AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: budt on 21 Mar 2007, 02:27 am
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I was about to purchase a couple more bryston amps for a pair of Orion active speakers I am building ( almost finished) but I am really having second thoughts based on the new warranty policy. I mean, I will never keep track of a bill for 20 years nor do I want to.Many dealers go out of business so I can't count on getting another copy from the dealer incase mine becomes lost. It is all just a big pain in the ass to keep track of a bill for 20 years.There must be a better way.
How about registering the product within 30 days of purchase or something to that effect? Then bryston can verify if it was bought from an authorized dealer by checking the serial number.Is this not possible?
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I have scanned some of my receipts and save them electronically. I emailed the scanned document to my yahoo and gmail accounts and it will be there for awhile readily accessible anywhere in the world. :wink: This technique also worked for other receipts aswell or some important documents like passports and such.
There has to be a better of way for Bryston's tracking and verifying original customers registered products. Who's responsible it is anyway?
Levi
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It is all just a big pain in the ass to keep track of a bill for 20 years
This hardly seems a good reason not to buy an amplifier. Put the bill in your records drawer and you're done. It doesn't walk away on its own. Don't you keep the deed to your house, your marriage license, etc.
Of course if you decide on a different brand of amplifier you won't have that huge worry, since the warranty will likely be a year at best......
brucek
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Brucek
There are many amps with 5 to 10 year warranties,parasound is 10 years.ATi is 7 etc etc
I did want new bryston amps but at this point I am shopping second hand. I want 2 9b ssts with date code prior to march 2006.This way I don't need to keep track of a receipt.
So if you are in canada and have 1 or 2 9b sst amps with a date code prior to march 2006 please send me a pm.The amps must be atleast 4 channels each.
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I think I noticed an 8bst with 4 channels on Canuck Audio Mart a short while ago.
Good luck.
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It is all just a big pain in the ass to keep track of a bill for 20 years
This hardly seems a good reason not to buy an amplifier. Put the bill in your records drawer and you're done. It doesn't walk away on its own. Don't you keep the deed to your house, your marriage license, etc.
Agreed. If you are up tight like me and keep all the original boxes and packing, you can keep the invoice in the box. Or you can put the invoice in an envelope and tape (blue tape so it doesn't leave a residue) under the amp. IMHO Bryston is being quite fair. They have spoiled us over the years with the transferable no invoice policy. To give you another example, if you got your roof / shingles redone, the shingles will have a say 20 year warranty, did you keep the receipt or packaging so if the shingles start deteriorating you have recourse with the manufacturer? For the record, I forgot to do this <doh>
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Safe-deposit box! :wink:
Should be enough for Bryston stuff and other important documents!
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Hi All,
I agree that some of the new warranty policies are a pain but I just want to point out that they were instituted in an attempted to maintain a strong and viable specialty dealer and customer base.
Without the support of this dealer base and a strong commitment from our customers to support that dealer base eventually the whole thing goes away.
james
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Hi All,
I agree that some of the new warranty policies are a pain but I just want to point out that they were instituted in an attempted to maintain a strong and viable specialty dealer and customer base.
Without the support of this dealer base and a strong commitment from our customers to support that dealer base eventually the whole thing goes away.
james
This is only true if you have a "dealer base" that has the same level of commitment as Bryston has...
Or to put it like I read somewhere:
What is a customer? A customer is the most important person ever in this company - in person or by mail. A customer does not depend on us, we are dependent on him. A customer is not an interruption of our work, he is the purpose of it. We are not doing him a favor by serving him, he is doing us a favor by giving us the opportunity to do so. A customer is not someone to argue or match wits with - nobody ever won an argument with a customer. A customer is a person who brings us his wants - it is our job to handle them profitably to him and ourselves.
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If the reason for the warranty change was because of "Grey Marketers" I just wonder where these individuals get their Bryston equipment from? if approved Bryston dealers are part of this chain I think Bryston should be dealing with them. I own 2 pieces of Bryston equipment that I purchased used, from original owners, simply because I cannot afford the price of new equipment.
My point is that if the supply of product to "Grey Marketers" was stopped then the warranty change should have been unnecessary.
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If the reason for the warranty change was because of "Grey Marketers" I just wonder where these individuals get their Bryston equipment from? if approved Bryston dealers are part of this chain I think Bryston should be dealing with them. I own 2 pieces of Bryston equipment that I purchased used, from original owners, simply because I cannot afford the price of new equipment.
My point is that if the supply of product to "Grey Marketers" was stopped then the warranty change should have been unnecessary.
It likely takes resources to ask questions of sellers on Audiogon or other places about the amps such as manuf. date and serial nos. Once you have information (assuming you're able to get it after effort as people who are not selling as a legit dealer may not give you any or accurate info) you can figure out which dealer Bryston sold the amp to. The decision then needs to be made as to what Bryston will do or not do to the dealer. So it is less resources not to try to trace the problem back to the source and from Bryston's standpoint they don't have to worry about ruining a dealer relationship. For example, what if the amp was stolen from the dealer? What if it was a sales person or relative of the dealer (or the sales person) who told the dealer the amp was for his or her own use? Assuming Bryston can even get the info, do you think they want to piss off a dealer and find out the sales person's older brother or father or whoever was the cause. Yes, I'm sure there are some scam dealers who should not have been signed on by Bryston in the first case but there may be other circumstances such as I noted above that puts Bryston in a difficult position.
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I agree with your comments Phil, Bryston do seem to be taking the easy solution to this problem however, if the problem originates from a dealer then that dealer should be dealt with, if they have sold to a third party, be it family member or other, and that person is reselling then I feel the dealer is the issue.
What we now have is if somebody is unfortunate or careless enough to have lost the receipt they are screwed for warranty, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.
As you commented Bryston should know thru serial # records the history of equipment, if it was originally sold from one of their dealers I don't understand why their warranty conditions needed to change
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I can not believe that Bryston could not keep a record of where the amp/ preamp originated and when. The supposed grey market sellers had to get their products from somewhere. Did they not get built by Bryston? Did Bryston not get paid?
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HI All,
At any given moment there are always a number of dealers who are willing to 2-step products to a non-authorized dealer for a small markup. There are many new dealers around today due to the huge increase in the Custom Install side of the market.
Many times the manufacturer has no 'history' with these dealers and by the time a specific dealer is found to be 2-stepping and selling to a non authorized dealer it’s simply to late to deal with it.
I know it seems like it would be simple to 'police' the dealers but in the real world that is a tough thing to do. I have spoken to many other hi-end manufacturers and they have had to resort to 'no internet sales allowed' and 'first time buyers with bill of sale' requirements for warranty issues.
A further complication is that we have absolutely no control over the dealers in overseas countries. They are the responsibility of our distributors of course but the attitudes are much different. Long-term commitments to customers for these rogue dealers does not exists. We had a situation a year or so ago where 120 volt units were being changed to 240 volt units and resold with serious consequences due to improper design.
Also, in the mix, is the fact that when your authorized dealers go on the internet and see huge numbers of unauthorized internet dealers selling your product or they hear from one of their customers they bought the amp they were considering on-line - they tell you to remove your product from the store.
So it is a tough call as a small manufacturer- how do you keep your authorized committed dealers happy and your customers happy. If you loose the support of your grass-roots dealer base your soon out of business.
Mark my words, if paying the lowest price possible with no regard for either the manufacturer or the dealer base that supports that specialty manufacture continues the specialty dealer and the specialty manufacturer will disappear.
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Thanks for your comments James, I understand your concerns, however, would it not be possible to register the item with Bryston when first purchased to validate the warranty, this record could then be used as the reference for repairs during the 20 years, rather than having to keep track of a receipt.
I fear that the policy you have adopted is going to damage the resale market for Bryston products, neither of the 2 items that I purchased have receipts, to the best of my knowledge I bought them from legitimate original owners, fortunately both have date codes prior to the warranty change. If I was considering a purchase now and knew there would be no warranty because of a missing receipt I think the "edge" Bryston used equipment enjoys would be eroded.
I did not go the used route to screw my local dealer, whom I have dealt with for 25 years, new equipment is simply out of my price range, my dealer knows what I have purchased and the reason why, I still have an excellent relationship with them.
Before I decided on Bryston I read many articles addressing the "best amp. to buy" question, usually a short list of 6 or 8 manufacturers was given in reply, Bryston always included, the big "edge" always noted about Bryston was the warranty 20 years fully transferable, of course that still exists however, I feel your policy change has diminished this advantage.
Regards
Bob
PS. love the pre \ amp
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I agree. Possibly, you could match the S/N to the dealer etc. Ensure they send a copy of the BOS with the warranty card.
Your explanation regarding the controls now make more sense. thanks James.
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Hi,
We considered the "registration" idea but two problems arose.
1.You do in fact have to rely on each and every customer to contact you.
2. In some parts of the world and in many US States it is against the law to force customers to register in order to validate a warranty.
james
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James. Thanks for the explanation. I guess the better your product, the more problems you have.......and you have a good product. We will just have to be more dilligent in keeping our receipts. Looking at the build quality, warranty work in most cases is a moot point.
I don't think any of us want to see the loss of specialty manufacturers. Too much slapped together products out there already. We don't need to lose the few that care about quality over quantity.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
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In my opinion, the best real-world solution that could and should be offered by Bryston is the following:
Have an area of the Bryston website, like PMC and others, where customers may register their purchase if they choose. This would be optional, and not necessary to validate the customer warranty, but by doing so relieves the customer of the responsiblity of holding on to a receipt for 20 years.
If the customer chooses not to use the website registration, then the responsiblity falls solely on the customer to protect their receipt.
I realize that this takes resources on the part of Bryston (maintaining a registry / database; maybe hiring 1-2 additional staff to handle the workload, etc.). I would be more than happy to pay a little more for my next new Bryston piece to support this system. James, please consider this. With all the junk being produced today in the world of stereo, home entertainment, etc., the Bryston 20 year warranty is becoming that much more unusual. I'm guessing that it figures strongly into the decision of many customers to buy a Bryston in the first place - I know it was for me. In my opinion it just makes good business sense and customer care to officially support the 20 year warranty more than just telling people, "save your receipts!". An optional website registry is the way to go.
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thanks
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I have also taken the decision to sell all Bryston gear, based on the warrent and the fact that Bryston has changed the 14B SST (however James Tanner refuses to believe so for some odd reason - maybe he should talk to Chriss Russel about it before posting again).
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James:
If somebody loses their bill of sale or inadvertently buys a piece of gear
from a non-authorized re-seller, will Bryston attempt to repair that
item (manufactured after the cutoff date) if the customer pays for the repairs ?
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Hi jethro,
Losing the bill of sale is not a problem. As long as the customer remembers what store it was purchased from we have a record of which store and which serial number on file at Bryston. We have not discussed how we will handle a non authorized sale at this point when it comes to repair issues. I assume charging for the repair makes sense. Are some manufactures refusing to service the product out-right?
You know maybe going to a straight 5 year warranty no strings attached is a better option given all the controversy around our new policies.
james
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James perhaps a win-win situation since many dealers hate the 20 yr. warranty too (someone can often buy a used item over at Audiogon for less than dealer cost on a new one) is perhaps a 20 yr. warranty from the date of manuf. for a new or used one when purchased from an authorized dealer and a 5 yr. from the date of manuf. otherwise and furnish the dealer selling a used one a warranty certification (by doing the same and keeping a record of the serial nos. of the used one) to give to the customer. If someone wanted to upgrade an amp to Bryston or even another brand, this would encourage them to buy from a Bryston dealer which the dealer would like too. I know people who want to sell them on their own may not like it but 5 yrs. is more of the norm and it would still give someone who has an amp older than that 5 yr. period and not purchased with the 20 yr. warranty the option of going to a Bryston dealer who takes trade-ins and getting the trade-in value for it. This would give the dealer a benefit of being able to work with Bryston to secure a warranty for the balance of the period from Bryston to sell in the dealer's shop. So in summary it probably would make customers who purchase from authorized sources happy, authorized dealers happy and whoever elects to sell either an unauthorized product or someone selling on their own a bit less happy. I know some cos. have a 90 day warranty and if you return the warranty card they make it 5 yrs. So I'm sure Bryston can do something similar.
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Hi phil,
Thanks for the input. I guess my concern is that there seems to be a lot of 'policing' and administration required.
I really felt our new policy was 'fair' to everyone in the chain.
It seems so simple: buy our product from a legitimate source and get the worlds best warranty and state of the art performance.
Live and learn I guess.
james
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James, sorry you got the brunt of abuse. I have no problem with the warranty and understand. I know some other brands offer warranties on used stuff bought thru an authorized dealer. My local Bryston dealer (who I know a while) will often bitch about the fact that a customer can buy something used at slightly above or below his cost and get that long warranty. I've heard that from another dealer as well. I guess no one likes keeping records (customers or manuf.). Personally I don't see what the big deal is for a customer. If you think you might lose the receipt make a copies and staple or tape it to your user manual. With computers and scanners and back-up CDs and DVDs as well as portable hard drives I don't see what the big deal is about keeping the receipt if you value the warranty and what it will save you if a repair is needed you will get value for it. I keep my receipts for big purchases important papers and a video of the home contents in a fire proof file cabinet. I know others who stick that stuff in their safety deposit boxes. I think it is a question of people not liking a change. Most, if not all manuf. won't offer a warranty on goods purchased from non-authorized dealers regardless of what the product is. If it is not worth the time to check out what you're buying, then you should not complain. Would you buy a car without a title? If you buy land and it turns out to be worthless swamp land whose fault is it? If you buy a gray market laser jet printer and the manuf. won't cover it whose fault is that? Whatever you buy, one should be adult enough to take personal responsibility for making a proper purchase and checking out the buyer instead of expecting someone else to bail them out. If you're not comfortable with that the purchase is proper, don't buy from the source. You're buying a luxury item, not a necessity and you can wait until you find a legit source.
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If I worked at bryston and the decision was mine I would do as follows
1) a 20 year warranty to the original owner which would be registered within X amount of days after purchase accompanied by a copy of the original bill of sale.
2) If the product was second hand then a 5 year warranty from date of man...
In this way almost everyone would want to buy a new bryston product
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You can also look at what the current industry policy offers.
1 year limited warranty and only to the original owner.
Bryston's warranty has been very good and fair. All they asked is to keep the receipt or buy from an authorized dealer. What is not fair about that?
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I have owned a large number of Bryston products over the years ( and presently do) and have spokrn to James a number of times. The warranty now in place seems like a reasonable compromise to me ( although, if I understand correctly ,a used Bryston, with all the papers,can only be resold,with warranty, within the country where is was bought so is rather limiting for a small, pop.wise country like Canada).
I ,personally, would strongly prefer the present compromise over a five year warranty UNLESS the following takes place- that is the price, and performance of Bryston products are somewhat compromised by the neccessity of selecting parts etc. partly based on their longevity rather than other factors. If a better performing, less expensive Bryston could be produced by not having to factor in 20 year warranty , a whole new avenue of discussion opens up.
Regardless, I have had nothing but excellent service from both James and the Bryston staff- they are truly a model for any company.
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Hi James:
I was asking about pay as you go repairs on non-bill of sale gear or grey market pieces
because even if you can't get your Bryston gear repaired under warranty, hopefully you can still get it
repaired for a price which would probably be cheaper than buying new. With a lot of other companies
with high product turnover, if you are out of warranty then you have a new fancy door stop.
I like the 20-year warranty because it tells me that if I have an item which is over twenty years old
then I can still probably get it repaired for a cost because it is important to Bryston to make their
gear repairable and not disposable.
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James,
I think your current warranty is fine. If someone can afford to purchase Bryston equipment they can surely afford a safety deposit box at a local bank and store the original receipt in the box. I have no problems with a 20 year warranty with a dated proof of purchase from a local (authorized) dealer. '
Best,
John
P.S. Please keep the current warranty.
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Everybody should get over themselves and quit whining about this warranty issuse. The company implemented this procedure for a good reason. Bryston has been in business for a lot of years and has done their research on how to best implement the warranty. If a person doesn't like the way the warranty is laid out then buy another company's gear. Bryston will continue to be in business and will continue to produce very good affordable products.
BM
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i