[ThorsHammer]

I'm in a very similar situation. I have the ST/RTs and a Song Center....I am also running them off an Emotiva amp - the UPA-7 - and an HK 7200 as the pre while I wait for the UMC-1.

When I first set my system up I had a real problem with the sound stage and the bass. The sound stage was very narrow and the bass had way too much resonance on many low notes, even E strings on guitars. Turns out there were 3 main factors involved...1) the speakers were too close to my equipment stand and sidewall, 2) the processor definitely colors the sound and affects the bass...a problem that is readily resolved by going to stereo or "surround off", 3) if you have a center there is a strong tendency for any processed sound to focus the vocals on the center channel...which is great for HT but not so great for music. Thus, the great debate on whether to listen to music in stereo versus all the other choices.

For music the sound improved dramatically when I pulled the speakers further into the room and away from the sidewalls and stands. It improved further by turning off any processing. I can't change the weaknesses in using the HK 7200 as a pre until the UMC-1 gets here but I expect that will improve the system to another level.

Bottom line...your sound is only going to be as good as the weakest link in your system. You can fool around with the placement and that will improve it to a point but if your recording is bad...or your pre is average...or your center or rear speakers are involved and they aren't on par with the STs....or your connections/wiring has faults...or your room acoustics are sub par. That will all show up in the end quality of what the STs can reproduce.

Right now I feel I am at about 85% and I'm confident replacing my quirky HK7200 with the cutting edge UMC-1 and tweaking the wiring will get me close to 100% of the capabilities of the STs. But, even then, if I go to the 5.1 settings I am involving my 2 floor standing Athena f2 rears and these aren't sonically up to the SongTowers....so, there are some trade offs in surround.

[Nuance]

ThorsHammer,

Don't forget about that $5500 power cable.  Only then will you be at 100%  

Seriously, though, great advice, Thor. 

cnm_mike,

How have things been sounding since your tweaks yesterday?  Have you performed any other tweaks or changes since we last spoke?

[ThorsHammer]

Thankfully, I've never had the ability real or perceived to tell the difference between high and low end cables and speaker wire, lol. I'm a strong believer in the theory of diminishing returns and find it hard to believe the incremental increases in sound quality could be worth the exponential increases in $. But, I'm sure there are plenty of audiophiles that would beg to differ.

Btw - didn't you reject an Emotiva amp as being too bright for your STs? Since this was my first foray into separates I don't have anything to compare mine with except the HK 7200 amps and they seem to be a significant improvement and seem to be much cleaner. 

[Nuance]

Thankfully, I've never had the ability real or perceived to tell the difference between high and low end cables and speaker wire, lol. I'm a strong believer in the theory of diminishing returns and find it hard to believe the incremental increases in sound quality could be worth the exponential increases in $. But, I'm sure there are plenty of audiophiles that would beg to differ.

Btw - didn't you reject an Emotiva amp as being too bright for your STs? Since this was my first foray into separates I don't have anything to compare mine with except the HK 7200 amps and they seem to be a significant improvement and seem to be much cleaner. 

I feel the same way.

It wasn't the amp that I didn't like, but rather the preamp (LMC-1).  It was bright one day, dull the next...just didn't make any sense to me.  It certainly left a bad taste in my mouth, but that doesn't mean their other products aren't nice.  I believe the LMC-1 was the first "budget" preamp they ever made.

[cnm_mike]

I am still working strictly in the Analog mode with the preamp. I have found several spots that makes the CD that Jim sends along with the ST sound pretty good. I am now trying to find a compromise spot that makes most of my CDs sound decent. Most of them sound thin, forward and have no bottom end.

I have had the speakers spread between 9.5 and 12 ft and from 5 inches out to 40" from the front wall. I have the speakers back to 9.5 feet between them and have pushed them back to 7 inches from the front wall to try to get some bottom end out of these guys. Pushing them back towards the front wall seems to help with the overall forwardness of the speakers. Does this make sense?

After Nuance mentioned corroded speaker wires, I remembered back when I was trimming my speaker cables to go on my new amp, that the bare wires felt gummy. I guess this happens to a 25 year old set of speaker cords. I replaced them temporarily with (don't laugh) romex to see if I could hear a difference. The top end really opened up. I going to suspend my tinkering until I can get into town this weekend to by some new cord (I live out in the boonies).

Even though I am suspending my tinkering, please keep the feedback and ideas coming in. I am not in love yet.

thx,
Mike

[cnm_mike]

The nearest Home Depot is an hour drive...
Mike

[oneinthepipe]

The nearest Home Depot is an hour drive...
Mike

You can get 50' of Belden 5000UE for less that $30.00 delivered from bswusa.com.

http://bswusa.com/searchresult.asp?searchType=keyword&searchValue=5000ue

They drop ship from various warehouses.  I placed an internet order on Sunday night with standard shipping, and the order was delivered today.

[Tone Depth]

Would adding a front center channel speaker and associated electronics help spread the soundstage?  Oops, upon more careful reading, post #22 addressed a center channel speaker.

[Nuance]

I suspect the issue is room acoustics.  I experimented with different rooms over the weekend and the sound difference was dramatic. They sounded better in the living room in comparison to the basement.  The basement really sucks the life out of them. 

Also, here's another option for speaker cable:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2747&seq=1&format=2

Have you tried the Cardas speaker placement previously suggested yet?  Square rooms are a disaster for sound, but it might help.  Here is the link again:
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=33&pagestring=Room
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

[oneinthepipe]

Also, here's another option for speaker cable:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2747&seq=1&format=2

I never put any faith in the claims about speaker wire.  However, I thought that there was a difference in sound with the Belden 5000UE wire compared to the monoprice wire.  Maybe it is purity of the copper or maybe it is psychoplaceboacoustics.  There is a thread on the AVA forum that started as a speaker wire gauge thread.

[cnm_mike]

Nuance,

I'm sure it's room acoustics. The room is not really 25x25, but it opens into other spaces (open floor plan). I have tried the mathematics approach, but due to many issues, I can't follow them. I still would like to know where all the bass goes!

Speaker wire - I need only 12 ft total so bulk orders is out of the question. Leaning towards ordering the Canare 4S11 or getting 14x4 wire from HD.
Mike

[adydula]

Hello!

You dont listen to 2 ch audio with the sound processing stuff in your receiver!!!  Well you can but if you cant get the simple 2 ch sound from known
well recorded sources to work well then adding the sound processing stuff is just going to mask deficiences and make things so much more confusing!!

To really get an idea of what your speakers will sound like, turn off all the processing HT stuff and play in 2 ch mode...once
you get this setup right then you can play with all the DSP HT sound processing stuff....


Room placement can be extremely critical and you keep playing until your out of physcial placement options. Then room treatments if needed.

Stick to the simple basic adjustments first.

Sorry, dont need to dictate or tell someone how to set their stuff up, but hate to see someone that owns such world class speakers not being able to really enjoy them.  

One comment I did pick up in your trying to set up the speakers to make all you cds 'good' you mention that some of the demo cuts on Jims disk sound ok but other cds you have not so good.

Well unless your have all the really great 'reference' cd's alot of cds out there will never sound good, because they just are not!

If you can get Jims demo disk to sound really realistic and good then your probably as about as good as its going to get in your room, if all the other basics of which many have mentioned (wires, connections etc) are ok.

A long time ago, 1987 I had a set of speakers with wires to an amplifier which was directly driven by a high end CD player / deck. The least amount of interconnections, the least amount of electronics...get the source to the transducers in the shortest simplest path available. No preamp, no Lexicon, no tape deck, etc....

It then is down to finding and enjoying the best of the best.

Best of Luck
Alex

[Nuance]

Also, here's another option for speaker cable:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2747&seq=1&format=2

I never put any faith in the claims about speaker wire.  However, I thought that there was a difference in sound with the Belden 5000UE wire compared to the monoprice wire.  Maybe it is purity of the copper or maybe it is psychoplaceboacoustics.  There is a thread on the AVA forum that started as a speaker wire gauge thread.

Which did you prefer?

[oneinthepipe]

Also, here's another option for speaker cable:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2747&seq=1&format=2

I never put any faith in the claims about speaker wire.  However, I thought that there was a difference in sound with the Belden 5000UE wire compared to the monoprice wire.  Maybe it is purity of the copper or maybe it is psychoplaceboacoustics.  There is a thread on the AVA forum that started as a speaker wire gauge thread.

Which did you prefer?

The Belden was better, IMO, and the volume appeared slightly louder with the Belden.  When I plugged in the Belden, and re-powered the amp and preamp, I thought that the volume seemed louder, and my wife and I tried switching the cables a few times, without adjusting the volume control, and the volume seemed louder with the Belden wire.  There could be other variables.  The monoprice wire was 14X4 run as two one pair cables, which would effectively be 11 gauge.  The Belden is 12 gauge.  The difference in sound, and surely some of the difference was related to perceived increase in volume, was not inconsequential.  With the Belden wire, the music sounded closer.  There appeared to be more music.  I didn't conduct a scientifically-based test, and do not have the capacity to conduct a test, but I thought that there was a perceivable difference.  I bought the Belden based on the experience of another member.  Maybe I was expecting a difference, since I spent 19.24 plus shipping for 50' of speaker wire, and maybe I convinced myself that there was a difference in order to believe that I didn't just waste 28.09.  However, I think that my listening is accurate enough to hear differences, but that could also be another rationalization.  Anyway, I spent thousands of dollars on audio gear last year, and the 28.09 would be inconsequential (another rationalization, perhaps).

[charmerci]

Hello!

You dont listen to 2 ch audio with the sound processing stuff in your receiver!!!  Well you can but if you cant get the simple 2 ch sound from known
well recorded sources to work well then adding the sound processing stuff is just going to mask deficiences and make things so much more confusing!!

To really get an idea of what your speakers will sound like, turn off all the processing HT stuff and play in 2 ch mode...once
you get this setup right then you can play with all the DSP HT sound processing stuff....


Room placement can be extremely critical and you keep playing until your out of physcial placement options. Then room treatments if needed.

Stick to the simple basic adjustments first.

Sorry, dont need to dictate or tell someone how to set their stuff up, but hate to see someone that owns such world class speakers not being able to really enjoy them.  

One comment I did pick up in your trying to set up the speakers to make all you cds 'good' you mention that some of the demo cuts on Jims disk sound ok but other cds you have not so good.

Well unless your have all the really great 'reference' cd's alot of cds out there will never sound good, because they just are not!

If you can get Jims demo disk to sound really realistic and good then your probably as about as good as its going to get in your room, if all the other basics of which many have mentioned (wires, connections etc) are ok.

A long time ago, 1987 I had a set of speakers with wires to an amplifier which was directly driven by a high end CD player / deck. The least amount of interconnections, the least amount of electronics...get the source to the transducers in the shortest simplest path available. No preamp, no Lexicon, no tape deck, etc....

It then is down to finding and enjoying the best of the best.

Best of Luck
Alex

Yeah, you'll need lots of luck. Years ago, I connected an Van Alstine CD player with a volume control directly to an Van Alstine amp. For years, he claimed never to have a field failure with any of his amps. After I blew the amp, he removed THAT claim from his advertising. He also removed the volume control from the CD player. Always use a good pre-amp.

[ThorsHammer]

Could it be something simple...did you make sure your speakers are set to "large" on your pre?

[cnm_mike]

Thorshammer,
The preamp has always been on "large" for the front speakers.
Mike

[Nuance]

^ Ah yes, we overlooked that one.  Good call.

Also, here's another option for speaker cable:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2747&seq=1&format=2

I never put any faith in the claims about speaker wire.  However, I thought that there was a difference in sound with the Belden 5000UE wire compared to the monoprice wire.  Maybe it is purity of the copper or maybe it is psychoplaceboacoustics.  There is a thread on the AVA forum that started as a speaker wire gauge thread.

Which did you prefer?

The Belden was better, IMO, and the volume appeared slightly louder with the Belden.  When I plugged in the Belden, and re-powered the amp and preamp, I thought that the volume seemed louder, and my wife and I tried switching the cables a few times, without adjusting the volume control, and the volume seemed louder with the Belden wire.  There could be other variables.  The monoprice wire was 14X4 run as two one pair cables, which would effectively be 11 gauge.  The Belden is 12 gauge.  The difference in sound, and surely some of the difference was related to perceived increase in volume, was not inconsequential.  With the Belden wire, the music sounded closer.  There appeared to be more music.  I didn't conduct a scientifically-based test, and do not have the capacity to conduct a test, but I thought that there was a perceivable difference.  I bought the Belden based on the experience of another member.  Maybe I was expecting a difference, since I spent 19.24 plus shipping for 50' of speaker wire, and maybe I convinced myself that there was a difference in order to believe that I didn't just waste 28.09.  However, I think that my listening is accurate enough to hear differences, but that could also be another rationalization.  Anyway, I spent thousands of dollars on audio gear last year, and the 28.09 would be inconsequential (another rationalization, perhaps).

Cool.  Thanks for the info.  I am glad you like the Belden stuff.

[fishinbob]

I feel many of us feel a little handcapped by your post as it is most likely an acoustic issue as many have mentioned and yet we persist with the ridiculous like the wire and such. Little by little we get the info re: the room ... and now we're dealing with the bass instead of focus as your op stated. Has that issue been resolved? Is your not 25 x 25 room open to the rear or one side? Furniture? Can you re-arrange it? Flooring? Any windows? Got a ceiling? Got a camera? We'd all like to help but were set adrift with a couple of your replys to the comments 

May I suggest you buy 100 ft of the H D wire and move your speakers to one corner of the room and place them diagonally across it and about 24" out ( at a 45 degree angle) from the wall to the rear and maybe 3ft to the side from each wall ( same two walls.. see where this is going aa). Just do it as an experiment. They're only 50 pounds or so I find them pretty easy to move around and the wire is cheap compared to your invesment. I'd hate to read your post about all you buying new front end stuff not getting you where you want to go.

I've posted this before and here it is again. It changes all of the reflection points and is my current setup. For my room it works very well, if its not for you.. oh well.

http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm

Have fun
Bob
PS: I apologize for being a grump.. and this will most likely not be a fix for bass other than adjusting the speakers proximity to the wall.

[Nuance]

I've posted this before and here it is again. It changes all of the reflection points and is my current setup. For my room it works very well, if its not for you.. oh well.

http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm

I just finished reading that link.  It sounds pretty straight forward and the guy makes sense.  I wonder how it would change things in my setup...?  Has anyone else tried this method?