[2gumby2]

Gumby,
Are you at all familiar with the sound of any of these tables? Maybe a friend has one or a dealer demo? The reason I ask is that you're used to speed stability of the 1200. Some people need this to enjoy a record and others don't seem as sensitive to this. I prefer direct drive for this reason, although I have a Sota Sapphire. The Sota does some things better than my DDs. This would include weight and solidity of an orchestra. The depth and foundation makes it more real and authoritative in that respect.  But I can't live with the pitch issue. The DD have accuracy in that department that most belts don't. I don't listen to much orchestral music anyway.

People seem to differ dramatically about this. If you're not used to hearing any of these tables, maybe it would be good if you could check it out. I know you want something new or not vintage, but is there any way you could do a little research with your ears?
neo

Actually, I'm not very familiar with belt drive turntables, but they seem to get the most press. I didn't realize there were speed stability issues on the TTs that I was considering. This is definitely something to think about as it seems speed precision would be an important issue in playback. I don't know of anyone in my area that listens to vinyl and the closest Hi-Fi dealer is about 1 1/2 hours from where I live. The last time I was there they had a very limited selection of TTs - a Marantz belt drive and a Denon DD were what they had on display, but not hooked up to any system. Perhaps I should just be content with my Technics DDs.

[Wayner]

Belt drive tables with high mass platters do not suffer from pitch variations, as light weight tables, may. There is simply too much mass (and inertia) to get the usual speed variant. Belt drive tables almost always have synchronous motors. These motors lock onto line frequency (60 hertz) sine way to control their speed. They are designed this way because voltage will vary and it is not a good speed controlling element of power. The sine wave of the AC voltage never changes by any significant amount.

Therefore, the VPI classic, with it's 25 pound platter would be a great choice for you as it's speed will be steady as a rock. I also have 4 DD turntables, 2 Technics and 2 Sony, and going back and forth between them and my Empire with it's 10 pound platter offers no distraction with speed issues. John the ChairGuy has one, Minn Mark has one. I know John also has DD table(s) and can hear speed changes. Ask them.

In fact, some people claim they can here the speed correction clocking of DD turntables, which is claimed to be vary annoying to some.

Wayner

[tomytoons]

Never a speed issue here especially now with the Rega TTPS and the double pulley I'm using. It would show on any piano recording for sure. I agree though accurate speed is very important.

That Empire sure is nice especially if you like the looks of "retro" ya just gotta find one.

I would love to have the VPI Classic in any form. Big $$$ for the best one.

[TheChairGuy]

Yeah - tis true - the VPI Classic is really solid sounding. No speed or pitch quivering or wavering.

The first and best upgrade for any owner is an outer periphery ring. Not long ago before the Classic - VPI typically told folks the first and best upgrade was a $1200 SDS unit (an outboard speed control that reduced pitch irregularities)

Remarkably - perhaps only bettered by a wee bit by my direct drive tables - pitch issues have been largely banished with the belt drive, VPI Classic. I can only discern the slightest wavering on solo piano pieces - something I listen to a lot of - on all my tables.

John

[Ericus Rex]

...The last time I was there they had a very limited selection of TTs - a Marantz belt drive and a Denon DD were what they had on display, but not hooked up to any system. Perhaps I should just be content with my Technics DDs.

I was quite intrigued by this table when it first came out.  I brought one home from my local Marantz dealer to try.  Then took it back the very next day due to speed issues.  I guess I'm one of the unlucky few who is very sensitive to it.  My 1984 Oracle Alexandria was a far better sounding and performing table than the Marantz/Clearaudio...and they're about 1/3 the price of a new TT-15S1.  This experience is one of the main reasons I say you can get a far, far better older tt than new for the same dough.  If speed is really important to you, I'd recommend looking into a Micro Seiki DDX-1000 (or the more expensive DQX-1000).  They're DD, can support up to 3 arms, sound great and are just plain fun!  And they can be had for under $1K with a quality arm.  I had one and used it with a Micro Seiki CF-1 arm.  Kinda regret that I sold that one actually.  But I had four tt's at the time and well.......

[Ericus Rex]

Did you see this Micro Seiki in the classifieds?

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99721.msg1004695;topicseen#new

It is belt drive but has a medium mass platter so should be very stable.  This table will smoke anything available new for double his asking price.  Beautiful too!  The arm is the same thing as the CF-1 I had on my DDX-1000.  Comes with cartridge!

[neobop]

Gumby already said he doesn't want a vintage table. Price for new seems to be around $1500 or less? So that rules out a Classic. My Sota has a 14lb platter, or something like that. It's ceramic with lead underneath, like some VPI. Maybe if I got a controller/regulator for the power supply, it would be OK for me. It's OK for many others just the way it is. People are different in this respect. I had a LP12 in the mid '80s before some of the upgrades. It ran about 1% fast and gave it a lively sound. I got used to it but eventually noticed that pitch was different on other tables. I switched to a Goldmund DD and it's been DD for me ever since.

I don't even know if this will be an issue. Because OP had been listening to DD for the past number of yrs, it could be. You get used to certain aspects of performance. Certainly it will affect some and not others. Hence the questioning and recommendation to listen for himself. I am not familiar with the new tables being discussed. All I can say further is that I saw a slightly used Classic for $1800. They don't come around often though.
neo

[doug s.]

Actually, I'm not very familiar with belt drive turntables, but they seem to get the most press. I didn't realize there were speed stability issues on the TTs that I was considering. This is definitely something to think about as it seems speed precision would be an important issue in playback. I don't know of anyone in my area that listens to vinyl and the closest Hi-Fi dealer is about 1 1/2 hours from where I live. The last time I was there they had a very limited selection of TTs - a Marantz belt drive and a Denon DD were what they had on display, but not hooked up to any system. Perhaps I should just be content with my Technics DDs.

unless you go to used/wintage, at your budget, i'd stick w/what you already have...

doug s.

[2gumby2]

unless you go to used/wintage, at your budget, i'd stick w/what you already have...

doug s.

doug s. - Good advice I think. I should probably try to get some exposure to some belt drives before I go out and spend $1,500 and possibly have buyer's remorse afterward. I'm not in a hurry.

[doug s.]

doug s. - Good advice I think. I should probably try to get some exposure to some belt drives before I go out and spend $1,500 and possibly have buyer's remorse afterward. I'm not in a hurry.

that's why i recommend the wintage empires - get one nicely set up for <$500, if you are a prudent shopper, and it will be at least as nice as anything new under $2k, imo.  w/belt drive, nice heavy balanced perimeter-weighted platter, and killer pabst motor; the empires are hard to beat for the money...

there are ways to tweak the technics too, ya know.

killer arms (can also be mounted to empires):
http://www.audiomods.co.uk/
http://www.tonearm.co.uk/tonearm.htm

to mount these arms to technics decks:
http://www.tonearm.co.uk/dj_technics_armboard.htm
http://www.soundsupports.com/page16.htm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160659721590

o-l p/s upgrades for the technics:
http://www.tonearm.co.uk/technics_sl1200_1210.htm

doug s.

[Wayner]

I think lots of the mods for Technics decks are just a great way to relieve you of your money. Sticking a modded Rega (Origin Live) arm or a Jelco just isn't going to the change the sound of the system that much, and after it is all said and done, your out some big cash, and not much change. IMO, the Technics arms are pretty good. After all, they've made about 3 million of them. It's the synergy of the system that produces the final sound, after all. Changing the sound doesn't mean it's better, it's just different. I believe that John, TheChairGuy tried an Origin Live tonearm on his Technics, and it a disappointment.

I am saving money right now for a VPI Classic, perhaps the Classic 3. It's lots of money, but I believe it will crush any of these mods, certainly it is way better then any of the "plastic" turntables offered by ClearAudio, Music Hall or Thorens.

I'm listening to my Empire right now, and I know that the only deck out there, at least for me, that would best what I'm hearing now is the VPI classic series. There just isn't anything else like it. Massive platter, superior motor, massive plinth, great 10.5" tonearm. These are all the ingredients for an LP playback that is at the next level.

Mods are some DIYer's hope that he can spend just a little money and get great results. The fact is, it's a long shot at best. You get what you pay for.

Wayner

[rcag_ils]

I'm listening to my Empire right now, and I know that the only deck out there, at least for me, that would best what I'm hearing now is the VPI classic series. There just isn't anything else like it. Massive platter, superior motor, massive plinth, great 10.5" tonearm. These are all the ingredients for an LP playback that is at the next level.

Not even your VPI 19 Jr? Empire was a good deck in it's time, and still outperforms some of today's average decks. But I have a few decks in my inventory that can outperform or at least at the same level as the Empire. My Sonographe SG-3 with a Grado gold for one, my Systemdek with a Grado black is another. Maybe if I replaced my Sumiko Oyster on my Empire would make it sound better. The problem with Empire is the motor noise,  but with good new isolators, they can tame the motor noise way, way, way down. Most Empires out there still have their 50 years old motor isolator which will let the motor noise to muck up the sound.

[TheChairGuy]

I think lots of the mods for Technics decks are just a great way to relieve you of your money. Sticking a modded Rega (Origin Live) arm or a Jelco just isn't going to the change the sound of the system that much, and after it is all said and done, your out some big cash, and not much change. IMO, the Technics arms are pretty good. After all, they've made about 3 million of them. It's the synergy of the system that produces the final sound, after all. Changing the sound doesn't mean it's better, it's just different. I believe that John, TheChairGuy tried an Origin Live tonearm on his Technics, and it a disappointment.

I am saving money right now for a VPI Classic, perhaps the Classic 3. It's lots of money, but I believe it will crush any of these mods, certainly it is way better then any of the "plastic" turntables offered by ClearAudio, Music Hall or Thorens.

I'm listening to my Empire right now, and I know that the only deck out there, at least for me, that would best what I'm hearing now is the VPI classic series. There just isn't anything else like it. Massive platter, superior motor, massive plinth, great 10.5" tonearm. These are all the ingredients for an LP playback that is at the next level.

Mods are some DIYer's hope that he can spend just a little money and get great results. The fact is, it's a long shot at best. You get what you pay for.

Wayner

Yup - the Technics SL-1200 bought came in with a smashed Technics arm (smashed in transit to me...I simply didn't complain given that I won the ebay auction on this former DJ deck for $125) so I had no comparison with the stock arm to begin.

Nonetheless, I set out to 'improve' the SL-1200 Mk. II and came away with the conclusion that money is better spent on other matters.

I removed the stock tonearm assembly and can configure mine with both Rega and Linn/JELCO mount arms...and I did.  An AQ PT-6, a totally modded Rega RB250 (re-wired & aftermarket brass stub) and even a $2000 Origin Live Illustrious MkII tonearm was tried.  Ok, but not great hifi was the result.

Then, I figured, it was the motor.  So, I bought the $400-odd outboard motor and strobe disabler from KAB.  It improved....but it was still outclassed by my $100 JVC QL-F6 filled with modelling clay.

I messed with the feet; I messed with the platter mat and added a heavy inner ring.  To little avail.

There was only one upgrade I didn't try - that of replacing it with one of the pricey main bearings available today for the TT - but, I had sunk $2500 into the deck (using the OL Live tonearm) and I was barely getting acceptable fidelity from it.

For that same money - the VPI Classic trounces it up and down.  I've got one and it's superb. 

Right now I'm listening to the top-of-the-line JVC QL-Y66F from 1985....and while it plays better than the Technics with all the upgrades....it's just a little less sweet than the sounds that the VPI Classic makes.

Wayner - save your pennies - the spendy $2750 for a new VPI Classic is worth the money for what turntables cost these days   

[Wayner]

Not even your VPI 19 Jr? Empire was a good deck in it's time, and still outperforms some of today's average decks. But I have a few decks in my inventory that can outperform or at least at the same level as the Empire. My Sonographe SG-3 with a Grado gold for one, my Systemdek with a Grado black is another. Maybe if I replaced my Sumiko Oyster on my Empire would make it sound better. The problem with Empire is the motor noise,  but with good new isolators, they can tame the motor noise way, way, way down. Most Empires out there still have their 50 years old motor isolator which will let the motor noise to muck up the sound.

My Empire 598 mkIII motor gromments are in perfect condition and there is zero motor noise. It has once again, become my everyday deck. I wonder how many thousands of hours are on her?

Wayner 

[gprro]

Anyone have feedback on these? Denon dp-A100, Looks nice, on sale, vintage style direct drive with modern manufacturing. Includes a cart, looks like an upgraded version of the 301. I kind of want one...
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-41061-denon-dp-a100-100th-anniversary-turntable.aspx

[neobop]

Something to think about, eh Gumby? It's the Empires that inspired HW to build the Classic. Despite all the cool ideas, only you know if you have the time and inclination to start a project or deal with a vintage table. Things like shipping damage or missing/broken parts (always possible), can be time consuming and frustrating. Did you buy your KAB already modded by Kevin?

Owning the stock 1200 puts you in a good position. You can probably sell it now for more than you paid? I wouldn't doubt it now that it's been discontinued. Maybe when you get the opportunity, or make the opportunity, you'll be able to check out some of the tables you're considering. Nothing is perfect (including the Classic) and I think you need to find out what you like. Some Classic owners aren't crazy about the arm and say only certain carts sound good with it.

You could always jump in and buy something. Maybe you'd like the Rega. If you got it and didn't like it, it might be hard to recoup your money selling used. If you put it on a charge card with Needle Dr, you could probably return or exchange. I would suggest asking about this first. Buy it from an reputable dealer and use the card, not paypal. I know ND exchange things, but I don't know all their policies. If you use your card they don't have much choice. You can always cancel the charge.
neo

[doug s.]

I think lots of the mods for Technics decks are just a great way to relieve you of your money. Sticking a modded Rega (Origin Live) arm or a Jelco just isn't going to the change the sound of the system that much, and after it is all said and done, your out some big cash, and not much change. IMO, the Technics arms are pretty good. After all, they've made about 3 million of them. It's the synergy of the system that produces the final sound, after all. Changing the sound doesn't mean it's better, it's just different. I believe that John, TheChairGuy tried an Origin Live tonearm on his Technics, and it a disappointment.

I am saving money right now for a VPI Classic, perhaps the Classic 3. It's lots of money, but I believe it will crush any of these mods, certainly it is way better then any of the "plastic" turntables offered by ClearAudio, Music Hall or Thorens.

I'm listening to my Empire right now, and I know that the only deck out there, at least for me, that would best what I'm hearing now is the VPI classic series. There just isn't anything else like it. Massive platter, superior motor, massive plinth, great 10.5" tonearm. These are all the ingredients for an LP playback that is at the next level.

Mods are some DIYer's hope that he can spend just a little money and get great results. The fact is, it's a long shot at best. You get what you pay for.

Wayner

interesting comments on the technics mods.  i was simply trying to offer possible upgrades to a deck that gumby already owned.  sounds like it may not be worth the trouble, tho i have read from others that the rega arms are a nice upgrade to the technics.  perhaps there were other issues tcg had w/his technics, after all, it seems to have not been handled gently.  re: the p/s upgrades, again, i dunno about how well the technics will respond to the p/s upgrade, but i do know that the gen-1 o-l p/s mod i did to my oracle made a definitely worthwhile improvement in sound, lowering noise floor, and improving pitch & tone...

i, for one, would prefer to do mods to an empire, instead of a technics.  and, the isolation grommets for the motor, if you happen to have ones that are dried out, are readily awailable on line for ~$15-$20...

re: the vpi classic, i am sure it is a great deck.  but i also believe that mounting a longer arm on an unsuspended empire, damping its plinth w/putty, and building a base like shown on the website i linked earlier would give similar results, w/much less cash outlay.  even if you paid someone else to do all the work:

http://cognitivevent.com/av_empire.html




i believe, that if you are smart, sometimes you can get more than you pay for...  yeah, i am cheap...   

ymmv,

doug s.

[gprro]

I'll add too, that I also have a kab 1200, and was curious about how a lighter, rigid plinth belt drive sounds. Picked up a pro-ject xpression2 with a speed box, and at440 cart. The project had a better upper midrange, female harmonics sounded much better I though, floaty and airy sounding. It has a nimble and snappy sound too. I expect the rega's would have a similar sound. Almost thought it was running faster actually until I measured a couple long tracks with a stopwatch. It was near identical to the sl1200, near enough that my margin of error clicking a stop watch is greater, talking 1/10ths of a second. Swapped the at440 over to the 1200, and that showed the differences with the 1200 pretty easily.  The sl1200 has more weight and drive, but is a little darker and slugish in some areas, though still not bad. I'm actually selling the pro-ject soon if that says anything.

[AudioSoul]

Yup - the Technics SL-1200 bought came in with a smashed Technics arm (smashed in transit to me...I simply didn't complain given that I won the ebay auction on this former DJ deck for $125) so I had no comparison with the stock arm to begin.

Nonetheless, I set out to 'improve' the SL-1200 Mk. II and came away with the conclusion that money is better spent on other matters.

I removed the stock tonearm assembly and can configure mine with both Rega and Linn/JELCO mount arms...and I did.  An AQ PT-6, a totally modded Rega RB250 (re-wired & aftermarket brass stub) and even a $2000 Origin Live Illustrious MkII tonearm was tried.  Ok, but not great hifi was the result.

Then, I figured, it was the motor.  So, I bought the $400-odd outboard motor and strobe disabler from KAB.  It improved....but it was still outclassed by my $100 JVC QL-F6 filled with modelling clay.

I messed with the feet; I messed with the platter mat and added a heavy inner ring.  To little avail.

There was only one upgrade I didn't try - that of replacing it with one of the pricey main bearings available today for the TT - but, I had sunk $2500 into the deck (using the OL Live tonearm) and I was barely getting acceptable fidelity from it.

For that same money - the VPI Classic trounces it up and down.  I've got one and it's superb. 

Right now I'm listening to the top-of-the-line JVC QL-Y66F from 1985....and while it plays better than the Technics with all the upgrades....it's just a little less sweet than the sounds that the VPI Classic makes.

Wayner - save your pennies - the spendy $2750 for a new VPI Classic is worth the money for what turntables cost these days 

      I am sorry, I know Chairguy you are very popular here on AudioCircle but I just can't buy that you tried all those mods and you couldn't get good fidelity from your SL-1200 turntable. So I guess that nullifies the thousands of SL-1200 customers that enthus about the stock and modified versions of that TT. There is something wrong in this equasion.

[gprro]

Check out my post above regarding sl1200 sound. It can be really good. Awesome with some rock records. I too just picked up a jvc qly66f, and with the same at440 and not much set up, its like a sl1200 picked up some of that snap and air the project has. ( I'm kind of newby on set up, need to start a thread about that soon, but the technics and jvc are easy to set overhang) It does show the 1200 has a sound characteristic. The chimes at the beginning of time on dark side of the moon's "time" sound slightly brighter in a good way. I'm curious to try one of the cheaper bearing replacements for the 1200 though.