[Housteau]

I am not sure if there was any agreement on an official name for this VMPS Reference System.  So, I have just been referring to it as a Reference System on other forums.



It is hard to get a wide enough vantage point with my camera to take it all in.  This was the best I have been able to get so far.  The lighting is tricky to.  But anyway, I will post a few more of the better ones I was able to get today.

   

I was very fortunate to have a UPS Freight Driver that was willing to assist me in both assembling the VLAs and moving them into my room.  I did have quite an elaborate plan worked out involving a hoist in my shop and all sorts of rigging, assuming I would be on my own.  But, all I ended up needing was the dolly I put together along with the ramp to help slide them into the room.

   

I am in the process now of dialing them in.  I will have more to report a bit later on today, but so far things are going very well.

[John Casler]

As not often happens. . . . .I am speechless

What a SUB!!!

I am not sure if there was any agreement on an official name for this VMPS Reference System.  So, I have just been referring to it as a Reference System on other forums.

[Housteau]

I am starting to get things dialed in a bit.  As Brian had suggest in an earlier post, I have used the single band of parametric equalization in each bass amp to fill in the bottom half octave. 

I have it set on both channels for a narrow band of + 6db gain @ 18 - 20 Hz.  This has me - 3db starting at 18 Hz and remaining +/- 3db up to 35 Hz.  I have a 5db peak centered at 37 Hz and a 10 db room mode suck-out centered at 47 Hz.

What is interesting is that with the positioning of these bass towers the above numbers are better than when I was using that single Larger sub converted to VSS specs.  With that smaller sub the 47 Hz suck-out reach 14db.  The 37 Hz peak was lower by 1db, but I needed that single band of equalization with the gain cut 14db  to achieve it!  So, fortunately the VLAs took care of that 37 Hz peak by themselves and left me that single band of EQ to fill in that bottom half octave.

These above numbers will probably get better as I learn more over time, but its not just about the numbers and specs.  It is about music and I will have more about that a little later.

[bpape]

 

I wanna hear these at the show - but I'd also like your impressions Dave.

Bryan

[zybar]

I am starting to get things dialed in a bit.  As Brian had suggest in an earlier post, I have used the single band of parametric equalization in each bass amp to fill in the bottom half octave. 

I have it set on both channels for a narrow band of + 6db gain @ 18 - 20 Hz.  This has me - 3db starting at 18 Hz and remaining +/- 3db up to 35 Hz.  I have a 5db peak centered at 37 Hz and a 10 db room mode suck-out centered at 47 Hz.

What is interesting is that with the positioning of these bass towers the above numbers are better than when I was using that single Larger sub converted to VSS specs.  With that smaller sub the 47 Hz suck-out reach 14db.  The 37 Hz peak was lower by 1db, but I needed that single band of equalization with the gain cut 14db  to achieve it!  So, fortunately the VLAs took care of that 37 Hz peak by themselves and left me that single band of EQ to fill in that bottom half octave.

These above numbers will probably get better as I learn more over time, but its not just about the numbers and specs.  It is about music and I will have more about that a little later.

Are the bass amps built into the towers or are you using outboard amps?

Given the investment in your system, I highly recommend getting a pair of Velodyne SMS-1 to to better integrate and control your bass.

(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/velodyne-sms1-digital-drive-sub-manager-12-2005-part-1.html)

I recently bought one and used it to just analyze and dial in my bass (my speakers have an 11 band EQ built in).

It is pretty easy to use and fairly inexpensive.

Best of luck with the setup.

George

[Housteau]

Are the bass amps built into the towers or are you using outboard amps?

I am using the outboard version of the Dayton 1000W mono sub amp.

Given the investment in your system, I highly recommend getting a pair of Velodyne SMS-1 to to better integrate and control your bass.

Digital EQ sure has come a long way and I have read good things about the Velodyne SMS-1.  With this new speaker system I have entered into a brave new world, and all previous bets are off.  I still have so much to learn with it.  I had those Infinities for 17 years or so and was still learning about them right up until the time when I finally let them go.  So, I still have a lot of speaker positioning, level adjustments and associated gear already in the set-up to to play with and tweak, before considering adding more hardware into the chain.  My system is already a bit complicated being tri-amped.

I believe in working with the room itself first to see what can be done acoustically before adding electronic correction into the mix.  It is only fairly recently through the help from Ethan Winer and Bryan Pape here on the AC acoustics forum and on others, that I was able to gain a good foothold on room treatments.  The sonic signature of my room, even though it had good dimensions to start with, has greatly improved.  I am not finished pursuing that direction as of yet.

The suck-out at 47 Hz only showed up when I switched over to measuring one hertz at a time.  That is the only true method of seeing what is really there.  When doing a standard 1/3 octave analysis, I have a flat response +/- 3db .  Just today alone I have knocked 4db out of that dip, and all done naturally.  Sometimes it can take a great deal of amplifier power to fill in a suck-out that is room generated.  That is another reason I want to work in other directions first.

My ears don't seem that sensitive for some reason to this dip, or other dips in general, as long as they are not too broad or too severe.  I notice rises in the response more readily.  That is why I am also working to knock down that bump at 37 Hz a bit more, although 5db is not really too bad.  To be honest, I am not sure if I want a completely flat response.  I have heard some systems that were reported to be such, and I was not that impressed.

However, with all of that said, I am certainly keeping the Velodyne SMS-1 in mind.

[Housteau]

I wanna hear these at the show

Logistics just might be a nightmare .  I see that The BOLDER Cable Company will have the RM-V60s at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, October 12-14, 2007 in Denver.  With all the press they have been receiving about their Squeeze Box 3, I expect this speaker should be square in the limelight.

[Bill Baker]

Very impressive, beautiful system you have there. Curious what you are driving the V60's with?
 Best of luck with dialing it in. It should be a fun and joyful ride.

[Early B.]

To be honest, I am not sure if I want a completely flat response.  I have heard some systems that were reported to be such, and I was not that impressed.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. I flattened my response using Onix's R-DES system a year ago, and I preferred the sound with a non-flat response. I suppose in the real world sound isn't so flat.

Your system is incredible. Can't wait to hear your honest assessment of the VLAs.

[zybar]

To be honest, I am not sure if I want a completely flat response.  I have heard some systems that were reported to be such, and I was not that impressed.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. I flattened my response using Onix's R-DES system a year ago, and I preferred the sound with a non-flat response. I suppose in the real world sound isn't so flat.

Your system is incredible. Can't wait to hear your honest assessment of the VLAs.

You don't want a totally flat response (I agree it doesn't sound right), but at the same time, you don't want big peaks and dips either.

George

[PLMONROE]

Given the investment in your system, I highly recommend getting a pair of Velodyne SMS-1 to to better integrate and control your bass.

(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/velodyne-sms1-digital-drive-sub-manager-12-2005-part-1.html)

I recently bought one and used it to just analyze and dial in my bass (my speakers have an 11 band EQ built in).

It is pretty easy to use and fairly inexpensive.
George

I think that is a good suggestion. As a matter of fact I have had a pair sitting on my shelf now for a month or so, awaiting my VLAs. 

Paul

[Housteau]

Very impressive, beautiful system you have there. Curious what you are driving the V60's with?
 Best of luck with dialing it in. It should be a fun and joyful ride.

Thank you.  This is my first 'new' speaker purchase in a very, very long time.  In fact I need to go way back to my Allison 3s for that one, and that is the late 70s I think.  I usually try to pick things up from trusted owners second hand if I can.  That is usually how I can afford them.  I have the V60s bi-amped with the older VTL Deluxe 100 Monos for the higher frequencies, and the just as aged and venerable Electron Kinetics Eagle 2a on bass down to around 55 Hz.  Those mono Dayton plate amps take tower duty.  The VTLs run EL-34 tubes and only a few pair were ever made.  They have done well with my ribbons and stats.  The Eagle still has a bit of a cult following.  There was a time when it was the last word on bass control, especially for the IRS systems.

[Housteau]

There are a lot of good reviewers here on the various departments of Audio Circle.  I don't really qualify as one of them.  My exposure to this present world just full of various audio components is too limited for that.  But, what I can do is try to explain what I do hear in comparison to what else I have had in this room, and possibly what I have had a chance to hear elsewhere. However, trying to compare sounds between different listening spaces can be very tricky, with the room itself acting as a major component in the chain.

Describing the sound of a subwoofer is difficult, especially one crossed over in the mid 50 Hz range, because it really doesn't have a ‘sound'.  It has a feeling.  It lays the very foundation of the music, yet doesn't have a sound of its own.  It is more of an exclamation point to the initial attack from the higher range speakers by adding weight and authority to that foundation.

In trying to come up with a single way of describing the feeling of the VLAs so far, the word visceral very much comes to mind.  The foundation they set is very solid, yet fast moving if the music dictates as much.  They create a living and tangible texture around recorded music that brings it even closer to that illusion of reality for me.  The experience is as an extension of the RM-V60 itself.  Although they may not actually have a sound that you can hear, they have the ability to broaden the soundstage with larger scale works.  My guess is that this extension given just naturally creates more of a life-sized presentation.

When a friend had come over after I first got the V60s, his comment was that the sound appeared as if it was coming from a single driver, in other words seamless.  Realizing that my previous system involved the Martin Logan CLS1s, a true single driver speaker, places that comment into a better perspective.  Taken as a whole system the V60 / VLA package does afford a presentation quite seamless in nature.

Previously I had thought both my Infinity RS1bs and my CLS / Infinity bass tower hybrid blended well in a seamless way.  The Infinity towers used six 8 inch drivers each that were pretty quick, but they were also crossed over to the higher range units at a much higher frequency of 150 Hz.  Even with 12 inch drivers, the VLAs have a speed advantage over what I had been used to.  Although I was pleased with my older systems at the time, they did not have this level of visceral and solid feel to their set-up.

I have been listening to a wide range of music that I am familiar with.  Without exception each selection is once again a new adventure, just as they were when the V60s first arrived.  I hope to have some audiophile friends over soon to get their impressions.  Unfortunately I do live in a small town and I am pretty isolated from others that share my various interests.

[bpape]

That amplification combo sounds like a perfect match for something like these.  That 'old' 2A is still a sweet amp IMO - especially for bass duties.

Bryan

[JoshK]

I believe in working with the room itself first to see what can be done acoustically before adding electronic correction into the mix. 

That is a good plan I think.

My ears don't seem that sensitive for some reason to this dip, or other dips in general, as long as they are not too broad or too severe.  I notice rises in the response more readily.  That is why I am also working to knock down that bump at 37 Hz a bit more, although 5db is not really too bad. 

Your not alone.  Its well documented that narrow dips even dramactic are hard to hear, they need to be a bit wider before you notice them.  Peaks are typically more noticeable.

Another thing people forget is "flat" is flat at one point, what matters more often with flatness is relative flatness over a broader dispersion into the room.   This allows more of a balance of energy into the room which sometimes matter more than onaxis flatness.  I think it defines a great deal of the tonal balance of a speaker and something I am more particular about than some of the audiophile qualities.   But a lot of this is speaker inherent.  I think this reference system is probably good in this sense judging from the looks of it.

Congrats!

[bpape]

Very narrow dips are hard to detect sometimes.  Now, if it happens to be exactly at say the open bottom string on a bass, a particular note of a piano key, etc. - then it may be easier to notice. 

[Housteau]

Another thing people forget is "flat" is flat at one point, what matters more often with flatness is relative flatness over a broader dispersion into the room.   This allows more of a balance of energy into the room which sometimes matter more than on axis flatness.  I think it defines a great deal of the tonal balance of a speaker and something I am more particular about than some of the audiophile qualities. 

That is a good point and shows another advantage of dealing with room acoustics first.  So far I have been following the broadband school of absorption when it comes to the bass frequencies, and that has worked well.

[Housteau]

I had an audiophile friend over this morning for a few hours.  This fellow has always been my unbiased reality check against my own sometimes over enthusiastic positive impressions about this, or that.  Several times in the recent past I have been put back into my place with that cold dose of honesty that things were not quite as rosy as I had originally thought they were.  It is very easy to become biased to liking something new and believing it to be better and correct, especially if you now own it.  So, I really had been anticipating his visit on one hand, yet a bit concerned on the other.

He listened to a variety of music, some brand new to him and other material he was already quite familiar with.  I am glad to write that he found this to be the very best recorded music that he had ever heard in a home listening environment.  He said the immediacy and coherency from now top to bottom was striking.  Earlier he felt that the V60s by themselves had this quality in spades, and even with just my loaner VSS sub, was a very impressive system.  But, now with the addition of the twin VLA towers, the expanse of the presentation just draws one in. 

I personally find the VLAs have added another dimension to an already exceptional sounding system.  Instruments appear to take on actual weight and space within the soundstage.  As large as the system is visually and as large of a presentation it can produce, my friend especially noticed the delicacy of how it retrieves low level details and layering on well recorded music.  Some of the selections from my Chesky Jazz samplers just sound phenomenal.  The purity of vocals can be spooky and almost a bit unnerving at times.  That must be what one of the Stereophile reviewers used to call his goosebump test.

[Housteau]

 

I tried a few more shots from a different angle.  I took them for a post on acoustic treatments for dipoles here on the AC Acoustics forum.  Anyway, these photos show a little better what I have along the rear wall behind the V-60s.  I guess I am one of the few people that are not using the foam wedge provided to absorb the rear generated energy.  When I had tried that I felt too much was being taken away and I lost a lot of that that spaciousness and air that only dipoles can provide. 

So, this was my solution.  I am using a small 12" tube trap for partial absorption, and tall artificial plants on the inside to act as diffusers.  This offers me a good balance of what I was looking for.  The rest of my room treatments also help to control the bass, shimmer, imaging and focus.

[dubravko]

I am not sure if there was any agreement on an official name for this VMPS Reference System.

What a system...
In concept, it is just like mine, only slightly larger in size.

Congratulations!