[usp1]

Currently I am running an old Music Hall CDP through either a rega or ee minimax dac. I have tried an oppo BDP-83se as well and while I can hear (or at least think I can hear) some slight difference when I switch between themusic hall and opp (both being used as transports), the difference is very slight. Is there any real value to be had by getting a better transport?

The rest of the equipment is

transport ->rega/ee minimax dac/Dodd tube buffer/odyssey stratos monos/Magnepan 1.6qr(upgraded crossovers)

Would something like a marantz 8004/11s1 or cambridge 840c be a better transport. It seems like a waste to spend the money when I already have two quality dacs?

[wilsynet]

I'd try this instead:

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/synchro-mesh

I think he has a 30 day trial.

Also, have you done any opamp rolling with the EE DAC?

[Austin08]

Here are several of my though

First, the Oppo 83se strongest feature is its analog ouput but you did not use it.
Second, while the Oppo is a very strong contender for all around multiformat player, IMO, it is doing a very good job with blu ray and dsd but only average or above average a bit with red book cds.
Third, you fet both player into ee minimax which you could only slightly hearing the different. This did not suprise me much because In this case the ee minimax is the one that infuence the sound.

So, if you want something different or better then I suggest that you should change or upgrade your dac. Or at least, try to compare the Oppo 83se analog stage vs the Music Hall + ee minimax combo and go from there.

Just my 2cts

[usp1]

Here are several of my though

First, the Oppo 83se strongest feature is its analog ouput but you did not use it.
Second, while the Oppo is a very strong contender for all around multiformat player, IMO, it is doing a very good job with blu ray and dsd but only average or above average a bit with red book cds.
Third, you fet both player into ee minimax which you could only slightly hearing the different. This did not suprise me much because In this case the ee minimax is the one that infuence the sound.

So, if you want something different or better then I suggest that you should change or upgrade your dac. Or at least, try to compare the Oppo 83se analog stage vs the Music Hall + ee minimax combo and go from there.

Just my 2cts

I did compare the analog of the oppo with both the rega dac as well as the ee dac. While not exactly apples to apples comparison, I had a 3-way comparison going between the analog out of the oppo bdp-83se, the oppo connected to the rega via toslink, the oppo connected  to the ee via coax digital. Both the regs and the ee sounded better than the oppo dacs (to my ears). Not by much but definitely better. I cannot make out much difference between the ee and rega ( some times I like one sometimes the other).

Since neither the oppo nor the music hall are known as great transports, I was wondering if a better transport would help.

[Quiet Earth]

Hi usp1,
Just out of curiosity, which digital cable are you using between your transport and DAC? How long is that cable?

If you hear little to no difference between transports, it might be that the cable is holding you back, or it could be that you are not really choosing a better performing transport, and so it only sounds like a lateral move to you. (Like splitting hairs.)  I personally like CD transports that are built around the top-loading Phillips CD pro mechanism. I'm sure there are other good ones though. I think that the CD transport is just as important as the DAC, and it's totally worth upgrading if you are still using a mid-fi transport. You should hear a big improvement from your DAC as you move up the transport latter of quality. When you upgrade the source, the whole system gets upgraded! 

 I am generally not a big fan of reclockers or other digital manipulation devices that go between the transport and the DAC. Certainly not for 16/44.1 redbook CD. I feel like these devices take you further away from what is actually recorded on the disc as they homogenize the sound by tearing the signal apart, and synthetically rebuilding it into something that it never was. I believe that ripping CDs to a computer does the same irreparable damage to CD sound quality, so I always cringe when people offer that up as the ultimate answer for a CD transport.

I believe that the digital cable matters a lot, and it should be considered as a component to go with your transport/DAC, and not just a cable that goes between them.

Last but not least, a really good CD Transport is not cheap. Maybe that's why they don't get recommended very much around here.

[usp1]

Hi usp1,
Just out of curiosity, which digital cable are you using between your transport and DAC? How long is that cable?

I have a 1m virtue audio speedfreak cable and a 1.5m OCC digital cable from Liberty cables that I got from their recent sale. Both seem to be work much better than some generic digital cables that I had lying around.   

If you hear little to no difference between transports, it might be that the cable is holding you back, or it could be that you are not really choosing a better performing transport, and so it only sounds like a lateral move to you. (Like splitting hairs.)  I personally like CD transports that are built around the top-loading Phillips CD pro mechanism. I'm sure there are other good ones though. I think that the CD transport is just as important as the DAC, and it's totally worth upgrading if you are still using a mid-fi transport. You should hear a big improvement from your DAC as you move up the transport latter of quality. When you upgrade the source, the whole system gets upgraded! 

This is what I am wondering as well. Am I not hearing big differences because of the quality of the transports I am using (or have I rached the limits of my system and/or hearing abilities). I have seen some DIY transports being advertised with the Phillips CDpro mechanism but I am not sure I want to mess with that. What brands should I look for that have this mechanism? My preference is to buy used so that takes the sting out of the high prices somewhat.

 

[Quiet Earth]

Yes, I also think the main reason for not hearing a big change between transports is because the transports you are comparing are all about the same level of quality. The next limiting factor would be the performance of the DACs, and lastly the cable. Your hearing is fine. 

You mentioned a Marantz 8004 player as a transport upgrade. Buying another all in one player to be used as a transport would be a lateral move in my opinion. On the other hand, the Musical Fidelity M1 CD transport might be a real upgrade, since all of the money spent is directed to only the transport and its associated circuitry. (I haven't heard the M1 transport, I'm just using it as an example at that 1000 dollar price level.)

Also, a better all in one CD player is still a solution.

I think you have to step quite a bit over the 1000 dollar price category to get a top loader with the Phillips drive mechanism. What is your budget? That may help others to pitch in with suggestions.

[Ericus Rex]

You mentioned a Marantz 8004 player as a transport upgrade. Buying another all in one player to be used as a transport would be a lateral move in my opinion.

That's such a great SACD player that you just may sell both your dacs after hearing it.  It also has a digital input so you wouldn't give up any versatility with that player.  IMO, an all-in-one player is the best route until you get into uber-dollar separates.

[tomytoons]

I think ER is correct. I am not into PC audio.

I was in that situation recently. Sold my Raysonic 128 fast, too fast.
I was running a DAC I thought was adequate, it sounded great with the Raysonic.
So I went looking for a transport only. Well, by the time you spend $1k
on a transport and there are not a lot out there, you can purchase a whole CD SACD player.
Which is I what I did. A real deal came up and I purchased Marantz SA15 S2 Ltd for half price, 3 months old. The S2 is a new model and it is nicer sounding than the Raysonic which is not SACD.
The Marantz beat the hell out of the DAC. So an SA8004 would sound quit nice. The question would be would it be to your taste. I like the sound of Marantz players.

My 2 cents worth of advice. I have done it twice now and went back to a single box player. The last time coming off a Benchmark DAC. Which may or may not say too much. The Marantz is very different from the Benchmark.

[JLM]

Transport + digital cable = jitter  (As I understand, and a shortcoming of separate transport/DAC setups)

Async DACs should greatly reduce jitter.  (Again as I understand) 

As jitter is a major sound quality limitation to optical disc spinning, this could be your answer.

I've thought about this lately as I'm on my 3rd transport this year ($170 Oppo 970 and $1000 Onyx CD-3 both developed permanent control glitches).  Now I'm using an old $700 Sony XA20ES (rather well respected).  And the sound quality differences have been minimal to these ears.

OTOH I'm a speaker guy and can easily dismiss the rest of the audio signal chain.   

[tomytoons]

You don't see too many Sony XA20's come up FS but I always liked that player. Good choice, probably good sound on it's own too.
They looked to be a robust transport back when Sony was making REAL CD players.

I looked at the Aune transport for $1k compare it to what you are getting in a Marantz.
It is over priced.

[Quiet Earth]

ER and tommytoons,

I have never heard the Marantz but I agree with your philosophy. If I were doing it all from scratch and I had to keep the budget under three or four grand I would probably just buy the best CD player I could afford and start spinning discs. The biggest problem I see today with transport only devices is the large gap between the entry level stuff and the super high end products. This certainly makes the one box solution more attractive.

However, if I already owned a dedicated DAC that I liked and I wanted to get more out of it, then I would invest a couple more thousand in a nice, dedicated transport. Plus a good cable. That would push the value of the DAC up to another level. Tough call and certainly a personal choice.

jitter is a major sound quality limitation to optical disc spinning

JLM good buddy,

Nothing could be further from the truth. How low does jitter need to go before we stop obsessing over it? Remember the THD wars of the 1970s? That all seems kind of silly now doesn't it.  Food for thought . . .

[usp1]

I was not aware that separate transport and dac via a digital cable could lead to jitter. I wonder why the oppo does not sound better than the rega or the ee. The rega apparently (per reviews) does a great job with jitter reduction and the EE's Sabre dacs are also know for that so perhaps that might be the reason.

Quiet Earth - My budget for a transport is quite modest. Purchasing a multikilo transport is not in the cards.

[Quiet Earth]

I hear ya. I would probably just stick with the old Music Hall then, and spend your money elsewhere for now. Maybe keep saving up for something that is at least as good as the Musical Fidelity transport, or a nicer one-box player down the road.

Have you tried any inexpensive isolation/vibration footers/tweaks with the Music Hall player to see if you can squeeze any more out of it? Power cord? Just a thought.

Hope I am not monopolizing this thread......  Happy Monday everyone! 

[tomytoons]

I got a little off topic too.
Also in this case I would look at the cables.
What I'm using here is extremely good and has been very good on everything I used them with.

Check my system profile.

[usp1]

I am trying to keep this hobby within reason. I am debating between a DIY transport I can build using a Philips transport (I am not sure if I have the necessary skill to pull it off) or buying a used marantz.

I will also play with cables as you have recommended to see if that helps.

[jarcher]

I think I'm more in the Austin camp re: thinking that a DAC upgrade makes more of a difference than a transport upgrade as that technology seems to progress more and more frequently than transports. Not to diminish the importance of a transport, but beyond a certain base standard, how much improvement are you going to get spending a lot more? 

I'm not personally familiar with the ee minimax, but I have heard the Rega dac.  I don't know what you're budget is, but I think as of today you're going to have to spend a lot more money to best the sound quality of those DACs. 

So, I think tweaking what you've got is going to be the best bang for the buck until DACs make the next big leap in price / quality.  E.g. putting good power cords on the transport & dac and good interconnects between all of them.  Digital is particularly susceptible to power noise, so addressing that through the myriad ways you can will pay dividends as well. Meaning power conditioning, from a better wall outlet to a dedicated line to a power conditioner.

[usp1]

I think I'm more in the Austin camp re: thinking that a DAC upgrade makes more of a difference than a transport upgrade as that technology seems to progress more and more frequently than transports. Not to diminish the importance of a transport, but beyond a certain base standard, how much improvement are you going to get spending a lot more? 

I'm not personally familiar with the ee minimax, but I have heard the Rega dac.  I don't know what you're budget is, but I think as of today you're going to have to spend a lot more money to best the sound quality of those DACs. 

So, I think tweaking what you've got is going to be the best bang for the buck until DACs make the next big leap in price / quality.  E.g. putting good power cords on the transport & dac and good interconnects between all of them.  Digital is particularly susceptible to power noise, so addressing that through the myriad ways you can will pay dividends as well. Meaning power conditioning, from a better wall outlet to a dedicated line to a power conditioner.

I do have a power conditioner (an APC) which I use for the transport and dac. The buffer is battery powered and the amps go directly to the wall. I will experiment more with ICs..although I am not sure I want to spend huge amounts on these. I have some sliver ICs from MAC and virtue audio ICs. The only thing I have not tried are improved power cords ( I still cannot wrap my mind around why the last few feet should make much of a difference)

[jarcher]

You will be stunned what a difference even a modest power cord will make.  I would have laughed at myself 2 years ago for saying so, but it's true.  Even say a $50 Wireworld Stratus 5 I found sometimes made a bigger difference than interconnects.  I don't believe in spending a lot on any cables, but I do believe you've got to take the next step over stock.