[funkmonkey]

I have had my HT3s for a couple of months now and have done some extensive listening, and even had one guy over to audition them.  After that audition, he commented on the bass resolution not being quite right, for him.  That response made me scrutinize them even closer.  After listening to a very wide variety of music and an equally wide variety of recording qualities, I am beginning to agree.  I must stress that I am not sure if it is the fault of the HT3, I am more inclined to believe that it may be room and/or hearing related...

There have been several instances where I felt as if I was missing some part of the bass response, with songs I am very familiar my mind has been filling in the missing bass lines.  I still can't quite put a finger on what is missing, or exactly what part of the range is lacking, because there are many songs where I do not perceive anything missing or recessed.  Because of this, I had written it off to the recordings themselves. I hear it it jazz recordings where the higher notes of the upright bass are very faint, and much lower in volume than I think they should be.  Then, within the same song the very deep and low notes will resonate with full intensity.  I notice it with electric bass as well, where it will seem as if the instrument is much more recessed than it is when I listen to the same recording through headphones or on a different system.  It's like there is a big suck-out in the mid bass or something...  I must note here that this is mostly when listening at lower levels, and that increasing the overall volume does put things into better balance.  I've played around a bit with placement, though not extensively, and relative listening position but it didn't affect the intermittent hole that I've been hearing. 

This led me to question what the HT3s were actually putting out, so I downloaded a wide range of test tones from here burned them to a CD and let them rip at a low volume.  Keep in mind this is all by my ear, I did not use any measuring equipment.

• 20Hz was completely inaudible... I could see the woofer working furiously as I turned the volume up but I didn't hear anything.  I stopped at just over 50% volume because i did not want to damage anything
• 25Hz was very, very quiet... just barely audible even as I increased the volume to 50%
• 31.5 Hz was very, very quiet as well (much too quiet for the stated feq. response of the HT3), I didn't hear anything until I reached 40% volume
• 40Hz should have been equal in volume to the higher frequencies, but was still nowhere even close, becoming audible around 30%
• 50Hz sounded like it was still several dBs lower than the rest of the test tones, but was audible at all volumes
• 63Hz was getting closer to being in balance
• 80Hz - 200Hz were all about the same
• the 250Hz - 2500Hz range were all louder at 10% volume than the rest of the tones
• somewhere around 3150Hz and up through 16000Hz the volume came back down a little
• 20,000Hz I heard nothing, but I am certain that is from wear and tear on my ear drums

I have no means to test the source material for consistency of volume, or another room to run the HT3s in to cross check that way, but I thought I would open this up for debate here, and hopefully possible solutions and/or explanations.

For the most part I truly LOVE my HT3s, but 90% of the time, I am unable to crank them up to the volume required to get them to sound their best.  I bought them with the knowledge that this would be an issue for the time being, and have no regrets.  What I am looking for are ways to enhance their performance at low volumes. 

Has anybody else noticed this kind of behavior with their HT3s? 
Has anyone been able to do a direct comparison between the old woofer version and the new?
(I auditioned the old version, and did not notice the same things that this post is about, but I also did not spend anywhere near as much time with the old versions as I have with the new)
I did notice, right away, that they sounded more in balance at higher volumes but after having lived with them for an extended amount of time now I have realized that my currently allowed listening level (wife, neighbors, police!  )is well below this point.
Does anyone have any performance graphs of the HT3s that include data from below 200Hz? (Dennis was kind enough to send me graphs a while ago that went down to 200Hz but nothing below, and they seemed to show a steep drop right at that 200Hz mark.  I do know that when you get that low response is very room dependent; I am just curious what the raw output of the HT3 is below 200Hz)

Honestly this could all be in my head, or contributed (as I originally thought) solely to the recording.  I am just trying to rest my troubled mind, and be secure in the knowledge that the HT3s are doing their job throughout the full spectrum.
Cheers,
Greg

[zybar]

Greg,

Unless the new woofer is substantially worse than the older one (which I think we all highly doubt), there probably isn't anything wrong with your HT3's.

My HT3's measured almost flat into the upper 20 Hz region in two different rooms, so I know the speaker is certainly capable of playing low with authority.

I don't know that site you linked to.  To be safe, I suggest downloading the test tones from the Realtraps.com site:

http://www.realtraps.com/info.htm

I have used these and know that are the real deal.

You also mentioned changing the listening position didn't effect things much.  Moving as little as one inch should have a measurable result - even if you are just using a simple Radio Shack analog meter.

Here are a few questions that will allow us to help out:

How are you measuring things?

What type (if any) of room treatment do you have?

What is the size of your room?

What decibel level did you run your tests at?

Hang in there and don't fret too much.  This sure sounds like classic speaker/listener interactions with the room and as such, is something that certainly can be made better.
 
George

[Kokishin]

Greg,

Check to make sure everything is connected in phase from the source->amplification->speakers.  Simple test is to swap the +/- on one speaker.

[funkmonkey]

I agree with you 100% George, and I am really not fretting about it.  I really only notice the oddness at low volumes.  I was hesitant to even post, because I like my HT3s so much.  Thanks for the link to realtraps, I will check that out.

To answer your questions:

How are you measuring things?
I'm not, just by my ear

What type (if any) of room treatment do you have?
absolutely none... yet.

What is the size of your room?
19' 6" (front wall) X 13' 2" X 8' 2" (height)

What decibel level did you run your tests at?
no idea.  My testing was done in a very un-scientific manner.  Playback was from an Oppo 983 directly into my amp (Halo A-51)

This sure sounds like classic speaker/listener interactions with the room and as such, is something that certainly can be made better.
 
George

I am 99% certain that it is the room, too.  I am just surprised that (and wonder if it is even possible) for a room to completely cancel out certain frequencies and leave others that are very close unaffected (or at least nearly unaffected)

SPL meter is on my list of stuff to get, but I was/am waiting to deal with room treatments until I can get into a more permanent living situation.  Which is why I asked if anybody had any hard data concerning the bass region for the HT3s.

I have verified that all is hooked up in phase (thanks Kokishin)

[Kris]

I hate to say that, but if you are listening at very low levels you need to engage the loudness switch.

[oneinthepipe]

I am just surprised that (and wonder if it is even possible) for a room to completely cancel out certain frequencies.

The HT3 should provide flat frequency output between 34hz and 25000hz, in the ideal room, with an F3 of 29hz, and you should ordinarily have been hearing those low notes with authority.

I m sure that I will mess this up, but standing waves from room nodes, I believe, will completely cancel a range of frequencies and muddy other frequencies.  Fortunately, that are generally many free and/or inexpensive room acoustic modifications that will improve the quantity and quality of the bass response, improve midrange definition, and tame high frequency reflections.  First, you need to assess your problem by locating the best speaker and seating placements and then taking measurements of frequency responses and consult with someone who knows what they are doing, whether that is George, Ethan Winer, or Bryan Pape on the Acoustic forum.  Based upon my reading, the suggestions will revolve around speaker placement, broadband absorption panels, and diffusion, if you raise issues beyond bass.  But for bass problems, i.e., inadequate bass, boomy bass, bass humps, and suckout,  I believe that you will be advised to bring your speakers sufficiently away from the front wall and corners and install bass traps in the corners.  Your HT3 play low, and you will have tighter, deeper, and flatter base with some minimal modificiations. 

Check out the threads on the Acoustic forum.

Good luck.  Henry

[MichiganMike]

The human ear is not very sensitive to low frequency sounds.  There is also considerable individual variation in sensitivity and ability to judge by ear the loudness of such tones.  At times I felt that bass response in my system was lacking when listening and was surprised to find when I used a sound meter and low frequency sweep as a source that the loudness exceeded 90 dB.

Before spending much time on speculation, I suggest you accelerate your plans to purchase a sound meter and use a low frequency sweep as a source which you can download for free. You can get a meter at Radio Shack for $45 which is well worth the investment.  Objective data will help you optimize placement of your speakers and determine the need for room treatments.   

[cadobhuk]

The human ear is not very sensitive to low frequency sounds.  There is also considerable individual variation in sensitivity and ability to judge by ear the loudness of such tones.  At times I felt that bass response in my system was lacking when listening and was surprised to find when I used a sound meter and low frequency sweep as a source that the loudness exceeded 90 dB.

Before spending much time on speculation, I suggest you accelerate your plans to purchase a sound meter and use a low frequency sweep as a source which you can download for free. You can get a meter at Radio Shack for $45 which is well worth the investment.  Objective data will help you optimize placement of your speakers and determine the need for room treatments.   

Agreed. When I stress tested my eD sub, my SPL meter hit over 110db and it didn't bother my ears, but with the speakers and higher frequencies, much lower levels became painfully loud. So the "spl meter" in human brain/ears is hardly accurate, and a mechanical one should be used. And to minimize room's influence on sound, listen to a single speaker from a distance of 3-5 feet - you will pretty much hear the speaker and not the room.

[jsalk]

funkmonkey -

I obviously can't say for certain, but the following comment you made may provide some insight into your situation.

"For the most part I truly LOVE my HT3s, but 90% of the time, I am unable to crank them up to the volume required to get them to sound their best."

Fletcher and Munson did some very interesting studies in the 1930's that showed that human hearing is quite insensitive to bass frequencies at low volumes.  In the '70's, many manufacturers installed "loudness" controls in receivers that would boost the bass when volume levels were low.  Many people had no idea what this function was actually for and had it engaged all the time.

Here is a link to a write up on the issue.

http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=loudnesscontrol_ts

If your HT3's bass response sounds great at higher volumes, your issue may be as simple as this.

- Jim

[DMurphy]

Hi  The worst-case scenario here would be that the woofer-mid cross was reversed from the proper polarity.  I'm pretty darn sure that's not the case, however, both because Jim wouldn't do it, and the resulting cancellation would affect frequencies between 200 and about 500 Hz, which is apparently not the case.  The HT3, both in the new and old versions, has ample response between 30 Hz and 100 Hz.  That's really not an issue.  Have you tried walking around the room, and even going into another room when you're playing the deep bass (30Hz - 50 Hz)?  There is a huge difference in my listening room depending on where I am standing, and the most prominent bass is in my bedroom and upstairs in the kitchen.

[AliG]

Funk,

  Just add a sub, and you shall never look back.. aa

barry

[funkmonkey]

I hate to say that, but if you are listening at very low levels you need to engage the loudness switch.

funkmonkey -

I obviously can't say for certain, but the following comment you made may provide some insight into your situation.

"For the most part I truly LOVE my HT3s, but 90% of the time, I am unable to crank them up to the volume required to get them to sound their best."

Fletcher and Munson did some very interesting studies in the 1930's that showed that human hearing is quite insensitive to bass frequencies at low volumes.  In the '70's, many manufacturers installed "loudness" controls in receivers that would boost the bass when volume levels were low.  Many people had no idea what this function was actually for and had it engaged all the time.

Here is a link to a write up on the issue.

http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=loudnesscontrol_ts

If your HT3's bass response sounds great at higher volumes, your issue may be as simple as this.

- Jim

I really think you guys nailed it.  I no longer have a loudness button...    (or a headphone jack), since I upgraded my electronics.  Those are two, apparently "low-fi," things that I really miss on my higher end pre-amp.

Thank you for posting that article Jim.  Great read.  I really had to laugh at myself when I was looking at this graph:



It pretty much illustrates exactly what I was hearing with the test tones.  I think I can safely say that my hearing test came out normal 

Dennis- thanks for chiming in, I agree with you and seriously doubt that there is any problem with the crossover.  I will further explore positioning, and placement, until I can get into the next room (at which point I will be making some panels/treatments).

Barry(AliG)-  I plan to add a sub, eventually, but it will only be used for movies.

Thanks guys,
Greg

[Nuance]

I am 99% certain that it is the room, too.  I am just surprised that (and wonder if it is even possible) for a room to completely cancel out certain frequencies and leave others that are very close unaffected (or at least nearly unaffected)

Unfortunately what you speak of is VERY common.  Before I EQ'd my subwoofer, I had a huge midbass peak at 55Hz, then a giant dropoff at 63Hz.  In-room peaks and valley's can have a very wide or short bandwidth.  In other words, they can be very wide or very thin. 

You have a PM.  It's the room - I am 99% certain. 

[nyc_paramedic]

I am 99% certain that it is the room, too.  I am just surprised that (and wonder if it is even possible) for a room to completely cancel out certain frequencies and leave others that are very close unaffected (or at least nearly unaffected)

Unfortunately what you speak of is VERY common.  Before I EQ'd my subwoofer, I had a huge midbass peak at 55Hz, then a giant dropoff at 63Hz.  In-room peaks and valley's can have a very wide or short bandwidth.  In other words, they can be very wide or very thin. 

You have a PM.  It's the room - I am 99% certain. 

I'll second that. I was having similar issues in a smallish room (17x13 & 9 foot ceilings) with bass response. After installing numerous Real Traps my room was *transformed* to something spectacular. Bass was much tighter and lower and the midrange became a thing of beauty. 

Sounds strange that "traps" would lead to more bass, but that's what happens when you correct the nulls with the bass traps.

Please speak to Ethan at Real Traps. The website has lots of useful information. Read all the info and downlod his CD of test tones.

I have been a *very* satisfied customer and would never, ever consider listening to music without his products. You also get a 30 day money back guarantee, 10 year warranty, and the ability to pick Ethan's brain anytime.


Disclaimer: No affiliation to Real Traps whatsoever.

[funkmonkey]

Thanks Nuance, and nyc_paramedic.

I hit you back with a PM bud.  My pigheadedness won't let me treat the room I am in, as it's an apartment and I am currently looking for a house to get into.  When that happens, I already have the go ahead (from the wife) to treat the shit out of it.  Most will be DIY but I will take the endorsements for RealTraps to heart.

Thanks again,
Greg

[Boybees]

Greg, I believe the first time you heard Salk speakers was when I demo'ed my Song Towers for you about a year and a half ago. At that time we discussed your room and you and I agreed that you could spend a boat load of money on speakers and yet still not get the sound you were craving because of room issues. It sounds to me as though you are coming to terms with that fundamental truth.

To me, a speaker system includes both the loudspeaker and the room. Unfortunately, when you commit to a speaker like the HT3, you also commit to optimizing the room. You simply cannot do one with out the other and expect to realize the HT3's capabilities.

I will also comment that my Song Towers are at their best at volume levels which are not sustainable for long periods of time due to neighbor issues. The Song Towers like to be cranked up: at lower volumes they sound very good, but not great. Again, my system, my room: YMMV.

[Bob in St. Louis]

You fellas might find this useful.

It's a very nice interactive frequency chart. Keep an eye on the "Ear Sensitivity" chart on the lower left while hovering the mouse over the larger chart. Also, click that same small chart to see where our ears are weakest compared to test equipment.


Hope that helps.
Bob

[JP78]

The Song Towers like to be cranked up: at lower volumes they sound very good, but not great. Again, my system, my room: YMMV.

i think it's safe to say most speakers exhibit this behavior due to the aforementioned fletcher munson curve...unless the speaker has the loudness button built into it .

[Don_S]

Bob,

Fantastic chart.  Thanks big time.   

[Nuance]

Thanks Nuance, and nyc_paramedic.

I hit you back with a PM bud.  My pigheadedness won't let me treat the room I am in, as it's an apartment and I am currently looking for a house to get into.  When that happens, I already have the go ahead (from the wife) to treat the shit out of it.  Most will be DIY but I will take the endorsements for RealTraps to heart.

Thanks again,
Greg

I know you cannot treat the room; I've been there too.  However, my suggestion(s) still stand if nothing else to make you aware of what the issue really is.  Download REW, get an SPL meter and decent soundcard, and measure that room.  The SPL meter is good up to 3KHz with the calibration file from Home Theater Shack.  Then post the graphs here and we'll all be able to figure out what's what.  Also, then when you move you'll be familiar with the program and your system setup/calibration will be a cinch.