AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Discless Circle => Topic started by: glynnw on 10 Aug 2017, 06:01 pm
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Posted here because no circle seems to host "just curious" thoughts. Does anyone feel their system or know of a system that realistically replays a piano? In over 40 years as an active audiophile I have never heard, much less owned a system that can do this. Not at CES, not at RMAF... not at my house, etc. I have heard extremely expensive systems that failed at this. I don't mean sounds good or comes close - I mean sound that would fool a piano tuner. If you feel you know of one, what was in the system? Just curious.
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I've had a bunch of people over my house and usually a fair portion will specifically make a comment about hearing something that sounds like a real piano. I have multiple systems with different type of speakers. TImbre and sound stage are more important to me than some other things.
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YES, with reservations. Analog or Digital ? System must go down to 25HZ for starters as the piano goes to 28HZ. Just to be clear NO audio system can produce 100% real life sound. So close but no cigar.
charles
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The closest I have ever heard to real piano sound. Was just a couple of weeks ago at California Audio Show 2017. https://i2.wp.com/theaudiobeatnik.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Audio-Federation.jpg?w=1280
The Audio Federation room featured top-of-the-line Audio Note electronics with Acapella’s High Cellini speakers.
As I walked by the room I said to my brother " they have a piano in that room for comparison "
I was wrong, just a magnificent sound system $ 300,000 , just out of my price range!!!
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A lady I bought my Adcom GFA-555 (1st one, not the MK II) and GFP-500 from was running Magnapans with some model of Kimber cables. She was a piano teacher by profession and she had commented that it was the closest sounding to a real piano as she had ever heard from a stereo system.
Not sure what Magnapan model they were, only that they were about 6' tall. And the Kimber cables were a black and brown braid.
I should have taken her up on the offer to have those Magnapans and cables free.
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Real world answer... no system can actually make a piano recording sound exactly like a piano because it's not a piano. That's not to say some don't come close.
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When I was practicing daily and playing, I had no problem picking out house sounds of Baldwin, Mason Hamlin, Steinway, Chickering, etc. I think Danny Richie's line sources come very close to realistic tone with bass deep and accurate enough to be mistaken for the real thing.
... So I built a pair of LS9's.
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A lady I bought my Adcom GFA-555 (1st one, not the MK II) and GFP-500 from was running Magnapans with some model of Kimber cables. She was a piano teacher by profession and she had commented that it was the closest sounding to a real piano as she had ever heard from a stereo system.
Not sure what Magnapan model they were, only that they were about 6' tall. And the Kimber cables were a black and brown braid.
I should have taken her up on the offer to have those Magnapans and cables free.
If her experience is like that of most people, an Adcom-driven pair of Maggies is better than any stereo system she is like to ever hear.
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Pretty close, but after all, it has to go through microphones, among other things. IMO it helps to have subwoofers, acoustic treatment, and EQ the bass so it's reasonably smooth. If one seeks the proverbial audiophile "tight bass," the left hand will sound wrong, lacking bloom and volume, to my ears.
I can say this: a professional pianist heard my former system and said: "That's what I want when I grow up."
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Of all the speakers I've heard, Acoustats do the best job of making a piano actually sound like a piano.
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Of all the speakers I've heard, Acoustats do the best job of making a piano actually sound like a piano.
+1
Acoustat Monitor Iv's with the DD servo tube amps.
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My Daedalus Audio Ulysses and a Vinnie Rossi LIO with hi-Rez files from a Musicvault Ultra makes for the most realistic recorded piano sounds I've ever heard. (IMHO)
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I think it has more to do with the recording than the system. A lot piano recordings are close miked or recorded in some other fashion that doesn't lend itself to sounding like a piano sounds when you listen to one in a club, a decent sized room, or a hall.
With what I consider a good recording, my system sounds like the real thing.
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I think it has more to do with the recording than the system. A lot piano recordings are close miked or recorded in some other fashion that doesn't lend itself to sounding like a piano sounds when you listen to one in a club, a decent sized room, or a hall.
With what I consider a good recording, my system sounds like the real thing.
Can you name/list what you consider a good piano recording....this question goes for other members as well.
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"Sound like"? Yes. Same as? No. There is no perfect speaker (and no perfect recording).
The purpose for home audio is to entertain, to give enough auditory clues to allow us to recreate in our minds the original event. More clues, easier for the mind to make the recreation (or allow us to more fully hear the original event for the first time).
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Can you name/list what you consider a good piano recording....this question goes for other members as well.
David Fung "Evening Conversations" from Yarlung Records may be the best close miked piano piece I've heard to date. It achieves it goal of putting the piano in your living room. To me it sounds much like what I heard when playing.
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having once owned a nice Player Piano.....close but no cigar
a number of years ago AUDIO magazine produced some Piano recordings with Steinway
Historical comparisons, Stereophile has done some good Piano recordings
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I think it has more to do with the recording than the system. A lot piano recordings are close miked or recorded in some other fashion that doesn't lend itself to sounding like a piano sounds when you listen to one in a club, a decent sized room, or a hall.
With what I consider a good recording, my system sounds like the real thing.
Excellent point about recording.
charles
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"Sound like"? Yes. Same as? No. There is no perfect speaker (and no perfect recording).
The purpose for home audio is to entertain, to give enough auditory clues to allow us to recreate in our minds the original event. More clues, easier for the mind to make the recreation (or allow us to more fully hear the original event for the first time).
JLM spot on it has to hit ya in the heart. Emotion is key. Ya get emotion leave the rig be.
charles
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efficient speakers
Tube amps
Audio Note DAC
Of course you have do alot of other things right and not screw up the sound by doing something stupid, like taking the advice of the audio critics... but these three things will get you far down the road in the right direction.
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Bösendorfer VC7. An Austrian maker that also has been making pianos for 175 years.. While in Germany years ago, it was about as close to the sound of a piano as I have ever heard.
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Can you name/list what you consider a good piano recording....this question goes for other members as well.
Here are a few:
Pictures at an Exhibition/Ginastera: Piano Sonata No. 1, Op. 22. Hyperion Knight, Wilson Records.
Iberia. Albeniz. Play Classics Truthful Master Series. Luis Grane, piano
Beethoven Piano Sonatas 8-11. Ronald Brautigam, BIS records. Period type piano.
None of these are "conventional" recordings, for various reasons.
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Thanks S Clark,
That David Fung album is one of the better recordings I have heard. Sounds crazy real & dynamic.
I do not think most audiophiles have ever heard what is on that recording. Most systems can't do dynamics like that and stay true to realistic tone / timber.
As good as the big Maggie's are (and I am a huge fan of what they do very well), they can't hit you in the gut with the dynamics that are on that album. Even with 1000 watt monos.
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Magneplanars have always been dynamically challenged, that is one of the bigger reasons why many people eventually move on after the novelty of a panel wears off.
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I like having that punched in the gut feeling. 8)
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One of the issues with how recorded piano sounds is that a piano is not 20 feet wide. Most recordings are made with several mics covering the soundboard, and after mixing, the result is a piano far larger than life. Usually the recording is brighter, too, since it's made far, far closer than any of us listen to a piano.
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I've never heard a system reproduce piano in a totally convincing way, such that it sounds like a real piano, even from the next room.
I have been pursuing this for 45 years now, both in my speaker designs in the 70s and for the last 30 years as a recordist.
When I started recording seriously, in around 1987, I was using near state of the art microphones, cables, microphone preamp (chosen, in fact, for its performance with piano sources) and A/D converters—first the built in converter in the Sony PCM F-1, the the first Apogee on the market, the AD500—a $5000 stereo 16/44 converter.
Hearing playback was always a sobering letdown and got me to thinking about what the issue was; how could it be so different from the real thing?
At the time I was using Tannoy PBM 6.5 monitors—very good for the size, price and time (1968or9). I went from those to B&W 610s, I think, then B&W 805s, but didn't trust the bass rendering, then Harbeth HLP3s with Hsu 10" subs, but could never get them to meld. Finally in 1995 got some 1977 vintage Tannoy Ardens to pair with the subs—now I was getting somewhere. Even though they were about 91 dB/W sensitive they sounded distinctly better when I duplicated my 80 W Sugden amplifiers to vertically bi-amp them. Now the sound I was getting had some resemblance to the real thing, whether it was solo piano or orchestra or 200 voice choir.
This experience showed me that, efficient though the Tannoys were, they could have benefited from much more power than I would have guessed was useful.
Incidentally, from the Tannoys I took a series of downward steps, it seems, in the pursuit of a more refined treble sound (the Tannoys were a little coarse through much of the high frequency realm). I went from SP Technologies Timepieces to Klein + Hummel o300s to what I have nowYamaha NS-1000s, driven by a Yamaha B-2 amplifier, used in the midfield; about 6 feet from my listening chair.
At this point, my thought is that generally what is missing in the various attempts to reproduce piano, apart from the obvious (and common) gross errors in tonality is dynamic capability. The 'forte' part of pianoforte should not be taken lightly, nor should the need for about 20 dB more headroom than many texts suggest you need for realistic playback.
So, my conclusion is (and this is a guess, since I cannot afford the equipment this would require) that what is needed if you are to have a hope of fooling anyone with your piano replay is some variation of these criteria:
1. an amplifier capable of an honest 1000 W into 8Ω
2. a speaker capable of absorbing 1000 W without thermal compression of more than 1 dB in the process as well as having a sensitivity of at least 97 dB/W/M
3. said speaker system having accurate tonality and excellent impulse response through the range of 30 Hz—10 kHz, preferably 20 Hz—20 kHz and, if money were no object, 10 Hz—40 kHz.
The object of all this is a playback system with the capability of hitting 125 dB cleanly on peaks at the same time as having the refinement of, say, a Janszen or Sanders electrostat.
Is this too much to ask?
I intend to find out, but it will have to be by DIY in my retirement years. I am thinking the midrange would have to be covered by a horn, like one of the BD variety:
http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d83.html or something like the Geddes designs, possibly, but I think I want the horn to cover more of the lower midrange. Adequate bass potential would be needed; I'm thinking something like an 18 and a 15 per side, perhaps dipole, perhaps infinite baffle (built across corners).
As to recordings representing piano accurately— I believe I already have those, and I recorded them.
One example can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kLBAWutvdw
This is the theme to the movie "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly", played by Paul Cantelon on a nice Steinway in the Recital Hall at the University of Victoria. I recorded that about 10 years ago
It, like the other 2 CDs I recorded for Paul, was recorded in the purest Blumlein way, with the microphone (a stereo ribbon, the Royer SF-12) in exactly the same position every time—I say 'purest' because it is my feeling that Blumlein is best done with ribbon microphones, not circular diaphragm condensers as is the norm. If you take the trouble to listen to this or his other recordings with the speakers positioned as they should for Blumlein recordings—±45º off your frontal axis, not less, and in a configuration which is capable of yielding a very tight central mono image (I mean tight like coming from a vertical slit in the centre)—you will be treated to possibly your first ever experience of realistic imaging in piano reproduction.
When I was working in a high end home hi-fi shop 25 years ago and played my first recording of Paul (done the same way) on a meticulously set up pair of Martin Logans with YBA amplification, listening to the master tape raw, with no manipulation, I was thrilled to realize I had accomplished my goal. The piano image was completely detached from the speakers, hovering life-size between and behind. The effect was genuinely like the speakers were not even playing—there was no sense of anything coming from them.
That experience showed me that, since then, whenever I play that recording and it is not convincing, I don't have to wonder if it might be the recording at fault, I know it is the playback system.
It's handy.
Some other recordings done the same way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NinR6PfVDHI
http://royerlabs.com/sf-12-3/ (scroll down)
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My experience tells me when you hear a piano live, you are hearing the room as well as the piano. The room has to be on the recording, and your system has to be able to reproduce that ambiance in order for you to hear a piano sound like a piano. I think my system does a very good job, but I can't say I've ever been fooled into thinking I'm hearing a real piano.
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No system can reproduce a live piano as a live piano. Close possible ? Absolutely yes. As long as I hear the timbre and harmonic of the note along with the hall emotional impact is had. Weight as well is an important part of the reproduction.
Used Rethm Saadhanas speakers[ 102db] with a Qualiton A20i integrated fronted by AQUA Formula DAC and Vida transport to achieve that. Even with my Fritz Carrera speakers plenty of emotional impact with piano.
charles
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When I was practicing daily and playing, I had no problem picking out house sounds of Baldwin, Mason Hamlin, Steinway, Chickering, etc.
How many people here can honestly say that? And if you can't make that distinction, do you really know what any given piano sounds like? All pianos sound different. So if you don't know what a particular piano sounds like, and you don't know for sure if you have a perfect recording as such, then you really don't have a point of reference - do you? So when it comes to answering the question in this thread, it seems rather obvious that there is a disparity between what many of us think we know, and what we actually know.
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How many people here can honestly say that? And if you can't make that distinction, do you really know what any given piano sounds like? All pianos sound different. So if you don't know what a particular piano sounds like, and you don't know for sure if you have a perfect recording as such, then you really don't have a point of reference - do you? So when it comes to answering the question in this thread, it seems rather obvious that there is a disparity between what many of us think we know, and what we actually know.
For lucky me my neighbor owns and plays a Steinway. Very familiar with that live sound.
charles
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[...]
So, my conclusion is (and this is a guess, since I cannot afford the equipment this would require) that what is needed if you are to have a hope of fooling anyone with your piano replay is some variation of these criteria:
1. an amplifier capable of an honest 1000 W into 8Ω
2. a speaker capable of absorbing 1000 W without thermal compression of more than 1 dB in the process as well as having a sensitivity of at least 97 dB/W/M
3. said speaker system having accurate tonality and excellent impulse response through the range of 30 Hz—10 kHz, preferably 20 Hz—20 kHz and, if money were no object, 10 Hz—40 kHz.
The object of all this is a playback system with the capability of hitting 125 dB cleanly on peaks at the same time as having the refinement of, say, a Janszen or Sanders electrostat.
Is this too much to ask?
[...]
It, like the other 2 CDs I recorded for Paul, was recorded in the purest Blumlein way, with the microphone (a stereo ribbon, the Royer SF-12) in exactly the same position every time—I say 'purest' because it is my feeling that Blumlein is best done with ribbon microphones, not circular diaphragm condensers as is the norm. [...]
Some very interesting points in your post. I've extracted the two that I have some experience with. Regarding power, I owned a Bryston 14B SST -- rated 600 wpc at 8 ohms, 900 at 4, and capable of more. The sense of ease and dynamics from that amp was really wonderful. When I fell in love with the Janszen 2.1s, I sold the amp and got one that couldn't burn out the speakers. As much as I love the Janszens, I would love even more an equally refined speaker that could handle larger peaks. I agree that it's likely a limiting factor in realistic reproduction. I seem to remember that in the 1970s this point was raised by Bob Carver and others and there was a rash of high-powered amps on the market.
Regarding recording, I've read enough booklets of CDs -- and done enough experiments with recording -- and read enough mic spec sheets -- to believe that uncolored microphones are rare, and that Royer ribbons are some of the least colored, and to know that uncolored is what I want. (If I had $2700 lying around, I'd buy an SF-12, but I'm retired, too, and recording is a hobby.) I've also experienced that Blumlein recordings are often the most coherent, even when I haven't moved to the right position.
Moving position seems somewhat problematic in a room with EQ controlling strong bass nodes, but I should try it anyway, even if it throws the EQ off.
Do you have a discography available?
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I have a piano in my house. I don't think there is anything in the world that would ever get me to the point that I couldn't tell if it was my piano or a stereo system in a blind test.
That being said I think you get much closer to the sound of a live piano using an immersive audio system like auro 3D or ambeo than you will with 2 channel stereo.
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My son plays the piano at home (an upright Yamaha) and his teacher uses a Steinway grand piano in his home. I don't think there has been one system capable of recreating the illusion of any piano in my mind. The piano's dynamics and harmonics are tied directly to the room it's in and it's hard to record that with all the spatiality that comes with it. The Steinway is in a smaller living room so it sounds different than our upright which is in a fairly large room and quite a bit more "open".
Current system isn't fooling anyone or maybe I need a new system. :)
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Agreed with most of the comments - piano is tough to reproduce - especially if the score uses the full range from the bottom to top octave, and silent to loud. But that also makes it a great reference when comparing systems!
At last year's Axpona, they had someone play the piano in one of the corridors. Far from an acoustically good room (but neither are the hotel rooms) but when I had a chance I kind of used that to rebase my reference point when listening to different systems. Kind of how some people smell some coffee beans or similar when trying out perfume fragrances. :D
Another challenge is that it sounds different when I'm sitting and playing the piano myself vs hearing someone else playing it - and that is before taking into consideration the different sounds from different piano brands, sizes, placements, etc. as someone mentioned.
For scores/songs with middle of the range tones (so ignoring the lows and the really high notes), I have had good experience with speakers that have more of an omni radiation pattern as long as the room is big. One example is large DML speakers that vibrates in a similar fashion as the piano soundboard.
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Almost forgot - thanks Russel for sharing your recording experience and links to your work! I always learn something new!!
firedog - thanks for sharing the examples of good recordings. Please share more :-)