AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: James Tanner on 8 Jan 2020, 11:16 pm
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Hi Folks,
I am working on an idea for a speaker project and thought I would ask your thoughts.
As you may know Bryston has now developed a number of quality loudspeakers over the past few years. One of the goals when developing the speakers was to advance the PERFORMANCE envelope based on accurate science and research. The ‘Passive’ Bryston spawned state of the art Wireless speakers which gave way to the Bryston Active speakers and recently the Bryston T-REX Active Speakers.
NOW WHAT?
One of the holy grails that many companies have strived for is to produce a loudspeaker that would radiate its energy (polar response) in 360 degrees equally. Omnidirectional speakers have had a cult following among music lovers ‘in the know’ for years. Why? Because their wide-open 3D soundstage transforms your room into a huge concert venue. Traditionally they have done this at the expense of the pinpoint detail, but can you have both? Maybe an Active speaker that has drivers front and back with the ability to control the front and rear radiation independently using DSP. In other words by using a single (one per channel) Digital Signal Processor (DSP) between the front and rear drivers the speakers could have both a very wide-open 3D soundstage and also pinpoint detail. Each speaker has its own DSP, tightly controlling each 5-driver group to give you unprecedented dynamic range and control. The DSP included is in a stand-alone case that sits between your preamplifier or receiver and the amplifiers.
In order to get optimal integration between the front and rear drivers each set of drivers needs to have a very unique set of amplitude response curves. This isn't possible to do with a passive network, so you would employ the power of a DSP to ensure we end up with the desired family of curves measured all the way around the speaker. This ensures complete control over the midrange fidelity of the omnidirectional speaker, and keeps it from suffering from a lack of image focus or spectral neutrality which is so often a problem with omnidirectional designs. The DSP tailors phase response between the front and back sections, as well as the amplitude response characteristics.
If you haven't guessed already, it takes some serious amplification to drive these speakers! A total of 10 amp channels of amplification, in fact: 5 channels per speaker; front HF, front MF, front LF, rear HF, and rear MF all need to be powered separately.
LISTENING WINDOW and SOUND POWER:
In a loudspeaker the ‘listening window’ is an average of a front set of curves whereas the ‘sound power response’ is an average of all the curves right around the whole speaker. What we actually hear seems heavily weighted to be a balance between these two conditions. What you see in the attached graph is how we are able to keep the Listening Window and Sound Power coherent with each other.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203074)
Folks, so many times we as audiophiles just move sideways … let’s try this amp or this speaker or this cable etc., all in an attempt to increase the performance of our systems. Passive systems are excellent for what they are and Active systems take the performance a step forward again and Active Omni could take the performance up a significant notch further?
I know the complexity of such a system appears daunting but if you are truly after what the current State-Of-The-Art can supply Bryston Active Omni might fit that goal to a “T”
james
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This may also have a gaming application. Not for the average home but perhaps a new recreational business with immersive sound affects. And correct me if I'm wrong, modular television screens introduced last year at CES.
So you could have a walled TV along with 360 degrees of sound, who knows?
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My quest ended here: www.linkwitzlab.com and a BDP-1
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The problem for me in these kind of solutions is that the speakers create a sound field and you get a sameness from all recordings.
I want to hear what is recorded and be transported to the recording session, that is the thrill for me :D.
It can sound fantastic otherwise but it is not the recorded session.
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The problem for me in these kind of solutions is that the speakers create a sound field and you get a sameness from all recordings.
I want to hear what is recorded and be transported to the recording session, that is the thrill for me :D.
It can sound fantastic otherwise but it is not the recorded session.
Hi
Interesting - so do you think the recording session is a mirror of what a direct radiating loudspeaker would produce in a listening room?
james
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Hi
Interesting - so do you think the recording session is a mirror of what a direct radiating loudspeaker would produce in a listening room?
james
Unlikely imho. I haven't heard a DRL yet (!), but each listening room is unique, so the SQ will differ in each room. The novelty, however, seems appealing, esp for home theatre imho.
I will stick with 2-ch stereo for now. :D
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Unlikely imho. I haven't heard a DRL yet (!), but each listening room is unique, so the SQ will differ in each room. The novelty, however, seems appealing, esp for home theatre imho.
I will stick with 2-ch stereo for now. :D.... Likewise :thumb:
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Hi Folks,
But that's the whole point of an adjustable Omni - you can tune the polar pattern to the room acoustics.
james
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Hi Folks,
But that's the whole point of an adjustable Omni - you can tune the polar pattern to the room acoustics.
james
But how do you get the Omni to mimic the recording session's geometrics and sound profile? I want to hear the recording as close as possible to the original. Or is that more a function of the amps and sources?
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"The number one disadvantage of omnidirectional speakers is also the root of their greatest attribute.
Omnidirectional dispersion maximally interacts with the room. Room interaction and the subsequent reflections are the source of peaks and nulls in listening position frequency response, and time delayed sound which can be viewed as a form of distortion; that which does not exist in the original recording is distortion. How do conventional direct radiating speakers differ from omnis in this regard? As mentioned elsewhere in this site, direct radiators are omnidirectional below a few hundred hertz and become progressively more directional with increasing frequency. Obviously, direct radiators maximally interact with the room only in the lower part of their bandwidth, then progressively less in the upper registers. Yet, the most detrimental interactions are in the lower frequencies where room modes create strong peaks and deep nulls. In the upper mid and high frequencies summing and canceling level out. This is true with any dispersion pattern. But with direct radiators, the time delayed reflections of higher frequencies are reduced due to the narrowing dispersion. So shouldn't this be a good thing? Not really. It leaves most of the reverberant field low passed and lacking in treble energy, i.e., a distorted reverberant field.
The consequence of a low passed soundfield is a more boxy, stuffy, out of balance sound and a diminished perception of the ambience in a recording. Omnis avoid this by delivering full spectrum sound to the whole room, evenly dispersing the entire audible bandwidth and maximally interacting with the room. There is no way around room related issues except an anechoic chamber."
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But how do you get the Omni to mimic the recording session's geometrics and sound profile? I want to hear the recording as close as possible to the original. Or is that more a function of the amps and sources?
Hi
The only way to mimic the recording session would be to use the exact speakers they used in the recording studio since they tend use speakers of dubious accuracy; neither omni nor front-firing will fix this problem. It is what Floyd coined the Circle-of-Confusion and why he has been trying to get recording engineers to use accurate speakers (ones with an accurate family-of-curves whether front-firing or omni), which unfortunately they generally don’t.
The omni technology does not create a different sound from an accurate front-firing speaker but it does allow us to create a more accurate family-of-curves because we have more control over them in the design phase. So you could think of them as a super accurate version of a front-firing speaker.
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So building on the proven LFR1100 concept?
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Hi
Interesting - so do you think the recording session is a mirror of what a direct radiating loudspeaker would produce in a listening room?
james
Yes i think so, the speaker should be made with the interaktion of the room in mind but insted of firing in all direktions the room must be made to interakt with the speaker too (this is not easy in a ordinery living room).
The floor must have carpets and the backwall must be damped, the sidewalls should have dampening and reflektions depending of the room size.
I dont want to add my room to the room in the recording.
It is a little like to try to look at a lamp in a room full of mirrors, it is hard to say witch lamp is the real one due to all the reflections in the room.
I want to cancel the reflections so i can see the real lamp.
This is my way of looking at it but someone else may have other ideas.
Maybe some people want the orchestra in their living room (as i think it will be with the omni speakers), i want to be in the orchestras room.
No wrong or right, only different ways of enjoing your music.
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So building on the proven LFR1100 concept?
Hi
I have yet to hear those but similar idea but fully active and based on the Model T.
james
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If you used CHEAP DSP electronics, I suppose the sound would get homogenized.
With better quality components, the differences in recordings is made clearer. not glossed over into some pulp/
So I wuld say the fear of it is due to the earlier receiver sort of DSP. The FACT that the DSP here woud be custom made for the speakers they are for... Makes a lot of difference.
I'll stick to my Maggies, but it all reads as interesting.
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Yes i think so, the speaker should be made with the interaktion of the room in mind but insted of firing in all direktions the room must be made to interakt with the speaker too (this is not easy in a ordinery living room).
The floor must have carpets and the backwall must be damped, the sidewalls should have dampening and reflektions depending of the room size.
I dont want to add my room to the room in the recording.
It is a little like to try to look at a lamp in a room full of mirrors, it is hard to say witch lamp is the real one due to all the reflections in the room.
I want to cancel the reflections so i can see the real lamp.
This is my way of looking at it but someone else may have other ideas.
Maybe some people want the orchestra in their living room (as i think it will be with the omni speakers), i want to be in the orchestras room.
No wrong or right, only different ways of enjoing your music.
Hi Raimo
A lot of research has been done on the direct to reflected energy in a room and my personal findings agree with the research. You do not want to absorb the reflections in a room as long as those reflections have the same frequency response as the on axis response. I have somewhere an explanation of why this is the case - I will try and find it.
james
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Hi Raimo
A lot of research has been done on the direct to reflected energy in a room and my personal findings agree with the research. You do not want to absorb the reflections in a room as long as those reflections have the same frequency response as the on axis response. I have somewhere an explanation of why this is the case - I will try and find it.
james
Yes there must be reflektions in the room, it is a mix of dampening and reflektions in the right places.
Every room is different so there are no one fits all solution.
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Hi James (and Happy New Year!);
I for one would be very curious to hear what could be accomplished. Whoever said that direct radiators were the most perfect translator of (well) recorded sound? (LOL . . . I got rid of my library of AES journals a very long time ago . . . ).
Unless you're out in an open field, or in an anechoic chamber, indirect sound is a fact of life. So perhaps merit to superior management of the non-direct soundfield?
IMO, it would be important to retain, and if possible improve upon, the very good dynamics and dynamic contrasts of the current active Model T etc. systems. On occasions when I've had guests in to hear my system, the dynamics is what is most commented on.
Regards,
Brian
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Hi James (and Happy New Year!);
I for one would be very curious to hear what could be accomplished. Whoever said that direct radiators were the most perfect translator of (well) recorded sound? (LOL . . . I got rid of my library of AES journals a very long time ago . . . ).
Unless you're out in an open field, or in an anechoic chamber, indirect sound is a fact of life. So perhaps merit to superior management of the non-direct soundfield?
IMO, it would be important to retain, and if possible improve upon, the very good dynamics and dynamic contrasts of the current active Model T etc. systems. On occasions when I've had guests in to hear my system, the dynamics is what is most commented on.
Regards,
Brian
Hi Brian
Yes I agree - once you hear a speaker that has the capability of real world dynamics it becomes quite obvious that dynamics with low distortion goes a long way to recreating real world sound quality. I am going to test the A1 speaker as an OMNI first and if that plays out I will work on a Model T version.
I need a name for this new speaker - maybe Model TOMI ... (e)?
james
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Tomi is the name of a Japanese teenage girl horror movies series.. Where Tomi seems to die, yet never dies, and terrorizes the previous friends endlessly. It is fun in a Japanese sort of horror comedy way. Particularly the ways the friends slowly realize yes that girl they see who looks like Tomi.. well yeah she IS Tomi....
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Tomi is the name of a Japanese teenage girl horror movies series.. Where Tomi seems to die, yet never dies, and terrorizes the previous friends endlessly. It is fun in a Japanese sort of horror comedy way. Particularly the ways the friends slowly realize yes that girl they see who looks like Tomi.. well yeah she IS Tomi....
Thanks Liz ... I guess that’s out :duh:
Maybe Model T - TOM
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James
I think the T-Omi is a great idea!! Couple q's:
1. would you consider an option for class D, or other types of amplification housed internally within the speaker itself? otherwise, 10 channels of external amps eats of lot of budget and rack space..
2. does the ADC/DAC process affect the quality of the original DAC process that flows out of the preamp? or would it maintain the same sonic qualities of the original D>A conversion?
3. any thoughts to using ribbon tweeters? :)
cool to learn there's yet another Bryston speaker project in the design phase! keep rocking!
TJ
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James
I think the T-Omi is a great idea!! Couple q's:
1. would you consider an option for class D, or other types of amplification housed internally within the speaker itself? otherwise, 10 channels of external amps eats of lot of budget and rack space..
2. does the ADC/DAC process affect the quality of the original DAC process that flows out of the preamp? or would it maintain the same sonic qualities of the original D>A conversion?
3. any thoughts to using ribbon tweeters? :)
cool to learn there's yet another Bryston speaker project in the design phase! keep rocking!
TJ
Hi TJ
1. I think we would try to develop compacked external 5 channel amplifiers with maybe dedicated power to each set of drivers - like in the 21B. Internal would be difficult as the weight might be an issue.
2. The DAC would be in the BAX-1
3. No .. ribbons are great for horizontal dispersion but lack any vertical dispersion.
james
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How about Bryston Model TOD - for Model T (Omni ... Directional)
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A speaker that will radiate in 360 degrees is a goods idea and there is already a niche for it. Amazon just launched Dolby Atmos music. The problem is that they support it with an "Echo" speaker that radiates in 360. I don't know if Bryston customers would want atmos music but maybe you could find customers that do want atmos music service but would cringe at the idea of listening through an echo speaker:
https://www.amazon.com/Echo-Studio/dp/B07G9Y3ZMC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?keywords=amazon+echo+studio&qid=1574204549&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFJMEJaVUNMN0dVWFkmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAyNTkwMzMyVTE2OUtBOThOWUpUJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAyNjQzNjgxTDc2M1RZVFdXS1M1JndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==&linkCode=sl1&tag=audioholics-20&linkId=80992afbc41c45b7433e85f55e571911&language=en_US
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Here is more info on the atmos music service:
https://www.audioholics.com/news/dolby-atmos-music
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How about Bryston Model TOD - for Model T (Omni ... Directional)
I like TOD-zilla. 8)
In German, TOD = death. Just sayin'. :cry:
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Hi Brian
Yes I agree - once you hear a speaker that has the capability of real world dynamics it becomes quite obvious that dynamics with low distortion goes a long way to recreating real world sound quality. I am going to test the A1 speaker as an OMNI first and if that plays out I will work on a Model T version.
I need a name for this new speaker - maybe Model TOMI ... (e)?
james
Model T MD (multi-dimensional)
Model T MDA (multi dimensional array)
Or multi-dimensional active
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I like the audacity of imagining something different. I agree with the idea that most drivers and box designs refine the state of the art to give us incremental rather than revolutionary improvement. Yes some speakers sound better than others (and the Bryston actives are among the best I've heard) but I never heard a set-up that made me to think I could not distinguish a reproduction from a real life sound. If a new way of skinning the cat can close that gap, I'm game to give them a listen. Go for it.
Patrick
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The guy i buy my speakers from (INO audio in Sweden)( it was he who made the Swedish test of the 14B SST) is working with a speaker with back firing sound.
Looks like this:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203143)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203144)
The back speaker is a 10" Woofer and a Tweeter.
The front Woofer is delayed the same amount as the distance between the front and back Woofer so they play in sync towards the listening position.
The back Woofer plays up to 300Hz and is non adjustable.
the tweeter comes in softly from 4000Hz and gets stronger all the way up to 20000Hz and is adjustable all the way down to off position.
All depending of the room and distance to the back wall.
The upward firing back speakers are very important.
He does not want any midrange in the back, he has worked on this project for decades and this is his solution.
I am not an expert but try to explain as good as i can from the thread in a Swedish forum.
Here is the complete thread for those who understand Swedish :D.
https://www.faktiskt.io/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=66195
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Interesting - thanks Raimo.
james
PS - What is is reason for eliminating the MIDS on the rear?
My guess is he is not trying to bring up the entire Sound Power curve, only even the bass in the room and get rid of the drop-off at very high frequencies in the Sound Power. A number of companies have tried this with tweeters on the rear.
It is a different design goal from what we are doing.
james
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Interesting - thanks Raimo.
james
PS - What is is reason for eliminating the MIDS on the rear?
My guess is he is not trying to bring up the entire Sound Power curve, only even the bass in the room and get rid of the drop-off at very high frequencies in the Sound Power. A number of companies have tried this with tweeters on the rear.
It is a different design goal from what we are doing.
james
As i understand it he thinks that reflections in the mids are destructive. I dont know about the things you mentioned, you may be right.
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Good morning,
This is why I love Bryston. Very interesting concept for you to conceive. Will this primarily be a DSP module encasement using existing speaker models or will it also include a new model speaker, such as mbl? Also, before you retire, they do have cloning capabilities so have them look into it before you decide to leave...in 2050 😊
Thanks and look forward to your reply.
Robert Meeks
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Good morning,
This is why I love Bryston. Very interesting concept for you to conceive. Will this primarily be a DSP module encasement using existing speaker models or will it also include a new model speaker, such as mbl? Also, before you retire, they do have cloning capabilities so have them look into it before you decide to leave...in 2050 😊
Thanks and look forward to your reply.
Robert Meeks
Hi Robert
A version of the Model T I think with rear drivers and using a BAX1 to control the drivers through a GUI.
james
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How about an open baffle/dipole system? If you want sound to fill the room open baffle is a great way to go.
Daudio (http://Http://www.daudio.nl/) is doing really interesting things with open systems, usually ending at the top 3 for sound quality at european audio shows.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203144)
The sharp edge right underneath the tweeter *will* be audible. That part of the baffle should be flush to the mid.
They do look good though...
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You could look at the old Design Acoustics D-12 speakers from the early 70's. They were dodecahedron with downfiring woofer, top firing midrange, and 9 tweeters and a port on the other surfaces. I had a pair for 35 years and they were very convincing of large orchestral music.
(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/202317651382_/Pair-of-Vintage-Design-Acoustics-D-12-Dodecahedron-Omni.jpg)
'
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How about an open baffle/dipole system? If you want sound to fill the room open baffle is a great way to go.
Daudio (http://Http://www.daudio.nl/) is doing really interesting things with open systems, usually ending at the top 3 for sound quality at european audio shows.
Hi
The issue with a dipole is there is no polar energy at the sides of the speakers due to the cancellation of the dipole design.
Thats why we decided on a Bipole as we can distribute the energy equally around the whole speaker 360 degrees. With a dipole you also have low bass cancellation due to the out of phase info from the rear wave cancelling the front in-phase wave.
james
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You could look at the old Design Acoustics D-12 speakers from the early 70's. They were dodecahedron with downfiring woofer, top firing midrange, and 9 tweeters and a port on the other surfaces. I had a pair for 35 years and they were very convincing of large orchestral music.
(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/202317651382_/Pair-of-Vintage-Design-Acoustics-D-12-Dodecahedron-Omni.jpg)
'
Hi
Yes i remember them.
The unique advantage we have today though is to use DSP to control the overall 'Sound Power' into the room whereas back then the radiate power was the same in all directions.
james
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The sharp edge right underneath the tweeter *will* be audible. That part of the baffle should be flush to the mid.
They do look good though...
Not in this case :wink:.
These speakers are strictly engineering designed for function.
The first 2way version was made in -78 for a hearing study and was only intended as a monitor with as little manipulation of the audio signal as possible.
He was forced to start to fabricate them due to high demand from people who heard them.
He has refined the original design since then :D.
I have a other version of these speakers and it is the best speakers i have ever heard.
He only makes them on order.
There is a commercial version, Guru QM60.
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For inspiration and a nod to balanced sound power and image control:
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/allison/allison_ic20/allison_ic20_brochure/allison_ic20_brochure_pg1.html#previous-photo
Click on page 2 for the information.
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A few years back I went to The Show in Newport Beach and the Muraudio room was very impressive with the $50k+ Domain Omni ESL omnidirectional electrostatic hybrid speakers. They were also using Bryston 7BSST2 amps.
Going back many more years I had a pair of EPI 100 bookshelfs and I am reminded of the EPI 1000 Towers and 400 Mini Tower speakers. Perhaps a crude attempt at omnidirectional. 4 woofers and tweeters in a 4 sided configuration. A friend of mine had the 75" tall Towers. Impressive!
Al
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Hi James!
Is there a target price point for this new speaker? It seems to me it will be an expensive project to bring to fruition. To me, Bryston has always been a serious heigh-end company with excellent engineering but still reasonable pricing which cannot be said about many other high-end brands. But it seems your products are moving into the stratosphere. They are better than they used to be years ago of course, but to me, it lost some of it's charms and the prices in EU are simply too high.
In the context of this new loudspeaker, 90 % people in Europe have living rooms not larger than 6 x 5 m so in reality, most of listening rooms cannot even handle a large stand-mount speaker, let alone a big floor-stander or a line array. I hope the costs of this project won't be ammortized through raising the prices of less expensive products.
Cheers!
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A few years back I went to The Show in Newport Beach and the Muraudio room was very impressive with the $50k+ Domain Omni ESL omnidirectional electrostatic hybrid speakers. They were also using Bryston 7BSST2 amps.
Going back many more years I had a pair of EPI 100 bookshelfs and I am reminded of the EPI 1000 Towers and 400 Mini Tower speakers. Perhaps a crude attempt at omnidirectional. 4 woofers and tweeters in a 4 sided configuration. A friend of mine had the 75" tall Towers. Impressive!
Al
Hi Folks,
One of the differences between current and past OMNI speaker designs and Brystons new design is the ability to control the 'Sound Power' through 360 degrees using DSP.
james
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James,
you said that a pair of those new Omnis have two DSP‘s.
would Bryston go for a one-box-solution for both speakers??
al.
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Hi Al,
We probably will offer both as some customers will want 3 channels as an LCR or want to place the BAX1 near each set of amplifiers.
james
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Maybe give these guys a call?
https://www.arya-audio.com/airblade
AMA with the designer:
https://www.reddit.com/r/diysound/comments/8srhhh/im_arthur_marker_audio_researcher_and_founder_of/
Tech info:
http://www.christensenaudioip.com/
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Maybe give these guys a call?
https://www.arya-audio.com/airblade
AMA with the designer:
https://www.reddit.com/r/diysound/comments/8srhhh/im_arthur_marker_audio_researcher_and_founder_of/
Tech info:
http://www.christensenaudioip.com/
Looks interesting - any reviews on the speaker?
james
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Looks interesting - any reviews on the speaker?
james
I think they are still developing. There is a picture of a loudspeaker using the Airblade on their instagram
https://www.instagram.com/aryaaudiolabs/
Like I said, give them a call (or email)! I think they will be thrilled with your attention, and Bryston might have a first on something brand new!
Presentaion in Munich, Germany
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewunkfdLY8w
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Hi Al,
We probably will offer both as some customers will want 3 channels as an LCR or want to place the BAX1 near each set of amplifiers.
james
...i think it‘s a good idea to offer one dsp for stereo needs! i really like the LFR1100 active speakers but one reason what keeps me away from buying them (among a few others) is the „two-box-dsp-solution“. these speakers are surely well designed and i’m sure that they have an incredible sound stage but in the end you have too many boxes at home for only one purpose:
to listen to music.
al.
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James,
any news on this project??
thanx,
al.
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Hi Al,
Yes doing the testing now but close your eyes as there are lots of "boxes having a single purpose" :lol:
Anyway the soundstage is just incredible and the ability to adjust the rear output allows you to fine tune the soundstage image size.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205649)
james
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oh, ok James, nice to know! speakers are not developed yet, i guess ?!
al.
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I like TOD-zilla. 8)
In German, TOD = death. Just sayin'. :cry:
...correct! :wink:
al.
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oh, ok James, nice to know! speakers are not developed yet, i guess ?!
al.
Hi Al,
I have prototypes but not cosmetically viable currently.
james
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James;
If you have prototypes then I'm guessing you're pretty far along. Please keep in mind, what you are describing are not omnidirectional. They may be polydirectional or perhaps rear-firing, but by doing that you lose many of the advantage of omni's.
I would encourage anyone interested to go to Don Morrison's website and read, preferably all of it. There is fantastic info. there. Then check out Duevel and German Physiks.
I currently run Mirage OMD-28, which I would describe as quasi-omnidirectional. It may appear to be semantics, but there are big differences in launch pattern depending on the omni design. I am aware of various shortcoming of these particular speakers, but despite this, the sound I'm getting is just fantastic. I get to have a realistic concert anytime I want at home. As my kids get older, I plan on upgrading to either Duevel or German Physiks. I grew up playing and being around a lot of non-amplified music, and agree with Morrison and the late Siegfried Linkwitz that un-amplified music is the gold standard.
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James;
If you have prototypes then I'm guessing you're pretty far along. Please keep in mind, what you are describing are not omnidirectional. They may be polydirectional or perhaps rear-firing, but by doing that you lose many of the advantage of omni's.
I would encourage anyone interested to go to Don Morrison's website and read, preferably all of it. There is fantastic info. there. Then check out Duevel and German Physiks.
I currently run Mirage OMD-28, which I would describe as quasi-omnidirectional. It may appear to be semantics, but there are big differences in launch pattern depending on the omni design. I am aware of various shortcoming of these particular speakers, but despite this, the sound I'm getting is just fantastic. I get to have a realistic concert anytime I want at home. As my kids get older, I plan on upgrading to either Duevel or German Physiks. I grew up playing and being around a lot of non-amplified music, and agree with Morrison and the late Siegfried Linkwitz that un-amplified music is the gold standard.
Hi grsimmon
When you say 'polydirectional' do you mean that because we allow the tailoring of the rear wave using DSP or because the assumption is that there is not a 360 degree uniform polar response.
I have known Don Morrison for many years and listened to many of his designs.
Also the designer of our Omin speaker is Andrew Welker who was the major engineer behind all the Mirage products. He has indicated to me that the difficulty he had with the Mirage is his inability to control the rear and side polar response which DSP has now allowed him to accomplish.
james
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Hi James;
Yes I have known of you and Don's friendship (maybe even collaboration?) - he told me himself :D
By polydirectional, this is what Don refers to as drivers firing "six ways to Sunday." I can't say for sure if the new Bryston design is poly or not without seeing it. THere are numerous examples of designs that have called themselves omni over the years, but are polydirectional and have totally different launch patterns (and drawbacks). I've checked out Mr. Welker's new designs and they are LESS omnidirectional compared to the Mirages he designed. I'm sure someone like Don would say, they are not omni at all. One thing I'm not understanding is why Bryston is pursuing DSP control over drivers. You have previously discussed the disadvantages of using DSP, here at his forum before. IIRC you were saying that if a designer is going to use DSP, it should be only for 200hz and below.
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Hi James;
Yes I have known of you and Don's friendship (maybe even collaboration?) - he told me himself :D
By polydirectional, this is what Don refers to as drivers firing "six ways to Sunday." I can't say for sure if the new Bryston design is poly or not without seeing it. THere are numerous examples of designs that have called themselves omni over the years, but are polydirectional and have totally different launch patterns (and drawbacks). I've checked out Mr. Welker's new designs and they are LESS omnidirectional compared to the Mirages he designed. I'm sure someone like Don would say, they are not omni at all. One thing I'm not understanding is why Bryston is pursuing DSP control over drivers. You have previously discussed the disadvantages of using DSP, here at his forum before. IIRC you were saying that if a designer is going to use DSP, it should be only for 200hz and below.
Hi
No I do not have a problem with DSP except when it changes the dispersion pattern of the speakers original design - like in room correction systems. That does not work because it changes the on and off axis response of the original design.
What we are doing is allowing you to alter the level of the rear drivers relative to the front drives depending on the distance from the rear wall. We are not changing the polar response of the speaker which is 360 degrees. The DSP also allows us to produce an Omni speaker because control of the complete Sound Power is not possible to the same degree with passive filters.
james
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205649)
Stunning photo..thanks James! :thumb:
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New OMNI TREX concept
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205801)
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Looks Formidable!
Price $50K all in, as shown?
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Looks Formidable!
Price $50K all in, as shown?
Hi
A lot would depend on the amps chosen - you need 10 channels.
james
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Thanx JT.
That makes things a lot easier! :lol:
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Quickly read through the thread , very interesting concept James.
Regarding the name for the new speakers, if I recall the original Model T name came from a combination of "T" for Tanner and the Henry Ford Auto reference that they come in any color as long as it is black (originally anyways)? Well, if these speakers can bring you to the next level in sound reproduction, why not name them after a state of the art vehicle ? I will throw a couple names out there ..."Mclaren" (back to the future reference?) Or with 10 channels of juice required, perhaps "Tesla" is more appropriate, as in the future in sound/automobiles is here. Should not be a copyright issue as they are to unique product groups.
Have fun with the project and choosing a name.
Scott
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Quickly read through the thread , very interesting concept James.
Regarding the name for the new speakers, if I recall the original Model T name came from a combination of "T" for Tanner and the Henry Ford Auto reference that they come in any color as long as it is black (originally anyways)? Well, if these speakers can bring you to the next level in sound reproduction, why not name them after a state of the art vehicle ? I will throw a couple names out there ..."Mclaren" (back to the future reference?) Or with 10 channels of juice required, perhaps "Tesla" is more appropriate, as in the future in sound/automobiles is here. Should not be a copyright issue as they are to unique product groups.
Have fun with the project and choosing a name.
Scott
Hi Scott
Yes it will be a very unique product so I am trying to come up with a neat name - thanks for the suggestions.
james
PS - notice anything about the feet on the speaker?
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Never mind... :duh:
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Those are definitely T-Rex feet.
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PS - notice anything about the feet on the speaker?
Bird feet! An ornithophile.
Never would have guessed it, JT. :lol:
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...uuuhhhh, wow! GIANT speakers, James!
are there smaller omni speakers available??
and one or two DSP necessary?
al.
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...uuuhhhh, wow! GIANT speakers, James!
are there smaller omni speakers available??
and one or two DSP necessary?
al.
They are about 6 feet tall.
We would probably have 2 different BAX1's - a single unit with 10 channels and the current unit.
james
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ONMI's up and running - nice room measurement :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206093)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206094)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206134)
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Hi James
Thank you for the update. Not sure how I missed this thread.
Two things I have learned about the TREX setup having had both Model T and Middle T setups. The Middle TREX is better for a sitting position as apposed to the Model TREX where the tweeters are above your ears. Also most people that have visited think the Model TREX is just too darn big.
So your proposal of 6 foot tall sounds right on the money, or perhaps 6'-6" which is the Middle TREX height which I happen to like very much.
Are you taking pre orders? LOL
Drew
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Possible for a external passive crossover for the TRex?
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Thanx JT.
That makes things a lot easier! :lol:
[/
...the new 9B Cubed in 5 channel configuration is 15.677€ here in Europe. you would need two of them.
more than 31.000€ just for amplification in this case :o. prices went through the ceiling.
al.
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I would be interested in hearing a comparison between these and the HEDD Electrodynamics Extended Tower Mains with their -3 dB point of 20 Hz, 3100 watts per side and $28,000 USD per pair price tag, including amps.
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I would be interested in hearing a comparison between these and the HEDD Electrodynamics Extended Tower Mains with their -3 dB point of 20 Hz, 3100 watts per side and $28,000 USD per pair price tag, including amps.
Hi Russell,
It looks like the HEDD is a totally different concept from what I am trying.
They are Class D amplifiers with switching power supplies and not an OMNI design (bass drivers on rear only) unless I am reading the info on their website incorrectly?
james
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Hi Folks,
Here is my main system I use most of the time.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206242)
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James,
any news about this project so far?? :drool:
al.
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James, I too was wondering how things are going? Cheers Drew
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Hi Drew
Nothing happening due to Covid.
Although I did hear that the virus can not survive in an anechoic chamber!
james
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Mr Tanner,
Have you read any of the articles from the following Canuck, Mitch Barnett,
https://accuratesound.ca/
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/what-is-accurate-sound-r923/
https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-Sound-Reproduction-Using-DSP-ebook/dp/B01FURPS40/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2D1EW3KDS1YVD&dchild=1&keywords=accurate+sound&qid=1595199597&sprefix=accuate%2Caps%2C222&sr=8-2
I plan on using his services to make a too big speaker fit into a small room (using ROON). I am in California and he is in Canada.The plan is to do this remotely. I have not done this yet so I cannot give endorsement but he has great reviews and maybe someone whose DSP skills could be useful for Bryston to have a discussion with.
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Mr Tanner,
Have you read any of the articles from the following Canuck, Mitch Barnett,
https://accuratesound.ca/
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/what-is-accurate-sound-r923/
https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-Sound-Reproduction-Using-DSP-ebook/dp/B01FURPS40/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2D1EW3KDS1YVD&dchild=1&keywords=accurate+sound&qid=1595199597&sprefix=accuate%2Caps%2C222&sr=8-2
I plan on using his services to make a too big speaker fit into a small room (using ROON). I am in California and he is in Canada.The plan is to do this remotely. I have not done this yet so I cannot give endorsement but he has great reviews and maybe someone whose DSP skills could be useful for Bryston to have a discussion with.
Hi YYZ
Interesting articles and I agree if you are going to use room EQ at all keep it in the low frequency range only.
On our active speakers we provide a GUI that allows you to utilize EQ below about 150Hz. I only recommend it's use if absolutely necessary.
One caution though is do not ever try to add energy to the room just reduce the peaks using EQ.
Anther concern is that when you listen to a speaker in a room you are listening to the "total radiate sound power" and not just the on axis response the mic 'see's" at the listening location. The brain and the ears hears totally differently than the way a mic picks up a signal at a single point in space.
james
PS - talk about multi-driver arrays!!!
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Hi, Bryston!
...any news here??
thanks,
al.
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Hi Al,
Yes I put a demo system together and was reasonably happy with it but COVID and parts shortages got in the way of any further progress.
james