sep 2014, 08:46 pm
What is that supposed to mean?
Read this (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105395.0) and this (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108239.0). 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: cab on 23 Sep 2014, 09:18 pm
Interesting that NAD chose Hypex when then are several other modules out now that are getting some great reviews. Perhaps ncore is still the king of the hill...
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: drubin on 23 Sep 2014, 09:27 pm
My hesitation on even trying this this is partly due to having taken a flyer on the C390DD. Exciting technology, good reviews, very disappointing product, with enough operational quirkiness to make me wonder about today's NAD. But I'm gullible and, golly, hope springs eternal, plus the M22 is nice looking. Seems like at $3K, this must be a dumbed-down version of the NC400 with only one of the power supplies. Add a sprinkle of NAS secret sauce, a decent cabinet, and what do you end up with? I suppose it could sound as good or better than the units we all built, but how likely is that?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: barrows on 23 Sep 2014, 09:49 pm
Hmmm...  Cool of NAD to make this step and come up with enough capitol to fund a special new (and probably exclusive) OEM Ncore implementation.  I wonder if this version uses the discrete input stage from the NC-400, the IC input stage from the NC-1200 OEM modules, or something different.
I also wonder if it is direct coupled like the NC-400, or capacitor coupled like the uCD modules.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Occam on 23 Sep 2014, 10:30 pm
Per Nad's website -
http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M22-Stereo-Power-Amplifier
Quote
The all-discrete driver and output stage have also been improved for lower open-loop THD as well as lower idling losses, normally conflicting requirements with conventional IC driver circuitry.
They seem quite proud and specifically mention discrete circuitry in the driver and output stages, and assume if the input was discrete and not IC based, they would have mentioned it. That's here nor there as to subjective quality, given the subjective preference for the IC input NC1200 over the discrete input NC400.

Quote
The amp is DC coupled throughout, from input to output, there is no capacitor in the forward signal path.
DC coupled input to output [but caps in the feedback path?]

FWIW
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: PRELUDE on 23 Sep 2014, 11:20 pm
I cannot understand what was the concept behind this product!
It is overpriced and most likely won't gain a good place in the market and will live a short life. If it does, more power to them or you might think I am crazy to call it overpriced but this is how I look at it.
Let's forget about the few companies that try to sell this for $10k for a moment. It seems like the $10k is a new target price for this companies and nothing cheaper make them any happier.
NAD, this British company(originally) never meant to be a product for hi-fi but mid-fi or even lower. Back in the old days when they were in England, some of their integrated amps were really a good value for the money when you compare them with the same class stuff in the market.
You always could find better receivers and pre or power amps for the same money if you take your time and look around. They even  made number of tape decks which was nothing but junk.
In mid 90's they moved to Taiwan and they had a lot of problems with quality control over the years. You can ask who ever was the dealer and they will tell you the number of units that customers were bringing them back for issues.
Now in this days, even Taiwan is too expensive for them and they moved the whole factory to China.
Audio advisor has it as well with 30 days return policy. Here is the link and if you zoom the picture of the back of the amp, you can see the made in China at the left hand corner.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/NAD-M22-Master-Series-Stereo-Amplifier/productinfo/NAM22/#.VCHp4kZATIU
This is the most basic module most likely and assembled under the cheap labor in China. Nothing really special about the box which is made out of sheet metal. So is this what you would like to pay $3k for?
I think if anyone  is interested in this amp, should buy the kit with better quality parts and make a nice heavy box out of aluminum for it, and even if it cost the same money or less(which would be most likely)would be the better value for money as well the product.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Don_S on 23 Sep 2014, 11:52 pm
I knew all about the previous graciousness from Dan.  My point was why did you expect Dan to spend $3000 and do it all over again?  :scratch:

Read this (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105395.0) and this (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108239.0).
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Sep 2014, 12:25 am
I knew all about the previous graciousness from Dan.  My point was why did you expect Dan to spend $3000 and do it all over again?  :scratch:
Who is dan?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: ClefChef on 24 Sep 2014, 02:53 am
I cannot understand what was the concept behind this product!
It is overpriced and most likely won't gain a good place in the market and will live a short life. If it does, more power to them or you might think I am crazy to call it overpriced but this is how I look at it.
Let's forget about the few companies that try to sell this for $10k for a moment. It seems like the $10k is a new target price for this companies and nothing cheaper make them any happier.
NAD, this British company(originally) never meant to be a product for hi-fi but mid-fi or even lower. Back in the old days when they were in England, some of their integrated amps were really a good value for the money when you compare them with the same class stuff in the market.
You always could find better receivers and pre or power amps for the same money if you take your time and look around. They even  made number of tape decks which was nothing but junk.
In mid 90's they moved to Taiwan and they had a lot of problems with quality control over the years. You can ask who ever was the dealer and they will tell you the number of units that customers were bringing them back for issues.
Now in this days, even Taiwan is too expensive for them and they moved the whole factory to China.
Audio advisor has it as well with 30 days return policy. Here is the link and if you zoom the picture of the back of the amp, you can see the made in China at the left hand corner.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/NAD-M22-Master-Series-Stereo-Amplifier/productinfo/NAM22/#.VCHp4kZATIU
This is the most basic module most likely and assembled under the cheap labor in China. Nothing really special about the box which is made out of sheet metal. So is this what you would like to pay $3k for?
I think if anyone  is interested in this amp, should buy the kit with better quality parts and make a nice heavy box out of aluminum for it, and even if it cost the same money or less(which would be most likely)would be the better value for money as well the product.

Agree. For under $2k you can assemble your own world class amp in the best chassis using best components.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Folsom on 24 Sep 2014, 03:33 am
Not everyone is into DIY.

If Hypex direct sold instead of charging the big cash for their modules, the thing wouldn't probably cost less than $2k anyway. The markup is reasonable by NAD if they pay anything near what we would for Hypex modules. We don't know how many PSU's it features.

Is the case steel/partially? Sure... Do you own the equipment to make those cases? F no. You don't.

This mentality of thinking everyone is a crook that doesn't give you their shit at cost is something I can't wait to die out largely as baby boomers die. It's literally crushed small businesses in communities and now national/international for many years.

$10k, well I'm not sure where you get another $7k in markup from, maybe it's correct, but I can understand a discrepancy with that potential since you can't do too much to the Ncore boards for upgrades.

If anything when I first looked at this, I thought, good a reasonably priced Ncore for those that want a warranty and no DIY or custom work.



Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: srb on 24 Sep 2014, 04:14 am
The M22 has greater headroom than the NC400/SMPS600 (according to NAD), has both balanced XLR and single-ended RCA inputs, a 12V trigger and a 3 year warranty.

The casework looks nicer than the majority of the DIY nCore projects that I've seen posted here, and has a very nice vent detail.

A nice effort and it seems to be competitively priced in the marketplace.

Would love to see a photo of the internals.

Steve
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: DustyC on 24 Sep 2014, 05:45 am
NAD is doing some forward thinking and offering some real "new" products as opposed to the typical improvements rolled out by the high end boutique firms. After looking at the feature set offered by the C390DD and giving it a listen with CD's I unloaded my tube and solid state gear to get one.
Future "preamps" will be simply DAC's with volume control, balance, etc. with the signal staying in the digital domain for amplification or running a conventional amp (like the Ncore). Hypex seems to be getting some real traction in the OEM market with some high end firms (Rogue comes to mind), enabling them to offer high power with reasonable cost.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jonbee on 24 Sep 2014, 02:05 pm
NAD is doing some forward thinking and offering some real "new" products as opposed to the typical improvements rolled out by the high end boutique firms. Future "preamps" will be simply DAC's with volume control, balance, etc. with the signal staying in the digital domain for amplification or running a conventional amp (like the Ncore). Hypex seems to be getting some real traction in the OEM market with some high end firms (Rogue comes to mind), enabling them to offer high power with reasonable cost.
+1
I sold my preamp and use an M51 DAC/pre with my N-core. It is an excellently designed and great sounding unit. NAD is making real attempts at developing new ideas. Their n-core is a real contribution, bringing that great sound to the non-DIY market. I think the price is very reasonable considering that the casework and warrantee both add real value.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Sep 2014, 02:11 pm
I have the plan. :D I will throw in $100, if we get 29 more here to throw in $100, I will order one and we can put it on a tour for everyone else here to  listen and compare to their own amps. :thumb:
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: rockadanny on 24 Sep 2014, 02:26 pm
Quote
This mentality of thinking everyone is a crook that doesn't give you their shit at cost is something I can't wait to die out largely as baby boomers die. It's literally crushed small businesses in communities and now national/international for many years.

Would love to see factual basis for this comment.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jonbee on 24 Sep 2014, 03:33 pm
I have the plan. :D I will throw in $100, if we get 29 more here to throw in $100, I will order one and we can put it on a tour for everyone else here to  listen and compare to their own amps. :thumb:
I'd do that. Who gets the amp at the end?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: drubin on 24 Sep 2014, 03:37 pm
I'd do that. Who gets the amp at the end?
Doesn't matter. If won't be working by that time anyway.  :lol:
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: mr_bill on 24 Sep 2014, 03:50 pm
I'd do that. Who gets the amp at the end?

Do a drawing at the end from the $100 donor list.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Sep 2014, 04:16 pm
Doesn't matter. If won't be working by that time anyway.  :lol:
As I've proved (twice) it can be done.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Sep 2014, 04:20 pm
I'd do that. Who gets the amp at the end?

We could either have a drawing or sell the amp on the used market, providing it is still in one piece, and split he funds back. That should be a refund of $70-75.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: mr_bill on 24 Sep 2014, 04:44 pm
We could either have a drawing or sell the amp on the used market, providing it is still in one piece, and split he funds back. That should be a refund of $70-75.

I thought about reselling it too, but then you have to disburse the funds and in a sense have a fiscal agent.  I wouldn't want that job but someone might.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Sep 2014, 04:47 pm
I thought about reselling it too, but then you have to disburse the funds and in a sense have a fiscal agent.  I wouldn't want that job but someone might.

It would be a Paypal gift.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: mr_bill on 24 Sep 2014, 04:50 pm
That could be simple then - just need the accounts and a trustworthy contact to head it up.  You could also give them $100 for their troubles.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Folsom on 24 Sep 2014, 06:28 pm
Would love to see factual basis for this comment.

You must be joking? I was just at a farmers market listening to some old lady tell her granddaughter to check all the prices for buying. Heh, I can tell you they're all the same excluding a few special varieties, and occasionally the organic stuff might be a tiny bit different in price. Her reply? "No I'm not doing that, I'd be here for hours and hours....." so on. When do you NOT see this?

Factual basis? The 1970's. A decade of pressing coupons on people, along with personal responsibility of the environment etc to alleviate the pressure on the industries producing more than all non-industrial participants in the state.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: barrows on 24 Sep 2014, 06:45 pm
Salis Audio is correct.  The folks who claim they are being ripped off by companies charging too much clearly have never sat in a product development meeting at a small company and discussed retail pricing structures, cost of goods, cost of keeping a small business running, and margins.
Until one is intimately involved in the running of a small business which actually produces a physical product, I would suggest it might be wise to respect those who do understand such things as the costs of keeping a business running, pricing structures, and appropriate margins.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Folsom on 24 Sep 2014, 07:24 pm
Salis Audio is correct.  The folks who claim they are being ripped off by companies charging too much clearly have never sat in a product development meeting at a small company and discussed retail pricing structures, cost of goods, cost of keeping a small business running, and margins.
Until one is intimately involved in the running of a small business which actually produces a physical product, I would suggest it might be wise to respect those who do understand such things as the costs of keeping a business running, pricing structures, and appropriate margins.

Especially when it isn't backed by enough money that its success is only an ego goal associated with the believability in ideology of a small, local, business or whatever.

Put it to you this way, there's one coffee shop and several clothing places where I live that don't have to make profit, ever, but want to due to their mentality. It makes it hard for everyone else that does have to turn a profit to survive. Pet projects, if you will, for bored rich people.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: strateahed on 24 Sep 2014, 07:31 pm
The M22 has greater headroom than the NC400/SMPS600 (according to NAD), has both balanced XLR and single-ended RCA inputs, a 12V trigger and a 3 year warranty.

The casework looks nicer than the majority of the DIY nCore projects that I've seen posted here, and has a very nice vent detail.

A nice effort and it seems to be competitively priced in the marketplace.


Steve

+1
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: rockadanny on 24 Sep 2014, 09:31 pm
Quote
You must be joking?

No I was not joking. That is why I asked. I was curious as to the basis for your anticipation of the supposed death of an attitude by the death of specific age-class of human beings. Whether it was anecdotal or scientifically based. Now I know.  :roll:

Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Folsom on 24 Sep 2014, 10:07 pm
No I was not joking. That is why I asked. I was curious as to the basis for your anticipation of the supposed death of an attitude by the death of specific age-class of human beings. Whether it was anecdotal or scientifically based. Now I know.  :roll:

The professional world of sociology consists more of immoral jobs that work to influence these very factors. Ask a sociologist sometime.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jaxwired on 24 Sep 2014, 11:48 pm
The M22 has greater headroom than the NC400/SMPS600 (according to NAD), has both balanced XLR and single-ended RCA inputs, a 12V trigger and a 3 year warranty.

The casework looks nicer than the majority of the DIY nCore projects that I've seen posted here, and has a very nice vent detail.

A nice effort and it seems to be competitively priced in the marketplace.

Would love to see a photo of the internals.

Steve

Well said, and totally agree. And resale value of the NAD will be much better than a DIY amp.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: melis on 17 Nov 2014, 10:33 am

inside video of the M22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iRs1qCZi818
not the nc400!!!!!
Look like the nc500????
https://www.facebook.com/309681819053385/photos/a.826619150692980.1073741827.309681819053385/826618830693012/?type=1&theater
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 17 Nov 2014, 04:24 pm
Seems NAD themselves say it is a nc400: NAD Masters Series M22 – Hypex nCore for the rest of us (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/09/nad-masters-series-m22-hypex-ncore-for-the-rest-of-us/)
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: drubin on 17 Nov 2014, 04:28 pm
Bad link
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: RUR on 17 Nov 2014, 05:27 pm
Seems NAD themselves say it is a nc400: NAD Masters Series M22 – Hypex nCore for the rest of us (http://"http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/09/nad-masters-series-m22-hypex-ncore-for-the-rest-of-us/")
I dunno, they continue to send mixed messages.

Quote
The M22 is using the latest nCore™ amplifier technology licensed from Hypex to provide a nearly ideal amplifier with distortion below measurement, ultra-high damping factor, and unconditional stability with any speaker. Tight, detailed sound with amazing control and transparency gets the best performance available. With nCore, Hypex has refined their UcD concept to new levels of perfection by improving the modulator for more accurate feedback subtraction and PWM generation. The all-discrete driver and output stage have also been improved for lower open-loop THD as well as lower idling losses, normally conflicting requirements with conventional IC driver circuitry. An added control loop incorporating an integrator with adaptive clipping enables 20dB more feedback to be used across the audio band because of its extremely low-phase shift resulting in a dramatic reduction in distortion across the audio band. This is added to UcD’s already amazing characteristics of load invariance and high current capability, common characteristics of great-sounding amplifiers.
http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M22-Stereo-Power-Amplifier

To me, this still sounds like they're using UcD's, which incorporate "nCore amplifier technology".
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Occam on 17 Nov 2014, 07:08 pm
http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M22-Stereo-Power-Amplifier
Quote
> Hybrid Digital Amplification

The M22 is using the latest nCore™ amplifier technology licensed from Hypex to provide a nearly ideal amplifier with distortion below measurement, ultra-high damping factor, and unconditional stability with any speaker. Tight, detailed sound with amazing control and transparency gets the best performance available. With nCore, Hypex has refined their UcD concept to new levels of perfection by improving the modulator for more accurate feedback subtraction and PWM generation. The all-discrete driver and output stage have also been improved for lower open-loop THD as well as lower idling losses, normally conflicting requirements with conventional IC driver circuitry. An added control loop incorporating an integrator with adaptive clipping enables 20dB more feedback to be used across the audio band because of its extremely low-phase shift resulting in a dramatic reduction in distortion across the audio band. This is added to UcD’s already amazing characteristics of load invariance and high current capability, common characteristics of great-sounding amplifiers.

From the Ncore White Paper  www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/ncore%20wp.pdf
Quote
1 Synopsis
Ncore technology combines the stability of UcD
with improved load-independence, lower distortion
and lower output impedance. The approach is multi-
pronged:
- A mathematically exact understanding of self oscillation.
This allows optimization of large signal
performance.
- Improved comparator circuitry insures that
actual behaviour matches the theoretical model
as closely as possible.
- New gate drive circuitry improves open-loop
distortion at moderate signal levels while significantly
reducing idle losses.
-  A new control loop ups loop gain by 20dB across
the full audio range without sacrificing stability.

Amplifiers using all four of the above will be marketed
under the name Ncore. Amplifiers using only
the first three will still be sold under the UcD brand

even though their internals no longer resemble that
of the well-known 2001 circuit and their performance
is already a clear step up.

Please note the bolded [by me] portions of both the Nad and Hypex literature. The Hypex paper would seem to indicate the Nad modules are indeed Ncores.

FWIW
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: audio.bill on 17 Nov 2014, 09:34 pm
After reading all three pages of speculation on this thread, one question begs to be asked. Has anyone here actually listened to this amp yet? I just heard it at a local dealer along with the matching preamp and PSB Imagine T2 speakers and have to say I was very impressed! It has an inherent musicality to its sound that I haven't heard from many other Class D designs, with the exception of some that sell for many multiples of its price. I'm not telling anyone to rush out and buy one, but from what I heard I think it would be worth an audition if you have the opportunity to hear it for yourself.  :thumb: We are now returning to your regularly scheduled programming...
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: drubin on 17 Nov 2014, 09:38 pm
What a buzzkill! C'mon Bill, don't interrupt our speculation with your damned reality-based observations. :wink:

After reading all three pages of speculation on this thread, one question begs to be asked. Has anyone here actually listened to this amp yet? I just heard it at a local dealer along with the matching preamp and PSB Imagine T2 speakers and have to say I was very impressed! It has an inherent musicality to its sound that I haven't heard from many other Class D designs, with the exception of some that sell for many multiples of its price. I'm not telling anyone to rush out and buy one, but from what I heard I think it would be worth an audition if you have the opportunity to hear it for yourself.  :thumb: We are now returning to your regularly scheduled programming...
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 17 Nov 2014, 09:45 pm
My buddy REx sure enjoys his NAD D3020 with the  KEF LS50's, NAD is still very serious about their audio quality.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: greenkiwi on 18 Nov 2014, 05:50 am
I would think that there is a good chance that it is roughly based on the nc400, probably with modifications to help NAD mass produce it, or to reduce costs here or there.  For instance, moving to a rectangular packaging probably helped them waste less space inside their amp module. 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 18 Nov 2014, 09:33 am
Bad link

Oops! Fixed. Thanks!
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Nov 2014, 09:46 am
Seems NAD themselves say it is a nc400: NAD Masters Series M22 – Hypex nCore for the rest of us (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/09/nad-masters-series-m22-hypex-ncore-for-the-rest-of-us/)

According to the article, NAD is getting almost twice the power as the Ncores.


Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: srb on 18 Nov 2014, 11:41 am
Here is the spec sheet.

file:///C:/Users/csilky57/Downloads/M22%20Stereo%20Power%20Amplifier%20-%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

Your link is to the temporary download location for user csilky57 on your computer's hard drive.  ;)

The actual link is

http://nadelectronics.com/download.php?140908111314-14-031_NAD_M22_Data_Sheet_F.pdf (http://nadelectronics.com/download.php?140908111314-14-031_NAD_M22_Data_Sheet_F.pdf)|M22%20Stereo%20Power%20Amplifier%20-%20Data%20Sheet

but because it uses a PHP script to download the document, it isn't parsed properly by the forum software when directly pasted in the reply, stopping when it sees the | symbol.  However a proper link is created when using the Hyperlink button to create the link.

NAD M22 Power Amplifier - Data Sheet (http://nadelectronics.com/download.php?140908111314-14-031_NAD_M22_Data_Sheet_F.pdf|M22%20Stereo%20Power%20Amplifier%20-%20Data%20Sheet)

Steve
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Nov 2014, 11:48 am
Your link is to the temporary download location for user csilky57 on your computer's hard drive.  ;)

The actual link is

http://nadelectronics.com/download.php?140908111314-14-031_NAD_M22_Data_Sheet_F.pdf (http://nadelectronics.com/download.php?140908111314-14-031_NAD_M22_Data_Sheet_F.pdf)|M22%20Stereo%20Power%20Amplifier%20-%20Data%20Sheet

but because it uses a PHP script to download the document, it isn't parsed properly by the forum software when directly pasted in the reply, stopping when it sees the | symbol.  However a proper link is created when using the Hyperlink button to create the link.

NAD M22 Power Amplifier - Data Sheet (http://nadelectronics.com/download.php?140908111314-14-031_NAD_M22_Data_Sheet_F.pdf|M22%20Stereo%20Power%20Amplifier%20-%20Data%20Sheet)

Steve

Thanks Steve, I am just a computer dummy here. :duh:
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 18 Nov 2014, 12:26 pm
According to the article, NAD is getting almost twice the power as the Ncores.

What they say is

Quote
“In the Hypex 400 module continuous power is 200W @8 and 400W @4.  In our implementation it is 250W @ 8/4 controlled by Erik Edvardsen’s precision clipper circuit.  The benefit of this approach is the ability to offer much more short term or dynamic power where we have 350W @8 and 600W @4.  This makes the power in actual use seem greater than the spec – in typical NAD tradition!”

So they talk about "short term, dynamic power", unlike the rated power Hypex specifies. Hypex actually states 550 W into 4 ohm for 90 s even for a stereo configuration with 2 nc400's sharing a smps600, so rather close to the NAD "short term" power.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: drubin on 18 Nov 2014, 04:22 pm
Another interesting new Hypex-based product is the Merrill Audio Taranis at $2500.
http://merrillaudio.net/taranis.html (http://merrillaudio.net/taranis.html)

Hopefully someone around here will get a chance to listen to these newcomers in direct comparison to our DIY efforts.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Nov 2014, 07:24 pm
Another interesting new Hypex-based product is the Merrill Audio Taranis at $2500.
http://merrillaudio.net/taranis.html (http://merrillaudio.net/taranis.html)

Hopefully someone around here will get a chance to listen to these newcomers in direct comparison to our DIY efforts.

Interesting, that one is said to be using the NC1200 modules.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Nov 2014, 07:35 pm
It doesn't use the NC1200's.  That is easily seen by the wattage.  I'm sure it's using the UcD modules.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: audio.bill on 18 Nov 2014, 07:39 pm
Interesting, that one is said to be using the NC1200 modules.
Oh no, here we go again... It does NOT state that it uses the NC1200 modules. To quote from the product announcement it uses: "modules 'based upon NC1200 technology' with which Merrill’s using only the output stage. This is not a publicly listed NCore Module and is just the output stage."
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 18 Nov 2014, 09:01 pm
Oh no, here we go again... It does NOT state that it uses the NC1200 modules. To quote from the product announcement it uses: "modules 'based upon NC1200 technology' with which Merrill’s using only the output stage. This is not a publicly listed NCore Module and is just the output stage."

Oops, my mistake, but don't have a cow, man.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Old_School on 18 Nov 2014, 09:55 pm
From the article Julf linked:

Quote
On nCore Stidsen says, “We have our own nCore module developed in close co-operation with Hypex.  It is based on the 400 not the 1200, but this is not a qualitative difference it only affects power output.  We can do this because we will build and sell a lot of units.  The 1200 was developed primarily for the pro market where huge power is required.”

So it's "based on the 400" but clearly not the DIY NC400.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: RUR on 18 Nov 2014, 10:47 pm
Not M22, but M27 amp images (side view) may be found in this youtube vid around the 1:15 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFPo-aypFgM&list=UUuqicWX8bu2XPFLFngGRDlg

and M22 internal in this youtube vid around the 1:30 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRs1qCZi818&list=UUuqicWX8bu2XPFLFngGRDlg

Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: cab on 19 Nov 2014, 12:42 am
The new Merrill amp is said to be based on the nc1200, but isn't the nc1200. Since the nc400 and nc1200 are based on the same tech/design, one could also say it is built on the nc400 tech. Sounds like marketing to me....I would have simply said it is built using the ncore tech....Guess it sounds better to say the $2500 amp is based on the same module used in the $10,000 product.

What I wonder is why buy the nc1200 based amp when this new amp, with nearly the same power, is only $2500 or 1/4 the price?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: hifial on 19 Nov 2014, 03:26 am
Sorry cab but you are mistaken. The new Taranis Amp by Merrill Audio is NOT based on the NC400 at all but is on the NC1200. Nothing to do with the NC400. NAD's approach and Merrill Audio's are two separate paths.

Just like the NC400 amp (Ncore) sounds different then an NC1200 amp (again Ncore). So just saying it is based on Ncore, when it IS based on the NC1200, would be ambiguous and not fully describe the potential this amp has.

Why buy this amp over the Veritas? Well the answer is, it is based on the NC1200, it is not a NC1200. So there will be a difference. Just like there is a difference between the NC400 and the NC1200.     
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: cab on 19 Nov 2014, 03:59 am
Look at the specs and graphs. The nc400 and the nc1200 are both ncore. They have the same name, the same theory and the same designer. Is the nc1200 a scaled up nc400 or the nc400 a scaled down nc1200? If the nc1200 came first, then the nc400 can be said to be based on nc1200 tech as well...Bottom line, fundamentally, Ncore is ncore...
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Selarom on 19 Nov 2014, 04:58 am
The Taranis is very interesting but I question the 130db SNR. I think it is 120 right?

The mirror finish i dont like at all
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: hifial on 19 Nov 2014, 05:12 am
The SNR is 120. He knows he has to change the number on th site.

Cab, that is like saying that all Pass Labs that are class A and of the same design class are all the same. Just because it is similar does not make them the same.

But lets agree to disagree.
 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: cab on 19 Nov 2014, 05:23 am
The UcD and ncore are similar but different. Ncore is ncore. Your class a analogy is false. But yes, let's agree to disagree.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 29 Dec 2014, 05:18 pm

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=111441)

i have been enjoying the NAD M22 for about 3 weeks now. It's paired with Totem Element Fire - awesome stuff. I have also paired it with excellent KEF LS50.

i had (well still have) a Creek Destiny Power amplifier before, which is excellent as well. But the NAD M22 clearly provides that decisive ounce of additional definition and separation of individual instruments all throughout the spectrum. If anyone in the area wants to take measurements etc (and they know what they're doing) I'll gladly volunteer my piece. Although I assume as soon as an audio publication verifies its immense virtues it will become quite popular.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 1 Jan 2015, 04:40 pm
i have been enjoying the NAD M22 for about 3 weeks now. It's paired with Totem Element Fire - awesome stuff. I have also paired it with excellent KEF LS50.
Pablolie,
Care to say more comparing this amp to others?  I've sent you a PM with specific questions.

Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 1 Jan 2015, 05:24 pm
I have compared it to:

1. Accuphase E-306v http://www.accuphase.com/historys/e-306v_e.htm
2. Creek Destiny Power Amp http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/creek_destiny_e.html

I entered the comparison having used the Creek Destiny with KEF LS50 as my main system for the last year, since most of the other stuff was in storage. I got the NAD M22 and the Totem Element Fire at the same time.

I burned this new system in for 10 days while I was away.

When I got back I compared the three systems by changing the banana speaker cables (Analysis Plus Black Mesh Oval 9) while listening to a few songs I used as personal references: Herbie Hancock "The River" with Corinne Bailey on vocals (24/192), Kevin Mahogany "Never can say goodbye" from Pride&Joy (16/44), Karl Munchinger's version of Pachelbel's Canon (16/44), Bill Evans' "Detour Ahead (Take 2)" out of Waltz for Debby (another unnecessary 24/192), and Daniel Hope's "I Giorni" out of Spheres (16/44). All FLAC.

In a nutshell, the NAD M22 beats the other 2 by a clear margin when it comes to accuracy and dynamics with a good recording. The NAD M22 and Totem Element Fire absolutely amaze with instrumental/orchestral music. Even when not listened loudly the dynamic, analytical yet non-tiring presentation is amazing. The Accuphase 306 is a phenomenal amp (I don't think I can part with it), and more forgiving of poorer recordings (which actually includes Bill Evans "Waltz for Debby". The NAD M22 kind of exposes this legendary recording's somewhat crude mixing, while the Accuphase blends the stage a bit more.

With voices, I think I actually prefer the KEF LS50 and Creek Destiny combo, but I think this is more about the KEF vs Totem rather than anything else. I need to do some speaker comparisons which I haven't gotten around to for now. Voices seem to have receded a bit to the back. Which is great if you want to hear more to the band, not so good if you want to just focus on the singer or lyrics. It's ever so slight, and may have to do with the KEF cleverly boosting something, but that is a separate topic that I don't think has anything to do with the M22.

The M22 combines the rare ability to provide superb analytics ("there, a mouse just farted in the right rear corner of the studio") while staying eminently musical and non-tiring. Bad recordings can get a tad tiring though, especially after you have listened to a few good ones.

The Accuphase E-306v was my amplifier reference. Until the M22 arrived.

 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 1 Jan 2015, 05:30 pm
I should point out that I listen in a room that is about 35x16, the speakers are in the middle of the long wall, about 1.5 ft off the rear wall. Bookshelf speakers work much better than my old standers in here. And the system has to be compact (space wise) and blend in visually, as you may be able to tell from the pic. The M22 is phenomenal in its ability to pack amazing audio bang into a sleek, small package. That was the main reason I acquired the Creek Destiny, which previously was the king of great audio per dollar per cubic inch. The Creek Destiny remains a fantastic bargain to anyone that can score them online (I got mine on Ebay for less than $800) - it sounds impeccable, but is somewhat impaired in middle resolution compared to these other two.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 1 Jan 2015, 05:32 pm
PS: I forgot to mention - the DAC is Benchmark's DAC2HGC. I feed it FLACs from a Squeezebox Touch. The Benchmark also acts as a very capable little preamp.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 1 Jan 2015, 07:13 pm
Thanks for all the helpful information.  Introducing the Ncore 400 DIY into my system had me re-evaluating my DAC, which was a few years old.  Not that the system sounded bad, just that I could hear that, for example, the old DAC really couldn't play high resolution well at all. 

Other things that have mattered:  1) using a Furutech flux50 inline filter after the power cord (plugs into the IEC socket) to clean the power since the Ncore didn't like other power conditioning I tried, and 2) a spatial audio VB2 thingie after the ICs (plugs into the balanced input of the amp).  This also  showed that there is a lot of EMI in my house.  The Ncore, unlike my previous amp, doesn't cover up that noise.  Of course, remove the noise and a transparent amplifier reveals your source, good and bad.  Perhaps NAD has added features that address the power and input noise so that it can sound good in all environments.

Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 1 Jan 2015, 07:57 pm
Thanks a lot for the information.

I use an Audio Power Ultra 112 (http://www.audiopower.com/newsite/pw112.html) which seems to work quite well with the M22, as it always has with other equipment. But I shall definitely check out the Furutech.

Any theories out there as to why most power conditioners-filters don't work well with the Ncore? I had heard it before and it was a mild cause of concern.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: a.wayne on 1 Jan 2015, 08:54 pm
Well according to NADspecs , the M22 is consideably more powerfull  than the Accuphase and small speakers as all speakers with avg sensitivity benefit from big power , more dynamics and a sense of ease is usually the payoff...


Considering the savings in metal and parts I'm really shocked that most class-d offerings today are even more than past linear amp( not directed at NAD in particular, but seeing 12K plus from some with mini boxes is well ..)  offerings from these companies , good profit margins  abound .. :)


As to NCore , i would speculate their power supply is doing a good job keeping out the nasties .....
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 2 Jan 2015, 02:21 pm
Any theories out there as to why most power conditioners-filters don't work well with the Ncore? I had heard it before and it was a mild cause of concern.

The nc400's benefit from a low-impedance, high-peak-current mains feed. Power conditioners and filters tend to add series impedance/resistance. T or pi filters also introduce ground paths for HF noise - something Hypex has specifically warned about.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 2 Jan 2015, 02:25 pm
The Ncore, unlike my previous amp, doesn't cover up that noise.

That runs counter to my experiences. I have a very noisy and unstable mains (some of the graphs introduce nausea), but my ncores (fed by smps600's) don't seem to mind. The fast and efficient feedback architecture of the nc400 seems to be able to correct out anything that makes it through the smps...
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 2 Jan 2015, 09:18 pm
That runs counter to my experiences. I have a very noisy and unstable mains (some of the graphs introduce nausea), but my ncores (fed by smps600's) don't seem to mind. The fast and efficient feedback architecture of the nc400 seems to be able to correct out anything that makes it through the smps...

That is interesting, Julf.  Perhaps it is further down the chain:  how my speakers deal with any noise? 

It doesn't really matter.  We all tweak our particular environments for what is, to us, optimal sound.  It would be interesting to know how our listening preferences are, or are not, related to our hearing acuity. 
If we did know, an app that maps the sensitivity of our ears to particular equipment would save lots of time and money.   

Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 3 Jan 2015, 09:56 am
 
If we did know, an app that maps the sensitivity of our ears to particular equipment would save lots of time and money.   

Indeed! But then again, would the people who refuse to believe audio and electronics professionals suddenly believe an app? :)
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: rajacat on 3 Jan 2015, 05:48 pm
Indeed! But then again, would the people who refuse to believe audio and electronics professionals suddenly believe an app? :)
But then again even the "audio and electronics professionals" often disagree. :P
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 4 Jan 2015, 10:05 am
But then again even the "audio and electronics professionals" often disagree. :P

Not that much if you look at stuff actually published in peer-reviewed professional publications. There are some cowboys out there, but there is also a pretty well established and accepted professional consensus.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: guest61169 on 4 Jan 2015, 12:53 pm
PS: I forgot to mention - the DAC is Benchmark's DAC2HGC. I feed it FLACs from a Squeezebox Touch. The Benchmark also acts as a very capable little preamp.

Have you tried running it balanced with the NAD (and trying the different jumper settings for balanced connections in the Benchmark)?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 4 Jan 2015, 06:39 pm
Have you tried running it balanced with the NAD (and trying the different jumper settings for balanced connections in the Benchmark)?

Yes I run it balanced with XLR (with Analysis Plus Crystal Oval). I also did change the jumper settings to -20dB (instead of the standard -10), which allows the volume on the DAC2 to hover around 12 o'clock (normal listening level), compared to it being stuck at 10 o'clock with the -10 setting (all for normal listening). Total rotation is from 7 to 5 o'clock, for those who are not familiar with the DAC2. I had a bit of heartburn about the change of output impedance [from 425 (at -10dB) to 135 (-20)], but none of my amps seems to care.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 5 Jan 2015, 08:50 am
I had a bit of heartburn about the change of output impedance [from 425 (at -10dB) to 135 (-20)], but none of my amps seems to care.

Wouldn't lower be better anyway?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 7 Jan 2015, 09:45 pm
Wouldn't lower be better anyway?

in theory, yes. but i liked what i heard at -10, so i simply was worried about changing stuff. but i changed it and stuck with it. :-)
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 8 Jan 2015, 07:31 am
in theory, yes. but i liked what i heard at -10, so i simply was worried about changing stuff. but i changed it and stuck with it. :-)

Louder sounds better... :)
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: lynhnn on 18 Jan 2015, 01:25 am
I want to build a pair of NC400 myself but I got a new NAD M22 and it immediately replaced the Channel Islands E-200S which was better than the ARC 150.2.
So this is what I know  entering the "Class D" world:
 NAD M22 (ncore) >> CI E-200S (hypex udc400) >> ARC 150.2 (class T?)

My pre was BC DAC 2.5.

My next steps would be the D-Sonic M3-800S (Pascal) and then the DIY ncore400 (do I really need to have them?)

Cheers
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: lynhnn on 18 Jan 2015, 01:49 am
Ok, I got an upgrade bug in my 2nd system and I got the Channel Islands stereo amp to compare with the ARC 150.2 and I quickly sold the ARC. Then I got the NAD M22 to compare with the CI amp and the M22 is much better than the CI in all departments.
So in my system:
M22 is much better than CI 200S and the CI 200S is much better than the ARC. This make sense as the cost goes 3K >> 2K >> 1K ...
YMMV

Cheers
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 18 Jan 2015, 07:59 am
So this is what I know  entering the "Class D" world:
 NAD M22 (ncore) >> CI E-200S (hypex udc400) >> ARC 150.2 (class T?)

You might have to explain what you mean with that line. Does the ">>" imply "much better" or something like that?

[edit: Ah, you seem to have addressed that already - thanks!]
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: srb on 18 Jan 2015, 11:14 am
M22 is much better than CI 200S and the CI 200S is much better than the ARC. This make sense as the cost goes 3K >> 2K >> 1K ...

I understand your order of preference, but I don't follow the cost comparison.  I'm assuming that the CI Audio is the model E-200S and that the ARC 150.2 is not a current model, but a model from 2003 - 2006?

NAD M22:  $2995
CI Audio E-200S:  $2495
ARC 150.2:  $2495 (2003-2004)  /  $2995 (2005 -2006)

Steve
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 18 Jan 2015, 01:10 pm
M22 is much better than CI 200S and the CI 200S is much better than the ARC.

I guess "much better" is a rather relative term with regards to the nc400 vs. ucd400. Do you think you could tell them apart in a blind test?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: lynhnn on 19 Jan 2015, 12:16 am
Yes I could tell the difference immediately.
Here is how I test. I have a 10 random songs and play them repeatedly in a few days so I get use to each of the songs. Then I swap the amp and play them the same way and look for improvements in each of the songs.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112933)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112934)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=112935)

The ARC 150.2 is a very old amp and current market price is about 1K. It sound good after a long warm up and at higher volume. I also had PS audio stereo and Wyred 4 sound 7-ch in the past and none of them impressed me.

The question is should I invest in a DIY pair of monos ncore 400 (available from hypex late February?) to see if I can get better sound than the NAD M22 or should I not?
I'll have a chance to compare the D-sonic M3-800S as well.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 19 Jan 2015, 07:30 am
The question is should I invest in a DIY pair of monos ncore 400 (available from hypex late February?) to see if I can get better sound than the NAD M22 or should I not?

Why would the DIY nc400's sound better than the M22? OK, let me rephrase that - what would you do differently than NAD?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jtsnead on 19 Jan 2015, 03:10 pm

The question is should I invest in a DIY pair of monos ncore 400 (available from hypex late February?) to see if I can get better sound than the NAD M22 or should I not?
I'll have a chance to compare the D-sonic M3-800S as well.
[/quote]

I would compare it to the D Sonic, I have a pair of M3-800M amps and they were a very good step up from mu ClassD single chassis mono amp (500W p/c), the D Sonic amps are 800W p/c which along the different design greatly improve bass definition and range, depth and smoother treble. Never got a chance to listen to N core but would like to compare to my amps
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: lynhnn on 21 Jan 2015, 08:44 pm
Initial audition of the M3-800S in the system show that it produces a warmer sound and it favors the vocals. It also pump more bass overall. However, the stereo separation of the two channels may be less and with less clarity.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=113342)
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 23 Jan 2015, 02:07 am
Initial audition of the M3-800S in the system show that it produces a warmer sound and it favors the vocals. It also pump more bass overall. However, the stereo separation of the two channels may be less and with less clarity.

One professional review states that it starts to sing at higher volumes.  Do you find that is the case?  One of the great features of the Ncore is its ability to sound good at very low volume.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 23 Jan 2015, 12:47 pm
One professional review states that it starts to sing at higher volumes

That sounds like a poorly damped enclosure. :)
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 31 Jan 2015, 06:18 pm
I have a NAD on order and have 60 days to compare it to my DIY Ncore 400.   

The NAD is larger and heavier (including internal heat sinks, which mine does not have) and includes the NAD special sauce.  Will be interesting to hear if there is a difference that I prefer. 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: lynhnn on 1 Feb 2015, 07:20 am
This forum made me to give Crown XLS 1500 a try and I did. Sorry the XLS fan, it's nothing close to the others I tested above. It pumps lots of power but nothing special. In fact, it produces great amount of listen fatigue at higher volume. So for $350, it can't compete with the other I've tried for a month ....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=114048)

I use XLR input and speakon out
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: lynhnn on 1 Feb 2015, 07:24 am
I have a NAD on order and have 60 days to compare it to my DIY Ncore 400.   

The NAD is larger and heavier (including internal heat sinks, which mine does not have) and includes the NAD special sauce.  Will be interesting to hear if there is a difference that I prefer.

I returned the NAD and love to see your results against the DIY ncores. M22 is nicely built and looks very classy. I don't like the touch to power thing but it is personal taste.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 1 Feb 2015, 06:03 pm

indeed the power button on the M22 is quite erratic. on the other hand, i never use it. the M22 seems to draw little power when not playing music. it also has the auto-standby feature (which i have recently turned on to save a little power), and it warms up and sounds great very quickly. i have never heard an nCore-based DIY amp, but have heard those tend to take a while to warm up.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 1 Feb 2015, 07:00 pm
I returned the NAD and love to see your results against the DIY ncores. M22 is nicely built and looks very classy. I don't like the touch to power thing but it is personal taste.

How many hours are you putting on these amps? Many amps, especially SS, takes at least 200 hours to break-in and Class D amps needs to be left on 24 hours every day.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 1 Feb 2015, 08:43 pm
... Many amps, especially SS, takes at least 200 hours to break-in and Class D amps needs to be left on 24 hours every day.

indeed. i don't listen to equipment unless it's played music for about 2 weeks, pretty much leave it on all the time when i leave the house. it probably has just as much to do with my ears adjusting to something "different".

in my case it was compounded by the fact i got the M22 and new speakers at the exact same time, and the combo definitely needed several hundred hours. initially i was quite underwhelmed. that has since changed and i think the combo phenomenal.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 2 Feb 2015, 07:49 am
Class D amps needs to be left on 24 hours every day.

No, they don't, and it might not be a good idea to do so, as you will shorten their life.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 2 Feb 2015, 07:50 am
indeed. i don't listen to equipment unless it's played music for about 2 weeks, pretty much leave it on all the time when i leave the house. it probably has just as much to do with my ears adjusting to something "different".

in my case it was compounded by the fact i got the M22 and new speakers at the exact same time, and the combo definitely needed several hundred hours. initially i was quite underwhelmed. that has since changed and i think the combo phenomenal.

Yes, ears and speakers require time. Electronics only require a couple of hours.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Feb 2015, 10:04 am
No, they don't, and it might not be a good idea to do so, as you will shorten their life.

According to my ears they do.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 2 Feb 2015, 11:04 am
According to my ears they do.

That is of course a statement that is not contestable (at least if we assume that the term "ears" covers the whole psychoperceptive system as well), but I just want to point out that a system that would last 40 years with a daily usage of 2 hours per day every day will last less than 4 years of 24/7. Of course, the expected lifetime is very much dependent on typical running temperatures too.


Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Feb 2015, 11:27 am
That is of course a statement that is not contestable (at least if we assume that the term "ears" covers the whole psychoperceptive system as well), but I just want to point out that a system that would last 40 years with a daily usage of 2 hours per day every day will last less than 4 years of 24/7. Of course, the expected lifetime is very much dependent on typical running temperatures too.

Then I will go buy another one. :D
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 2 Feb 2015, 01:28 pm
Then I will go buy another one. :D

And how long will they be available? For me that is a genuine concern - if one of the 4 ncores, or one of the smps's fail, will I be able to replace/repair it, or do I have to rebuild my whole system?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: rollo on 2 Feb 2015, 01:52 pm
That is of course a statement that is not contestable (at least if we assume that the term "ears" covers the whole psychoperceptive system as well), but I just want to point out that a system that would last 40 years with a daily usage of 2 hours per day every day will last less than 4 years of 24/7. Of course, the expected lifetime is very much dependent on typical running temperatures too.

    Really, tell that to my amps who run 24/7 for 10 year or more of being on 24/7. Any SS device is not worth its weight if it cannot be on 24/7. Please explain to me what wears out ? 
    Break in  is a reality. It takes about 50 hours to burn in a path of least resistance of the conductors and then the forming of the caps. The dielectric  requires forming which takes depending on cap 200 hours or more to form.
      The key to break-in is the off time after playing. One wants to bring component up to temp and run for five hours then off for five hours. As a beta tester  that has been my experience which all of the manf's agree with.


charles
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 2 Feb 2015, 02:38 pm
Please explain to me what wears out?

The first things to go seem to be the electrolytic capacitors in the smps.
 
Quote
Break in  is a reality. It takes about 50 hours to burn in a path of least resistance of the conductors and then the forming of the caps. The dielectric  requires forming which takes depending on cap 200 hours or more to form.

Any pointers to references?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: rollo on 2 Feb 2015, 02:44 pm
The first things to go seem to be the electrolytic capacitors in the smps.
 
Any pointers to references?


    After about 10 years caps can fail with normal usage.  References ? Yes Over 50,000 hours of break-in experience and 45 years in audio.


charles
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 2 Feb 2015, 04:02 pm
After about 10 years caps can fail with normal usage.

And is your "normal usage" 24/7 or a couple of hours per day?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: rollo on 2 Feb 2015, 05:00 pm
And is your "normal usage" 24/7 or a couple of hours per day?

    The class "D" hybrid amps are on 24/7 [ tube section off ] CDP o [ tubed analog section off], phono stage power supply on 24/7, preamp [tubed] off. My listening is 5 hours or so a day. Dailey routine is turn off what is off. Let settle for 15 minutes then play for a hour to bring to operating temp. and then listen.
    Every month a demag disc is used to rid magnetic build up since most gear on 24/7. All connections are cleaned with Pro-Gold every 3 months. Try it and you may experience what I do. The difference can easily be heard. :thumb:


charles
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 2 Feb 2015, 05:14 pm
    The class "D" hybrid amps are on 24/7 [ tube section off ] CDP o [ tubed analog section off], phono stage power supply on 24/7, preamp [tubed] off. My listening is 5 hours or so a day. Dailey routine is turn off what is off. Let settle for 15 minutes then play for a hour to bring to operating temp. and then listen.

So if you turned off everything, the electrolytics that  fail after 10 years would actually last 50 years?

Quote
Every month a demag disc is used to rid magnetic build up since most gear on 24/7.

I don't need to, as my equipment is aligned along ley lines. :)
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: a.wayne on 2 Feb 2015, 07:43 pm
Demag Disc .....?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: lynhnn on 2 Feb 2015, 07:47 pm
How many hours are you putting on these amps? Many amps, especially SS, takes at least 200 hours to break-in and Class D amps needs to be left on 24 hours every day.

I am trying to get back the topic here ...
Once I replace the amp, I hear the differences. I leave the amp running for 5-10 days during my audition. The NAD M22 is a very clean sounding amp. It plays exceptionally well as a background music during conversations. We can hear beautiful music between passages. So the M22 plays well at low level to answer one person asked.

I don't believe an amp will drastically improve over continuos play like 200 hours or after break-in. I haven't seen so. For example, the Crown XLS 1500 will not sound any better than the NAD or the D-Sonic M3 regardless how many hours it is on. The XLS is not designed for hi-fi so it will not sound like hi-fi audio no matter how long. Beside, the manufacturer should make it good right out of the box so it can compete with others. Adding "sound much better after few hundreds hours" on the manual box only makes the buyers hang on to it and hope for the best to come :)

I agree that leave the amp on for 1 hour or so and it will perform better but it will reach its top form and not any better no matter how long it has been on ...


 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 2 Feb 2015, 08:01 pm
always on vs on/off... one of the longest standing debates in audio.

in general i agree that heat is the enemy of components, so with amplifiers that build up higher temperatures it's probably best to turn them off for longevity. on the other hand, i left my Accuphase E-306v on for 14 years and it never had an issue. on the other hand i didn't hear much of a difference between it being on or off, my theory it's my ears that need warm-up when i finally chill in front of the music shrine. :-)

the M22 runs very cold in idle, so i'd be surprised if there's much thermal stress involved. again, there might be a slight performance difference between cold vs warmed up. initially i kept it on all the time because i wanted to put 200 hours of music on the new speakers asap, but now i have turned on the auto-standby feature. some claim that the process of turning a device on and off is more stressful that just leaving it on all of the time.

NAD doesn't provide an official recommendation with the M22. the Creek Destiny Power Amplifier came with the recommendation to turn it off, then again it did run quite hot.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: lynhnn on 2 Feb 2015, 08:25 pm
but now i have turned on the auto-standby feature. some claim that the process of turning a device on and off is more stressful that just leaving it on all of the time.

Yes I love auto standby and turn on feature!
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Feb 2015, 09:13 pm
For example, the Crown XLS 1500 will not sound any better than the NAD or the D-Sonic M3 regardless how many hours it is on. The XLS is not designed for hi-fi so it will not sound like hi-fi audio no matter how long. Beside, the manufacturer should make it good right out of the box so it can compete with others. Adding "sound much better after few hundreds hours" on the manual box only makes the buyers hang on to it and hope for the best to come :)


The Crown takes at least 200 hours to break-in or it will sound very harsh. Also, if you turn the amp off, it takes at least three hours to start sounding smooth again. Then if you cryo the amp, another 200 hours to break-in. This amp beats my Job 225 amp in my system. I had the tour Ncores here for about a week, and they sounded very harsh no matter what I did.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: lynhnn on 2 Feb 2015, 10:26 pm
...I had the tour Ncores here for about a week, and they sounded very harsh no matter what I did.

you mean the XLS sounded very harsh?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 2 Feb 2015, 11:03 pm
you mean the XLS sounded very harsh?

Ncores did, but I have very bad AC problems. The Job and XLS does not.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: mjosef on 2 Feb 2015, 11:06 pm
Maybe those NCores were 'broken'.  :lol:
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 3 Feb 2015, 12:01 am
Maybe those NCores were 'broken'.  :lol:

That is what I asked jTwrace.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: cab on 3 Feb 2015, 12:47 am
Maybe if they had been triple cryroed, mass loaded with 2000 pounds of depleted uranium, placed on an active air suspension on top of stillpoints with gel footers and fed with palladium power cords resting on cryroed smoked bamboo elevators they would have sounded "awesome"....
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: OzarkTom on 3 Feb 2015, 12:52 am
Maybe if they had been triple cryroed, mass loaded with 2000 pounds of depleted uranium, placed on an active air suspension on top of stillpoints with gel footers and fed with palladium power cords resting on cryroed smoked bamboo elevators they would have sounded "awesome"....

 :thumb:
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 3 Feb 2015, 02:04 am
No, they don't, and it might not be a good idea to do so, as you will shorten their life.

standby for the NAD is <0.5 W and they are vented on top (from what I can see in the photos).  So, perhaps you can have both an amp ready to play + very low heat + very low power consumption.  That is one of the things I like about how the amp is designed (my DAC is similar - standby but not fully powered on, ready to play and not pulling too much power).   Not that I think this will end the debate….  :) 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 3 Feb 2015, 02:55 am
standby for the NAD is <0.5 W and they are vented on top (from what I can see in the photos).  So, perhaps you can have both an amp ready to play + very low heat + very low power consumption.  That is one of the things I like about how the amp is designed (my DAC is similar - standby but not fully powered on, ready to play and not pulling too much power).   Not that I think this will end the debate….  :)

 :thumb:
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 3 Feb 2015, 03:11 am
Ncores did, but I have very bad AC problems. The Job and XLS does not.

from the specs the XLS should not be remotely close, but hey, it depends on the entire chain's compatibility and personal preference. i have heard class D designs before, and until the M22 i was not a fan. in the sub $1k category there was the M1PWR from Musical Fidelity, and i use it in my weekend cabin paired with Totem Dreamcatchers. the combo sounds very satisfying, the the amp sounded horrible paired with my main speakers (boosted the bass way too much, but it works great with the little dreamcatchers). i got a NAD D7050 for a friend and it also sounds quite good paired with Dreamcatchers, more disciplined. the M22 is in a different category altogether though, it can only be compared with far more expensive amplifiers as far as i am concerned.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 3 Feb 2015, 10:00 am
standby for the NAD is <0.5 W and they are vented on top (from what I can see in the photos).  So, perhaps you can have both an amp ready to play + very low heat + very low power consumption.  That is one of the things I like about how the amp is designed (my DAC is similar - standby but not fully powered on, ready to play and not pulling too much power).   Not that I think this will end the debate….  :)

I never physically cut the power (except in a bad thunderstorm) of my nc400 based system. I use the smps standby.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 3 Feb 2015, 03:00 pm
the SMPS raises a (possibly naive) question - should the M22 be connected to one of the digital outputs on a power supply? or the amplifier one? or does it make no difference? :-)

one thing that amazes me about the M22 is how cool it runs. i have had it playing music in the back, and in an hour it has not warmed up a single degree it seems.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: rollo on 3 Feb 2015, 03:54 pm
D/emag Disc .....?

  Yes either the Ayre/Cardas or Esoteric CDs. Very affective.

charles
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: rollo on 3 Feb 2015, 03:59 pm
the SMPS raises a (possibly naive) question - should the M22 be connected to one of the digital outputs on a power supply? or the amplifier one? or does it make no difference? :-)

one thing that amazes me about the M22 is how cool it runs. i have had it playing music in the back, and in an hour it has not warmed up a single degree it seems.

   Try both and find out.

charles
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 3 Feb 2015, 04:59 pm
   Try both and find out.

my question was more of a theoretic nature :-) i am extremely pleased with my current little system, and when that is the case i tend to tuck it all away quite neatly. hence it is a lot of work to switch things and experiment. i just carry a list in my head of things i may play around with next time i revisit the configuration and want to experiment, which typically is no more than a bi-yearly occasion for me.

i have decided i will eventually try to run the M22 without the power conditioner, and then perhaps with the conditioner in different configurations. but for now i'd rather just listen to music, i spent enough time playing around with gear back in December. :-)
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 4 Feb 2015, 02:27 am
Early impressions (right out of the box):

normally I don't post until either my ears or the equipment is fully broken-in (depending upon your view).  I'm pleasantly surprised the sound isn't bad at all.  It does sound like an Ncore DIY at the moment.  Bass is fuller but lumpy.  Will see how it progresses. 

The standby switch doesn't bother me (as it has some posters) but I absolutely hate the speaker binding posts.  They are those kind with plastic all around them and I couldn't find a way to use them with my spades (too narrow).  Had to use banana adapters.  Uggghhh.  Maybe I'm missing something (long day), but the binding posts seem at the wrong angle with the plastic protector piece.  The spade should be able to fit the flat part of the post. 

Pablolie, are you using spades?   
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 4 Feb 2015, 02:30 am
I never physically cut the power (except in a bad thunderstorm) of my nc400 based system. I use the smps standby.

Julf,
Do you know the power consumption during standby?  By standby do you mean that the speaker connectors are muted but the amp is using full idle power (about 40 W)?  Just curious. 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 4 Feb 2015, 02:47 am
hi phil - yes i use banana plugs. i connected them straight from the back into the connector, ignoring those  angled sideways connectors that seem to be a weird british excentricity (the Creek Power amp had them too).

power consumption on standby is negligible. when on and not playing music it is about 34W. it goes up from there as you increase volume, but i say as i play music at a normal level it is about 50W. about 30W less than the Creek Destiny, all in all, when driving an identical load and identical levels, only the Creek got HOT.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 4 Feb 2015, 03:49 am
hi phil - yes i use banana plugs. i connected them straight from the back into the connector, ignoring those  angled sideways connectors that seem to be a weird british excentricity (the Creek Power amp had them too).

power consumption on standby is negligible. when on and not playing music it is about 34W. it goes up from there as you increase volume, but i say as i play music at a normal level it is about 50W. about 30W less than the Creek Destiny, all in all, when driving an identical load and identical levels, only the Creek got HOT.

Thank you.  It does make sense that the NAD stays cool.  Large internal heat sinks + ventilation on the sides and top.  This should result in long life.  The bass does seem to be fuller, deeper and more nuanced already.  There seem to be some very big caps inside (looking through top vents).  From the NAD description it appears the power supply is custom NAD and a different approach than simply SMPS.  Amazed it sounds as good as it does so soon.  That has NEVER happened with my other equipment.  So maybe the break-in is my ears, which are already tuned to the Ncore sound  :scratch:
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 4 Feb 2015, 06:38 am
... ventilation on the sides ..

wow. you are right, on the sides too. i own the thing and had never noticed :-D

i am actually extremely sure it will win several "gear of the year" awards and "audiophile A" awards, once the press starts to crank out the reviews. i think it a phenomenal piece of gear. like i said, it beats my E306v, which helped me win a legendary showdown against a ridiculously expensive yet haphazardly system put together by an arrogant a## that frequented a wine bar i went to (if he'd been nice i'd never challenged the dude, but i knew from the attitude he didn't know anything other than write a check) - and i always thought the E306v would be all the amp i'd ever want, and it was way over twice the price of the M22 over 14 years ago. in general it is an amazing time to put an audio system together for under 10k. they perform at insane levels i f the gear is mixed right and matches.

and personally, i think in another few years active speakers will undoubtedly rule the world unless those using separates match them very, very skillfully. i auditioned some that were extremely awesome. but with this combo i think i am extremely well served for now, and utterly amazed at the performance. i have seen some of this thread blast NAD for charging $3k for it, but coming from where i am (i am an EE, but haven't soldered anything in anger in over 20 years) the M22 is a bargain - it delivered an enhancement i honestly didn't expect to hear (and i have been in this hobby for more years than i care to admit, if i tell you guys i stole my Dad's Tandberg CC player when in university you may get the notion), matched against components multiple the price. another anecdote - a friend of mine who used to own a very expensive Burmester rig prior to his divorce (the only expensive system i honestly have heard that rated above my old -yes, pre-divorce, too- system), he was at my place listening a few weeks ago, and he went off and got the same DAC and amp (but other speakers), and claims the system beats his old system which he bitterly missed, but no more. at 20% the price, and i believe that these days. amazing time to listen to music at home.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 4 Feb 2015, 09:26 am
Do you know the power consumption during standby?  By standby do you mean that the speaker connectors are muted but the amp is using full idle power (about 40 W)?  Just curious.

I use the smps standby that turns the amps off completely, so power consumption is pretty minimal. Even when powered up, my amps (4 x nc400, 2 x smps600) seem to take less than 30W, so I am a bit surprised about your 40W figure. Are you using a non-standard power supply?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 4 Feb 2015, 01:38 pm
wow. you are right, on the sides too. i own the thing and had never noticed :-D

i am actually extremely sure it will win several "gear of the year" awards and "audiophile A" awards, once the press starts to crank out the reviews. i think it a phenomenal piece of gear. like i said, it beats my E306v, which helped me win a legendary showdown against a ridiculously expensive yet haphazardly system put together by an arrogant a## that frequented a wine bar i went to (if he'd been nice i'd never challenged the dude, but i knew from the attitude he didn't know anything other than write a check) - and i always thought the E306v would be all the amp i'd ever want, and it was way over twice the price of the M22 over 14 years ago. in general it is an amazing time to put an audio system together for under 10k. they perform at insane levels i f the gear is mixed right and matches.

and personally, i think in another few years active speakers will undoubtedly rule the world unless those using separates match them very, very skillfully. i auditioned some that were extremely awesome. but with this combo i think i am extremely well served for now, and utterly amazed at the performance. i have seen some of this thread blast NAD for charging $3k for it, but coming from where i am (i am an EE, but haven't soldered anything in anger in over 20 years) the M22 is a bargain - it delivered an enhancement i honestly didn't expect to hear (and i have been in this hobby for more years than i care to admit, if i tell you guys i stole my Dad's Tandberg CC player when in university you may get the notion), matched against components multiple the price. another anecdote - a friend of mine who used to own a very expensive Burmester rig prior to his divorce (the only expensive system i honestly have heard that rated above my old -yes, pre-divorce, too- system), he was at my place listening a few weeks ago, and he went off and got the same DAC and amp (but other speakers), and claims the system beats his old system which he bitterly missed, but no more. at 20% the price, and i believe that these days. amazing time to listen to music at home.

That is a funny story (beware of wine bars, I suppose).  Agreed that the price for performance is amazing from what I can hear at this point (but will confirm in a week or so).  I expect the HF to become less crisp and for all the frequencies to settle down and "be of a piece."  Of course the two "tests" that are meaningful to me are:  fully broken-in and long-term satisfaction -  both unknowns at this point.     

Regarding the price, this is a nicely built amp and the black-on-silver is stylish without being over the top.  Beats the hell out of my DIY as well as some of my other equipment.  Kinda like the conical feet resting on magnetic bases too.  The packaging was well engineered as well.  All of this stuff counts to me.  Of course, it wouldn't matter if it sounded like dung. 

RE the power switch:  it works well with a light touch.  I struggled a bit with it at first, expecting the usual toggle, but showed my wife how to use it and, with a lighter touch, she operated it first time effortlessly. 

Will check back in after the initial enthusiasm wears off and the unit is broken-in….     
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 4 Feb 2015, 01:40 pm
I use the smps standby that turns the amps off completely, so power consumption is pretty minimal. Even when powered up, my amps (4 x nc400, 2 x smps600) seem to take less than 30W, so I am a bit surprised about your 40W figure. Are you using a non-standard power supply?

The 40W is for the NAD; I thought it was the same for the DIY. 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jaxwired on 3 Mar 2015, 01:23 pm
M12 / M22 on order.  Should have them by next weekend.  Currently have Devialet.  Will compare and report back. 
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 3 Mar 2015, 03:09 pm
M12 / M22 on order.  Should have them by next weekend.  Currently have Devialet.  Will compare and report back.

that will be fun. someone urged me to also test out the Benchmark AHB2 power amp, which should be here tomorrow. i'll check it out over the weekend and shall also report.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: jaxwired on 3 Mar 2015, 03:28 pm
that will be fun. someone urged me to also test out the Benchmark AHB2 power amp, which should be here tomorrow. i'll check it out over the weekend and shall also report.

Like the specs and looks of the Benchmark amp very much, but I need more power and I don't like to run amps in Bridge mode.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Toka on 10 Mar 2015, 03:21 pm
Anyone compare the M12/M22 combo to the C390DD? The latter seems like a more thorough implementation of the "direct digital" philosophy (no analog IC's of course), but the former has more flexibility, power, and looks better.  8)
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Phil on 27 Mar 2015, 11:34 pm
The NAD is finally broken in (or my ears are, depending upon your philosophy).

In summary:  The NAD is better than my DIY Ncore 400 dual mono amp.  Better meaning:

-- deeper bass
-- more transparent (or, my wife says, clearer and "are we keeping this?" Who doesn't love to hear that?)
-- more powerful, relaxed and musical


For those who do not want to go down the DIY route, this is an audiophile-grade amp, with very nice build quality/case, at a terrific price.  The only negative is the speaker binding posts (if you have spades, that is.  What a PITA.  Bananas are no problem).

Would my dual mono sound better as monos?  Don't know.
With DIY, you change the unit any way you want.  Obviously, you can't do that with the NAD.  Including, changing the fuse without voiding the warranty.  Ridiculous.  On the other hand, I do like the very low standby power.  I'm using the balanced inputs but RCA are provided too. 

Now I just have to figure out how much to sell my DIY for...



Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: pablolie on 11 Apr 2015, 03:27 pm
i compared the NAD M22 and the Benchmark AHB2, and ended up sending the Benchmark back. both are extremely quiet. the M22 just seems more open and punchy throughout, some call the AHB2 more "analog"... i just think it just isn't as resolving as the M22. the difference is small but noticeable. i am a huge fan of the M22.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 18 Apr 2015, 02:11 pm
In summary:  The NAD is better than my DIY Ncore 400 dual mono amp.

i would be curious to hear any theories as to why that would be.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: firedog on 18 Apr 2015, 09:50 pm
possibilities:
the input section is totally NAD, not the stock Ncore input section
the NAD clipping circuit
the changes made by Nad so that the board is a 250W  board at both 4 and 8 ohms, but has greater instantaneous power than the stock N400. This includes a different PS.
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 19 Apr 2015, 12:18 pm
possibilities:
the input section is totally NAD, not the stock Ncore input section
the NAD clipping circuit
the changes made by Nad so that the board is a 250W  board at both 4 and 8 ohms, but has greater instantaneous power than the stock N400. This includes a different PS.

Do we know that those are the changes NAD made?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: firedog on 19 Apr 2015, 02:32 pm
Do we know that those are the changes NAD made?

Acc'd to web sites with info and actual direct quotes from NAD. It's possible I overstated the part about the input section based on my understanding, but it is not the stock N400 input section. NAD developed - along with Hypex - a special version of the NCore 400 just for them and their amp. Not the same as the DIY board.

Here's a link to one such info page: http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/09/nad-masters-series-m22-hypex-ncore-for-the-rest-of-us/
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: cab on 19 Apr 2015, 02:47 pm
Hypes now has an nc500 for oem's. Perhaps the NAD is using this?
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: srb on 19 Apr 2015, 02:49 pm
Greg Stidsen of NAD specifically says they developed their own module in cooperation with Hypex.

Here is a photo of the modules and power supply in the M22:

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=119344)

Steve
Title: Re: NAD M22 Stereo Power Amplifier-NC400
Post by: Julf on 20 Apr 2015, 08:09 am
Acc'd to web sites with info and actual direct quotes from NAD. It's possible I overstated the part about the input section based on my understanding, but it is not the stock N400 input section. NAD developed - along with Hypex - a special version of the NCore 400 just for them and their amp. Not the same as the DIY board.

Here's a link to one such info page: http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/09/nad-masters-series-m22-hypex-ncore-for-the-rest-of-us/

Thanks! So I assume the "Erik Edvardsen precision clipper circuit" is based on Edvardsen's original design for the NAD 3020 (of 1978).