[Theprivateer]

Hello all, first post here though I've been lurking a while.

I have been running a Project Debut Carbon stock for about a year, and am looking to improve on two areas:
-  Wow and flutter -- it is disconcerting on slow classical especially
-  Sibilant Ortofon Red cartridge -- it is fatiguing and comes across slightly unrefined[/li][/list]

I have two options:

1. Add a Speedbox S ($129) and an Ortofon Blue (~$200) and perhaps an acrylic platter ($129) ==> $460

2. Sell the Project and upgrade to a used midrange table with the funds from the sale + a bit extra

As you can tell, my budget is around $400, so buying a new upgrade doesn't make sense.
I have grown to love my Debut Carbon much, but am also wary of sinking money into it when I could provide myself a path to further upgrades.

Seeking the advice of the experienced folks around here!

[Minn Mark]

What phono stage are you using?  I've got an older Debut III (no carbon arm, Ortofon 5 cart) and don't find it sibilant. I run an Ortofon 2m Red on two of my other tables and don't find them sibilant. Since you do, perhaps a tubed phono stage like a Bellari might give you tone you'd prefer?  I don't use a Speed box but I've read others comment that it does improve the overall sound and performance.  I have wanted to try the acrylic platter myself, so please post your outcome whatever your upgrades; it will be interesting to read.

Good Luck,

Mark

[Letitroll98]

AFAIK the Red and the Blue have the same motor so you could just upgrade the stylus, much cheaper.  The speedbox is a great upgrade and will help immensely.  That being said, when I was faced with the same choice I upgraded to a used VPI HW19Jr and never looked back.  I don't think you could get that kind of an improvement without going used.  So if staying with new, I'd upgrade your existing table, if willing to go used, older model, look for a substantial brand like VPI.  Hope this helps.

[Wayner]

The terms wow and flutter have been joined at the hips for some time, but each is obviously a different effect. The real culprits are speed variation with in the rotation, and an uneven platter in relationship to the bearing. Records with non-concentric holes will also exhibit this and you can tell simply by watching the tonearm move back and forth during a single rotation event.

The speed controller should help this speed variation problem, but, as I recall, the Pro-ject has a sub-platter to it, so upgrading the platter may not fix that problem if the sub-platter is not flat during rotation. I think to determine that, you should remove the main platter and observe the secondary platter's rotation effects. If an edge appears to move up and down, the sub-platter has a problem, and the new acrylic upgrade platter will not help this.

There is also some concern about the platter shaft and bearing not being "round" or concentric and that could be causing some speed variation too, because the resistance (mechanical) between shaft and bearing may change during a 1 rotation cycle.

You kind of have to do a little experimenting with that, or at least observe what you can. A strobe disc under fluorescent light would show speed variation, but will not give you a clue if its the motor or the shaft and bearing causing it.

I would remove the sub-platter and look for odd wear marks on the shaft, If there are none, I would then put the sub-platter back on and rotate the table without the platter on and observe for up and down movement of the sub-platter's edge. If that appears straight, put the platter on and observe that again. With luck, a new acrylic platter, along with the speed box will cure all the wow and flutter ills.

Wayner

[neobop]

Hello all, first post here though I've been lurking a while.

I have been running a Project Debut Carbon stock for about a year, and am looking to improve on two areas:
-  Wow and flutter -- it is disconcerting on slow classical especially
-  Sibilant Ortofon Red cartridge -- it is fatiguing and comes across slightly unrefined[/li][/list]

I have two options:

1. Add a Speedbox S ($129) and an Ortofon Blue (~$200) and perhaps an acrylic platter ($129) ==> $460

2. Sell the Project and upgrade to a used midrange table with the funds from the sale + a bit extra

As you can tell, my budget is around $400, so buying a new upgrade doesn't make sense.
I have grown to love my Debut Carbon much, but am also wary of sinking money into it when I could provide myself a path to further upgrades.

Seeking the advice of the experienced folks around here!

Hi Privateer,
Welcome to the monkey house.  Have you tried maintenance?  It might be worth a shot.  Clean the pulley with alcohol and Q tips.  Then put some of that alcohol in the palm of your hand and run the belt through the puddle and use a clean rag to dry.  Do this repeatedly around and on both sides of the belt until clean.   Then do that again except with talc.  Shake off excess.

This should restore original performance or you need a new belt.  If speed stability is still a problem you might want to consider the speed box.   I can't tell at this distance, but it should definitely help and it would add value to the table if you sell.   One of the reasons for this suggestion is the current price of tables, even used.  You can get something for $400, but I'm not sure what.

Letitroll is right about the cart.  The Red and Blue share the same body and you might need a new stylus anyway.  You could even use a Bronze or Black stylus, but they get expensive.  Are you confident the set-up is exact?  VTF and VTA especially impact on sibilance.  You should be tracking at close to 2g.
The Blue stylus is $165.  Maybe a more mellow cart is in order.  What kind of preamp are you using?
neo

[Wayner]

Applying talc to a belt is a technique usually reserved for tables with such low starting torque, that the belt needs to slip to get the platter going, as is the case for AR turntables. Without the talc, these small motors would simply stall out, or take for ever to start up. If your table does not have a start-up issue, then I would not put a slippery substance between the belt and the platter. The higher the motor RPM, the smaller the pulley and a small pulley could cause interactions with the talc and belt.

[Wayner]

On the cartridge issue of sibilant sound (I'm assuming in the inner grooves area), sometimes its cartridge mis-match, but in your case, it could be alignment. So I have to ask which alignment do you have it in, Stevenson, Baerwald (Lofgren A) or Lofgren B? I have also found that VTF plays a key role in this bad behavior. Most cartridge manufacturers give a range for the cartridge, perhaps something like 1.4-1.8 grams. If that's the case, I always shoot right for the middle, so in the example, 1.6 grams would probably be the design weight for the cartridge. While some folks shy away from digital scales, I would not be without mine. You can dial it into the .01 grams if you want to, and in some cases, this is important.

Sibilance can be caused by alignment and improper VTF (or a worn record played repeatedly on a mis-aligned, cartridge).

Wayner

[neobop]

Applying talc to a belt is a technique usually reserved for tables with such low starting torque, that the belt needs to slip to get the platter going, as is the case for AR turntables. Without the talc, these small motors would simply stall out, or take for ever to start up. If your table does not have a start-up issue, then I would not put a slippery substance between the belt and the platter. The higher the motor RPM, the smaller the pulley and a small pulley could cause interactions with the talc and belt.

Applying talc to the belt is done to preserve the belt.  These belts are made of synthetic rubber.  Alcohol, while a practical cleaner, will break down - dry out the rubber.   Talc treats the surface and helps keep it compliant.

The ProJect Debut has a subplatter with a rather large pulley I believe.  I doubt if it has a high torque or high RPM motor.  This is the procedure for cleaning the belt on a Linn LP-12, the prototype for such a pulley/subplatter arrangement.   High RPM and small pulleys often use round belts, tape or string.  Even so, the talc soon wears off and is unlikely to interfere with the drive system.  Cleaning the belt and pulley on the Debut could restore original performance.
neo

[Theprivateer]

Thank for all the helpful replies, they have given me many options and much info to digest!

Phono Stage -- I'm using the built-in phono stage in an Arcam integrated. I have been told it is decent, given the level of my table. Upgrading this is a sure thing but about two steps away as the amp may be changed soon.

Alignment -- using the Project protractor that's provided, not sure which method they apply. I've adjusted and believe I've achieved the absolute best I can with this. VTA is not adjustable but with a thicker mat, this has improved the "sharpness" somewhat. The sibilance is worst on the inner grooves; but shows up elsewhere on loud female vocal, high/sharp strings etc. It is subtle, but I am not a fan of bright equipment, I've gathered. As neobop suggested, adjusting VTF closer to 2 (rather than the 17.5 recommended) did improve this significantly...thanks!

Wow-and-Flutter -- grateful for Wayner's input, I'll look into this excellent info in greater detail.


It seems like a cart/stylus and speedbox upgrade is on the cards for now, if materially better used tables are not within this price range (I guess I can stretch to $600-700).

[Wayner]

Applying talc to the belt is done to preserve the belt.  These belts are made of synthetic rubber.  Alcohol, while a practical cleaner, will break down - dry out the rubber.   Talc treats the surface and helps keep it compliant.

The ProJect Debut has a subplatter with a rather large pulley I believe.  I doubt if it has a high torque or high RPM motor.  This is the procedure for cleaning the belt on a Linn LP-12, the prototype for such a pulley/subplatter arrangement.   High RPM and small pulleys often use round belts, tape or string.  Even so, the talc soon wears off and is unlikely to interfere with the drive system.  Cleaning the belt and pulley on the Debut could restore original performance.
neo

I have found that the best way to clean a belt is with soap and water. I do agree that alcohol and some belt formulations may cause some harm, but how often does the belt get cleaned? For those worried about that, just simply wash the belt off with water and all should be good. Oh, don't forget to clean the edge of the platter that is driven by the belt!!!

I guess we all have different techniques for doing things, but they probably end up with the same results.

If you could measure your protractor that came with your table (using a millimeter scale), measure the inner and the outer null points (from the spindle center point) and I can tell you which alignment they gave you.....

'ner

[Letitroll98]

I'm pretty sure the VTA is adjustable on that arm.  You should see an Allen screw at the base of the arm, maybe two screws, can't remember.  Anyway, loosen the screws and the arm will raise and lower.  Use playing cards under the collar to measure how much you change the setting and to hold the arm steady when tightening the screw(s).

[Minn Mark]

VTA is not adjustable (in any fashion) on the Debut III I have. I do not believe it's adjustable on the carbon version either. One may just the azimuth, but I'd advise against this unless you really know what you're doing.

Mark

[Letitroll98]

I googled it up and you're right Mark.  The Allen screws are on the older model tonearm.  But you can put nylon washers under the mounting screws to raise the arm, but it won't help the op who needs to lower the arm.  Only a thicker mat and/or spacers at the cartridge would help.  Sorry for the out of date info.

[neobop]

It seems like a cart/stylus and speedbox upgrade is on the cards for now, if materially better used tables are not within this price range (I guess I can stretch to $600-700).

Thinking about materially better used tables possibly up to $700.  Yes, they come up once in awhile, but you have to know or find out which ones are really worthwhile.  I'd recommend a vintage direct drive and end the speed variation blues on slow classical music.  In the past month there was a Kenwood KD650 for around $450 on Audiogon and US Audio Mart.  Performance wise, that's a steal.  There's nothing new out there at three times that price that competes.  But you have to be ready to jump.  Then you might want to change your cart to lower compliance.  Something to think about.  Buying a 30+  year old table might also be something to think about.

Concerning this belt business - As long as you have a BD table you have to deal with periodic belt replacement.  They stretch and become worthless.  Cleaning with alcohol as I suggested will shrink it slightly and extend its useful life. 
neo

[Theprivateer]

I wanted to post updates as I go along my upgrade path with the Project Debut Carbon, as I suspect this is a turntable many own and will be looking to improve.
For now:

1. Speedbox – Speed is now stable, and (marginally) more accurate after installing the Speedbox, as measured by the Turntabulator iPhone app. Incredibly, I did notice sound improvement beyond the speed stability issue. It notably gave a fuller sense to the music, essentially tightening up the bass and filling out the lower midrange. I previously always felt the turntable sounded slightly anemic compared to my digital setup (even through a very bright DAC and lean speakers). This fullness has improved balance tremendously and made the brightness+sibilance I mentioned previously less of an issue now. The change upon inserting the Speedbox (and confirmed by an easy A/B test) was significant, and this is coming from a skeptic.

2. Interconnects – The original Project interconnects had horrid quality, loose RCAs. Changing them to monoprice component video cable yielded some improvement but retained a slight muddiness. Now with a set of new Blue Jeans LC-1 cables, the sound gained significantly more coherence, and a more solid soundstage. This isn’t fancy cabling so I suspect it’s really down to the more solid connectors and the right capacitance of wire.

3. Wooden block – The turntable was resting on top of cheap-but-solid Ikea component shelving previously. I moved it to a heavy butcher block (Acacia, if it matters!) resting on the carpeted floor and the sound was instantly transformed, most notably with instruments gaining body and presence (imaging, rather than fullness of sound). Less “messy” sounding, if you will.

4. Cork Mat – This is an old tweak, but I’ll report it anyway. It gave a warmer, richer sound compared to the stock felt mat, which was welcoming, but I realize I was also sacrificing some level of detail. It’s a toss-up at this point, and I do switch between mats depending on the recording. It really is a trade-off at some point, in my system at least.


So far, I’m extremely pleased with the results and this has become a table I’m happy listening to, to the point where I’m starting to think an upgrade to the Ortofon 2M Blue isn’t even warranted. Having said that, one -is- on the way so I will post updates, if there is interest.

[orientalexpress]

just curious,how much did you spend so far on this turntable?sometime u gotta bite the bullet said  . or just buy this http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133480.0 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

That 2M Red cartridge has go to go!  I tried it in my Thorens and it was way too irritating and noisy.  I bought a Nagaoka MP-200 and every thing is better- detail, less background noise and no fatigue.  Bass is better, the sound is warmer but not overly warm and it is more forgiving of surface noise.

I have also heard the 2M Red on a Carbon Debut and I was not impressed.  The TT needs a better cartridge.

I would also consider a better phono preamp in the future.

[Theprivateer]

just curious,how much did you spend so far on this turntable?sometime u gotta bite the bullet said  . or just buy this http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133480.0 

You're right, and this was the very reason for my original post. At retail prices, this current setup would cost about $700 excluding cabling etc.., which brings it close to meaningful upgrade territory.

Having said that, I had a sunk cost in the table already, plus some of the add-ons at a very decent price, so it makes sense for me now to upgrade. As an earlier poster pointed out, the upgrades could be passed on at a reasonable price if I do decide to sell.

Let's see how far this goes...the Teres table is lovely but way out of budget for me right now.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

The Carbon Debut is a good TT and will respond well to a good cartridge and phono preamp.  The 2M Red cartridge is a budget $100 cartridge.  I would not upgrade your TT unless you upgrade to a better cartridge and phono preamp.  You already have the speed box which improved the sound. I don't see the point of upgrading to a $1500-$2k TT if the rest of your system it not on par.   If you still don't like the sound with a higher end cartridge and phono preamp, then sell the rig and keep the upgraded cartridge and you will be set for the new TT.  When I bought my vintage Thorens TD-145 TT I tried it with the 2M Red and thought my digital end sounded much better.  Then I upgraded the cartridge and my jaw dropped at how good things sounded.  I also tried a higher end AVA phono preamp on loan to me and it took my rig to another level. 

[neobop]

I wanted to post updates as I go along my upgrade path with the Project Debut Carbon, as I suspect this is a turntable many own and will be looking to improve.
For now:

1. Speedbox – Speed is now stable, and (marginally) more accurate after installing the Speedbox, as measured by the Turntabulator iPhone app. Incredibly, I did notice sound improvement beyond the speed stability issue. It notably gave a fuller sense to the music, essentially tightening up the bass and filling out the lower midrange. I previously always felt the turntable sounded slightly anemic compared to my digital setup (even through a very bright DAC and lean speakers). This fullness has improved balance tremendously and made the brightness+sibilance I mentioned previously less of an issue now. The change upon inserting the Speedbox (and confirmed by an easy A/B test) was significant, and this is coming from a skeptic.

2. Interconnects – The original Project interconnects had horrid quality, loose RCAs. Changing them to monoprice component video cable yielded some improvement but retained a slight muddiness. Now with a set of new Blue Jeans LC-1 cables, the sound gained significantly more coherence, and a more solid soundstage. This isn’t fancy cabling so I suspect it’s really down to the more solid connectors and the right capacitance of wire.

3. Wooden block – The turntable was resting on top of cheap-but-solid Ikea component shelving previously. I moved it to a heavy butcher block (Acacia, if it matters!) resting on the carpeted floor and the sound was instantly transformed, most notably with instruments gaining body and presence (imaging, rather than fullness of sound). Less “messy” sounding, if you will.

4. Cork Mat – This is an old tweak, but I’ll report it anyway. It gave a warmer, richer sound compared to the stock felt mat, which was welcoming, but I realize I was also sacrificing some level of detail. It’s a toss-up at this point, and I do switch between mats depending on the recording. It really is a trade-off at some point, in my system at least.


So far, I’m extremely pleased with the results and this has become a table I’m happy listening to, to the point where I’m starting to think an upgrade to the Ortofon 2M Blue isn’t even warranted. Having said that, one -is- on the way so I will post updates, if there is interest.

Glad the speed box helped.  That seemed to be your biggest complaint.   Slow classical passages okay now?  Most cork mats are much thicker than the felt.  Is the cart now playing with tail down?  If so it might be the reason for more mellow sound, plus the compliant mat.   I believe Herbie's has a thin mat used as a felt replacement.  Without height adjustment you might want to consider trying different mats of varying thickness. 

The 2M Red now has a substantial following.  I would be interested in what upgrading to the Blue stylus does.  The Carbon arm is very low mass and something like the 2M compliance is recommended, although it might not be your ultimate cart.  A low compliance cart like the MP200 or Clearaudio MM is not the best match.  Next move is upgrading your amp/phono? 

I think a balanced approach is best.  Only you can decide if the record player is satisfactory.  I would not put an expensive cart on the table, but if you want a different sound maybe we can help figure it out.   An expensive cart on an inexpensive player can reveal all the shortcomings and actually sound worse.   Anyway, you're going to be shelling out some green on the amp/phono replacement.  Let us know how it goes.
neo