[ricardojoa]

This has turned into an argument more about semantics than anything else. I'm just saying bass goes in all directions in 3 dimensions.  Use whatever term pleases you.

Thats not what i meant to argue, but arguments is just part of discussion. Happends all the time.
But thank you for staying in this discussion, many already left.

[medium jim]

Nah, they're just taking a music break and will be back shortly...

Jim

[medium jim]

I think the issue stems down to the fact that all musical notes have harmonics, half life and decay. Harmonics can and typically are higher than the original note struck and said harmonics are directional and give definition within the soundstage.  As notes ring, they will reach their half life and then decay and this process also includes transients that also can be directional.

With this, it is how you want to hear it at playback in your system.   Many Bass Amplifiers, and I mean for Electric Bass, now have tweeters as it allows for proper rendering of the harmonics and decay of a note.  That said, Bass really is a marriage of bass, midrange and treble all within individual notes.

Since most subs have low pass and high pass filtering, it would be wise to note that bass from the subs is for the most part non-directional, or omnidirectional.  However, most recordings do not record bass in mono and for this reason, I argue that bass needs to be played back in the same, stereo for the weight to be correct.

Jim

[JerryM]

[srb]

 

[poseidonsvoice]

However, most recordings do not record bass in mono and for this reason, I argue that bass needs to be played back in the same, stereo for the weight to be correct.

Jim

Jim,

Lets be specific. Which recordings? I take it you got this info from the recording engineers themselves?

Best,
Anand.

[medium jim]

Arand:

You are kidding me, please tell me you are!  Have you ever been inside of a recording studio?  I have and it is impractical to record in mono, even with pro tools or otherwise.

I will give you an example, The band Jackshit, you can view them on YouTube in the Studio....the lead guitarist is my friend, Val McCallum...the rest of the band should be rather recognizable as they are The Attractions.

Jim

[JohnR]

The fact that you imply that the frequency radiate from a 180 degree arc, tells me that this is a direction to it. From front to back. The frequencies can not radiate from the rear from to the front, right? They will eventually radiate back to front once they finish a cycle, but the source will always star from the woofer itself. My unsdestanding of omni would be, imaging  a sphere as point source with all the pins on it, so much that they will cover the sphere itself and make another layer over with pins. These pins represent the directions.

Hi Ricardo, imagine that you move further and further away from the subwoofer until you can only just see it. Now it looks like a point source, right?

In general, terms like "omnidirectional" are applied to this "far field" concept. In the near field, radiation patterns are different than in the far field, and that seems to be how you are thinking about it.

HTH...

[medium jim]

Here's some JackShit in the studio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbIvoYyzm8k

And here's one of Carl Verheyen's band in the studio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYnqC7R-UZQ

Enjoy,

Jim

[poseidonsvoice]

Arand:

You are kidding me, please tell me you are!  Have you ever been inside of a recording studio?  I have and it is impractical to record in mono, even with pro tools or otherwise.

I will give you an example, The band Jackshit, you can view them on YouTube in the Studio....the lead guitarist is my friend, Val McCallum...the rest of the band should be rather recognizable as they are The Attractions.

Jim

I didn't say that stereo bass recordings didn't exist. I'm disagreeing with you on the 'most' comment.

http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Stereo%20Bass.pdf

Edit: the above link doesn't answer the question on whether bass is always recorded in stereo or not. It just adds some perspective to how we, i.e. as humans perceive bass, localization, etc...and at what frequencies.

Best,
Anand.

[medium jim]

I didn't say that stereo bass recordings didn't exist. I'm disagreeing with you on the 'most' comment.

http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Stereo%20Bass.pdf

Best,
Anand.

Anand:

Just his opinion has nothing to do with how things are actually recorded....every and I mean every recording studio that I have been in in the last 20 years, records multiple tracks and mixes down in Stereo and that includes the bass.  The issue is that if you overdrive the subs, there will be degradation....well just don't overdrive them!

Jim

P.S. To everyone, please take the time to watch the two video's I posted above as if anything, both are amazingly good bands in spite of the fact that they're friends of mine.

[poseidonsvoice]

Anand:

Just his opinion has nothing to do with how things are actually recorded....every and I mean every recording studio that I have been in in the last 20 years, records multiple tracks and mixes down in Stereo and that includes the bass.  The issue is that if you overdrive the subs, there will be degradation....well just don't overdrive them!

Jim

P.S. To everyone, please take the time to watch the two video's I posted above as if anything, both are amazingly good bands in spite of the fact that they're friends of mine.

The link to Tom Nousaines article was not there to confirm or deny how recordings are recorded. Its just an interesting read and adds some perspective to the argument. You are the 1st person who emphatically
and dogmatically is stating that Most recordings record bass in stereo. Others disagree. I would love to know from a recording engineer and not anecdotal reports.

Best,
Anand.

[medium jim]

Anand:

Anecdotal? Actually first hand accounts.  You make some bold statements, please inform us to who says bass is recorded in mono?  Do you mean in only one track?  If you do, this is still in stereo as it will be placed in one of three ways, left channel, center, or right channel. 

There are several comprehensive books on how to record, as well as the history of how all the Beatle Recordings were done, which includes the early years when they did record in mono through the later years in Stereo at Apple to name one book.

Have you ever been in a recording studio or witnessed a live performance recording?

Not sure why it has hit a nerve with you, not my intent.

Jim

P.S.  If you have headphones, or even a smartphone, listen to music that way, devoid of subs and you will see that bass is mostly from the left or right channel.

[poseidonsvoice]

Anand:

Anecdotal? Actually first hand accounts.  You make some bold statements, please inform us to who says bass is recorded in mono?  Do you mean in only one track?  If you do, this is still in stereo as it will be placed in one of three ways, left channel, center, or right channel. 

There are several comprehensive books on how to record, as well as the history of how all the Beatle Recordings were done, which includes the early years when they did record in mono through the later years in Stereo at Apple.

Have you ever been in a recording studio or witnessed a live performance recording?

Not sure why it has hit a nerve with you, not my intent.

Jim

So the first hand accounts are from you I take it? Are you a recording engineer?  Do you have links to these books on how to record, etc...? I have been in a recording studio, but I have not been the fella behind the console doing all the engineering.

I ask questions and you think you've hit a nerve with me I would love to find a link to where engineers such as Bob Katz, Ted Jensen, etc... state that most of the recordings they have engineered have the bass recorded in stereo. I think a simple call to Sterling Sound may answer my question! I'm extremely curious as I have been obviously been informed otherwise.

Best,
Anand.

[sts9fan]

Just because you record in stereo does not mean the information is not the same L to R.

[medium jim]

Anand:

The Beatle book can be found online. By all means, call any studio you like.  Not a recording engineer, but I know several such as Wyn Davis the owner of Total Access Recording Studio in Redondo Beach, CA.

Lets please move on...

Jim

[neekomax]

In my experience, basses get recorded lots of different ways, DI into the soundboard, close mic'd in mono, with a room/ambiance mic added, etc.

That's not really the point, though. No matter the recording method, when it' s mixed it's placed in the mix using panning and delays and whatnot, and the intent is that the bass be somewhere specific in the stereo image.

[medium jim]

Just because you record in stereo does not mean the information is not the same L to R.

It can be if the bass tracks are placed in the center, but much of the time it is either left or right.

Jim

[medium jim]

In my experience, basses get recorded lots of different ways, DI into the soundboard, close mic'd in mono, with a room/ambiance mic added, etc.

That's not really the point, though. No matter the recording method, when it' s mixed it's placed in the mix using panning and delays and whatnot, and the intent is that the bass be somewhere specific in the stereo image.

Well worded...

Jim

[neekomax]

So if you keep the frequencies the subs are producing below, say, 80 Hz, you can get away with subs in mono. Why though? What's the advantage?