AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Circles => General Archive => Topic started by: jaxwired on 14 Aug 2010, 05:28 pm
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I've been watching this guy for months now. Everything he sells is either brand new in the box or "just opened". He is obviously in cahoots with a dealer and selling the stuff below manufacturer retail to skirt the dealer agreements.
The days of fixed prices and 50% retail markup for high end audio products are numbered. There's no reason to pay those markups anymore given the lack of retailers. The manufacturers need to get a clue and just open things up to the internet and free market. Then prices will plummet. In the meantime, people like this will service the real market. It's unethical, but it's the fault of the manufacturers and distributors.
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I've been watching this guy for months now. Everything he sells is either brand new in the box or "just opened". He is obviously in cahoots with a dealer and selling the stuff below manufacturer retail to skirt the dealer agreements.
The days of fixed prices and 50% retail markup for high end audio products are numbered. There's no reason to pay those markups anymore given the lack of retailers. The manufacturers need to get a clue and just open things up to the internet and free market. Then prices will plummet. In the meantime, people like this will service the real market. It's unethical, but it's the fault of the manufacturers and distributors.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1286938099&/Bowers---Wilkins-B-w-805-Diamo
Care to share some more information regarding your investigation(I've been watching this guy for months now)? Care to share some facts corroborating your accusations(He is obviously in cahoots with a dealer and selling the stuff below manufacturer retail to skirt the dealer agreements)? You do realize what you're doing by posting your statements in public,don't you? Just wondering aloud.
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There have been folks out there selling gray market, demo and used goods for decades, and shopping via the internet is just the latest way to get around "dealer agreements". Try shopping at Audiophile Liquidators some time. The question is, are folks willing to pass on a manufacturer's warranty, and any sort of after purchase service in order to get a big discount? If so, there have always been ways around the local retail store.
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As long as the warranty is good and the product is in described condition you'll get no complaints from me.
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I don't know about that Audiogon ad in particular, but at one point I was considering a current model of a Rotel amp that was very lightly used. I asked the seller if he will furnish a receipt from the authorized dealer and he said no. The dealers are killing themselves with this behavior too. B&W of course will be sold at Best Buy's Magnolia come this fall. I suspect for the most part they will have the lower end models. Rotel is owned by the same company as B&W and I know a dealer who has been a loyal Rotel dealer for 20 years and recently they refused to fill an order indicating they are re-assessing their dealerships in the area. My gut feeling is that an announcement that Rotel is going to Magnolia is coming. It wouldn't surprise me if another company under the same umbrella went that route too (Classe). I think the hey day of the high end dealer is long gone and there will be fewer and fewer down the road. Some manufacturers are making some moves already to deal with the reality.
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Care to share some more information regarding your investigation(I've been watching this guy for months now)? Care to share some facts corroborating your accusations(He is obviously in cahoots with a dealer and selling the stuff below manufacturer retail to skirt the dealer agreements)?
Sure. He only sells, never buys (check his feedback). Everything he's sold for the last 6 months has been brand new or just opened and less than 2 weeks old. He always posts a lame transparent excuse. I haven't written down all the excuses, but they all are meant to convey that he is just a regular guy that changed his mind and is now selling. Know anybody that just changed their minds 28 times on new gear for a 6 month period? Ummm....no....guess not.
It's either coming from a dealer under the table or it's hot. Simple.
As for what I'm doing with this post, I only point it out to open discussion about high end retail and how poorly it is now serving it's customers.
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"The days of fixed prices and 50% retail markup for high end audio products are numbered".
I don't know what kind of crack you are smoking, I'd love to get a 50% mark up on what I sell. Most product start with a max of 40% and then we are nickled and dimed out of about 10% of that. We require about 25% in an item to draw even so that does not leave much room for any profit. Weigh the minor profit on audio against the negative profit on a tv and we just about draw even.
So, without the high end retailer where are you going to hear the product? Who are you going to call when you need technical advice? What are you going to do when something goes wrong and you have no warranty?
Smell the roses... Without the high end dealer there will be no high end.
You clearly did not think things through before making your post.
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"The days of fixed prices and 50% retail markup for high end audio products are numbered".
I don't know what kind of crack you are smoking, I'd love to get a 50% mark up on what I sell. Most product start with a max of 40% and then we are nickled and dimed out of about 10% of that. We require about 25% in an item to draw even so that does not leave much room for any profit. Weigh the minor profit on audio against the negative profit on a tv and we just about draw even.
So, without the high end retailer where are you going to hear the product? Who are you going to call when you need technical advice? What are you going to do when something goes wrong and you have no warranty?
Smell the roses... Without the high end dealer there will be no high end.
You clearly did not think things through before making your post.
LOL, I've put tons of thought into it. There are already plenty of mail order factory direct equipment sellers. They warranty and service their products. They mostly offer 30 day home trials with a money back option. That's the future. That's low overhead for the online retailer so they can survive with a much lower markup.
Their is just not enough high end market to support high end retail stores except in a few select areas.
People are already buying lots of product via the internet, but they either get no warranty because they didn't buy from an auth dealer or they have to pay full dealer price but get none of the service that price warrants.
I suppose you think it's just dandy for all the thousands of audiophiles that are without brick and mortar retailers to pay you full price for gear even though you offered no service beyond order taking.
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There are big manufactureres that have quotas for a dealer to meet each year. There are authorized dealers that secretly sells this way to keep their dealership intact.
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"The days of fixed prices and 50% retail markup for high end audio products are numbered".
I don't know what kind of crack you are smoking, I'd love to get a 50% mark up on what I sell. Most product start with a max of 40% and then we are nickled and dimed out of about 10% of that. We require about 25% in an item to draw even so that does not leave much room for any profit. Weigh the minor profit on audio against the negative profit on a tv and we just about draw even.
So, without the high end retailer where are you going to hear the product? Who are you going to call when you need technical advice? What are you going to do when something goes wrong and you have no warranty?
Smell the roses... Without the high end dealer there will be no high end.
You clearly did not think things through before making your post.
There will be some left but they will get fewer and fewer. Obviously a dealer can only carry so many lines. There are high end brands today that I would like to hear but I have no dealer within a reasonable distance. As more dealers disappear, the frequency of this will increase.
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While it doesn't say it is closing permanently (who knows), this is typical of what is happening out there:
http://www.soundbysinger.com/high-end-video/product_385
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I've been watching this guy for months now. Everything he sells is either brand new in the box or "just opened". He is obviously in cahoots with a dealer and selling the stuff below manufacturer retail to skirt the dealer agreements.
The days of fixed prices and 50% retail markup for high end audio products are numbered. There's no reason to pay those markups anymore given the lack of retailers. The manufacturers need to get a clue and just open things up to the internet and free market. Then prices will plummet. In the meantime, people like this will service the real market. It's unethical, but it's the fault of the manufacturers and distributors.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1286938099&/Bowers---Wilkins-B-w-805-Diamo
Hello Jaxwired,
I suggest the USA Hi-End dealers came live in my country, here is the paradise of Hi-Profit stores.
Take a look on some obscene prices:
Bryston B-100 amp 5,250 USdollars(basic version), info from a local magazine June2006.
Bryston B-100 amp 6,850 USdollars(DAC version), info from a local magazine June2006.
AYRE C-5XE universal player 9,600 USdollars, info from a local magazine June2006.
Van den Hul MC SILVER interconnect RCA 2,257 USdollars per metre, info from a local magazine June2006.
Van den Hul MC SILVER interconnect XLR 2,659 USdollars per metre, info from a local magazine June2006.
ASR Emiter 1 Exclusive integrated amp, 12,200 USdollars, info from a local magazine Feb2006.
DCS P8i2 CD-SACD player 19,000 USdollars, info from a local magazine Feb2006.
Crystal Cable Reference - speaker cable 2,4 metre stereo set 4,980 USdollars, info from a local magazine Feb2006.
Crystal Cable Reference - interconnect cable 2,4 metre stereo set 2,280 USdollars RCA or XLR, info from a local magazine Feb2006.
B&W 802D loudspeaker pair 14,000 USdollars, info from a local magazine Feb2006.
DYNAUDIO Evidence Temptation loudspeaker pair 42,000 USdollars, info from a local magazine Feb2006.
NAGRA PL-L line pre-amp 9,800 USdollars, info from a local magazine Feb2006.
ACCUPHASE C-2800 preamp, 19,900 USdollars, info from a local magazine Feb2006.
ACCUPHASE A-60 stereo power amp, 18,900 USdollars, info from a local magazine Feb2006.
KLIPSCH RF-83 loudspeaker pair 4,500 USdollars, info from a online shop ''on sale 25% OFF'' today.
The local Custom House taxes are 100% over product+ship+insurance, but these dealers receive back 70% from the Custom taxes as a tax bonus.
I do not think this kind of prices are fair or ethical, this look like a cartel to me. This consumer bullying will end one day, sooner or later.
I see online USA prices are very lower than these.
Regards, Gustavo
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Sure. He only sells, never buys (check his feedback). Everything he's sold for the last 6 months has been brand new or just opened and less than 2 weeks old. He always posts a lame transparent excuse. I haven't written down all the excuses, but they all are meant to convey that he is just a regular guy that changed his mind and is now selling. Know anybody that just changed their minds 28 times on new gear for a 6 month period? Ummm....no....guess not.
It's either coming from a dealer under the table or it's hot. Simple.
As for what I'm doing with this post, I only point it out to open discussion about high end retail and how poorly it is now serving it's customers.
Am I the only one here that has a problem with the OP accusing someone of doing something illegal and posting it on an open forum(It's either coming from a dealer under the table or it's hot. Simple.)? Just curious.
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Am I the only one here that has a problem with the OP accusing someone of doing something illegal and posting it on an open forum(It's either coming from a dealer under the table or it's hot. Simple.)? Just curious.
What's wrong with stating the obvious? Ok, how about this. The overwhelming evidence would indicate an extremely high likelyhood of unauthorized dealer sales by this seller, BUT there is a tiny tiny chance that it's legitimate (but can't think of any possible legit explanation myself, nor has anyone offered one).
Does that make you feel better?
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I absolutely have no problem with smaller retailers selling this way. They make money, the manufacturers make money and I save money. It's win-win-win. I've purchased many pieces of my home theater and stereo systems through the years from retailers on Audiogon, Videogon and eBay. None of them hid the fact that they were retailers but they did not advertise it either. I always ask for and have received brand authorized B&M store receipts for every piece I purchased. About half of the pieces I purchased were demo gear while the other half were brand spankin' new in sealed boxes.
I would not have been able to afford the quality systems I have today without the internet and retailers like these. My $11,000 MSRP stereo cost me $6,500 and my also $11,000 MSRP home theater was $5,300. It is the future of high-end audio retailing and it is here today.
And before anyone tut-tuts me for cheating my local high-end audio B&M store let me just say that I purchased every piece I have unheard based upon reviews and many hours of research. I never once walked into a store and checked out a piece of gear then went home and bought it online. (Well - I lie - I did see two of the HT items at Best Buy / Magnolia - but I wouldn't deal with those crooks of they were the last store on earth!) When I last auditioned equipment at local shops I purchased from a local shop.
Martin
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I think there is a lot of activity on Audiogon of this nature. I don't think there is anything necessarily illegal about it. I bought a 3 week old Bryston DAC. I talked to the seller by phone. He got me a receipt from the dealer. My impression of the situation is that he is well-to-do, gets special treatment from the dealer and buys lots of stuff. I have more of a problem with the guy selling the Rotel amp who tells me he is protecting the dealer vs. getting me a receipt telling me the dealer is a friend but knows he is doing this. He could simply have the dealer issue a receipt to him for an acceptable price to Rotel and sell me the unit. There's another high end dealer in my area who sells stuff on Audiogon from a zip code where he lives vs. the store which is in another zip in a neighboring state. He likely is doing this for some reason and it's not my business and I don't really care. As Martin's post notes "I absolutely have no problem with smaller retailers selling this way." I know dealers who have had good customers for years and sell to the customers after they move from the area. They will often give them a break since they can't provide the same local service. I'm sure some manufacturers who have dealers where the customer has moved would not be totally happy with the arrangement but I don't personally care.
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Some ideas. The dealer selling under the table may be having to buy in enough quantity to maintain the connection to the company, but because he does not have a large enough customer base, blows out stuff to other parts of the country (screwing dealers in those areas)
Dealers have to get rid of stock on site to pay the rent. They CAN sell it off at a lot less because it is out of area, and is just raising immediate needed cash.
Folks can have an illegal grey market connection to the Chinese origin of many products: witness Parasound: no authorised dealer, no service. period.
The dealer network is a mess, nearly all of them have dealers with no store.
Many of the companies are trying to sort out who is really a dealer, and who is not. They got carrie away and now are paying the price for the confusion. i knew several dudes who are by appt only, and it is in a home. Sometimes a customers!! who bought the item from the dude.
Direct sales is in the future. I like having a few B&M dealers around. but even in my local million plus local market they are screwed. Only one seems well enough off currently. The other B&Ms are just bailing water as fast as they can, hoping not to capsize.
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'Diverted' merchandise happens in many industries...it's not exclusive to high-end audio.
It's usually high-end something in some industry that's diverted...but definitely not exclusive to our little nook of the retail world.
John (25 years selling consumer products in various niches and geographical regions)
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'Diverted' merchandise happens in many industries...it's not exclusive to high-end audio.
It's usually high-end something in some industry that's diverted...but definitely not exclusive to our little nook of the retail world.
John (25 years selling consumer products in various niches and geographical regions)
I'm waiting for a 'diverted' Magna Cart Flatform .... :wink:
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40 points is the normal margin for audio. It is MUCH higher for wire, cables, accessories, etc.
There are very few other retail businesses that still command 40 points.
Making big profits has been declared pure evil. Didn't audiophiles get the memo?
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I'm waiting for a 'diverted' Magna Cart Flatform .... :wink:
amazon!
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Am I the only one here that has a problem with the OP accusing someone of doing something illegal and posting it on an open forum(It's either coming from a dealer under the table or it's hot. Simple.)? Just curious.
I understand your concern decal, but may I gently say I think it's unfounded. I think it would be unethical to make suppositions like this if he had named the seller, unless he had hard evidence that this was the case. But using an un-named example to make a point regarding internet sales and how they relate to dealers and manufacturers is harming no one. He could make up the story out of whole cloth and I think everyone would recognize the situation in general as true.
One need only look to the pages herein to see the large number of manufacturers and dealers both large and small selling direct on the internet out of this site. I try to support my local dealers and have bought many items there. But seriously, how much service are you getting on a pair of interconnects? Or a CDP, or an amplifier? Speakers I like to listen to and I don't listen at the dealer then buy on the internet, if he gives me his time and expertise I give him the sale. The same goes for turntables, but I've run across several good deals used on the internet and haven't bought a table from a dealer since the mid 1980's. My last CDP I bought from a dealer because he took the time to audition several for me, but it now runs as a transport feeding a DAC I bought on the internet.
The market has undoubtedly already changed and brick and mortar only stores are going the way of the dodo. It may be sad, but you cannot deny the power of the free market. Leftover older model Magna Carts are going for fire sale prices on the net. :icon_lol:
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As for what I'm doing with this post, I only point it out to open discussion about high end retail and how poorly it is now serving it's customers.
My idea of high end retail is a physical place where someone spends a lot of his/her time and experience helping you to make choices for the long run. You can even make some friends in the store if you stay long enough.
On the other hand, I view Audiogon (and other e-tailers) as the place for a quick sale, used gear, and you take your chances based on what you read, not what you hear. I think there is room for both places in this world, they're just not the same thing.
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if he gives me his time and expertise I give him the sale.
Amen to that! :thumb:
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The only dealers I have within 50 miles are lame (they carry Rotel, Paradigm, and Anthem as their high end stuff). Within a 200 mile radius all but two stores are primarily A/V outlets. Those two are barely stores (nothing remotely close to a decent listening room), but are the only ones to carry one or two pieces of tubed equipment. None of these places admit to ever having heard of any of the A/C brands or know what an audiofest is.
I'm sensitive to the challenge of B&M audio retail, compared to on-line shopping they offer:
1. Typically a weekend loaner policy to trial pieces;
2. Hopefully a direct number to manufacturer's service departments.
OTOH:
1. They don't carry any brands I'm interested in;
2. They don't offer advice any better than I can find here;
3. Their listening spaces are less ideal than my room;
4. Anything they carry that might be comparable to stuff I'm interested in is over priced.
So what's a boy to do?
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So, without the high end retailer where are you going to hear the product? Who are you going to call when you need technical advice? What are you going to do when something goes wrong and you have no warranty?
Smell the roses... Without the high end dealer there will be no high end.
You clearly did not think things through before making your post.
I think high-end audio can do quite well without dealers. To me, they're just dinosaurs.
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40 points is the normal margin for audio. It is MUCH higher for wire, cables, accessories, etc.
There are very few other retail businesses that still command 40 points.
I've seen some price lists within the last year that show that a number of speaker companies are still building in a 100% markup for the dealer.
Musical instruments often have the same markup too. (I'm not sure how many dealers expect to get retail price on instruments these days though. Probably not very many.)
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In terms of speaker comparisons, I'd like to have a location to compare these. I went with a friend a while back to listen to speakers in the 4-10k range. We listened to a ton of speakers, each using exactly the same equipment, interconnects, and room. That was great (we both liked Dynaudio of all the speakers we heard at that time).
This type of scenario doesn't really exist anymore. I did have someone come over to listen to my VMPS RM40s and Salk HT3s, but that's on my gear in my room. He commented that both speakers had "too much bass", which I think is due to a massive room mode. Also, I didn't have my preamp in the lineup, and my modified Squeezebox doesn't have enough voltage output to drive my amps to be able to play the speakers very loudly. This is an OK situation, but it's not as if I could rotate in another 5-6 speakers.
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I'm waiting for a 'diverted' Magna Cart Flatform .... :wink:
Ha - that's about the highest form of flattery in consumer products...diverted goods.
Reality is in a for-profit business, many makers give tacit lip service about diverted goods ending up at unauthorized retailers...but, they love the additional volume and profits :green:
I remember my doe-eyed, sister-in-law who worked for AVEDA (high end cosmetics) several years back...when my wife asked how a brand (supposedly) only sold to salons ended up in her discount cosmetic store in Washington DC. Her pat answer, supplied to her by her bosses, was 'diverted goods'. Ha - 7 times out of 10 the 'diversion' is in full cahoots with the manufacturer itself.
Eager to post higher sales and profits to satisfy, goods get quietly diverted.
Moreover, me and the company are pretty much HO'S already - if you can buy a container load from us - you're a dealer (ka-ching!). If you can only swing $1200.00 minimum...we have domestic product for you at slightly higher prices...or you can buy from a national retail distributor we've appointed in Chicago. Distributors outside of US? - you betcha'; 7 countries covering about 20 more countries :thumb:
It's a lot different than high-end audio. It's a friggin' hand truck - very nice ones to some perhaps - we don't have any pretense that it's anything more or less. So, diverted goods wouldn't happen from us as we'll just sell you if you ask us :icon_lol:
To me, brick n mortar dealers of high end audio are simply anachronisms of a forgotten time. To survive, you need to do either or both repairs and (video/audio) installation. It's such a small market and the net has made democratization a reality - it eradicates the large-scale need for high-end dealers, by and large. I mentioned this in a post over 5 years ago I think and got lambasted by a couple B & M dealers; but what was said then is even more appropriate now.
btw, Amazon is 'authorized' and the price on the Flatform Truck is sensational. After free shipping, I doubt those guys are making more than $8 on it for profit. Seriously, those guys know how to build an online business (getting folks to buy and then post reviews is critical to propelling future sales) - we've been with them for about 7 years now. Once they get sales going, that cart goes to $79.99.
John
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I try to support my local dealers and have bought many items there.
I don't really have any local dealers. There are a couple of places that sell home theater equipment, but they don't know anything about stereo, and they're not terribly interested in selling anything but custom home theater installations.
There were several high-end dealers when I was younger. I used to go in and look around, but they treated me like crap because I didn't have much money. One even told me I was wasting his time because I couldn't afford the stuff he wanted to sell.
So, when I had money, I didn't go to these places.
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He commented that both speakers had "too much bass
Friend, it seems like you need to trade in a pair of speakers for room treatments and some EQ.
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Friend, it seems like you need to trade in a pair of speakers for room treatments and some EQ.
I had two mondo traps (corners), three regular traps (ceiling + first reflection points), two thin traps (between speakers), two "stand" traps (no longer made) (corners), (all Realtraps) and two subwoofer traps (ASC) (under subs, but subs weren't in use) in this room. That's well over 1k in traps. Not sure I could get the wife to agree to any more traps, or if I'd have the money or space for them.
I'm considering electronic methods, but I've since totally gutted the room and completely reversed the locations of the speakers. The room should be done in a few weeks and we'll see what happens then.
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It might be over 2K in traps.
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He commented that both speakers had "too much bass", which I think is due to a massive room mode.
I'm considering electronic methods, but I've since totally gutted the room and completely reversed the locations of the speakers. The room should be done in a few weeks and we'll see what happens then.
Have you measured your room? Free software is available from HT Shack and the equipment necessary to perform the measurements cost around $150 (mic, mic cable, sound card and SPL meter).
Measuring my room help me understand the bass issues inherent in my room.
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When purchasing used from Wild Wild West that is the internet, even though something is considered "new" it is much to expect to get a receipt and also warranty from the manufacturer.
Since discovering Audiogon, there has been just 2 pieces that have been bought from a "dealer" with its obvious manufacturer's warranties.
I believe in recyling audio, meaning, I purchase items out of warranty, vintage stuff etc.... paying 40-50% at most for the majority of items, most of the stuff I purchase though are not stuff that is esoteric and horribly difficult to repair (like HT receivers, and equipment with several dozen PCB with micro components) so in case that something goes bust, they are easily fixable.
There are items that are contemporary, modern, with digital modules that I crave BUT, I ain't paying more than $300 MAX for stuff like this.
When people catch up with high end, they tend to go the simple, reliable route and unless one has endless revenue stream available, people tend to purchase 'used' with very little expected from a Mortar Dealer in terms of experience and setup choices.
Talking about longevity and value....look at the following story...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1224975981&read&keyw&zzjbl=075
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To me, brick n mortar dealers of high end audio are simply anachronisms of a forgotten time.
I would actually go into a local dealer and think about buying from them, if they first and foremost offered service and treated me like they wanted my business.
A typical dealer experience for me was at an AKFest. I went into this room where some dealer had all this ARC gear and a pair of enormous Maggies. I sat and listened for about a minute and got up to leave. They two salesman buttonholed me and asked me what I thought of their system. I replied that it was hard to tell because the speakers were too big for the room.
They started telling me that the last 10 people who stopped by just came in their pants because they loved it so much. Then they said I must not be used to gear of such a high caliber as the products they carried.
On the other hand, when I visited his room, Jim Salk was very gracious and friendly, and he also freely admitted that the rooms were not ideal. He told me that I could contact him and see if some owners in my area might be able to let me get a listen to his speakers in a better environment, or I could come listen to them at his place if I were in the area. He also told me that an in-home trial was available for some of his speakers.
I left Jim's room feeling like I had just made a new friend.
Guess who I'm more likely to buy from?
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Have you measured your room? Free software is available from HT Shack and the equipment necessary to perform the measurements cost around $150 (mic, mic cable, sound card and SPL meter).
Measuring my room help me understand the bass issues inherent in my room.
Here's one of my many measurements:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=6188)
So, yes I've measured my room. I could never tell whether that hump at about 60Hz was AC leakage into the measurement or a true hump.
Here's what the room looked like when I made these measurements (though no traps are shown; got those later):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=3986)
Here's what the room looked like about two weeks ago:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=33624)
The speakers (sold the VMPS and kept the Salks) will be on the opposite wall, now, which is not shown in these pictures. So, the frequency response of the room may or may not have the same hump.
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They two salesman buttonholed me and asked me what I thought of their system. I replied that it was hard to tell because the speakers were too big for the room.
They started telling me that the last 10 people who stopped by just came in their pants because they loved it so much. Then they said I must not be used to gear of such a high caliber as the products they carried.
Boldfaced for effect....ha...haven't tried that line and I think I'll avoid it entirely in the future.
Doesn't seem like much of a come on for my dealers :lol:
John
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My idea of high end retail is a physical place where someone spends a lot of his/her time and experience helping you to make choices for the long run. You can even make some friends in the store if you stay long enough.
On the other hand, I view Audiogon (and other e-tailers) as the place for a quick sale, used gear, and you take your chances based on what you read, not what you hear. I think there is room for both places in this world, they're just not the same thing.
My thinking, also. I miss Audio Concepts in Houston. Nice place to hang out and get some hands on exposure to new stuff not to mention listen.
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40 points is the normal margin for audio. It is MUCH higher for wire, cables, accessories, etc.
There are very few other retail businesses that still command 40 points.
Making big profits has been declared pure evil. Didn't audiophiles get the memo?
For some of the best known dealers it can be up to 60%. Most will offer a discount of 10 to 20%. If your a good customer a better deal can be had. Cash talks credit walks.
Saying that I believe we all would like the best price. So wether E-bay audiogon, private or dealer its the price. A good deal is a good deal.
What I think is MIA is the push towards main stream exposure. The days of the High End Botique is dwindling. Best Buy, Walmart, why not. The only area where I see an issue is with customer service with the big guys. Believe me dealing with some Manufacturers can be a nightmare. Service if needed should be the deciding factor, not just price.
charles
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CT,
I'm sure that 60 Hz peak is room/speaker related and would be classic application for EQ. Frankly if I had that much AC leakage, I'd be selling power (or running for my life). :icon_lol:
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Saying that I believe we all would like the best price. So wether E-bay audiogon, private or dealer its the price. A good deal is a good deal.
I want a fair price.
I also don't shop solely based on price. I try to consider service too.
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You know, this is a very timely thread for me. I recently moved to Berlin from Tokyo and every time I land in a new city I try and check out the local HiFi shops to see what's shakin'. I stopped by a pretty well known shop in Berlin three days ago; they had a great website and their setup looked absolutely fantastic (18 separate "listening studios" decked out with about 20 different brands). I was excited. I needed to pick up a pair of speaker stands as well so I thought this would be a great chance.
Within about 5 minutes I was very aware why I stopped shopping at B&M stores. The minute these guys heard I was only looking for speaker stands (and wasn't interested in the $800.00 one they had sitting up front) they didn't want anything to do with me. I had brought a book of CD's with hopes of listening to some new stuff but that wasn't going to happen. They actually gave me crap because they had to go to the back to pull some stands out for me. No offer to even take them out of the box to show me.
Now, I'll be the first to admit, the Germans are NOT famous for their customer service, but this kind of experience is not unique to this store. I can't figure out dealers of hifi equipment. I don't think I have ever had a good experience at a dealer. Most act like they are put out when they have to show you something and if you have questions or want to actually sit at listen to something they act as if you're wasting their time. Nothing frosts me more than a salesmen that rushes me through a demo when there is a COMPLETELY empty store! If you were swamped with customers, OK, but come on...
I'm still looking for that mythical B&M store where you can "hang out, listen to music, talk gear, and enjoy yourself." Basically an AudioCircle in a box. I've never seen a place like that and until I do, I think I'm pretty much done with retail shopping. I came home and told my wife what a crappy experience I'd had and that I've decided that if I can't buy it online, I'm not interested. The ONLY plus I can see to a dealer is the chance to hear something before you buy it. Service and support seems to be MUCH better from just about everyone manufacturer I've come across here at AC (Jim Salk mentioned above is a PRIME example). With more and more internet companies offering 30 day in home trial periods, even the dealer's only edge is slowly being eroded.
So yeah, I'm done with B&M audio shops (and really pretty much B&M everything). My postman doesn't so much care for my internet shopping, but what can you do...
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When dealing with B&Ms, I generally know what dealer pricing is and I'm not willing to pay more than cost +10% especially when I'm buying something and all the dealer is doing is taking my money and wheeling the handtruck to my vehicle or drop shipping to my home address....paying more for such a transaction is kinda like tipping for Chinese carryout imo.
If a dealer offers free home delivery/set-up, pick-up (in case of repair situations), has on-site repair capabilities and offers demo/loaner services...and I have need of such services....then I am willing to pay more by means of additional service charges as per needed. I am not willing to take a MSRP frontend hit to support services I have no need for.
Given the decline in popularity of the "Stereo" medium (and the rise of the Ipod generation)
it seems the odds of running a financially successful B&M operation are quite dismal unless located in a large "cosmopolitan" zip code such as Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, etc...where the "demand" and money are geographically concentrated.
For the rest of us I think online business models such as Audio Advisor and Crutchfield are most likely the future.
Though I'm not holding my breath I also hope to eventually see more manufacturer direct sales from established "boutique" brands such as Ayre, Boulder, Bryston, McIntosh as their existing MSRPs are stupid expensive and I would chance to guess the majority of aphiles need little "help" in system set-up and can deal with transporting a box to UPS if any service repairs are needed.
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I'm still looking for that mythical B&M store where you can "hang out, listen to music, talk gear, and enjoy yourself." Basically an AudioCircle in a box. I've never seen a place like that and until I do, I think I'm pretty much done with retail shopping. I came home and told my wife what a crappy experience I'd had and that I've decided that if I can't buy it online, I'm not interested. The ONLY plus I can see to a dealer is the chance to hear something before you buy it. Service and support seems to be MUCH better from just about everyone manufacturer I've come across here at AC (Jim Salk mentioned above is a PRIME example). With more and more internet companies offering 30 day in home trial periods, even the dealer's only edge is slowly being eroded.
bigjppop the next time you're in the DC metro area try Deja VU Audio in McLean, Va and JS Audio in Bethesda, Md. I have fond memories of setting in both of these stores for hours and only purchased from one. They both really indulged me until I found what I was looking for.
Ric
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When dealing with B&Ms, I generally know what dealer pricing is and I'm not willing to pay more than cost +10% especially when I'm buying something and all the dealer is doing is taking my money and wheeling the handtruck to my vehicle or drop shipping to my home address....paying more for such a transaction is kinda like tipping for Chinese carryout imo.
If a dealer offers free home delivery/set-up, pick-up (in case of repair situations), has on-site repair capabilities and offers demo/loaner services...and I have need of such services....then I am willing to pay more by means of additional service charges as per needed. I am not willing to take a MSRP frontend hit to support services I have no need for.
Given the decline in popularity of the "Stereo" medium (and the rise of the Ipod generation)
it seems the odds of running a financially successful B&M operation are quite dismal unless located in a large "cosmopolitan" zip code such as Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, etc...where the "demand" and money are geographically concentrated.
For the rest of us I think online business models such as Audio Advisor and Crutchfield are most likely the future.
Though I'm not holding my breath I also hope to eventually see more manufacturer direct sales from established "boutique" brands such as Ayre, Boulder, Bryston, McIntosh as their existing MSRPs are stupid expensive and I would chance to guess the majority of aphiles need little "help" in system set-up and can deal with transporting a box to UPS if any service repairs are needed.
very well said. agree 100%
charles
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I'm still looking for that mythical B&M store where you can "hang out, listen to music, talk gear, and enjoy yourself."
Like so many other things in life, it might take more than one visit. :D That kind of friendly, hang out and chat at the barber shop environment develops over a period of many visits. You should go back and visit the store and hang out anyway. Go there just because you are having fun and killing time, not because you are in a hurry to buy anything. Eventually you might make a friend or two. You might even hear something that surprises you. Most dealers understand this and that's why they want you to hang out. But dealers are real people, not computer programs, so you have to give and take just like you do with your other friends.
Back in the day when we had five really good stores in our area, there was only one store that I didn't feel comfortable hanging out in. So, I just didn't go to that one.
I personally would not want to be selling anything in an environment where the customer insists that he only pay "X" percent over cost because of what he knows from the internet. The internet has made armchair experts out of most of us, myself included. We don't really know what it takes to run a successful retail business day in and day out for many years. I respect those of you who can do it, whether B&M or internet sales. You have a right to be paid for your work just like any other profession.
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I personally would not want to be selling anything in an environment where the customer insists that he only pay "X" percent over cost because of what he knows from the internet.
Most resellers fear the educated consumer! :icon_lol:
what would you expect given the plethora of available info AND a shrinking market segment?
imo resellers need to diversify and/or have enough product lines that allow them to move volume.
Most sucessful resellers I know of make 90%+ of their profit on AV purchases and accompanying install labor :thumb: This should allow for better pricing on 2 channel hard goods :wink: ...besides, of the AV crowd, many of them are not as educated therefore they can more easily be fleeced of cash through magic wire sales. evil imo, but buyer beware.
There are purchasing groups resellers can join that allow them to get volume discounts which should translate to more competitive pricing while still making a profit.
Also, I would think a reseller or reseller network should be able to provide online services where the customer can buy direct online and have the product drop shipped directly from the manufacturer for a further discount...this would alleviate inventory stocking costs and therefore should translate to no loss of profit if managed properly.
imo, the reason most B&Ms go out of business is they (and manufacturers!) are unwilling to change outdated business models and that is not my problem. Adapt and overcome :thumb:
Whether it's Music Direct or Audio Advisor....where I can buy new open box specials, dealer demos, returns, etc... for as much as MSRP -35%, Manufacturers such as McIntosh offering generous price discounts for trade-in/trade-up programs, etc... imo there's enough profit to go around if the manufacturers and dealers work together. :thumb:
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I'm still looking for that mythical B&M store where you can "hang out, listen to music, talk gear, and enjoy yourself." Basically an AudioCircle in a box. I've never seen a place like that and until I do, I think I'm pretty much done with retail shopping.
Audible Arts in Campbell, CA and the Analog Room in San Jose, CA are both like this.
There are a number of people who go to Audible Arts and just hang out there on the weekend listening to music. Same with the Analog Room. I'm not one of those people, but I thought it was interesting.
The rule that i use is that if I audition gear at a dealer and I decide to buy it then I must buy it from the dealer I used for the audition.
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The rule that i use is that if I audition gear at a dealer and I decide to buy it then I must buy it from the dealer I used for the audition.
Me, too - exactly.
That's one of the reasons I avoid B & M dealers...I feel too obligated to buy something from them after wasting their time.
I was truly friends with my dealer on Long Island some 20 years ago...so I never felt such obligation. But, now, unless I have bought something from them previously....it; doesn't feel right to dilly dally around with them.
That's just me (and, it appears, wilysnet :)), I'm not trying to foist my moral code on anyone. I just found it interesting that someone else thought like me on the subject.
John
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I'm still looking for that mythical B&M store where you can "hang out, listen to music, talk gear, and enjoy yourself." Basically an AudioCircle in a box. I've never seen a place like that and until I do, I think I'm pretty much done with retail shopping.
I'll add a couple more to this list if yourself or others are in the Philadelphia area. Stereo Trading Outlet in Jenkintown and Quest for Sound in Bensalem. I've been buying from STO for 20 years and although they have changed with the times to become more of a HT shop, they still offer a friendly environment. I haven't purchased anything from Quest for Sound yet and still get treated like a long time customer, they also have an excellent repair shop. I'll throw in a shout out for Audiolab in Oxford Valley, a shadow of what they once were, but I still have a soft spot for them.
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I live in a smaller marketing area of about 250K people. At one time there was 5 hi end stores in the area. Now I have to drive at least 100 miles one way to find a brick and mortar shop. I rely more on the internet and places like Audiogon more than ever.
Dave
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I live in the NYC area and have come across some horrible dealers, but also met one or two good ones. In buying pretty much anything, I think it's best to buy from who you think deserves your business most.
I won't buy something I don't like. No matter how good the dealer is. Dealers tend to forget this. They get worked up when they spend a lot of time setting up a demo and you tell them it's not what you had in mind and thank them for their time. It seems elementary that customers won't buy what they don't like, but these guys forget that.
There's a moron who I made the mistake of stopping in his shop twice. He's down the street and has some gear I'm interested in. First time I went in was to hear an NAD 320BEE. He made it pretty obvious that it wasn't worth his time to let me hear it. It was set up in one of his rooms, so it's not like he had to do anything more than hand me a remote and walk away. I was the only one in the shop at the time too. He told me to buy a Marantz receiver because "at that price point they're all crap." He didn't like it when I asked him why he sells crap.
I bought a 320BEE from a dealer down the road who was great.
A few years later I was looking for new speakers, and the idiot was the only dealer of the brand I wanted. I convinced myself that maybe the guy was having a bad day. I've said and done some things in the past that I shouldn't have too.
I went in and asked him if he had the specific speaker (Audio Physic Yata monitors). After asking me why I wanted to go from towers to monitors - my room was too small for my then towers - he brings me into a room and demos Revel F12 towers that ate twice as big and have more drivers than my speakers did. Next he puts on B&W 685 towers that are still bigger than the speakers I have. I tell him they sound nice, but I want to hear the Yaras. He makes a face and brings me into another room. He proceeds to play the biggest Maggies in the shop.
As I was walking out, I saw the Yaras set up in the 3rd room. I guess he didn't think they were for me. It wasn't like he was trying to sell me more expensive speakers - they were all within the same price range.
I found the Yaras on Audiogon, and bought them for a price I knew I could resell them for if I didn't like them. 3 years later, they're the best speaker I've heard for their full retail price. I'm glad it worked out that way.
But I've found 2 dealers who do things the way they should be done. My favorite store sets up everything they sell. They'll loan out anything (with a credit card deposit) for a home demo, and will order anything they don't stock without the hassle of having to commit to buy it. They'd rather demo it for you to make sure it's what you really want. Can't say enough good things about those guys, so I'll give them a plug...
If you're in the Westchester County, NY area, check out Accent on Music in Mount Kisco. Great people who know how to earn your business and friendship. No BS, just the love of music.
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But I've found 2 dealers who do things the way they should be done. My favorite store sets up everything they sell. They'll loan out anything (with a credit card deposit) for a home demo, and will order anything they don't stock without the hassle of having to commit to buy it. They'd rather demo it for you to make sure it's what you really want. Can't say enough good things about those guys, so I'll give them a plug...
If you're in the Westchester County, NY area, check out Accent on Music in Mount Kisco. Great people who know how to earn your business and friendship. No BS, just the love of music.
I wish more dealers were like this. Hell, I wish more businesses in general were like this.
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Nice post above, Stu. Wish your dealer good fortune.
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Wow, I wonder what other items you guys refuse to buy because of capitalism's dirty little secret (that people sell things for more than they paid for them).
Ever buy a greeting card? Cup of coffee? Meal at a restaurant? Perfume? Go to a movie? Medicine? Beer? etc. :o
I couldn't imagine going through life denying myself basically everything because someone makes a little money off of their efforts.
-Mike
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Mikey, have I missed the point or have you :o?
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Sorry, Jim. Painting with that broad brush again, I guess :oops:.
Maybe I was tired of seeing audio retailers (I guess because my brother is one) singled out as being useless dinosaurs for trying to earn an honest yet barely decent living. I certainly do agree that if a shop has provided you nothing of value, then you owe them nothing.
When I bought your Diffbegons I honestly didn't think of what a square foot of felt and a pr of scissors would cost me, but I did think that here was an innovative idea from a guy who truly seems like one of the good guys who I don't mind supporting. But that's me.
I am well aware that it's a tough climate out there for the B+M guys - They are expected to stock millions in inventory yet only make a pittance for their efforts. (12% interest on $1,000,000 is $120,000, or $10,000 per month. Since some here demand no more than a 10 point profit for the dealer, he'd have to sell $100,000 in gear per month simply to service the debt. And that doesn't put any new gear on the shelves, pay staff, etc. Sorry, I'm no business major that was an off-the-cuff analysis)
I heard a union leader say years ago that all he knew was that what was good for his members (higher pay and better benefits with less work output) was good for the country. But maybe we've seen this swing too far lately?
Analogously, what may be good for the audiophile (no dealers and no dealer mark-up) in the short-term might not be good for the future of the hobby as a whole.
OK back to work...
Everyone have a great weekend and best wishes for Earl...
-Mike
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Maybe I was tired of seeing audio retailers (I guess because my brother is one) singled out as being useless dinosaurs for trying to earn an honest yet barely decent living. I certainly do agree that if a shop has provided you nothing of value, then you owe them nothing.
I'm sorry if you were offended. I simply said that, to me, audio dealers are dinosaurs. Later in the thread I elaborated on this and told a bit about my experiences with dealers.
I generally buy direct from the manufacturer. I've found that I get better service this way, and also better products.
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Sorry, Jim. Painting with that broad brush again, I guess :oops:.
Maybe I was tired of seeing audio retailers (I guess because my brother is one) singled out as being useless dinosaurs for trying to earn an honest yet barely decent living. I certainly do agree that if a shop has provided you nothing of value, then you owe them nothing.
When I bought your Diffbegons I honestly didn't think of what a square foot of felt and a pr of scissors would cost me, but I did think that here was an innovative idea from a guy who truly seems like one of the good guys who I don't mind supporting. But that's me.
I am well aware that it's a tough climate out there for the B+M guys - They are expected to stock millions in inventory yet only make a pittance for their efforts. (12% interest on $1,000,000 is $120,000, or $10,000 per month. Since some here demand no more than a 10 point profit for the dealer, he'd have to sell $100,000 in gear per month simply to service the debt. And that doesn't put any new gear on the shelves, pay staff, etc. Sorry, I'm no business major that was an off-the-cuff analysis)
I heard a union leader say years ago that all he knew was that what was good for his members (higher pay and better benefits with less work output) was good for the country. But maybe we've seen this swing too far lately?
Analogously, what may be good for the audiophile (no dealers and no dealer mark-up) in the short-term might not be good for the future of the hobby as a whole.
OK back to work...
Everyone have a great weekend and best wishes for Earl...
-Mike
No need to explain on my account, Michael, but thanks. I've was just funnin wit ya. You da man!
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You said that very well Mike!
Excellent post!!! :thumb:
8)
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Stu I'll second Accent on Music in Mt kisco. besides being the best Linn TT set up man around they are pleasant nice people. great store if one likes what they sell.
charles
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Be happy you live in an area with good dealers. I gave up on St. Louis, MO dealers a long time ago. My last purchases were from Immedia in Berkley, CA. And that has been a while back.
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One of the first things I learned in business school was the old saying, "You can eliminate the middleman but you can't eliminate the middleman's function". As a former audio retailer myself I was very much aware of the function we provided: bringing the goods to the customer so he could actually see and hear them before purchase, education as to what goes into a good sound system (and how to do it all within your chosen budget), and a comfortable place to relax and enjoy before you buy. Then, of course, we had to offer the goods at a competitive price.
Over the years, many of these functions have been shifted elsewhere. The internet can give you lots of information about the goods and you can often buy direct from the mfg. The education function is provided by reviews and, particularly, by "objective" hobbyists on this and other forums. The listening is a problem but the common 30 day trial goes a long way to offset that.
All that is left for the quality retailer to provide is the opportunity for comparative listening and a fun place to relax and hang out. When so many of the middleman's functions have been picked up by other channels, the retailer is too often left with the just hang out crowd and not enough of them spend enough money to keep very many of these retailers in business.
It is no one's "fault". It is just the way it is.
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One of the first things I learned in business school was the old saying, "You can eliminate the middleman but you can't eliminate the middleman's function". As a former audio retailer myself I was very much aware of the function we provided: bringing the goods to the customer so he could actually see and hear them before purchase, education as to what goes into a good sound system (and how to do it all within your chosen budget), and a comfortable place to relax and enjoy before you buy. Then, of course, we had to offer the goods at a competitive price.
Over the years, many of these functions have been shifted elsewhere. The internet can give you lots of information about the goods and you can often buy direct from the mfg. The education function is provided by reviews and, particularly, by "objective" hobbyists on this and other forums. The listening is a problem but the common 30 day trial goes a long way to offset that.
All that is left for the quality retailer to provide is the opportunity for comparative listening and a fun place to relax and hang out. When so many of the middleman's functions have been picked up by other channels, the retailer is too often left with the just hang out crowd and not enough of them spend enough money to keep very many of these retailers in business.
It is no one's "fault". It is just the way it is.
As far as mentioning "comparitive" listening....evaluating any piece of gear at a dealer, imo is of little use as the differences in room acoustics are most likely going to skew results.
Low volume drives higher prices only if demand exists. Given a shrinking 2 channel market segment it is my opinion demand is also shrinking and therefore prices should drop. :thumb:
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As far as mentioning "comparitive" listening....evaluating any piece of gear at a dealer, imo is of little use as the differences in room acoustics are most likely going to skew results.
I totally disagree. I went with a friend to review speakers in the 4-10k range. We listened to at least 10 different sets of speakers in the same room with all the same gear, interconnects, speaker wire, etc. It was easy to select winners doing it that way. And there's really no other way to do this. I had someone over my house to listen to two different sets of speakers, but only two. The place I went to with my friend is long gone, so the days of listening to many different items are pretty much gone, unless you can go to one of these meetings.
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Surely not everything can be delivered to and heard at home. Next to last purchase I made was a turntable. Phono cartridges? A dealer pal called me when a customer of his traded up to a then top of the line ARC pre. Another one in Dallas decided not to carry an active speaker which I drove up and brought home. I miss that. Miss getting to hear new products and bumping into fellow phools on a Saturday. I did get a sort of brush off at Lyric in NY but that was OK, I wasn't expecting less. I was a tourist, after all.
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I miss Audio Concepts in Houston. Nice place to hang out and get some hands on exposure to new stuff not to mention listen.
I drove to Houston to buy my Ayre AX-7e, CX-7e and 5-Pxe from Audio Concepts because I refuse to patronize Audio Concepts in Dallas (no relation) - and I gladly paid list for the privilege to do so. However, the guy who "helped" me knew far less about the hardware I wanted to buy (not to mention the other goodies in the store) than I did. AC's "value add" was that they were one of the next closest Ayre dealers to Dallas (I should have gone to Austin).
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The guy in Austin formerly worked at AC in Houston a long time ago. I hope he's still truckin.
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I totally disagree. I went with a friend to review speakers in the 4-10k range. We listened to at least 10 different sets of speakers in the same room with all the same gear, interconnects, speaker wire, etc. It was easy to select winners doing it that way. And there's really no other way to do this. I had someone over my house to listen to two different sets of speakers, but only two. The place I went to with my friend is long gone, so the days of listening to many different items are pretty much gone, unless you can go to one of these meetings.
Sure, I agree you can distinguish differences in a common setting but what I was trying to say is even if you find something to your liking at a dealer it may end up sounding totally "different" in your own personal listening space. Therefore the home demo becomes critical imo
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...........It is no one's "fault". It is just the way it is.
Great post CSI ( I quoted only a sliver), I totally agree. But to follow up on that sliver, the two B&M dealers I mentioned that have been able to keep their doors open have a very heavy internet presence with attractive, well designed web sites. This uses the very things you noted as liabilities to build on their strengths. You can order online nationally both new and used products at competitive prices, they have the 30 day home trial, but for locals it entices you to stop by the store which keeps the floor trade moving. I think this is pretty much the case for most of the successful B&Ms that I've seen, perhaps I'm wrong.