AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: Audiophile58 on 22 Apr 2015, 11:28 am
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I wanted to bring to your attention a very good article regarding Loudspeakers and Evil crossovers. The biggest reason many people in the past don't use crossover less Loudspeakers is for in the past the weak magnets and cheaper paper cones were used or plastic and the sound stage was not as big,or sound pressure levels were very limited
that is why you would see small amplifiers in a smaller room setting or moderate music playing level ,That Outdated mentality is still passed around by many who have never heard a top quality single driver loudspeaker such as Omega.This is why Many of Today's Audiophiles mainly buy on recommendations of magazine based reviews ,which I know first hand that $$ Money leads to getting many times a favorable review .You rarely ever see a big name company that spends well over
$100K a year in advertising get anything said negative .Even on-line there is at least one Big name that has gotten away from their roots. It is OK to read a review but let your Ears decide where to spend your monies. This is where Today's Crossover less speaker comes in Omega Loudspeakers by far in my vast Audio experience gives not only Fantastic design and old world cabinet craftsmanship only seen in $$ Very expensive speakers. The use of Hemp cone fiber used by some of the best in Pro Audio Tubby tone Bass comes to mind. which has a natural slightly warm character but still incredibly fast and light.Louis at Omega has spent many years of constant R&D progression today's Crossover less speakers,-Not off the shelf variants like Zu for example which BTW I have owned .These new drivers have several big advantages over multi driver speakers.They are much more efficient
for example a 93 db Loudspeaker vs a 87 db Loudspeaker you would need 10x the amplifier power,6db just to get to the same output @ 1w. I have owned every type of Loudspeaker made over the years and now came back to Omega for the Sonic purity is second to none.I went from a 300 wpc amp to now a 18wpc Jas Bravo SET amp and the purity with the Omegas is You are there with the performers .This is now a much more Pure sonic approach without all the power robbing as well as the original signal purity lost going through a Xover Inductor coil, Multiple Capacitors ,then resistance variance with Resistors, all that changes the Original signal that is even before it reaches the driver
then multiples drivers ,each one presents other sonic issues . With a Single Driver you are getting the Original signal which is Time and Phase accurate . meaning the sound
are 1st order the High frequency as well as the critical Midrange-Midbass reach your ears at the Same Time !! This is why it has that Realism and Accuracy. If you want full range Low Bass just buy a deep Hemp Powered Sub to get the last 1.5 octaves . Check out this review from Audiophile review, http://audiophilereview.com/reference-speakers/crossovers-are-evil.html They mention using a digital crossover ,but what they don't mention is that it robs the sonic purity from the Analog signal . I own the Omega Outlaw 1.5 , Now waiting-Seems like Forever - on MY Alnico XRS6 Monitors. For the Exact model recommendation for your musical taste, Room size and equipment used, Louis is the man that will get the right speaker and or sub combination for you .
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Apparently you also feel that punctuation is evil.
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To All my message is about the negatives of the Less is more approach in Crossoverless speaker design.
My punctuation - grammar could be much better I agree, that being said It is the message about A specific Audio subject I am trying to make please excuse any of my errors, Thank you.
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It has less to do with grammar and punctuation per se and more to do with being able to actually read the paragraphs. You've posted what is commonly referred to as a "wall of text" that is all but unreadable on a computer screen.
For better legibility, add some paragraphs breaks for the reader.
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You've posted what is commonly referred to as a "wall of text" that is all but unreadable on a computer screen.
For better legibility, add some paragraphs breaks for the reader.
+1
If you did, I would actually consider reading it.
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There's lots of ways to skin a cat, the issue with crossovers being they can be difficult to design and parts that maintain the integrity of the signal are expensive. So you must build with multiple drivers, a more complicated cabinet and add expensive crossover parts. If you look at it like that, then it's apparent how Omega is capable of delivering the kind of value they are known for. IME, it takes a very expensive and well designed multi-way speaker to compete.
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Oh, come on, guys. I taught EFL for nearly twenty years and I was able to read it even though I lost track of lines twice. Look beyond the errors and/or format to find the passion of the writer.
Audiophile58,
It's all good. I understand your intent and your passion. :thumb:
I'm going to listen to Omega speakers in CanadaRob's showroom in under two weeks. Perhaps I will come to understand why you are so passionate about Louis's speakers. :)
Enjoy!
Michael
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+1 mresseguie
It isn't that hard to follow. Besides, this is a forum. It's not like the OP is trying to communicate to a higher authority or is interviewing for a job where proper grammar, punctuation, and sentence formulation is paramount.
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They mention using a digital crossover ,but what they don't mention is that it robs the sonic purity from the Analog signal .
While I do have 2 pairs of single driver, cross over-less speakers, and enjoy them immensely, could you explain this a little bit?
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Apparently you also feel that punctuation is evil.
Nice and true I could not agree more the only thing more annoying is when people use all caps all the time boy is that really annoying and another thing is when everything is not formatted properly so that the page breaks do not occur where they should making it really hard to read the entire thing plus run on sentences are really difficult to deal with because what the hell are you saying and why are you taking so long to say it I mean we are human beings not gods so we cannot divine where and when to delineate your ideas it is your responsibility to make sure things are properly delineated and clearly understandable or we will just think that you are a bit of a babbling idiot and not take time to read what you wrote or come to the conclusion that what you say is wrong even if it is right which is why you really want to focus in on this area and make sure you are following proper grammar rules because you don't want people to dismiss what you have to say just because of how you write and not based on what you write. See?
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Quote from: Audiophile58 on Today at 04:28:48 am (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134101.msg1423179#msg1423179)
"I wanted to bring to your attention a very good article regarding Loudspeakers and Evil crossovers. The biggest reason many people in the past don't use crossover less Loudspeakers is for in the past the weak magnets and cheaper paper cones were used or plastic and the sound stage was not as big, or sound pressure levels were very limited that is why you would see small amplifiers in a smaller room setting or moderate music playing level.
That Outdated mentality is still passed around by many who have never heard a top quality single driver loudspeaker such as Omega. This is why Many of Today's Audiophiles mainly buy on recommendations of magazine based reviews, which I know first hand that $$ Money leads to getting many times a favorable review. You rarely ever see a big name company that spends well over $100K a year in advertising get anything said negative. Even on-line there is at least one Big name that has gotten away from their roots. It is OK to read a review but let your Ears decide where to spend your monies.
This is where Today's Crossover less speaker comes in Omega Loudspeakers by far in my vast Audio experience gives not only Fantastic design and old world cabinet craftsmanship only seen in $$ Very expensive speakers. The use of Hemp cone fiber used by some of the best in Pro Audio Tubby tone Bass comes to mind, which has a natural slightly warm character but still incredibly fast and light. Louis at Omega has spent many years of constant R&D progression today's Crossover less speakers, Not off the shelf variants like Zu for example which BTW I have owned.
These new drivers have several big advantages over multi driver speakers. They are much more efficient, for example a 93 db Loudspeaker vs a 87 db Loudspeaker you would need 10x the amplifier power, 6db just to get to the same output @ 1w. I have owned every type of Loudspeaker made over the years and now came back to Omega for the Sonic purity is second to none. I went from a 300 wpc amp to now a 18wpc Jas Bravo SET amp and the purity with the Omegas is You are there with the performers. This is now a much more Pure sonic approach without all the power robbing as well as the original signal purity lost going through a Xover Inductor coil, Multiple Capacitors, then resistance variance with Resistors, all that changes the Original signal that is even before it reaches the driver then multiples drivers, each one presents other sonic issues.
With a Single Driver you are getting the Original signal which is Time and Phase accurate, meaning the sound are 1st order the High frequency as well as the critical Midrange-Midbass reach your ears at the Same Time !! This is why it has that Realism and Accuracy. If you want full range Low Bass just buy a deep Hemp Powered Sub to get the last 1.5 octaves.
Check out this review from Audiophile review, http://audiophilereview.com/reference-speakers/crossovers-are-evil.html (http://audiophilereview.com/reference-speakers/crossovers-are-evil.html) They mention using a digital crossover, but what they don't mention is that it robs the sonic purity from the Analog signal. I own the Omega Outlaw 1.5, Now waiting - Seems like Forever - on MY Alnico XRS6 Monitors. For the Exact model recommendation for your musical taste, Room size and equipment used, Louis is the man that will get the right speaker and or sub combination for you."
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While I do have 2 pairs of single driver, cross over-less speakers, and enjoy them immensely, could you explain this a little bit?
I'm not the OP but can address this.
A digital xover general refers to one that goes before amplification in the chain. Since a defined frequency range is presented to the amplifier and the amplified signal does not pass through any further electronics, this is greatly preferable to using crossovers between the amp and speakers. Disadvantages of speaker level xo's are well known on this forum.
So far so good.
But, if you have a favorite DAC, the digital crossover would handle the signal after it. This means the digital xo would have its own DAC do the decoding (for the second time, unless you remove your favorite DAC from the system) and therefore affecting the analog signal generated by your carefully chosen DAC. The way around this is to find a digital crossover that has DAC functions to your liking, if that's possible.
Taking "it robs the sonic purity from the Analog signal" further ..... If you are playing an entirely analog system, eg, turntable, you are now introducing digital conversion (ADC => DAC) into a signal path that was purely analog.
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There are line level crossovers or filters that do not digitize the signal, but many of them suck db's out of the signal. This is important with low wattage SET amplification as there often isn't that much to spare. I've tried Harrison FMODs (sucked out 10db!!) and a Paradigm X-30 subwoofer control that has a high pass filter (sucked out 4db's). If money weren't a concern and I was to try another, it would be the First Watt B4. Infinitely flexible in its frequency and slope configuration, but not cheap at $1500 MSRP. I don't know the insertion loss for this unit. I would hope it would be minimal given that it is Nelson Pass' design (http://www.firstwatt.com/b4.html).
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My solution will be to follow the great tip offered by my amplifier's designer, Dennis Had. He told me how to insert a single resistor in each channel - within the amp itself - that would slowly roll off the signal below 110Hz. This will allow me to make better use of mid-bass woofers (50hz up to 200hz) and subwoofers (below 50hz). More on this project to follow in a bit.
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The main reason is the high distortion and limited bandwidth of a single driver driven fullrange is a pretty big issue to some....
Regards..
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I don't believe I've ever heard Omega speakers but I have heard a number of single driver speakers of different designs and they can sound excellent.
But you could write a big paragraph (or 6 smaller paragraphs, thanks srb) that are just as convincing as to why multi-way speakers are better...
All speaker designs are a set of compromises; you just need to pick the ones that best suit what you're looking for.
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The main reason is the high distortion and limited bandwidth of a single driver driven fullrange is a pretty big issue to some....
Check out any current Omega and you might change your mind.
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Check out any current Omega and you might change your mind.
+ :thumb:
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My solution will be to follow the great tip offered by my amplifier's designer, Dennis Had. He told me how to insert a single resistor in each channel - within the amp itself - that would slowly roll off the signal below 110db. This will allow me to make better use of mid-bass woofers (50hz up to 200hz) and subwoofers (below 50hz). More on this project to follow in a bit.
Ummm, I'm not quite following here.... Are you sure Dennis didn't suggest a single CAPACITOR that would roll the signal off below 110Hz? That's the typical method, and in fact, that is a first order crossover. The resistor has a nominal amount of reactance, so it MAY roll the signal a tiny bit - probably less than a dB at 20Hz.
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The topic title say it all, xovers are bad.
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Ummm, I'm not quite following here.... Are you sure Dennis didn't suggest a single CAPACITOR that would roll the signal off below 110Hz? That's the typical method, and in fact, that is a first order crossover. The resistor has a nominal amount of reactance, so it MAY roll the signal a tiny bit - probably less than a dB at 20Hz.
If I were putting a line level filter before the amp's inputs, I would use a capacitor (possibly a resistor as well). This is actually changing the internal design of the amp by adding a resistor soldered to one of the tube socket pins and to ground.
To quote Dennis: "Simply add a 100K , 1/2 watt resistor from pin #6 to ground on the KT-150 tube socket. This will start a natural roll-off internally at 110 Hz with the signal down 3 dB at 60 Hz. This will not change the the output phase angle like adding series caps on the input."
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I don't believe I've ever heard Omega speakers but I have heard a number of single driver speakers of different designs and they can sound excellent.
But you could write a big paragraph (or 6 smaller paragraphs, thanks srb) that are just as convincing as to why multi-way speakers are better...
All speaker designs are a set of compromises; you just need to pick the ones that best suit what you're looking for.
+1
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All speaker designs are a set of compromises; you just need to pick the ones that best suit what you're looking for.
Exactly. The best single drivers do not make as much compromise but there are still laws of physics.
If I were putting a line level filter before the amp's inputs, I would use a capacitor (possibly a resistor as well). This is actually changing the internal design of the amp by adding a resistor soldered to one of the tube socket pins and to ground.
To quote Dennis: "Simply add a 100K , 1/2 watt resistor from pin #6 to ground on the KT-150 tube socket. This will start a natural roll-off internally at 110 Hz with the signal down 3 dB at 60 Hz. This will not change the the output phase angle like adding series caps on the input."
I did not think pin 6 is used?
http://www.tungsol.com/tungsol/specs/kt150-tung-sol.pdf
Usually there is an RC filter between the driver and output stage, here you could change either the R or C to effect a first order rolloff. So maybe he's talking about the grid leak resistor on pin 5?
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All speaker designs are a set of compromises; you just need to pick the ones that best suit what you're looking for.
The problem is that some of the compromises are orders of magnitude larger than others. I guess it all depends on your frame of reference - exposure to a properly designed multi-way loudspeaker, for example.
If anyone hasn't noticed, the article published by the OP's URL is nonsense. There are numerous fundamental misunderstanding made by the author. It's probably not an issue who choose to believe what he's attempting to convey, though.
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I did not think pin 6 is used?
http://www.tungsol.com/tungsol/specs/kt150-tung-sol.pdf
You are correct. He later corrected himself: "Your amp may not have a connection on pin 6 of the output tubes. If that is the case connect the 100K, 1/2 watt resistor from pin 5 of the output tube socket to ground."
I didn't figure anyone would read it at that level to catch it. I didn't edit his original statement to keep from making it complicated. Oh well... can't get anything by this group!
You may be correct about the design rationale, but it quickly gets beyond my comprehension.
BTW, not that it matters, the amp is called an Inspire KT-150 and originally came with those power tubes. It will run many pentodes though. I currently run it with 6V6's.
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Do any of Louis's designs capture the scale and impact of a symphony orchestra at an appropriate volume level?
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As I understand it, anything inserted in the signal path will influence the sound coming from your speakers. By the logic used in the original post, that makes amplifiers evil.
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As I understand it, anything inserted in the signal path will influence the sound coming from your speakers. By the logic used in the original post, that makes amplifiers evil.
Technically YOU are correct.....!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Do any of Louis's designs capture the scale and impact of a symphony orchestra at an appropriate volume level?
I doubt it, but then in my whole life, I've only heard one speaker that came close and that was the Infinity IRS about 30 years ago. They were close, but not quite there.
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My solution will be to follow the great tip offered by my amplifier's designer, Dennis Had. He told me how to insert a single resistor in each channel - within the amp itself - that would slowly roll off the signal below 110db. This will allow me to make better use of mid-bass woofers (50hz up to 200hz) and subwoofers (below 50hz). More on this project to follow in a bit.
This was the part I was scratching my head about. I would need a real quick roll off from 110 db. :lol:
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I'm using a digital high pass crossover set to 50 Hz with a 24 dB slope on my Omegas, for higher SPLs and bass-heavy music it's amazing. It basically eliminates excess excursion caused by trying to reproduce frequencies under the tuning frequency of the bass reflex cabinet. We are getting to a point where DSP based digital crossovers are very transparent and often a better choice vs traditional passive crossovers.
pstrisik, I think it's worth trying to make a crossover out of the interstage coupling cap and grid leak resistor, I have had the parts to do the same with my gear but all you will get is a 6 dB/octave slope so some undesirable low frequency information will still make it to the Omega drivers, but it'll be less and is well worth a shot IMO...
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Check out any current Omega and you might change your mind.
Havent heard Omega's , did they change the laws of physics..? :D, IYO, do they sound better than Magico? Wilson? ML, MG20.7 , Vandies, we maybe looking for something different with respects to sonics, I'm sure they rock your boat, not questioning your enjoyment , the physics is not debatable thou and distortion increases by a factor of 10 with every .10MM of excursion ( If old memory serves me :) ) ..
Regards...
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I doubt it, but then in my whole life, I've only heard one speaker that came close and that was the Infinity IRS about 30 years ago. They were close, but not quite there.
So are you saying that a 7" single driver can do justice to a full orchestra as well as a pair of Sound Lab U-1PXs'?
http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/ultimate-px.html
Not trying to belabor the point but at some point you have to make compromises.
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Havent heard Omega's , did they change the laws of physics..? :D, IYO, do they sound better than Magico? Wilson? ML, MG20.7 , we maybe looking for something different with respects to sonics, the physics is not debatable thou...
Regards...
Agreed and probably not. BUT you are comparing some of the most expensive speakers in the world to a line of speakers that tops out around $3k.
Every speaker makes compromises and the degree of compromise is often determined by cost. Omega offers a speaker with much less compromise for the money spent vs most any other speaker.
Also, the more expensive multi-way speakers generally beat Omegas in terms of SPL output abilities and macro-dynamics, which are not everyone's top priorities. In a small room, listening nearfield at reasonable volumes the list of speakers that will beat Omega shrink quite a bit and DO NOT include anything on your list, imo.
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So are you saying that a 7" single driver can do justice to a full orchestra as well as a pair of Sound Lab U-1PXs'?
http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/ultimate-px.html
Not trying to belabor the point but at some point you have to make compromises.
No, I'm saying that not even the monster Infinity IRS could not quite capture what you hear in a symphony hall when a full orchestra hits the "fff" crescendos. If the Infinity's couldn't do it, I wouldn't think that any of the Omegas could either let alone just about any speaker in existence.
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It depends on room size and listening distance.
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No, I'm saying that not even the monster Infinity IRS could not quite capture what you hear in a symphony hall when a full orchestra hits the "fff" crescendos. If the Infinity's couldn't do it, I wouldn't think that any of the Omegas could either let alone just about any speaker in existence.
Would you grant me the point that the Sound Labs would do a better job with large orchestras than any single driver?
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Havent heard Omega's
In the USA Omegas can be bought on a 30 day trial.
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It depends on room size and listening distance.
And there we get to the crux of it.
There are compromises, and there is the recognition of reality.
As great as the Omega Speakers are, they cannot circumvent the laws of Physics.
It can be said that a large part of their greatness is they don't try to defy Physics.
How large of a standing wave can the average listening room really handle?
How low of a bass wave is physically possible to reproduce before it starts creating more problems then it solves?
The first thing new owners of Omega Speakers report is how clear they sound; sometimes this manifests as a soundstage,
other times as sound layering.
Can a 4 1/2 inch driver play as loud a four drivers; obviously not.
The point is it doesn't try to, and therein lies the magic.
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And there we get to the crux of it.
There are compromises, and there is the recognition of reality.
As great as the Omega Speakers are, they cannot circumvent the laws of Physics.
It can be said that a large part of their greatness is they don't try to defy Physics.
How large of a standing wave can the average listening room really handle?
How low of a bass wave is physically possible to reproduce before it starts creating more problems then it solves?
The first thing new owners of Omega Speakers report is how clear they sound; sometimes this manifests as a soundstage,
other times as sound layering.
Can a 4 1/2 inch driver play as loud a four drivers; obviously not.
The point is it doesn't try to, and therein lies the magic.
Agree (I think).
Volume level is not the only criteria. There are many, many speakers that will play louder than omegas. Omegas will likely sound better than most multiway speakers at lower volumes. And they will very likely excel at imaging over most multiways, certainly those at comparable cost. IMO, if high volume is a primary requirement, single drivers may not be the best choice.
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This was the part I was scratching my head about. I would need a real quick roll off from 110 db. :lol:
Thanks... definitely sloppy proofreading on my part! I'll edit that post.
I'm using a digital high pass crossover set to 50 Hz with a 24 dB slope on my Omegas, for higher SPLs and bass-heavy music it's amazing. It basically eliminates excess excursion caused by trying to reproduce frequencies under the tuning frequency of the bass reflex cabinet. We are getting to a point where DSP based digital crossovers are very transparent and often a better choice vs traditional passive crossovers.
pstrisik, I think it's worth trying to make a crossover out of the interstage coupling cap and grid leak resistor, I have had the parts to do the same with my gear but all you will get is a 6 dB/octave slope so some undesirable low frequency information will still make it to the Omega drivers, but it'll be less and is well worth a shot IMO...
I realize it is a slow roll off, but it will help with minimal cost in $ and in side effects that might negatively affect the sound.
Curious, what is the digital xover you are using? And do you have a DAC upstream from it or do you use digital inputs at the xover? I'm open to the possibility of using one if it would work out for me. My biggest concern is having to substitute the incorporated DAC for the one I have already chosen.
Thanks..........
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Would you grant me the point that the Sound Labs would do a better job with large orchestras than any single driver?
Yes, I'd certainly expect them to.
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Getting back on topic...
There are variations of crossovers that mitigate the evils:
1.) Mid/woofer running full range with just a capacitor added to protect the tweeter;
2.) Active design (a more sophisicated crossover which sends the low voltage split signal to separate amplifiers, one per driver).
Note that Omega uses crossovers: 1.5 way (Outlaw) designs; powered subwoofers; whizzers (which involve a mechanical crossover).
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That Sounds like more evil than not .......
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No it doesn't. JLM's examples are no more evil than typical multi-way speaker designs.
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Getting back on topic...
There are variations of crossovers that mitigate the evils:
1.) Mid/woofer running full range with just a capacitor added to protect the tweeter;
2.) Active design (a more sophisicated crossover which sends the low voltage split signal to separate amplifiers, one per driver).
Note that Omega uses crossovers: 1.5 way (Outlaw) designs; powered subwoofers; whizzers (which involve a mechanical crossover).
I'm approaching my evolving setup as "quad amped". Overkill?
1) Super Alnico Monitors will cover the unblemished-by-crossovers-range of about 150Hz-15KHz (or however high it realistically extends). That's the vast majority of the range. As described earlier, I may do a slow roll off in my amp from 110db down. Or DaveC may convince me to try a digital xover :wink:.
2) Stereo mid-bass woofers self-contained like subs with a plate amp for each. So they will get line level signal from pre-amp and cover 50 - ~150Hz.
3) Subs for 50Hz down.
4) Supertweets with 1st order HPF at 22kHz and their own amp. Behind main speakers facing ceiling.
I currently have a tri-amp. No mid-bass woofs yet. Super 7 XRS alnicos. This approach is really working well so far.
Lewis did a similar thing with his 1.5's. Main driver runs full range just as if in its own cab. Second driver has LPF at 500Hz. So no xovers above 500 where you would notice their effect. -- This changes the speaker to 4 ohms and raises the efficiency to something like 99 with ferrite drivers. With the bass partially unloaded, the extra driver area, and the increased efficiency, this starts to provide a solution for those who want more volume but still want the single driver sound.
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Yeah. I think you're complicating things a bit, unless your goal is a system that plays REALLY loud. But even then, I think you'd get where you want to be, with less complication, by high passing the Alnico Monitors at maybe 100hz-120hz (assuming they'd roll off so they'd be around -6dbs at about 80hz). Then just get the sub(s) to cover the rest.
But, to each their own. Sounds like a fun project regardless.
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That Sounds like more evil than not .......
JLM is correct. Some of the best 2 ways I have heard have just a capacitor between inputs and tweeter. Active design can also work very well with bi-amping etc.
The OutLaw 1.5 uses a coil to cut the lower driver's frequency off below the all important midrange, the Super 7 and Super Alnico use a whizzer cone, hence a "mechanical crossover". The RS5 is a pure single driver and is the Omega speaker that bends most brains and seems to defy conventional logic.
The OP is generally correct. The majority of crossovers do their work somewhere in the midrange region totally compromising the most critical area of a speakers sound. Crossovers can also suck power making it impossible to use some of the best sounding amplifiers in existence, flea and low power, be it tube or solid state.
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Citing poorly designed xovers as proof is pretty disingenuous, tweeters with simple cap only will produce high levels of distortion due to low freq drive and excursion , the difference is very audible , not to mention impedance mag/phase. You can subjectively like a particular setup without reaching , to state a single driver systems dont have phase rotations is also wrong , a well designed xover will produce no midrange colorations or compression and will produce more SPL with less distortions , its only disadvantages, is xover insertion loss , extra cost, more complicated design to work and dynamic compression if poorly selected parts are used , it will require "power" so with flea power advantage single driver with whizzer cone, well , maybe , Small cones also lack percussive energy or "weight " this lack of weight may or maynot impact your liking , it does color the sound and since sound is pretty subjective, thats ok , the science, not so.....
Its also easy for me to hear the splash with dome tweeters from poor xover design with simple cap, i can also hear what it does differently and why some will like it , same with single driver, will you like it , apparently some do ..
enjoy what the single driver does, the xover can be your friend for a different journey....
Regards ...
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Capacitors store energy and I would have thought ideally, they shouldn't be used with realtime music signals.
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There's good and bad examples of every single type of speaker out there, results depend on implementation rather than chosen design philosophy. My point is that to build a multi-way speaker with the same sound quality vs a single driver can get expensive and is far more complicated, and often will not work well with a very simple low powered amplifier. The best speaker I've ever heard is a medium sensitivity 3-way design, likely with a complicated and expensive crossover... but TAD speakers start at $30k and the electronics will push a TAD system well into the 6-figure range.
pstrisik, I am using a Crown XLS amp with dsp built in, the xo is very transparent. For what you are going for a hi-def dsp solution could work very well... I believe HAL here on AC is working on a dsp solution that could also provide FR and impulse correction... I certainly plan on trying that in the near future.
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pstrisik, I am using a Crown XLS amp with dsp built in, the xo is very transparent. For what you are going for a hi-def dsp solution could work very well... I believe HAL here on AC is working on a dsp solution that could also provide FR and impulse correction... I certainly plan on trying that in the near future.
Dave, I don't get the reference to HAL. Is that a company or a person? Is there a section on AC to find this?
I have a Crown XLS 1500 that I'm using to power my supertweeters. I see that I could do a high pass at ~150. But I would have to use the Crown as the amp. I would be nice if it had pre outs so I could experiment using it as a digital xo only.
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I don't get the reference to HAL. Is that a company or a person? Is there a section on AC to find this?
HAL's MS-3 Music Server and dspMusik 6x8 DSP crossover and HiRez DAC's (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132170.0)
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Yup, that's it srb, thanks!
I have the high pass set to 50 Hz, that's enough to cut out the frequencies below the tuning frequency of the box that cause excessive excursion and makes it very easy for the sub to blend in. 150 Hz could work but not nearly as easily.
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Yes crossovers if not designed properly can cause issues. Then there is parts quality to go along with such. Louis designs a fine line of products we get that. For everyone like everything else it is personal preference.
For me personally tonality and harmonic structure are key to my decision making. After that scale and size of presentation is another key for me. We all have similar however different desires in selecting a speaker. There is not "better" IMO just different. Saying that the Omega speaker gets the tonality and harmonics pretty darn close to the truth of real music. Listen to a pair and then decide if that is enough for you. Louis keep up the good work.
charles
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Thanks for the link to HAL's dspMusik. It sounds like it could work very well. It uses Wolfson DAC chips which are the same used in my currently preferred DAC (though I know other aspects of DAC design are at least as important). It could even manage all of my four speaker elements (sub, mid-bass, omegas, supertweeters) with better slope than I have been looking at.
$1500 though. And sounds like it has to be programmed before delivery. I don't see that it can be further tweaked by the user - even for crossover points. Though it's a bit difficult to follow in thread format without any consolidated product info. I did read the danville product info.
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There's also the minidsp hd for 1/3 the price...
http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd
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There's also the minidsp hd for 1/3 the price...
http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd
That one looks like it may be worth it just for the fun of playing with it! I've looked at MiniDSP in the past, but haven't taken it seriously due to my wish to keep my own DAC. If its DAC is good, it would definitely be a workable option. I like that I can do as much configuration as I want.
There are also Marchand active analog crossovers for less than $1000.
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And the Nelson Pass unit for $5k... A friend of mine has this unit as an xo for his pipedream line arrays. I want one... :green:
http://www.stereotimes.com/amp021513.shtml
I agree the minidsp may be worth it just to experiment with.
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Thanks for the link to HAL's dspMusik. It sounds like it could work very well. It uses Wolfson DAC chips which are the same used in my currently preferred DAC (though I know other aspects of DAC design are at least as important). It could even manage all of my four speaker elements (sub, mid-bass, omegas, supertweeters) with better slope than I have been looking at.
$1500 though. And sounds like it has to be programmed before delivery. I don't see that it can be further tweaked by the user - even for crossover points. Though it's a bit difficult to follow in thread format without any consolidated product info. I did read the danville product info.
Rich programs it for you to start. It's just to get you started. It has a fairly easy and transparent software that you can tweak to your content. I ran my ribbons and 10 woofers through it first. I sounded great when I played just digital source but the extra ad/da loop for analog playing was not as good. I still got it to handle my woofers. I can change poles, slope, phase, and gain. I can add time correction and eq for optimum room integration. The extra ad/dsp/da loop doesn't seems affect below 300 hz. In fact, the added control has made my bass much better. I can hear the improvement and I can see it in the f/r measurements.
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Rich programs it for you to start. It's just to get you started. It has a fairly easy and transparent software that you can tweak to your content. I ran my ribbons and 10 woofers through it first. I sounded great when I played just digital source but the extra ad/da loop for analog playing was not as good. I still got it to handle my woofers. I can change poles, slope, phase, and gain. I can add time correction and eq for optimum room integration. The extra ad/dsp/da loop doesn't seems affect below 300 hz. In fact, the added control has made my bass much better. I can hear the improvement and I can see it in the f/r measurements.
How do you compensate for the processing delay (ad/dsp/da)? Granted it's probably milliseconds, but still.....
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And the Nelson Pass unit for $5k... A friend of mine has this unit as an xo for his pipedream line arrays. I want one... :green:
http://www.stereotimes.com/amp021513.shtml
I agree the minidsp may be worth it just to experiment with.
I hadn't seen this one before. I wonder how close it is to the First Watt B4. I'll bet that it evolved from the B4 ($1500).
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Rich programs it for you to start. It's just to get you started. It has a fairly easy and transparent software that you can tweak to your content. I ran my ribbons and 10 woofers through it first. I sounded great when I played just digital source but the extra ad/da loop for analog playing was not as good. I still got it to handle my woofers. I can change poles, slope, phase, and gain. I can add time correction and eq for optimum room integration. The extra ad/dsp/da loop doesn't seems affect below 300 hz. In fact, the added control has made my bass much better. I can hear the improvement and I can see it in the f/r measurements.
Very good to know, thanks. Is he doing this just from the forum or does he have a website or alternate outlet?
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Very good to know, thanks. Is he doing this just from the forum or does he have a website or alternate outlet?
HAL stands for Hollis Audio Labs. He has a FB page.
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Agree (I think).
Volume level is not the only criteria. There are many, many speakers that will play louder than omegas. Omegas will likely sound better than most multiway speakers at lower volumes. And they will very likely excel at imaging over most multiways, certainly those at comparable cost. IMO, if high volume is a primary requirement, single drivers may not be the best choice.
Where Omegas shine is what most multi driver speakers cannot do .for Little monies a good SET amplifier
Brings a realism into the room .myself have a Modified Jas Bravo 18 wpc Integrated amp that is you are there in many ways especially the critical midrange . The top end nor the midbass is rolled off.i do use a powered Subwoofer to augment the last 1.5 octave. This setup will do something's No multi drive can duplicate in,midrange realism.SET amps rule in that respect .Try it you will like what it can do.
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Why would it image better , what makes one speaker image better than another? How can a small single driver box have more realism than a large multi driver setup ..? I understand its all subjective , this imaging thing ....
for the record and IMO large speakers image better than small mini speakers .....
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Why would it image better , what makes one speaker image better than another? How can a small single driver box have more realism than a large multi driver setup ..? I understand its all subjective , this imaging thing ....
for the record and IMO large speakers image better than small mini speakers .....
Others will probably chime in with more complete answers. I have to be quick for now, so will just say it is about a single source of sound waves rather than multiple sources that multiways generate. That "point source" seems to create a more precise image where multiways have to overcome the problem of smearing with electronics.
And my experience is the opposite regarding cabinet size. Smaller gives more advantage for vivid imaging, IMO.
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Why would it image better , what makes one speaker image better than another? How can a small single driver box have more realism than a large multi driver setup ..? I understand its all subjective , this imaging thing ....
for the record and IMO large speakers image better than small mini speakers .....
Dont play dumb you are old monkey in this forrest.
You fully aware fullrange drivers image better why they have any xover.
There is no better parts than Alnico and Hemp cones as used by Louis.
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Why would it image better , what makes one speaker image better than another? How can a small single driver box have more realism than a large multi driver setup ..? I understand its all subjective , this imaging thing ....
for the record and IMO large speakers image better than small mini speakers .....
Hey a.wayne,
In my years on this forum I've never seen you. We all have our opinions and tastes. Here at Omega we like small single drivers and small to medium sized boxes. Seems you like speakers other than what's discussed here, so maybe you should move to a discussion forum where your opinion will fit in better. The whole idea of a forum is to bring different thoughts and ideas to the table, but a negative attitude like yours doesn't fit in here.
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CR. Don't take the bait. A.W. has a history of thread trashing and has no interest in actually learning anything "new." I await him to flame me now.
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Why would it image better , what makes one speaker image better than another? How can a small single driver box have more realism than a large multi driver setup ..? I understand its all subjective , this imaging thing ....
for the record and IMO large speakers image better than small mini speakers .....
Why do point-source speakers have larger sweet spots than big speakers?
Why do large panels have head-in-vice imaging?