AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: MichaelHiFi on 23 Jan 2012, 11:52 pm
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Thought I'd share the experience of building a set of Super V's.
Suggestions and opinions are welcome. I'll post pics of the entire process or until folks get bored and I get banned from this site, whatever comes first :)
This is an early posting as I've only ordered the kit. That is:
The Super V flat pack
The Super V "kit" with the upgraded jupiter caps and N number of sheets of no rez.
Decisions need to be made.
What Color to paint and how to apply.
I have an auto body shop that's willing to paint my speakers at a price. I'm guessing $750.
I found a retailer however that can sell me some high quality paints for a fraction of that if I DIY.
I own a high quality DLP and an air compressor so I should put those tools to work. I've painted a number of cars in my life so I sort of know what I'm doing. Painting wood and cars differ in the type of piant one uses but the process is much the same.
I wish for a high quality gloss finish. I'm leaning towards deep blue or red. Something that stands out a bit but remains somewhere between elagent and high performance. Color suggestions are welcome.
I don't know if there are options for grill cloth color - I forgot to ask.
I'm also rethinking my room treatments. That's a slippery slope :roll:
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I like the idea of a deep blue. Or there's always British racing green... bespeaks class and performance.
You're building a pair of speakers that I long to hear, I really like the design. Pictures stat!
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Good move on the Super V. You'll have no regrets.
If you do the painting, the problem area with MDF is the exposed cross section at butt joints- it wants to show through the paint as time elapses. If you have a background in auto paint, you might consider a thin smear of Bondo across the joint to seal the end. Some paint the ends with watered down wood glue as a sealer, but Bondo is guaranteed to seal.
Scott
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Great choice, can't wait to see the build pics. I wish I had done my V1s in red and black but finishes were/are not my strong suit.
Best of luck with the build.
Ed
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Good point Clark. In fact, really good suggestion :idea: After the cabinet build, I'll need to take a good look at the seems.
I'll need to post some pics of the room. Lemme try that exercise again...
Nope :scratch: Guess this site don't like pics from Lightroom :scratch:
I need to find a successful way to post pics. But come to think of it, it loaded Jr :dunno:
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Good choice Michael!
I've always just uploaded photos from my hard drive - never a problem.
(and yes, you could use some room treatments - assuming same house/room as the GTG :icon_twisted:)
Did you decide on an amp yet?
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I've got on order a Decware Torii Mk III. Only 91 customers ahead of me :cry:
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Totally looking forward to seeing this.
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The flat pack is designed so that there are no visible seam lines.
The body of the Super-V can be painted a dark color pretty easily. You can do it yourself for sure. I did. Just a flat Black or dark Gray is a piece of cake. You can even use textured paints that are very forgiving.
The sides and bow-tie areas would look great in a high gloss of any color, and as you know this might be better done in a controlled spray both.
Post pics as you go. We all love to see pics.
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The flat pack is designed so that there are no visible seam lines.
Very clever! This should be a really easy build.
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I really loved the Super V in yellow. Don't know about real life, but in pics the super V looks best in sportscar colors, rather than being muted.
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I really loved the Super V in yellow. Don't know about real life, but in pics the super V looks best in sportscar colors, rather than being muted.
rclark you and Danny nailed it!
I agree Yellow!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56893)
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Here's a pic of the future home of the Super V's.
I wish to perform acoustical enhancements, more than the bass traps and acouctic panels I currently have.
Those fugly drapes gotta go. Note that the floor is tile and covered by an area rug. This shot is taken from the dining room area so this room opens to the dinig room, foyer and kitchen. To the left is a circular opening to a same size room with the TV and HT.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56911)
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Perhaps burnt orange and black would fit very well.
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Perhaps burnt orange and black would fit very well.
That would be kind of cool :roll:
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Flat pack showed up at the house. Wife told me the box has been crushed then taped shut. :evil:
She's supposed to send me a phone pic.
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To the left is a circular opening to a same size room with the TV and HT.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56911)
So the room is ported?
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56915)
This is how the flat pack showed up. The top is completely open with the cabinet parts hanging out.
:o
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So the room is ported?
:lol: Now that's funny Cheesyboy! What, you guys don't have ports in your room?
But WTF do these shipping company's do with our precious cargo?
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This is how the flat pack showed up. The top is completely open with the cabinet parts hanging out.
:o
Dang those UPS guys are tough on this stuff. I hope all looks good on the inside.
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Dang those UPS guys are tough on this stuff. I hope all looks good on the inside.
Oh, UPS. Unusually Poor Service.
Hope I didn't offend anyone but after we went through on a UPS claim from a busted Dynaudio...
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Just imagine if UPS was the only game in town.
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My experience with UPS et al is to pack it so that if it were dropped 3' onto a concrete floor multiple times from different angles and it survives it might make it in one piece.
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To be honest Bizarroter I think you might try 10'. Oh wait, that was my FedEx experience... :evil:
All is well. Only one piece got crunched and its fixable.
Wow, nice kit. How the hell do I put it together? :scratch:
I'll try to post pics but it seems AudioC doesn't play well with Lightroom.
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I think I e-mailed you some instructions. Let me know if you did not get them.
To be honest Bizarroter I think you might try 10'. Oh wait, that was my FedEx experience... :evil:
All is well. Only one piece got crunched and its fixable.
Wow, nice kit. How the hell do I put it together? :scratch:
I'll try to post pics but it seems AudioC doesn't play well with Lightroom.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56929)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56930)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=56931)
This is what we received :thumb:
Now we're thinking Vitamin C. That's the color of the Veloster in the background. if you look at the room these beauties are going in - the Southwest motif - it might look great :dunno:
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I think I e-mailed you some instructions. Let me know if you did not get them.
Don't see the instructions :dunno:
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Don't see the instructions :dunno:
Okay, shoot me over your e-mail address and I'll fire them right over to you.
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Many hands make for light work!
That's what I'm talkin about. Vitamin C and Pooh Bear Yellow combination. Or brown with Vitamin C. or leatherette the front cross members. Yippie yay yo Kayeh.
Is it GIK that does the pictures on the room treatments? A couple of Monument Valley scenes on your first reflection points and your set. Personnally I'd go for some Hopi Indian Kachina Dolls.
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Many hands make for light work!
That's what I'm talkin about. Vitamin C and Pooh Bear Yellow combination. Or brown with Vitamin C. or leatherette the front cross members. Yippie yay yo Kayeh.
Is it GIK that does the pictures on the room treatments? A couple of Monument Valley scenes on your first reflection points and your set. Personnally I'd go for some Hopi Indian Kachina Dolls.
If you look hard enough - middle picture, top right, you'll see white aspen I brought from Taos back in 98'. Still looking to incooperate that :oops:
What's GIK? I do the photo's. No glass is used because I don't like glass covering my shots :nono:.
You didn't see the Kachina's?
Vitamin C and leatherate crossmember. You might be on to something. I need to make a decision whether to perform the automotive style paint job myself, or send it to a shop. I'm unsure as to what type of primer to use. Especially if I go 2 stage vs a single stage enamel. I might give House Of Color a call to see if anyone there is in the know. I also need to determine what pieces go Vitamin C, what go black (or brown or leatherette)
Where are the grills?
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I think some of the grill frames are leaning on the dolley in the middle picture. If I'm not mistaken, you need to supply the grill cloth.
Ben
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I think some of the grill frames are leaning on the dolley in the middle picture. If I'm not mistaken, you need to supply the grill cloth.
Ben
:duh: Guess I really need those instructions!
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:duh: Guess I really need those instructions!
E-mailing them right now...
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I'm just beginning to build a set of A/V-1 mini monitors. I am jealous of your build. Sounds really exciting. Have fun and I bet they will look and sound phenomenal!
ben
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I need to make a decision whether to perform the automotive style paint job myself, or send it to a shop. I'm unsure as to what type of primer to use. Especially if I go 2 stage vs a single stage enamel. I might give House Of Color a call to see if anyone there is in the know. I also need to determine what pieces go Vitamin C, what go black (or brown or leatherette)
I've used high build urethane primer on MDF with good success. Something like this:
http://www.bodyshopsupplyms.com/page/2375_3&productID=5396&
or this:
http://www.tcpglobal.com/kustomshop/kspureprime.aspx
Topcoat with almost anything, base/clear will give best "piano" finish if that's what you're after.
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GIK Acoustics makes room treatments and is the circle here at Audio Circle right above GR Research. They would be able to take your original or some stock art work to cover acoustic treatments for your room. Here is the web site
http://www.gikacoustics.com/
I'm not affiliated with them. I'm just going to be doing my room soon. The art work panels would work for me.
I was just feeling the vibe from the room picture an came up with the same theme you already had in mind. How many people do you know that can identify a Kachina? I spent many years hiking all over Hopi and Navejo reservations. As long as you are building the speakers you could custom the room treatments to match. Some solid color treatments on the ceiling (you could DIY those), curtains on a larger track that cover the whole backwall (you can DIY Those too) and GIK art work type of first reflection treaments would look really good.
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I forgot. I'm a big fan of sealed rooms not ported. They could help you with the big foam plug for the port in your room.
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You mean to tell me folks here don't port their rooms :o
I think I'll try some of gikacoustics treatments - or those darn tuning cups.
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I just noticed you have a brick driveway. Nice!
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Another good one is ATS Acoustics.
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After a bit of research I've come to the conclusion that it's just not worth it to DIY spray auto paint. Us Californians, being the clean freaks that we are, :| and being controlled by the EPA, means that all automotive paint product is water based. According to people in the know, you have to know how to paint with water based automotive paints - and it's tricky. I tried ordering over the net but companys won't ship to California.
I'll need to decide which parts to assemble beforehand, before handing off to my body shop pro. Probably save me mucho time and headache.
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Sounds like leaving it to a pro is a good idea. I really excited about hearing the V1s
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We're hopeful Morgan gives us a chance to audition our future system :wink:
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We occasionally specify an auto paint finish on our corporate and hospitality interior design jobs. Usually it get cut by the VE axe and we go with a product from master coating technologies, whose brands include Scuffmaster, Zolatone, and MDC. We have had good luck with spray applications, and they are water-based products. Creslite and Chromatone may work for a super metallic look, but they may not be low VOC. The master painter institute has good list of eco friendly products. I am very jealous of your kit!!
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I'll look into that option, especially for the pieces I wish to paint black.
We received the Super V kit yesterday. :dance:
Incredibly, non of the boxes were destroyed. The only issue centered on one of the subs (haven't unpacked them all yet). The binding posts had come off and the associated parts were floating around the box. It looks like I'm short one little plastic thingy (grommet). You can see one of the remaining 3 on the table next to the sub. I'll perform one more search this morning.
I'm guessing the crossovers are built on one of the wooden parts :scratch: If you look closely, you'll see the jupiter caps. It's funny how little I know about these speakers. I wondered from all the pics I've seen, where the tweeters are located. On the reverse side of the sub, there's a driver. Looks like a mid, maybe a tweet, maybe a wide range driver. Guessing both as I don't see any tweeters in the kit.
I've always wanted to build my own speakers. I'm a big believer in quality signal transfer and the effects wire have over sound. I cannot afford the high dollar interconnects so I've built many a cable using some recipes from the web. I've got a pretty decent pack of Magic Link II's to compare my home brews with.
I know Danny uses some pretty good wire in his kit. At some point I wouldn't mind trying some gold over silver solid core with only a cotton sleeve. I found the wire in :duh: can't remember, need more coffee, small Asian country (tough getting old).
Dad is really excited to get rolling on this build. He bugged me all last evening to get started but with Jr, company and needing to cook dinner, and, a lot of music playing on my second system (Montrose, Shiny Toy Guns, Porcupine Tree, Pat Matheny, Al Dimeola, Annie Lennox, Sia, B-Tribe) I couldn't get going.
Off to pick up some screws and a countersink.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57069)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57070)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57071)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57072)
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We're hopeful Morgan gives us a chance to audition our future system :wink:
Try getting him out of the sweet spot
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Try getting him out of the sweet spot
He see's the camera, he's there.
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Looking at the pics of the Super V posted in this site, it looks as though the color (Vitamin C) or, Metallic copper, is best painted on the sides and the small central piece in the front between the baffles.
What say you?
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We're hopeful Morgan gives us a chance to audition our future system :wink:
Absolutely Michael. Let's make it happen soon.
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Got the Sub boxes built today
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57103)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57104)
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When I started and I was doing the statement monitors, which are decent sized, I was quoted $500 for a "new Mercedez" finish. Ymmv.
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When I started and I was doing the statement monitors, which are decent sized, I was quoted $500 for a "new Mercedez" finish. Ymmv.
That would be my guess for the cost of painting the 3 pieces in Copper. The rest of the parts I'll paint in satin black myself.
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The p-audio driver (blue basket) is a coax driver. There is a two inch tweeter in the back of it. The part you see is the back of the tweeter.
Also, the crossover should be attached to a separate piece of wood.
There is a sticky thread on this GR Research circle where Danny goes over a crossover build. It is for a V2, but it is a great step by step walkthrough. I am using it as a guide, and I know many others have too! http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83325.0
Ben
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Here are some Super-V crossover pics: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98348.msg990393#msg990393
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Here are some Super-V crossover pics: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98348.msg990393#msg990393
I was :scratch: what was meant by the crossover box. Now I know. So - so, that means I need a small piece of wood to mount the crossover assembly on then slide into the crossover box. Right?
The sub boxes came out perfect, until I brushed the primer on them. I used the Zinnser as was recommended by many. I can't get the "smoothness" back even after sanding with 100 grit using a palm sander. Now I need a second coat of primer (this time I'll roll it on). I'll be spraying most of the cabinetry with black satin using my Iwata LP400 HVLP gun. The sides and central cross-member, as I mentioned, will visit a automotive body shop for the copper color.
The kit is really fun to work with. Quality throughout. Oh ya, question for Danny if you're following this thread. In the package and in the instructions, there are 2 pieces of laminate for the upper sub enclosure. Since I'm painting the sub enclosures satin black, I'm assuming there's no need to glue those pieces on top of the upper boxes correct? It's a nice touch and thought for those that might want to go stain on their cabinets. Yes?
Thanks for the links guys, mucho helpful! :thumb:
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Wow Michael you are buzzing right along man! You' ll have them done in no time and you're gonna need an amp! Email or call me to come over for a listen.
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Wow Michael you are buzzing right along man! You' ll have them done in no time and you're gonna need an amp! Email or call me to come over for a listen.
I know, I've got one on order with a twelve week leadtime. I wish to buy the same amp used from a gentleman who pinged me but I can't get a hold of the owner of Decware to see if he's cool with that.
I've also been told that few preamps play well with the amp so I'm anxious to see if my Allnic will have synergy with the Decware.
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In the package and in the instructions, there are 2 pieces of laminate for the upper sub enclosure. Since I'm painting the sub enclosures satin black, I'm assuming there's no need to glue those pieces on top of the upper boxes correct?
When you assemble the whole thing, the only place any seams are visible is right on top. So the piece of veneer hides the seams. Even if you are painting it, you'll want to use the veneer.
And I'd completely a assemble the sub section before paining it. Nothing wrong with using a slightly textured paint either. It looks good and saves hours of sanding time.
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When you assemble the whole thing, the only place any seams are visible is right on top. So the piece of veneer hides the seams. Even if you are painting it, you'll want to use the veneer.
And I'd completely a assemble the sub section before paining it. Nothing wrong with using a slightly textured paint either. It looks good and saves hours of sanding time.
No doubt I'm performing more work than needed. I wanted to seal all bare wood area's before assembling. Just thought that would be good practice. I'm also hopeful for a perfectly smooth satin finish. I want the back side finish to look as nice at the front. But this priming is going to kill me. :duh:
(http://)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57193)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57194)
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So I need to cut a piece of wood (2)that slides into the xover enclosure to build the xover on?
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So I need to cut a piece of wood (2)that slides into the xover enclosure to build the xover on?
Yep.
Layout the parts per the picture posted and twist them all together. Then mark the spot for the through holes that you'll need for the zip ties... It will be easier than you think.
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The side panels and the cross brace are in the paint shop. The remaining pieces are a primer white. There's a lot of sanding to perform.
I choose a metallic copper from about a hundred samples. It's just impossible to know how it will look. That and the shop has never painted wood in automotive paint before :o
Now I'm researching non resonant material to mount the cross overs on. I'm looking to remove every bit of vibration I can that can reach the caps and coils. Otherwise, I use my bags of sand trick :)
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No doubt I'm performing more work than needed. I wanted to seal all bare wood area's before assembling. Just thought that would be good practice. I'm also hopeful for a perfectly smooth satin finish. I want the back side finish to look as nice at the front. But this priming is going to kill me. :duh:
Sounds like the primer is giving you fits. I'm wondering if it could be the primer you're using. You'd want primer to sand easily and do what's called powdering when sanding. IME good sanding qualities are almost always exclusive to solvent or oil base products.
Is the primer in the pic what you're using? I tried to find on Zinsser site, but either it goes by some other name or I'm just not seeing it. What do they reccomend for cleanup?
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Zinsser is a water based primer.
http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=217
It seemed to get great reviews from folks who tested primers. What I found is that it tending to "build or clog" on my sandpaper. It may be due to not really allowing enough drying time, although it seems to dry insanely fast. When using a brush, which I did, the brush strokes seem to remain even after using 100 grit on a palm sander. As Danny mentioned, using a course finish paint will alleviate these issues, but I'm hopeful for a really smooth satin black finish. I'm giving my second coat of primer many days to set. I'll see how sanding goes tonight if I have time.
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Zinsser is a water based primer.
http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=217
It seemed to get great reviews from folks who tested primers. What I found is that it tending to "build or clog" on my sandpaper. It may be due to not really allowing enough drying time, although it seems to dry insanely fast. When using a brush, which I did, the brush strokes seem to remain even after using 100 grit on a palm sander. As Danny mentioned, using a course finish paint will alleviate these issues, but I'm hopeful for a really smooth satin black finish. I'm giving my second coat of primer many days to set. I'll see how sanding goes tonight if I have time.
Thanks for the link...it's acrylic. Acrylic tends to form a "skin" and stays kind rubbery...hence your problems. Primers that are readily sandable will say so.
I doubt if you can switch gears at this point, but if starting from scratch I'd reccommend, in Zinsser products, either Cover Stain oil base (they also make a water base, IIRC) or B.I.N. which is pigmented shellac. Cover Stain will take a day or three to get sandable, BIN is much quicker, but stinks. They make BIN in spray cans or you could spray with your Iwata. You'll need denatured alcohol to clean up.
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Thanks for the link...it's acrylic. Acrylic tends to form a "skin" and stays kind rubbery...hence your problems. Primers that are readily sandable will say so.
I doubt if you can switch gears at this point, but if starting from scratch I'd reccommend, in Zinsser products, either Cover Stain oil base (they also make a water base, IIRC) or B.I.N. which is pigmented shellac. Cover Stain will take a day or three to get sandable, BIN is much quicker, but stinks. They make BIN in spray cans or you could spray with your Iwata. You'll need denatured alcohol to clean up.
I screwed up. :duh:
You're right on all points. This funny is not easy to sand. I wonder now if I can follow with a different product, but same product line? Or I can sand off the majority of primer and start over which sucks.
I found some pieces of phenolic here at work. I ordered some sorbothane isolation washers for the crossovers so I'm ready to build them up.
I've been thinking about the cross-over cabinets. They might look great colored the same as the sides and cross brace. :dunno:
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I've been thinking about the cross-over cabinets. They might look great colored the same as the sides and cross brace. :dunno:
Santi did that in a great way.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=3999
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Update;
Sanding sanding and more sanding. I'm using an enamel primer now. I have rethought the satin black fish. What I'll try to do is paint the pedestals and x-over cabinets satin black. The rest of the pieces a more textured black.
I have an amp on the way :o Having purchased a used Decware Torii Mk III with a compliment of 28 tubes, I'm excited and anxious to get the build finished. But no problem really as I've got the Decade's to try through the Decware. Wait, Decade - Decware a synergy perhaps :wink:
With the amp on the way I need to rethink my room and setup. The Decware is single ended. I was using balanced to my Pass. Now I need to reconfigure my reference home made cables to single ended use which means I need to purchase connectors.
My JL Audio Fathom (pictured on right) is no longer needed and is going for sale. I've tried to find an excuse to keep her but I couldn't convince my wife that we could use it in our HT setup. The Def Techs have built-in subs. She knows too much :lol:
In the corners of the rooms are bass traps andtowrads the middle of the back wall are acoustic panels (behind the drapes). The drapes are leaving to get replaced by....drapes. I have a bass trap along the wall in front of the JL and probably does nothing for room acoustices. I have another with no place to go.
Any suggestions?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57465)
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I'm laying out the cross over and using the pic from the V2 (cross over 101) to help guide me. Of course I have the Super V network with Jupiter cap diagram to wire by.
First problem. :cry: No doubt the wiring is different than the V2. But I do show 5ea inductors in the signal paths.
On to painting - gingerly.
Progress is slow due to illness. It appears my little one has given me hand, foot and mouth disease. Rare for adults so lucky me. This virus is brutal :evil: Feels like someone took a hammer to every one of my fingers, including the nails then added about 50ea blisters per. Ditto for feet! :bawl:
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Sorry to hear that you have child related Hoof N Mouth disease. Toddlers tend to share everything with thier parents.
I don't know if you will still need the Sub in this application. I'd like to hear the V1's with out it in the room. I'm still on the fence with a sub for my LS6 for 2 channel.
I would still go for a longer curtain rod and cover the front wall completly left to right. I would extend the curtain rod out enough so it doesn't show any bump or rumple from the corner bass traps. I would put a piece of Owens Corning 703 behind the curtain and behind each speaker. It looks like you have something there already.
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Michael - there are a couple of threads a few pages back where there are some good photos of the Super V crossovers with Jupiter caps.
Couldn't find the one I was looking for, but if you read through this one and look at the pictures on page 2, it might help.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=100135.0
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Michael - there are a couple of threads a few pages back where there are some good photos of the Super V crossovers with Jupiter caps.
Couldn't find the one I was looking for, but if you read through this one and look at the pictures on page 2, it might help.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=100135.0
Thanks SoCalWJS,
That might help. I was hopeful for a complete finished pic for the Super V. I've got mine laid out similarly as the V1 but I know it's not right. I thought I saw that pic too somewhere but I mist be confusing pics of other networks.
Still sanding - still painting. I used a textured black as a finish coat but don't like it. It's not even, it's rough, it'll catch every dust particle and you couldn't clean it. Just sprayed some matt clear on a textured piece just for giggles. :scratch:
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That might help. I was hopeful for a complete finished pic for the Super V. I've got mine laid out similarly as the V1 but I know it's not right. I thought I saw that pic too somewhere but I mist be confusing pics of other networks.
In reply number 53 of this thread I posted a link to pics of completed crossovers for you.
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I can't wait to hear these. I'll get the pizza this time.
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In reply number 53 of this thread I posted a link to pics of completed crossovers for you.
Yes, thanks Danny, and it's the pic I'm looking at but I'm really working from your layout you sent me with the kit. I won't post the layout but maybe it's a spacial problem in the pic that is confusing me.
It the pic, it looks like the big inductor 3.6mH is bottom right. It can't be though according to your diagram. That big inductor should never see the Jupiter cap and it shouldn't be in the woofer circuit anyway. So me thinks that the 3.6 is standing tall at the back facing us. It just looks small in the pic :scratch:
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Super V pieces strewn about the garage in various stages of getting their paint. I've settled on a textured black following by a clear gloss enamel. I'm working on a technique to get the texture to lay evenly. I think a final "mist" coat with the texture following by a few coats of clear gloss might work well.
Last night I had an idea. That cross brace that's in the body shop along with the side panels might see a different color. The side panels are going a deep metallic copper. It might look cool to have that cross piece a deep metallic red. They get their color today. It's not too late. Bad idea? :dunno:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57618)
I like this layout.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57620)
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You are making this look easy!
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My vote would be for the all Copper look.
When you lay out the crossover parts go ahead and twist the parts together to make sure they all reach each other without having to insert any pieces of wire.
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I'll second that. The red really doesn't work for me. Tooled leather might.
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Micheal I also went with a textured look on my baffles, it was a lot of trial and error till I found the look I wanted. I also ended with a gloss coat over....well lets just say its a custom finish... :D
I have been very happy with the finish on the baffles....over the last few yrs it has stood up better than I expected.......pure luck on my part.
I think the copper will look fantastic on the black....good luck!
Happy building.
Perry
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Micheal I also went with a textured look on my baffles, it was a lot of trial and error till I found the look I wanted. I also ended with a gloss coat over....well lets just say its a custom finish... :D
I have been very happy with the finish on the baffles....over the last few yrs it has stood up better than I expected.......pure luck on my part.
I think the copper will look fantastic on the black....good luck!
Happy building.
Perry
Thanks Perry, glad I'm not the pioneer here. :)
Got my Decware amp last night. Took a long time to get it to sing. I have no central image but great tonality. My speakers danced more around the floor than John Travolta in the mid seventies. I moved furniture, traps, you name it but no singer in the middle. Music wasn't confined to the speakers however and sounded lovely. Would like to get the room right before the Super V's move in. The Decades really like tubes.
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Thanks Perry, glad I'm not the pioneer here. :)
Got my Decware amp last night. Took a long time to get it to sing. I have no central image but great tonality. My speakers danced more around the floor than John Travolta in the mid seventies. I moved furniture, traps, you name it but no singer in the middle. Music wasn't confined to the speakers however and sounded lovely. Would like to get the room right before the Super V's move in. The Decades really like tubes.
Hi Michael and all Audio Circle members.
I own a pair of GR V1 and a Decware SE84C+ (2wpc) amplifier and the combo sounds good, however, the room acoustic was terrible, the room was very large and with only 2 wpc, I am lacking some punch and dynamics...
All my audio stuff is packed (In Vietnam) and will go back home (Canada) with me next month.
I also drove the V1 with my Niteshade Audio (10wpc) and the dynamics increase a lot.
Even if the V1 are 95db+ sensitive, you need more than 2 wpc for get the best of the V1 in a medium or large room.
I also own a pair of V2 which are a litttle less sensitive, but I drive them with my 10wpc Niteshade Audio.
Very happy with all Danny`s stuff.
Guy 13
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Guy 13,
Michael got the Decware Torii so it will have 25 W, instead of the 2W you were thinking.
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Yes, thanks Danny, and it's the pic I'm looking at but I'm really working from your layout you sent me with the kit. I won't post the layout but maybe it's a spacial problem in the pic that is confusing me.
It the pic, it looks like the big inductor 3.6mH is bottom right. It can't be though according to your diagram. That big inductor should never see the Jupiter cap and it shouldn't be in the woofer circuit anyway. So me thinks that the 3.6 is standing tall at the back facing us. It just looks small in the pic :scratch:
The wiring diagram and the pic of the assembled crossover may not look at all the same. The diagram just shows the way it has to be connected and NOT the layout of the parts. Parts can be layed out completely different than the wiring diagram as far as placement. But they have to be connected as per the diagram.
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Updates: 8)
Progress made on the networks. See the last pic as a gut check as the wiring is coming together.
Side panels are getting color sanded. I continue to paint the rest.
After the layout, I marked the holes and drilled
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57851)
Now I glue the pieces down with a hot glue gun.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57852)
Next, tie wrap the parts!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57853)
OK, now we trim and here we are
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57854)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57855)
Getting towards finishing the wiring on the first card. This look right ? :scratch:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=57856)
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When I started laying out crossovers for an a/v 1 I almost forgot heat shrink where OFC wire connections are made!
:duh:
Ben
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I picked up my side panels. What do you think?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58113)
I also received my sorbothane washers. These go between the crossover and the cabinet.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58114)
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Wow! :o I love it!
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:o
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooo those are sweet! :notworthy: :rock: :bounce:
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Wow!
Those look fantastic :thumb:
Are you getting close to final assembly?
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They came out looking very nice. They match the room better that I could have imagined considering I picked the color at the body shop from a ring of color samples. Now we're scratching :scratch: about the color of material for the speaker grills. It doesn't have to be black does it :roll:
Current thinking is to begin assembly on Saturday. I'm nearly finished with the paint job of the rest of the parts. That's a lot of painting! Sanding and painting - sanding and painting - sanding and painting. The initial primer coat was a huge set back :evil:
Between coats we've been playing the Tyler Decades using the new to us Decware Torii amp. Sounding really good! I know the networks in the Tylers need some work and there's an issue with the bass control setting and its interaction with the Tylers, but regardless, plenty of deep bass, a sweet midrange and nice highs have kept us in the audio room. My wife still complains about not enough of the goosebump factor as she heard with the LS6, Pass amp and Cary preamp combo. :?
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I picked up my side panels. What do you think?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58113)
I also received my sorbothane washers. These go between the crossover and the cabinet.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58114)
I love the color. Great job.
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Hope it goes well with the assembly this weekend and it all comes together. I think that you'll get some of the "goosebumps" back. :green:
Which Decades do you have? Not familiar with any of their speakers.
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Thanks SoCal. I've got the Decade D1's. Really nice speakers with these tubes. According to Danny, who designed the x-overs, work needs to be done to improve what's already very good.
But I've got the Super V's to build. I'll start assembling the cabinets tomorrow.
My cartridge is supposed to show up any day now from being repaired. I need something to set it up on. I changed configuration of my stereo gear keeping Jr's fingers from tube rolling ... :lol: and changing needles on the cartridge... :evil:
But now I need a stand with a lockable drawer to hide my arm!
Wife is correct. If you're not feeling the goosebumps constantly when playing your favorite music, your system is broken.
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Wife is correct. If you're not feeling the goosebumps constantly when playing your favorite music, your system is broken.
[/quote]
i like the quote above and shall tell my wife that !
hi MichaelHiFi,
Very nice workmanship !
enjoy the pictures .
kp93300
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:thumb: Those are going to look great!
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My amp went up in smoke. Literally. The whole house smells like a transformer :bawl:
Now I have more time to spend building the Super V's.
Now I have no amp to play them with, probably for a long time so what's the hurry? :scratch:
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My wife and I are good partners. We always find something positive out of crap that goes horribly wrong. For instance. Looking at the what was the pristine white base of our tube amplifier, now turned an interesting dark yellow from one of the transformers radiating outwards turning white again at the fringes "hey, why don't we paint that mess of an amp bass plate the color of our speaker panels" :lol: :lol: :lol:
:bawl: :bawl: :bawl:
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Ah man, was that the new Decware amp?
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Well it was a used Decware amp. I have a new one on order with a very long lead time.
Now we're wondering if the lifetime warranty is good on this amp given the fact that I bought it used? It looks like the transformer simply shorted one of it's windings (pure speculation - I'm no electronic engineer). I doubt that the fuse is even blown. I honestly think that just shutting it down via the power switches didn't stop the burning but rather I needed to unplug the unit from its AC. Too stunned to know. It's a pure dual mono so who knows, the right channel may still work. :roll:
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Sorry to hear about the amp. You were knockin it down so quickly. Setbacks suck.
The side panel colors turned out great. I was thinking about the grill covers alot and I'm at a loss to suggest anything other than perhaps a maroon color. However I don't know how that would fit with the southwestern flavor in the room. I'm just unsure. You could take the smaller cross member to the local fabric store with you.
The first cut played on the LS6 at home I put Adre Bocelli "The Prayer" on the LS6's. Helen got goosebumps. Goosebumps are our measure of listening enjpoyment. Dannys designs have never failed to deliver. First it was the Rockets. Now the LS.
Keep up the good work
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Glad you're getting the goosebump factor Cheeseboy. Keep up the good synergy. We'll get there.
Update with a few pics. I had to paint the other side of the base panels as I had painted the side no one could see. Oops. (forgot their name - getting old in the brain).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58317)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58318)
Providing more painting isn't needed - and I know I'll need more painting, we should be well on our way towards wiring.
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Any news on the Decware Michael?
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Any news on the Decware Michael?
Shipped out today, I hope. Fedex system was down. :banghead: So much good luck :?
Steve will repair and ship back, so I may not be down for months like I feared.
How's your system singing?
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Wanting to get these Super V's built I don't want to rush the paint job. I'm not real happy with my textured black with gloss clear look. Being at the point where I secure the side panels, there would be no going back. I'm thinking that a pebble texture with a flat black finish might look more elegant that the current. :dunno:
Am I crazy?
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Nope, not crazy. Actually, very good on you for taking your time to make sure everything comes out "right".
The pebble/flat finish will probably make the gloss color sides "pop" more (the middle of the speaker won't be fighting for attention itself. Tough call with the textured finish already in place. Any chance of shooting some flat/semi gloss over the existing texture to get a feel for how it might come out without a lot of extra time invested?
In any case, no matter what you choose, if you aren't 100% happy with the black as-is, definitely go for something different while you still have the opportunity. It will take a little longer to get the speakers put together, but compare that time to the time you will spend looking at the otherwise finished product knowing that you are unhappy with it and could have done something different about it.
Just my $.02. :)
(and because I haven't posted in this thread yet) the orange is just sick! I had a car almost the same color a few years ago. . . the color really grew on me, and I still wish I could have got the one I'm currently running in the same color, but it was discontinued for that model year. . .
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Thanks Jonathon, I think you helped push me over the edge to experiment with a different finish. Given the fact that I have no amplifier, at for a few weeks anyway, I might as well get this build as perfect as possible.
The copper looks really nice is our audio room as the motif is southwestern Indian meets industrial audio - a strange combination. I swear when the amps transformer was burning, I saw smoke signals rising. :o I'm hopeful the pebble spray can finish finishes nicely.
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except that I cannot find such a finish... :(
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Not sure how far you're willing to go, but here's some ideas that may help
http://3mcollision.com/products/coatings/3m-rocker-schutz-coating-08874.html
http://3mcollision.com/3m-no-cleanup-rocker-gard-coating-08949.html
http://3mcollision.com/products/coatings/3m-no-cleanup-waterbased-undercoating-08804.html
I have a shutz gun I'd loan you, but it's pretty heavy texture, I have shot auto speaker boxes with it and then sanded flat and painted. Looks kinda like a finer version of knock down texture on drywall.
Or there's this stuff
http://store.acrytech.com/Speaker-Cabinet-Coatings/
Truck bed liner might work too and I think it's similar to the above...I'll keep thinkin' on it.
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Hi Michael,
Could you try anthracite gray (RAL 7016) instead pure black? This is how I softened
P.Audio's 'striking blue' frames on my V2's :D. And copper sides would perfectly fit combination.
Greetings from Europe,
George
:beer:
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When I built my baffles I tried a textured stone coat finish, it was a grey. I didnt like the color, but liked the texture. I simply painted it black
This is the stuff: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/stone-creations-mineral-brown/980166
It has stood up really well over the last few yrs. You can see the finish in my gallery.
It is almost fool proof in achieving a even texture.
I tried panel/rocker guard finishes on other speakers, I wasnt fond of it.
Perry
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nik.d welcome to AC.
Hey Micheal,
Walmart sells some truck bed liner spray that is actually a light texture. It covers well too. I used it to paint the newly modified back cups on your tweeters. See what you think of that.
I also used it for the Black areas of these. See pics: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98348.msg988604#msg988604
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nik.d welcome to AC.
Hey Micheal,
Walmart sells some truck bed liner spray that is actually a light texture. It covers well too. I used it to paint the newly modified back cups on your tweeters. See what you think of that.
I also used it for the Black areas of these. See pics: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98348.msg988604#msg988604
I'd like to check that out. What tweeters? The tweeters built-in to the back of woofers because those are the only tweeters I received in the kit? Those are the largest tweeter cones I've ever seen.
I'll run out to the garage and check it out.
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Not sure how far you're willing to go, but here's some ideas that may help
http://3mcollision.com/products/coatings/3m-rocker-schutz-coating-08874.html
http://3mcollision.com/3m-no-cleanup-rocker-gard-coating-08949.html
http://3mcollision.com/products/coatings/3m-no-cleanup-waterbased-undercoating-08804.html
I have a shutz gun I'd loan you, but it's pretty heavy texture, I have shot auto speaker boxes with it and then sanded flat and painted. Looks kinda like a finer version of knock down texture on drywall.
Or there's this stuff
http://store.acrytech.com/Speaker-Cabinet-Coatings/
Truck bed liner might work too and I think it's similar to the above...I'll keep thinkin' on it.
Good suggestions. Thanks for the info and the links! That would keep with my automotive theme :lol:
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When I built my baffles I tried a textured stone coat finish, it was a grey. I didnt like the color, but liked the texture. I simply painted it black
This is the stuff: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/stone-creations-mineral-brown/980166
It has stood up really well over the last few yrs. You can see the finish in my gallery.
It is almost fool proof in achieving a even texture.
I tried panel/rocker guard finishes on other speakers, I wasnt fond of it.
Perry
I was looking at that paint. I ended up buying this;
http://www.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-223525-Multi-Color-Textured-12-Ounce/dp/B000N3C6EM (http://www.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-223525-Multi-Color-Textured-12-Ounce/dp/B000N3C6EM)
I'm scared to use it due to the tiny white dots in the texture but now when I look at the paint jobs from the earlier posts, it might work well.
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Hi Michael,
Could you try anthracite gray (RAL 7016) instead pure black? This is how I softened
P.Audio's 'striking blue' frames on my V2's :D. And copper sides would perfectly fit combination.
Greetings from Europe,
George
:beer:
That's a thought too as I'm may not use a black grill cloth. Thanks for the suggestion.
Greetings from America.
Now I'm really confused! :lol:
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At 20 months I'm pretty sure Michael Jr is the youngest speaker builder in this entire forum.
:thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58473)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58474)
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I'd like to check that out. What tweeters? The tweeters built-in to the back of woofers because those are the only tweeters I received in the kit? Those are the largest tweeter cones I've ever seen.
Yes, the tweeters on the P-Audio coaxial driver.
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/SV4.jpg)
The center of the housing has been milled out and repainted Black. That Black comes from this can:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Rust-Oleum-Auto-Truck-Bed-Coating-Aerosol/16652310
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This is the look of the textured multi color black. I know, dumb name.
Wife likes it.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58497)
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Then that is all that matters! Looks good to me.
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Help - Drivers Wanted. :lol:
Now I'm ready to load the drivers. Decided to perform this function in the living room because once the drivers are loaded, I may not be able to get these speakers in the living room!
On the bow ties, I noted that the paint did not fair well due to the roughness of the surface. Need to find a way to fix that slight miscue. It's worse on the one that's shown.
In the background in an Onix SP3 that Scott so graciously loaned us until our Decware returns. Thanks again Scott!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58726)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58727)
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Those are coming along nicely. Can't wait to see them completed.
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Wow those are beautiful. Great choice of colors! :thumb:
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Love the color, very cool!
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man, those are great... I am coveting :D :D
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Wow, those are much, much smaller than your current speakers.
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That automotive paint job looks ridiculously good. for my next pair of DIY speakers i want to get an automotive paint job, maybe a 3 cu ft box sealed... how much was it just for those panels if you dont mind me asking?
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That automotive paint job looks ridiculously good. for my next pair of DIY speakers i want to get an automotive paint job, maybe a 3 cu ft box sealed... how much was it just for those panels if you dont mind me asking?
It was $400 bucks. I might have done it myself with my Iwata L400 HVLP gun but now in California, we can only use water based paints and that's a whole new painting game I'm not participating in. Besides, I would have easily $250 in paint supplies alone! Fogetaboutit :nono:
They look better in person I think. I got half the drivers loaded in the cabinets tonight. The lower servo woofers don't have predrilled holes in the baffle that I noticed. Those are going to be painful to install.
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It was $400 bucks. I might have done it myself with my Iwata L400 HVLP gun but now in California, we can only use water based paints and that's a whole new painting game I'm not participating in. Besides, I would have easily $250 in paint supplies alone! Fogetaboutit :nono:
They look better in person I think. I got half the drivers loaded in the cabinets tonight. The lower servo woofers don't have predrilled holes in the baffle that I noticed. Those are going to be painful to install.
Hi Michael and all Audio Circle members.
On my V1 and also on my V2,
I did not have any pre-drilled guide holes and
I had more than my share of aggravation trying
to scew in the screws.
Next time, Ruben will do enclosures for me, he's the one that will struggle with the screws if he forget the guide holes.
Guy 13
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Michael,
Those look fabulous! Excellent work and excellent color. Can't wait to read your full review!
Have a super day,
Ken
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I'm diggin those speakers! I like the acousticaly transparent Navajo Blankets on the corner bass traps. Very nice touch. The new maroon heavy drapes are lookin good as well. That will be the best sounding room south of the San Mateo bridge. Noooooo Doubt abooudit.
The young craftsman in the house really did a great job!
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The drivers are installed. It wasn't that bad installing the bottom drivers. We set the speakers face down, dropped in the woofers, marked the holes, drilled with my right angled drill, (you need a right angle drill!), dropped the woofer back in, used a bit in the right angle drill, installed the screws, finish by hand with a phillips - done.
Wife is getting really excited :banana piano: Wait till I clean them up :D
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58840)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58841)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58842)
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Michael,
Build looks great, can't wait for your report on how it sounds... I was wondering if you could tell me how many pieces make up the "box" that I circled in the picture.
I think it is a top and two sides but the rounds make it look one piece (probably just good assembly skills here).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58843)
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It's getting close now! They look fantastic Michael!
You should have new speakers for the weekend! :banana piano:
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Looking good Michael did you get the plate amps yet.
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Michael, those look awesome!
Hey vettett15, how did you come up with that screen name. Are you a Vette owner?
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Vettett15 - those cross-over boxes came that way, no assembly required. You do have to cut a board to mount the cross-over components on the board to fit inside that cabinet. I errored in that regard and have to trim my plates darn-it.
It's going to be an interesting report. Consider this.
My wife and critically listened to many hundreds of systems. Few we really liked. What we were hearing tonight, slaving our minds to the compromises - if you will - in equipment, that is, cross-overs that are compromised and wires not fully realized, yikes.
Listening to Sade "Soldiers Of Love" through the Tyler Decades fed by a Allnic L3000, Onix SP3 with an Oppo BDP95 source taking data from a hard drive it was really good. The bass wasn't good at all, but it was playing, I mean singing. If I were to have walked into a room, say at CES, or Rocky Mountain, I would have really liked this setup! Maybe the mere presence of the Super V's have something to do with this? :lol:
Those Decade D1's really like tubes. Danny seems to have designed a ruler flat response into the Decades that makes them play ruler flat when mated with highly accurate solid state amps. These speakers have now seen no less than 6 amps, 3 tube and 3 SS. All 3 tube killed all 3 SS amps.
The plate amps are on there way, March 6th is the date. I should have these speakers fully assembled or rather, wired this weekend waiting for those amps.
I'll need some burn-in time then I'll need some golden ears to assess what these speakers are all about.
Any volunteers?
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Danny, I started using that name a long time ago when I was in love with the Lingenfelter Twin Turbo vette. Closest I came was a 98 Trans am with heads/cam/intake/exhaust/etc putting 440 at the wheels.
Michael, thanks for the info. I'd be going crazy waiting on those plate amps, i'm sure it will be worth it.
Can you give us any insight into other "top" systems you have listened to? It would be interesting to know what your reference is (sorry if you already stated this and i missed it).
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Danny, I started using that name a long time ago when I was in love with the Lingenfelter Twin Turbo vette. Closest I came was a 98 Trans am with heads/cam/intake/exhaust/etc putting 440 at the wheels.
Sounds like we have another common interest.
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You mean just how we prefer our bass we prefer our cars (fast and tight of course).... I'm sorry I sold that car but i've moved onto a 370z which i'm in love with. Tried my hand at the strip a couple times all I do is spin... Much harder than it looks.
Where is the next show that the Super V's are going to be shown at?
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Where is the next show that the Super V's are going to be shown at?
I think the next show will be at Michael's house as soon as his speakers have burned in. :D
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Danny, I started using that name a long time ago when I was in love with the Lingenfelter Twin Turbo vette. Closest I came was a 98 Trans am with heads/cam/intake/exhaust/etc putting 440 at the wheels.
Michael, thanks for the info. I'd be going crazy waiting on those plate amps, I'm sure it will be worth it.
Can you give us any insight into other "top" systems you have listened to? It would be interesting to know what your reference is (sorry if you already stated this and i missed it).
Top systems? I've listened to so many systems good and bad. I can put my finger on a few that we're memorable.
I was in a room with a pair of Wilson Sasha 2's that were driven by a pair of Macintosh MC500 mono's fed by a Esoteric CD player. It was setup very well. The band was in the room. I poured the drinks afterwards. That was a great sounding combo I thought.
I really liked the Nola Grand Reference driven by PrimaLuna Dialogue 7's. Great synergy there. Very high dollar speaker though. I am/was a big fan of Vandersteen but couldn't afford even a used 5A.
One of the best setups I've heard was in my own room just after I sold my LS6's. :duh:
The buyer left them with me for some weeks and while they were there they played against a pair of Dynaudio Confidence C1's I'd just bought as a replacement.
The LS6's were great but had a top end that was often over the top. I tried everything I thought to fix it including blocking out some of the tweeters! It was then that I purchased a PS Audio Power Plant Premier. When that was deployed and my source units plugged in the issue we had with the LS6's was gone. Our THD which was at 4.5% at the wall dropped to .5%. I could only surmise that this 4.5% distortion X 12 Neo8 tweeters firing at you was too much to overcome in the HF region. Now the LS6's were in true goosebump territory. There were mesmerizing. Having a Pass Labs X350.5 didn't hurt either as they played extremely well together. In a well treated room with great AC and good electronics, it's hard to beat a line array.
I was in the market for LS9's when I learned of the Super V. I have never listened to a Super V. It will be an interesting experience.
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Oh that sucks, at least you found the problem. How did the C1's compare with the LS6s? Do you still have the C1's now?
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The C1 burned. Cost a fortune to fix. Of course they blamed it on my crappy amp, the Pass X350.5... They sounded OK but just couldn't scale anywhere near the LS6's. Sold them. Dynaudio was an not a good company to work with IMHO. Moved on to MBL. Great speaker, huge sweet spot. Didn't integrate well with a sub. Needed 2 subs or 3 :scratch:. We had the little guys, the 121's.
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I think the next show will be at Michael's house as soon as his speakers have burned in. :D
I think so too. I learned about two life changing technologies the last time I visited Michael and his family. Line Source speakers and the Wine Venturi. I hope this next visit is as good.
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That is a super nice looking pair of speakers!!!!
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It was $400 bucks. I might have done it myself with my Iwata L400 HVLP gun but now in California, we can only use water based paints and that's a whole new painting game I'm not participating in. Besides, I would have easily $250 in paint supplies alone! Fogetaboutit :nono:
They look better in person I think. I got half the drivers loaded in the cabinets tonight. The lower servo woofers don't have predrilled holes in the baffle that I noticed. Those are going to be painful to install.
Thats reasonable for the quality of work, they probably did a lot of prep work as well
The color sort of looks like your velostars color :green:
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I think so too. I learned about two life changing technologies the last time I visited Michael and his family. Line Source speakers and the Wine Venturi. I hope this next visit is as good.
Let's see, what other life changing technologies I can spring on you :scratch:
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Let's see, what other life changing technologies can I spring on you :scratch:
Super V's? :green: :green: :green:
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Those little bow ties that adorn the front of the Super V. They have a recessed screw hole on one side, the wrong side IMO. The face of the baffle has holes in it that match the holes in the bow tie in the appropriate place. At first I thought that I would screw the bow ties into the baffle and the screws simply show. But in the pics there are no screws showing. Then noting that the curvature of the bow tie face's those recessed holes towards the baffle has me baffled. Then I thought maybe the little "leftover" dowels fit into the supposed screw holes and that's how the bow ties attach - but they don't fit.
I could just find a appropriate size nail, cut the head off, measure a length and glue them on, but that isn't close to how logically and precisely everything else fit in the kit.
This isn't rocket science (like the cross-over wiring). What am I missing (besides a brain)?
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Are they holes for neodymium magnet to hold on a cloth cover?
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Are they holes for neodymium magnet to hold on a cloth cover?
No, they match the location and placement of the bowties perfectly.
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Hey there should be some little metal pins that are used to align and hold the bow-tie in place. I used them to align mine and glued the bow-tie's on.
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Yup! Super V's!
Possibly the Alliniac (spell check here) Pre Amp as well.
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Yep, I see it coming. Another decision. :scratch:
The Super V kit came with these Electra Interconnect connectors. It replaces the standard blade type connectors on almost all speaker cables. In theory, these "Electra's" sound like a good idea. Problem is, this would mean to me that I take my pretty expensive Synergistic Research Tesla speaker cables and cut the lugs off them making them pretty much worthless in the possible "I want to sell these" marketplace.
What to do - what to do :scratch: :scratch:
I think the cross-overs are built. Waiting for a confirmation of that from Danny, he's got the pics. I want to connectorize it but that is based upon my Electra decision, or change cable type - yikes.
Still deciding on grill cloth.
Oh ya, no pins for the bow-ties - bummer. Shouldn't be difficult to find a substitute.
Plate amps are to show up at my house today. Am I really going to build enclosures for those? :duh:
My turntable is working - sort of - again. I'm missing my tracking force gauge. I mean it's missing as in gone. I placed an order for a digital one which I wanted anyway.
My Decware amp is at Decware but the owner has family health issues. Bummer for him. I may not be seeing that amp for a while. Where's Steve, the gentleman who loaned me his amp? Good guy audiophile of the year award is waiting :lol:
Cheeseboy
The preamp is an Allnic which stands for All Nickel which is used in their transformers. 5 things I love about this preamp.
1. It's tube based but you don't feel inclined to roll tubes.
2. There are meters in front to let you know if a tube is failing.
3. Tubes last and last and there not crazy expensive!
4. It doesn't seem to add any coloration to the sound, only an increased sense of scale a very mild increase in dynamics and increased air, to a more or less degree depending upon amp.
5. Nice volume control and remote
6. It's beautiful to look at and touch.
7. The head guy David Beetles will occasionally call me and see how things are working. That's right, call me.
Oops that's 7.
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Michael - it's all about options/tradeoff's/decisions, isn't it? :green:
Must be nice having the head guy at a company giving you a call.
Have you thought about trying the Electras with a different set of speaker cables, then comparing? I bought most of the stuff to make the infamous "White Lightning" RCA interconnects, but decided I'd try to make a short set of the speaker wires as well, substituting the Electras and see what happens.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html
That's a project that's still a ways ahead when I feel bold enough to try it with my (very limited) soldering skills/tools.
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The Super V kit came with these Electra Interconnect connectors. It replaces the standard blade type connectors on almost all speaker cables. In theory, these "Electra's" sound like a good idea. Problem is, this would mean to me that I take my pretty expensive Synergistic Research Tesla speaker cables and cut the lugs off them making them pretty much worthless in the possible "I want to sell these" marketplace.
You can always re-terminate the ends with some spades if the next owner wants to take that backwards step back to binding posts. That's easy.
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Michael,
You have lots on your plate. I'm impressed with the speakers, the preamp and the room. If you ever feel the need to get out of San Jose and come north to take a break from the build we're here for you.
It is another weekend of barrell tasting.
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Michael - it's all about options/tradeoff's/decisions, isn't it? :green:
Must be nice having the head guy at a company giving you a call.
Have you thought about trying the Electras with a different set of speaker cables, then comparing? I bought most of the stuff to make the infamous "White Lightning" RCA interconnects, but decided I'd try to make a short set of the speaker wires as well, substituting the Electras and see what happens.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html
That's a project that's still a ways ahead when I feel bold enough to try it with my (very limited) soldering skills/tools.
I've seen, read about the 47's. I think I'll take Danny's approach. In my last life I was/am a NASA certified solderer. Now I can't see anymore and my hands aren't as steady as they were. You wouldn't believe how I could solder a connector for a tank. :uzi:
Cables are by far the hardest thing to purchase and own. I haven't gone the merry-go-round route. Sort of stuck with DIY except for my Tesla's where I didn't want too many compromises between amp and speaker. Some how, that run seemed really important. I would spend more but like what I've had. Compared to the Morrow speaker cables which I inserted in the HT system, the Tesla's were a bit better.
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You can always re-terminate the ends with some spades if the next owner wants to take that backwards step back to binding posts. That's easy.
Probably the logical route Danny.
I looked at my stash of cables, 2 large bins worth (46 years). I've got some long length Monster cables for the subs and a long length of DH-Labs BL-1. Both would work for sub duties. What, in your opinion, would work better? Or, None Of The Above!
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Michael,
You have lots on your plate. I'm impressed with the speakers, the preamp and the room. If you ever feel the need to get out of San Jose and come north to take a break from the build we're here for you.
It is another weekend of barrell tasting.
On my way Cheeseboy. Need to get out of dodge.
That's what everyone is talking about at work - my overflowing plate!
Every person that sat around my office including those who used to sit next to my office got terminated from work Monday. Now I have a .4 billion dollar project weighing rather heavily on my shoulders :o But at least I didn't get laid off!
What a minute, did I read "barrell" tasting? Should I BYOG? (bring your own glass).
And now that I received my amps, I'm inclined to build some nice boxes :?
I'm getting closer but building boxes isn't something my feeble carpentry skills wants to do.
Is it easier to laminate or stain :scratch:
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Michael, for what it is worth, I was very happy with the cables I got from Jason at Virtue Audio that I used to connect my servo subs. He will do custom lengths and the price is very reasonable. Keep in mind that your "subs" are actually playing all the way up to 200Hz or so, not just doing "sub" duty, if that changes your thoughts regarding cabling.
Good luck with the sub boxes. :D
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Michael, for what it is worth, I was very happy with the cables I got from Jason at Virtue Audio that I used to connect my servo subs. He will do custom lengths and the price is very reasonable. Keep in mind that your "subs" are actually playing all the way up to 200Hz or so, not just doing "sub" duty, if that changes your thoughts regarding cabling.
Good luck with the sub boxes. :D
200Hz on the servo's? Thanks for the good advice Jonathon. I'll check them out. :thumb:
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BYOTB - Bring Your Own Turkey Baster. Gotta get the wine out of the barrell somehow.
And now back to our regularly scheduled speaker build.
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Update:
The binding post screws on one of the top mounted drivers has the wrong size screws as in, too short. These are the screws that attach the voice coils to the binding posts. When I received the driver the posts were dangling with the voice coil wires and associated hardware which are the little plastic washers werre found floating in the box. I think I've retrieved those little washers (bummer if one is missing). The problem that I've discovered is that the screws are simply too short. :evil: You cannot isolate and attach the binding posts which is why they fell off in the first place. They were maybe being held on by one thread. Now I need to replace the screws which involves resoldering or recrimping the voice coil wires. Not that big of deal but another task and hope I don't screw it up. That would be bad. :nono:
One of my power wires is about 3" too short to the post. :evil: I can either crimp to extend wire or replace entirely from the cross-over which is painfull because it attaches in 2 places on my cross-over components. The logical side of me says crimping and soldering to extend the power wire would make no diffrence in sound. The anal side of me wants to spend an additional hour replacing the wire and possibly harming the components on the board.
Last night I realized that their are 2 open panels that attach to the back side of the speaker. (So that's where those panels go :duh:)
It also looks like they would attach by dowels located on the brace that accepts the speaker and amp terminals. I assume the upper attachment is via screws and not glued in case of any need to replace the sub(s). It looks like one could add grill cloth to the back aside as well - kinda cool.
I think I have enough bits and pieces to get these speakers playing Saturday. I'm taking tomorrow off to help out the wife unit so I'm hopeful to progress on building some boxes and assembling some interconnects.
Wish me luck.
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The anal side of me wants to spend an additional hour replacing the wire and possibly harming the components on the board.
Yes, you should do it. I'm sure your little man will gladly help. :D
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OK so I replaced the wire.
Trying to wire a speaker and watch over my 21 month old boy leads to mistakes. Mistakes cost you wire and sooner or later you run out of wire. I ran out of wire :cry:
The amp boxes are built. I stained them with Sedona red. Tomorrow I'll begin the polyurethane coats, maybe 4. Took most of the day to build the boxes but I have very little woodworking talent.
Here are some pics for sharing.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59292)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59293)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59294)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59295)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59296)
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Everything looks fantastic. :thumb:
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Looks like you're getting real close Michael!
Hope it all comes together and you get to listen to them soon.
Good luck!
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I'm spending way too much time on these. What did they say "the devil is in the details".
The amp boxes are complete unless I decide to add a 5th coat. If they look any better, I might have to make jewelry boxes out of them.
Wiring is complete except for the cables that exit the amps. Still waiting to polyurethane to dry. Then I wire up those ends and test.
One issue I have is that the preamp has only a single RCA output. The amp has only an RCA input as do the sub amps. I have a pair of Monster Y connectors and have some long runs of DH-Labs BL-1's cable I can terminate with RCA's and at least have connectivity.
I stuck a pair of Electra cable interconnects that Danny sent me and did some listening with the family. At first I was enthused. Then I stuck my MAC pallidiums back in and didn't note much of a difference that I thought I heard. It hard comparing cables! You just cannot make snap judgements especially when the new set isn't settled in. So back in went the Electra's.
We listened. Damn my turntable sound great after a rebuild of the cartridge. :violin:
I mean really good. We compared TT to DAC on when I queued up a Journey file. It sounded pretty thin so I queued the same song from the Journey album then switched back and forth. Guess you know what one. It was unanimous. Damn that cart is sounding good.
I played some Joan Osbourne "Relish" on my digital setup. I don't actually believe I've heard her sound better. I swear I saw my Tyler Decades perform a high 5 after playing Crazy Baby and bow after Dracula Moon. It's as if the Decades know they're in for some serious competition. :duel: I swear, I would have not even thought about building these speakers if the Decades sound as they do with tubes. Even the modest amp that's so graciously on loan is sounding great through the Decades. With my critical ears I can hear a bit of glassyness, probably attributed from the Onix and the soundstage isn't so precise. probably attributed to my room, and sure there could be a little more separation with instruments, probably attributable to my analness. So I'll play with those Electra's for a bit then swap back in the Pallidiums and see what I hear.
Sometime tomorrow the V's should be playing. I'm hopeful the Decades don't pull any funny business while were asleep. :sleep:
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Sub amps are completed. Just need to assemble 2 sub interconnects, test and ready to fire.
Wiring on sub amp question
Servo coil - thin black/red wire on amp
Servo coil + thin red wire on amp
Driver coil - goes to black wire on amp
Driver coil + goes to red wire on amp
Can I get some values using my ohm meter to check? Anotherwards, turn amp on and check voltages at speaker drivers? That would be cool. :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59377)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59378)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59379)
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Your ohm meter will just measure resistance, not polarity.
Plug it in and send it some test signals to check it out.
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The Super V's are playing :green:
:guitar:
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The Super V's are playing :green:
:guitar:
and?
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The Super V's are playing :green:
:guitar:
So ?
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The Super V's are playing :green:
:guitar:
:banana piano: :beer:
Congrats!!!
(.........and the early impression verdict is....??????? :green:)
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If they are anything like the v2's were, they sound very good, very dynamic, but a bit thin out of the gate. They keep getting better for about 200 hours and then level out.
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If they are anything like the v2's were, they sound very good, very dynamic, but a bit thin out of the gate. They keep getting better for about 200 hours and then level out.
Exactly the same with my V-1s.........ENJOY!!
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OK quick mow the lawn and 1st impressions break.
Me. Neil Young Prairie wind "Dreamer". Warm enveloping sound. Begin dialing in the subs. RTA on a iPhone showed about a 15% hump between 100 and 240Hz. Not bad. DIaled down the sub a little more but haven't yet returned to RTA. Hung a few more Indian rugs at the request of my wife. Next up, let's see how the bass works, Porcupine Tree. Bass works. :drums:
Very tuneful bass, I'm impressed. Warmer sounding the the Decades and of course we expected that. No subs needed here!
Next up Sarah Brightman. Wow, frickin awesome. Voice is a little rough from raw electronics but wow. Wife told me these are the best speakers she has ever heard. I told her she can't say that because they are not broken in yet. :dunno:
She's excited :shh:
We got better staging too but still have to play with placement.
I need extra ears!
No no rez has been applied yet. Still gotta spike em too.
I'm using some Monster subwoofer cables that are about 1.34 miles long. Is that bad :dunno:
I hear music - gotta go!
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I got extra ears if you ever have another GTG!! :wave:
Glad to hear that the initial impressions are good - they are only going to get better!!
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Once you hear a really good OB speaker, it's hard to go back to box speakers :)
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Welcome to the Super-V family! :thumb:
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Thanks guys :D
Hear that? OMFG. :thumb:
Just listened to David Gilmour and B-Tribe. Wife queued up Spheers something guitar works. Sounds awesome even from the office!
I'm getting why speakers in cabinets is a compromised design. Maybe that's why I loved Vandersteens?
Did I mention the bass?
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Dang, I've got to get a listen to these things. It just seems that everyone who spends any time with them comes away impressed.
And by the way, nice work on the build MichaelHiFi, they look sharp.
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I'm really wanting to hear the Super V's with my Decware amp. As good as its sounding with the Onix :duh:
Need to ditch the Monster cables and find some 3 meter interconnects. A few kind souls mentioned some cables in this thread and Danny lent me some Electra's he probably won't get back.
But honestly there's not much to complain about at this early stage other than the sound of fresh electronic haze. Not to be confused with clarity as these things are revealing but not in an unnatural sense. More on this later.
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Bolder Cables mate exceptionally well with the V series speakers, IMO. And they are a forum sponsor :) Bolder Nitro speaker cables and interconnects all the way!
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Bolder Cables mate exceptionally well with the V series speakers, IMO. And they are a forum sponsor :) Bolder Nitro speaker cables and interconnects all the way!
Those are pretty expensive interconnects (they don't show pricing for 3 meter) for performing duties from 200Hz on down.
Not saying they aren't worth it, but I'd rather spend money on cables that perform the harder to perform duty of 200Hz on up.
I would love to hear the differences in interconnects that run to those plate amps. Anyone here with experience?
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Welcome to the Super V club Michael! :thumb:
Don't delay on the No Rez. It makes quite a difference in the bass, maybe even more than high dollar cables on the sub amps? It really made a difference on mine (note: my cabinets are baltic birch plywood). Everything just had better focus and the bass really tightened up.
Enjoy, more fun coming as they settle in and smooth out :D
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Welcome to the Super V club Michael! :thumb:
Don't delay on the No Rez. It makes quite a difference in the bass, maybe even more than high dollar cables on the sub amps? It really made a difference on mine (note: my cabinets are baltic birch plywood). Everything just had better focus and the bass really tightened up.
Enjoy, more fun coming as they settle in and smooth out :D
I was thinking about that but enjoyed the speakers too much to bother this evening.
The thought also came to me that I need to twist the wires together where 2 conductors are terminated at 1 post. One also seems to lose the secure game. Thought about silver soldering those suckers too. I need to finish the tie wrap clamping program with all the wires as well. And I haven't secured the x-over boxes yet.
I bought some samples online of some grill cloth. During our listening tonight, we are now leaning towards black because the copper simply looks amazing in our room. Black grill cloth might just highlight this point the best.
How do you cut the no-rez?
and thanks for the welcome! :wave:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59477)
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Looking good.....congrats...their very good speakers..enjoy!!! :beer:
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Need to ditch the Monster cables and find some 3 meter interconnects. A few kind souls mentioned some cables in this thread and Danny lent me some Electra's he probably won't get back.
If you like the Electra's, it probably makes sense to stick with them. I know that they are what Danny uses in his system, so his speakers are voiced with them.... and they are about 1/2 the price of the Bolder cables that Tyson mentioned.
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How do you cut the no-rez?
You can use either sisors or razor knife but tablesaw makes real easy work of it.
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I really like the copper look and agree that black grill fabric would look best.
I am going to try cutting my No Rez with an electric carving knife. I've used one on OC703 but not No Rez. I think I read somewhere that someone else had tried it on No Rez.
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I prefer the table saw method for crisp clean cuts....
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Extra ears checking in!
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I prefer the table saw method for crisp clean cuts....
Don't have a table saw. :cry: I do have a compound sliding miter with a broken guard :?
Speakers are breaking in. Need to get a get-to-gether scheduled soon! Like to have my Decware amp but that's in a holding pattern.
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Mike.......IMO, and I've done it with mine, you can simply run hi level jumpers to the plates. Hearing an audible difference, versus low level feeds, is quite subjective, power supplies and room treatments considered. Save your money for the latter.
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Can you borrow a skill saw? I used a cheap cordless skill saw on my No Rez, and it worked perfectly (Sears brand).
I would discourage using a knife. When I tried brand new razors with my No Rez, it dulled them in one or two passes, which just leads to tearing and sloppy looks. Since your No Rez is visible (unlike mine) you want nice straight cuts. I would try to find a miter saw, table saw, skil saw or anything else that is sharp and spins really fast.
No Rez is tough as heck. I didn't believe until I tried cutting it myself.
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Don't have a table saw. :cry: I do have a compound sliding miter with a broken guard :?
Speakers are breaking in. Need to get a get-to-gether scheduled soon! Like to have my Decware amp but that's in a holding pattern.
.......... maybe attendees can bring some amps for comparisons :scratch: :green:
and of course, some wine :wine:
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I'd love to hear my Cherry amp with those bad mammer jammers.
It might be too much power but they do say that "power is your friend"
That is a great color combo. Curtains and Super Vs.
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Can you borrow a skill saw? I used a cheap cordless skill saw on my No Rez, and it worked perfectly (Sears brand).
I would discourage using a knife. When I tried brand new razors with my No Rez, it dulled them in one or two passes, which just leads to tearing and sloppy looks. Since your No Rez is visible (unlike mine) you want nice straight cuts. I would try to find a miter saw, table saw, skil saw or anything else that is sharp and spins really fast.
No Rez is tough as heck. I didn't believe until I tried cutting it myself.
Oops, right, I have a battery powered saw. :oops: That'll probably do the trick. Thanks
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I really like the copper look and agree that black grill fabric would look best.
I am going to try cutting my No Rez with an electric carving knife. I've used one on OC703 but not No Rez. I think I read somewhere that someone else had tried it on No Rez.
I ordered the black grill cloth from PartExpress, the double thick type really black version :)
Along with that I ordered from Morrow Cables a 3 meter pair of their reference sub cables.
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.......... maybe attendees can bring some amps for comparisons :scratch: :green:
and of course, some wine :wine:
By all means, wine and amps are a friendly welcome at the De Salvo home. :wine:
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I'd love to hear my Cherry amp with those bad mammer jammers.
It might be too much power but they do say that "power is your friend"
That is a great color combo. Curtains and Super Vs.
Don't know what power the Cherry can do but the Onix is working 46 watts and will take these suckers to concert level. Played Eminence Front by The Who last night. We were :banana piano:
It was spooky good.
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I'm so glad you like the super V. The dancing on top the piano emoticon says the same thing as goosebumps.
The Cherry is a 380 Watts/Channel digital amp. I just want to hear it on the Super V's. They say it is SET like. It would be a good reference.
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Don't know what power the Cherry can do but the Onix is working 46 watts and will take these suckers to concert level. Played Eminence Front by The Who last night. We were :banana piano:
It was spooky good.
............... I suppose 500 w/channel 8 ohms/1,000 w/channel 4 ohms is total overkill then...........
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Dad and I just got through listening to Radiohead - In Rainbows.
I'm at a loss for description. This after listening to Genesis - Trick Of The Tail. I thought that CD was limited in dynamic range. Boy was I wrong. Holly crap. Dad can't believe it, I can't believe it. :shake:
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High sensitivity, open baffle, concentric drivers, waveguided tweeters, servo bass.... Danny does a LOT right with this design :)
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*mutters to self* I'm happy with my X-Statiks. I'm happy with my X-Statiks. I'm happy with my X-Statiks.... (sigh)
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At RMAF, every year that he's brought the Super V's, they have had the best bass of any room in the show. We are talking about $75k speakers it's going against. Mids/highs were always good, but not among the very best at show. With the latest cap upgrade, that changed. IMO, the Super V's were right up there with the very best speakers in the world and in most cases, better. I can't believe how cheap they are, Danny should charge a LOT more for these (but don't tell him that!).
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The Super V's greatest strength is (to my ears) its bass. I am curious as to how long it will take other manufacturers and designers to recognize the benefits of servo-controlled subs.
I eagerly await the new BG driver-based line of speakers Danny is working on.
Larry
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ya'll are almost convincing me to take the 7 hr drive from Houston, drive there, spend 5k or so, and get that ugly yellow (sorry, but i think it is ugly) he has for sale...
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ya'll are almost convincing me to take the 7 hr drive from Houston, drive there, spend 5k or so, and get that ugly yellow (sorry, but i think it is ugly) he has for sale...
The Yellow pair is still available and currently being demo'ed at Gary Dodd's house in Dallas.
And by the way, the side panels can be unscrewed and removed. Then they can be painted any color that you want.
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i was gonna ask that...
I got a pair of xtra tall N3s last year and I am happy with them for my home office. these would be for a system in a larger living room...
hummmm, i wanted to get a new rolex this year. now... rolex or superv... superv vs rolex... decisions, decisions, decisions.
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i was gonna ask that...
I got a pair of xtra tall N3s last year and I am happy with them for my home office. these would be for a system in a larger living room...
hummmm, i wanted to get a new rolex this year. now... rolex or superv... superv vs rolex... decisions, decisions, decisions.
Oh, let me help with that decision. :icon_twisted: Cheap out on the watch and go with the V. Rolex only tells time anyway, and your phone does that already But one NEEDS speakers, right?
See, so easy for me to spend your money, its a no-brainer....
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i was gonna ask that...
I got a pair of xtra tall N3s last year and I am happy with them for my home office. these would be for a system in a larger living room...
hummmm, i wanted to get a new rolex this year. now... rolex or superv... superv vs rolex... decisions, decisions, decisions.
Submariner! :wink:
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Sea Dweller would be my choice for a nice Rolex, but I think the Super V's are a better deal, particularly already built.
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The Super V's greatest strength is (to my ears) its bass. I am curious as to how long it will take other manufacturers and designers to recognize the benefits of servo-controlled subs.
Larry
Ummm, other manufacturers have been using servo controlled subs for decades. You can go as far back as the early 80's to Infinity and the IRS. (edit - actually probably back to the 70's, I believe the Servostatics used a servo controlled woofer - hence the name.)
Maybe the trick is to use servos with open baffles? No, wait, didn't Gradient do that in the late 80's / early 90's?
So you see, the trick isn't in the technology, just the application of it.
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we digress way off topic here... but, yeah submariner, black and gold, with diamonds :D miser $14k change.
I got my relative good hi-fi system last year (existing cdp, new: EEminimax dac, EE M88, and N3s), i think this year I will go for the rolex. maybe 2013 I will get a new system with the super Vs for the living room, God willing.
Danny, if Gary Dodd ever has a, lets say, listening night with friends, please let me know. I could drive there for a listen. :D
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we digress way off topic here... but, yeah submariner, black and gold, with diamonds :D miser $14k change.
I've got a GREAT contact if you need one....PM if you need it.
Back to Super V's.......
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i was gonna ask that...
I got a pair of xtra tall N3s last year and I am happy with them for my home office. these would be for a system in a larger living room...
hummmm, i wanted to get a new rolex this year. now... rolex or superv... superv vs rolex... decisions, decisions, decisions.
With the Super V's, you might lose track of time. Get both :lol:
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Ummm, other manufacturers have been using servo controlled subs for decades. You can go as far back as the early 80's to Infinity and the IRS. (edit - actually probably back to the 70's, I believe the Servostatics used a servo controlled woofer - hence the name.)
Maybe the trick is to use servos with open baffles? No, wait, didn't Gradient do that in the late 80's / early 90's?
So you see, the trick isn't in the technology, just the application of it.
That old servo stuff was primitive technology compared to what the Super-V uses. No comparison.
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At RMAF, every year that he's brought the Super V's, they have had the best bass of any room in the show. We are talking about $75k speakers it's going against.
Not to take anything away from the speakers, but a big part of bass performance you reference is a direct result of the fact that Danny is smart enough to treat the room. Most floor standers and certainly all speakers that I can think of in the price class you mention produce far more bass than rooms of the typical RMAF size can handle without treatment.
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So those other speaker manufacturers haven't figured out how to treat a room? I wouldn't want to buy anything from somebody that hasn't figured that out yet. I do see room treatments in most pictures from the RMAF. They must have the wrong treatments.
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Room treatments will help the mids/highs, but won't help much in the bass. OB bass is a nice improvement over box bass specifically because it interacts with the room in a different way, resulting in less modes, which equals better bass for the listener. Throw in dual 12 inch servo subs and you have a world class bass solution.
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Michael, the speakers (and room!) look great. . . and you are making it very hard on me!
See, with all my house cleaning lately, I found myself basically without speakers. After about a week and a half, it dawned on me that I still had the p-audio coaxials and the crossovers from my sealed speaker build. I figured, "well, it has got to be better than nothing", so I currently have the coaxials sitting on the floor out in the open pointed straight up with the wiring from the crossovers clamped to my speaker cables/amp.
I know the crossover is totally wrong, and the speaker placement (if you want to call it that) is poor at best, and there is no bass to speak of, but darned if every once in while a little bit of "magic" shines through. . .
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OB bass doesn't load the room like a boxed speaker but there can still be standing waves in the corners of the room that can have a negative effect on the sound.
At RMAF we not only have a curtain around the room, but some foam wedges in the corners of the room. Then we used diffusors to improve image focus and sound stage size.
And yes, we are one of the only exhibitors at RMAF that understands how to set up a room. And that is not just because of me. The guys that I show with are the best in the industry when it comes to knowing how to set up a room. And they all have great ears too.
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And thats why I own GR Designed Speakers.
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I am blessed to have full control over my room. My wife cares about sound as will stick 20lb bags of sand on components if that improves the sound. And she has.
That being said I don't have a great deal of treatments in my room because;
There's a lot to consider!
I need to shore up the foundation with piers (what a total PIA)
I have the appropriate bass traps in the corner
I'm open in the back of the room
I've got a lot of S on the sides including my damn Indian rugs (no smilies for Indians - racists :lol:)
The bass sounds great in this room, best I've heard and I don't hear much difference with the no-rez.
I'd like to add a diffuser to our ceiling.
There's supposed to be a tweak with the plate amps. Danny, can you elaborate?
Still waiting for sub interconnects and wire.
Would someday like to have my Torii amp. I have 2 of them but none of them. :icon_frown:
Thanks for the kind words Jonathon! Sorry to make it tough on you but come on over for a listen and see if it's worth it.
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You'll like this;
I come home today excited to play the Super V's for the wife who was at work yesterday evening. We had listened to Radiohead last night and it was mind bending.
So I warmed the system and queued RH. I sat her down in the sweet spot and let er rip. It sounded good. Pretty good. She really liked it. After a few songs though I thought to myself, "sounds better in the evening when there's better AC". Still though, it didn't seem right. Nothing changed from last night so what gives? I looked at my pre, at my borrowed amp, at the Oppo, what gives? I looked down at the amp boxes. The amp box on the right had all the controls altered. The volume was turned ALL THE WAY DOWN. Jr had found the amp box.
Ah-hem, OK dear, let's try this again. :duh:
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Michael, thanks for the invite, but I think I'm a little far out to make a road trip of it (I'm in WI). Would really like to (hopefully) meet a bunch of you all at RMAF this year (I'm going to try harder to make it out this time around!)
Let's just say that I'm fairly confident it would be "worth it" - all I ever seem to hear about these speakers is "best I've ever heard" from a lot of people who have heard/owned some gear far above my humble pay grade. I've just got some logistics issues right now that keep me from just pulling the trigger (room, moving, and lack of DIY woodworking to keep it short).
Regarding room treatments and such, I know I might take some heat for this statement from folks who swear by measurements above all else, but bottom line (IMHO and all that, of course) - if your room looks great, sounds great, and makes you happy, you've done it "right", plain and simple. Theory and measurements can be then used to "prove it" as well as give a more focused idea as to how to go about making "great" better without as much extra cost, trial, and error. :thumb:
Re: the kids - :lol: Precious!
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That old servo stuff was primitive technology compared to what the Super-V uses. No comparison.
Yes it was primitive, but I will say this.
When I heard the Infinity IRS Reference III's in 1979 at an audio show, I was in awe! With 12 -12" sealed servo woofers and 3000 watts of power behind them, they made bass response in a large room that was awesome! The 30Hz content of Mannheim Steamrollers Fresh Aire III " Tocatta" made your chest resonate!
The Super-V's produce great bass in my setup. But I still drool over the the IRS III's! :)
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Michael,
Beautiful job on those speakers! When are you going to have a listening get together? I'd love to hear and see them in person.
Ken
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The amp box on the right had all the controls altered. The volume was turned ALL THE WAY DOWN. Jr had found the amp box.
I found it's a good idea once you get the amps settings locked in to take a picture of them for reference. Especially if kids have access to them.
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That old servo stuff was primitive technology compared to what the Super-V uses. No comparison.
No argument from me Dannny, but remember LarryB's original comment was " I am curious as to how long it will take other manufacturers and designers to recognize the benefits of servo-controlled subs." I was just trying to explain that there is a long history of manufacturers using servo control on bass drivers. Yes, it was primitive compared to today, but it was SOTA back then. I'm sure that 30-40 years from now your current implementation will also be considered primitive.
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I found it's a good idea once you get the amps settings locked in to take a picture of them for reference. Especially if kids have access to them.
I'm still playing with the settings and trying to get to know what does what. To be honest, it's kind of confusing. It's also difficult to change setting from behind the speaker, run to the couch and judge whether you made and improvement or went backward. Wouldn't it be cool if there was an app that allowed adjustments from the couch. :drool: I'm also moving the speakers around trying to gain separation of instruments and vocals. I have great depth and a fairly good central image. And the bass is frickin awesome.
I'd really like to have my Decware amp before the GTG. Unless of course I get Morgan and Creta to join us. Are you listening Morgan? He's got a Torii and an EE DAC :thumb: I'm waiting on sub amp interconnects which should arrive in about 2 weeks.
I'm totally pissed off at Magnolia lo-fi. Why is it that we can order something from say Sweden or China and get it within 2 weeks, but Worst Buy and Lo-Fi tell you 10 business days, then 4 weeks later they tell you it takes at least 6 weeks. We have a equipment stand for the TT ordered. Is it coming from the moon? Still, it shouldn't take 6 weeks! If I want to play a record, I need to reinstall my arm (no big deal) and reset the settings then remove when I'm done or Jr might remove for me. He's a born audio guy but hasn't learned "tracking force" yet. :roll:
Rant over.
Plan on a GTG in about 2 to 4 weeks. I'll post a new thread on that event.
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Hi Michael.....of course we would like to come and bring the Torii and I have two DAC's to bring, the EE Plus and the latest Tranquility SE. and yes the 2-4 week range would be best for us also.
So glad that you are loving your system :thumb: It must be extra gratifying to know that you built them yourself :thumb:
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Michael, thanks for the invite, but I think I'm a little far out to make a road trip of it (I'm in WI). Would really like to (hopefully) meet a bunch of you all at RMAF this year (I'm going to try harder to make it out this time around!)
Let's just say that I'm fairly confident it would be "worth it" - all I ever seem to hear about these speakers is "best I've ever heard" from a lot of people who have heard/owned some gear far above my humble pay grade. I've just got some logistics issues right now that keep me from just pulling the trigger (room, moving, and lack of DIY woodworking to keep it short).
Regarding room treatments and such, I know I might take some heat for this statement from folks who swear by measurements above all else, but bottom line (IMHO and all that, of course) - if your room looks great, sounds great, and makes you happy, you've done it "right", plain and simple. Theory and measurements can be then used to "prove it" as well as give a more focused idea as to how to go about making "great" better without as much extra cost, trial, and error. :thumb:
Re: the kids - :lol: Precious!
The Super V's seem very room friendly speakers. No doubt due to there open baffle design. Mine are well out into the room, and spread wide apart, maybe too wide right now. They are toed in but not facing the listener or "sweet spot" In fact, speaking of sweet spot, it seems pretty generous on the V's. It's not MBL territory, but it's definitely not Audio Physic territory either, the latter being "hold your head still and be amazed" otherwise, forget it.
I still wish to fix that first reflection point on the ceiling.
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Hi Michael.....of course we would like to come and bring the Torii and I have two DAC's to bring, the EE Plus and the latest Tranquility SE. and yes the 2-4 week range would be best for us also.
So glad that you are loving your system :thumb: It must be extra gratifying to know that you built them yourself :thumb:
My Hero's :hyper:
and you have the latest Tranquility. Would you mind picking up a DAC-41 too. I wish to compare all three... :)
You bet, it's cool. I'll post a "lessons learned" for others. An ML (material list) would also be extremely useful!
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I'm still playing with the settings and trying to get to know what does what. To be honest, it's kind of confusing. It's also difficult to change setting from behind the speaker, run to the couch and judge whether you made and improvement or went backward. Wouldn't it be cool if there was an app that allowed adjustments from the couch. :drool:
When I built my V-1s I thought about that as well. I put 9' long cables from the amps to the speaker, lets me adjust while in my seat,although I have to bend down to the floor. Was afraid this might be a problem, but turns out not.
I have been playing around with REW.....its amazing how such a small adjustment or two on the sub amps can change the graph so dramatically.
Room treatments for me brought out the best in my V-1s...Glad I took the plunge
Your supers look beautiful Micheal, congrats!!
Perry
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When I built my V-1s I thought about that as well. I put 9' long cables from the amps to the speaker, lets me adjust while in my seat,although I have to bend down to the floor. Was afraid this might be a problem, but turns out not.
I have been playing around with REW.....its amazing how such a small adjustment or two on the sub amps can change the graph so dramatically.
Room treatments for me brought out the best in my V-1s...Glad I took the plunge
Your supers look beautiful Micheal, congrats!!
Perry
Thanks Perry,
I'm trying to come up with what REW stands for :scratch:
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Thanks Perry,
I'm trying to come up with what REW stands for :scratch:
REW = Room EQ Wizard:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
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When I built my V-1s I thought about that as well. I put 9' long cables from the amps to the speaker, lets me adjust while in my seat,although I have to bend down to the floor. Was afraid this might be a problem, but turns out not.
Actually that will cause some delay in the woofer correction and control.
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Thanks Danny......so what does that mean exactly.....the servos are running behind a bit? What effect should I be trying to identify? and how long should the max length be?
I haven't heard a problem so far.....
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Actually that will cause some delay in the woofer correction and control.
The delay with one ft of cable is .93 nanosecond (a nanosecond is 1 billionth of a second). It will take 8.37 nanoseconds if you increase the length to 9 ft. How can 7.44 billionths of a second even be relevant?
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Brian recommends that the amps stay close to the woofers. The longer the lengths the more it effects the control.
Personally I add no wire length to the path and just use the wiring from the amp straight to the SpeakOn connector that plugs into the speaker.
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I have one sub with 15' of cable.... :dunno: I wonder what is affected.
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I'm going to build 2 extension cables for setup. :thumb:
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. . . I just ordered the rest of the super-v parts from Danny. . .
I blame Michael. :green:
. . . Now I need to figure out where to go to get cabinets done. . .
:beer:
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Johnathon......I've got the complete Super V thing going here in Traverse City, MI.......you can sail on over. PDR is correct, the affects from room treatments and a cryo wired power supply, done well, trump anything in the PC, IC, and amplification dept.
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All dressed up and no one to share.
Soundstage I noted was skewed so I took a bias measurement and discovered that the settings were all over the place. I think I have 1 bad tube as I couldn't set the bias low enough. IO replaced the 6922 but didn't have a spare set of 12AX7's which I think is one of the culprits.
I'm really getting anxious to get my amp back. I'm also in a strange place with that amp. The owner's Dad passed so I've been patient regarding at least a phone call that never happened. It's been almost a month. Now I'm sitting here with an amp on order and a the same used burned up amp in limbo. :?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59624)
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Hi Michael,
I will trade you an amp for some measurements :). I've got a 300b or the decware.......
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Hi Michael,
I will trade you an amp for some measurements :). I've got a 300b or the decware.......
I'm waiting for you. My door is open :green:
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Morgan you are one stand up guy!
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Morgan you are one stand up guy!
Now stand over here! :lol:
I wish I would have known about the top driver gasket install and NOT have installed them. :evil:
To pull them gaskets off will leave a mess and a very ugly looking driver. To leave them on pushes the grill away from the cabinet. Sucks. This will be on my lessons learned list.
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And not in the sweet spot
Hope it all works out
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15 ft of cable length is ok. I tried 25' before. The servo feedback cable should be properly shielded for long run. The feedback signal is pretty high level signal strength (2V all the way to 40V or higher depending on frequency). So it is already relatively immune to noise. Adding shielding will make it more robust. If one uses regular line level cable, use one that has high dieletric voltage strength.
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15 ft of cable length is ok. I tried 25' before. The servo feedback cable should be properly shielded for long run. The feedback signal is pretty high level signal strength (2V all the way to 40V or higher depending on frequency). So it is already relatively immune to noise. Adding shielding will make it more robust. If one uses regular line level cable, use one that has high dieletric voltage strength.
Great to see you here Brian! :thumb:
Stop by more. :D
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15 ft of cable length is ok. I tried 25' before. The servo feedback cable should be properly shielded for long run. The feedback signal is pretty high level signal strength (2V all the way to 40V or higher depending on frequency). So it is already relatively immune to noise. Adding shielding will make it more robust. If one uses regular line level cable, use one that has high dieletric voltage strength.
I was going to use a 2 pair individually shielded 18awg 300 volt cable with an overall shield. Just need to locate the appropriate connectors.
The sub cables just shipped. :thumb:
Steve at Decware is working on my burned amp. Not sure how this will be handled but I'm sure missing that amp :?
Interesting to note that in listening to the Super V's last night, detail retrieval in female vocals was amazing. It was a fun listening session 8)
I flipped on the PEQ and dialed up a bit of mid-bass. Still have some learning curve with the rythmic as I lost the instructions :duh: Better look for a download.
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Still have some learning curve with the rythmic as I lost the instructions :duh: Better look for a download.
I knew I saved this for just such emergencies. . . :D Michael, if you can't find it otherwise, PM me your email address (or send me an email) and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
:beer:
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Be careful, very soon your "blown away" experience with the Super V's will become your new standard. And once you are acclimated to that new standard, most other systems will sound pretty underwhelming.
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I knew I saved this for just such emergencies. . . :D Michael, if you can't find it otherwise, PM me your email address (or send me an email) and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
:beer:
Got it, thanks Jonathon. :wave:
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I'm in the late stages of my Super V build (along time in the making) and have a couple questions relating to this new Jupiter Cap and inductor in the crossover (which I don't have because I bought my kit over a year ago), as well as a question about connections and settings on the Rythmik plate amp.
1) I am debating whether to implement this Jupiter Cap modification, and I was wondering if I might be able to use caps that I already own, which are rather nice and expensive Hovland Musicap 2.0 mf caps instead of the 2.2 mf Jupiters. I don't have any spare inductors lying around, so I'd have to buy those for sure, and maybe I would just need to adjust that value to account for the slight difference in the cap value. Just a thought.
2) I haven't seen any discussions or details about the set up and adjustments to the plate amp, which seems to be quite complex and adjustable. There must be a thousand different permutations of setting on that beast, and I don't know where to begin.
Just a quick peak at my build as it stands so far.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59981)
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1) I am debating whether to implement this Jupiter Cap modification, and I was wondering if I might be able to use caps that I already own, which are rather nice and expensive Hovland Musicap 2.0 mf caps instead of the 2.2 mf Jupiters. I don't have any spare inductors lying around, so I'd have to buy those for sure, and maybe I would just need to adjust that value to account for the slight difference in the cap value. Just a thought.
The Hovland caps are Aluminum foil caps rolled in a poly film and are very bright and often grainy in their character. That would be the wrong direction with these. The Sonicaps that the kit came with are a far better choice.
The Jupiter caps are a film and foil in paper and bees wax. They are a much smoother and lush sounding cap. They are a great match for this driver.
2) I haven't seen any discussions or details about the set up and adjustments to the plate amp, which seems to be quite complex and adjustable. There must be a thousand different permutations of setting on that beast, and I don't know where to begin.
Here you go. Measured and tested to be just right. Start here and then tweak as per your room.
(http://gr-research.com/mis/amp%20settings.jpg)
Also, a tube trap in that corner and pulling the speakers out a little further from the wall would go a long way.
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Danny, maybe a dumb question (maybe just academic?) in pairing the servo subs with high-efficiency speakers: Consider that the line level inputs on the amp are wired such that running a splitter to both L+R inputs would get you +3db of gain before hitting the controls built in to the amp. One could then turn the gain knob on the amp down a bit.
Would (does?) it sound better/worse/not really any different picking up more gain to the servos from the preamp rather than the plate amp? (Maybe wouldn't be different than running the output from a pre at +3db hotter than normal?)
I was kind of thinking in terms of headroom/adjustment room on the plate amp, but maybe the whole point is moot with the OB subs considering the system is driver/excursion limited in output rather than limited by available power (regardless of whether or not the output capability is more than adequate with the settings/configuration as shown)?
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Thanks Danny. I'll skip the Hovland caps for sure and consider adding the Jupiter at some point. I'm just finishing the original crossovers now, but my board is big enough to receive the added components when the time comes.
Is that just one connection coming into the plate amp, or is the black connection just hidden in the photo?
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Oh, and I will have my tube trap back in the corner when everything is complete. It's just out during the "construction" phase.
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OK, now I get it...... Of course, these plate amps are mono amps in this case. You can see why this project has taken me so long to work through. And it doesn't help that my job eats up at least 70 hours a week with a lot of travel.
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Danny, maybe a dumb question (maybe just academic?) in pairing the servo subs with high-efficiency speakers: Consider that the line level inputs on the amp are wired such that running a splitter to both L+R inputs would get you +3db of gain before hitting the controls built in to the amp. One could then turn the gain knob on the amp down a bit.
Would (does?) it sound better/worse/not really any different picking up more gain to the servos from the preamp rather than the plate amp? (Maybe wouldn't be different than running the output from a pre at +3db hotter than normal?)
I was kind of thinking in terms of headroom/adjustment room on the plate amp, but maybe the whole point is moot with the OB subs considering the system is driver/excursion limited in output rather than limited by available power (regardless of whether or not the output capability is more than adequate with the settings/configuration as shown)?
It should sound the same.
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Quick update;
So the speakers are burning in and the Tyler Decade D1's have been reinserted in the system.
The Decades sound very good. A different presentation and a different way to express music. I would call it accurate, not to the point of clinical but a great frequency response. I did an RTA which I tried to post on Youtube but it seems I failed. I don't do youtube although I know it's wildly popular. I suck at social media except geeky audio forums and I probably suck there (here) too. :icon_lol:
Going back to the Super V's we get a very different perspective. You've got bass, plenty of it. The highs are good not great, not a lot of air and the mids I hope will come around. We were listening to Depeche Mode "Ultra", a favorite of ours from a while back. It was pretty aggressive sounding. We reminisced on how good it sounded with our reference system, The Pass amp, PerfectWave DAC, LS6, Cary Preamp combo. That was magic.
I started listening again to the song "uselink" the had a thought about the Sonic cap directly in the path of of my positive lead of the interconnect. It struck me in a way that it seemed to me that the entire character of my system was now fully dependent of the character of that cap. I told my wife that putting such faith in a "Sonic cap" directly in the signal chain may not be a good idea. I mean hell, maybe a Dueland or nothing at all. I also realize that cap is not broken in. Let's take it out and give it a listen.
Now were rockin! Oh ya, voices have body, no etchiness, nastiness, let's turn it up! Air guitar was happening. :guitar: The 4th cut of that album is priceless. The guttural sound of the bass line is addicting through these speakers.
I'm still waiting for my amp. Decware called me (what a concept) and came to an agreement that they'll fix my burned up amp, try to mitigate the smell and perform the upgrade I wanted, an expensive one to the V-Caps.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=60164)
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Those Sonicap Platinum's will need a good 500 to 1000 hours of burn in time. The same goes for those Jupiter caps in the tweeter circuit.
And I have had several high end amp manufactures switch from V-Caps to the Sonicap Platinum's liking the Platinum's better. And the Platinum's are less expensive.
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We have the Sonic cap back in the signal chain and burning with the mute circuit engaged on the pre. It's in a really tough stage of its life :|
The Jupiter's we've noticed, are already starting to smooth out. We used the Sonic caps on the LS6's with similar results - they are tough to listen to for a while.
I'm not sold on any one cap. They are sound different and I can't say I've had experience with many but if you do enough research, they seem to have their own unique traits. Duelund and gold/silver oil Mundorf's seem to lead the long pack. I wanted to play with the sound of some of these caps. That's why I opted for outboard cross-overs on the Decades. But one must have patience, time, money and a way to burn those suckers in or you'll never be able to enjoy your music :)
If I were to borrow some verbiage off a pretty cool website regarding the Jupiters Danny uses.
Jupiter HT BeesWax 600VDC - 5% tolerance
"Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "Old Concept New Technology - A unique blend of the old sound with refinements of the new. New high temp series replaces the original beeswax/paper design. Jupiter Condenser HT line of capacitors features a reinforced beeswax paper dielectric and (with further improved impregnation techniques) is now cased in a non drip/melt casing and can withstand higher operating temperatures. Perfect for DIY and OEM use where natural sound is demanded. Operating Temperature: 70°C; Voltage: 600VDC - Tested at 1200VDC at two stages of production; Aluminum Foil; Silver Lead wire 20awg; Cryogenic Treatment; Made in USA of US materials."
Sound: I found the Jupiter HT BeesWax to be very spatious and rich in harmonic texture. They are clear and open but there is never and over-emphasis on any area. Compared to AmpOhm aluminium foil types the Jupiter has more air and they produce a wider image where as the AmpOhm project more front to back. Still not quite as neutral and coherent sounding as the Duelund VSF but at the same high quality level as the top of the range Mundorf's. They have a nice fleshy treble with a rich midrange to match. They act well under all conditions and don't seem to have any preferences. I find them very pleasing to listen to."
Seem sort of perfect for the Super V's. Guess that's why he used them! :thumb:
As far as the V-Caps are concerned, that's what the manufacturer offers. The warning on those was that's it takes 500-1000hrs to settle in! Sound familiar?
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As far as the V-Caps are concerned, that's what the manufacturer offers. The warning on those was that's it takes 500-1000hrs to settle in! Sound familiar?
Yep, that is pretty much a standard for any Teflon based cap.
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Or you could take ALL of the caps (and coils) out of the signal path and go fully active! :o
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We have the Sonic cap back in the signal chain and burning with the mute circuit engaged on the pre. It's in a really tough stage of its life :|
The Jupiter's we've noticed, are already starting to smooth out. We used the Sonic caps on the LS6's with similar results - they are tough to listen to for a while.
I'm not sold on any one cap. They are sound different and I can't say I've had experience with many but if you do enough research, they seem to have their own unique traits. Duelund and gold/silver oil Mundorf's seem to lead the long pack. I wanted to play with the sound of some of these caps. That's why I opted for outboard cross-overs on the Decades. But one must have patience, time, money and a way to burn those suckers in or you'll never be able to enjoy your music :)
If I were to borrow some verbiage off a pretty cool website regarding the Jupiters Danny uses.
Jupiter HT BeesWax 600VDC - 5% tolerance
"Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "Old Concept New Technology - A unique blend of the old sound with refinements of the new. New high temp series replaces the original beeswax/paper design. Jupiter Condenser HT line of capacitors features a reinforced beeswax paper dielectric and (with further improved impregnation techniques) is now cased in a non drip/melt casing and can withstand higher operating temperatures. Perfect for DIY and OEM use where natural sound is demanded. Operating Temperature: 70°C; Voltage: 600VDC - Tested at 1200VDC at two stages of production; Aluminum Foil; Silver Lead wire 20awg; Cryogenic Treatment; Made in USA of US materials."
Sound: I found the Jupiter HT BeesWax to be very spatious and rich in harmonic texture. They are clear and open but there is never and over-emphasis on any area. Compared to AmpOhm aluminium foil types the Jupiter has more air and they produce a wider image where as the AmpOhm project more front to back. Still not quite as neutral and coherent sounding as the Duelund VSF but at the same high quality level as the top of the range Mundorf's. They have a nice fleshy treble with a rich midrange to match. They act well under all conditions and don't seem to have any preferences. I find them very pleasing to listen to."
Seem sort of perfect for the Super V's. Guess that's why he used them! :thumb:
As far as the V-Caps are concerned, that's what the manufacturer offers. The warning on those was that's it takes 500-1000hrs to settle in! Sound familiar?
If you'd like something neutral and spacious, without breaking the bank, try a Clarity Cap MR. These things are really something. However, I'd be the first to agree that there really isn't anything much better than a sonicap for the price (assuming you prefer neutrality). I really enjoy the sound of Duelund, but that's real $$$$$.
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Which Cary Preamp and which Pass amp were you using with the Ls6?
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Which Cary Preamp and which Pass amp were you using with the Ls6?
I was using the Cary SLP-05 and a Pass Labs X350.5. The Allnic probably betters the Cary although the Cary had a great deal of flexibility. The Cary was a beautiful 2 chassis unit. The Allnic is beautiful and just carries the music.
I didn't need 350WPC for the Super V's :green:
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If you'd like something neutral and spacious, without breaking the bank, try a Clarity Cap MR. These things are really something. However, I'd be the first to agree that there really isn't anything much better than a sonicap for the price (assuming you prefer neutrality). I really enjoy the sound of Duelund, but that's real $$$$$.
I haven't been able to get my system built as a whole due to so many problems. Waiting for that (broken amp), on the fence about this (modding the Oppo or stand alone DAC), loving line arrays but going with the Super V's.
I need to stop.
Stop this madness :icon_twisted:
But I'm not alone. The wife unit wants the magic too, and we had this with the LS6's. With the Super V's, we think we can better that amazing synergy.
Once I have an intact, working system, then we could have fun, if we want with trying a cap or 2 here and there. I've heard great things about Duelund resistors too. Do I really want to go there :scratch:
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I haven't been able to get my system built as a whole due to so many problems. Waiting for that (broken amp), on the fence about this (modding the Oppo or stand alone DAC), loving line arrays but going with the Super V's.
I need to stop.
Stop this madness :icon_twisted:
But I'm not alone. The wife unit wants the magic too, and we had this with the LS6's. With the Super V's, we think we can better that amazing synergy.
Once I have an intact, working system, then we could have fun, if we want with trying a cap or 2 here and there. I've heard great things about Duelund resistors too. Do I really want to go there :scratch:
I've heard great things about the resistors too. I ordered some, but I haven't had the chance to hear them yet. I've only heard their caps.
Right now I'm building a set of LS9's crossovers using all Duelund parts, but it will be a while before I can finish. I'm saving up for the remaining two big caps. I also have a set of custom Dodd monoblocks being built that will be using some Duelund parts. I really like the sound of Duelund's stuff, just not their prices. :o
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I've heard great things about the resistors too. I ordered some, but I haven't had the chance to hear them yet. I've only heard their caps.
Right now I'm building a set of LS9's crossovers using all Duelund parts, but it will be a while before I can finish. I'm saving up for the remaining two big caps. I also have a set of custom Dodd monoblocks being built that will be using some Duelund parts. I really like the sound of Duelund's stuff, just not their prices. :o
I need to keep track of your build :drool:
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Stop the Madness!
Dude, the Allnic Pre SR is $11K. The Pass is a tall order as well.
Maybe the Pass for X-Mas. Used of course. Did you ever use it RCA in?
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Stop the Madness!
Dude, the Allnic Pre SR is $11K. The Pass is a tall order as well.
Maybe the Pass for X-Mas. Used of course. Did you ever use it RCA in?
Face it Steve - Michael has been bittten, HARD, by the quest for better sound (sounds like the wife may be just as bad - but that's a good thing - wish I had that kind of support with regards to budgeting).
It's a long road, but a great journey IMHO.
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Stop the Madness!
Dude, the Allnic Pre SR is $11K. The Pass is a tall order as well.
Maybe the Pass for X-Mas. Used of course. Did you ever use it RCA in?
I got an unbelievable deal on that pre. That's where last years tax money went :lol:
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Stop the Madness!
Dude, the Allnic Pre SR is $11K. The Pass is a tall order as well.
Maybe the Pass for X-Mas. Used of course. Did you ever use it RCA in?
Oh ya, sold the Pass for $5200. You missed out :sleep:
RCA in on what, The Pass? I used balanced where I could and balanced from the Pass to the Cary and then the Allnic.
The Pass wouldn't play well with the Decades. The Decades like tubes IMO. I tried 3 different SS amps to test. To analytical for me anyway.
The Super V's were sounding very nice last night. Lena is really liking what she hears :singing:
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Lena has good ears as I recall. I'm stuck here in Florida working a convention and miss my rig. I think I need to find a way to fit a 350.5 in my system I like my cherry amp and think I might war reach higher
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After what I'm experiencing with Decware, I'm missing my Pass. :cry:
Pass Labs was so great to work with. I mean they went way over the top to make sure you get taken care of whether the amp is new or used. They didn't ask and they didn't care. They simply took care of business.
I thought there might be a chance of actually getting my amp in a few weeks. I just paid for a cap upgrade, shipping and a warranty I didn't know I had to pay for. I also had to pay a $100 bucks for them to solder in the caps! I mean yikes, it's on the bench with a burned up transformer and goo all over the place... Well, at least they didn't charge me the $477 they said they saved me by selling me a warranty :?
The Super V's are really opening up. Wow. Wow wow wow. Wow. And with a 1K dollar amp that may not be completely healthy, I'm just saying wow. Listening to The Who Tommy "Overture/ It's a Boy", the V's take you to the performance in a balanced, detailed, non-fatiguing, rhythmic, yet dynamic picture. The image is starting to solidify, possibly helped from some additional room treatments. Again, I was mesmerized by the musical performance from a band that one might not associate with precision musicianship, this was clearly defined through the V's. This I believe was partly due to the way you could track each musician separately if you choose too or simply sit back and take in the performance as a whole. I've listening to these cuts on many a system and haven't heard it this good and this "complete". Playing Tracy Chapman "Fast Car", the song simply sounded for lack of a better word, real. Often I think, I could get caught up in a certain portion of the sound that sounded cool be it in the detail of the recording, the guttural sound of a bass guitar note, or just the rhythm and pace of the song, but then my mind would wander too what was not right, or, not being involved emotionally. A lot of that is mood I know. Heck, I loved my Zenith clock radio when I was 5 or so and loved "Red Rubber Ball". Sounded great. I'm finding myself now VERY involved and feeling after each song, wanting to stop and think about what I just heard. In fact, I played some stuff which I didn't think I would like. So much of my music is tough to listen too. It's just too bright or too harsh, and unless I spin vinyl which almost always cures that affliction, I stay away from a lot of what I used to like a 100 years ago. I usually blame it on digital and rightly so! But wait, something seems to have changed. I spun The Doobie Brothers. Nothing special except of course the song "it keeps you running". Something special about that song - a timing thing - can't explain it, not a musician. I've listened to this music millions of times mostly on the radio. It's so completely different through the V's. Same with The "Wallflowers". Each song had a different flow to it, something different to offer. There's nothing that sounds homogenized hear. I feel like it's the ability to play all the notes with ease that lets the song flow as it was intended to. It's a band with band members all performing in their own space, or in a space not yet fully defined, but you can pick them out individually. Not an etch-a-sketch here we're talking flesh on bones style, and certainly not the obese style of warmth but the kind that musically involves you in the whole portrait of the song. One problem I'm finding is that you find yourself at the volume control turning it up. That is a really good sign that some system synergy is working well (or well enough in my case). I didn't have my DB meter with me and have to be careful with Jr running around. And Jr is really into dancing with these speakers :dance: Just don't want to blow out his tender young ears!
I didn't want to write a two-bit review until I have my amp in my system and I could spin vinyl again without Jr removing my stylus :icon_twisted: Amp or no amp, I'm planning a get-to-gether sometime in April. Stay tuned. You gotta hear these things!
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You are so right I gotta hear them. Just cant the weekend of 4/21. Gotta gig in Seattle. I enjoyed the ob servo bass evaluation in the previous thread. I hope we get a reference aroque piece to listen to from those guys.
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Glad to hear that they are really coming together! Hope that if you have a GTG I get to come. April not the best for me, but it's a bit of a drive anyhow, so........ - friends are having a late celebration of their 40th, and we will be joining them in Kauai the 20-28. (yeah, i know :violin:)
I remember when I heard a Threshold (not quite the same as the Pass) at the stereo store I hung out in my college days, it blew everything else in the store away - and they had some good stuff. If I could afford big Pass/Threshold monoblocks, I'd have them in a heartbeat). I can't imagine the Pass sounding anything less than fantastic with the Super V's.
Keep on :banana piano:
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Mike,
Glad to see that these things are truly opening up for you.
Hope with the Decware things get even better. :thumb:
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Yes, the Super-V's sound great with the Pass Labs Aleph 2 monoblocks. They like single ended Class A amps.
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Glad to hear that they are really coming together! Hope that if you have a GTG I get to come. April not the best for me, but it's a bit of a drive anyhow, so........ - friends are having a late celebration of their 40th, and we will be joining them in Kauai the 20-28. (yeah, i know :violin:)
I remember when I heard a Threshold (not quite the same as the Pass) at the stereo store I hung out in my college days, it blew everything else in the store away - and they had some good stuff. If I could afford big Pass/Threshold monoblocks, I'd have them in a heartbeat). I can't imagine the Pass sounding anything less than fantastic with the Super V's.
Keep on :banana piano:
Remember guys and gals, I don't have the Pass anymore. I didn't think I'd need 350WPC with the Super V's. More like 3.5WPC.
The Alephs would sound amazing, I agree. The Torii is supposed to be amazing. Company not, but amp, maybe.
Working on more room treatments :shh:
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I wonder how Atmasphere amplifiers would sound with the Vs??
:icon_twisted:
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Remember guys and gals, I don't have the Pass anymore. I didn't think I'd need 350WPC with the Super V's. More like 3.5WPC.
You very likely don't need 350W, but how about 40W?
Realize that the 350W rating of the X350.5 amp is the class AB power output into 8 Ohms. If you're running an efficient enough speaker with that amp, you would have the benefit of never leaving class A operation and thus avoiding any crossover distortion. Thus, you could just as easily consider it a 40W (peak) class A amplifier.
(This is more inline with the Pass XA series of amps, where the rating reflects the class A operation limit. Just like the X series, however, the XA series amps will transition into AB beyond their rated limit. Thus, the "small" XA30.5 amp with its 30W class A rating can really put out 153W if you also include its class B region of operation as well. I think all of the First Watt amps are rated based on their class A operation limit as well, rather than their total possible output if you consider class AB.)
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You very likely don't need 350W, but how about 40W?
Realize that the 350W rating of the X350.5 amp is the class AB power output into 8 Ohms. If you're running an efficient enough speaker with that amp, you would have the benefit of never leaving class A operation and thus avoiding any crossover distortion. Thus, you could just as easily consider it a 40W (peak) class A amplifier.
(This is more inline with the Pass XA series of amps, where the rating reflects the class A operation limit. Just like the X series, however, the XA series amps will transition into AB beyond their rated limit. Thus, the "small" XA30.5 amp with its 30W class A rating can really put out 153W if you also include its class B region of operation as well. I think all of the First Watt amps are rated based on their class A operation limit as well, rather than their total possible output if you consider class AB.)
I agree, the X350.5 was class A until ~65WPC then went AB in operation. If one paid attention to the front meters, in my setup(s), I rarely saw them move. Even with inefficient speakers like my former MBL's, it never broke a sweat, but it made us sweat as in a 150lb heater :oops:
XA series amp would have to be stellar but listening to this "inexpensive" Onix, it's really really good. First watt or XA would be fun to insert for a listen. I'm hopeful the Torii will perform magic and not the smokey, smelly type. :x
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Mike,
Danny has said that the speakers need to be three feet from the wall. Is this to the back of the coaxial driver, or the back of the entire speaker?
How deep, and its deepest point, are the Super Vs?
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Mike,
Danny has said that the speakers need to be three feet from the wall. Is this to the back of the coaxial driver, or the back of the entire speaker?
How deep, and its deepest point, are the Super Vs?
Hey King, I'm 68" from the wall/trap. That's nearly 6ft. What would I gain besides bass which I already have? Maybe mid-bass? :scratch:
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. . . Michael, it looks more to me like King is sizing them up for. . . other purposes. . . :tempted:. . . I might be wrong, though, as King was one of the old guard who moved heaven and earth for his LSs. . .
King, if so, here is the link to Danny's box plans: http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/supervbox.pdf (http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/supervbox.pdf). Should get you in the ballpark. :D
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. . . Michael, it looks more to me like King is sizing them up for. . . other purposes. . . :tempted:. . . I might be wrong, though, as King was one of the old guard who moved heaven and earth for his LSs. . .
King, if so, here is the link to Danny's box plans: http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/supervbox.pdf (http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/supervbox.pdf). Should get you in the ballpark. :D
Ahh, I see, alternative motive's.
Now drag some LS's over hear and we'll have a real audio war :duel:
Neil Young's Chrome Dream II is playing. You just got to hear "Ordinary People" on the V's. :thumb:
Stuck some pillows in the ceiling corners and added a rug at 1st reflection ceiling point. My wife don't get the meaning of "straight" :wtf:
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Now LS9 and Super-V side by side in the same room (that can handle both speakers well) - that would be a cool comparison. Apples to oranges, sure, but cool nonetheless.
I'm rocking out right now to "Darkness" by Disturbed. . . listening to the p-audio coaxials sitting bare on the floor cobbled together hooked up to the wrong (boxed version) crossovers. . . the clarity and detail these drivers can produce really shines through without the box around them - they have a delicacy and separation that, when they were in a box, I could tell "wanted" to come out but just couldn't quite get "there".
I held off after talking to Danny again on pulling the trigger on the rest of the parts. . . What's been going through my head lately regarding building on my system is that I feel like I'm at the edge of a new "cliff". I see the potential of what I've got in front of me. Think about moving "up" to speakers of this caliber, I get this feeling (already) that some of my other associated get won't be (isn't) up to the task so to speak, meaning upgrades. Problem is, to start upgrading the rest of the chain will basically move me up in price points to the "next level" from where I'm at now - kind of going from $$$ to $$$$ in gear.
I guess my problem is I'm not sure right now exactly how far down the rabbit hole I (read: my wallet and I) want to go, as going half-way really isn't worth the stretch. Like each move up I've made in this hobby, if I'm going, I'm going all-in or not at all; any less seems like wasted potential. . .
. . . Just hit the opening guitar riff from "Humans Being" by Van Halen. Did I ever mention how awesome these drivers do amplified guitar? :guitar: :rock:
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. . . Michael, it looks more to me like King is sizing them up for. . . other purposes. . . :tempted:. . . I might be wrong, though, as King was one of the old guard who moved heaven and earth for his LSs. . .
King, if so, here is the link to Danny's box plans: http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/supervbox.pdf (http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/supervbox.pdf). Should get you in the ballpark. :D
Very clever sir...
I am in fact eyeing up a pair of these. The LS-6s I have right now are great, but I am sure I am not truly getting their full effect in my 12x18 room. There just isn't enough space to get them far enough from the walls, and then far enough away from me.
:duh:
I was just wondering if the three feet distance was from the coaxial driver or the back of the servo subs.
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King, check out this post in the x-series kit thread, and read down a few posts to Hal's for probably the best short and sweet explanation of the 3-foot recommendation I've seen posted on AC. Everyone keeps saying "OB speakers, 3 feet or more from the walls", but for the life of me I could never find a clear explanation as to WHY! Thanks again, Danny and Hal!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=89801.msg1069751#msg1069751 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=89801.msg1069751#msg1069751)
Also, check out the pic in Ed's gallery with the diagram of his room. Still, I look on it as the gold standard of getting great sound from the Super-V in a small room:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=5930 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=5930)
After reading Danny and Hal's explanation, I would venture to say the 3 feet is from the front of the servo woofers as a "minimum", but I would probably more confidently/easily guess that from the back of the servo sub cabinet would be best, with more space obviously being better if available.
Just guessing from the cobbled together rig I've got going now, you can definitely run the Super-V more near field than the LS6, so if you can get the distance from the wall, they might just be the trick for your room.
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My Dickware amp didn't arrive this week like we'd hoped. Now that I'm home and have internet, I confirmed that it actually shipped on Tuesday. Gee, what's the hurry? :evil:
This wasn't worth the aggravation no matter how good - or bad it'll sound. Should have bought the Dodd :duh:
I really believe that the Super V's are room friendly even in smaller room than ours which is 12' 11" wide by some 15' deep but open in the back. I actually moved the sitting position (couch) forward to open up the stage a bit but that didn't change the presentation at all we felt. We're still breaking in the caps on the speakers and cables and again, may be dealing with an issue with one of the channels in the amp we have on loan.
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Received the Decware amp today after a very long wait. We are still really uncomfortable with our treatment. That's another thread, another forum.
Having a set of V-Caps newly installed I expected it to sound crappy and it did sort of. It's funny though as I felt still it was playing in a different league against the Onix SP3. To be honest, I didn't even want to like the Decware. To start it was very closed in unless one cranked the volume to let her breathe. But nothing that would make me worry about the synergy. Not at all. We played music for 4 hours. Mostly songs or artists that were tough to listen too on any other amp just to see if this horse has spirit. By the end of the evening she was galloping through the V's. 4 hours is not anywhere near enough to settle this amp in. The tubes installed I payed little attention too other than type. Not the better set I have for sure. It supposedly takes 1000 hours to complete the V-Cap burn. I have the Oppo on repeat and the Allnic muted. Hey, Jr's gotta sleep! :o Magic will appear but tough times ahead. But I gotta say, through the V's, there might be some great magic happening in our living room. :thumb:
Stay tuned
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Burning in those caps will be a roaster coaster ride. Truley tough times ahead. There will be many more hours of enjoyment to make up for the time spent breaking in.
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This pushes my get-to-gether into late April/early May. Good for SoCalWJ with his packed schedule.
Still, it's sounding pretty good as I'm home sick with the flu :(
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This pushes my get-to-gether into late April/early May. Good for SoCalWJ with his packed schedule.
Still, it's sounding pretty good as I'm home sick with the flu :(
Get better fast!
Hope the break in goes quickly for you.
Synergy. I used to kind of snicker when I'd hear that - not anymore. When it all starts coming together, it's the final few things that change it from a great system into a musical system.
Looking forward to hearing more listening impressions as everything gets dialed in. Good luck with room treatments! (Question: How do you know when to stop with regard to room treatments? :scratch: )
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I'm with ya SoCalWJS, synergy? Just but great equipment and it'll all take care itself - NOT.
But I'm hearing it now. The general (Allnic) is taking care of business by NOT imparting a sonic character and keeping things even handed. The Super V's are sounding lush right now. You can crank up "Filter" some great hard rock and just smile. No pain. Music From the Big Pink never sounded so listenable. Sia gained a bunch of weight :argue: Hope she don't mind.
I can tell it's along way from opening up. It sounds like you would think a tube amp should sound, warm and engaging. The nuances are a long way off I'm speculating. Yet with some recordings, Chris Rea "Aburge", we never heard so much detail, so many nuances. Weird. It's like the character changes with the album far more than usual. :scratch:
The V's are sounding sweet these days as the caps settle in. That's a good thing too.
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Sia wants to know how many weight watcher points are being goobled up per listen?
Hope you feel better. It is a good day to curl up around the Allinic. Very theraputic. A little Vodka with fresh squeezed OJ might help too.
Mid May works better for me as well. I'm booked right up until May 7th. Helen and I had a nice listen to Norah Jones last night in the dark. The LS6 pick out alot of detail. She was in the room with us. I can't help but think what the crossover upgrades might do for these. Much less tweaking the room. We are putting a sleeping bag over the big screen when we listen. The middle gets warm and fuzzy. Nice for a rainy evening.
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It was $400 bucks. I might have done it myself with my Iwata L400 HVLP gun but now in California, we can only use water based paints and that's a whole new painting game I'm not participating in. Besides, I would have easily $250 in paint supplies alone! Fogetaboutit :nono:
They look better in person I think. I got half the drivers loaded in the cabinets tonight. The lower servo woofers don't have predrilled holes in the baffle that I noticed. Those are going to be painful to install.
Dont want to hijack but saw this post and wondered if anyone can recommend an non water based brand/line/type of paint for some cabinets. Long story but someone is doing a one off for me as a favor so long as i supply the paint. Looking for a darker blue....Feel free to move this post if its not in a proper thread perspective.
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Sia wants to know how many weight watcher points are being goobled up per listen?
Hope you feel better. It is a good day to curl up around the Allinic. Very theraputic. A little Vodka with fresh squeezed OJ might help too.
Mid May works better for me as well. I'm booked right up until May 7th. Helen and I had a nice listen to Norah Jones last night in the dark. The LS6 pick out alot of detail. She was in the room with us. I can't help but think what the crossover upgrades might do for these. Much less tweaking the room. We are putting a sleeping bag over the big screen when we listen. The middle gets warm and fuzzy. Nice for a rainy evening.
It's not raining anymore and the Super V/Decware combo continue to play when peeps aren't sleeping. And the sound continues to go from spectacular to a bit rough an the very top. I'm at 163 hours. 500 to 1000 hours is a long time to wait for caps breaking in. I don't know who's going to break first. :scratch:
I did the platinum bypass's on my LS's and would have added changed the resistors to Duelends if I stilll had them. I may change the Super V resistors at some point just for S and G.
I'm running but a still have this annoying rattle in my chest. I think the Vodka and OJ might cure what's ailing me, thanks for the advice!
Chris Rea is playing right now. He's in the room but a little rough.