[Wayner]

Off topic and immaterial to the discussion. Please discuss/defend your statements rather than attempting to divert the thread into personal attacks.

Geary

My statements come from working in industry for 40 years. I understand cost to performance ratios. There was no personal attack, I asked you to defend your prior slam on me. So you either understand manufacturing or you don't.

[Wayner]

Wayner,
You're asking personal questions that are none of your business.  This is a public forum.  Please stick to the subject and the response.

For the record, after I left retail I was cofounder and vice president of American Hybrid Technology, a company which you probably wouldn't approve of. 

There's no way to quantify the price/performance ratio.  What would you do, measure wow and flutter, S/N and subtract the difference?
I once read a post where you said you would like to get a Classic.  I believe you can now get one with a gimbal bearing arm.  I suspect it's a much better value.  Some people aren't looking for value, they're looking for the best.  To each his own.
neo

The ear is the finale judge on how a product performs, certainly not cost. If we were to assume that, then we could all say that your AR mods must sound like fingernails on the chalkboard, right? But I know that they don't, because I have modded several AR tables myself and know that they sound pretty damn good.

The point I'm trying to make is that I think everyone is all giggles about this direct drive table, and until they hear one, they should not be. Back to my point on the Technics DD tables, what would the motors cost if they only made a couple of thousand? The answer is that almost all of us could not afford them.

As most of you know, I basically have a TT lab here, owning many great vintage tables from Empires to VPIs to ARs to some of the best Sonys. For all practical purposes, they all sound the same. Or perhaps I should say they all sound more the same then different. A $30,000 table from anyone isn't going to sound much better then any other, decently made table. I don't care what Mr. Fremer says. In the long run, I do agree that if you have the cash and money is no object, then go buy the VPI, but don't think for one second that it's going to sound "beyond this universe" in therms of presentation. Roy Orbison can make me knee jerk with almost any of my tables. Ain't that what it's all about?

[vortrex]

I'm sure you all saw this?

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/vpi-tonearm-comparison-file-identities-revealed

[jarcher]

Not sure what's so controversial about Wayner's original contention : i.e. that low volume can equal high cost, and that high cost may be out of proportion to the benefit gains.  We all sorta know & accept the "law of diminishing returns", particularly with high end audio, where it's more of a logarithmic scale than a linear one. 

i.e. if that $4K super motor on the Classic Direct were made at ten times the volume, you'd expect it would cost substantially less than $4k.  Same would likely be true of the VPI 3d printed arm if it were mass factory produced. Or the whole Direct Classic TT for that matter.  Yeah, maybe tolerances wouldn't be as perfect, but theres a lot of imperfection in making things more manually in lower production.  Witness the changes for the VPI Traveler over time (i.e. change in the gimbal construction with tonearm because it kept popping out).

[galyons]

... I asked you to defend your prior slam on me. So you either understand manufacturing or you don't.

Sorry. There was no "slam" on you. If you perceived one, I would opine that it was self inflicted.  I said nothing about you.  I said:
"I think that this pronouncement is a bit naive.  The thought process appears to be linear, when, IMO, it is not."

I then explained, my opinion, that mass production does not necessarily equal  better quality.  For the most part, manufacturing makes what and how it is told to produce by executive leadership, finance and marketing.  The cars after the first million VW's were produced  did not magically become Porsche's.  Dr. Porsche, an engineer and auto enthusiast, decided to take the basic car he designed for mass production and do a high end limited production for an entirely different target market than the "People's Car". It would have been more cost effective to produce the 356 on the bug line, but then it would not have met Dr. Porsche's vision.

Same with turntables.  The target market for mass consumer turntables and limited production high end turntables are different.  The specifications, production values and costs are aligned appropriately.  If you don't agree, than that is your prerogative.  My experience is just different from yours.

Also the cost/value relationship is not linear. We all know that.  The law of diminishing returns doesn't play favorites.

I own a VPI TNT IV w/ single motor flywheel & JMW10.5i arm. It is my everyday table. It has evloved from a TNT Jr. purchased around 1996. 

I also currently own and occasionally play:
Thorens TD124 w/Ortofon arm, TD150, TD160,
Empire 208
Sota Sapphire with Rega 300B
VPI HW19 Mk IV with SME 309 and VPI Gimballed arm
Pioneer PL41

To me, none of the sound the same. IMO, different materials, arms, cartridges, etc simply make the "one sound" concept unlikely.  I enjoy them all. But the TNT will be the last to go! That is what makes this hobby fun and so frustrates absolutist thinking.

Geary

 

[MaxCast]

Easy guys, discussion should be about the table and the arm.  No need for the back and forth. 

[neobop]

This isn't a product that could be mass produced.  It's not physically possible.  How do you stamp out a machined 18 lb platter?  The non-cogging direct drive system uses the platter as the rotor and a circuit board as the stator.  If it were possible, it wouldn't be feasible.  Lets say you could shave 30% off the retail price by some mass production (a wildly optimistic figure).  It would still sell for $21K.  How many $21K record players would you have to sell to recover mass production set-up costs?   It's not that kind of product.

http://vpiindustries.com/table-direct.htm

neo

[galyons]

This isn't a product that could be mass produced.  It's not physically possible. 

neo

Exactly.  There simply are not enough potential consumers to make mass production a good business decision for very high end turntables. 

Cheers,
Geary

[neobop]

I've read that VPI has a new TOTL table in the works.  It's said to be another direct drive that looks more like the HRX which can accommodate 2 arms.
http://vpiindustries.com/table-hrx.htm

I believe target price is in the $50K range. 
I hope this discussion about the price will cease, but it never seems to go away.  There are many more expensive record players.  Clearaudio has one for $150K.  What makes them worth it?  It's like asking what makes some cars worth $0.5M or some wristwatches worth over $1M ? 
http://www.watchtime.com/blog/million-dollar-watches/

This thread is not an endorsement.  It's more like industry news.  I happen to like great tables, especially direct drivers and I think this is cool even if I can't afford one.   The notion that a well tweaked "regular" table is almost as good, is both right and wrong IMO.  If you know what your doing you can get that regular table to sing beautifully, no doubt about it.  But it's not the same. 

My partner, Dan at AHT had a Goldmund Reference.  I had a Goldmund direct drive.  Believe me, my record player sounded great.  People would come over and be amazed.  I also had direct drive electrostatics (OTL tube amps).  Good as it was, Dan's Reference was better, but all it could do is play records.
neo

[roscoeiii]

Fremer just posted part 2 of his VPI review in Stereophile

[Minn Mark]

Fremer's part II seems a bit critical, in relation to his part I review for the VPI DD?  Maybe I don't have the ability to apply criticism to TTs in this price range, far above what I'll ever be able to afford, or have ever heard for that matter. 

Happy with my Classic I -  Sumiko Blackbird combo.   

Mark 

[roscoeiii]

Fremer's part II seems a bit critical, in relation to his part I review for the VPI DD?  Maybe I don't have the ability to apply criticism to TTs in this price range, far above what I'll ever be able to afford, or have ever heard for that matter. 

Happy with my Classic I -  Sumiko Blackbird combo.   

Mark

Really?  I didn't read it as too critical.

[Wayner]

First off, I have the same cartridge on all of my turntables. This reduces the differences down to the table itself. I also use the same phono preamps.

Now for the rest of the story. I am very concerned that people actually defend a 30K table. I'm sure that most of us ACers receive catalogs in the mail from various e-vendors. If you pay attention to the pricing of many products, even a millionaire could not afford to buy some of these systems. It would take a muti-millionaire. That causes a great concern on my part, for fear of my hobby, the industry itself and the current economic state. There are very few products like the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speaker that can produce challenging performances at affordable prices. And to those reviewers of the hifi magazines, a $1000 CD play is not an affordable CD player.

[neobop]

First off, I have the same cartridge on all of my turntables. This reduces the differences down to the table itself. I also use the same phono preamps.

Now for the rest of the story. I am very concerned that people actually defend a 30K table. I'm sure that most of us ACers receive catalogs in the mail from various e-vendors. If you pay attention to the pricing of many products, even a millionaire could not afford to buy some of these systems. It would take a muti-millionaire. That causes a great concern on my part, for fear of my hobby, the industry itself and the current economic state. There are very few products like the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speaker that can produce challenging performances at affordable prices. And to those reviewers of the hifi magazines, a $1000 CD play is not an affordable CD player.

Wayner,
Lay your fears to rest.  That's the way it's always been, at least as far back as I can remember.  There has always been top shelf stuff that only the richie rich can afford, and there has always been guys that bought things they couldn't afford.  There are also inexpensive products that almost anyone can afford, the Pioneer speakers happen to be exceptional.  Nothing's changed, only the numbers are bigger because of inflation.

Today you can buy a DVD player for $30 that plays CD.  Oh, you want something better?  Where do you draw the line? 

This table needs no defense.  It will sell or not, on its merits or desirability.  It's being compared to a $150K table and believe it or not, some people buy them.  Not everything is a high value product.  Some things are supposed to be ultimate performance type products, and a few really are, but that comes at a price.  Even Harry says it just a little better than his second best. 

You should be happy that you can get most of this performance for much less money.  Let the richie rich have their toys.  They will anyway.
neo

[neobop]

I should have said this yesterday.  Guess I got caught up in the thought.  Wayner, you cited a perfect example of the value of high end. 

Those Pioneer BS-22 speakers were designed by Andrew Jones who formerly worked for KEF.  After KEF Jones was chief designer for TAD which was a subsidiary of Pioneer.  In '03 TAD released the Model-1 consumer speakers (Jones designed) at $45K/pr.  After that, due to rising production costs - new parts and labor, a new model, the Reference 1 came out in '06 at $78K/pr.  These speakers are said to be spectacular. I haven't heard them.

Where did Jones get the expertise to design speakers selling for a little over $100/pr. which perform so well?   Maybe in economics the trickle down theory is mostly bullshit, but not in technology. 
neo
 

[BobM]

No doubt the following are true, at least in part...

- VPI has made turntables for many years now
- VPI has offered both reasonably priced and high end performance competative tables in the past
- VPI strives to update their tables and their designs over time
- VPI offers upgrades in the form of the sale of individual parts if an owner wants to take advantage of this
- VPI has a good name in the industry and has a very effective marketing strategy
- VPI tries to innovate, some time those changes are improvements and sometimes not

That being said, the new direct drive motor definitely falls into the innovative category, as does the 3D arm. And since there are relatively few competitors offering the same, VPI can offer these "parts" at whatever price they so choose. Their pricing, at least in part, has to be based on the manufacturing cost and the exclusivity of them, which is high on both counts. So I really can't understand why there is so much hatred for these products, especially since several other of VPI's competitors offer their products at prices vastly exceeding what VPI is asking.

I'm sure VPI is absolutely loving all the discuission this new table is generating. It's all additional free marketing for them.

The bottom line has always been ... if you can't afford it them go buy something else.  But if you are a true audiophile then you may very well enjoy reading about new innovations and products regardless of their price. Hell, I love seeing Masaratti's in Motor Trend, but it is still not a car I am going to buy, or even test drive. Same here.

[rcag_ils]

If VPI's reading this thread, I want them to know that it pisses me off that they have made all the HW-19 series turntable obsolete by not making any more parts for them.

[roscoeiii]

If VPI's reading this thread, I want them to know that it pisses me off that they have made all the HW-19 series turntable obsolete by not making any more parts for them.

How long ago did they stop making that table? 2006? They seem to have some parts on hand for it, but to expect them to continue making parts for a table that hasn't been sold new for so many years is asking a bit much IMO. And with so many of these sold, I imagine that most parts could be found on the secondary market with some patience and looking.

[neobop]

I don't know.  Send Sota a 25 yr old table and they'll gladly refurbish it for you.  They'll charge you out the kazoo, but they'll also sell parts.  So, is that too much to ask?  Sorry, VPI is a little busy making Travelers for Asia (can't keep up w/orders).  Go scrounge your parts on the used market and good luck.
Maybe you should open your own machine shop.  Lets see, how much does that CNC thingy cost?

Before we nominate Harry for sainthood, take a look at this thread on Agon:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1384841473&openfrom&101&4#101

"Tone Audio gave the VPI direct drive table product of 2013 after one afternoon listening to it at the VPI factory.

Biggest piece of advertorial I have read and an embarrassment for Tone audio and VPI for allowing it."

"They" say that Mikey is always favorable toward VPI, and the new reviewer on the block gets a free ad every time someone clicks on Classic Direct at VPI site.  Pretty slick.  Fremer talked about his reference, but he didn't say squat about Brinkmann Bardo ($8K w/o arm) which he also reviewed. 

The problem is, you can't really believe them even if you read between the lines.  This Thin Gap motor is expensive, but I also wonder if, or how much better it is than a regular coreless and slotless motor.  CD does have an 18 lb platter.....   
neo

[jarcher]

I really appreciated MW of VPIs comment on that audiogon thread that the sound quality improvement over a Classic 4 is in his opinion only about 5%. Takes a lot of honesty and guts to say that, and strengthens my opinion of VPI. If someone wants and has the money to pay more than three times as much for a Classic Direct, more power to them. But at least VPI is not trying to say it sounds three times (or even twice) as good.