AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: TheChairGuy on 11 Apr 2009, 02:19 pm
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I know the question is a loaded one in a Vinyl Circle, but it doesn't fit really anywhere else these days at AC.
I get that CD/redbook tends to be more reliable and undoubtedly simpler and doesn't have needle replacements to bother with, tonearm tinkering, significant cleaning rituals, etc...but, do folks out there actually prefer CD in all instances over vinyl gear?
I listen to vinyl, CD, DVD-A (a nice advance in digital technologies I have found)...but, without some measure of vinyl listening, my system lacks enjoyment :) I've tried to do without vinyl for a time, but found it was the worst 4 years of my musical listening life :(
If I had not rediscovered vinyl after 4 years I would've downsized my system to nothing and dropped out. Finding a format, despite it's flaws, that mimic'ed the real live event is the only thing that matters to me (and it seems a growing cadre of you here at the Vinyl Circle :wink:)
I know that the inherent $%^@^#@ hassle of vinyl turns off some/many...but, are there those out there that actually prefer, sonically, CD to vinyl for musical content?
John / 8)
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I love listening to music period.
But you are right - Vinyl is kind of special.
Mariusz
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Lately it depends on the recording. Until recently, vinyl had always beat a CD in sound quality. Digital had always sounded flat, it was great for background music but when I wanted to plop down in the sweet spot and enjoy a recording I always choose vinyl.
Then I ripped all my CD's to .wav files and put together a HagUSB (http://www.hagtech.com/hagusb.html) converter to try out streaming files to a DAC. That got rid of the first weak link, the CD transport.
The stand-alone DAC got rid of the second weak link, the inferior DAC's put into affordable CD players.
The first DAC I tried was a California Audio Labs System 1 (http://www.wghwoodworking.com/cal/cal.html). A great sounding DAC that will still compete with DAC's made today but it has a mechanical click between songs as the muting relay locks onto the next data set. I still use the CAL DAC in my shop.
The second DAC was a Scott Nixon Tube DAC with 3XAC power supply. It was pleasant, reserved, and ultimately boring.
The third DAC was the new Van Alstine Insight, it was slightly better than the CAL but tonally the mid-range seemed light to a (very) small degree.
The fourth DAC is a Van Alstine Insight+, actually the same DAC as the one above but with the op-amp upgrade chips. The mid-range thinness is gone, there is even more controlled bass and the final sound compares very favorably to vinyl. Digital now has the same three dimensional soundstage as vinyl.
I can happily listen to either format now because there is more difference in the quality of the recordings than which tool I use to play them.
Wayne
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Would you consider a Hard Drive based computer system as part of this discussion?
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Interesting Wayne...given your true dedication to vinyl, I find your post impressive and persuasive.
I find that CD playback is impressively honest now using the wacky Dakiom Feedback Stabilizers...but, it still lacks 3 dimensionality that screams real. I have for some time figured I'd one day buy something from Frank van Alstine, so maybe this will be the time to try :thumb:
Then again, I've read over time the inherent advantages of vinyl are lost as we age and hearing declines...so maybe the two are coinciding for all of us at some point :(
ZLS - everything counts...CD and hard drive sound much the same to me once you damp the CD/disc and have a relatively jitter free player at hand. That's what I've found, at least.
John
The fourth DAC is a Van Alstine Insight+, actually the same DAC as the one above but with the op-amp upgrade chips. The mid-range thinness is gone, there is even more controlled bass and the final sound compares very favorably to vinyl. Digital now has the same three dimensional soundstage as vinyl.
I can happily listen to either format now because there is more difference in the quality of the recordings than which tool I use to play them.
Wayne
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John,
Try this free high definition download.http://www.hdtracks.com/
Perhaps you should audition cutting edge digital audio such as the Modwright Transporter, the various offerings by Empirical Audio or a modded Squeezebox and power supply.
As you can see here lots of very experienced audiophiles with $$$$ are excited about the Modwright Transporter. I suspect that many of these 'phools have high end vinyl rigs.http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.0
CD players will soon be obsolete.
-Roy
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First, I admit that I am still relatively inexperienced with vinyl. My vinyl rig has been down as long as I've had it up since owning it. That said...
I have said some of this before. I don't think it is black and white to me. Most of my best sonic recordings are not on vinyl. Most of the best sound I've had in my rig has not been vinyl. I have a number of recordings that I have on both formats and more often the CD version rules. I don't find like many that vinyl is more 3D for those recordings, more the other way around. Could this mean my table is not properly set up. It could, but I doubt it is that, lots of care was taken.
I just think it really comes down to music style and even more importantly the era of most of your recordings. I find that with recordings I have in both formats there is a strong correlation with which format wins and when it produced. There are exceptions in my collection, but the correlation is still quite there. Sonically good modern recordings most often sound better on CD while any recording oringally recorded prior to 1980 quite often sound dramatically better on vinyl. Then there is the middle land of the 80's to early 90's, where it is a hit and miss and more often than not a lot of my recordings from this era are in CD and sound questionable.
That is my experience and I'm sticking to it.
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Depends on the type of music being played as well. I listen to mostly electronic music, and the intricate and detail oriented types of tracks sound better on CD. Whereas something like the Thievery Corporation and Zero 7, the more organic types of electronic music, are preferable on vinyl.
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I don't own a table or any records, I'm entirely PC based, with an "ultimate" Bolder modded Squeezebox. That said, the Teres turntables I've heard simply trounce all digital equipment I've ever heard, from a purely sonic standpoint.
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John,
Try this free high definition download.http://www.hdtracks.com/
Good call on HDTracks 24/96 24/88.2 KHz albums.
I also highly recommend Boston Symphony's 24/88.2 downloads.
http://www.bso.org/bso/shop/productCategories.jsp;jsessionid=OJ1JPIFZKWKKCCTFQMGCFEQ?id=bcat13360032
Played back in native 24/88.2-96 without upsampling nonsense, some of these have opened my eyes WIDE. I was listening to BSO's Mahler 6th and German Requiem, both in 24/88.2, and compared to my previous 44.1 references, and HOLY MOTHER OF DIGITAL, what was once good music is now Compelling Tsunami of Emotion :thumb:
High Res downloads is and will be the Future :green:
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Recently got back into vinyl so I can play fairly extensive collection since Rabco arm finally failed and did in Grado stylus. My system includes Technics SL 1200mk2 (with KAB damper trough), Grado Statement Sonata, AVA Insight and Ultra pre-amps, AVA Insight and Ultra DACs, ATI6012 amp and Orion+ speakers. I also have an ADC XLM, a Denon 103 (with Supex SUT), a Grado G3+ with Gold stylus. In every case that I own both CD and vinyl of the same recording, the CD sounds more real and correct by far. The vinyl is ok, but doesn't quite measure up. Yes, I've aligned the Sonata very carefully using Baerwald), but haven't messed with VTA much yet. My experience is about the same as with the Grado G3+ in the Rabco or my Linn. I nevertheless enjoy the Technics reliability and ease of operation.
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I do not miss the inconvenience of vinyl nor the "ssshhhrrrr" background sound.
Granted, for a few years when the record companies re-released their backlog using 24bit remastering, the metallic high end was very disconcerting and I am now very wary about buying 24bit RM CD's. CD's done right don't make me miss records at all.
-Another AVA afficionado.
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I wasn't going to chime it but Dan's comment prompted me. I am new to vinyl (2 years). I have many albums on CD and vinyl too, so I have made comparisons.
Sonically, the resolution I hear on my SL1210 TT is greater than my digital server + NOS DAC (details in sig). CDs ripped to AIFF/WAV. Basically I hear more detail and more body. But not always. When I do.... how much more?....about 20-50%, depending. And I am not wanting in the detail department with my digital music.
Sonically, there are times my digital server is preferred. It's often stated that you can block out the tick and pops from vinyl. I guess that is a developed skill, since I am still not used to it. it distracts me sometimes. So therefore I like the CD/digital playback's lack of these distractions. Then on vinyl, there is the noise during quiet passages, even short ones, CD minimizes or completely removes this. I am satisfied with the amount of soundstage with both mediums they are the same in my system.
When I can listen to uninteruppted music, not having to flip the record, run the brush. CD wins again.
But in the end I agree 200% with Marius...
I love listening to music period.
But you are right - Vinyl is kind of special.
Mariusz
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Yep, I think Mariusz summed it up nicely :thumb:
It's been ~5 years since I've heard a truly bad CD/DVD player...the whole format rose above what I thought it ever could at really low prices. But, there seems to be a ceiling for the format (so far, for me)...it only goes so far in providing musical satisfaction. 3D is missing and I've yet to hear a DAC that changes that (tho I'm still open to one that might)
Pound for pound and dollar for dollar I'm at odds with the vinylphool community (I prefer direct drive over belt at price points below a few $$, I have yet to find a moving coil that fully satisfies, I use a full featured preamp and preferable solid state, my fave cartridges tend to have ample output to run into MM sections directly, I find Grado's make most other cartridges sick, feeble and fake in comparison, the Technics SL-1200 is a fine US$500-1000 table but falls short of ideal after this $$ outlay, etc).
Nonetheless, vinyl is very special when you tap into it in a way that pleases your particular senses :inlove:
John
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Hi,I must say I agree with John in many regards.
1) Vinyl is special
2)The sl1200 is an ok player not fantastic
3)I too am a MM fan
4)I also use a full featured preamp that being an AVA pas4i
5)Grados were my favorite cartridge until I heard the ADC XLM 11 now my favorite
6)imo I've heard many well recorded Cds but the 3d is definitely missing
dreockster
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John,
Try this free high definition download.http://www.hdtracks.com/
Perhaps you should audition cutting edge digital audio such as the Modwright Transporter, the various offerings by Empirical Audio or a modded Squeezebox and power supply.
As you can see here lots of very experienced audiophiles with $$$$ are excited about the Modwright Transporter. I suspect that many of these 'phools have high end vinyl rigs.http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.0
CD players will soon be obsolete.
-Roy
I fully agree with you Roy, the only use for CD's at this point is to either rip them into my hard drive or burn them for my car. I am totally not into vinyl for any reason. What I now have for computer audio, there's no other medium that can match what I now am listening to,,, but that is considering my musical preferences which leans toward highly detailed and very highly dynamic sound stage. It's not everyone's cup of tea but there's nothing I'd love more than to have other ears hear my system so they could judge for themselves.
My CDP is my HTPC and I'm using an Emperical Off-Ramp 3 w/Superclock, Paul Haynes SR3-12 power supply, Bolder Summit DC cable and Crystal Cable Digit. It's an incredibly musical source IMHO. 8)
I'll apologise upfront to the moderator for posting this in a Vinyl Circle,,, seems like there's a lot of "Are there really folks that prefer" threads lately.
Cheers,
Robin
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John can you define your term 3D for me? Are you referring to the sound stage or three dimensional quality of an instrument or vocalist in the sound stage? Please elucidate.
I have vinyl I enjoy but not for any intrinsic quality that my CD replay does not possess it's more a problem with availability of the performance on CD.
Unfortunately I can also hear the loss of high frequency transient information due to groove wear on my older recordings.
Scotty
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I like the CD sound.
I used to own a Thorens TT which I liked, but never took the time to tweak the tonearm or cartridge to get the best sound out of it.
I was in Germany in the 1980's when the CD was first introduced. I had one of the first production Sony CD players and it sound shrill and very crude. As the decades unfolded, CD sound improved by long strides.
Now with seperate DACs, as noted before by other posters, the sound is very smooth, very nice indeed.
I will say the engineering and production quality varies by a very wide margin from CD to CD and that is what makes a bigger difference. A bad CD will sound very poor on a quality playback system and thus conversly, a good CD will sound fantastic on that same sound system.
I do not miss vinyl, but respect those who do.
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CD, no.
SACD/DVD Audio, yes.
I've several SACD and DVD audio that clearly outperform the vinyl version of the same recording from both a clarity and noise floor standpoint. Some of these recordings are near mirror copies of the original master tape they were created from, something no vinyl rig, no matter how much you spend on it, can quite achieve.
Understand, I'm not putting vinyl down, just stating that SACD/DVD Audio can outperform vinyl. There are sound formats coming that will outperform SACD/DVD Audio.
so, it can only get better.
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I only recently got into vinyl and there are some qualities I really enjoy. As it turns out, I have a MW Transporter as well, so CDs are on the road to nowhere as far as I am concerned. Aside from ripping it to HDD and maybe burning a copy for my car I doubt I will ever spin a CD again. I recently got a chance to A/B "OK Computer" on my MW and my dirt cheap TT. It was a remaster, so it wasn't an identical pair of recordings. That being said, I found the LP to uncover a lot of details that were more obscure on the MW, which could have easily been the remastering at play. As far as 3D soundstage and organic/natural tone quality you guys need to hear a MW Transporter. As much as I love playing my vinyl, somehow Dan Wright has an analog stage that comes incredibly close to making my FLAC files sound like a live performance.
To answer.... I love my digital served music and I love vinyl. It all sounds great and it makes my enjoyment of music (why I do this hobby) that much greater.
-Michael
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I do. :wave:
I'll explain why later...
George
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"ZLS - everything counts...CD and hard drive sound much the same to me once you damp the CD/disc and have a relatively jitter free player at hand. That's what I've found, at least"
The ability to create my own playlists on a Hard Drive system is something I am unwilling to give up. Besides the fun I derive by being my own Disc Jockey depending on my mood; I have on numerous occasions have had an understanding of how one artist was influenced by another artist. It is as if a picture has suddenly come into focus, and my appreciation and understanding of the music has deepened. I listen to a lot of Jazz, and to hear the same song performed by different artists is both fun and educational.
I realize as I write this that by taking the time to create a playlist I am taking a more active role in the playback of my music just as listen to vinyl forces you to do.
Just one persons opinion, YMMV
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I do. :wave:
I'll explain why later...
George
While I haven't actively listened to records for the last 4 years, my digital source has gotten better and better to the point where I feel that it is just about equal to vinyl on redbook and superior when playing hi-rez music.
The days of digital glare and grit are long gone and the players have taken giant leaps forward. I can connect to music through my digital front end in the same manner as a vinyl front end. My only gripe these days is not with my player, but with the mastering job done by the studios. If we could just get today's engineers to actual master music for a nice stereo instead of an iPod or computer, I would really be a happy puppy!
As was pointed out previously, hi-rez music is really the future that will clearly put digital ahead vinyl in terms of sonics. When I play my 24/88 or 24/96 music, it is leaps and bounds ahead of 16/44 redbook across the board. I have run tests with audiophile and non-audiophile friends and each and every time they can easily AND correctly pick which is hi-rez and which is redbook when I play one of each type using the same song.
Now that the sonics of my digital front end (Modwright Transporter) have caught up with vinyl, it really is an easy choice over spinning the black circle. The incredible advantage computer based digital has over vinyl in terms of ease of use, flexibility, etc...really makes it a no-brainer for ME.
If others want to stick with the vinyl ritual, I am cool with that and say "have a blast". I will almost certainly never go back.
George
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I'll apologise upfront to the moderator for posting this in a Vinyl Circle,,, seems like there's a lot of "Are there really folks that prefer" threads lately.
Cheers,
Robin
No apologies needed, Robin...I started it :o
One HUGE thing that should be noted is that Vinyl is an experience best enjoyed in smaller rooms. It doesn't have the dynamic range (no matter how we try to bend reality with new cartridge or table it cannot be changed) and doesn't 'charge' the room as digital technologies do. In the past 20+ years the average American home grew by 30% on average (and the family size inside fell by 30%).
I may have yet to hear a vinyl-based front end sounding superb in a large room. Very, very few, at least.
So, on average, it leaves larger rooms for fewer people...a perfect recipe for better enjoyment of digital technologies (CD, DVD, etc)
Vinyl in the UK (and probably Japan) survived the dark 80's and 90's better as the average home/room is smaller. Who wants to walk 20'+ to change an album side - it's much easier when the player is 8' away. Convenience and sonics based on room size is no trivial matter in a decision to scorn vinyl 8)
Scotty - 3D is 3D. There is width, depth, and height to the music/sound that is not replicated with digital technologies. There is a reality to the sound (not with all cartridges, the Grado and other MM's win there and that tends to be my deciding line, and it's much pricier to achieve it with belt drive decks) that is never approximated with digital for me.
Give me a modded/Longhorned Grado (preferably on a fluid damped arm) in many direct drive decks (filled with modeling clay) running into a capable full functioned preamp, with scrupulously cleaned albums in rooms less than 15' x 20' and you'll hear sonics that no digital technology I have ever heard can rival.
The real event can be in your room for a lot less than imagined :thumb: CD/DVD-A is merely a more convenient format that sound more engrossing than FM in my 12 x 16' room.
John
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John if I understand you correctly the CD replay you have heard had an image that was confined to the plane of the speakers,did not image any higher than the top of the loudspeakers and did not image beyond the sides of the speakers. It may have also seemed squashed dynamically as well as lacking a sense of the space that the recording took place in.
In other words,musical wallpaper. I would not enjoy this standard of replay either.
Scotty
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One HUGE thing that should be noted is that Vinyl is an experience best enjoyed in smaller rooms. It doesn't have the dynamic range (no matter how we try to bend reality with new cartridge or table it cannot be changed) and doesn't 'charge' the room as digital technologies do. In the past 20+ years the average American home grew by 30% on average (and the family size inside fell by 30%).
I may have yet to hear a vinyl-based front end sounding superb in a large room. Very, very few, at least.
John
John,
I have heard some killer vinyl setups at shows (such as RMAF) in very large rooms (some as large a ballroom). Granted, these vinyl setups (and their accompanying gear) cost a small fortune, but they did sound very, very good.
In my old house, my listening room was roughly 3000 cubic feet and my Linn TT setup was definitely better than various digital front ends.
George
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As my friends have taught me, part of the reason that you can copy a CD and get better sound, is because of the errors that were distributed on the original, and were corrected in the copying process. The software corrects these problems. The convenience of a computer based server is undeniable.
If you system is up to the task, the quality of the detail from the finest vinyl playback is also undeniable. When I listen to Wagner's Die Walkere (Sheffield Lab) I hear the Los Angeles Philharmonic in all it's glory, just like I was in an auditorium. I have yet to equal that on my CD's.
I like both mediums, and in certain cases I prefer CD's. But I love the detail that I get from my vinyl!!
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I used to listen to a good CD player but found the sound annoying after say about an hour and a half of listening. This I have found to be much more the case with compressed files.
Does anyone else have this problem? Have the more modern players made it possible to listen for longer without getting a headache?
Being mildly philosophical, digital is not High Fidelity as you do not have the complete sound wave to start with. How can it be honest and truthfull to the original performance when that performance in it's entirety never even enters your house?
At least with vinyl and reel to reel we are striving for perfection, digital is like giving up and admitting that we never can. :cry:
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I used to listen to a decent vinyl set up but was always annoyed by the pops, ticks and groove noise inherent in records. Early cd sound was also annoying with its painfully bright/harsh quality but four or five years ago I found a cdp that doesn't exhibit any of the nastiness associated with digital but lets the music through. Sold the vinyl collection of 30 years shortly after and haven't regretted it once.
Now I can listen to music for hours without annoyance from either format. I can actually listen to music instead of listening to my system. What a pleasure that is.
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I like CD's and do not have much experience with records. The idea of a electromechanical pickup is awesome! :D I played records before I had a CD player, but it was a cheap system and I was only around 10-12 years old.
To those who do not like CD's: Why? I have listened very closely for artifacts with a horn-based speaker system and various amplifiers, but could not find any aberrations worth mentioning. There is no quantization noise. My sampling rate is 44.1khz via a DVD player/recorder. In fact, I thought the sound on a good recording was extremely transparent.
I imagine vinyl to be 'organic' sounding in nature. Have any of you tried recording a record directly to a CD? Did you notice any differences?
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(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31WCqkGgu1L._SL500_AA250_.jpg)
ION LP 2 CD USB Turntable with direct-to-CD recording
http://www.amazon.com/ION-USB-Turntable-direct-recording/dp/B001B9SH4U/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&s=audio-video&qid=1239540015&sr=1-17 (http://www.amazon.com/ION-USB-Turntable-direct-recording/dp/B001B9SH4U/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&s=audio-video&qid=1239540015&sr=1-17)
Now everyone can be happy :lol:
As far as the question in the subject is whatever copy i have that sounds best to me. wither its a remastered CD or an original pressing LP to a new pressed 180gr LP i don't care. Its all about what i am In the mood to listen to, Not the medium used for playback that concerns me.
ED
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I used to listen to a good CD player but found the sound annoying after say about an hour and a half of listening. This I have found to be much more the case with compressed files.
Oh yeah...you were lucky to have stuck around for 90 minutes...I would bail after 30 :o
Does anyone else have this problem? Have the more modern players made it possible to listen for longer without getting a headache?
Yup, as noted above.....buy a new player. I've yet to hear one of 'em at any price point the past 4-5 years (as Timind indicated) that hasn't at least sounded decent. The format came far further and at lower prices than I thought it ever could pre-2004.
Being mildly philosophical, digital is not High Fidelity as you do not have the complete sound wave to start with. How can it be honest and truthfull to the original performance when that performance in it's entirety never even enters your house? At least with vinyl and reel to reel we are striving for perfection, digital is like giving up and admitting that we never can. :cry:
Good points - I'll defer on the technical aspects of it's shortcoming(s) to others better equipped, but despite great strides forward, CD remains a second class format for me.
It never quite gets to 'real' status no matter what's tried. But, so long as I understand what I'm listening to is not an 'event', I can now listen to CD for hours at a time and enjoy it as pleasant (mostly) background. A recent vintage CD/DVD (I own the Cambridge DVD99 for $299 and it's swell) and a pair of $218.00 Dakiom Feedback Stabilizer offers far better sound than I ever thought CD would. DVD-A is a smidge better, too (SACD is odd sounding to me). But, when scrupulously clean vinyl goes on my JVC direct drive and one of a few fave/great cartridges head it up, the music is heaven-sent :violin:
I've actually found myself lulled into thinking how good/enjoyable my CD playback is now (that never happened before so this is progress!).....but, when the vinyl goes on, in a minute I know what matters most :) Some of you that have a top-notch CD system and profess to it being great, should have a very good vinyl system and clean records nearby to compare.
My mouth is agape playing vinyl....my ears & brain are merely satisfied playing CD :wink:
John
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And really you can go back close to 8,9 yrs ago when Arcam came out with cd92,cd 23 players,sound was well ahead of its time,and these players are still classics and as good as any out there to this date.Bargains on Agon.Theres been really good cd sound for many many years,just like any component you just have to find the better ones.
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I can't understand why there is still discussion of CD players. :scratch: It's old technology that will soon disappear like cassette players did in the past. Computer based audio is the best playback currently available aside from very expensive vinyl systems. Soon most serious audiophiles will be downloading High Rez audio files for storage and playback. I like both vinyl and computer based audio and for the near term both will have a place in my system. I haven't used my CD player for three years. It is no longer in the audio rack. I keep it on hand just in case my modded Squeezebox turns belly up.
If you investigate this thread it's not difficult finding various posts describing the rapture they've experienced while listening to their Modwright Transporters. You'll find similar expressions of ecstasy in the Empirical Audio circle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg617985;topicseen#new
-Roy
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I can't understand why there is still discussion of CD players. :scratch: It's old technology that will soon disappear like cassette players have in the past. Computer based audio is the best playback currently available aside from very expensive vinyl systems. Soon most serious audiophiles will be downloading High Rez audio files for storage and playback. I like both vinyl and computer based audio and for the near term both will have a place in my system. I haven't used my CD player for three years. It is no longer in the audio rack. I keep it on hand just in case my modded Squeezebox turns belly up.
If you investigate this thread it's not difficult finding various posts describing the rapture they've experienced while listening to their Modwright Transporters. You'll find similar expressions of ecstasy in the Empirical Audio circle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg617985;topicseen#new
-Roy
+1 :thumb:
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I can't understand why there is still discussion of CD players. :scratch: It's old technology that will soon disappear like cassette players did in the past. Computer based audio is the best playback currently available aside from very expensive vinyl systems. Soon most serious audiophiles will be downloading High Rez audio files for storage and playback. I like both vinyl and computer based audio and for the near term both will have a place in my system. I haven't used my CD player for three years. It is no longer in the audio rack. I keep it on hand just in case my modded Squeezebox turns belly up.
If you investigate this thread it's not difficult finding various posts describing the rapture they've experienced while listening to their Modwright Transporters. You'll find similar expressions of ecstasy in the Empirical Audio circle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg617985;topicseen#new
-Roy
Totally disagree about computer playback which i find very soulless i would take a $50 dvd player over most computer system. the one's i heard that i liked were mostly highly modded unites that you could buy a very good TT or CDP and cut out all or most of the digital manipulation.
ED
As far as the future and hi speed downloads of High Rez audio files unless they do a major over haul of the web bandwidth constraints will kill that along with High Rez video/ movies
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After my long hiatus from vinyl, I returned to the fold about 6 or 8 weeks ago. The first LP spun left me with my mouth hanging open :oops:. It had me asking myself why I left this open, organic and three dimensional sound for the "convenience" of CD's.
Like other folks have mentioned, CD playback has improved, both due to recording techniques and better DAC's in the players out there. But it still doesn't do, for me, what a vinyl rig hooked to an all tube system does, which is envelope me in the music. SACD comes close with some recordings but vinyl rules :thumb:. YMMV
Walt
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I can't understand why there is still discussion of CD players. :scratch: It's old technology that will soon disappear like cassette players did in the past. Computer based audio is the best playback currently available aside from very expensive vinyl systems. Soon most serious audiophiles will be downloading High Rez audio files for storage and playback. I like both vinyl and computer based audio and for the near term both will have a place in my system. I haven't used my CD player for three years. It is no longer in the audio rack. I keep it on hand just in case my modded Squeezebox turns belly up.
If you investigate this thread it's not difficult finding various posts describing the rapture they've experienced while listening to their Modwright Transporters. You'll find similar expressions of ecstasy in the Empirical Audio circle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg617985;topicseen#new
-Roy
Totally disagree about computer playback which i find very soulless i would take a $50 dvd player over most computer system. the one's i heard that i liked were mostly highly modded unites that you could buy a very good TT or CDP and cut out all or most of the digital manipulation.
ED
As far as the future and hi speed downloads of High Rez audio files unless they do a major over haul of the web bandwidth constraints will kill that along with High Rez video/ movies
Ed,
I think you are a little off on this one.
While I won't make the sweeping statement that all computer based audio is great sounding, I can assure you that my computer based digital front end is not soulless and sounds killer. I use a Modwright Transporter in my computer setup. While it isn't cheap, I think it will be challenging to find an analog setup that equals or surpasses it for the same amount of money.
As for downloading hi-rez music...it is fast and easy. Don't confuse downloading/streaming 30-50GB Blu-ray hi-rez movies with downloading 500MB-1GB hi-rez music albums. With my Verizon FIOS account, I am able to hit download speeds of 20 Mbps. Speeds will continue to go up and prices come down as more and more time goes by.
George
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I love my Bryston Bda-1, adjustable 16 or 24 bit res. Its funny i used to immediately assume 24 bit was the way to go. Trying to bandaid the many misforgivings of optical playback kept us focused on this high res. I have done alot of listening with laptop via usb into this dac and found the 16 bit to be more in the way of analogue sounding on a great many recordings. Some recordings sound better in 24 bit and some recording i find sound better through modded sony transport. However the 16 bit has some great merit. The transients on 16 bit are closer to how i equate analogue sounding, along with the leading edges(from what i remember... :). Its been awhile since i've owned a vinyl deck.
I am just thinking (in the grand scheme of things) that we are the very start of something special with harddrives and playback. Its only going to get way better. i am not sure how much better vinyl can get but i suppose there is alway room for improvement.
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While I certainly enjoy all of the formentioned formats and in my case, I'm on a long vinyl trip, the ratio of vinyl to CD playback is about 100 to 1.
Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I would have a great fear of having all of my music as a "download". Working in the hard-drive industry, I know that drives crash. All of them (eventually). And while solid state drives have a small footstep in the doorway, they are still relatively new and unproven.
What will you do when you crash? Or will you have several drives as back up?
My backup sits on the shelf, waiting for it's turn to spin in something.
Wayner
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While I certainly enjoy all of the formentioned formats and in my case, I'm on a long vinyl trip, the ratio of vinyl to CD playback is about 100 to 1.
Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I would have a great fear of having all of my music as a "download". Working in the hard-drive industry, I know that drives crash. All of them (eventually). And while solid state drives have a small footstep in the doorway, they are still relatively new and unproven.
What will you do when you crash? Or will you have several drives as back up?
My backup sits on the shelf, waiting for it's turn to spin in something.
Wayner
Hey Wayner
The format is really new, all those issues are being addressed even now. In the not so distant future that post will look ancient. You will look back go :duh:
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While I certainly enjoy all of the formentioned formats and in my case, I'm on a long vinyl trip, the ratio of vinyl to CD playback is about 100 to 1.
Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I would have a great fear of having all of my music as a "download". Working in the hard-drive industry, I know that drives crash. All of them (eventually). And while solid state drives have a small footstep in the doorway, they are still relatively new and unproven.
What will you do when you crash? Or will you have several drives as back up?
My backup sits on the shelf, waiting for it's turn to spin in something.
Wayner
Wayner,
I simply backup all my music (2GB and growing). Not exactly hard, challenging, or expensive to do.
Also, I can move the backups off-site for increased protection and safety.
BTW, let's not forget that records can be scratched, can get warped, etc... Once I rip my cd, my physical media is protected and stays pristine.
George
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I can't understand why there is still discussion of CD players. :scratch: It's old technology that will soon disappear like cassette players did in the past. Computer based audio is the best playback currently available aside from very expensive vinyl systems. Soon most serious audiophiles will be downloading High Rez audio files for storage and playback. I like both vinyl and computer based audio and for the near term both will have a place in my system. I haven't used my CD player for three years. It is no longer in the audio rack. I keep it on hand just in case my modded Squeezebox turns belly up.
If you investigate this thread it's not difficult finding various posts describing the rapture they've experienced while listening to their Modwright Transporters. You'll find similar expressions of ecstasy in the Empirical Audio circle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg617985;topicseen#new
-Roy
Totally disagree about computer playback which i find very soulless i would take a $50 dvd player over most computer system. the one's i heard that i liked were mostly highly modded unites that you could buy a very good TT or CDP and cut out all or most of the digital manipulation.
ED
As far as the future and hi speed downloads of High Rez audio files unless they do a major over haul of the web bandwidth constraints will kill that along with High Rez video/ movies
Ed,
I think you are a little off on this one.
While I won't make the sweeping statement that all computer based audio is great sounding, I can assure you that my computer based digital front end is not soulless and sounds killer. I use a Modwright Transporter in my computer setup. While it isn't cheap, I think it will be challenging to find an analog setup that equals or surpasses it for the same amount of money.
As for downloading hi-rez music...it is fast and easy. Don't confuse downloading/streaming 30-50GB Blu-ray hi-rez movies with downloading 500MB-1GB hi-rez music albums. With my Verizon FIOS account, I am able to hit download speeds of 20 Mbps. Speeds will continue to go up and prices come down as more and more time goes by.
George
I'm sure your system is killer and if you ever get that get rave going you were talking about i plan to find out for myself I love the sound of the Vandersteen 5A's. $3800 Modwright transport and say $1500 to $2000 for a computer with a 4 tetra bit raid setup would be getting me a pretty good TT setup I will give you the ease of use as vinyl is a pain in the backside to do right but i am willing to spend the time to do it. As far as bandwidth goes i see more and more providers limiting band width YMMV
ED
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Some of you that have a top-notch CD system and profess to it being great, should have a very good vinyl system and clean records nearby to compare.
I wrote this a couple pages ago and now want to rescind it.
If what you have in your place sounds great to you - than you need nothing more nor any need to please anyone but yourself.
Seriously, that's ALL that matters. Sorry about that line above...I left it in for posterity, but it really is errant blather of an excited vinylphool :)
John
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George,
I know you are of sound mind and certainly would back up all that music, especially if you didn't own the hard copy. I do the same, believe it or not I have some stuff on hard drive.
However, I'm certain there are a few folks that have had the crash and are totally screwed. Yes, I know records can get worn, or damaged. That is one reason I take painful steps aligning my cart and setting the table correctly. A poorly installed cartridge will do great harm to any valuable collection.
I'm certainly not going to record and load 2,000+ lps and put them on a hard drive.
Have a good one
Wayner :D
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I'm sure your system is killer and if you ever get that get rave going you were talking about i plan to find out for myself I love the sound of the Vandersteen 5A's. $3800 Modwright transport and say $1500 to $2000 for a computer with a 4 tetra bit raid setup would be getting me a pretty good TT setup I will give you the ease of use as vinyl is a pain in the backside to do right but i am willing to spend the time to do it. As far as bandwidth goes i see more and more providers limiting band width YMMV
ED
Ed,
Met with Michael yesterday and we are looking at June, not May. BUT, there could be an even bigger surprise for everybody. Once Michael and I work some things out, we will get a firm date published and everybody will have plenty of time to make plans.
I put together a new computer system for under $1k in Nov/Dec that has 3.5 TB of storage, two optical drives, tons of memory, etc... I think raid is overkill for this application and adds a lot of unnecessary cost, but YMMV.
If you want to count the cost of the computer into the equation, you also need to count the cost of a nice phono stage and all the accompanying equipment for the vinyl setup.
Since this is the vinyl circle, what does $5k get you in terms of table, arm, cartridge, and phono stage these days?
George
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Some of you that have a top-notch CD system and profess to it being great, should have a very good vinyl system and clean records nearby to compare.
I wrote this a couple pages ago and now want to rescind it.
If what you have in your place sounds great to you - than you need nothing more nor any need to please anyone but yourself.
Seriously, that's ALL that matters. Sorry about that line above...I left it in for posterity, but it really is errant blather of an excited vinylphool :)
John
No worries John...it is the VINYL CIRCLE after all.
George
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I'm certainly not going to record and load 2,000+ lps and put them on a hard drive.
Wayner :D
I am in full agreement on that! My lp's are sitting in boxes and I have had no thoughts of ripping them.
I plan on keeping my meager collection (2-300lp's) just in case. aa
George
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I listen to whatever format the music I like is on. I prefer vinyl for the music that were mastered before CDs came out. Some remastered to CDs are good but I listened to a lot of music that never made to CD. So I run both. Newer ones don't exist on vinyl either although it's changing somewhat.
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If what you have in your place sounds great to you - than you need nothing more nor any need to please anyone but yourself.
That's it right there Brother. Amen.
My collection is 25,615 tunes stored in FLAC taking up 697GB on an external USB RAID drive that totals 1.5TB. So I've got room left (when the money starts coming back again).
Screw CDs, those are a PITA. Wouldn't mind having some vinyl in the house just for that 'ultimate sound' occasionally, but that's a long way off. But as you said, it all boils down to what our individual "flavor" and tolerance level happens to be.
At the end of the day, what makes us close our eyes and float off to that "other place" is what counts.
Bob
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I think a computer is the worst sounding source available today. Masses of noise, limited bandwidth, tonally devoid, emotionally sterile, dynamically flat, compressed to hell, usually overloaded and the material is designed to be played through 5.1 computer speakers.
How can you expect a good sound from something with a CPU in it? Or three fans spinning, or several whirring hard drives? Or a computers power supply? It does not compute.
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They said vinyl was going to disappear to.
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I think a computer is the worst sounding source available today. Masses of noise, limited bandwidth, tonally devoid, emotionally sterile, dynamically flat, compressed to hell, usually overloaded and the material is designed to be played through 5.1 computer speakers.
How can you expect a good sound from something with a CPU in it? Or three fans spinning, or several whirring hard drives? Or a computers power supply? It does not compute.
A post like this just shows you don't understand what computer based audio is.
I personally don't care if you like it or not, but I really wish people who say they don't like something, at least understand what they don't like.
George
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Mr. Trout,
The tunes don't go through the PC, kmixer, and all the EMI/noise created by the fans, power supply, PCI cards etc...
The files are transmitted (wired or wireless) in digital form to a SqueezeBox (or similar devise).
Any "screwing up of the music" will be done with the typical two channel components. ie; DAC, Pre, amp, speakers. etc....
There's quite a few highly respect individuals here that love their PC based sources. Not just little 'ol me.
Bob
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Hi,
I have sunk a lot of money into my vinyl system of the years. Its painful so many things have gone wrong with the turntable it isn't funny. A major problem I had was working out how to stop a 'ground loop' from making a really unpleasant hum when playing vinyl.
Cd is much easier to use and sounds great these days. Btw I currently use a second hand bel canto dac 2 and modified pioneer cdp.
I haven't totally given up on vinyl but for now its just sitting in my system unused. Perhaps, if I hadn't had so many issues with the bluenote turntable I wouldn't feel this way.
Regards
Rod
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A post like this just shows you don't understand what computer based audio is.
I personally don't care if you like it or not, but I really wish people who say they don't like something, at least understand what they don't like.
George
Well, I am no dummy at the 'puter (I am on them for hours each day, normally 7 days a week), but I admit to not knowing, or keeping up with, computer audio.
Those that I have heard sound the same as good CD playback decks with damped discs (Herbies mat or other damping mats). Which is not to say bad at all...just not as wholesome and fulsome as the vinyl I hear 8)
Tho I may at times sound close-minded, I am not really and look forward to being wrong (almost) as much as I delight in being right :icon_lol:
George/zybar...dunno' :scratch: if you're earlier request for a US$5k vinyl system was rhetorical or not, but $5k in deck, cartridge, and record cleaner (and cleaning chemicals) are out there that would blow most digi-philes minds. But, I've found that until you get to the high bucks phono stages, it doesn't overcome the drag of the extra IC length, solder and rca joints it adds to the analog chain. All these extra joints drain the sonic energy away...it's only until you get to the (typically) really high-priced phono stages do these parasitic losses get made up by other sonic purities.
So, when you add a high-buck phono stage to the mix, you may not reach the $5K point any better than a well-configured digital playback. I'm talking new components...used would put you well in the hunt :thumb:
John
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A post like this just shows you don't understand what computer based audio is.
I personally don't care if you like it or not, but I really wish people who say they don't like something, at least understand what they don't like.
George
Well, I am no dummy at the 'puter (I am on them for hours each day, normally 7 days a week), but I admit to not knowing, or keeping up with, computer audio.
Those that I have heard sound the same as good CD playback decks with damped discs (Herbies mat or other damping mats). Which is not to say bad at all...just not as wholesome and fulsome as the vinyl I hear 8)
Tho I may at times sound close-minded, I am not really and look forward to being wrong (almost) as much as I delight in being right :icon_lol:
John
And I didn't see you make silly statements John on something you don't know much about. :thumb:
George
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LOL. You tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and that the tunes don't 'go through' the computer. I spent the last five years fixing computers and all the component parts that make up a PC as that was my job as an electronics technician. I built the PC I write this on which uses a compresor and refrigerant to cool the CPU to minus 56 degrees centigrade to enable an overclock to just below 4ghz from my Pentium D dual core.
The tunes do go through the computer, from the hard drive to northbridge to ram to northbridge to CPU to northbridge to ram to soundcard and through southbridge to USB/firewire/wireless card to the air to the 'squeezebox' and through the same junk then to your speakers then the air then your poor ears. Thats why it sounds so good.......not.
Silly statement finished. :lol:
It is you that knows very little you pompous ass. :P
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For me a lot of the fun with cd's or lps is gong to rack and finding something that i haven't heard for a while the covers see who played on ect. That's why you will see me post a couple of PJ harvey cd on the what are you listening to thread as i got the urge from an other thread. I never do a play list its always the whole cd or at worst one side of an lp I have my entire cd collection 31953 tracks burned to mp3 to use for on my portable player that i use for work but i still copy whole albums over never just a bunch of tracks. For me i take each album as it comes, because that's what and in that order the artiest presented the material We were basically talking about the difference between sirloin and porterhouses with computer based systems and cdp and analog THey all work its just what sounds good to you
ED
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For me a lot of the fun with cd's or lps is gong to rack and finding something that i haven't heard for a while the covers see who played on ect. That's why you will see me post a couple of PJ harvey cd on the what are you listening to thread as i got the urge from an other thread. I never do a play list its always the whole cd or at worst one side of an lp I have my entire cd collection 31953 tracks burned to mp3 to use for on my portable player that i use for work but i still copy whole albums over never just a bunch of tracks. For me i take each album as it comes, because that's what and in that order the artiest presented the material We were basically talking about the difference between sirloin and porterhouses with computer based systems and cdp and analog THey all work its just what sounds good to you
ED
Ed,
I thought I would miss the ritual of grabbing the lp or cd, but I honestly don't. It has been replaced by the simplicity of having access to my entire collection with a few clicks of a remote or mouse.
While at times I might cruise from album to album a little quickly, the reality is that I listen to a SUBSTANTIALLY larger portion of my collection now, which is a very good thing.
George
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For me a lot of the fun with Cd's or lps is gong to rack and finding something that i haven't heard for a while the covers see who played on ect. That's why you will see me post a couple of PJ harvey cd on the what are you listening to thread as i got the urge from an other thread. I never do a play list its always the whole cd or at worst one side of an lp I have my entire cd collection 31953 tracks burned to mp3 to use for on my portable player that i use for work but i still copy whole albums over never just a bunch of tracks. For me i take each album as it comes, because that's what and in that order the artiest presented the material We were basically talking about the difference between sirloin and porterhouses with computer based systems and cdp and analog THey all work its just what sounds good to you
ED
I thought I would miss the ritual of grabbing the LP or CD, but I honestly don't. It has been replaced by the simplicity of having access to my entire collection with a few clicks of a remote or mouse.
While at times I might cruise from album to album a little quickly, the reality is that I listen to a SUBSTANTIALLY larger portion of my collection now, which is a very good thing.
George
Whats really funny is that a lot of times i will fill my mp3 player from the computer take it to work and listen then hear a album thinking to my self dang this is good haven't heard that for a while and end up digging it out and putting it on the player latter on that night so the easy access to all my music does the same for me i just have an extra step or two in the process
Ed,
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I have owned several high end turntables, phono preamps, cartridges, and the required record cleaning machines, fluids, & brushes.
Vinyl can sound utterly amazing when the system is dialed in and when using great quality vinyl. I have had vinyl that sounds better than most or possibly even all cds. I have to say that only applies to a small percentage of albums/records I have own. I have some DCC pressings that seem pretty magical.
I also have gone through a ton of digital gear for cd playback and have reached some conclusions. While I love vinyl, digital rules in my system.
I have been using my computer based playback system and now have the best sounding digital source I have experienced. It is a custom built USB dac made by ASi Teknologies called BUSB. It is battery powered and provides the best digital playback I have enjoyed in my system as well as dealer systems, other audiophiles I know, and audio shows that I have been to (AK Fest 05, 06, 07, 08).
I am not selling my vinyl collection as I do love records. I just realize I finally have a digital playback system in my home that for the very first time does not leave me wondering about upgrading my digital source or getting a new turntable/cartridge/phono preamp.
I honestly feel that using a computer/hard drive/right dac properly optimized will surpass any cd player on the market. I think we have just now reached this point in two channel audio.
This is not to say I don't appreciate vinyl and the people who swear by the format. I need both formats to get music from all the artists I am interested in.
I own more cds than vinyl and I believe that will continue until they stop selling cds. Then it will probably be downloads that surpass the physical copies of music I own. I hope this doesn't happen for a long time as I really enjoy shopping at music stores for new/used cds & vinyl.
-Nick
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All of this is very subjective. The majority of my most memorable "audiophile" experiences have come while listening to vinyl. Vinyl is what can make my jaw drop with an excellent recording. Vinyl more easily "transports" me than digital. Certain music such as Jazz I can only really enjoy with vinyl. Jazz just sounds more real, organic and most of all "musical". I've heard digital sound sonically as good or better than vinyl (detail and dynamics) but it still lacks the organic texturing. With that said, my vinyl rig is pretty average right now. I need a better phono amp. Finding good condition vinyl is difficult as hell when even brand new pressings have the potential to sound like crap. And when I do find a good pressing eventually a few annoying pops and ticks will surface :duh:
Getting rid of the transport helps digital a lot and with the combination of tubes I can listen to my Squeezebox for hours...but I still wind up returning to vinyl.
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John,
Try this free high definition download.http://www.hdtracks.com/
Perhaps you should audition cutting edge digital audio such as the Modwright Transporter, the various offerings by Empirical Audio or a modded Squeezebox and power supply.
As you can see here lots of very experienced audiophiles with $$$$ are excited about the Modwright Transporter. I suspect that many of these 'phools have high end vinyl rigs.http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.0
CD players will soon be obsolete.
-Roy
Thx for the link. I'm not the original poster, but I though I'd try it as well...
I tried the download. I laso downloaded MediaMonkey to play FLAC files... I don't know whether my computer's sound card is not up to par, or there is something else, but quality is not what I expected. It is better than MP3 for sure, but it has a weird "plasticky" feel to it. And on "Big Bad Girl" there is a distinctive raspy distortion whenever voice gets loud, akin to MP3 artifacts. So far, both my lowly regular CD player and LPs sound better... I will try to burn these HDs on a CD and play them thru my main system, but so far I'm not convinced.
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Browntrout,
I think your personality may be on the carefree and easy side - but, if you could dispense with some of the harsher verbiage such as 'It is you that knows very little you pompous ass. :P' many of us would appreciate it.
I thought the post was informative...but, a lot of folks won't get past that last line and take it all in as you wish them to.
Thanks, John / co-Facilitator
LOL. You tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and that the tunes don't 'go through' the computer. I spent the last five years fixing computers and all the component parts that make up a PC as that was my job as an electronics technician. I built the PC I write this on which uses a compresor and refrigerant to cool the CPU to minus 56 degrees centigrade to enable an overclock to just below 4ghz from my Pentium D dual core.
The tunes do go through the computer, from the hard drive to northbridge to ram to northbridge to CPU to northbridge to ram to soundcard and through southbridge to USB/firewire/wireless card to the air to the 'squeezebox' and through the same junk then to your speakers then the air then your poor ears. Thats why it sounds so good.......not.
Silly statement finished. :lol:
It is you that knows very little you pompous ass. :P
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I wont have someone tell me I know nothing about computers, infer I'm an idiot, or insult me in any other way whether on the net, face to face or on the phone. Too many people think they can put thinly veiled derogatory comments on places like this and just because they don't insult someone directly they get away with it.
At least I have the decency to insult the man plainly and clearly so he understands were he stands with me. If ZYBAR thinks he can just write something insulting my intelligence and I'm supposed to let it ride then he has another thing coming.
I spend my working days as a prison officer dealing with the worst kind of people and I don't tolerate being insulted by them so why the hell should I let some coward on the internet insult me and not be addressed for it?
However I do understand your concern for what I write and thankyou for being a good admin. :D I shall write no more.
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However I do understand your concern for what I write and thankyou for being a good admin. :D I shall write no more.
Thanks - if Zybar/George had actually called you an idiot, I'd understand the escalation in anger up to 'pompous ass' :wink:
But, he didn't - what you inferred from his comment(s) may be right on the money or off base - so your response needn't be quite as stinging.
Anyhow, I think you understand the whole shebang just fine - feel free to post here in Vinyl Circle as you want/need to - juuuuuuust remember most of us aren't prison inmates and cussing ain't the norm in talking with one another (and can be wildly misunderstood if you do)
Peace :rock:, John
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...if Zybar/George had actually called you an idiot, I'd understand the escalation in anger up to 'pompous ass' :wink:
But, he didn't - what you inferred from his comment(s) may be right on the money or off base - so your response needn't be quite as stinging...
hey tcg, i understand your reaction to browntrout's response to george's comments. but... re-read george's comments again:
A post like this just shows you don't understand what computer based audio is.
I personally don't care if you like it or not, but I really wish people who say they don't like something, at least understand what they don't like.
would you care to wager whether what browntrout inferred is off base or not? name your amount. :lol:
now, i don't have any dogs in this fight; what i have heard from well-done computer-based digital is yust as good as well-done cdp-based digital. and, i have heard it done damn well. while i believe, as others have mentioned, that recording quality is now pretty-much determinant of whether digital is or is not better than winyl, to my ears, if recording quality is equal, winyl will sound better. but i don't really sweat it; like rim said, if it's music i like, (and the recording isn't completely butchered), i can get immersed in cd playback easily enough. there was a time, as late as the mid 1990's, when i could not say that, and i wondered if it ever would be able to say it. i am glad i can say it, as there is a lot of music i like that ain't on winyl.
another thing that has been mentioned here - listening in a big room, well i have to totally disagree that winyl won't shine in a big room. the one thing i miss in my system, more than any other component, is the 28x36 room, which opened to other spaces w/total area about twice that size. in that room, my rig had dynamics in spades, and my main speakers were conwentional stand-mount 2-way monitors w/focal tweet and 7" eton midwoofer, back then. about 90db-efficient, nothing to indicate fantastic dynamics, unlike some coincident victory's i owne since, or my present horns...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=541)
doug s.
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I wont have someone tell me I know nothing about computers, infer I'm an idiot, or insult me in any other way whether on the net, face to face or on the phone. Too many people think they can put thinly veiled derogatory comments on places like this and just because they don't insult someone directly they get away with it.
At least I have the decency to insult the man plainly and clearly so he understands were he stands with me. If ZYBAR thinks he can just write something insulting my intelligence and I'm supposed to let it ride then he has another thing coming.
I spend my working days as a prison officer dealing with the worst kind of people and I don't tolerate being insulted by them so why the hell should I let some coward on the internet insult me and not be addressed for it?
However I do understand your concern for what I write and thankyou for being a good admin. :D I shall write no more.
Please come off your high horse. What I wrote in my post to you is no different than what I would say to you face to face. I don't appreciate being called a coward simply because I wrote something on the internet vs. having the opportunity to say it to your face.
Based on your comments, I still stand by mine.
I have too have been building computers for the last 20 years, that doesn't make me knowledgeable about computer based audio. What makes me knowledgeable, is the last 5+ years I have been heavily involved in the area. I have learned from practice and by interacting with people who share their experiences and knowledge.
BTW, if you want to know how good the Transporter measures from technical standpoint, just look at the review on Stereophile. The person who measured it called it state of the art and as good as it gets. That is with it receiving its files/music from the computer, not some standalone bench test.
George
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Wow. This is a rough joint. Is it worth explaining or does it matter at this point?
Bob
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Okay gents - let's just call computer audio a much misunderstood sub-section of high fidelity - due to whatever reason.
Bob, please don't explain it further :( :wink: I got me a handful with the current explanation(s) at hand.
John
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:lol:
The Vinyl Circle...... The NEW Roughest Place in Town.
Bob
Edit; It's a size thing isn't it? Your disks are bigger. It all boils down to the size.
I just got that. aa
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Okay gents - let's just call computer audio a much misunderstood sub-section of high fidelity - due to whatever reason.
Bob, please don't explain it further :( :wink: I got me a handful with the current explanation(s) at hand.
John
Sorry John.
I will not engage with BrownTrout any further.
George
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Well done John. :thumb:
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If I may weigh in here...I've been a die-hard vinyl addict for years, and did a lot of collecting in the 80's and '90s so now have ~3000 lps (nowhere near as many here, but still...)
Also have about 10 turntables, have done the RB300 rewire thing and the AR mod thing and acrylic platters and Lenco plinth, etc, etc....
I never really liked CDs; seemed like something was just not quite right.
But recently got a Squeezebox duet and a Valab DAC. Using I-tunes and Apple lossless files, the sound is very good and this is not high end by any means, $550 total. I've A/B'ed the music streaming from the SB with the LP (cartridge is AT150mlx, Sumiko BPS EVOIII) and there are plusses and minuses for each, LP has the slightest edge on a good recording. The lossless files are ripped from redbook CD, steaming at 48k (the limit for the Squeezebox) or converted from my turntable.
The thing that is going to cinch it is the ability to play randomly your entire collection via a remote control....I don't know how many times something is playing and I'll say "cool, what is that?" and it's a song that I've had for years and never listened to because it was the 3rd on the B side of some album.
This random function gives equal time to ALL my music, allowing me to explore and connect with my
collection in a totally new way.
Also consider that a small percentage of new music, even going back to the 1990's, ever came out out vinyl at all. My vinyl collection pretty much stops at aroung 1988 or so with few exceptions.
Playing vinyl pretty much means playing old music (yes I know *some* new stuff is being released on vinyl).
I'm really enjoying my newly replinthed Lenco, but for me, the Hard Drive based system looks like the future and it sounds really good.
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Excellent post Kirk! Very well said Sir. :thumb:
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Bob
p.s. I LOVE your signature line. That's classic. :lol:
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But don't the clicks and pops ruin the mood?
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But don't the clicks and pops ruin the mood?
Unless they are outright skips, or really persistant and loud clicks and or pops.....they don't spoil my mood.
Zealously cleaning the discs you listen to really does a lot to scrub away the potential mood-ruining issue of clicks and pops.
John
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I have transferred various sources over to CD (including records) and could not find any recording errors.
Something else tried: Before I had a CD recorder, my HiFi VCR was used for archiving. The HiFi track is recorded in FM, is extremely quiet (FAR better than a REEL to REEL) and has a response of 20-20K. Some of my VHS tapes are 10+ years old and they still play like new! :D :D These audio VHS tapes do not have video on them.
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My take. Good music is good music. Any format capable of giving me goosebumps is fine. Wether its Cd, LP or usb DAC delivering the music.
Lately have been intrigued by a HRC Musicstreamer + USB DAC. Running J. River Media center for playback with ASIO#4 as drive. Rip with EAC using FLAC. Man this little baby is suprising me every day. If I listen to the same music on each format its getting harder to determine which is best. They all have their differences small but noticeable. The USB DACs bass and sheer ultra quiet background allows more music to emerge from the source. The LP has more weight to the sound and a bit better decay of notes. The CD falls somewhere in between. In the end with a good recording the LP still is my favorite by a nose. Finishing second is NOW [ using a one meter silver USB instead of generic 4 meters, huge difference ] the USB DAC and computer.
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Having a great CD player and a great turntable, it depends on the mastering...
I've heard better presentation on both, just depends on the recording.
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I agree with Jeff... it completely depends on the recording and mastering. However, in my experience, if the recording is superb and your system is revealing, it always sounds far better and more musical on vinyl.
Due to a tremor in my hands, I have more reason than most to gripe about the "inconvenience" of analog. The tools of our obsession -- record cleaning machines, splshing fluids, brushes, heavy disk stabilizers, anti-static guns, even the manual tonearm lifter can be challenging... but to my ears, so very worth it. Nothing makes me smile like putting stylus to groove and having Miles Davis show up in my living room.
Alón
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Okay gents - let's just call computer audio a much misunderstood sub-section of high fidelity - due to whatever reason.
Bob, please don't explain it further :( :wink: I got me a handful with the current explanation(s) at hand.
John
Well John, now you know why I apologised early on for talking about computer audio in the Vinyl Circle. aa
Browntrout, if you're ever around Vermont you're more than welcome to stop in and listen to my " somewhat" silent HTPC computer audio source that sits on top of my 6' rack and judge for yourself as to the quality. I'd cherish the opportunity personally. :beer:
Cheers,
Robin
Cheers,
Robin
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If you investigate this thread it's not difficult finding various posts describing the rapture they've experienced while listening to their Modwright Transporters. You'll find similar expressions of ecstasy in the Empirical Audio circle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg617985;topicseen#new
-Roy
Over the years there have been many pieces of gear that have been described this way by either pro reviewers and / or actual owners.
I have owned some of this gear and never experienced either the ecstacy nor the rapture referred to above. Oftentimes it is simply "flavor the the month" stuff being hyped by the "fan boys". The fervor dies down and the gear fades into obscurity.
Not saying this particular piece of gear falls into that category, or that it is not very good. Just saying that descriptions of orgasmic delight are kindof strong, and sometimes found to be more hyperbole than accurate, so they don't hold much sway with me.
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toobluvr-
Completely OT, but noticed your avatar...is that a real photo?
Man, that is a big shark!
Kirk
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I guess I prefer CD's sonically - I don't own anything else (assuming you consider PC front end to be CD).
I used to spin vinyl as a DJ, but at present have a 1 source system, and that is all FLAC via Bolder SB3.
Sounds good to me!
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If you investigate this thread it's not difficult finding various posts describing the rapture they've experienced while listening to their Modwright Transporters. You'll find similar expressions of ecstasy in the Empirical Audio circle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg617985;topicseen#new
-Roy
Over the years there have been many pieces of gear that have been described this way by either pro reviewers and / or actual owners.
I have owned some of this gear and never experienced either the ecstacy nor the rapture referred to above. Oftentimes it is simply "flavor the the month" stuff being hyped by the "fan boys". The fervor dies down and the gear fades into obscurity.
Not saying this particular piece of gear falls into that category, or that it is not very good. Just saying that descriptions of orgasmic delight are kindof strong, and sometimes found to be more hyperbole than accurate, so they don't hold much sway with me.
What does hold sway with you?
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If you investigate this thread it's not difficult finding various posts describing the rapture they've experienced while listening to their Modwright Transporters. You'll find similar expressions of ecstasy in the Empirical Audio circle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg617985;topicseen#new
-Roy
Over the years there have been many pieces of gear that have been described this way by either pro reviewers and / or actual owners.
I have owned some of this gear and never experienced either the ecstacy nor the rapture referred to above. Oftentimes it is simply "flavor the the month" stuff being hyped by the "fan boys". The fervor dies down and the gear fades into obscurity.
Not saying this particular piece of gear falls into that category, or that it is not very good. Just saying that descriptions of orgasmic delight are kindof strong, and sometimes found to be more hyperbole than accurate, so they don't hold much sway with me.
What does hold sway with you?
Hearing it for myself.
Certainly not over the top descriptions. Seen it too many times. Many times from guys who a month later have moved on to a different piece of gear, and are describing it the same way. And a month later, it is something else again.
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toob,
So, from your point of view, there's no point in reading reviews on this forum to get info that would help with a prospective purchase. How do you determine what you buy if not from surveying opinions on forums? Have you ever purchased gear without first auditioning it? I know that many small audio outfits allow a return policy but it's still a big hassle to haphazardly audition a variety of gear let alone shipping costs.
-Roy
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toob,
So, from your point of view, there's no point in reading reviews on this forum to get info that would help with a prospective purchase. How do you determine what you buy if not from surveying opinions on forums? Have you ever purchased gear without first auditioning it? I know that many small audio outfits allow a return policy but it's still a big hassle to haphazardly audition a variety of gear let alone shipping costs.
-Roy
Oh...I use pro and owner reviews all the time. But just to help me assemble a short list. I just meant that I am not hugely influenced by ga-ga and over the top descriptions of the latest and greatest. A very strong consensus over a period of time has a greater influence on me.
And I do buy gear unheard all the time...almost exclusively. If something interests me, I just buy it and try it out in my system. Buy it at a good price and there is very little risk of loss on resale if it doesn't work.
I guess I was just venting a little bit at the whole Pied Piper and fan boy mentality that I see a lot of on here.
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That's exactly how I use reviews....are you really me, trubluvr? aa :icon_lol:
I like using AudioReview.com myself (tho it seems like less reviews there over time) or, if it's widely available commercial item at Amazon.com (the review of an item). It gives you a good cross-section of references to draw from in assessing a unit - sound unheard :|
They almost always ferret out the gear that tends to be defective or some ergonomic issues.
John
Oh...I use pro and owner reviews all the time. But just to help me assemble a short list. I just meant that I am not hugely influenced by ga-ga and over the top descriptions of the latest and greatest. A very strong consensus over a period of time has a greater influence on me.
And I do buy gear unheard all the time...almost exclusively. If something interests me, I just buy it and try it out in my system. Buy it at a good price and there is very little risk of loss on resale if it doesn't work.
I guess I was just venting a little bit at the whole Pied Piper and fan boy mentality that I see a lot of on here.
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toob,
So, from your point of view, there's no point in reading reviews on this forum to get info that would help with a prospective purchase. How do you determine what you buy if not from surveying opinions on forums? Have you ever purchased gear without first auditioning it? I know that many small audio outfits allow a return policy but it's still a big hassle to haphazardly audition a variety of gear let alone shipping costs.
-Roy
Oh...I use pro and owner reviews all the time. But just to help me assemble a short list. I just meant that I am not hugely influenced by ga-ga and over the top descriptions of the latest and greatest. A very strong consensus over a period of time has a greater influence on me.
And I do buy gear unheard all the time...almost exclusively. If something interests me, I just buy it and try it out in my system. Buy it at a good price and there is very little risk of loss on resale if it doesn't work.
I guess I was just venting a little bit at the whole Pied Piper and fan boy mentality that I see a lot of on here.
OK, you and I agree. :thumb: I purchase gear using similar methods. Yes, there are fanboys on almost all of the Manufactures forums. It's a treacherous audio jungle out there. :evil: One must be the shrewd buyer or get eaten alive. :wink: :lol:
Whoops... we're getting WAY off topic.
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Yes Siree Mr. Chair guy! I use the same sources.
I tend to pay more attention to tons of comments over a period of time from actual owners and users. I also look at the rest of their systems and previously owned gear to get an insight into their "ears" and preferences / priorities. From this, I am usually pretty good at figuring out if it is "for me" or not. Much more helpful than pro reviews.
I do read audio boards but tend to be cynical and mistrusting of hyperbole and excessive excitement about the "latest and greatest". I've seen too much blather like that over the years on gear that ultimately just isn't good enough to have any staying power.
:roll:
If something withstands the test of time, there probably is something of note there. Ultimately, the test of time separates the wheat from the chaff, and will get my attention.
Otherwise I just shrug my shoulders and say.....we'll see.
:dunno:
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toobluvr...
Oftentimes it is simply "flavor the the month" stuff being hyped by the "fan boys".
Yeah....can't trust those "Fanboys"...their a motley crew John.... :jester:
(http://idleparis.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/fanboys-300x300.jpg)
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toobluvr...
Oftentimes it is simply "flavor the the month" stuff being hyped by the "fan boys".
Yeah....can't trust those "Fanboys"...their a motley crew John.... :jester:
(http://idleparis.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/fanboys-300x300.jpg)
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Any top 20 hits?
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Ultimately, vinyl appeals to my aesthetics, but most of my music collection is issued on CD only (post '90). New issue LPs tend to cost 50% more than CDs mitigating any cost benefits. Also, LPs make it hard to add music to portable players unless they come with the CD or mp3 downloads.
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One HUGE thing that should be noted is that Vinyl is an experience best enjoyed in smaller rooms. It doesn't have the dynamic range (no matter how we try to bend reality with new cartridge or table it cannot be changed) and doesn't 'charge' the room as digital technologies do.
:lol: Sorry Chair Guy, but I don't agree with that statement...I have been to enough parties in the 70's and early 80's in very large spaces, some of them outside spaces, and felt the pounding basslines and piercing horn-blasts to dislodge loose fillings...this at a time when vinyl ruled the Land.
I dare say it may be the undersized speakers or power amps that fails to 'charge' the larger spaces, not the source.
As for the CD vs LP bonger, imo there are many cds that equal or surpass their LP counterparts, and many that don't. CDs got their appeal, just like vinyl does...pick your poison.
Of course, since I grew up with vinyl, it will always have a special place in my emotional disposition. But faced with the current option at the counter, cd or vinyl, I most likely will buy the cd. aa
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Well mastered CD's as well as SACD's certainly are a step up over the vast majority of poor sounding CD's out there, but vinyl still rules from a purely "real" sounding standpoint.
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Like Morpheus said in the Matrix..."what is real? Do you think that is air you are breathing right now" aa
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I agree with Jeff... it completely depends on the recording and mastering. However, in my experience, if the recording is superb and your system is revealing, it always sounds far better and more musical on vinyl.
Alón
My system is incredibly revealing. I just managed to buy a really good cd player. I'm pretty much of the mind that exceptionally well recorded vinyl sounds a click or two better, but most times the CD is just as good. Certainly good enough that I don't want to bother with vinyl anymore unless it's really amazing.
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Pray-tell, Jeff, if it does not compromise your publishing position -- what magic CD player are you using?
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I agree with Jeff... it completely depends on the recording and mastering. However, in my experience, if the recording is superb and your system is revealing, it always sounds far better and more musical on vinyl.
Alón
My system is incredibly revealing. I just managed to buy a really good cd player. I'm pretty much of the mind that exceptionally well recorded vinyl sounds a click or two better, but most times the CD is just as good. Certainly good enough that I don't want to bother with vinyl anymore unless it's really amazing.
Hey, you're back! Sweet!
Peace,
Lee
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Vinyl & tubes/valves are in my opinion Antiques. Hi-Rez SACD is the way forward and I am a retired tonearm & cartridge manufacturer. Even at 79 yrs of age I can detect and hear the diferences immediately. Obviously it is the quality of the recording of the disc that counts.
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I try to listen to as many vinyl setups as I can to see if I can ever get that "I want it" results. Many times when I hear these setups, it just does not do it for me. I have heard a couple that were very nice, but most of the time, they do not - even with highly touted "audiophile" source.
Would the vinyl people here attribute this to poor setup of the TT?
There have also been times when the people trying to convince me which is better (one way or the other) and compare two recordings from the same group, one of the recordings is pure crap trying to make the solution obvious. Again I have heard this both ways from both camps.
So do I prefer sonically to answer the original post? I prefer the CD/SACD format with its ease of use but I recognize that each can sound very good. One thing that really has me in the digital end is MCH Classical music, when MCH is done right (Ambiance and hall recreation, not instruments behind me)
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OK, I'll say it (and I can take the flak):
The question whether people prefer one format's sound or the other will always divide us into camps -- as it should -- because we're talking about people's preferences, something that cannot be argued, period.
Personally, while I find that digital has come a long way and sounds damn good these days, a correctly set up analog front end will always blow away digital in terms of musicality, soundstage and what I can only call "aliveness." Technically, there is a very good reason for this to be true: Analog recording and reproduction is based on a continuous modulation of sound, so that one second of music is recorded and played back (although imperfectly) in its entirety... whereas in the digital process, a computer slices and dices that second of music into 44,100 pieces (or higher for high rez formats) and assigns them a number... The problem lies in that there is missing information (music!) between these numbered points of sound that the computer has to bridge by approximating what it "thinks" should have been there!
DACs running in series were introduced years ago to tighten up these dead spaces between samples of sound and make CDs sound less harsh, and that succeeded nicely. CDs today sound great! But no amount of oversampling is going to put the missing music back in the recording. Yes, even on high rez formats like SACD, there is still music missing that makes it more difficult for digital set ups to resolve ambient cues, spatial dynamics and air. I believe this is why analog sounds more Alive to me.
OK, open season, bring it on.
Alón
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Yes,
Digital music is reconstituted music. However close the approximation get to the original waveform, there will always be an asymptotic gulf...
You take a dried Shiitake mushroom and soak it in water for a day or two. It comes back pretty good and tastes good too, albeit with a different, chewy texture from a fresh one. But it doesn't have the fresh succulence of a live mushroom just sauted in a hot wok. The living component, the elan vital, is missing...
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Vinyl & tubes/valves are in my opinion Antiques. Hi-Rez SACD is the way forward and I am a retired tonearm & cartridge manufacturer. Even at 79 yrs of age I can detect and hear the differences immediately. Obviously it is the quality of the recording of the disc that counts.
Welcome to AC Disbeliever! I largely agree with everything in your post, save the hi-rez SACD comment. You really need to hear a computer based network system, with a great DAC, to hear the potential of standard redbook. Tubes and vinyl ARE antiques and the lure of the nostalgia factor cannot be underestimated. The inherent flaws of each require the expenditure of large sums of cash to mitigate their downsides. The inherent flaws of digital. OTOH, require less cash to realise pleasing behavior. I grew up with vinyl. I NEVER liked the rituals required to get reasonably clean, well adjusted, rumble and feedback free playback. When my vinyl collection was lost in a move, circa 1981, I was a ripe candidate for the CD revolution. It didn't hurt that at the time I had a system that minimized, to a degree, the harshness of the medium at that time, and maximized the positive attributes. I never looked back. While there are downsides to CD/digital playback, the positives far outweigh the weaknesses. I realize others feel different. I've gotten over it. I wish that those whose opinions differ from mine would get over it.
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OK, I'll say it (and I can take the flak):
The question whether people prefer one format's sound or the other will always divide us into camps -- as it should -- because we're talking about people's preferences, something that cannot be argued, period.
Personally, while I find that digital has come a long way and sounds damn good these days, a correctly set up analog front end will always blow away digital in terms of musicality, soundstage and what I can only call "aliveness." Technically, there is a very good reason for this to be true: Analog recording and reproduction is based on a continuous modulation of sound, so that one second of music is recorded and played back (although imperfectly) in its entirety... whereas in the digital process, a computer slices and dices that second of music into 44,100 pieces (or higher for high rez formats) and assigns them a number... The problem lies in that there is missing information (music!) between these numbered points of sound that the computer has to bridge by approximating what it "thinks" should have been there!
DACs running in series were introduced years ago to tighten up these dead spaces between samples of sound and make CDs sound less harsh, and that succeeded nicely. CDs today sound great! But no amount of oversampling is going to put the missing music back in the recording. Yes, even on high rez formats like SACD, there is still music missing that makes it more difficult for digital set ups to resolve ambient cues, spatial dynamics and air. I believe this is why analog sounds more Alive to me.
OK, open season, bring it on.
Alón
Hi Alón, thanks for the laugh. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
First you explain quite accurately that musical preference is just that, a personal preference that can't be agrued,,,period! :notworthy:
So what do you do next? Argue you're personal preference point and then state it's open season, bring it on? :scratch:
This is got to be the ultimate post in contradictions that I've seen in quite some time and I really have to thank you for starting my day with an ear to ear grin. aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa
Cheers,
Robin
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Konut,
Your post is very much my feeling as well. Thank you. With a great, musical DAC (Modwright TP, Weiss Minerva, Berkeley AlphaDAC, etc.) the potential of redbook is realized, and it is good...very very good. I will, however, also take the position that, like Disbeliever, I too think that hi-rez is the future. if you've ever heard 24/192 done right (on that same musical DAC), or hi-rez SACD done right, then even vinylphiles will be forced to be impressed by the 192,000+ points that this format draws in a single second. Those points can draw a sine wave pretty damn nicely, and the tradeoffs of black backgrounds, deep soundstages and ridiculously convenient access will trump widely the theoretical analog advantages of vinyl playback in a less-than-$100k system. My $.02, YMMV. :)
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Hey Robin, (satfrat)
It's nice when someone gets my wry sense of humor... Thanks! BTW, I expected much more flak.
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Vinyl & tubes/valves are in my opinion Antiques. Hi-Rez SACD is the way forward and I am a retired tonearm & cartridge manufacturer. Even at 79 yrs of age I can detect and hear the diferences immediately. Obviously it is the quality of the recording of the disc that counts.
Hey, welcome to AC! The quality of the recording counts for much, to be sure.
You don't find SACD to sound absolutely freaky at all? I've heard it time and time again, and I have but normal hearing of a 46 year old male in general good health, but it sounds totally freaky to me. I've read (way beyond my technical reach as a marketing fella') that Sony's PC M technology is plagued by phasing errors. I cannot speak to that...I can only say SACD sounds damn weird.
DVD-A (even DVD) is a step in the right direction for digital technologies....but in comparison to my vinyl setup still falls short.
I'd LOVE for it to be otherwise...I don't relish the labor-intensive work and critical care that vinyl requires...but I play what gives me goosebumps, what sounds like live music that I have heard. ONLY vinyl does that (most notably on piano, for me...which is often painful to hear on CD and scads better on DVD-A) :violin:
....and a hello to my Marin Co.-mate, Alon, too :wave:
John
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I try to listen to as many vinyl setups as I can to see if I can ever get that "I want it" results. Many times when I hear these setups, it just does not do it for me. I have heard a couple that were very nice, but most of the time, they do not - even with highly touted "audiophile" source.
Would the vinyl people here attribute this to poor setup of the TT?
I ditched vinyl in 2003.....like so many vinylphools I was served the belt drive myth of superiority. I loved the Townshend (belt drive) Rock back in 1987 I had...but never liked my Thorens TD-316 I had from 1988 to 2003.
While CD's never lit my fire...they exhibited uniformly good speed control, less or no wow or flutter, and were 'firm' sounding, etc. So, I ditched vinyl for almost 4 years.
Having not enjoyed music for those 4 years, I tiptoed my way back into vinyl: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=47865.0
Direct Drive and Grado's brought me back with a vengeance....everything else thus far heard has either (generally, and only that there have been some exceptions) sounded off pitch/indistinct (belt drives) or tonally irritating/etched/thin (cartridges).
It eventually took me >$3000 in (new) gear including a VPI SDS unit to best that cheap direct drive unit...so belt drive can beat direct drive, but at considerably higher costs than the Japanese sold them mass-produced a couple decades ago.
So, before you bail from vinyl...go buy a cheap direct drive deck from the early-80's, one with damped arm best, tie a Grado on it (with Longhorn mod, preferably) and get a record cleaning machine (and 2 hours of your time and 10lbs of plast-i-clay). This will set you back maybe $600 on the used market :)
Then patch that thru a full-functioned preamp (not phono stage where additional parasitic losses are created along the way) to your amp(s). Preferably a dual mono full function preamp for the best results :thumb:
That's my prescription for vinyl success...other may feel otherwise (don't take it as iconoclast fact, okay? aa). But, as you have already been disappointed with the vinyl you've heard, you may have it those systems in the more familiar vinylphool setups of belt drive / moving coil cartridge / separate phono stage (often limp-sounding tube ones at that)
John
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But, as you have already been disappointed with the vinyl you've heard, you may have it those systems in the more familiar vinylphool setups of belt drive / moving coil cartridge / separate phono stage (often limp-sounding tube ones at that)
John
My phoolish gig with limp-sounding tube is giving me just the right tones to get me hard. aa
Thank you. 8)
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:lol:
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But, as you have already been disappointed with the vinyl you've heard, you may have it those systems in the more familiar vinylphool setups of belt drive / moving coil cartridge / separate phono stage (often limp-sounding tube ones at that)
John
My phoolish gig with limp-sounding tube is giving me just the right tones to get me hard. aa
Thank you. 8)
rim,
i remember the last listening session i took part in,over at your house - excellent sound coming out of the warious digital combo's we were trying, for several hours... then... you put on a record!!! thank you!!! :thumb:
doug s.
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Hey John,
I agree that perfect speed is really important to show off vinyl's capacity to reproduce goose bump creating music. Your SDS is the audiophile equivalent of the Quartz Locked Loop (or something like that) technology that kept those Technics SL 1200s right on the money at 33 1/3. Of course, transferring motor noise to the platter was an inherent problem.
Let me add one more thing that in my mind is irreplaceable in an analog set up: a heavy, isolated, preferably suspended turntable. Nothing muddies up the sound of vinyl like external and internal vibrations that reach and confuse the cartridge.
PS. So surprised there aren't more audiofools in Marin County.
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Digital music is reconstituted music.
But aren't some of the new vinyl releases actually recorded digitally (DSD)???? If known, do these vinyl release sound reconstituted?? :D Has anyone ever done a comparison of known new vinyl releases to see if versions can be identified by sound as DSD???
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DTB300, et al.
Last night I was listening to a beautiful LP by Ella Fitzgerald recorded on one my favorite labels, Verve. It was the first time I'd ever heard it, and it had already gone through my usual cleaning process. Ellis voice was deep and rich, yet something didn't sound right... there is some sort of veil over the music which made it less involving, less emotional. This wasn't the Verve sound I was accustomed to, so I put on the reading glasses and read the liner notes to find that indeed it was a digital recording. Whether it's a gift or a burden, somehow I can always tell. That's why I focus on older recordings from used record stores and clean them up. It has been very satisfying!
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PS. So surprised there aren't more audiofools in Marin County.
According to this very unofficial sign-in, we're the only ones among 247,000 (mostly happy) souls :icon_lol: The others are on the Dipsea Trail, hiking Mount Tam or on their boats in the Bay.
You need to sign-in there to make it official that there is at least two of us :thumb:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42653.0
John
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Hey Robin, (satfrat)
It's nice when someone gets my wry sense of humor... Thanks! BTW, I expected much more flak.
Yeh, there's a lot of flac going around nowadays. :green:
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Granted my phono system is close to state of the art. I've auditioned the best digital including original 24/192 master hard drives (same recording & playback hard drive) by Andrew Jones on TAD Ref speakers in multi-channel w/ about 10 Pass monster amps (Boz Scaggs' My Funny Valentine) at CES a few years ago. This digital had it's magic, fer sure; in fact IIRC I cried. It was just before closing that day & a very quiet uninterupted experience.
But comparing my phono to similarly excellent Red Book, Red Book is a joke, silly, a cartoon. As someone who has a phono system similar to mine said today, "And CD exists exactly why...?" I'm thinking the only answer is convenience & to sell a bunch of different stuff than what was already flooding the market.
Vinyl sales didn't double last year for no good reason.
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Vinyl sales doubling is a great thing! Do you think it's due to the audiophile/forum guys, or do you think it's sneaking it's way back into mainstream?
I was very surprised to see a USB turntable make its way back on the shelves of Walmart (type stores) a year or so ago.
You think just maybe the general public is after this?
Also, do you have a link to the sales numbers? Just for curiosity sake?
Bob
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It's no joke, Bob: http://abcnews.go.com/OnCampus/Story?id=7270049&page=1
While it is starting from a small base of support in units sold....if it has healthy increases for a few years it might be a factor in music sales again. Clearly it cannot be just nostalgia alone driving this trend. Sonic quality must be at some point a driving force in it...as it certainly isn't convenience or even cost the factor here (with reasonably good quality playback on DVD players for $59 thes days)
Right now there are not many pressing plants about (they were shuttered in/by the 90's), but once a few more mass-oriented plants and built, we may have a real revival in swing.
I KNOW we're nudging you ever closer to your vinyl future, Senor Bob aa
John
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Everytime I read these threads I seriously want to go and hear a top notch vinyl system. Been awhile since I've really listened to one. Definitely haven't been apart of any A/B comparisons. Only problem is it's hard for me to think of investing so much into a format that may not allow for flexibility like digital. But I sure would like to put together a system but don't like hearing I need to invest $5K to get the magic of vinyl.
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I bet that it's the widespread compression used by the recording engineers in most popular music that's causing many to take a second look at vinyl.
-Roy
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Vinyl sales doubling is a great thing! Do you think it's due to the audiophile/forum guys, or do you think it's sneaking it's way back into mainstream?
I was very surprised to see a USB turntable make its way back on the shelves of Walmart (type stores) a year or so ago.
You think just maybe the general public is after this?
Also, do you have a link to the sales numbers? Just for curiosity sake?
Bob
Defintly sneaking its way back into mainstream I haunt three local record stores who sell new and used vinyl and for every old audiophile looking for that classic album theirs three kids culling through the wax. Its comming back hard and fast
ED
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Everytime I read these threads I seriously want to go and hear a top notch vinyl system. Been awhile since I've really listened to one. Definitely haven't been apart of any A/B comparisons. Only problem is it's hard for me to think of investing so much into a format that may not allow for flexibility like digital. But I sure would like to put together a system but don't like hearing I need to invest $5K to get the magic of vinyl.
I also would like to hear a top notch vinyl rig but I have no plans to invest in one. I will keep my ModWright Transporter until a better streaming player comes along!
Ken
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That's cool to see it's hitting the main stream media. Very good news indeed. If nothing else, it may be a sign people are looking for higher quality (READ: less compression) regardless of the playback format.
Launche - I'll tell you what man, the first time I'd heard a REAL vinyl rig was totally a surprise. It was a couple years ago at a local STL audio meet. The guy owned a SqueezeBox (everything was super-uber modded to the "inth" degree). of course it all sounded awesome. Well, there I sit with my eyes closed wondering who the artists was that was singing to ME. I look over at the SqueezeBox and low and behold the damn thing was turned off. :scratch:
I look over at the turntable and the needle is doin' it's magic. :o
Now remember, I've not heard a quality TT in my entire life up to that point. And I hadn't heard vinyl in 25-30 years prior to that. So, needless to say I was totally blown away. SOLD, right then and there. Bingo... that's what it's all about!
John, the day a phono pre falls in my lap, I'll have vinyl spinning. I've already got a AR-XA that's been "tuned up". I've even got a few pieces of black round things bought from ebay. They've even been cleaned up.
I'm ready, it's just there's no pre in the rig.
Bob
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But I sure would like to put together a system but don't like hearing I need to invest $5K to get the magic of vinyl.
You do not need to invest that....if you dip your toes in the used market, you can invest 1/3 of that and get much of the flavor. Deck, modeling clay (and 2 hours of your time), record cleaning machine/inexpensive chemicals, cartridge and phono stage (or, preferred for me, a full featured preamp w/phono).
My current deck cost me $400...a top notch direct drive unit from 1985 from JVC. I probably won't (clearly) top it until I reach $2500 in the new market today...and, it is fully automatic so it takes much (not all, tho :( ) of the bother from vinyl spinning.
Nirvana is closer than you think it would be :thumb: (nudge, nudge)
John aa
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I really have to agree with John, if your not sure about jumping into vinyl a a nice DD TT with a at440 cartridge or a grado longhorn to see if you can put up with all the nuances of vinyl is a good way to start Before warned thought if you get the vinyl bug its devious slope to audio Nirvana. When its dune right there is nothing better YMMV
ED
But I sure would like to put together a system but don't like hearing I need to invest $5K to get the magic of vinyl.
You do not need to invest that....if you dip your toes in the used market, you can invest 1/3 of that and get much of the flavor. Deck, modeling clay (and 2 hours of your time), record cleaning machine/inexpensive chemicals, cartridge and phono stage (or, preferred for me, a full featured preamp w/phono).
My current deck cost me $400...a top notch direct drive unit from 1985 from JVC. I probably won't (clearly) top it until I reach $2500 in the new market today...and, it is fully automatic so it takes much (not all, tho :( ) of the bother from vinyl spinning.
Nirvana is closer than you think it would be :thumb: (nudge, nudge)
John aa
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I look over at the turntable and the needle is doin' it's magic. :o
Now remember, I've not heard a quality TT in my entire life up to that point. And I hadn't heard vinyl in 25-30 years prior to that. So, needless to say I was totally blown away. SOLD, right then and there. Bingo... that's what it's all about!
John, the day a phono pre falls in my lap, I'll have vinyl spinning. I've already got a AR-XA that's been "tuned up". I've even got a few pieces of black round things bought from ebay. They've even been cleaned up.
I'm ready, it's just there's no pre in the rig.
Bob
Ooooo Bo-b....I gotta' fully refurbished Advent 300 receiver here with completely redone guts. It can be used as a standalone phono stage if you like by running IC's from the tape outs (it bypasses the volume control this way so you can use your volume control on your preamp)
It's a receiver, 15 watter, and (reportedly) glorious at that. You run very efficient speakers, it's all you likely need and can use as a standalone with everything you need.
From tape outs, you can use as either or both your phono stage or FM tuner.
The poor guy is just sitting here in it's shipping box looking for someone to keep it warm and happy for a few months (gratis) until you catch the vinyl fever and buy that $5,000 preamp w/phono :wink:
If you PM me with your address, it'll show up next week in St. Louis :thumb:
Here's a little on it:
http://www.soundofthewood.com/preamptuners.html
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58995.20
(ps, I don't use it as it is plagued by RF issues here so close to San Fran...but you're in the boonies, as was modder David Plummer, who had no such issues at his shop in the New Hampshire woods). I never tried it as receiver, but the line, FM and phono stage is exemplary. It even has dial-a-load...so you can properly load any MM cartridge from 0 to 100K ohms :))
John :wink:
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:o Wow John. You're cool, that's awesome. You'll be receiving a PM containing the good, the bad and the ugly here shortly. :thumb:
Bob
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Hey John,
Your offer is most generous. Thank you very much. However, I must reconsider receiving the unit.
In the interest of full disclosure, I was laid off on Friday. With the way things look so far, the chances for paychecks anytime soon seem doubtful. Money for "toy stuff" is zero... That being said, finding the money for shipping might be hard to do. Knowing someday you'll send a message saying, "Ok Bob, send it back now". My level of integrity dictates that the item must be boxed and shipped within a day or two upon your request. I'm not sure I could promise a speedy return of the preamp. That being said, I feel I would sleep better at night knowing I'm not in possession of equipment I can't return immediately.
So if you would, think pleasant thoughts for me while you're spinning vinyl.
Instead of the preamp, maybe you could send me some telepathic positive Mo-Jo. aa
In the mean time, my SqueezeBox has been getting a serious workout the past few days while my job search continues. That's what I need to be concentrating on right now, not integrating another piece of equipment in the system.
Besides, if the wife came down here while I'm playing with yet another new audio toy instead of looking for a job....... :o :whip:
Thank you my friend,
Bob
-- Sorry for the OT gentleman, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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I know the question is a loaded one in a Vinyl Circle, but it doesn't fit really anywhere else these days at AC.
You're just out to cause trouble these days with these loaded questions. :)
Yes, given the same recording, I greatly prefer CDs over vinyl.
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I bet that it's the widespread compression used by the recording engineers in most popular music that's causing many to take a second look at vinyl.
-Roy
Why? Because recordings mastered to LP already have less dynamic range so the extra compression producers and record executives are demanding these days is less noticeable?
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Follow the way, Little Grasshoppers (budget-conscious audionutz thinking about jumping into vinyl)...follow the way.....
I heard John the facilitator's TT/arm/cart at my house. It had the magic. I'd follow exactly whatever was John's advice. I think you can get it up & running by spending some time shopping for probably under a grand.
John if you haven't heard Bill Berndt's phono preamp please do whenever possible. (BTW he also got the latest arm kit up & running, being Jeff Spall's Audio Mods/Rega from the UK). Bill says parts about $150 for the phono preamp but Peter T. said lots of work assembling parts suppliers (maybe you or I can get the parts supplier list from Peter T. & publish). This phono preamp is the cat's meow for chump change, about 5 tubes IIRC, all easy point to point. I'll probably build one myself later.
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In the interest of full disclosure, I was laid off on Friday. With the way things look so far, the chances for paychecks anytime soon seem doubtful. Money for "toy stuff" is zero... That being said, finding the money for shipping might be hard to do. Knowing someday you'll send a message saying, "Ok Bob, send it back now". My level of integrity dictates that the item must be boxed and shipped within a day or two upon your request. I'm not sure I could promise a speedy return of the preamp. That being said, I feel I would sleep better at night knowing I'm not in possession of equipment I can't return immediately.
So if you would, think pleasant thoughts for me while you're spinning vinyl.
Instead of the preamp, maybe you could send me some telepathic positive Mo-Jo. aa
Bob, I totally understand...and operate much the same.
It's a fairly small unit, cheap to ship (12 lbs + box). You could put it on my UPS bill back to me. Seriously, no strings at all attached - I just want you to enjoy vinyl life a bit. Just let me know whenever you'd like to (or if you want to) try...don't be shy. Really.
But, I understand if that still does not sway you. I ditched my stereo for 5+ years (1994-thru almost 2000) as I got married, bought a house, a opened my first two businesses. Audio has always been a distraction for me...tho the music is so soothing to the soul. I used a Panasonic boombox for almost 6 years and didn't remember being so unhappy :roll:
That might just be because of my tin ears :lol:
20 potential suitors for SAAB I've read....I'm pleasantly surprised. Too bad the gracious deal with the Volvo guys didn't work out. It's probably because one of those guys is getting the axe, too soon :(
John 8)
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Last night I was listening to a beautiful LP by Ella Fitzgerald recorded on one my favorite labels, Verve. It was the first time I'd ever heard it, and it had already gone through my usual cleaning process. Ellis voice was deep and rich, yet something didn't sound right... there is some sort of veil over the music which made it less involving, less emotional. This wasn't the Verve sound I was accustomed to, so I put on the reading glasses and read the liner notes to find that indeed it was a digital recording.
Thanks for your input. But I am more interested in NEWLY recorded for vinyl, not a remaster of some original source, and how they sound to the vinyl group - Telarc label is one who has done it for a bit if I am not mistaken.
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DTB300,
Thanks for clarifying. So far IMO, the most impressive digital recording music label has been Chesky. Unfortunately, they have stopped producing LPs and now only produce CDs. Although I say the sound is impressive, it's a bit "in-your-face" and to me it still sounds digital and not as involving.
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Bob in St.Louis...
In the interest of full disclosure, I was laid off on Friday.
Sorry to read that Bob...good luck with the new job search... :thumb:
(Since you will have some time on your hands...I'd take John's offer of the equipment loan....give it a listen... :wink:)
Chris
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That will just make me want to spend money on records. :wink:
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That will just make me want to spend money on records. :wink:
Used records are cheaper than Cd's Bob.... :wink:
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That will just make me want to spend money on records. :wink:
Used records are cheaper than Cd's Bob.... :wink:
And lots of new vinyl is the same price as CD......11 to 15 dollars.
Check the online catalogs: Music Direct, Acoustic Sounds, Elusive Disc, Lost Highway, etc.
Even Amazon has lots of vinyl!
:thumb:
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Last night's listening session nailed it for me. After a few tequila pineapple cocktails I didn't care what format the music comes was in. As a matter of fact I can't remember if the last thing I listen too was vinyl or cd. bottoms up :banana piano: :dance: :wine: :singing: :drums: :guitar:
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Last night's listening session nailed it for me. After a few tequila pineapple cocktails I didn't care what format the music comes was in. As a matter of fact I can't remember if the last thing I listen too was vinyl or cd. bottoms up :banana piano: :dance: :wine: :singing: :drums: :guitar:
Ahhhhh, the cheap tweek...guaranteed to make your system sound better!
Choose your poison!
:beer: :smoke:
aa
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Last night's listening session nailed it for me. After a few tequila pineapple cocktails I didn't care what format the music comes was in. As a matter of fact I can't remember if the last thing I listen too was vinyl or cd. bottoms up :banana piano: :dance: :wine: :singing: :drums: :guitar:
Won't help me maintain my girlish figure :nono:....but what the heck: RECIPE PLEASE!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:
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Thanks for clarifying. So far IMO, the most impressive digital recording music label has been Chesky. Unfortunately, they have stopped producing LPs and now only produce CDs. Although I say the sound is impressive, it's a bit "in-your-face" and to me it still sounds digital and not as involving.
Chesky and their CD/SACD only releases - wish they had some more artists I liked.
I thought I remember reading a post somewhere from Michael Bishop (Telarc when they were still around) where Telarc did ALL their new recordings (not sure of length of time this had been done) in DSD regardless of the final destination. Since a company would has a DSD recording, I doubt they would also do a non-DSD one too - cost prohibitive? Wonder is these NEW vinyl releases even mention if they were DSD originals or not? So, some new vinyl releases may have originated from digital though thought to be analog all the way. GASP!@!@! :)
For remasters, they are hit and miss for me in regards to sound quality.
But I try to listen to vinyl setups any time I can and I am still looking for that "got to have it" feeling but have not heard it yet. Some have been nice sounding, but not live without it stuff.
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Dan,
When I get my phonostage back from upgrading, I will invite you over. I have been going around E-bay collecting all the recordings of my favorite Diva on records. I found some rare ones in France and Germany. I have this La Traviata http://www.amazon.com/Verdi-Traviata-Hybrid-SACD-Giuseppe/dp/B0002CX4R2 (http://www.amazon.com/Verdi-Traviata-Hybrid-SACD-Giuseppe/dp/B0002CX4R2) on SACD, CD and vinyl. You can hear them all if you want.
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When I get my phonostage back from upgrading, I will invite you over. I have been going around E-bay collecting all the recordings of my favorite Diva on records. I found some rare ones in France and Germany. I have this La Traviata http://www.amazon.com/Verdi-Traviata-Hybrid-SACD-Giuseppe/dp/B0002CX4R2 (http://www.amazon.com/Verdi-Traviata-Hybrid-SACD-Giuseppe/dp/B0002CX4R2) on SACD, CD and vinyl. You can hear them all if you want.
I have this one: http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6029859&style=classical I will have to look for that version one day....
But is your vinyl version of these three originally recorded in DSD?? That is what I am curious about with Vinyl. That discussion is tiring to me, and like I stated before, I am not here to say this format is better than that, we each have our preferences and should just enjoy our music and the ability to sit and listen to it.
Formats can sound completely different based on how they are made, mastered, produced etc., and each format does not dictate it is better just because of the format.
BTW, you still running your Oracle TT setup?? Heard one at CommandAv a couple of months ago.
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You're just out to cause trouble these days with these loaded questions. :)
Yes, given the same recording, I greatly prefer CDs over vinyl.
turkey, why do i sometimes get the impression that some of your posts yust attempt to inflame? :scratch: it is truly hard to imagine anyone, who when listening to decent winyl and digital front ends w/the same recording in these two formats, on the same system, who would prefer the digital. you are the first i have ever heard say this. even folks i know w/o analog rigs readily admit the superiority of winyl when a-b'd in such a manner.
there are only a few times where i have had the opportunity to compare winyl w/digital, on the same actual recording, per above scenario. every time the winyl sounded better, hands down. w/the digital, it was a mite tighter in the wery low bass, but the winyl was yust so much more musical, top to bottom. including the bass. it was yust more palpably real. recordings that i specifically remember include ry cooder's buena wista social club, and patricia barbour's modern cool and cafe blue.
there is one case where i prefer my cd over my winyl - santana's recording of caravanserai. i have bought several copies over the years, all have bad surface noise. this was true of the first copy i bought, years ago, when this first came out. which is sad, really, cuz the cd remaster is really quite compressed. it's only cuz i have a dbx 3bx dynamic range expander that i can put into the signal path thru a tape loop, that makes the cd listenable. otherwise i would put up w/the surface noise...
there's also another case where i bought the winyl issue instead of the cd, cuz i read that the cd was so badly mastered & compressed that it ruined the recording. unfortunately the album was also horribly compressed. tho i have never heard the cd, it's hard to imagine it could be worse. once again, my dbx 3bx makes it listenable. coincidentally, it's also a santana recording - supernatural...
ymmv,
doug s.
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My setup is good enough to hear the failings in the equipment used to record the music and the unatural effects of multiple microphones in a space or the 'cut and paste' sound that characterises a mixed recording. I can go further into percieved detail concerning weather, I realise it is probably impossible for some of you to believe me when I say I have had fairly certain perceptions of temperature and humidity or time of year for a recording from the sound of the ambience. The position of doors, windows, the floor materials and height of ceiling but occasionally I can hear the position of the equipment used to make the recording. Sound is perhaps the most honest sense, more so than sight.
Truely the best sounding recording is achieved with one or two microphones, valve equipment and an audible noise floor together with a good microphone distance from the instrument, the instrument was actually designed to be listened to from a certain distance and close micing gives the incorrect impression of the instrument.
There is no other purpose in me writing on here than to share my experiences in hifi. I only share them to help others, I would be lying if I said cd's can sound as good as vinyl, because they cannot. I know, I've been there and done it.
My stereo is single source, two channel, SET from top to bottom and cost about £25,000 (well spent) and no digital format will ever sound as good.
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Truely the best sounding recording is achieved with valve equipment and an audible noise floor
Really now.....................hmmmm :roll:
I would be lying if I said cd's can sound as good as vinyl, because they cannot. I know, I've been there and done it.
no digital format will ever sound as good.
You may have been there .....done that..... but trust me young man by your quoted statement above you've never listened to a top notch digital front end.
Now granted your entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, but by what you have said, myself and plenty of others know differently ! :)
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I pretty much agree with browntrout...except I'd phrase one particular phrase differently:
"No digital format sounds as good today, but the power of tomorrow can never be discounted"
Frankly, not too many folks listening to digital that've heard a well-tuned vinyl system disagree sonically....but when convenience is factored into the equation, a different result is often applied.
:wink: John
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I would prefer vinyl a lot more if I could get my Denon DL103 phono cartridge repaired at a reasonable price in a reasonable amount of time.
I wrote to the guy in the USA who is supposed to be able to do this but no response at all.
It is pretty silly to have to send a phono cartridge off to Europe and pay $300 or so for a stylus replacement.
Any reasonable suggestions?
I borrowed a friend's Denon in the process of playing with a moving coil RIAA phono preamp experiment, and although it was more refined than my Longhorn Grado, it was lacking in dynamics, bass, and just plain musicality. It looks like a great candidate for a Longhorn Stabilizer Bar, but I can't do that on someone else's unit, I need to have mine working again. It needs a new stylus assembly, as is it is broken off flush.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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I can go further into percieved detail concerning weather, I realise it is probably impossible for some of you to believe me when I say I have had fairly certain perceptions of temperature and humidity or time of year for a recording from the sound of the ambience. The position of doors, windows, the floor materials and height of ceiling but occasionally I can hear the position of the equipment used to make the recording.
I can tell what the singer had for lunch............the previous day. aa
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I pretty much agree with browntrout...except I'd phrase one particular phrase differently:
"No digital format sounds as good today, but the power of tomorrow can never be discounted"
Frankly, not too many folks listening to digital that've heard a well-tuned vinyl system disagree sonically....but when convenience is factored into the equation, a different result is often applied.
:wink: John
John,
I'll have to agree. I can't recall the last time I've heard a very well setup vinyl system. My rig is still hampered by a starter grade cart so my opinions on the quality of vinyl vs. computer audio aren't to be considered definitive. :icon_lol: However my digital setup is fairly good but definitely not SOTA.
I think that it would be interesting to have a computer audio/vinyl shootout. Certainly the Modwright Transporter and the various Empirical Audio devices would be the obvious choices on the digital format as well as Bolder Audio's latest modifications of the SB and Duet. I suspect that a SOTA vinyl rig wouldn't be hard to find although transporting the 300 lb. piece of granite that it's sitting on could pose a problem. :wink:
I suspect that vinyl would win but not by much. The gap is narrowing and the convenience of computer audio is very enticing.
-Roy
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Chairguy
This is an interesting question.
TONEPUB (great comment) :D
Having a great CD player and a great turntable, it depends on the mastering...
I've heard better presentation on both, just depends on the recording.
MY EARLIER POST :D
I will say the engineering and production quality varies by a very wide margin from CD to CD and that is what makes a bigger difference. A bad CD will sound very poor on a quality playback system and thus conversly, a good CD will sound fantastic on that same sound system.
HAVE YOU CONSIDERED? :D
How well do you hear? I mean many of us have hearing loss across a certain band of frequencies. Can you hear those differences between vinyl, CD, or other sources?
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MY EARLIER POST Very Happy
I will say the engineering and production quality varies by a very wide margin from CD to CD and that is what makes a bigger difference. A bad CD will sound very poor on a quality playback system and thus conversly, a good CD will sound fantastic on that same sound system. Previous from Geowak...... Man you are 100 % correct on that paragraph,while i will say i feel i have 2 above average cd players,both sure show the differences on all cd's played.And some are good ,better and everything in between.
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Chairguy
HAVE YOU CONSIDERED? :D
How well do you hear? I mean many of us have hearing loss across a certain band of frequencies. Can you hear those differences between vinyl, CD, or other sources?
Yes - absolutely....I'm well aware of my finite time on earth and that despite my best efforts at keeping healthy, the inevitable nonetheless is occurring within :(
But I try gamely to keep it at bay. To whit....
I'm 46yo this year, 5'9"/160 lbs, glucose fasting excellent (a test for pre-diabetes), HDL, HDL/LDL ratio and total cholesterol = 137 = excellent (excellent regardless of age). I had a 4 vial complete blood test a week+ ago so that's how I know.
I sleep a solid 7 hours nightly and work from home (relatively stress free). I do some yoga and play basketball - I'm quite a bit fitter than most of my peers.
I get regular (Chinese medical) 1x monthly massages and chiropractic adjustments 4x yearly (or, as needed). I do not drink, or take drugs, recreational or prescription, of any kind (anymore...I certainly did love my weed a decade ++ ago :smoke:)
I never played in a band or been subject to particularly loud noises for any length of time that might have damaged my hearing (to my knowledge)
All of this is relevant to how well one hears. So in partial answer to your question....I hear the way a pin drops on various formats. And, on vinyl, the pin sounds most real to me 8)
If anything as one ages, the relatively poorer treble from redbook should be less noticeable.....and I'm about as discontented with it today as I was 5 years ago. Nonetheless, the advance for redbook playbook has gone a lot further than I ever thought it would, and at much lower prices, it is nonetheless an inferior sonic format to vinyl.
I'm sorry of that offends anyone's sensibilities - it's what I hear and I'm not going to censor myself from saying so.
Again, my comment is that of today...I cannot predict what changes there might be tomorrow. For me, and for an increasing countless others, vinyl is a great format...and CD is (mostly) merely a very convenient one.
Nonetheless, if you are truly happy listening to whatever you have in your place....that is ALL that ultimately matters. I don't listen to vinyl for your enjoyment - it is solely for mine :thumb:
John
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My setup is good enough to hear the failings in the equipment used to record the music and the unatural effects of multiple microphones in a space or the 'cut and paste' sound that characterises a mixed recording. I can go further into percieved detail concerning weather, I realise it is probably impossible for some of you to believe me when I say I have had fairly certain perceptions of temperature and humidity or time of year for a recording from the sound of the ambience. The position of doors, windows, the floor materials and height of ceiling but occasionally I can hear the position of the equipment used to make the recording. Sound is perhaps the most honest sense, more so than sight.
Truely the best sounding recording is achieved with one or two microphones, valve equipment and an audible noise floor together with a good microphone distance from the instrument, the instrument was actually designed to be listened to from a certain distance and close micing gives the incorrect impression of the instrument.
There is no other purpose in me writing on here than to share my experiences in hifi. I only share them to help others, I would be lying if I said cd's can sound as good as vinyl, because they cannot. I know, I've been there and done it.
My stereo is single source, two channel, SET from top to bottom and cost about £25,000 (well spent) and no digital format will ever sound as good.
I'll happily disagree with that...
I've got a decent analog front end (Spiral Groove SG-2/Dynavector XV-1s/TriPlanar/Nagra VPS) and a pretty good digital front end (Naim CD555/PS555) and while in an absolute sense, the analog offers up more music, all things being equal, I've heard my fair share of recordings where I preferred the mastering of the digital recording and felt it was more lifelike.
I certainly enjoy the Naim enough on a daily basis that unless the recording on LP is truly superb, I'm very happy with the CD, sometimes more.
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Frank, try these guys:
http://www.sound-smith.com/
Lee
I would prefer vinyl a lot more if I could get my Denon DL103 phono cartridge repaired at a reasonable price in a reasonable amount of time.
I wrote to the guy in the USA who is supposed to be able to do this but no response at all.
It is pretty silly to have to send a phono cartridge off to Europe and pay $300 or so for a stylus replacement.
Any reasonable suggestions?
I borrowed a friend's Denon in the process of playing with a moving coil RIAA phono preamp experiment, and although it was more refined than my Longhorn Grado, it was lacking in dynamics, bass, and just plain musicality. It looks like a great candidate for a Longhorn Stabilizer Bar, but I can't do that on someone else's unit, I need to have mine working again. It needs a new stylus assembly, as is it is broken off flush.
Regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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Jeff/TONEPUB....I couldn't respond to your PM just now as your mailbox is full.
Clear out some old, dead wood and we can put a new yuletide log inside your Inbox :wink:
John (sorry for the intrusion into the thread :oops:)
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I have owned several turntables. Kemwood marble base with SME arm, a couple of Regas with diferent arms including grace 707, as well as an Orcacle with several different arms including the best arm I had, a Alphason 1000s. Even have a turntable sitting in storage. Had many cartriges from Grado, to Dynavector Ruby, to the Iverson EK1 strain guage cartridge system. And I am forgetting quite of bit of gear here.
With the sound I get from my computer based audio playback I don't miss vinyl. I certainly don't miss the hassles of cleaning the records, de-magnatizing them, and wiping the stylist with Stylast, etc. For me whatever gains one gets sound wise from vinyl is eclipsed by the ease of use of digital.
I would record albums to a Fostex 16 track reel to reel, ie: analogue, and then mix to a Dat master. I did not feel hard done by going to digital.
More important to me than vinyl is one's room, speaker placement, and speakers. This makes a far more profound effect on audio, as long as one's digital source is good.
For me, I like the choice and digital can sound very good. I can even listen to well done mp3's I get off the internet and really enjoy them. As I am dong right now as I write. I know it sounds crazy. Maybe I am just easier to please as I age. Hey, what's that you say sonny! Speak up boy. :wink:
Rocket_digitally phased out_Ronny
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Every several months I'll have to clean the dust from the cooling fan of my hard drive based music server with a cotton swab.
But I wouldn't recommend the demagnetizing thing. :nono:
Bob
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Haven't tried to demagnatize my hard drives yet, but my kids dig up my static gun and shoot each other with it. Hasn't helped a bit. They are still the same.
Rocket_Ronny
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Over the years I have experimented with both vinyl and digital in many different forms. I will say that if both formats really depend more on the quality and capability of the system. My digital (redbook CD) system is stunning through my system as it stands right now. The same system is also used for vinyl.
For me it is simply a matter of the mood I am in. I listen to mostly CD's during the day as my time is spent at the benches and the convenience and long play of digital allows to remain at the benches without interuption. When I want to be absorbed into the music, I'll take a seat on the couch and throw on some vinyl. I live happily with both.
A good system is a good system regardless of the format being used. After all, it's all about the music.
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One thing that sometimes annoys me about digital is that it's not quite as relaxing as good vinyl. I don't know if it is residual jitter or what? It's almost a subconscious thing that's hard to put my finger on. Eventually, I'm sure, this nebulous feeling will disappear as computer playback becomes more refined. I don't get this feeling on all digital playback, all the time, but it's an annoyance that occurs enough to be a bother.
-Roy
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Over the years I have experimented with both vinyl and digital in many different forms. I will say that if both formats really depend more on the quality and capability of the system. My digital (redbook CD) system is stunning through my system as it stands right now. The same system is also used for vinyl.
For me it is simply a matter of the mood I am in. I listen to mostly CD's during the day as my time is spent at the benches and the convenience and long play of digital allows to remain at the benches without interuption. When I want to be absorbed into the music, I'll take a seat on the couch and throw on some vinyl. I live happily with both.
A good system is a good system regardless of the format being used. After all, it's all about the music.
+1 Well said Bill!
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Learning to enjoy both and look past the horizon, takes a little carriage.
But most of all, it takes the passion for music to enjoy its every form.
Live, recorded, analog or digital should make us shiver like the Arctic Breeze.
If it doesn't, do not blame the format. :wink:
Mariusz
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Again guys, ya'll make good points, but the title of the thread is Are there really folks that prefer CD's sonically?
So, far there have been very few that choose CD's for sonics over vinyl when they're side-by-side....pretty much as I expected and now confirmed. It's a given that all digital technologies are more convenient/effortless; this thread is about superior sonics/format :wink:
John (the OP)
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Again guys, ya'll make good points, but the title of the thread is Are there really folks that prefer CD's sonically?
So, far there have been very few that choose CD's for sonics over vinyl when they're side-by-side....pretty much as I expected and now confirmed. It's a given that all digital technologies are more convenient/effortless; this thread is about superior sonics/format :wink:
John (the OP)
Well, I've said that ones already - vinyl seductiveness has an effect on me personally but wether it is or it isn't the common point of view, I leave it to others.
Mariusz :wink:
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Over the years I have experimented with both vinyl and digital in many different forms. I will say that if both formats really depend more on the quality and capability of the system. My digital (redbook CD) system is stunning through my system as it stands right now. The same system is also used for vinyl.
For me it is simply a matter of the mood I am in. I listen to mostly CD's during the day as my time is spent at the benches and the convenience and long play of digital allows to remain at the benches without interuption. When I want to be absorbed into the music, I'll take a seat on the couch and throw on some vinyl. I live happily with both.
A good system is a good system regardless of the format being used. After all, it's all about the music.
IMO, RA, you haven't directly answered the OP's question - simply raved on about how fantastic your redbook-CD replay is. :lol:
The OP's Qu IMO is quite simple - do you think vinyl has better sound than CDs ... or CDs better sound than vinyl? :o However, the fact that you wrote "When I want to be absorbed into the music, I'll take a seat on the couch and throw on some vinyl" has perhaps given us your answer, subliminally! :D I take what you wrote to mean that while CD sounds great and is fine for background - in fact, preferred, as you don't have to get distracted from what you're doing every 20 minutes or so to change sides - when you want to listen to music, you choose vinyl. :thumb:
Regards,
Andy
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I don't disagree with you Tonepub, the mastering can ruin any recording. Twitch54, I have heard a quality digital front end, that's why I listen to vinyl.
I can tell what the singer had for lunch............the previous day.
I can tell whether they mean what they are singing or not aa
The reason I can say that digital will never sound as good as vinyl (anaolgue) is because of it's very nature. How can digital sound as good as vinyl? One is not complete the other is. I suppose you cannot see the artificiality in digital film or television transmission? The harshness, the unnatural definition or etched outlines.
Surely we can agree from a purely technical standpoint that if you don't start with the complete waveform you can never achieve completely natural playback.
If you have never seen a great masters painting and someone shows you a photograph of it do you get the same effect as being stood infront of it, without all the brushstokes in front of your eyes?
Perhaps it all comes down to people not being able to tell the truth from something which is false. This happens alot in other walks of life, there are so many fake things, perhaps people have given up trying. I don't understand how people can't hear the atificiality of digital it's fake boobs and cosmetic surgery sound, it's perfect nose and white teeth so to speak. Very attractive but not honest, which matters to me.
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Again guys, ya'll make good points, but the title of the thread is Are there really folks that prefer CD's sonically? John (the OP)
I do not think there is a "true" cut and dry, absolute answer to this. Too many variables thrown in to make a generalized statement. People have stated, sonically, they have heard good music on both setups. So I would say YES, REALLY, there are people who prefer CD, but there are people who prefer vinyl, live, tape, music servers, etc. Music, music, music...
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"When I want to be absorbed into the music, I'll take a seat on the couch and throw on some vinyl" has perhaps given us your answer, subliminally!
You got it :wink:
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you could also put this talk into who likes digital amps over solid state amps,for me solid state wins big time,can i pin down what i dont like about dig amps ,,no not really,but there is definitely something not right.But as far as cd goes i dont doubt there is people who dont like cd but have a hard time trying to figure out why they dont like it.
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I have heard a quality digital front end, that's why I listen to vinyl.
Browntrout, please understand I'm not putting vinyl down, hell I continue to listen and enjoy it as much today as I did when I purchased my first record 48 years ago !
I'm merely trying to point out that anyone that makes a 'carte blanche' statement that digital can't sound as good as vinyl is just flat out wrong. Again as many of us have said and KNOW, there are excellent as well as poor renderings from both camps !
Another thing I chuckle over is the number of people of late lushing over vinyl, while I love to see / hear this, I'm willing to bet that a great percentage of them have yet to hear a trully top flight analog front end !
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If digital is too serile, or shrill, then look at your player, or dac. My Metric Halo dac serves up digital with nice warmth, fantastic imaging, and great detail.
Then, go another step and run tubes in the system. The McAlister PP 150 amp I am using is very fast, dynamic, and detailed, yet very smooth, like in super smooth. I am not talking boring smooth, not at all. Smooth as in no harshness at all. It's all gone.
Another thing to add to digital is the SP Speaker line. It offers up fantastic organic wholeness and warmth to the party. The tweeter is not as fast, or open, as really good ribbon types, but it does add body and warmth. If you don't sit there comparing it to ribbons you won't care. For digital it is a good match.
There is a warmth, and organic wholeness that vinyl offers. If that is your crack then I understand your addiction. Been there man. I just know I can be very happy with digital and don't think at all about vinyl, yet I know why some do. I understand your passion.
Rocket_01010101010101010_Ronny
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The reason I can say that digital will never sound as good as vinyl (anaolgue) is because of it's very nature. How can digital sound as good as vinyl? One is not complete the other is. I suppose you cannot see the artificiality in digital film or television transmission? The harshness, the unnatural definition or etched outlines.
Surely we can agree from a purely technical standpoint that if you don't start with the complete waveform you can never achieve completely natural playback.
Only the live performance is complete. ANY recording can only be an approximation of the live event. ANY playback can only be an approximation of that event. My preference for digital is based on the silence between the notes. Based on the responses to this thread, few people appreciate this "other half" of the music. This is where vinyl can never equal digital. Yes, there ARE folks that prefer DIGITAL sonically! Get over it! Why is it the people feel the need to justify, as superior, their preference? Its just DIFFERENT.
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Rocket_01010101010101010_Ronny
:rotflmao: :notworthy: That's funny right there!!
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Would we all agree that the closer to one's ideal is everything after the source (includnig the room), the easier & more clearly one would determine the answer to the thread question?
After getting over the real & perceived problems in switching to pure-analog Trinaural I can think of no reason I'd ever choose two-channel again.
The Red Book & vinyl sources are both top notch. The vinyl advantage seems staggering, overwhelming & incontrvertible. No specific Red Book software comes to mind that contradicts the outcome.
That's my story & I'm sticking to it!
If you preferred Red Book in this system I'd be um, kinda surprised. Vinyl is more work but seems worth it.
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Only the live performance is complete.
May be, but I can assure you a live performance can completely suck too. :evil:
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The obvious answer is that vast majority of people prefer the sound of CDs. The tiny slice of the rest are audiophiles and collectors and not even all of them.
If you take out all the peripheral influences as to why people like vinyl, the medium itself is flawed. It adds noise and distortion. Preferring analog audio over digital makes sense, but preferring the vinyl medium not so much. Wouldn't we all vastly prefer the analog TAPE that is feeding the lathe? Vinyl just adds another stage of degradation. But then with analog tape you are also at the mercy of the tape deck. When my Nakamichi was working I preferred the sound of cassette over vinyl. Hiss yes, crackles no. It also had better mechanical performance than anything I owned before. But there's all the other negative issues to contend with. If everyone owned and could maintain a reel to reel tape deck, and commercial recordings were sold this way we would probably not have any use for vinyl.
What about laserdiscs? Didn't laserdiscs have analog audio? Can a more pristine analog signal be stored on laserdisc or are there other degrading factors at play?
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Has anyone heard a digital setup that sounded as realistic as the best analogue rig?
Or a solid state amp that was as transparent as a SET valve amp?
You see I haven't and that's why I say digital cannot sound as good as analogue. I can hear the same artificiality on expensive players as on cheaper ones it's just less obvious or more well hidden it is there if you listen for it.
I admit to hearing the same problem with moving coil cartridges they actually sound similar to cd to me. Perhaps I have a certain type of hearing (defect?) or have noticed something others have not and it's stuck with me so whenever listening to recorded music I always look for it, I don't know.
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Yip.
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........But I'm not sure I want to throw his name to you bunch of sharks. :P
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Has anyone heard a digital setup that sounded as realistic as the best analogue rig?
What's the best analogue rig? BTW what's the best digital front that you've heard? Was it computer based or just a CD player?
-Roy
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Sorry I was editing my post while you replied.
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Has anyone heard a digital setup that sounded as realistic as the best analogue rig?
Nope - and I think no Redbook/CD can ever be as natural as it has inadequate resolution at 16 bits and 44,100 samples per second. Another, future digital technology maybe :scratch:....but, none that I am aware of today.
...and to Konut earlier: zealous cleansing of a record is mandatory to fully hear the virtues and betterment over CD. If you hear a lot of noise between passages, you ain't heard a properly set-up vinyl format.
Frankly, I cannot listen intently to either classical...probably the most demanding/taxing music genres (in terms of naturalness as so much of it is un-amplified and ferrets out fake sounds easily) out there...on CD. Vinyl simply is reminiscent of the real event...CD can never approximate it.
Which brings another point to bear...the genre you listen to will have bearing on the format you like. For pop, CD seems more than sufficient. But for classical and piano works, only vinyl will do. Jazz is in between the extremes...vinyl or CD is sometimes a toss-up :roll:
John
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For the best analogue rig (my thoughts) I would say a Simon Yorke recordplayer and the cartridge of your choice.
As for the best digital I've heard well I like some of Ken Ishiwatas' designs for Marantz, did not get on well with a Linn CD12, heard a nice Naim setup (fully active, loads of boxes, pro install) round a friends house and have heard a few fancy players at shows recently and though that is not enough time spent listening to comment I knew I was listening to digital.
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Maybe this will appeal to both groups here, digital and vinyl. :lol:
[img]
http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48070/thumb_cd.GIF
[img]
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...and to Konut earlier: zealous cleansing of a record is mandatory to fully hear the virtues and betterment over CD. If you hear a lot of noise between passages, you ain't heard a properly set-up vinyl format.
But for classical and piano works, only vinyl will do. Jazz is in between the extremes...vinyl or CD is sometimes a toss-up :roll:
John
The best vinyl rig cannot top, the easily attainable, 95db+ s/n ratio of digital. Crank the system up to realistic levels on full symphonic works and the lack of noise is readily apparent.
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I've been following this string for awhile and am surprised that no one has turned the question on it's head (at least for the purpose of discussion). TheChairGuy has nudged everyone back to the original query - "do folks out there actually prefer CD in all instances over vinyl gear?" So let me ask this: "Do folks out there actually prefer vinyl in all instances over CD?" I'm not trying to hijack the subject. But when you ask the question it seems to have been clearly answered in the string: "Not so much". Good CD is better than lousy vinyl. The rest is just a matter of degree - how much turntable malfunctioning/cartridge mistracking/dirty grooves/peaky HF response/lousing pressing/poor mastering, etc. does it take to make vinyl unacceptable for you? And, conversely, how much jitter/harshness/thinness/2 dimensionality/etc. etc. does it take to make CD unlistenable for you?
There has been a nearly religious aspect to the analog vs. digital debate since digitization reared it's ugly head. In the beginning you had to be deaf or really indifferent to think digital was much good compared to analog. Now, after decades of steady improvement, you have to be indifferent or mighty stubborn to think that a good CD based system isn't at least the equivalent of vinyl and a computer based system even better than that (see Steve Nugent, et al in this forum). The fervor comes in, it seems to me, when the proposition becomes that analog is inherently (and obviously) a superior storage medium and that won't ever change. It gets touchy when the acolytes say (or imply) that anyone who doesn't hear/doesn't accept/doesn't believe this is, well, suspect to say the least.
It sort of reminds me of the recurring one-way conflict between we who live in Southern California and our cousins up north. Northern California types tend to think that they are superior in every way and that their culture is so obviously better, their cities so much more refined and even their (somewhat cooler) climate so much healthier that they don't know why anyone would live down here. What really infuriates them is when we refuse to debate any of this. San Francisco is obviously one of the world's great cities, everyone I know dearly loves the drive up Hwy 1 to Big Sur, the Monterey Aquarium is better than Long Beach, etc. etc. Now excuse me while I grab my board. Surf's up in Huntington Beach. As the gorgeous but hapless Miss USA runner up said recently, "No offense to anyone out there".
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Interesting reply CSI, I fully understand your rationale and that's why I continue to be in the camp that says when done right BOTH are excellent !
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Konut the noise floor on a good turntable is set by the recording. I have silence between passages if there was indeed silence. Silence very rarely exists, certainly in a hall with an audience it would be odd. If you mean they have cut the signal then this can be done on records as well but then you have the sound of the recording gear coming back in just before the music returns, I'd rather have continous recording between passages personally as it helps with continuity and ambience.
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Feel better now, CSI? :wink:
So-so vinyl sounds better than so-called excellent CD as no matter, 16 bits and 44,100 samples per second is simply not enough to approximate the event as vinyl does.
Period.
That's not to say some future hi-res digital format may exceed vinyl in the area of effortless naturalness...but, it ain't any of those available today. Spending large wads of cash on CD/Redbook is not sensible to me...it's a 2nd class format, fit primarily for convenience and developed when a basic calculator cost $100.00. The technology did not exist for better back then.
DVD-A is a nice peck up the chain...but, still not enough (in my opinion)
Spend your finite dollars any way you wish...whatever makes you happy. But, don't delude yourself that it sounds as good as a quality vinyl system with demanding music genre's like classical. It doesn't - and likely, cannot 8)
For me and for an increasing amount of others...the pain of vinyl upkeep and conditioning is worth the bother to enjoy superior playback. However, I never thought that redbook playback would leap forward as far as it has the past 4-5 years...and at such amazingly low price points. So, I temper my absolutism just slightly as the advance the past 5 years has been excellent :thumb:
btw, I live in Marin Co, 6 miles across I can see San Francisco. Ain't nothing like it in SOCAL....and I have traveled widely thru the state. My biz partner and rest of my company mates are in Redondo Beach...I choose to live here and happily do. I'm from NY, so it's not like family keeps me here (or, for god sake, cheap housing prices :()
John
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The best vinyl rig cannot top, the easily attainable, 95db+ s/n ratio of digital. Crank the system up to realistic levels on full symphonic works and the lack of noise is readily apparent.
What good is 96db s/n if the violins or triangles or oboe's sound false?
50db from a good vinyl front end is sufficient (if the records are cleansed) for many...and the recording sounds like a real event as one would hear it live :violin:
Among formats today, naturalness is the exclusive domain of vinyl. Especially with classical....it's first and foremost among formats in my opinion and that of increasing amounts of others.
John
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Thanks John. Yea, I do feel better. I really had no idea you lived in Marin when I wrote my reply. Whoops. Anyway, I appreciate your devotion, good ears, and good natured willingness to debate. And thanks for starting a fascinating thread.
See you in church.
Bill (CSI)
P.S. No offense to your partner but who in their right mind wouldn't prefer Marin to Redondo?
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You are welcome...and anybody is welcome here at the Vinyl Circle. The only thing not tolerated is if one portrays another's passion as stupid/insane/dumb, etc. That's just not right (whoever it comes from and with whatever slant it has) and those posts are tossed.
The rest is just good-natured fun & debate between fellow audiophools :wink:
My biz partner grew up in Redondo...and has family still mostly there. I may have to move down there to run the 'shop' one day (as he is older than I), but it likely won't be entirely happily. I love traveling there about 4 months a year - mostly to get warm and out of the persistant winter rains here then :thumb:
My little towns view of SF:
(http://www.ci.tiburon.ca.us/visitors/photo%20gallery/images/tiburon_gallery_09.jpg)
John
Thanks John. Yea, I do feel better. I really had no idea you lived in Marin when I wrote my reply. Whoops. Anyway, I appreciate your devotion, good ears, and good natured willingness to debate. And thanks for starting a fascinating thread.
See you in church.
Bill (CSI)
P.S. No offense to your partner but who in their right mind wouldn't prefer Marin to Redondo?
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Thanks for the great picture. Didn't mean to trash Redondo (it is entirely possible I got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning). I was born in Long Beach and only lived in two other places, Hawaii for two years (loved it) and Florida for four (didn't). So roots is roots. I'm up your way at least twice a year - to hang with old friends in San Jose, attend races at Infineon (nee Sears Point), kick around Napa and visit The City (no one ever calls LA The City). Don't really know what I would do without my periodic Bay Area fix.
Best regards,
Bill
PS. When I ask my wife where she would move to when we win that $20M lottery she always says Sausalito.
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Has anyone heard a digital setup that sounded as realistic as the best analogue rig?
Nope - and I think no Redbook/CD can ever be as natural as it has inadequate resolution at 16 bits and 44,100 samples per second. Another, future digital technology maybe :scratch:....but, none that I am aware of today.
...and to Konut earlier: zealous cleansing of a record is mandatory to fully hear the virtues and betterment over CD. If you hear a lot of noise between passages, you ain't heard a properly set-up vinyl format.
Frankly, I cannot listen intently to either classical...probably the most demanding/taxing music genres (in terms of naturalness as so much of it is un-amplified and ferrets out fake sounds easily) out there...on CD. Vinyl simply is reminiscent of the real event...CD can never approximate it.
Which brings another point to bear...the genre you listen to will have bearing on the format you like. For pop, CD seems more than sufficient. But for classical and piano works, only vinyl will do. Jazz is in between the extremes...vinyl or CD is sometimes a toss-up :roll:
John
According to this A/B study resolution is not the critical factor in digital reproduction. The quality of the cd is more dependent on how well it was mixed and produced. Therefore it would follow that before you can judge digital reproduction you have to be sure that the production is SOTA and with no compromises for the mass market.
"Despite the test conclusion being that 24-bit/96kHz resolution itself offers no audible benefit, the authors wrote that "virtually all of the SACD and DVD-A recordings sounded better than most CDs - sometimes much better." Their reasoning behind this was that the improved sonics were coming not from increased resolution but from better mixing and production by the audiophile labels producing SACDs and DVD-As. "Engineers and producers are being given the freedom to produce recordings that sound as good as they can make them, without having to compress or equalize the signal to suit lesser systems and casual listening conditions. These recordings seem to have been made with great care and manifest affection by engineers trying to please themselves and their peers."
http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1254/does-highres-audio-really-sound-better
-Roy
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"Despite the test conclusion being that 24-bit/96kHz resolution itself offers no audible benefit, the authors wrote that "virtually all of the SACD and DVD-A recordings sounded better than most CDs - sometimes much better." Their reasoning behind this was that the improved sonics were coming not from increased resolution but from better mixing and production by the audiophile labels producing SACDs and DVD-As. "Engineers and producers are being given the freedom to produce recordings that sound as good as they can make them, without having to compress or equalize the signal to suit lesser systems and casual listening conditions. These recordings seem to have been made with great care and manifest affection by engineers trying to please themselves and their peers."
http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1254/does-highres-audio-really-sound-better
i have heard three audiophile digital recordings, and compared them to their winyl counterparts - two patricia barbour albums, and ry cooder's buena vista social club. yes, the cd's sound wery wery good. (one pat barbour cd was burned to a black cdr disc, it sounded better than the original.) but in all three cases, the winyl sounded better...
doug s.
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Did you listen to the CDs on a CD player or were they losslessly ripped to a hard drive and played back through a modded SB, Modwright Transporter or perhaps one of Empirical Audio's devices? The reason I ask is because these devices are reputed to be more SOTA than most CD players thereby more suited to test the potential of digital playback. The state of the art in digital playback is not static, in fact it probably has a long way to go before it's fully developed.
-Roy
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....it probably has a long way to go before it's fully developed.
The vinyl technology has 100+ years behind it.
The digital tech has, in comparison, roughly 30 years.
I'm excited for the future.
Bob
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....it probably has a long way to go before it's fully developed.
The vinyl technology has 100+ years behind it.
The digital tech has, in comparison, roughly 30 years.
I'm excited for the future.
Bob
Me, too. At 46, jumping up and flipping sides every 20 minutes is okay. But, if (okay, WHEN :wink: I'm 70), I'm sure my enthusiasm for doing so will be muted.
Long live us and the future of digital...but the present iterations of them are 2nd class formats to vinyl :)
John
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Did you listen to the CDs on a CD player or were they losslessly ripped to a hard drive and played back through a modded SB, Modwright Transporter or perhaps one of Empirical Audio's devices? The reason I ask is because these devices are reputed to be more SOTA than most CD players thereby more suited to test the potential of digital playback. The state of the art in digital playback is not static, in fact it probably has a long way to go before it's fully developed.
-Roy
roy i am guessing you are asking me; i listened on a cdp used as transport, hooked up to a dac. but, i have a-b'd this dac w/warious transports, some dirt-cheap, others ~$1500, against digital rigs up to $8k, including transporters, ea-modded northstar 192 dac, ea-sb3 with pace-car, bolder modified sb2, northstar transport fitted with pace-car. the sound of my dac (modded art di/o) was the equal of everything it's been up against. there may have been tiny differences, but but nothing was better or worse than the others - yust small differences... my opinion regarding the sota of digital playback is that it's fully max'd out, at least as far as 16 bit/44.1khz goes. of course, i would love to be proven wrong! :thumb:
doug s.
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''' my opinion regarding the sota of digital playback is that it's fully max'd out, at least as far as 16 bit/44.1khz goes.'''
This is my understanding too.
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''' my opinion regarding the sota of digital playback is that it's fully max'd out, at least as far as 16 bit/44.1khz goes.'''
This is my understanding too.
It's only your opinion. Obviously many disagree with you. I have a vinyl setup but I try to keep an open mind. I guess I haven't drunk the Kool-Aide yet. :P
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It's only your opinion. Obviously many disagree with you. I have a vinyl setup but I try to keep an open mind. I guess I haven't drunk the Kool-Aide yet. :P
Actually RajaRoy...not so many disagree. Those that do generally cite convenience as the factor for their preference. But, the title of this topic is about preferring CD's sonically. Of that, there are few that have compared vinyl to CD that have.
I doubt anybody wants to prefer vinyl...as it is such a pain to hassle with. It nonetheless is better...and 16/44.1 has come a long way and at friendly prices today, but remains a 2nd class source for (current) high fidelity honors.
Go drink the Kool-Aid that is vinyl....it is by no means perfect and certainly not convenient; but solely based on sonics, it doesn't have a rival that I am aware of in any digital technology or player/distributor/server :wink:
As a layman and non-industry associate, I have no vested interest in boasting any one format better than another....however, vinyl simply is :smoke: (the smoking emoticon was expressly for you - ha)
Dangit, what are you doing up so early?
John
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''' my opinion regarding the sota of digital playback is that it's fully max'd out, at least as far as 16 bit/44.1khz goes.'''
This is my understanding too.
It's only your opinion. Obviously many disagree with you. I have a vinyl setup but I try to keep an open mind. I guess I haven't drunk the Kool-Aide yet. :P
when my ~10 year old modded $150 dac can go toe-to-toe w/the latest and greatest digital gear - $8k of it - on an extremely hi-rez system, and when everyone in the room hears no meaningful differences - well, i feel comfortable w/my statement. you haven't drunk the kool-aide yet?!? it's you, imo, that needs to stop drinking the kool-aide being pushed by the digital equipment mfr's! :lol:
as i said before, i'd love to be proven wrong - i'd love for there to be a meaningful improvement awailable for 16/44.1 sound. if it got as good as winyl, well, i'd be happy as a pig-n-poop! :lol: i ain't holding my breath, tho. now, i admit it could happen - it was not until the late 90's that i thought redbook was anything more than a tolerable playback medium, and i believed that would never change. to my delight it has changed, and i actually enjoy it now. but ten years have passed now, and i haven't heard any improvements...
so, tell me again, how i am not keeping an open mind? 8)
doug s.
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but ten years have passed now, and i haven't heard any improvements...
so, tell me again, how i am not keeping an open mind? doug s.
Doug, In many ways I tend to agree. When you factor in some of the less than stellar CD production as of late ( another benifit to the resurgance of vinyl)
But again...... this debate can rage on forever, subjective that it is. While both my analog and digital front ends are by no means of the highest eschelon, I can and do demonstrate 'sonic superiortiy' with BOTH formats ! .............and to borrow "Chairguys" phrase...........'period' !!!
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''' my opinion regarding the sota of digital playback is that it's fully max'd out, at least as far as 16 bit/44.1khz goes.'''
This is my understanding too.
It's only your opinion. Obviously many disagree with you. I have a vinyl setup but I try to keep an open mind. I guess I haven't drunk the Kool-Aide yet. :P
when my ~10 year old modded $150 dac can go toe-to-toe w/the latest and greatest digital gear - $8k of it - on an extremely hi-rez system, and when everyone in the room hears no meaningful differences - well, i feel comfortable w/my statement. you haven't drunk the kool-aide yet?!? it's you, imo, that needs to stop drinking the kool-aide being pushed by the digital equipment mfr's! :lol:
as i said before, i'd love to be proven wrong - i'd love for there to be a meaningful improvement awailable for 16/44.1 sound. if it got as good as winyl, well, i'd be happy as a pig-n-poop! :lol: i ain't holding my breath, tho. now, i admit it could happen - it was not until the late 90's that i thought redbook was anything more than a tolerable playback medium, and i believed that would never change. to my delight it has changed, and i actually enjoy it now. but ten years have passed now, and i haven't heard any improvements...
so, tell me again, how i am not keeping an open mind? 8)
doug s.
Can you name the 8k of digital gear you were using for comparison? Was it just a CD player or the latest computer based digital gear?
BTW, I've always preferred lemon-aide to kool-aide. :D
-Roy
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as i said before, i'd love to be proven wrong - i'd love for there to be a meaningful improvement awailable for 16/44.1 sound. if it got as good as winyl, well, i'd be happy as a pig-n-poop! :lol: i ain't holding my breath, tho. now, i admit it could happen - it was not until the late 90's that i thought redbook was anything more than a tolerable playback medium, and i believed that would never change. to my delight it has changed, and i actually enjoy it now. but ten years have passed now, and i haven't heard any improvements...
so, tell me again, how i am not keeping an open mind? 8)
doug s.
Frankly, I've heard rather enormous strides forward for CD the past 5 years. Both in an absolute way of improvement and a bettering of price points for passably good performance. It's FAR better than I ever thought it could get, and at superbly low price points, the past ~ 5 years.
As much as it has risen in standards - it still falls short of vinyl, ultimately (whether computer hard drive, or spinning disc uni-player, universal player of standalone DAC....with all the green pen marks, disc dampers and ebony thingamabob's under the player :))
It's still 2nd rate next to vinyl.....but, it's NOT an un-enjoyable format now to listen to (the past 5 years - in my opinion, of course)
If you listen mostly to Pop and Rock...it might be all you need. But when you hear un-amplified instruments (strings, woodwinds, tympani, piano, brass, triangles and the like) in classical and some other forms of music....the naturalness of how this all sounds makes all the digital technologies rather a painful experience for me.
I listen to it all - but, when I listen to classical CD's (which, you'd think, among the more careful of mastered CD's, no? :roll:) it completely stinks to listen to. I'm nearly done listening to classical on CD...it sounds utterly false. DVD-A is a nice step forward in that regards...but vinyl simply rules 8)
Seriously, those of you that keep throwing good money in playback for what is a inherent shortage of resolution with CD...make your next ~$1500 investment in vinyl and you may be happier than you ever thought.
John
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I just re-read my posting back 3.5 years ago when, after ~3 of my most miserable music listening years (spent entirely with CD after I ditched my old record player, I again found vinyl.
I came back with such gusto that I then took over Facilitating duties of this circle from Josh K. (who had strayed from vinyl as he was or had just moved to new digs, I think :scratch:). The poor fella' is still in the empty digital wilderness trying to make it home again :icon_lol:
I already had a full function preamp with phono about...but I was able to step back into vinyl for only US$600-odd by buying a $50 JVC direct drive from ebay, $200 in platform, and platters mats, a $100 cartridge, and the rest for a (used) Nitty Gritty cleaner and chemicals. Lots left over for records.
It might be a helpful ditty for old dogs looking to return to the fold or newbies anxiety-prone to try:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22636.0
John
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Frankly, I've heard rather enormous strides forward for CD the past 5 years. Both in an absolute way of improvement and a bettering of price points for passably good performance. It's FAR better than I ever thought it could get, and at superbly low price points, the past ~ 5 years.
As much as it has risen in standards - it still falls short of vinyl, ultimately (whether computer hard drive, or spinning disc uni-player, universal player of standalone DAC....with all the green pen marks, disc dampers and ebony thingamabob's under the player :))
It's still 2nd rate next to vinyl.....but, it's NOT an un-enjoyable format now to listen to (the past 5 years - in my opinion, of course)
If you listen mostly to Pop and Rock...it might be all you need. But when you hear un-amplified instruments (strings, woodwinds, tympani, piano, brass, triangles and the like) in classical and some other forms of music....the naturalness of how this all sounds makes all the digital technologies rather a painful experience for me.
I listen to it all - but, when I listen to classical CD's (which, you'd think, among the more careful of mastered CD's, no? :roll:) it completely stinks to listen to. I'm nearly done listening to classical on CD...it sounds utterly false. DVD-A is a nice step forward in that regards...but vinyl simply rules 8)
Seriously, those of you that keep throwing good money in playback for what is a inherent shortage of resolution with CD...make your next ~$1500 investment in vinyl and you will be undoubtedly happier for having done so.
John
Aah but John ... you make the ~$1,500 investment in a vinyl front-end ... and then you have to buy the vinyl! It's fine for us who've been buying LPs for decades but I would hate to be committing to vinyl for the first time, now! :D
On my #1 system - ie. the one where I sit down to listen (rather than having nice music on while I'm doing something else), it's vinyl 95% of the time! :thumb: However, I'm just starting a project to acquire a computer disk playback system so I can rip my 1,500 LPs to 24bit/96Khz FLAC files. I figure this is going to take a very long time, so I'd better start now ... as when I finish, I suspect my eyesight and hand-steadiness will no longer be sufficient for aligning cartridges! :lol:
Regards,
Andy
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If i got back into vinyl after so many years i bet i'd have to drop at least 2 k to get something i'd be happy with,not gonna happen.
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....it probably has a long way to go before it's fully developed.
The vinyl technology has 100+ years behind it.
The digital tech has, in comparison, roughly 30 years.
I'm excited for the future.
Bob
I'll agree with that. :thumb: :green:
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Can you name the 8k of digital gear you were using for comparison? Was it just a CD player or the latest computer based digital gear?
BTW, I've always preferred lemon-aide to kool-aide. :D
-Roy
see my prior post, a few messages up. :wink:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=66985.msg622265#msg622265
one thing to ad - in my system, i have separate isolation transformers which i use, one each for my dac and transport; this makes it sound better in my system - higher resolution & lower noise-floor. i didn't have the isolation transformers in my a-b comparisons...
doug s.
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one thing to ad - in my system, i have separate isolation transformers which i use, one each for my dac and transport; this makes it sound better in my system - higher resolution & lower noise-floor. i didn't have the isolation transformers in my a-b comparisons...
doug s.
Totally Doug....a HUGE difference an isolation transformer made ahead of my CD/DVD player. It was not beneficial anywhere else (it mucked more up than helped in the end) anywhere but in front of the CD/DVD.
The quality of AC seems particularly important to digital gear and/or it acts as a 'gate' to not allow digital hash back into the other components shared pool of AC. Bottom line - a rather cheap isolation transformer (mine was like $50) can notably improve digital playback.
But, CD is still 2nd rate to vinyl, nonetheless :wink:
John
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This argument has been going on for years, and probably will go for years, and that is good!
I was a hard-core vinyl fan, up until I got myself a home-built Curcio CD12V DAC. Built with some very upgraded parts somewhere in Slovakia, or near there, toroidal transformers etc, housed in a very ugly industrial enclosure. It absolutely made a huge difference, and I enjoy regular CDs very much (provided they are well recorded/produced, of course). I have cringed listening to some very expensive digital gear, but I remain very relaxed and composed listening to Curcio :-) As to supposedly superior analog spatial presentation - Curcio is amazingly three-dimensional. Also, recently I followed an advice, posted in the beginning of this thread, to check out HDtracks. I burned their free test tracks on a blank. And, considering that they are only in 44K after I burned them using MediaMonkey, they sound VERY good. My vinyl rig is not shabby at all, but inherent LP problems do manifest themselves, no matter what you do. Digital has it's own problems, but it's getting better and better. And so, being after not the format but good sound, I say - I welcome digital, if it fulfills it's promise. As to original title of this thread - yes, I have a couple of CDs which blow away my vinyl set-up, no question. Namely - Buddy Guy's acoustical venture, "Blues Singer". I have a promo copy, actually it says "Advance copy" on jacket, which is a simple paper sleeve, like Japanese mini-LP, and bears a completely different artwork. On the other hand, some albums do sound better than their CD cousins. Case in point: I have a GRP (Dave Gruzin's productions) super-duper gold-shmold CD of "Glen Miller Orchestra In The Digital Mood". Fairly recent versions of old favorites, in digital form. CD plainly sucks, with sound being overly warm, in a bad way, with nasty nagging midrange, very difficult to listen to. Even my non-audiophile roommate commented on that. LP version, with exactly the same artwork, same track list (but with one less track), is amzingly better - airy, open, dynamic etc. So go and know!
Enjoy the music, you all!
Equipment: Oracle Premiere Mk IV, upgraded version with heavy brass parts, Turbo PS; arm - AdAnalog MG-1; cartridges: Madrigal Carnegie I and Koetsu Onyx Gold; step-up: Hagerman TX-103 copper; phono stage: Hagerman Trumpet or MFA Lumi; line stage: MFA Lumi, upgraded caps; transport: Pioneer HHB-800 pro-recorder, used as transport (Pioneer Stable Platter); DAC: Curcio CD12V; amps: two Classe DR-9; speakers: Infinity RS4.5, running bi-amp thru their moded passive Xovers.
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Also, recently I followed an advice, posted in the beginning of this thread, to check out HDtracks. I burned their free test tracks on a blank. And, considering that they are only in 44K after I burned them using MediaMonkey, they sound VERY good.
I've been buying HDTracks and any other available hi-res downloads like an addict, and it's deliciious stuff. Hope you get to play them in their native resolution at some point instead of the 44K burned copy.
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Can you name the 8k of digital gear you were using for comparison? Was it just a CD player or the latest computer based digital gear?
BTW, I've always preferred lemon-aide to kool-aide. :D
-Roy
see my prior post, a few messages up. :wink:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=66985.msg622265#msg622265
one thing to ad - in my system, i have separate isolation transformers which i use, one each for my dac and transport; this makes it sound better in my system - higher resolution & lower noise-floor. i didn't have the isolation transformers in my a-b comparisons...
doug s.
Maybe battery power is the way to go. :) That would eliminate the need for the complications and noise of AC power supplies and reduce the noise floor to below audibility. All turntables have some audible background noise. :wink:
-Roy
p.s. Could it be that clean power is more important than resolution? Like the study I linked above which came to the conclusion that the vast majority of people can't distinguish between high and low resolution digital.
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Adding to my initial post....
As I aggressively add to my small vinyl collection I am finding what others have already said: vinyl doesn't always sound better than the CD. So in some cases the CD does sound better than the vinyl of the same album.
Therefore in general terms, it might be fair to say that CD does better vinyl in consistency of medium. I started a thread on the number of copies of a vinyl LP everyone goes through to find a good version, as I experienced a few dud copies. Furthermore, I am also learning through reading that sometimes the mix may differ for the individual formats. I ould really appreciate having more background on an album recording and mastering used. or some reason I don't go out and buy another CD if I find its a bad recording, knowing the the media is more consistent by the nature of the technology.
As an example: I was excited to listen to a newly acquired copy of The Hurting, by Tears for Fears, original US release, on vinyl. Rated Near Mint, and I agree that it had no noticeable damage and very little play - by visual inspection perfect. I washed/rinsed the vinyl twice and played it. Fairly recently I have been listening to the Redbook rip of this Album on my digital server DAC and was impressed by the music and the recording. That spurred me to find a vinyl copy to hear uncompromised sonics of vinyl.
Well, I was a little disappointed. Maybe a bad pressing or just not a good transfer. It was not as dynamic and had a flatter soundstage than the digital version in my system. I toggled back and forth between the two - with slight volume adjustment. The digital was superior. My digital front end is decent and on par with my vinyl (recently tallied up my cost and they are within 5% of each other). Following that album I listening to a new/sealed Portishead-Portishead vinyl album and that sounded amazing. Though I didn't do a back-to-back with the digital, I would say that the vinyl was superior to the digital.
My point is. Vinyl may have the capability to have the superior sonics, but acquiring a copy of the vinyl recording may be a challenge and costly. I wouldn't want to do this for all of my favorites. Then of course there is setting up the vinyl rig to extract those superior sonics-a different topic. Sometimes CD sonics win when not in a vacuum. Maybe a thread tracking peoples findings of albums on CDs which sound better than the vinyl see if there is a general agreement from various listeners...... sure, Ed easy to do there are only 30 million albums out there. :lol:
Cheers,
Ed
p.s. I am going to buy another copy of The Hurting, just because I am optimistic. : ))
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Maybe a thread tracking peoples findings of albums on CDs which sound better than the vinyl see if there is a general agreement from various listeners...... sure, Ed easy to do there are only 30 million albums out there. :lol:
Cheers,
Ed
That would be a good idea and begin to add some substance to the matter.
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rajacat , I don't consider the apparent consensus expressed in the thread you linked to a valid conclusion or a representative sampling of audiophiles who have heard higher resolution media under optimal conditions. I can jump as high as Michael Jordan in a room with an 8foot ceiling,which is another way of saying that if you set the bar too low by listening to 24/96 media in a system with inadequate resolution your test is flawed and your conclusions about the media will be wrong. We constantly pussy foot around the elephant in the room here, which is the fact that while we may all be playing the same game some are playing in the sandlot,some in the minors and a few in the majors. Everyone here does not have equal levels of resolution in their system,which leads directly to differing interpretations of what is heard when something is auditioned. Obviously while I can point out the problem I can see no solution for it. We have to be very careful about what is asserted to be a fact as witnessed by someone within this context. You can say this is what I heard in my system but you can't go on to generalize on the basis of this specific instance.
Scotty
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My digital front end is decent and on par with my vinyl (recently tallied up my cost and they are within 5% of each other).
Cheers,
Ed
I would've thought a digital front end that was the same cost as your vinyl front-end (TT + arm + cartridge + phonostage) would be, relatively speaking, a much more "top-end" player than what the vinyl rig is. :o
I personally would think, say, a $5K CDP (incl. DAC) would equate to a $15K vinyl front-end in terms of SQ?
Regards,
Andy
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My digital front end is decent and on par with my vinyl (recently tallied up my cost and they are within 5% of each other).
Cheers,
Ed
I would've thought a digital front end that was the same cost as your vinyl front-end (TT + arm + cartridge + phonostage) would be, relatively speaking, a much more "top-end" player than what the vinyl rig is. :o
I personally would think, say, a $5K CDP (incl. DAC) would equate to a $15K vinyl front-end in terms of SQ?
Regards,
Andy
AndyR,
Interesting to hear your opinion. I was always curious about the performance relative to cost of dig v analog systems.
I am interpreting what you wrote above as: A digital front end offers more value per dollar than an analog front end.
From my own systems and a few retail auditions and group meetups I agree that the vinyl rigs that sound great tend to be quite expensive ($7k and more). BTW, I am nowhere near a $15k vinyl rig! nor desire to be. I am only at $2600 digital vs $2500 analog. (DIGITAL= DAC + HDD + cables, ANALOG= TT + cart+ pre + accessories + manual cleaner)
cheers, ed
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AndyR,
I am interpreting what you wrote above as: A digital front end offers more value per dollar than an analog front end.
cheers, ed
Hi Ed,
Yes, I guess that's a good interpretation. However, as a dyed-in-the-wool vinylie, I suspect that the sound from a $20K vinyl rig would be more enjoyable than its CDP "equivalent" (whether that's $5k or $10K). :o
Regards,
Andy
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For myself,I wouldn't take that bet. There is no shortage of mediocre $5000 digital replay systems. With 15 grand to play with I could probably come up with a vinyl system that would only loose to digital if the recording on the vinyl was not good enough.
Scotty
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AndyR,
I am interpreting what you wrote above as: A digital front end offers more value per dollar than an analog front end.
cheers, ed
Hi Ed,
Yes, I guess that's a good interpretation. However, as a dyed-in-the-wool vinylie, I suspect that the sound from a $20K vinyl rig would be more enjoyable than its CDP "equivalent" (whether thant's $5k or $10K). :o
Regards,
Andy
I would tend to agree with you from a purely sonic perspective. I can't wait to hear my first $20k vinyl rig. "Money is no object" is not an area I play in though.
-ed
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I can't wait to hear my first $20k vinyl rig. "Money is no object" is not an area I play in though.
-ed
I don't consider a $20K vinyl rig (seeing as it has to include TT (and PS, in the case of my LP12), arm, cart and phono-stage) is "money-is- no-object". $50K and above is! :thumb: How much is the Continuum - and that's without cart or phono-stage!!?? :D
Regards,
Andy
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My vote for a cost no object setup would the the Walker Audio Proscenium Gold, somewhere near $85K.Then I have to come up with custom phonostage and some type of cartridge. I would be very interested the SoundSmith strain gauge cartridge setup.
Scotty
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My vote for a cost no object setup would the the Walker Audio Proscenium Gold, somewhere near $85K.Then I have to come up with custom phonostage and some type of cartridge. I would be very interested the SoundSmith strain gauge cartridge setup.
Scotty
If I had that kind of dow to throw around, I'd invite real musicians to play in my house :-) That would be a good playback system!
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Personally, I would like to own Teres Model 265 with Verus motor option, Tri-Planar tone arm ...... or I would keep my Moarch UP4 and Strain Gauge SG-400 package. I am sucker for wood qualities and liquidity so Teres with direct drive system and Schroder DPS/ SG cart system would really make me happy. On digital side - AMR-CD77 is my cup of tea but Isabella preamp with build-in Isabellina DAC and Consonance Droplet CDP 5.0 as transport, works just fine and stopped my cravings for more as far as digital reproduction is concern.
(http://www.teresaudio.com/images/schroder_dps_lg.jpg)(http://www.teresaudio.com/images/t-265-800.jpg)(http://www.teresaudio.com/images/Verus1-sm.jpg)(http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/images/soundsmith_007.jpg)(http://www.sound-smith.com/pgallery/soundsmith_033.jpg)(http://www.stereotimes.com/images/AMR_CD772_290906.jpg)(http://6moons.com/audioreviews/redwine10/2_3.jpg)(http://www.redwineaudio.com/images/isabella.jpg)(http://6moons.com/audioreviews/droplet/hero.jpg)
Mariusz :thumb:
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I would've thought a digital front end that was the same cost as your vinyl front-end (TT + arm + cartridge + phonostage) would be, relatively speaking, a much more "top-end" player than what the vinyl rig is. :o
I personally would think, say, a $5K CDP (incl. DAC) would equate to a $15K vinyl front-end in terms of SQ?
Regards,
Andy
i'd have to say it is the other way around. in fact, i would wager that, if the software is equivalent, a $5k analog front end would sound at least as good or better than any 16bit/44.1khz digital front end extant, at any price...
ymmv,
doug s.
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Nope, not even close...
How many "at any price" cd players have you heard?
It's really pretty eye opening.
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With 15 grand to play with I could probably come up with a vinyl system that would only loose to digital if the recording on the vinyl was not good enough.
<Standing up applauding> :thumb: This is a very good point. This could also go in vinyl direction with a poorly recorded or transferred copy to digital. It is all dependent on the path taken to produce what we finally play/hear. To compare source A to source B without knowing how they came about IMO is not valid as you can always find exceptions in either direction.
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This seems like a good time to bring up the ($$$$$) laser turntable.
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Nope, not even close...
How many "at any price" cd players have you heard?
It's really pretty eye opening.
only a couple, i admit. and yes, it was eye-opening, for sure. amazing sound wasn't why, tho... 8)
ymmv,
doug s.
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This is quite good. Can I ask if at a certain performance level we start listening to the medium, where its' character becomes clearly audible and variable then we exceed that level of performance and the medium becomes almost irrelevant because we hear the failings in the recording equipment as more obvious than the failings in the playback system, which sounds better cd or vinyl?
I have this with vinyl but I've never heard this with cd. I won't claim to have heard highend cd players for the last few years (gave up looking) so is this possible? Is it possible for cd to become transparent like vinyl? I've always been conscious of the cd when listening.
I realise I'm not being very clear but I hope you get what I mean?
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This doesn't have to be a technical discussion. Just record a good, high quality record on to a CD. Listen to the CD recording and see if anything is missing. Has anybody tried this?
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Yes I did this several times and sent out copies so people could hear a phonostage I had modified. You can hear the digital effect upon the analogue, it sounds half way between a record and a cd. It's more like something has been added.
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Blair,the only problem I can see with this idea is the quality of ADC available to the man on the street may be inadequate to reveal the kind of differences you are interested in.
Michael Fremer has made digital copies of recordings of the same piece played back with different phono cartridges and considers his resulting recordings good enough that he can use
them as a aural reference to characterize to performance of the cartridges after he no longer has them available to refer to. At least for Mr. Fremer the question of transparency and faithfulness to the source has been answered. I won't dwell on the logical inconsistencies his actions appear to embody.
Scotty
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You can hear the digital effect upon the analogue, it sounds half way between a record and a cd. It's more like something has been added.
...I've heard a couple too...but, to me, it sounded like something was taken away and or altered (slightly) adversely at 16/44.1.
24/96, or 24/96 with MLP (ie, DVD-A) might prove a better/closer comparison, tho :roll:
John
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XRCD
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This doesn't have to be a technical discussion. Just record a good, high quality record on to a CD. Listen to the CD recording and see if anything is missing. Has anybody tried this?
I've transferred a few LP recordings to cd. I wouldn't say they were high quality, from mid-fi equipment. To me the transfers sound just like it did on the TT with the clicks & pops, nothing spectacular about listening to vinyl. For this reason I abandoned vinyl for the cd some 20 years ago.
Now I never heard vinyl played on a high quality TT with cartridge. If I had perhaps I would not have abandoned vinyl. However if the same amount of money invested into a TT with cartridge necessary to hear the merits of vinyl over cd is invested into dedicated cd player. Would the cd not still be just as good or superior to vinyl?
The stereo system I have now with cd,dvd digital playback is vastly superior to the vinyl tube stereo I listened to in my teens. Perhaps it could be even better if I invest in a quality TT. But in my mind vinyl is obsolete and I would have to hear someones hi quality vinyl rig to be convinced otherwise.
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I agree that vinyl is obsolete. More importantly, most music by living musicians/composers is available only on CD. My personal point of view: Why would anyone waste their time listening to yet another only slightly different performance of their grandparents' music? Are you afraid to listen to new music because you might actually be required to form an opinion all on your own, independent of the opinions of others?
A significant problem with CD playback is that almost all currently new players use from a very limited number of available DAC chips, the vast majority of which are called 1-bit and Sigma/Delta. Comparisons among these players is about power supplies, filters (digital and/or analog), operating conveniences, etc., not a comparison of D to A function. Some small manufacturers do go back to earlier chips, NOS, that use chips of an earlier type, dropped by most manufacturers because of, what else, price considerations. A major difference is available from www.msbtech.com. I will not summarize here that which you can read in it's entirety on their website. I had aquired one of their older products a few years ago, a Gold Link DAC. Back then, they were still using Burr Brown Chips. To test the unit, I used the digital output from a Meridian 588 CD player. Long story short, the MSB, for a few hundred dollars preowned, far outclassed the DAC section of the Meridian, a player that cost a few thousand dollars new. Their current Platinum DAC III uses all MSB chips. This is an excellent unit in stock configuration. Add the Signature Digital Filter, and their newest input board option (8X upsampling from a front panel switch select; 24/96 USB input available as an option with this board) and you have a D to A converter that is in a far different category from the majority. Sure, it is expensive, yet not as expensive as some vinyl playback configurations. I find that this unit exceeds the one-box from EMM Labs, at about the same price, and also exceeds the EMM Labs 2-box unit, at about twice the price.. The level of resolution from the MSB is striking, and loud passages do not constrict or overload. Find a willing dealer, or a fortunate owner, and listen.
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I agree that vinyl is obsolete. More importantly, most music by living musicians/composers is available only on CD. My personal point of view: Why would anyone waste their time listening to yet another only slightly different performance of their grandparents' music? Are you afraid to listen to new music because you might actually be required to form an opinion all on your own, independent of the opinions of others?
What the talking about grandparents' music. I have Sleater kinney, Gossip, Fever Ray, Barry Adamson, GSYBE, lots of new artist on new vinyl think your blowing smoke with that statement
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The level of resolution from the MSB is striking, and loud passages do not constrict or overload. Find a willing dealer, or a fortunate owner, and listen.
Unlike my experience with the unit.
I owned the MSB Gold Link DAC III...with every conceivable mod at the time from the strikingly talented Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio. In front of it was a fully modded Sony DVP-S7700...Steve's preferred dedicated player at the time (2002 or so). Every conceivable configuration of digital IC was tried (at every price point and from glass toslink to rca) and even added a Revelation Audio Labs (custom) umbilical and footers.
No sleight to Steve Nugent...but, that was $4500 :o down the tubes and was my most miserable 3+ years of my musical listening life (I ditched vinyl for it). Let me corect that - $3300 down the tubes as I sold it to a happy audiophile nearby (who loved it last I heard in 2007, so be it)
I happily replaced it with a $59 COBY CD player, with outboard 12v power supply from Radio Shack. I now have a Cambridge DVD99 with Dakiom interconnects, and an isolation transformer separating digital poison from the rest of my system. Both cheap setups far excelled the pricey MSB setup in naturalness and reality....for a few hundred invested only.
With the Cambridge, I now have access to truly good DVD-A recordings (and SACD, but that format hasn't thrilled me)
Vinyl is the only format that re-creates the original event - that of LIVE. All the digital technologies are second rate at that and excel mostly due to convenience. The more one listens to classical and (non-acid) jazz, the more one realizes the superiority of vinyl. That said, CD/Redbook players are near universally good the past 5 years and are available at great prices.
But, the MSB circa 2000? Not worth the bother even for the cheap prices they sell for today :|
Try a good, basic uncomplicated vinyl setup and I suspect you'll return here as 'FoundinPA' :lol:
John
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...Now I never heard vinyl played on a high quality TT with cartridge. If I had perhaps I would not have abandoned vinyl. However if the same amount of money invested into a TT with cartridge necessary to hear the merits of vinyl over cd is invested into dedicated cd player. Would the cd not still be just as good or superior to vinyl? ...
my experience has been that, once you get up to ~$500 (buying used), that is when winyl gear starts become as or more cost-effective than digital gear. that's imo, of course...
ymmv,
doug s.
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I have had vinyl playback systems, inexpensive and expensive, for the 1,600 LP's that I eventually had. I finally tired of the limitations caused by the "analog dither" of surface noise. Yes, it is always there, even on new copies of well pressed discs. Unlike LP, CD has an extremely low noise floor and wide dynamic range. I have seen pictures of oscilloscope traces that show high frequency content above 20 kHz from LP's, above the brick wall limitation of CD's. Big deal. These higher frequencies are not audible, although some say that they do make a difference (unspecified), and but a very few playings of an LP will effectively wipe out this information. Certainly a compelling argument for CD: LP is a medium that deteriorates with each playing.
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It sounds better though doesn't it?
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I have had vinyl playback systems, inexpensive and expensive, for the 1,600 LP's that I eventually had. I finally tired of the limitations caused by the "analog dither" of surface noise. Yes, it is always there, even on new copies of well pressed discs. Unlike LP, CD has an extremely low noise floor and wide dynamic range. I have seen pictures of oscilloscope traces that show high frequency content above 20 kHz from LP's, above the brick wall limitation of CD's. Big deal. These higher frequencies are not audible, although some say that they do make a difference (unspecified), and but a very few playings of an LP will effectively wipe out this information. Certainly a compelling argument for CD: LP is a medium that deteriorates with each playing.
many people prefer winyl w/its limitations; you prefer cd w/its limitations ; that's cool... both formats are not perfect.
dynamic range has more to do w/the recording process than the format itself. i have heard dynamic winyl and compressed cd's, and wice-wersa...
i have many records i got in the 70's that have not deteriorated at all...
ymmv,
doug s.
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...Certainly a compelling argument for CD: LP is a medium that deteriorates with each playing.
I have records that are 40 years old that sound new. If they are cleaned with each play, played on properly adjusted players with good styli, not played repeatedly, and stored properly (upright in a clean inner sleeve away from heat) they can last forever. Like Doug S, I think they break-even point for vinyl superiority is around $500. Cheers!
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and wice-wersa...
:rotflmao: I'm sorry, I just can't let that one go. That's the funniest thing I've seen all day. Thanks man! :thumb:
ymmv,
doug s.
Umm...shouldn't that be "ymmw" instead? (http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forums/images/smilies/Bob_rofl2.gif)
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Back to your regularly scheduled programming fellas.
Bob
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Certainly a compelling argument for CD: LP is a medium that deteriorates with each playing.
My stylus is treated with LAST Stylast - which retards wear by 10x on the stylus. As well, every record thoroughly cleaned is treated with LAST Record Preservative...which treats the 200th play like the 1st. Zero wear for 100's of plays.
http://www.lastfactory.com/Products/record_preservative.html
So, both stylus and record itself are barely degraded by repeated plays.
The topic asks if there are folks that prefer CD sonically...the actual respondents that do have been few and far between. Most that have responded affirmatively to CD superiority...seem to slip in the convenience aspect (as you have).
There really is zero argument on the convenient aspect...it's a given....but for music, vinyl has no equal among digital formats. I only wish a digital format sounded as good as vinyl done right - I am no fan of the pain, but I worship the music above all.
Don't know about tomorrow, but today that it's abundantly true that vinyl reigns supreme :thumb:
Like doug s. and scotthobby...$500 is about the right point at which additional money spent on digital benefits much I've found. I've got $550 invested in mine ($299 Cambridge DVD99, a pair of Dakiom Feedback Stabilizers $218 and a dedicated isolation transformer) and I'm damn :) happier with my digital set-up than I EVER thought I would be. As well, scads happier than with the overpriced and unfailingly dishonest sounding MSB setup I had a few years ago.
The MSB setup did indeed sound BIG...but it never reminded me of the actual event - live :guitar:
John
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One of the fellas on the Hawthorne site found > PROOF < (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5dCMz4gKLI) that vinyl is better.
Note, the comments below the video. There's a fella named "jigibao". Might be on the second page of comment as it's getting pretty low on the list. Does that sound like anybody we know? :wink:
Bob
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:lol: :roll:
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Sounds like a British New Wave Band, eh.
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One of the fellas on the Hawthorne site found > PROOF < that vinyl is better.
see ...... easy. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-merv/dj.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
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Hey!
Yes, I do prefer CD sonically... only when I can't find the album on vinyl LP :wink:
Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
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Hey!
Yes, I do prefer CD sonically... only when I can't find the album on vinyl LP :wink:
Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/seehearspeak.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
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If you have a few minutes spare. The chap seems like a really nice bloke. Even through my computer headphones over Youtube I can hear the better sound from the vinyl. Checkout at 5m 55sec.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u1dURD0Sr4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u1dURD0Sr4)
Even more conclusive undisputable incontravertable truth, yeah.
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Just finished listening to some records. A little Gluck on Accent and Holst on Philips and more. Got two belt drive tables, a Micro Seiki BL91 with a Premier arm and a first generation Koetsu (which was the) Black (I got into this long before digital) and a Nottingham Horizon with a modified Rega and a Grado Sonata. I love the excitement my digital system gives me but analog just gets me on some other level. Of the sides that this here listener has duplicated in both mediums, I gotta tell you, I loves the sensuality and warmth of analog and how the music seems to flow. I am remiss to buy classical music in digital. I have. That's how come I'm remiss. Fortunately (for me), I don't have a need.
Oh, I still buy solo piano in digital.
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I recently decided to get back into vinyl after 20 years of CDs and I must say it has been a real joy to hear uncompressed music for a change. It was a little strange at first but I really enjoy the natural sound of vinyl recordings. I can actually understand the lyrics and instruments sound pure and natural. Now I find it hard to listen to most CDs with the exception of SACD and DVD-A.
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if you dont want to miss vinyl, ONLY play CDs or another digital format.
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I recently decided to get back into vinyl after 20 years of CDs and I must say it has been a real joy to hear uncompressed music for a change. It was a little strange at first but I really enjoy the natural sound of vinyl recordings. I can actually understand the lyrics and instruments sound pure and natural. Now I find it hard to listen to most CDs with the exception of SACD and DVD-A.
To some degree, you have it backwards. The vinyl format is very limited in dynamic range, especially in the low end and that is why we have the wonderful RIAA equalization curve to restore the violent bass end that a stylus would normally not ever be able to track.
Digital on the other hand is capable of 100+ db of dynamic range. Telarc has several recordiings (like Holst, the Planets), that would blow your system up with the volume control at 10:30.
Compression is in the hands of the engineer recording the album. He may have a band like UFO that likes to play at 120bd and he has no choice but use compressors to calm things down or the recording is going to blow up on him, as apposed to a 4 piece polka band that required almost no compression.
Compression is not medium dependent, rather music content dependent.
Wayner
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CDs have notoriously compressed, and yes some compression and peak limiting is used on vinyl, the idiots marketing cd have gone nutz with it. surely you have seen the oscilloscope tracings illustrating this.
for all the claims of digital proponents, vinyl mostly still has the edge on dynamics. the JUMP factor is much more prominent on LP than cd. also, there is signal BELOW the noise floor of analog but NOT on digital. the same goes for overload. once digital overloads, its a horrible noise, with analog, there is tape compression and some tolerable distortion.
i thing what he is trying to say is the sound is more relaxed which is one of the factors i always highlight when explaining A vs D. that relaxed/satisfying feeling from analog vs the tense/done with it feeling of digital.
these factors are mitigated with sacd and dvda.