Are there really folks that prefer CD's sonically?

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 11 Apr 2009, 02:19 pm »

I know the question is a loaded one in a Vinyl Circle, but it doesn't fit really anywhere else these days at AC.

I get that CD/redbook tends to be more reliable and undoubtedly simpler and doesn't have needle replacements to bother with, tonearm tinkering, significant cleaning rituals, etc...but, do folks out there actually prefer CD in all instances over vinyl gear?

I listen to vinyl, CD, DVD-A (a nice advance in digital technologies I have found)...but, without some measure of vinyl listening, my system lacks enjoyment

I've tried to do without vinyl for a time, but found it was the worst 4 years of my musical listening life

If I had not rediscovered vinyl after 4 years I would've downsized my system to nothing and dropped out. Finding a format, despite it's flaws, that mimic'ed the real live event is the only thing that matters to me (and it seems a growing cadre of you here at the Vinyl Circle

)

I know that the inherent $%^@^#@ hassle of vinyl turns off some/many...but, are there those out there that actually prefer, sonically, CD to vinyl for musical content?

John /

Mariusz · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 02:45 pm »

I love listening to music period.
But you are right - Vinyl is kind of special.

Mariusz

WGH · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 03:57 pm »

Lately it depends on the recording. Until recently, vinyl had always beat a CD in sound quality. Digital had always sounded flat, it was great for background music but when I wanted to plop down in the sweet spot and enjoy a recording I always choose vinyl.

Then I ripped all my CD's to .wav files and put together a HagUSB converter to try out streaming files to a DAC. That got rid of the first weak link, the CD transport.

The stand-alone DAC got rid of the second weak link, the inferior DAC's put into affordable CD players.

The first DAC I tried was a California Audio Labs System 1. A great sounding DAC that will still compete with DAC's made today but it has a mechanical click between songs as the muting relay locks onto the next data set. I still use the CAL DAC in my shop.

The second DAC was a Scott Nixon Tube DAC with 3XAC power supply. It was pleasant, reserved, and ultimately boring.

The third DAC was the new Van Alstine Insight, it was slightly better than the CAL but tonally the mid-range seemed light to a (very) small degree.

The fourth DAC is a Van Alstine Insight+, actually the same DAC as the one above but with the op-amp upgrade chips. The mid-range thinness is gone, there is even more controlled bass and the final sound compares very favorably to vinyl. Digital now has the same three dimensional soundstage as vinyl.

I can happily listen to either format now because there is more difference in the quality of the recordings than which tool I use to play them.

Wayne

ZLS · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 03:57 pm »

Would you consider a Hard Drive based computer system as part of this discussion?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 04:15 pm »

Interesting Wayne...given your true dedication to vinyl, I find your post impressive and persuasive.

I find that CD playback is impressively honest now using the wacky Dakiom Feedback Stabilizers...but, it still lacks 3 dimensionality that screams real. I have for some time figured I'd one day buy something from Frank van Alstine, so maybe this will be the time to try

Then again, I've read over time the inherent advantages of vinyl are lost as we age and hearing declines...so maybe the two are coinciding for all of us at some point

ZLS - everything counts...CD and hard drive sound much the same to me once you damp the CD/disc and have a relatively jitter free player at hand. That's what I've found, at least.

John

Quote from: WGH on 11 Apr 2009, 03:57 pm

The fourth DAC is a Van Alstine Insight+, actually the same DAC as the one above but with the op-amp upgrade chips. The mid-range thinness is gone, there is even more controlled bass and the final sound compares very favorably to vinyl. Digital now has the same three dimensional soundstage as vinyl.

I can happily listen to either format now because there is more difference in the quality of the recordings than which tool I use to play them.

Wayne

rajacat · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 04:25 pm »

John,

Try this free high definition download.http://www.hdtracks.com/

Perhaps you should audition cutting edge digital audio such as the Modwright Transporter, the various offerings by Empirical Audio or a modded Squeezebox and power supply.

As you can see here lots of very experienced audiophiles with $$$$ are excited about the Modwright Transporter. I suspect that many of these 'phools have high end vinyl rigs.http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.0

CD players will soon be obsolete.

-Roy

JoshK · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 05:28 pm »

First, I admit that I am still relatively inexperienced with vinyl. My vinyl rig has been down as long as I've had it up since owning it. That said...

I have said some of this before. I don't think it is black and white to me. Most of my best sonic recordings are not on vinyl. Most of the best sound I've had in my rig has not been vinyl. I have a number of recordings that I have on both formats and more often the CD version rules. I don't find like many that vinyl is more 3D for those recordings, more the other way around. Could this mean my table is not properly set up. It could, but I doubt it is that, lots of care was taken.

I just think it really comes down to music style and even more importantly the era of most of your recordings. I find that with recordings I have in both formats there is a strong correlation with which format wins and when it produced. There are exceptions in my collection, but the correlation is still quite there. Sonically good modern recordings most often sound better on CD while any recording oringally recorded prior to 1980 quite often sound dramatically better on vinyl. Then there is the middle land of the 80's to early 90's, where it is a hit and miss and more often than not a lot of my recordings from this era are in CD and sound questionable.

That is my experience and I'm sticking to it.

emac · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 05:34 pm »

Depends on the type of music being played as well. I listen to mostly electronic music, and the intricate and detail oriented types of tracks sound better on CD. Whereas something like the Thievery Corporation and Zero 7, the more organic types of electronic music, are preferable on vinyl.

Tyson · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 05:49 pm »

I don't own a table or any records, I'm entirely PC based, with an "ultimate" Bolder modded Squeezebox. That said, the Teres turntables I've heard simply trounce all digital equipment I've ever heard, from a purely sonic standpoint.

Jon L · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 07:05 pm »

Quote from: rajacat on 11 Apr 2009, 04:25 pm

John,

Try this free high definition download.http://www.hdtracks.com/

Good call on HDTracks 24/96 24/88.2 KHz albums.

I also highly recommend Boston Symphony's 24/88.2 downloads.
http://www.bso.org/bso/shop/productCategories.jsp;jsessionid=OJ1JPIFZKWKKCCTFQMGCFEQ?id=bcat13360032

Played back in native 24/88.2-96 without upsampling nonsense, some of these have opened my eyes WIDE. I was listening to BSO's Mahler 6th and German Requiem, both in 24/88.2, and compared to my previous 44.1 references, and HOLY MOTHER OF DIGITAL, what was once good music is now Compelling Tsunami of Emotion

High Res downloads is and will be the Future

Dan Kolton · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 07:20 pm »

Recently got back into vinyl so I can play fairly extensive collection since Rabco arm finally failed and did in Grado stylus. My system includes Technics SL 1200mk2 (with KAB damper trough), Grado Statement Sonata, AVA Insight and Ultra pre-amps, AVA Insight and Ultra DACs, ATI6012 amp and Orion+ speakers. I also have an ADC XLM, a Denon 103 (with Supex SUT), a Grado G3+ with Gold stylus. In every case that I own both CD and vinyl of the same recording, the CD sounds more real and correct by far. The vinyl is ok, but doesn't quite measure up. Yes, I've aligned the Sonata very carefully using Baerwald), but haven't messed with VTA much yet. My experience is about the same as with the Grado G3+ in the Rabco or my Linn. I nevertheless enjoy the Technics reliability and ease of operation.

charmerci · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 07:37 pm »

I do not miss the inconvenience of vinyl nor the "ssshhhrrrr" background sound.

Granted, for a few years when the record companies re-released their backlog using 24bit remastering, the metallic high end was very disconcerting and I am now very wary about buying 24bit RM CD's. CD's done right don't make me miss records at all.

-Another AVA afficionado.

low.pfile · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 07:45 pm »

I wasn't going to chime it but Dan's comment prompted me. I am new to vinyl (2 years). I have many albums on CD and vinyl too, so I have made comparisons.

Sonically, the resolution I hear on my SL1210 TT is greater than my digital server + NOS DAC (details in sig). CDs ripped to AIFF/WAV. Basically I hear more detail and more body. But not always. When I do.... how much more?....about 20-50%, depending. And I am not wanting in the detail department with my digital music.

Sonically, there are times my digital server is preferred. It's often stated that you can block out the tick and pops from vinyl. I guess that is a developed skill, since I am still not used to it. it distracts me sometimes. So therefore I like the CD/digital playback's lack of these distractions. Then on vinyl, there is the noise during quiet passages, even short ones, CD minimizes or completely removes this. I am satisfied with the amount of soundstage with both mediums they are the same in my system.

When I can listen to uninteruppted music, not having to flip the record, run the brush. CD wins again.

But in the end I agree 200% with Marius...

Quote from: Mariusz on 11 Apr 2009, 02:45 pm

I love listening to music period.
But you are right - Vinyl is kind of special.

Mariusz

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 08:47 pm »

Yep, I think Mariusz summed it up nicely

It's been ~5 years since I've heard a truly bad CD/DVD player...the whole format rose above what I thought it ever could at really low prices. But, there seems to be a ceiling for the format (so far, for me)...it only goes so far in providing musical satisfaction. 3D is missing and I've yet to hear a DAC that changes that (tho I'm still open to one that might)

Pound for pound and dollar for dollar I'm at odds with the vinylphool community (I prefer direct drive over belt at price points below a few $$, I have yet to find a moving coil that fully satisfies, I use a full featured preamp and preferable solid state, my fave cartridges tend to have ample output to run into MM sections directly, I find Grado's make most other cartridges sick, feeble and fake in comparison, the Technics SL-1200 is a fine US$500-1000 table but falls short of ideal after this $$ outlay, etc).

Nonetheless, vinyl is very special when you tap into it in a way that pleases your particular senses

John

Derockster · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 09:01 pm »

Hi,I must say I agree with John in many regards.
1) Vinyl is special
2)The sl1200 is an ok player not fantastic
3)I too am a MM fan
4)I also use a full featured preamp that being an AVA pas4i
5)Grados were my favorite cartridge until I heard the ADC XLM 11 now my favorite
6)imo I've heard many well recorded Cds but the 3d is definitely missing

dreockster

satfrat · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 09:05 pm »

Quote from: rajacat on 11 Apr 2009, 04:25 pm

John,

Try this free high definition download.http://www.hdtracks.com/

Perhaps you should audition cutting edge digital audio such as the Modwright Transporter, the various offerings by Empirical Audio or a modded Squeezebox and power supply.

As you can see here lots of very experienced audiophiles with $$$$ are excited about the Modwright Transporter. I suspect that many of these 'phools have high end vinyl rigs.http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.0

CD players will soon be obsolete.

-Roy

I fully agree with you Roy, the only use for CD's at this point is to either rip them into my hard drive or burn them for my car. I am totally not into vinyl for any reason. What I now have for computer audio, there's no other medium that can match what I now am listening to,,, but that is considering my musical preferences which leans toward highly detailed and very highly dynamic sound stage. It's not everyone's cup of tea but there's nothing I'd love more than to have other ears hear my system so they could judge for themselves.

My CDP is my HTPC and I'm using an Emperical Off-Ramp 3 w/Superclock, Paul Haynes SR3-12 power supply, Bolder Summit DC cable and Crystal Cable Digit. It's an incredibly musical source IMHO.

I'll apologise upfront to the moderator for posting this in a Vinyl Circle,,, seems like there's a lot of "Are there really folks that prefer" threads lately.

Cheers,
Robin

*Scotty* · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 09:19 pm »

John can you define your term 3D for me? Are you referring to the sound stage or three dimensional quality of an instrument or vocalist in the sound stage? Please elucidate.
I have vinyl I enjoy but not for any intrinsic quality that my CD replay does not possess it's more a problem with availability of the performance on CD.
Unfortunately I can also hear the loss of high frequency transient information due to groove wear on my older recordings.
Scotty

geowak · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 09:33 pm »

I like the CD sound.

I used to own a Thorens TT which I liked, but never took the time to tweak the tonearm or cartridge to get the best sound out of it.

I was in Germany in the 1980's when the CD was first introduced. I had one of the first production Sony CD players and it sound shrill and very crude. As the decades unfolded, CD sound improved by long strides.
Now with seperate DACs, as noted before by other posters, the sound is very smooth, very nice indeed.

I will say the engineering and production quality varies by a very wide margin from CD to CD and that is what makes a bigger difference. A bad CD will sound very poor on a quality playback system and thus conversly, a good CD will sound fantastic on that same sound system.

I do not miss vinyl, but respect those who do.

Freo-1 · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 09:35 pm »

CD, no.

SACD/DVD Audio, yes.

I've several SACD and DVD audio that clearly outperform the vinyl version of the same recording from both a clarity and noise floor standpoint. Some of these recordings are near mirror copies of the original master tape they were created from, something no vinyl rig, no matter how much you spend on it, can quite achieve.

Understand, I'm not putting vinyl down, just stating that SACD/DVD Audio can outperform vinyl. There are sound formats coming that will outperform SACD/DVD Audio.

so, it can only get better.

grenamc · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Apr 2009, 09:58 pm »

I only recently got into vinyl and there are some qualities I really enjoy. As it turns out, I have a MW Transporter as well, so CDs are on the road to nowhere as far as I am concerned. Aside from ripping it to HDD and maybe burning a copy for my car I doubt I will ever spin a CD again. I recently got a chance to A/B "OK Computer" on my MW and my dirt cheap TT. It was a remaster, so it wasn't an identical pair of recordings. That being said, I found the LP to uncover a lot of details that were more obscure on the MW, which could have easily been the remastering at play. As far as 3D soundstage and organic/natural tone quality you guys need to hear a MW Transporter. As much as I love playing my vinyl, somehow Dan Wright has an analog stage that comes incredibly close to making my FLAC files sound like a live performance.

To answer.... I love my digital served music and I love vinyl. It all sounds great and it makes my enjoyment of music (why I do this hobby) that much greater.

-Michael