NOW WHAT?

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James Tanner

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NOW WHAT?
« on: 8 Jan 2020, 11:16 pm »
Hi Folks,

I am working on an idea for a speaker project and thought I would ask your thoughts.

As you may know Bryston has now developed a number of quality loudspeakers over the past few years. One of the goals when developing the speakers was to advance the PERFORMANCE envelope based on accurate science and research.  The ‘Passive’ Bryston spawned state of the art Wireless speakers which gave way to the Bryston Active speakers and recently the Bryston T-REX Active Speakers.

NOW WHAT?
One of the holy grails that many companies have strived for is to produce a loudspeaker that would radiate its energy (polar response) in 360 degrees equally. Omnidirectional speakers have had a cult following among music lovers ‘in the know’ for years. Why? Because their wide-open 3D soundstage transforms your room into a huge concert venue. Traditionally they have done this at the expense of the pinpoint detail, but can you have both? Maybe an Active speaker that has drivers front and back with the ability to control the front and rear radiation independently using DSP. In other words by using a single (one per channel) Digital Signal Processor (DSP) between the front and rear drivers the speakers could have both a very wide-open 3D soundstage and also pinpoint detail. Each speaker has its own DSP, tightly controlling each 5-driver group to give you unprecedented dynamic range and control.  The DSP included is in a stand-alone case that sits between your preamplifier or receiver and the amplifiers.

In order to get optimal integration between the front and rear drivers each set of drivers needs to have a very unique set of amplitude response curves. This isn't possible to do with a passive network, so you would employ the power of a DSP to ensure we end up with the desired family of curves measured all the way around the speaker. This ensures complete control over the midrange fidelity of the omnidirectional speaker, and keeps it from suffering from a lack of image focus or spectral neutrality which is so often a problem with omnidirectional designs. The DSP tailors phase response between the front and back sections, as well as the amplitude response characteristics.

If you haven't guessed already, it takes some serious amplification to drive these speakers! A total of 10 amp channels of amplification, in fact: 5 channels per speaker; front HF, front MF, front LF, rear HF, and rear MF all need to be powered separately.

LISTENING WINDOW and SOUND POWER:
In a loudspeaker the ‘listening window’ is an average of a front set of curves whereas the ‘sound power response’ is an average of all the curves right around the whole speaker.  What we actually hear seems heavily weighted to be a balance between these two conditions.  What you see in the attached graph is how we are able to keep the Listening Window and Sound Power coherent with each other.



Folks, so many times we as audiophiles just move sideways … let’s try this amp or this speaker or this cable etc., all in an attempt to increase the performance of our systems. Passive systems are excellent for what they are and Active systems take the performance a step forward again and Active Omni could take the performance up a significant notch further?

I know the complexity of such a system appears daunting but if you are truly after what the current State-Of-The-Art can supply Bryston Active Omni might fit that goal to a “T”

james
« Last Edit: 13 Mar 2020, 06:48 pm by James Tanner »

Mag

Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #1 on: 9 Jan 2020, 01:57 am »
This may also have a gaming application. Not for the average home but perhaps a new recreational business with immersive sound affects. And correct me if I'm wrong, modular television screens introduced last year at CES.

So you could have a walled TV along with 360 degrees of sound, who knows?

MauriceMinor

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #2 on: 9 Jan 2020, 04:25 am »
My quest ended here: www.linkwitzlab.com and a BDP-1

Raimo

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #3 on: 9 Jan 2020, 09:10 am »
The problem for me in these kind of solutions is that the speakers create a sound field and you get a sameness from all recordings.
I want to hear what is recorded and be transported to the recording session, that is the thrill for me :D.
It can sound fantastic otherwise but it is not the recorded session.

James Tanner

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #4 on: 9 Jan 2020, 12:33 pm »
The problem for me in these kind of solutions is that the speakers create a sound field and you get a sameness from all recordings.
I want to hear what is recorded and be transported to the recording session, that is the thrill for me :D.
It can sound fantastic otherwise but it is not the recorded session.

Hi

Interesting - so do you think the recording session is a mirror of what a direct radiating loudspeaker would produce in a listening room?

james

CanadianMaestro

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #5 on: 9 Jan 2020, 02:13 pm »
Hi

Interesting - so do you think the recording session is a mirror of what a direct radiating loudspeaker would produce in a listening room?

james

Unlikely imho. I haven't heard a DRL yet (!), but each listening room is unique, so the SQ will differ in each room. The novelty, however, seems appealing, esp for home theatre imho.

I will stick with 2-ch stereo for now.  :D

redbook

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #6 on: 9 Jan 2020, 02:19 pm »
Unlikely imho. I haven't heard a DRL yet (!), but each listening room is unique, so the SQ will differ in each room. The novelty, however, seems appealing, esp for home theatre imho.

I will stick with 2-ch stereo for now.  :D.... Likewise :thumb:

James Tanner

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #7 on: 9 Jan 2020, 02:50 pm »
Hi Folks,

But that's the whole point of an adjustable Omni - you can tune the polar pattern to the room acoustics.

james

CanadianMaestro

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #8 on: 9 Jan 2020, 03:57 pm »
Hi Folks,

But that's the whole point of an adjustable Omni - you can tune the polar pattern to the room acoustics.

james

But how do you get the Omni to mimic the recording session's geometrics and sound profile? I want to hear the recording as close as possible to the original. Or is that more a function of the amps and sources?

James Tanner

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #9 on: 9 Jan 2020, 04:34 pm »
"The number one disadvantage of omnidirectional speakers is also the root of their greatest attribute.

Omnidirectional dispersion maximally interacts with the room. Room interaction and the subsequent reflections are the source of peaks and nulls in listening position frequency response, and time delayed sound which can be viewed as a form of distortion; that which does not exist in the original recording is distortion. How do conventional direct radiating speakers differ from omnis in this regard? As mentioned elsewhere in this site, direct radiators are omnidirectional below a few hundred hertz and become progressively more directional with increasing frequency. Obviously, direct radiators maximally interact with the room only in the lower part of their bandwidth, then progressively less in the upper registers. Yet, the most detrimental interactions are in the lower frequencies where room modes create strong peaks and deep nulls. In the upper mid and high frequencies summing and canceling level out. This is true with any dispersion pattern. But with direct radiators, the time delayed reflections of higher frequencies are reduced due to the narrowing dispersion. So shouldn't this be a good thing? Not really. It leaves most of the reverberant field low passed and lacking in treble energy, i.e., a distorted reverberant field.

The consequence of a low passed soundfield is a more boxy, stuffy, out of balance sound and a diminished perception of the ambience in a recording. Omnis avoid this by delivering full spectrum sound to the whole room, evenly dispersing the entire audible bandwidth and maximally interacting with the room. There is no way around room related issues except an anechoic chamber."

James Tanner

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #10 on: 9 Jan 2020, 07:49 pm »
But how do you get the Omni to mimic the recording session's geometrics and sound profile? I want to hear the recording as close as possible to the original. Or is that more a function of the amps and sources?

Hi

The only way to mimic the recording session would be to use the exact speakers they used in the recording studio since they tend use speakers of dubious accuracy; neither omni nor front-firing will fix this problem.  It is what Floyd coined the Circle-of-Confusion and why he has been trying to get recording engineers to use accurate speakers (ones with an accurate family-of-curves whether front-firing or omni), which unfortunately they generally don’t.

The omni technology does not create a different sound from an accurate front-firing speaker but it does allow us to create a more accurate family-of-curves because we have more control over them in the design phase.  So you could think of them as a super accurate version of a front-firing speaker. 

servingko

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #11 on: 9 Jan 2020, 08:59 pm »
So building on the proven LFR1100 concept?

Raimo

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #12 on: 9 Jan 2020, 09:13 pm »
Hi

Interesting - so do you think the recording session is a mirror of what a direct radiating loudspeaker would produce in a listening room?

james
Yes i think so, the speaker should be made with the interaktion of the room in mind but insted of firing in all direktions the room must be made to interakt with the speaker too (this is not easy in a ordinery living room).
The floor must have carpets and the backwall must be damped, the sidewalls should have dampening and reflektions depending of the room size.
I dont want to add my room to the room in the recording.
It is a little like to try to look at a lamp in a room full of mirrors, it is hard to say witch lamp is the real one due to all the reflections in the room.
I want to cancel the reflections so i can see the real lamp.
This is my way of looking at it but someone else may have other ideas.
Maybe some people want the orchestra in their living room (as i think it will be with the omni speakers), i want to be in the orchestras room.
No wrong or right, only different ways of enjoing your music.

James Tanner

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #13 on: 9 Jan 2020, 09:20 pm »
So building on the proven LFR1100 concept?

Hi

I have yet to hear those but similar idea but fully active and based on the Model T.

james

Elizabeth

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #14 on: 9 Jan 2020, 09:20 pm »
If you used CHEAP DSP electronics, I suppose the sound would get homogenized.
With better quality components, the differences in recordings is made clearer. not glossed over into some pulp/
So I wuld say the fear of it is due to the earlier receiver sort of DSP. The FACT that the DSP here woud be custom made for the speakers they are for... Makes a lot of difference.
I'll stick to my Maggies, but it all reads as interesting.

James Tanner

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #15 on: 9 Jan 2020, 09:24 pm »
Yes i think so, the speaker should be made with the interaktion of the room in mind but insted of firing in all direktions the room must be made to interakt with the speaker too (this is not easy in a ordinery living room).
The floor must have carpets and the backwall must be damped, the sidewalls should have dampening and reflektions depending of the room size.
I dont want to add my room to the room in the recording.
It is a little like to try to look at a lamp in a room full of mirrors, it is hard to say witch lamp is the real one due to all the reflections in the room.
I want to cancel the reflections so i can see the real lamp.
This is my way of looking at it but someone else may have other ideas.
Maybe some people want the orchestra in their living room (as i think it will be with the omni speakers), i want to be in the orchestras room.
No wrong or right, only different ways of enjoing your music.

Hi Raimo

A lot of research has been done on the direct to reflected energy in a room and my personal findings agree with the research.  You do not want to absorb the reflections in a room as long as those reflections have the same frequency response as the on axis response. I have somewhere an explanation of why this is the case - I will try and find it.

james

Raimo

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #16 on: 10 Jan 2020, 09:16 am »
Hi Raimo

A lot of research has been done on the direct to reflected energy in a room and my personal findings agree with the research.  You do not want to absorb the reflections in a room as long as those reflections have the same frequency response as the on axis response. I have somewhere an explanation of why this is the case - I will try and find it.

james
Yes there must be reflektions in the room, it is a mix of dampening and reflektions in the right places.
Every room is different so there are no one fits all solution.

Blueshound

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #17 on: 10 Jan 2020, 05:04 pm »
Hi James (and Happy New Year!);

I for one would be very curious to hear what could be accomplished.  Whoever said that direct radiators were the most perfect translator of (well) recorded sound?  (LOL . . .  I got rid of my library of AES journals a very long time ago . . . ).

Unless you're out in an open field, or in an anechoic chamber, indirect sound is a fact of life.  So perhaps merit to superior management of the non-direct soundfield?

IMO, it would be important to retain, and if possible improve upon, the very good dynamics and dynamic contrasts of the current active Model T etc. systems. On occasions when I've had guests in to hear my system, the dynamics is what is most commented on.

Regards,
Brian


James Tanner

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #18 on: 10 Jan 2020, 05:11 pm »
Hi James (and Happy New Year!);

I for one would be very curious to hear what could be accomplished.  Whoever said that direct radiators were the most perfect translator of (well) recorded sound?  (LOL . . .  I got rid of my library of AES journals a very long time ago . . . ).

Unless you're out in an open field, or in an anechoic chamber, indirect sound is a fact of life.  So perhaps merit to superior management of the non-direct soundfield?

IMO, it would be important to retain, and if possible improve upon, the very good dynamics and dynamic contrasts of the current active Model T etc. systems. On occasions when I've had guests in to hear my system, the dynamics is what is most commented on.

Regards,
Brian

Hi Brian

Yes I agree - once you hear a speaker that has the capability of real world dynamics it becomes quite obvious that dynamics with low distortion goes a long way to recreating real world sound quality.  I am going to test the A1 speaker as an OMNI first and if that plays out I will work on a Model T version.

I need a name for this new speaker - maybe Model TOMI  ... (e)?

james

Elizabeth

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Re: NOW WHAT?
« Reply #19 on: 10 Jan 2020, 05:41 pm »
Tomi is the name of a Japanese teenage girl horror movies series.. Where Tomi seems to die, yet never dies, and terrorizes the previous friends endlessly. It is fun in a Japanese sort of horror comedy way. Particularly the ways the friends slowly realize yes that girl they see who looks like Tomi.. well yeah she IS Tomi....