comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated

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AllanS

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #60 on: 30 Apr 2023, 10:58 pm »
I have other questions to email Cloud so will ask and post.  He’s likely in the best position to answer anyhow.  The M4 are 90dB, 4 ohm nominal. 

Daryl Zero

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #61 on: 30 Apr 2023, 11:55 pm »
I have other questions to email Cloud so will ask and post.  He’s likely in the best position to answer anyhow.  The M4 are 90dB, 4 ohm nominal.

Please let us know what you find out.

jnschneyer

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #62 on: 1 May 2023, 07:29 pm »
As a Sapphire owner I’m following with some ignoble interest.  Compared to the passive 90dB M4, is there any thought to how much of the Valhalla’s performance is related to the X5 powered woofer and higher efficiency?

I have some experience of this, albeit limited to a couple of listening sessions.  When I first auditioned the Spatials at their shop, the first ones I listen to were X4s, paired first with an LTA Z10 and Benchmark DAC, then with a Valhalla.  The X4s with the LTA were good, really good, but the X4s with the Valhalla were revelatory.  They were so impressive in so many ways, I decided then and there I had to have a pair.  In the end, I went with the X5s, but only because having the plate amp and being 8ohm with 97db sensitivity allowed, in theory, for a wider range of of low-wattage tube amps, and absolutely not because I needed the extra oomph of the X5s powered woofers.  The X4s, at 4ohms and 88db sensitivity, driven by the Valhalla, at 33wpc, lacked nothing in terms of bass, and I listened to some pretty bass-heavy tracks to test it (Flo Rida's The Club Can't Handle Me, Macklemore's Downtown, Tyler, the Creator's Earfquake, etc).  It may be that the X4s would profit from a higher-powered solid state amp, but, for what it's worth, I certainly didn't feel the need for it.  The Valhalla, driving a supposedly difficult load of 4ohms, was more than equal to the task.  Also, just for the record, I tested the Valhalla with my Dynaudio Heritage Specials (which I replaced with my X5s). At 4ohms and 85db sensitivity, the Heritage Specials are reputed to be difficult speakers to drive, and the Valhalla drove them every bit as well as my solid state Classe CT-2300 at 300wpc.  Understanding why is beyond my scope - something about quality vs quantity - but the proof was in the listening.  I guess the short answer to your question is no, in my experience (the invariable caveat to any responsible audio advice), the Valhalla's performance is not determined by the X5s, or any speaker's, use of powered woofers.  Hope that helps.       

Daryl Zero

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #63 on: 1 May 2023, 07:34 pm »
I'm kinda surprised that the LTA Z10 was able to drive the X4s and do really really well since that amp gives off only 13wpc.

jnschneyer

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #64 on: 1 May 2023, 08:54 pm »
I'm kinda surprised that the LTA Z10 was able to drive the X4s and do really really well since that amp gives off only 13wpc.

You know, I may be misremembering as to the specific LTA.  I’m not familiar enough with the various LTA amps to know offhand what the progression is in their lineup respective to power.  Then again, I may be remembering correctly and its comparative lack of power accounts for it being so outshined by the Valhalla.  Sorry.  I should’ve been more precise in my recollection.  Or it could be, despite its being 4ohms and of relatively low sensitivity compared to the X5, that the X4 is nevertheless fairly easy to drive. As with nearly all things Spatial, I bet Cloud would know.

AllanS

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #65 on: 2 May 2023, 01:49 am »
I have some experience of this,   
This is quite helpful.  Thank you. 
If I remember correctly from Mar of last year, when I was considering which model to buy, Clayton mentioned the X4 and M4 share bass section.
I had my 10W Schiit stack (Lyr/Gjallarhorn/Bifrost) running the Sapphires for a few weeks recently while my pre amp/DAC was out for repair.  I listen at pretty low volume (about 65dB ave, peaks in the upper 70s) and I’m only 2m from the speakers in an 11’ x 14’ space.  I’m sure there were details missing but I didn’t feel like the Schiit stack gave up anything in dynamics to the high powered SS main amps. I swapped in a couple of pair of 85dB 8ohm stand mounts that the system ran just fine also, albeit in the Lyr’s high gain setting.  That experience finally convinced me that 20 ish watts is more than enough for my purposes.

AllanS

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #66 on: 2 May 2023, 02:17 am »
Please let us know what you find out.
Cloud had quite a bit to share, which he said is okay to post here.  Specific to my question of Valhalla / M4 compatibility, he mentioned this is his current set up and sounds terrific.  Taken is context of everything that’s been said, that is plenty good enough for me.
 In discussing sound stage and my current dissatisfaction he did caution that the source/dac is equally important.  This is something I need to consider before getting too carried away.

Addition comments:
“ Sub Integration with the Valhalla is great. It doesn’t have line level outs, but high level inputs with a good sub is superior anyway.
Efficiency is no problem, I’m a rocker who constantly listens at 85db and higher and the Valhalla has plenty of juice with great dynamics and slam. 30+ watts goes a long way when you have incredible iron.
Tube life is about 10,000 hours on the front three tubes and 3000 to 5000 hours on the power tubes…
 
I’m obviously biased as I build them. But Dons gear is what got me to appreciate tube gear as it doesn’t have the traditional shortcomings of many other tube gear I’ve tried. Below is a little information on how the Valhalla works and what sets it apart.

The Valhalla is a great integrated.   Don has always been A one-man show being an electrical engineer he would modify different tube amps including citation amps and others. But realized he could create his own amps that outperformed these modded tube amps. That’s now what proliferates Don‘s lineup. And since Don was a one-man show he could keep his overhead very low and use very high end Componentry in his lineup. I’m sure you’ve heard the saying the good sounding tube circuits are known and there isn’t new designs in tubes. That’s 100% correct, which means how you implement and the quality of components is key to creating great sounding tube amps.

As for the Valhalla itself. It’s a KT 66 amp that produces anywhere from 30 to 40 W depending on what tubes are run with it. It also can be run with 6l6, El34, or KT77s. It uses some of the best iron on the market with very high quality toroidal transformers from Poland in both the power and output transformers. The power supply is regulated (very rare) as this increases transparency and accuracy. The amp uses constant and fully auto biasing. This constant biasing system is key as it constantly adjusts the bias of the tubes to make sure they’re always running in their optimal bias range. This is important because as tubes warm up and play large transients their biasing shifts. When tubes become slightly out of bias it creates a distorted wave form in the bass. This is what causes that “sloppy” bass that tube amps are known for. With a Constant biasing system that distorted wave never happens. This lens itself to the best bass I’ve heard on a tube amp and can keep up with great solid-state amps.
The Valhalla uses all octal tubes in the driver section and preamp. These tubes are more expensive and require more power to drive them then smaller tubes like 12au and 6DG8s ect…. But offer less distortion and are more musically engaging then the smaller driver tubes. The 6sn7s are LC coupled with vcap ODAMs. Which allows you to hear the lower distortion and transparency of the 6sn7.
The preamp and volume are controlled by a very high quality 64 step khozmo relay shunt attenuator. This style of attenuator allows there to only be two resistors in the signal path at any given volume (a omron and naked foil). This attenuator is arguably the most accurate and transparent volume control you can buy today.”

Daryl Zero

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #67 on: 2 May 2023, 02:48 pm »
Thanks for the report. The Valhalla really is a great amp and it doesn't surprise me to hear that it would drive the Sapphires or X4s well.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #68 on: 4 May 2023, 12:13 am »
I know you guys have finally confirmed low wattage amps can power the fully passive M and X series Spatials, but I wanted to let you know that I confirmed the same with my own ears.  Last year, I auditioned the X4s at LTA and they were using the ZOTL Ultralinear +, which is 20 watts.  They performed without strain!

Daryl Zero

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #69 on: 4 May 2023, 01:30 am »
I know you guys have finally confirmed low wattage amps can power the fully passive M and X series Spatials, but I wanted to let you know that I confirmed the same with my own ears.  Last year, I auditioned the X4s at LTA and they were using the ZOTL Ultralinear +, which is 20 watts.  They performed without strain!

If you look at this review of the LTA Z40 and the Ultralinear, even though the Z40 has more wpc, the Ultralinear apparently has more oomph as the author compares their effect on the Magnepan 1.7i -- neither was great but the Ultralinear fared a bit better (20 wpc vs about 45 or so for the Z40). This was a review of the pre + version. So it doesn't surprise me that the Ultralinear can push the M and X series Spatials.

https://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0221/Linear_Tube_Audio_Z40_Integrated_Amplifier_Review_ZOTL_Ultralinear.htm

Daryl Zero

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #70 on: 5 May 2023, 02:47 pm »
I had the  LTA REF 40 plus amp with the DS pre and was very happy with that combo with my X5's. Then I talked to the guys at Spatial who have a couple different models of the LTA and some DS equipment also.  From what I hear from them they love playing the Kootenay or Valhalla.  And then Don brought down his new 300b offering to give them a listen and that upped the game even further.  They were so convincing in their description I sold my LTA and bought one of only 2 Don Sachs 300b amps, this one I have with custom wound IT trannies from Cinemag and a couple other tweaks from his original design.  I'm using 4 tungsol nos 6v6 from the 50's.  I have 3 quads of 300b that I swap in and out as I still can't figure out which set I like best.  And a pair of Linlai Elite e6sn7's.  This is definitely the first  piece I've owned that simply puts everything into place, and I've owned a LOT of equipment in my days.  This is the first (and last) truly great amp I've had in my system.  A friend had the integrated LTA 40 and swapped it for a used DS Kootenay and loved it.  Now he longs for a DS 300b but the Kootenay, in his system, and to his ears, simply was a big step up from the LTA.

DS is going to be at the Pacific Audio Fest on June 23 and 24 in Seattle in the Spatial Audio room with his 300b mono blocks and preamp for anyone interested.

abd1

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #71 on: 5 May 2023, 03:55 pm »
Any idea if they available to purchase? I was planning on going to the show but I have a work event that weekend now.

Daryl Zero

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #72 on: 5 May 2023, 06:21 pm »
Why don't you message Don? He posts here and has a post in this thread.

geerock

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #73 on: 12 May 2023, 12:20 am »


Here's a teaser of the new Sachs 300B monos.
These will be at the audio show in Seattle in June.  Can't help but think they will draw huge interest.

Daryl Zero

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #74 on: 12 May 2023, 03:04 am »
I will be there. Friday late afternoon and evening, Saturday and then Sunday morning. Don has said (on another forum) he will be around Friday and Saturday.

mresseguie

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #75 on: 12 May 2023, 08:04 am »
I will be there. Friday late afternoon and evening, Saturday and then Sunday morning. Don has said (on another forum) he will be around Friday and Saturday.

I’ll be at PAF pretty much the same time as you. I’m very keen to listen to these mono 300B amps.

jnschneyer

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #76 on: 12 May 2023, 03:57 pm »


Here's a teaser of the new Sachs 300B monos.
These will be at the audio show in Seattle in June.  Can't help but think they will draw huge interest.

I love my Valhalla, and I hate seeing these pictures.  I do not need these wheels turning in my head.

Daryl Zero

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #77 on: 12 May 2023, 09:30 pm »
I love my Valhalla, and I hate seeing these pictures.  I do not need these wheels turning in my head.

Willpower, grasshopper. Willpower.

jnschneyer

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Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #78 on: 13 May 2023, 12:50 pm »
Willpower, grasshopper. Willpower.

Ha! The spirit is willing, but the flesh, well, you know.

Hear Clifford Brown

Re: comparing Don Sachs integrated with LTA integrated
« Reply #79 on: 13 May 2023, 04:25 pm »
Love my Valhalla as well and looking forward to the hearing the Sachs 300B monos.  Leaving my credit card at home.

Michael I'll see you at PAF probably just Sat. and Sun.  An audiophile friend will be joining me this year.  We will drive up from Tacoma each day.