[TONEPUB]

Personally, I really like the magnepans with a Bryston electronic crossover....

[*Scotty*]

Has Dave posted his measurements of "Gunned" Magneplaners anywhere? I would be interested in seeing any effects on the speakers response in the midrange. A 1meter gated measurement of the speaker windowed to the frequencies between 400Hz and 5000Hz would cover the crossover point and should show any anomalies at the cross-over.
 When I played around with a 1st order series crossover on my SMGs I noticed an apparent lift in the mid-range at the crossover frequency. The only change required to the existing 1st. order parallel cross-over to turn it into a series network is one of topology, the parts values remain the same. The SMGa which replaced the SMG had a series network. The odd part of the network was the addition of a 14ohm 10watt resistor , at least I think that was the value, between the tweeter negative and the woofer positive. I suspect that it altered the response through cross-over point although the speaker still sounded different than the SMG through the mid-range. It would have been interesting to try a larger value of resistor to see what difference it might have made.
Scotty

[Davey]

The SMG's are a somewhat different alignment than the MMG's since the crossover is much closer to "textbook."  A simple conversion from series to parallel or vice-versa is possible and the summed response should be minimally changed.  Neither is the impedance load changed appreciably.

In the case of the MMG it's more tricky since the Magnestand series crossover uses inductor and capacitor values that are completely different than stock.  The Magnestand crossover is much closer to "textbook" than a stock MMG electrical alignment.

It's fairly easy to evaluate (relative) acoustic differences (without making actual acoustic measurements) by comparing the relative electrical differences in various networks.  (As long as you have a baseline listening reference to one version of a crossover alignment.)
However, I didn't do that in this case.......I actually connected my MMG's with the Magnestand component values in a series configuration and listened fairly extensively.

Regarding acoustic measurements.....I have a bunch.  They were taken outdoors (on a warm day about four years ago) in free-field conditions with both alignments.  There was little information that was unexpected since the crossover alignments are completely different and the measurements reflect those differences.  As expected, the Magnestand alignment sounds completely different....I didn't need a measurement to tell me that.  Whether you prefer one or the other is completely subjective.
That portion of the Magnestand modification is easily understood and evaluated.  At the time I was much more interested in the claims of vibration conduction to the wood frames.

This is all water-under-the-bridge a long time ago for me.

Cheers,

Dave.

[*Scotty*]

Is the Magnestand crossover still a first order network?
Scotty

[Rclark]

I absolutely adore the sound of that crossover. It certainly bested the sound of a high profile speaker (actually two crossovers from the same guy), here in my room, I wouldn't go back. Like I said, eventually I will provide, yes, from my room, measurements, and make some nice stereo recordings.

Not just the crossover but all the little tweaks in the mod, reversing the pole piece, and on and on, I love the final sound. It is nothing to kick out of bed, believe me.

[jk@home]

...Whether you prefer one or the other is completely subjective...

I would think the best determination would be for the OP's friend, if possible, to just carry his stock speakers to Pennsylvania, and compare them to what PG has in the house. But as Dave said, that still won't guarantee what the modded speakers will do in another room, although he may get an idea of how they will perform. I look at PG's products as custom pieces of art, so the frames are not only about performance (in case one has a hard time with that claim).

[MGbert]

I own them so I can comment over any speculation. It's true Maggie makes them to a price point and improve with mods...  i think im the only person here with the full mod.

Not quite true.  I also have PG modded MMGs, and since I EQ my system with a DEQ 2496, I also run frequency response tests.  Unfortunately, the format of the DEQ's output does not really lend itself to easy posting here, although there are some on my FRT thread.  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107064.0

If you'll accept a verbal description of the before-and-after effects of the mod: after, the bass energy in the 50-to-80 Hz range was greater, centered on about 63 Hz.  Also, the midrange energy around 630 Hz was gtrater, too, and the high treble >8000 Hz was a bit diminished.  When I used the DEQ to linearize the power response at the listening position in my less-than-ideal listening space, I found that the resulting EQ curve was flatter than stock MMG, indicating that the PG mod helped flatten the response over stock.

Oh, and the other results of the mod were: percussion became a LOT more "real" to the point that the knock at the door on Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb" makes me think someone really IS knocking at my door, and they do rock a LOT more convincingly than in stock form.  Oh yeah, they're physically gorgeous, too.

Anyone interested in auditioning these who can get to central/western Maryland PM me.  Bring along stock MMGs; should be an interesting afternoon!

MGbert

[kevin360]

“I absolutely adore the sound of that crossover.”
That's wonderful. I'm sincerely glad that you love it.   Some of us didn't. It does sound quite different from stock. To me, Magnepan's first generation MMG design sounds better. It's only a matter of personal taste. Please, take no offense. I will say that I thought PG's XO sounded terrific with vocals.

“Like I said, eventually I will provide, yes, from my room, measurements,...”
As Dave mentioned, this will be very useful for you, but will have minimal value for others. It will reveal how the speakers and your room interact. To have meaning, there would have to be a basis for comparison – a measurement of the stock speakers in precisely the same environment. Most of us don't have an anechoic chamber in which to measure the response of our speakers, so the great outdoors is the best place to do it (there's a method to Dave's madness).

“...and make some nice stereo recordings.”
This practice has always confounded me. What, exactly, is the point? How does a recording of your system played through my system tell me how your system sounds? This exercise is rife with problems.

“Not just the crossover but all the little tweaks in the mod, reversing the pole piece, and on and on, I love the final sound.”
I don't wish to be a smart ass, but what else is there beyond the braced wood frames with a different and externalized crossover (in a pretty box) besides the about face of the pole piece? I reversed my panels as well – after experimenting with them in that orientation. I was shocked by the difference when I tried it, not because of how dramatic it was, but because there was precious little change. I guess I learned why Jim Winey referred to the plate of holes to which the magnet strips are glued as acoustically transparent. There are two advantages which drove my decision to leave the panels in that orientation: it puts the more resilient side facing the greater possibility of inadvertent impact and it leaves the Mylar side exposed for easy access should I ever need to repair delaminating wires.

“It is nothing to kick out of bed, believe me.”
Hmm, perhaps Dave wasn't kidding about the orgasm thing.   Seriously, it's great that you're so happy with them. For the record, I think you got your money's worth. The price is actually quite reasonable considering the work that goes into the transformation and the level of craftsmanship of the resultant product. I'm obviously basing that on my own experience transforming mine – took me quite a while to complete and there is evidence of my being an amateur woodworker here and there. Still, it was a fun project and I am as happy with mine as you are with yours (even if yours are prettier).

---

None of the foregoing is intended to be confrontational. If one size fit all, then nobody would ever mod the original product. Magnepan does not take offense to the fact that we tinker with their products. There is no reason why PG or his customers should take offense to the fact the some don't like everything he does.

None of the foregoing was intended as advice against the Magestand mod. I happen to think that it's a valuable product. I just have different ideas about what constitutes an ideal XO alignment - a completely subjective matter.

[medium jim]

The crux of most of these types of threads is the mine is better than yours thing going on.   Why people choose to rain on others parade's is beyond me.  The best system is the one that gives the listener the most enjoyment, not what other people think of it.  The statement that used to grate on me was "You won't know what you are missing unless you try it.", and the other with similar implications.

As a hobby, we should be happy when someone derives great pleasure from their system...at the same time we don't need to chest pump and negate what others have. 

I love my 2.5's as much as anyone can and that includes those who have had theirs modded or modded them themselves.  The Freudian side of me would say that those who chest pump and this and that really are trying to convince themselves!

I guess what I'm saying is that there can only be winners if we all choose to go that road and that is the road I chose to take.

Merry Christmas,

Jim

[kevin360]

Well said, Jim. I hope I didn't come across in that manner - not my intention. My only point is that different folks like different strokes. There's no reason to expect absolute agreement on such matters and nobody is 'right'. Actually, everyone is 'right' - as long as we define right in terms of personal preference. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not live in a world of uniformity. I cherish diversity.

Peace.

[medium jim]

Well said, Jim. I hope I didn't come across in that manner - not my intention. My only point is that different folks like different strokes. There's no reason to expect absolute agreement on such matters and nobody is 'right'. Actually, everyone is 'right' - as long as we define right in terms of personal preference. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not live in a world of uniformity. I cherish diversity.

Peace.

Kevin:

My comments were to everybody and that includes me....I too love the diversity and uniqueness we all bring to the forum.  Time to embrace the differences and not diminish them!   That will be one of my New Years Resolutions and one I intend to keep.

Jim

[Letitroll98]

And Merry Christmas to you guys.  I believe it was this very topic that brought you to AC, so I understand and agree completely with your attitude of to each their own.

Whether Gunned or some other mods, it seems universal that improving the mounting of the driver assembly and working on the crossover/fuse box improves the sound quality.  I've got an idea that you don't need to get rid of the MDF, just mount it better.  e.g. Make a stand that braces the MDF up higher in the frame a la the Mye stands, only including a brace for the whole length of the MDF panel.  I'm also unconvinced changing the crossover design improves anything, more just improve the components of the crossover.

[Davey]

I don't think there was any controversy about whether there are different strokes for different folks....or to each his own....or one person preferring sound A while another prefers sound B....or whatever subjective rationale you adhere to.

The problem (on AA) arose when there were technical claims thrown around with no substantiation.  (Actually, not an uncommon problem, and one that exists here at AC in various Circles as well.)  Couple that with PG's complete inability to entertain a rational discussion of said claims and you have the recipe for a polarizing "debate." 

I could post some of my free-field measurements of my semi-Gunned MMG's, but since they're not "official" Magnestands the results would immediately be labeled as bogus/meaningless.  Silly statements would ensue informing me of how my measurements were flawed in this way or that way.

In answer to studiotechs original question, I believe the answer is "no."  I don't believe measurements (from Magnestand) of either unmodified or modified speakers even exist.  These modifications where not designed using any type of conventional measurement metric/process.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.  There are numerous audio products on the market with similar evolution's.

Cheers,

Dave.

[SteveFord]

All of this MMG talk is really making me look forward to 2013 so I can hear what they've been up to with the new ones.
It's going to be an exciting year.
Happy Holidays, everybody.
P.S.
There is a thing such as too much diversity.  Ever seen my mother-in-law?

[kevin360]

And Merry Christmas to you guys.  I believe it was this very topic that brought you to AC, so I understand and agree completely with your attitude of to each their own.

Whether Gunned or some other mods, it seems universal that improving the mounting of the driver assembly and working on the crossover/fuse box improves the sound quality.  I've got an idea that you don't need to get rid of the MDF, just mount it better.  e.g. Make a stand that braces the MDF up higher in the frame a la the Mye stands, only including a brace for the whole length of the MDF panel.  I'm also unconvinced changing the crossover design improves anything, more just improve the components of the crossover.

My MMGs have been through lots of changes over the years. Being quite cheap, I've had fun tinkering with them. Here's a photo (don't laugh) of my first bracing modification (before painting it).

I replaced the stiles with triangular braces which also formed the sides of a crossover enclosure. I routed a channel into which the edges of the MMGs fit - as the stiles had. My subjective opinion is that these braces certainly benefited the MMGs, but not as much as moving them into hardwood frames did. I have nothing beyond listening evaluations to offer in support of that opinion. Regardless, it was a worthwhile project. More than anything, I was not satisfied with their appearance when this was complete. I also wanted to marry each MMG to a sub and the idea of wood frames had been circulating in my head for some time. The comments from PG and the few who owned his modded speakers at the time convinced me that it would work, so I had a go at it.

From the back, I'm not sure these look much better than my first effort, but they did get a sub under each MMG.


From the front they aren't bad at all, but they certainly won't be mistaken for PG's craftsmanship.

They're in a bedroom now - quite near-field. I still love them - great speakers.

[Rclark]

Not quite true.  I also have PG modded MMGs, and since I EQ my system with a DEQ 2496, I also run frequency response tests.  Unfortunately, the format of the DEQ's output does not really lend itself to easy posting here, although there are some on my FRT thread.  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107064.0

If you'll accept a verbal description of the before-and-after effects of the mod: after, the bass energy in the 50-to-80 Hz range was greater, centered on about 63 Hz.  Also, the midrange energy around 630 Hz was gtrater, too, and the high treble >8000 Hz was a bit diminished.  When I used the DEQ to linearize the power response at the listening position in my less-than-ideal listening space, I found that the resulting EQ curve was flatter than stock MMG, indicating that the PG mod helped flatten the response over stock.

Oh, and the other results of the mod were: percussion became a LOT more "real" to the point that the knock at the door on Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb" makes me think someone really IS knocking at my door, and they do rock a LOT more convincingly than in stock form.  Oh yeah, they're physically gorgeous, too.

Anyone interested in auditioning these who can get to central/western Maryland PM me.  Bring along stock MMGs; should be an interesting afternoon!

MGbert

Excellent post. Your description matches my experience too.

[josh358]

I don't wish to be a smart ass, but what else is there beyond the braced wood frames with a different and externalized crossover (in a pretty box) besides the about face of the pole piece? I reversed my panels as well – after experimenting with them in that orientation. I was shocked by the difference when I tried it, not because of how dramatic it was, but because there was precious little change. I guess I learned why Jim Winey referred to the plate of holes to which the magnet strips are glued as acoustically transparent. There are two advantages which drove my decision to leave the panels in that orientation: it puts the more resilient side facing the greater possibility of inadvertent impact and it leaves the Mylar side exposed for easy access should I ever need to repair delaminating wires.

Jben's mylar front/mylar back measurements show something going wrong from the back, but only in the top octave. Otherwise, they look the same. That's consistent with theory, which says that you'll start to get an interference pattern as the wavelength approaches twice the distance between the holes. To my ears, the sound from the hole side sounds a bit more spacious and diffuse, but there's some "venetian blind" interference.

[SteveFord]

I'm still planning on dragging my wife out there, Mgbert - she's so enthusiastic about stereo gear!

Out of all of the things I've seen done to the MMGs, what Kevin did makes the most sense to me.  He got them up in the air, got some bracing and added the lower end.   

A long time ago I read about someone who suspended them from the ceiling - has anyone here done that? 

[Rclark]

Suspending them from the ceiling sounds like a dumb idea unless you have steel bars or something that can mimick the effect of being coupled to the floor.

Anyway, I just also wanted to say that Peter Gunn not only makes beautiful GORGEOUS SOUNDING audio jewelry, he also answers every single email THAT DAY, and when it comes to turn around time, he means what he says. You aren't waiting around for your speakers.

[Davey]

A long time ago I read about someone who suspended them from the ceiling - has anyone here done that?

Those would be mine.    It's preferable to all other configurations.  Not easily implemented for most folks though since they don't have conveniently exposed joists like I do.

Cheers,

Dave.