AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: Freo-1 on 26 Apr 2012, 11:59 pm
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Here is some data on digital amps:
http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible (http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible)
I have yet to hear a switching amp that can compare with a well designed Class A amp.
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This was all before ncore, hence "game changer"
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This was all before ncore, hence "game changer"
Disagree. No real engineering background to support the claim. Switching amps ALL more or less work the same. Unless the laws of physics have been somehow changed, this amp has the same limitations any switching amp has.
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Disagree. No real engineering background to support the claim. Switching amps ALL more or less work the same. Unless the laws of physics have been somehow changed, this amp has the same limitations any switching amp has.
If you took 10 minutes to research the Hypex modules you wouldn't have posted this drivel. There have been some changes in the technology since your '05 eetimes article was published. Here's a link (http://hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=62) if you are so inclined to educate yourself.
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/UcD180HG_datasheet.pdf (http://www.hypex.nl/docs/UcD180HG_datasheet.pdf)
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf (http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf)
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Disagree. No real engineering background to support the claim. Switching amps ALL more or less work the same. ...
Which means nothing....All class A amps ALL more or less work the same too....Some clearly work better than others.
The specs of the Ncore are better than any other class d I am aware of. And based on the reviews to date, they perform at a very high level. The performance being reported at their price would certainly appear to be game changing....
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Which means nothing....All class A amps ALL more or less work the same too....Some clearly work better than others.
The specs of the Ncore are better than any other class d I am aware of. And based on the reviews to date, they perform at a very high level. The performance being reported at their price would certainly appear to be game changing....
No, it means that class D has limitations that class A does not have. Again, what engineering data is available that shows the limitations of switching amps have been overcome. Have not seen it.
It took 20 to 30 years to get solid state to sound decent. Switching amps have more issues to overcome. Gonna take more than a couple of people stating it's better to validate. How is it better? What mods were made? How do they work around the existing limitations/switching transients? So, only hype/opinions.
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The following explains some issues with switching amps:
http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf (http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf)
I have not seen anything from the AES crowd that talks to how these issues have been addresssed. All I have seen is marketing.
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Here is some data on digital amps:
http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible (http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible)
I have yet to hear a switching amp that can compare with a well designed Class A amp.
Freo-1,
I agree with your general assertion that Class D amps don't sound as good as Class A amps. I have been a huge Class A fan for years and continue to believe that overall it is a great approach to designing amps.
Granted it just a few of our opinions, but six people (myself included) who own or owned outstanding and well reviewed Class A amps from Atma-Sphere, Clayton Audio, Lamm, and Pass have now said that the Ncore amps performed as well or better.
Frankly, I could care less about technically proving or disproving the technology.
I care about what I hear.
What I heard has made me purchase the Ncore modules.
George
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Here is some data on digital amps:
http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible (http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible)
Freo-1
I agree. Having amps for a few days to audition isn't enough time to take them outside of the honeymoon effect. A real "game changer" it is not by any stretch. I have no doubt they are good and as I have noted before will have a niche place in the market.
Jim
I have yet to hear a switching amp that can compare with a well designed Class A amp.
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Disagree. No real engineering background to support the claim. Switching amps ALL more or less work the same. Unless the laws of physics have been somehow changed, this amp has the same limitations any switching amp has.
All the article said was that the criteria & methods for testing a class d amp is different than for a linear amp. It didn't comment on the intrinsic quality of class d vs a linear amp.
All Calss AB amps work basically the same how based on ps design, crossover distortion, NFB ect they can sound dramatically different.
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Jim,
I disagree that few days wasn't enough to evaluate the amps.
My speaker/amp combo has been the same for almost three years. Another year or so with the preamp and digital front end.
I know my system's sound very well, and can easily discern what an amplifier change is causing.
It's not like I am some wet behind the ears audiophile nor am I trying to claim the Ncore is a giant slayer because I can't afford the giant.
What it wasn't a long enough period of time for was to do a long term evaluation. Hence, why I am not selling my amps quite yet.
George
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The following explains some issues with switching amps:
http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf (http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf)
I have not seen anything from the AES crowd that talks to how these issues have been addresssed. All I have seen is marketing.
This paper was written prior to the Hypex UcD much less the Ncore. They reference the nuforce which has had measurable problems. Cooolomm made the following points:
"Far from being simple and cost effective, Class D is a finely tuned and complex technology requiring immense care in its execution
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Speaking of getting out, there should be flotilla of digital amps at the upcoming Newport show and will again take them in. I know there will be some of the usual suspects, Bel Canto, Moon, etc., to put an ear to.
At worst, it will give me a good yes, no, maybe.
Jim
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I'm extremely skeptical of any kind of digital amp, mainly because I've never heard one that I would consider mediocre, let alone "good". But if Mike is very nice, maybe I'll get to hear his nCores at some point. I do know for a fact that his system is absolutely ruthless in revealing weaknesses in upstream equipment.
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Cab:
I'm very cognizant of the strides made by class D, especially in Audiophile Mobile Audio. Btw, I am the facilitator of a circle called Audiophile Mobile Audio and have a nice class D head unit. 8)
Jim
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Cab:
I'm very cognizant of the strides made by class D, especially in Audiophile Mobile Audio. Btw, I am the facilitator of a circle called Audiophile Mobile Audio and have a nice class D head unit. 8)
Jim
Oranges and apples....
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Oranges and apples....
Not at all, but I do like class D for near field and that is what you get in mobile audio. Understand, I'm not bagging on Class D, but am against those who are on the sidelines and are acting like high school teenagers with all of the hyperbole, which detracts from those who have actually auditioned the Ncores.
The facilitator asked that this not happen and yet it did, again. The personal attacks were also a contributing reason for part of the thread being parsed out and quarantined.
Jim
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Not aware of any Hypex car audio products which means comparing car audio to home audio is like comparing the class d amps in cell phones to car audio.
Not uncommon for people to get excited about a product that performs at levels heretofore reserved for products at many multiples of the price. Rare in this hobby....
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Cab:
Simply put, if lived up to a 1/4 of the hype, it would be mainstream by now, not just in the DIY world.
Jim
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I have owned three amps with switching power supplies, and they all sounded 30-40% better running on a battery.
I would buy an Ncore in a heartbeat if it ran off of battery.
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Cab:
Simply put, if lived up to a 1/4 of the hype, it would be mainstream by now, not just in the DIY world.
Jim
All in good time....Ncore has just recently been released.....
Perhaps you haven't noticed that there are more class d amps in consumer products now than all other types combined.....
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If I tried ncore it would have to be a nIght and day difference from the class d I had in 97 cause that shit was sad.
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I have owned three amps with switching power supplies, and they all sounded 30-40% better running on a battery.
I would buy an Ncore in a heartbeat if it ran off of battery.
In doesn't follow that the same must hold true for the ncore....
And by the way, it can be run on a battery, it would just be a bit more complicated due to the multiple voltages required...
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Tom:
I bet you are correct and frankly am miffed why they can't be operated on a battery power supply.
Jim
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Yet another cheer leader from the sidelines.....
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In doesn't follow that the same must hold true for the ncore....
And by the way, it can be run on a battery, it would just be a bit more complicated due to the multiple voltages required...
A switching power supply is a swirching power supply no matter what company makes it. My ears are very keen to electronic glare, and all switching power supplies on amps I have ever heard has that same electronic glare.
Replace the switching power supply with a battery, and voila! :thumb:
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Tom:
I bet you are correct and frankly am miffed why they can't be operated on a battery power supply.
Jim
You seem to have a problem comprehending written English.....repeat, they can be operated on a battery....why don't you give it a try and let us know how it turns out?
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Tom:
I bet you are correct and frankly am miffed why they can't be operated on a battery power supply.
Jim
If you choose not to use the Hypex SMPS, you'd just need to supply +/-64v for output stages and +/-16-25v for input stages. The data sheets tell you all you need to know.
I've dealt with SMPS in one way or another my whole life, in and out of audio, usually with disdain unless I have to move them somewhere. All I can say is keep an open mind on these when paired as a system before you start hauling batteries in.
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A switching power supply is a swirching power supply no matter what company makes it. My ears are very keen to electronic glare, and all switching power supplies on amps I have ever heard has that same electronic glare.
Replace the switching power supply with a battery, and voila! :thumb:
Try listening before you generalize and spread your dogma and your opinion will be taken more seriously....
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Cab:
The dogma and carp I'm hearing is from you. Others are not personalizing or getting defensive. It's not like you own the company or work for Bruno, but you sure are acting as you do.
If they are so good, they will rise on their own merit and not from those who chose to be nebbish in their fervent posts.
Jim
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Cab:
The dogma and carp I'm hearing is from you. Others are not personalizing or getting defensive. It's not like you own the company or work for Bruno, but you sure are acting as you do.
If they are so good, they will rise on their own merit and not from those who chose to be nebbish in their fervent posts.
Jim
Unlike yourself, I have made no generalizations about class d or called anyone a cheerleader....in fact, all I have done is said listen before you judge because without any direct experience, you have no basis for making any qualitative statements.
Products don't become popular in a vacuum. They become popular because people think they are good, tell other people, and the cycle repeats.
So people are excited about this product because it seems to offer heretofore unheard performance at or greatly above its price point. You would think that would appeal to anyone with an interest in this hobby.
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The linked article in the first post was written way back in 2005. Have any us heard from this writer or his company since then?
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So people are excited about this product because it seems to offer heretofore unheard performance at or greatly above its price point. You would think that would appeal to anyone with an interest in this hobby.
Before the net, there has been several great products with unheard performance over the yaers. The dealers just never told you about them. The Musical Fidelity A1 at $375 retail is just one of them. If you heard one of these in your present system today, you would be shocked. They are selling used on Ebay in the $300 range. Not bad since these were made 25 years ago.
Now before you make any generalizations, you need to hear one for yourself.
$1900 by the time you get the Ncores assembled in cases is a great value? And what will be the resale value in a couple of years?
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Once again, it is becoming a circular argument...doesn't anyone ever learn?
Jim
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Before the net, there has been several great products with unheard performance over the yaers. The dealers just never told you about them. The Musical Fidelity A1 at $375 retail is just one of them. If you heard one of these in your present system today, you would be shocked. They are selling used on Ebay in the $300 range. Not bad since these were made 25 years ago.
Now before you make any generalizations, you need to hear one for yourself.
Thanks for the tip...I will run right out and buy one....
$1900 by the time you get the Ncores assembled in cases is a great value? And what will be the resale value in a couple of years?
I couldn't care less as I don't purchase equipment based on resale value-I purchase based on performance, and since there have been many reports of the ncore besting amps at many times its price, I would indeed consider it to have the potential to offer great value.
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Why don't they just put a good linear power supply in it ?
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Why don't they just put a good linear power supply in it ?
It is a diy product. Feel free to put any type of power supply you want in it....
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Try listening before you generalize and spread your dogma and your opinion will be taken more seriously....
I am not spreading anything. I am just saying what I hear from SWPS. If you do not hear the electronic glare of SWPS, then you have no worries. :thumb:
Do you work for Hypex?
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I am not spreading anything. I am just saying what I hear from SWPS. If you do not hear the electronic glare of SWPS, then you have no worries. :thumb:
Do you work for Hypex?
You don't have to work for Hypex to have an open mind....
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You guys are helping me win my bet this thread doessn't make it to 50 posts. Carry on.
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I am not spreading anything. I am just saying what I hear from SWPS. If you do not hear the electronic glare of SWPS, then you have no worries. :thumb:
Uh-oh, is whatever causes doug s to use w's where they aren't usually used contagious??? We might need an AC quarantine before this spreads to the general pubwic.
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You don't have to work for Hypex to have an open mind....
Since you are positively so sure that the Ncores are that great, I will gladly pay you $100 plus shipping here and to your place, to let me borrow yours for a weekend. :D
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You guys are helping me win my bet this thread doessn't make it to 50 posts. Carry on.
What other amps should we talk about? Let's make it to at least 50.
I emailed Theta and their new Prometheus Class D amps has been delayed due to their new pre-amp being designed.
And Mola-Mola will be showing their new line in Munich next week. Here is a list of all the vendors showing in Munich. Is anyone going to Munich?
http://www.highendsociety.de/english/presse/marken.php
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OzarkTom:
Mola Mola is Ncore, Bruno....probably won't get to 50 before it get's totally binned....
Jim
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OzarkTom:
Mola Mola is Ncore, Bruno....
Jim
I know. Just trying to keep everyone updated in case they want Ncore finished, but not DIY.
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And we all thought Rclark was the real cheer-leader....
Jim
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I have owned three amps with switching power supplies, and they all sounded 30-40% better running on a battery.
I would buy an Ncore in a heartbeat if it ran off of battery.
Tom,
I don't think anything would preclude you from running the NCores off your own battery pack. The output stage runs off bipolar rails between 35-75v and the signal section from bipolar between 16-25v.
Vinnie from RedWine Audio demonstrated his excellent sounding Class AB amplifier at the NY Waldorf Astoria show that uses a LiPo battery pack providing +- 52v rails. I wouldn't know the economic viability of such a product, but Vinnie could certainly provide an appropriate battery supply for the Ncores.
FWIW,
Paul
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What other amps should we talk about? Let's make it to at least 50.
I emailed Theta and their new Prometheus Class D amps has been delayed due to their new pre-amp being designed.
And Mola-Mola will be showing their new line in Munich next week. Here is a list of all the vendors showing in Munich. Is anyone going to Munich?
http://www.highendsociety.de/english/presse/marken.php
I don't know what other commercial offerings are in the wings, but I'd look for a lot of the powered speaker flavor in the future, like Grimm. Integrated systems and such too. It's early.
In terms of the title "Class D vs the rest", I've had, among others, mostly class A for the last 5 years or so, with the AB ones biased heavy to class A for the first few watts:
McCormack DNA-500 (AB)
Joule VZN100 Musicwood mono OTL's (A - tube)
Odyssey Extreme SE Glass Ceiling mono's (AB)
Bella Extreme 3205 (I think AB - tube)
DIY First Watt F3 (A)
DIY First Watt F4 mono's (A)
DIY First Watt F5's (A)
DIY Pass Labs Aleph J (A)
Bryston 7BSST2 mono's (AB)
Atma-Sphere M60 OTL mono's (A - tube)
I've auditioned at various times class D from NuForce, Channel Islands, Wyred4Sound, and a couple others I forget. I never got to hear a DAC Cherry but I'm sure it's really good also. I'll spare the hyperbole but from memory I doubt any of the ones I've heard would fare well vs the NCores. There's just no way for me to tell because I don't have them all in the same system at the same time. I didn't buy any of them so I suppose that says something.
I've built various class A amps since Nelson Pass's first A40 from Audio Amateur many years ago and these amps do it for me in ways good class A amps do but there is more there, with no harshness or syrup, no softening at extremes, etc. They get it all.
I just have to wear a blindfold to get over what's inside because I can't get my engineering head around why they sound as good as they do, lightweights, tiny heatsinks, SMT parts, SMPS's and all :green:
Are we at 50 yet?
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Tom,
I don't think anything would preclude you from running the NCores off your own battery pack. The output stage runs off bipolar rails between 35-75v and the signal section from bipolar between 16-25v.
Vinnie from RedWine Audio demonstrated his excellent sounding Class AB amplifier at the NY Waldorf Astoria show that uses a LiPo battery pack providing +- 52v rails. I wouldn't know the economic viability of such a product, but Vinnie could certainly provide an appropriate battery supply for the Ncores.
FWIW,
Paul
I wish I knew more about batteries, Paul, maybe Vinnie will come to the rescue. Vinnie could make a lot of money here on this Ncore battery project.
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I've built various class A amps since Nelson Pass's first A40 from Audio Amateur many years ago and these amps do it for me in ways good class A amps do but there is more there, with no harshness or syrup, no softening at extremes, etc. They get it all.
I just have to wear a blindfold to get over what's inside because I can't get my engineering head around why they sound as good as they do, lightweights, tiny heatsinks, SMT parts, SMPS's and all :green:
Do you want to make $100?
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Do you want to make $100?
Sorry no, I've been amp-less for a couple months and am not nearly as generous as Jason. I've contributed XLR adapters to his tour, that's about it.
BTW, this sort of thing should be PM as it doesn't contribute to the thread, and it adds fluff towards the 50 posts.
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Do you want to make $100?
Darn, you baited me perfectly. I posted #50 :icon_lol:
Now maybe some one will talk about their experiences with various good class D vs others (A, AB, H, etc.).
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I work for an old fashioned brick and mortar audio shop (mid fi stuff) and our Anthem rep stopped by a few weeks ago with the new Anthem M1 amp (mono, 1000 wpc). About 2/3 of the VERY small chassis innards were devoted to power supply, and the rep swears that a pair of those amps sound much better than his former reference (Anthem P2) that was a linear supplied Class A/B amp. Unfortunately he only had one amp with him (a clear topped demo), and listening to mono wasn't gonna fly... so I don't know from personal experience if the Class D amp is as terrific as the rep says. Still, it was encouraging to see a company with long roots in the Class A/B amp territory venturing into Class D.
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If I tried ncore it would have to be a nIght and day difference from the class d I had in 97 cause that shit was sad.
How would a PC and monitor from 1997 compare to a CPU & monitor purchased today?
Or a transistor amp from 1970 vs a ss amp from 85?
Technology changes....
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$1900 by the time you get the Ncores assembled in cases is a great value? And what will be the resale value in a couple of years?
People generally don't do DIY for resale value and there could be differences between DIY Ncores dur to things like the RFI performance of the enclsure and the user supplier wiring.
That is why 90% of the Hypex UcD sales were to OEM's selling finished product.
I haven't heard the Ncores. I am fascinated that see good DIY amp builders who were using Pass Class A designs as their amps prefer the Ncores.
These guys have spent a good amount of time measuring as well as listening to class a as well as these ncore
YMMV
I haven't heard the Ncore and won't be in the market for at least a year
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Why don't they just put a good linear power supply in it ?
The designer of the module designed a PS to work specifically with this module, his opinion is thst the ps he designed would work as wel/better than a linear supply.
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Before the net, there has been several great products with unheard performance over the yaers. The dealers just never told you about them. The Musical Fidelity A1 at $375 retail is just one of them. If you heard one of these in your present system today, you would be shocked. They are selling used on Ebay in the $300 range. Not bad since these were made 25 years ago.
Interesting you would single out the Musical Fidelity A1. I still clearly remember hearing the A1 for the first time. I was in retail 20 years ago and the A1 sounded so much better in certain respects than all the other amps we were selling (I remember orchestral string sections sounding great) that I doubted what I was hearing and thought there might be something else at play - perhaps large amounts of even order added harmonics such as tubes tend to provide - and I put the experience on my mental back burner for further consideration. We only ever had the one amp, so I never got the opportunity to double check. Other amps we had on hand for comparison included YBA, Sugden, Carver and the like.
When Stereophile did the issue with the photos of the Krell and the Cary amps and the caption "If one of these is right, the other is wrong!" I was reminded of the Musical Fidelity A1.
I am guessing hearing the Ncores will provide a similar epiphany, from all the comments.
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I will comment on this thread in order to relate my experiences with Class D designs to date.
Four years ago I had several high quality switching amps in my system (brand names are irrelevant, neither is currently available). One was very clear and bright sounding, but gave me listening fatigue after about an hour. I retired it in favor of another amp (also in the 200W/ch power range like my first switching amp), which I was predisposed to like because it was manufactured by a friend of mine and had good reviews. My initial impression was that the amp was very listenable, natural, detailed but not overly so. I was about to call my friend (to complement him) when I noticed I felt rather queasy. After a few more minutes I became quite ill and turned off the music. I felt upset and nauseous for several hours thereafter. This unpleasant experience repeated itself the next time I tried to listen. I returned the amp to its designer with regrets, telling him I appeared to be allergic to it.
I invite anyone with a generator and scope to observe the output waveform (sinusoid and square wave) of any switching amp. You will see, as I did, large amounts of out of band noise and oscillation. Square waves above 1 kHz look bad.
Recently at CES I co-exhibited with Wyred4Sound and used their DAC and preamp with Ampzilla Class AB electronics and one of their W4S branded Class D amplifiers. I did not experience the same stomach upset I had with those earlier amplifiers.. Recently I had the W4S small integrated (100W/ch) in my system for several months, listening almost daily without fatigue or distress. The sound was clear, natural, and well defined.
I understand switching amps are particularly load sensitive and react strongly to large phase angles, impedance dips, and reactive loads in general. This might account for the wide range of opinions from owners using such amps with various brands and designs of speakers, particularly those with high order crossover filter slopes.
Brian Cheney
Owner, VMPS Audio Products
www.vmpsaudio.com
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Interesting you would single out the Musical Fidelity A1. I still clearly remember hearing the A1 for the first time. I was in retail 20 years ago and the A1 sounded so much better in certain respects than all the other amps we were selling (I remember orchestral string sections sounding great) that I doubted what I was hearing and thought there might be something else at play - perhaps large amounts of even order added harmonics such as tubes tend to provide - and I put the experience on my mental back burner for further consideration. We only ever had the one amp, so I never got the opportunity to double check. Other amps we had on hand for comparison included YBA, Sugden, Carver and the like..
The bigger brother, the A100 was even quite a bit better. But than one did not take off like the A1 did, probably because of the noisy fan.
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I agree with Brian Cheney, fatigue has always set in with me listening to switching amps. But put the same amp on a battery supply, and the fatigue totally disappears.
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And we all thought Rclark was the real cheer-leader....
Jim
Not my fault you can't instantly recognize greatness. Dont worry about me, the amps aren't going anywhere, there will be plenty of others cheerleading.
Bruno rules! There, proper cheerleading.
Yaaaaaaaaaay scapegoat!
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Ozark:
That is why I can handle Class D in my vehicle, i.e, 12v battery power via a capacitor.
As for the time frames, the first viable amplifier circuit was the fabled Western Electric and it was initially designed ca. late 1920's and was perfected (or as close to) in the 1950's, by the likes of Marantz, McIntosh, and a few others. 50+ years later, they still perform on a world class level. So much so, that they have been reissued.
As already noted, it took about 2 decades to make SS palatable, the same may be true for Class D switching amps.
If and when Class D comes of age, it still will not be a game changer that replaces what has come before. All of the chest pounding and hubris will not change that.
Jim
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God you're short sighted. Ncore is the first to beat top of the line tubes, there will.be competitors. They will be smaller and cheaper, eventually into our pockets.
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God you're short sighted. Ncore is the first to beat top of the line tubes, there will.be competitors. They will be smaller and cheaper, eventually into our pockets.
I remember seeing a long list of SS amps it was favorably compared to...which top tube amps were the Ncore tested against besides the AtmaSpheres?
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God you're short sighted. Ncore is the first to beat top of the line tubes, there will.be competitors. They will be smaller and cheaper, eventually into our pockets.
Written by someone who has never heard one, or I will bet has even owned any tube gear to compare with. The same person who was warned not to go where the original thread went, but didn't heed that advice.
But it is all good and I hope he actually orders and pays for his own and will live happily ever after with them. In the meantime, I will be enjoying my system that doesn't need anything to get me in the happy zone.
Jim
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Not my fault you can't instantly recognize greatness. Dont worry about me, the amps aren't going anywhere, there will be plenty of others cheerleading.
Bruno rules! There, proper cheerleading.
Yaaaaaaaaaay scapegoat!
Dude, when Ncore started appearing in audiocircle topics you and I had the same number of posts. You've already padded your post count by over ~200 saying the same exact thing. Personally, I get what you're trying to say just because I've read it so many damn times...and although you occasionally move the conversation forward in some way, 90% of the time I wish we were on Facebook so I could just block your posts. Please let us know when you actually get to hear them. I am following these threads closely because I'm actually interested in the amps, and want to read actual new info...not the same thing for the 201st time, or read posts from others trying to get the conversation back on topic.
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A lot of what I posted were corrections and info, I've read ever page about them. And I'll have mine eventually.
In terms of those who listened, they say even more bombastic stuff than I ever could! Go bully them for a while. Oh wait, you can't.
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Max:
Some people just never get it, sadly.
Jim
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A lot of what I posted were corrections and info, I've read ever page about them. And I'll have mine eventually.
In terms of those who listened, they say even more bombastic stuff than I ever could! Go bully them for a while. Oh wait, you can't.
Don't lump all of us under the "bombastic stuff" umbrella. I think the majority of us have been measured in our responses and views.
George
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Hi Guys
Reading this thread with interest and the 'anti Class D's' are quoting information which is years out of date.
I had Martin Colloms sit down in my demo at the National Audio Show 11 last September and he wrote this..... http://www.acousticimagery.com/Hi Fi Critic National Audio Show Blog.pdf after listening to our power amps which use Hypex UcD400HG+HxR with SMPS400A400 psu !..................
The times, they are a changing........
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In terms of those who listened, they say even more bombastic stuff than I ever could! Go bully them for a while. Oh wait, you can't.
I've found their impressions valuable and I greatly appreciated them. I am not trying to bully you...in fact, I feel like you're the bully here. I just want info about the amps. When you provide it, I am appreciative. When you don't, I am not appreciative. I am checking these threads often and have found that I am getting annoyed to find threads continually getting off topic.
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Don't lump all of us under the "bombastic stuff" umbrella. I think the majority of us have been measured in our responses and views.
George
Thank you George, well said.
There are plenty of great amps, which haven't suddenly gotten worse because NCore came on the scene. Some may be better, some not so much. Lots of choices and all of those good amps will endure and continue to please many.
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The 'digital' amps that have been the most satisfying in my place are Tripaths. I've heard a couple of hypex amps and was not particularly impressed, but they didn't sound bad to me either. I've heard much worse ss and tube designs. Of course with T amps you are limited speaker wise etc. There have been a number of amp shootouts wherein the little T amps were standouts.
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Ozark Tom and Medium Jim -
You fellers seem to know a lot about amplifier design. Where have you plied your trade? I'm wondering if I've ever owned any of your designs.
Both of you seem willing to prattle on indefinitely about how to improve upon an amplifier which is unanimously (among those who have heard it) as good as any they have heard prior. And, if I understand your position correctly, neither of you have ever heard. When I put it that way it makes you look kinda stupid, huh?
Don't be the guy who goes to a gourmet restaurant and starts pouring spices and seasonings all over your food before you even taste it. If you are going to do that, save your money and go to McDonalds.
Incidentally, guys, maybe you could enlighten us as to what advantages accrue from the use of battery power? My understanding has always been that DC is quieter than AC. However, I have owned battery powered equipment from Jeff Rowland and Red Wine Audio and neither was as quiet as the NC400. So, if quiet is not the goal, why else would you insist upon batteries?
I'm sorry if I seem to be squatting on you guys but your unsupported insistence that you know better than Bruno is getting very old. If you can do better, go ahead. Otherwise take a seat in the back and just listen and learn.
There really isn't much to say about how the NC400 performs. You've read that it's dead silent, that it is very dynamic and pleasant and that it performs remarkably well at very low listening levels. The amps to which it has been compared is an estimable list including OTL tube amps and monster Class A mono blocks. The selling price is delightfully small for performance levels being reported.
In fact, I believe that you would jump at the chance to have your Adcom turned into a Clayton for just $2000. If so, just sell the Adcom and buy the NC400.
Why in the heck are so many of you so resistant? There are about 10 of us now who have experienced these and loved them. George raised a minor caveat but bought them anyway. The rest of us have seen no cause for reservation.
If, in fact, you simply aren't interested in these, why continue to exercise your god given right to say so. Just leave it to those who care. They are doing you no harm and you have heard no hyperbole. All is well.
And for the record I don't care if you power your amps with diesel.
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Battery power is preferable to me as well.
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Battery power is preferable to me as well.
I imagine someone will create a suitable battery power device to power an NCore. Weather or not it goes into production will remain to be seen, but I am definitely curious about a comparison between a properly implemented battery supply and the Hypex one.
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I imagine someone will create a suitable battery power device to power an NCore. Weather or not it goes into production will remain to be seen, but I am definitely curious about a comparison between a properly implemented battery supply and the Hypex one.
I think your probably right, the ball has just started rolling, really.
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I think your probably right, the ball has just started rolling, really.
I am glad for that. I probably won't be able to afford NCores for another few months at the earliest, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how people assemble them and tinker with power supplies in the mean time. I'd really like to assemble them once and leave them alone while knowing I got them to look and perform as well as possible.
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I have read roughly 20 glowing reports from people that have actually listened to the ncores. In fact, I have yet to read a single one that was less than glowing....not even one that was lukewarm. That tells me there is substance here....
All I have said is have an open mind and don't be judgmental simply because of past experiences with class d technology. Like it or not, there are more class d amps produced today than any other type. One can hardly call the technology new....Some people can't break old habits....
One always has the simple choice to listen before forming opinions. Or just simply move over and get out of the way. No one is forcing anyone to follow this thread....
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It is not about being resistant or otherwise. It is more about hearing them in person. Point of reference, I go to my local high-end stereo store who has maybe 15 makers of amplification, all sound great. Of the 50 people who actually buy an amp from them, do you think they will all buy the same amp?
I will never buy an amp without hearing it or a representative one, no matter how many rave reviews it gets. The rave reviews will however, make me want to hear one in person.
I'm sure at some point, I will hear a Mola Mola, Bruno's finished product and will know if it is for me or not. To wit, I do have an open mind and too respect the opinions of those who have actually heard them, but not the opinions of those who haven't and are raving about them incessantly which deflects from those who have. Do I make myself clear?
Jim
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Don't lump all of us under the "bombastic stuff" umbrella. I think the majority of us have been measured in our responses and views.
George
I wasn't speaking of you, of course.
Some others, after listening, have said some pretty bold stuff, which tends to make sense with everything known so far.
And by bombastic I mean, wow, anything said about a $1500 set of amps that takes on and matches what's been shown, just that fact alone is pretty heady stuff.
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Rclark:
Your opinion about them means nothing and only diffuses from those who actually have heard them. Trust me, we all can read for ourselves what others are saying and what Bruno has for that matter. Then you try to bully anyone who dares to post an opposing point of view. Worse yet, you become belligerent and insulting. Not very civil.
Jim
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Did you know if you listen to Ncore and go back to other amps your ears will explode!!
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I wasn't speaking of you, of course.
Some others, after listening, have said some pretty bold stuff, which tends to make sense with everything known so far.
And by bombastic I mean, wow, anything said about a $1500 set of amps that takes on and matches what's been shown, just that fact alone is pretty heady stuff.
Definition of 'Bombastic' : pompous, grandiloquent.
synonyms: balderdash, big talking, flowery, full of hot air, inflated, overblown, loud-mouthed.
Just to clear up any misunderstandings.
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Rclark:
Your opinion about them means nothing and only diffuses from those who actually have heard them. Trust me, we all can read for ourselves what others are saying and what Bruno has for that matter. Then you try to bully anyone who dares to post an opposing point of view. Worse yet, you become belligerent and insulting. Not very civil.
Jim
That is an outright lie.
I am allowed to post corrections, FACTS.
I think you're the belligerent one, coming into the topic with hardened ignorance, telling everyone how it is, and how it will never be.
Goes both ways, uh in case you weren't aware.
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Rclark: what do you think makes Ncore topology better the ICE?
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Ok, friends and gerbils, I guess I'll have to up my bet to 100 posts. Nice work. This could have been a good topic. Why do you make it so hard on volunteer moderators?
Tick tick tick ...
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Rclark: what do you think makes Ncore topology better the ICE?
iCE is a bit long in the tooth right? I've also never seen anyone compare ICE to the best of the best and come out favorably every time. Also, comparisons to Ncore have already been made in Ncore's favor, with emphasis.
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ICE has evolved. What do YOU think are the important differences between ICE and NSnore? Why is it a "game changer"?
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I dont have an opinion on ICE power but also my interest was never piqued. I did research them but found plenty of people who didnt like them. If they've evolved, awesome. There will be competitors, but Ncore is the first to beat the best, it's a tipping point.
For further info, please see the 350 page and growing ncore thread, plenty of comparisons between the two.
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That is an outright lie.
I am allowed to post corrections, FACTS.
I think you're the belligerent one, coming into the topic with hardened ignorance, telling everyone how it is, and how it will never be.
Goes both ways, uh in case you weren't aware.
I think you just confirmed what I posted. Btw, there is a growing throng that is tired of your prattlings regarding Ncores. Please let those with 1st hand experience with them tell us about them.
Jim
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I've found their impressions valuable and I greatly appreciated them. I am not trying to bully you...in fact, I feel like you're the bully here. I just want info about the amps. When you provide it, I am appreciative. When you don't, I am not appreciative. I am checking these threads often and have found that I am getting annoyed to find threads continually getting off topic.
We need an "ignore" function on this site so people can politely choose to ignore complete idiots like RClark. I've been a member of this site for a long time but don't recall anyone as irritating as RClark.
We need an ignore feature on this site so people can tune that clown out. Enthusiasm is one thing but he seems to combine it with a healthy dose of douche-baggery. That's a bad combo...like laxitaves and sleeping pills.
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I have read roughly 20 glowing reports from people that have actually listened to the ncores. In fact, I have yet to read a single one that was less than glowing....not even one that was lukewarm. That tells me there is substance here....
All I have said is have an open mind and don't be judgmental simply because of past experiences with class d technology. Like it or not, there are more class d amps produced today than any other type. One can hardly call the technology new....Some people can't break old habits....
One always has the simple choice to listen before forming opinions. Or just simply move over and get out of the way. No one is forcing anyone to follow this thread....
Have you heard them?
I didn't know this was a Ncore thread also.
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This thread is starting to go off the rails.
The discussion is starting to remind me of the Bob Carver hype when he claimed to emulate expensive tube amps from a solid state unit by loading the power supply (switching rails). While it was a neat engineering trick, it certainly did not sound like a tube amp.
This seems to be similar. While I’m sure the Ncore amps sound pretty good, at the end of the day, it’s still a switching amp (that’s how it works). Still have not seen any explanations on how the amp overcomes the physics of switching artifacts. I suspect that it has not overcome the switching artifacts entirely, and (in fact) may not have overcome them.
As earlier stated, it took 20 to 30 years to get conventional solid state amps to the point they were considered on a par with the best tube amps. People still argue about Class A vs. Class AB, where there is almost no switching compared to a switching amp, and no artifacts to deal with.
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This thread is starting to go off the rails.
The discussion is starting to remind me of the Bob Carver hype when he claimed to emulate expensive tube amps from a solid state unit by loading the power supply (switching rails). While it was a neat engineering trick, it certainly did not sound like a tube amp.
This seems to be similar. While I’m sure the Ncore amps sound pretty good, at the end of the day, it’s still a switching amp (that’s how it works). Still have not seen any explanations on how the amp overcomes the physics of switching artifacts. I suspect that it has not overcome the switching artifacts entirely, and (in fact) may not have overcome them.
As earlier stated, it took 20 to 30 years to get conventional solid state amps to the point they were considered on a par with the best tube amps. People still argue about Class A vs. Class AB, where there is almost no switching compared to a switching amp, and no artifacts to deal with.
I chose my AB chipamp solely because of it's low crossover distortion and it sounds fantastic on my efficient speakers. Class A is not perfect, no amplifier class is...that's why there are options. Money is the biggest factor in design evolution. Class D, because of it's low cost and efficient energy use, will evolve as far as the technology will allow because it has far more uses.
Just because it sounded poor in a lot of previous implementations does not mean it could not improve. Digital Audio Company and Class D (isn't that the company name?) have been putting out great sounding amplifiers for a couple of years now. The DAC Cherry amps have received very favorable reviews, based on that, why can't you believe NCore could sound even better? It might not, I don't know. There's no reason to believe it has to be worse.
There are already a couple of fanboys it seems, but don't be in the opposite boat just because. I'm intrigued by the NCore amps, but around $2,000 for a somewhat-DIY amplifier is sort of pricey.
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I chose my AB chipamp solely because of it's low crossover distortion and it sounds fantastic on my efficient speakers. Class A is not perfect, no amplifier class is...that's why there are options. Money is the biggest factor in design evolution. Class D, because of it's low cost and efficient energy use, will evolve as far as the technology will allow because it has far more uses.
Just because it sounded poor in a lot of previous implementations does not mean it could not improve. Digital Audio Company and Class D (isn't that the company name?) have been putting out great sounding amplifiers for a couple of years now. The DAC Cherry amps have received very favorable reviews, based on that, why can't you believe NCore could sound even better? It might not, I don't know. There's no reason to believe it has to be worse.
There are already a couple of fanboys it seems, but don't be in the opposite boat just because. I'm intrigued by the NCore amps, but around $2,000 for a somewhat-DIY amplifier is sort of pricey.
I am skeptical about class D amps for a number of reasons:
1. The physics involved in its principal of operation ensures that there a lot of artifacts that need to be overcome. There is quite a bit of data out there about their limitations, but nothing of substance about how these various artifacts have been addressed/overcome.
2. Efficient power has nothing to do with actual sound reproduction. Personally, could care less about efficient amplification. All I care about is how it sounds. To date, Class A amps (from a well respected designer who knows what they are doing) provides the best sound, with the least amount of artifacts. Granted, the speakers need to support the amp’s output power. Certainly, many of the fine speakers out there that have lower SPL levels will only sound good with higher power.
3. I’ve listened to a lot of switching amps, and yes, they are incrementally are improving, Having said that, they are not yet (to me) nearly as accurate or clear sounding as the best conventional solid state or tube amps. The speakers used play into how much of a difference one would pick up.
So, as with anything, agree that one needs to keep an open mind. However, to date, switching amps have not been able overcome their limitations, which are more significant then more conventional amps. There certainly is nothing posted by the AES stating how this is achieved.
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Have you heard the Class D kits or the DAC amps yet? I don't believe the kits are supposed to sound as good as great Class A amps, but it seems they perform at a tremendous level for the dollar/watt ratio.
I've read some good things in the past about switching amps that produced good sound when a lot of attention was paid to the power supply. But since most of these amps are fairly cheap, the power supplies are not well executed.
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There will be competitors, but Ncore is the first to beat the best, it's a tipping point.
You got to be kidding me. Did you really write that BEFORE trying the amps? Have you placed an order? What is the best?
I bet these amps will go great with Emerald Physics speakers. :lol:
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Have you heard the Class D kits or the DAC amps yet? I don't believe the kits are supposed to sound as good as great Class A amps, but it seems they perform at a tremendous level for the dollar/watt ratio.
I've read some good things in the past about switching amps that produced good sound when a lot of attention was paid to the power supply. But since most of these amps are fairly cheap, the power supplies are not well executed.
I’ve heard quite a few iterations of class D amps in various forms.
Agree with you about power supplies. A linear power supply for switching amps certainly does help. Also agree about the dollars/watt. If one has low SPL speakers, then yes, switching amps do indeed provide good power at a reasonable price.
I’ll be the first to admit I’m a bit biased toward Class A amps. I own a few amps, and they are all Class A units. (However, I am making a pair of 1625 monoblocks that will be class AB).
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I am skeptical about class D amps for a number of reasons:
1. The physics involved in its principal of operation ensures that there a lot of artifacts that need to be overcome. There is quite a bit of data out there about their limitations, but nothing of substance about how these various artifacts have been addressed/overcome.
2. Efficient power has nothing to do with actual sound reproduction. Personally, could care less about efficient amplification. All I care about is how it sounds. To date, Class A amps (from a well respected designer who knows what they are doing) provides the best sound, with the least amount of artifacts. Granted, the speakers need to support the amp’s output power. Certainly, many of the fine speakers out there that have lower SPL levels will only sound good with higher power.
3. I’ve listened to a lot of switching amps, and yes, they are incrementally are improving, Having said that, they are not yet (to me) nearly as accurate or clear sounding as the best conventional solid state or tube amps. The speakers used play into how much of a difference one would pick up.
So, as with anything, agree that one needs to keep an open mind. However, to date, switching amps have not been able overcome their limitations, which are more significant then more conventional amps. There certainly is nothing posted by the AES stating how this is achieved.
.....A linear power supply for switching amps certainly does help.
What are "artifacts"?
Have you looked at the distortion levels and other specs of the Ncore? Have you compared them to other highly regarded amps? Have you read what people with many different high end amps are reporting? Have you listened to Ncore?
If not, you have no basis to judge. Your negativity is based on nothing more than past experience and without any first hand knowledge of the Ncore product, you are no different than the "cheerleaders", you are just sitting on the other side of the field....
I don't think anyone has a problem with someone not liking a particular product, for whatever reason, as long as it is based on something other than preconceptions, prejudices, and/or biases.
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Go back and re-read the previous links posted, and you should be able to answer your question.
If you understand how switching amps work, then you would not be asking about artifacts.
Again, no information posted about how all the shortfalls with switching amps were addressed.
Here is a unbiased assessment of switching amps (good and bad)
http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-041808-145643/unrestricted/report.pdf (http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-041808-145643/unrestricted/report.pdf)
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Cab:
Do you own a pair of Ncores? A simple Y/N response is all that is required.
Jim
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Cab:
Question, do you own a pair of Ncores? This only requires a yes or no response.
Jim
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Why due you ask?
I have owned or heard probably every class d amp that Bruno Putzeys has designed, from the SODA to the Ncore. The SODA was a pre-UCD design from his days at Phillips. It was never, as far as I know, released commercially. He sent me the gerber files and I had boards printed and built them.
I have owned or heard Spectron, Tripath, Icepower, and a few others I do not recall.
I have some experience with class d. I have also owned many conventional amps.
Have I made myself clear?
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Cab:
So where is your review of them and what did you compare them to out of curiosity? Why the anger to anyone who doesn't share your favoritism for them? You say those who don't agree with you are closed minded, how so?
I could go on and on about my amps and how after 50 years, still are considered by many to be one of the best amps in the world, at any price, but I would just bore the shat out of everyone.
Jim
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Go back and re-read the previous links posted, and you should be able to answer your question.
If you understand how switching amps work, then you would not be asking about artifacts.
Again, no information posted about how all the shortfalls with switching amps were addressed.
I have read the article. It mentions nothing about artifacts. I assume you are talking about the carrier residual that is filtered out....
We can talk about the shortcomings of tube amps, solid state, class a, class b, class a/b, etc. There is no perfect amplifier. All classes have shortcomings. A good designer knows how to work around them. Ncore has a several new and novel approaches and again, based on the specs and reviews, it competes with the rest.
If you wish to discuss the particular shortcomings of the Ncore, please expound on all the shortfalls. Then perhaps they can be addressed.
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Again, read the previous links. There is NO inforamtion on how Ncore works around the the issues that apply to ALL switching amps.
A few guys saying they like what they here is OK, but I'll find you just as many who think any switching amp sounds mid fi.
http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~s0571365/Files/Articles/ISCAS06/docs/papers/2621.pdf (http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~s0571365/Files/Articles/ISCAS06/docs/papers/2621.pdf)
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Here is a unbiased assessment of switching amps (good and bad)
http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-041808-145643/unrestricted/report.pdf (http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-041808-145643/unrestricted/report.pdf)
Here are the three disadvantages from the cited source of class d audio amps:
1. They need an output filter that adds complexity, cost, and weight.
No mention of sound quality issues there. The same can be said of heat sinks in class a amps.
2. Increased complexity of design.
Yes, you need to know what you are doing. There are small number of people in the world that can design and implement a high quality class d amp. Bruno Putzeys is perhaps the premiere class d designer in the world. Just because they are difficult to implement well doesn't mean someone hasn't figured out how to do it....
Again, no mention of inherent sound quality issues.
3. Quote: "historically, distortion has been a major problem....Advances in technology have allowed for faster modulation techniques, however, which can reduce THD to fractions of a percentage in Class D audio amplifiers."
I refer you to the specs of the Ncore. Then tell me which has lower levels of distortion- the Ncore or your class a amp...
Again, nothing here that says there is any inherent flaw that prevents the Ncore from performing at the highest of levels....
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I have owned several class d amps, all of them using ICE modules. For the money (used) I thought they were okay, and I did appreciate the green factor. No longer listening to any of them although I still own one of the cheap units using a single 125asx2 ICE module. I like the size of the amp. It works great with an ipod on the input feeding a small pair of monitors.
Also owned a Bel Canto tripath amp which was ok also.
Positive aspects include, efficiency, size and I expect reliability.
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Jim, I read his answer was "no."
I find it odd how people that haven't heard the amp are trying to sell other people on them.
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A few guys saying they like what they here is OK, but I'll find you just as many who think any switching amp sounds mid fi.
Which proves nothing more than that you know a lot of people with poor hearing....
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I think it would also be helpful if someone posted some of the current reviews/feedback on these amps. I know there are some on diyaudio, but that's too long a thread to wade through (been there, done that).
oh, there's the impression thread. never mind!
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Then you aren't very good at reading....
I am not trying to sell anyone. I do find the same old tired attitudes and hostility towards those that aren't stuck in old technologies trying though.
Class d is mid-fi, class d is for bass only, class d has yet to come of age, blah blah blah....
And I find it odd that people that haven't heard them are trying to discourage people from them....
No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If you feel more comfortable with what you are familiar with, fine. Knocking something you don't understand and/or haven't heard is no better than praising something you haven't heard. Feel free to check out of this thread any time...
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Then you aren't very good at reading....
I am not trying to sell anyone. I do find the same old tired attitudes and hostility towards those that aren't stuck in old technologies trying though.
Class d is mid-fi, class d is for bass only, class d has yet to come of age, blah blah blah....
And I find it odd that people that haven't heard them are trying to discourage people from them....
No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If you feel more comfortable with what you are familiar with, fine. Knocking something you don't understand and/or haven't heard is no better than praising something you haven't heard. Feel free to check out of this thread any time...
Cab:
I will give you this, you have some brass, as you just told the founder of the Audio Circle that he isn't good at reading and that he needs to check out of this thread....nice!
Jim
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Then you aren't very good at reading....
I am not trying to sell anyone. I do find the same old tired attitudes and hostility towards those that aren't stuck in old technologies trying though.
Class d is mid-fi, class d is for bass only, class d has yet to come of age, blah blah blah....
And I find it odd that people that haven't heard them are trying to discourage people from them....
No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If you feel more comfortable with what you are familiar with, fine. Knocking something you don't understand and/or haven't heard is no better than praising something you haven't heard. Feel free to check out of this thread any time...
LOL. So your keyboard can't type the word "yes"? Or are you just being evasive and smug. You know, we've all been on the "latest thing" merry-go-round, and at least some of us have been disappointed. I don't see how some caution is a bad thing. Few people (here anyway) have listened to them for more than a couple of days. Some of the people on the thread are being cautious and waiting to get more seat time before selling their amps; other aren't, and don't mind lying in their ads to boot. Whatever, I guess, as you say no-one is stopping you from buying and selling whatever you want.
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To those who question the price of the NC400:
I read some about these before I started asking people I knew. That's when Jason offered to send his my way after he assembled them. So, I am one of the guys who has heard them. And after I had a few days with them I was convinced that they exceeded anything I had ever heard in several ways that are meaningful and valuable to me. My only reservation at that point concerned DIY which I don't want to do. I ordered them and paid for them anyway and have since found someone to complete them for me.
Now, concerning cost, these come from the Netherlands and are priced in Euros so some of the costs involved are due to currency conversion, international shipping, funds transfer. I used the wire transfer option. It cost my $50 and took a few days.
The NC400 amplifier modules are 325 Euros each and the SMPS600 sells for 180 Euros apiece.
I paid $1351.56 for two of each. The total included all costs to my door. So, including the wire transfer fee my total outlay was just over $1400.
I think I'm the one who planted the $1900/pair figure in our conversation. Here's how I got there.
importation of parts $1400
2@ amplifier cases $ 250
assembly incl. parts $ 200
ship to and from
assembly guy $ 35
TOTAL $1885
If you can do your own assembly, you will save about $160 because you will still need IEC, binding posts, input connector. Some more money might be saved by skipping cases, building your own or scavenging. Additional savings can be had by building a stereo unit and buying only one power supply.
But the most important thing to know is that everyone who has heard these and said so has bought them and I don't know of anyone who felt the price was high. In fact, to a man, they have raved about the bargain involved.
You are being urged by me and other live witnesses to look into this opportunity. If you don't care to do so, that is your prerogative. I can't see why they wouldn't please anyone but stranger things have happened.
There is nothing to fight about, however. If someone insists on negative presumption, leave him behind where he wants to be. People who say it can't be good are right. So are people who say it's great. To each their own.
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I thought it was evident in my reply. I added further background which I thought made it clear that I am very familiar with Bruno's body of work.
Again, nothing wrong with caution. I agree there have been too many posts by those praising something they haven't heard. There have been, however, even more posts criticizing class d with the same old and tired complaints by those that have not heard the Ncore and this is no better....
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Which proves nothing more than that you know a lot of people with poor hearing....
Or that you haven't heard or experienced a good amp :duh:
Jim
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I thought it was evident in my reply. I added further background which I thought made it clear that I am very familiar with Bruno's body of work.
Again, nothing wrong with caution. I agree there have been too many posts by those praising something they haven't heard. There have been, however, even more posts criticizing class d with the same old and tired complaints by those that have not heard the Ncore and this is no better....
And you are the self professed messiah that is going to take all of of us nay sayers to the promised land of tonal nirvana 8)
Jim
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No, I learned long ago that you can't fix stupid and that ignorance, for some, is bliss....Glad you are happy with your 50 year old amp....
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cab and macro, the thing is this tone of "buy it now or lose out forever." Will there never be another Class D amp designed? Will the same quality not be available in future for less $$?
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And you are the self professed messiah that is going to take all of of us nay sayers to the promised land of tonal nirvana.....
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cab and macro, the thing is this tone of "buy it now or lose out forever." Will there never be another Class D amp designed? Will the same quality not be available in future for less $$?
Well it IS 2012...
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Good lord, we have rule banning tube vs solid state debates in this circle. Are we going to need a similar rule concerning class d? I hope not. Perhaps you all can just agree to disagree and go back to listening to music on the amp of your choice. Sheesh.
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cab and macro, the thing is this tone of "buy it now or lose out forever." Will there never be another Class D amp designed? Will the same quality not be available in future for less $$?
I am not sure where you are getting the "buy it now or lose out forever" vibe....not something I have picked up on anywhere....I would say from the reviews it is more of a "buy it now because it everything kicks everything else's ass" tone....
As said earlier, designing a state of the art class d amp is very difficult. The large number of mediocre class d amps is proof of this...There aren't many people with the knowledge and talent of Bruno Putzeys and we are fortunate that he has a soft spot for the DIY crowd or we would have to pay many times the NC400 cost to get this technology. At some point another design of equal or better quality will come along (probably from Bruno) but there are no guarantees it will be here anytime soon, and at a better price point.
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Well it IS 2012...
:lol:
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No, I learned long ago that you can't fix stupid and that ignorance, for some, is bliss....Glad you are happy with your 50 year old amp....
Amps, mine are Marantz model 9's. Mine are only 15 years old as they are the Limited Edition reissues that sold out immediately. I haven't found any other Amps that will hold a candle to them at any price. Some things just can't be improved upon.
Your lack of character is manifesting itself and will not win you any friends around here. Maybe it is you who needs to check out or earn a time out.
Jim
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And you are the self professed messiah that is going to take all of of us nay sayers to the promised land of tonal nirvana.....
Plagerism, nice.
Jim
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This thread is for Q&A concerning Hypex NCore. It says so right at the top of the page. There have been questions and confusion about ordering and pricing of the NC400 kit so, in my last post, I related my own experience concerning those matters.
The title of the thread seems to imply that it is intended to benefit those who have an interest in this product and would like to know more about it. I can't see any constructive reason for anyone who isn't interested in these amplifiers to intrude.
Likewise, it seems natural and appropriate that parties who are qualified to answer these questions and choose to do so would be enthusiastic. Why should that bother uninterested parties?
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This thread is starting to go off the rails.
The discussion is starting to remind me of the Bob Carver hype when he claimed to emulate expensive tube amps from a solid state unit by loading the power supply (switching rails). While it was a neat engineering trick, it certainly did not sound like a tube amp.
This seems to be similar. While I’m sure the Ncore amps sound pretty good, at the end of the day, it’s still a switching amp (that’s how it works). Still have not seen any explanations on how the amp overcomes the physics of switching artifacts. I suspect that it has not overcome the switching artifacts entirely, and (in fact) may not have overcome them.
As earlier stated, it took 20 to 30 years to get conventional solid state amps to the point they were considered on a par with the best tube amps. People still argue about Class A vs. Class AB, where there is almost no switching compared to a switching amp, and no artifacts to deal with.
The first switching amps I heard were the Sony and Infinity, that was about 35 years ago.....
So the technology has had time to mature. Just as Solid State matured.
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I refer you to the specs of the Ncore.
Where can I find the distortion curves?
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Where can I find the distortion curves?
They're in this:
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
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Amps, mine are Marantz model 9's. Mine are only 15 years old as they are the Limited Edition reissues that sold out immediately. I haven't found any other Amps that will hold a candle to them at any price. Some things just can't be improved upon.
Your lack of character is manifesting itself and will not win you any friends around here. Maybe it is you who needs to check out or earn a time out.
Jim
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you....
This thread is for Hypex Ncore Q&A. You haven't heard them, so you can't answer any questions. You claim your amp can't be improved upon, and you aren't asking any constructive questions. I have to ask myself, what are you adding to this thread other than troll-like behavior?
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It's a little hard to keep track of where the posts are as they keep getting moved around. Currently this is the "Class D vs the rest" thread.
cab - take it down a notch please.
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Cab:
Wrong, this thread is titled Class D vs the rest. Again, you feel the need to be nebbish.
Jim
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"Class D versus the rest"
Please, maybe my eyes are deceiving me. Where is the word Ncore in this thread listing?
Oops, guess this is now a repeat listing.
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It's a little hard to keep track of where the posts are as they keep getting moved around. Currently this is the "Class D vs the rest" thread.
Indeed....
cab - take it down a notch please.
Would love to....as soon as the insults and trolling end....
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Well I merged a page and a half of posts from the Q&A thread as they were basically the same as what was going on in this thread. Unfortunately the title did not change when merged.
My apologies for the confusion. With the negative turn this is taking it may not be here long anyway. I suppose that's inevitable with any thread with "Versus" in the title. :cry:
I'm goin to bed, you guys are wearing me out.
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The only insults I've seen came from you, Cab. Trolling, really? I'm interested in the subject, just not all the weeding out of the posts that are redundant and self serving from those who don't even own Ncores.
If you do own a pair, then you can be a true gentleman and take the time and write a comprehensive review that compares them to other amps you own as a reference point. That is what advances and promotes this hobby or lifestyle.
Jim
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I have been around audio for 42 years, was a high-end dealer for 15. I have gone through over 200 different amps in my life, tube and SS. I won't bore anybody here with the amps that I have actually owned. Being a dealer has the advantages of owning a lot, I took a lot of trade-ins.
I listened to the reviewers on many occasion. And I was burned way too many times. So of course I am cautious. These are a few things that make me cautious about the Ncores.
1-A good sounding 20 watt amp beats a great sounding 200 watt amp everytime. I have never owned a 200 watt amp that I would ever keep.
2-I have only heard one good sounding Class D amp, and that one runs on batteries. It is only 32 watts. Without the batteries, I would not listen to it. The switching power supply ruins it for me.
3-The Ncores are 200 watt amps and do not run on batteries. They run off of switching power supplies.
Therefore, I would never buy the Ncores unless I heard them first. I like to try stuff on before I buy. If the shoe fits, I will buy it.
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The only insults I've seen came from you, Cab. Trolling, really? I'm interested in the subject, just not all the weeding out of the posts that are redundant and self serving from those who don't even own Ncores.
Maybe you need to increase the font size in your browser...Here are a few of your insults from this page alone that I had no trouble seeing:
"Your lack of character"
"nebbish"
"self professed messiah"
If you do own a pair, then you can be a true gentleman and take the time and write a comprehensive review that compares them to other amps you own as a reference point. That is what advances and promotes this hobby or lifestyle.
Jim
I have nothing to add that others haven't already stated time and again. Do some research. Maybe then you will get a pair....
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For those interested in Class D technology may I recommend Bob Cordell's book: "Designing Audio Power Amplifiers" . In part 6 of the book he discussed the issues around designing Class D amps, power supplies for Class D amps and distortion and distortion measurement for Calss D,and the solutions to these problems.
Bob does note that recently there have been large gains in the quality of Class D amps. The overview is ~50 pages. Bob has mentioned he will expand this section in future editions of his book. Bob does reference some of Bruno's papers in his book.
BTW the book is a must have fro those interested in how power amps work and how to design good amps. I would wager if you got the schematic for any 'audiophile' class a or ab amp you will see the topology explained in this book.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/007164024X/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_g14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0EP1A6MJ1NTW77VQW026&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
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Therefore, I would never buy the Ncores unless I heard them first. I like to try stuff on before I buy. If the shoe fits, I will buy it.
So try them....
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So try them....
So when are you going to send me yours? I have a hundred dollar bill waiting for you.
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Thanks but mine aren't going anywhere.....
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Thanks but mine aren't going anywhere.....
Then why are you so adamant against the cautious here if you are not willing to share?
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Cab:
People can read for themselves who insulted who and also read between the lines. Your attempt at deflection is obvious. But it is all good.
Jim
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Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you....
This thread is for Hypex Ncore Q&A. You haven't heard them, so you can't answer any questions. You claim your amp can't be improved upon, and you aren't asking any constructive questions. I have to ask myself, what are you adding to this thread other than troll-like behavior?
You know the biggest trolls on this board always end up being the ones that don't include a gallery
or a systems make up in their profile. How about you and Rclark ante-up a bit and type what you have. You have taken the liberty to indulge us with your opinion with really no commitment. Either that or stfu for a change.
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Then why are you so adamant against the cautious here if you are not willing to share?
Show me where I have said there was anything wrong with being cautious...
Indeed, it is caution that keeps them where they are....
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You know the biggest trolls on this board always end up being the ones that don't include a gallery
or a systems make up in their profile. How about you and Rclark ante-up a bit and type what you have. You have taken the liberty to indulge us with your opinion with really no commitment. Either that or stfu for a change.
Try as I might, I can't find the Ncore related question or answer in your post....unless you have something constructive to add on topic to this thread perhaps you ought to take your own advice and stfu.
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Show me where I have said there was anything wrong with being cautious...
Indeed, it is caution that keeps them where they are....
Then where is your review? Surely you have written one somewhere on the net.
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I would like to add an additional factor into the Class D equation.
That is voicing.
Spectron, one of the longest players, maybe even the longest class D amp manufacturer offer two different "voicings".
They say on their website that you can have a "standard" amp, one with a tube like voicing (called the "signature upgrade"), or some combination thereof.
It almost makes me wonder whether if some people don't like the voicings rather than the technology.
Now there is something to think about!!!!
Bruce
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Not yet.....but maybe soon.....I'll give you the Cliff Notes version: I like them. A lot. Please point me to your on line amp reviews. Someone who has owned over 200 amps must have written a lot of them....
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I have been around audio for 42 years, was a high-end dealer for 15. I have gone through over 200 different amps in my life, tube and SS. I won't bore anybody here with the amps that I have actually owned. Being a dealer has the advantages of owning a lot, I took a lot of trade-ins.
I listened to the reviewers on many occasion. And I was burned way too many times. So of course I am cautious. These are a few things that make me cautious about the Ncores.
1-A good sounding 20 watt amp beats a great sounding 200 watt amp everytime. I have never owned a 200 watt amp that I would ever keep.
2-I have only heard one good sounding Class D amp, and that one runs on batteries. It is only 32 watts. Without the batteries, I would not listen to it. The switching power supply ruins it for me.
3-The Ncores are 200 watt amps and do not run on batteries. They run off of switching power supplies.
Therefore, I would never buy the Ncores unless I heard them first. I like to try stuff on before I buy. If the shoe fits, I will buy it.
Very reasonable logic all around here OzarkTom.
And all leading to the big question surrounding ncores: Are they game changers?
In this case, does it turn these prior experiences you've had on their head? Quite the achievement if they do, no doubt. Particularly at their price point and considering conventional amp wisdom (whether from the Class A SS point of view, the linear power supply point of view, or the "gotta have tubes" point of view). Impressive is all the endorsements from people who previously found themselves in each of these camps. Not just those from only one or two of these camps.
I do hope you can hear the ncores. And I will do my best to provide some of the answers you are looking for during my time on the tour.
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Can we please move beyond the insults and move the discussion back to where AC is at its strongest: being a supportive and helpful forum of people genuinely wanting to share their opinions and expertise in order to help others on their audio journeys. That is the glory of sites like this (and this site in particular IME). Let's not lose sight of this in a frenzied defense of personal preferences.
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I would like to add an additional factor into the Class D equation.
That is voicing.
Spectron, one of the longest players, maybe even the longest class D amp manufacturer offer two different "voicings".
They say on their website that you can have a "standard" amp, one with a tube like voicing (called the "signature upgrade"), or some combination thereof.
It almost makes me wonder whether if some people don't like the voicings rather than the technology.
Now there is something to think about!!!!
Bruce
Many people like certain types of harmonic distortion, the type tube amps are known to introduce. I have a Spectron Musician II I bought from John at Spectron some years ago. It has a rather neutral sound that has been called sterile. John is no dummy-add some even order distortion and voila, a little tube magic......
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@ Werd, I show my stuff all the time! I just haven't made a gallery because it's not done-done.
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Hi John
Would you care to elaborate a little on what you think of your Spectron?
Strenghts?
Weaknesses?
Happy with the purchase?
Wouod you prefer the signature upgrad.
Just wondering about one for my next upgrade.
By the way I would be using it with full range electrostats.
Appreciate any input.
Many thanks.
Bruce
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Sorry Cab, I called you John!
Need to tighten the bolts that hold my head on!!
Don't know what got into me.
Anyway I would appreciate your thoughts.
Bruce
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Hi John
Would you care to elaborate a little on what you think of your Spectron?
Strenghts?
Weaknesses?
Happy with the purchase?
Wouod you prefer the signature upgrad.
Just wondering about one for my next upgrade.
By the way I would be using it with full range electrostats.
Appreciate any input.
Many thanks.
Bruce
The Spectron Musician II has loads of power, runs cool, with little sound of its own, which is in my opinion what an amp should sound like. I can't comment on the Musician III as I have never heard one. I was happy with the Spectron until I heard the Ncore.
I will be selling the Spectron.
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Impressive is all the endorsements from people who previously found themselves in each of these camps. Not just those from only one or two of these camps.
The endorcements are impressive. Before the net, the only info all of us dealers had to rely on was the review mags. It is funny how they all agreed that Krell was so great, a total game changer. What a disappointment that company turned out to be.
But I had customers that had to have it no matter what. They had to have it to impress their friends and fellow co-workers.
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They're in this:
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
Thanks! Very informative!
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Amps, mine are Marantz model 9's. Mine are only 15 years old as they are the Limited Edition reissues that sold out immediately. I haven't found any other Amps that will hold a candle to them at any price. Some things just can't be improved upon.
Your lack of character is manifesting itself and will not win you any friends around here. Maybe it is you who needs to check out or earn a time out.
Jim
Jim, I would ask you not to speak on my behalf. I find your attitude very annoying and self righteous and not representative of mine.
"Some things cannot be improved upon", indeed!
By contrast with yours, especially, I find Cab's posts rational, measured and to the point. He obviously has some experience, too, but this is yet another detail that seems to have escaped your attention.
Excuse me for being so blunt but I think you richly deserve it.
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Hi Guys
Reading this thread with interest and the 'anti Class D's' are quoting information which is years out of date.
I had Martin Colloms sit down in my demo at the National Audio Show 11 last September and he wrote this..... http://www.acousticimagery.com/Hi Fi Critic National Audio Show Blog.pdf after listening to our power amps which use Hypex UcD400HG+HxR with SMPS400A400 psu !..................
The times, they are a changing........
Sorry all
The link that I posted doesn't seem to work.
Here it is again and the page I was referring to is page 19 almost at the bottom of the article.
http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/nas11.pdf
If you read this small acknowledgement that Class D may have some merit then also note that Mr Colloms thinks that Bruno Putzeys developed the Tripath Amps which isn't true..........!
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Pfft...Ncore. I'm Classdaudio.com 4 life, son! Granted we're still waiting for Tom to get some actual current info up on his website, but hey, some of us are okay wit 1/3 the awesomeness for 1/3 the price.
CDA4L Wut Wuut!!!
or woot woot.com!! They have the Dyson bladeless fan for $100, but I digress...
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Which proves nothing more than that you know a lot of people with poor hearing....
That easily can go with switching amp supportes as well...your post is not logical...nor accurate
They simply prefer music from an amp that is NOT switching states thousands of times a second...having to filter out all kinds of non acoustic artifacts from the signal.
As an example, a class A amp from Pass Labs does a much cleaner job of reproducing in incoming music signal than any switching amp. No data on HOW the Ncore switching amp has overcome it operational limitaions has yet been posted.
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Pfft...Ncore. I'm Classdaudio.com 4 life, son! Granted we're still waiting for Tom to get some actual current info up on his website, but hey, some of us are okay wit 1/3 the awesomeness for 1/3 the price.
CDA4L Wut Wuut!!!
or woot woot.com!! They have the Dyson bladeless fan for $100, but I digress...
And the vacuum for $249.95 on woot.vip...
What is the skinny on the ClassD Audio stuff? Haven't seen as much about it on the web lately. They are interesting to me for a couple of reasons, availability and price being the most prominent.
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And the vacuum for $249.95 on woot.vip...
What is the skinny on the ClassD Audio stuff? Haven't seen as much about it on the web lately. They are interesting to me for a couple of reasons, availability and price being the most prominent.
The thread on it here still has activity: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.msg1083182#new
Others now make IRS2092 amp modules as well. Connexelectronic and L15/20/25D amps that you can get on ebay, that I've looked into.
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For what it is worth for years now we have been very happy with our custom 211 monoblocks. Using Pipedreams a match in heaven.
Previous to that Maggie 3As and Audio Research, several SS amps with the Maggies. Lived with Class "A" SS and tubed, push pull and other top designs.
Recently had the experience of hearing the Arion HS 500 hybrid class "D" mono blocks, rated at 500W/ch into 8ohm and 1000W/ch into 4 ohm. No off the shelf B&O module or power supply. All made in house. The Pipedreams and Maggies have never sounded better to us. These amps have changed the game. So much so we decided to apply for a dealership.
The key to great sound with class "D" is the power supply. Switching power supplies can have issues. The constant switching can make music sound choppy or mechanical. The key is to design a power supply that handles the switching to store the signal and not have the effect of switching. How it is done I'm clueless however the Arions have accomplished that. I believe Levinson has a patent to accomplish this. Have not heard the Levinsons so no comment.
Every technology has it merrits and faults. It is a trade off. However IMO times are a chagin so keep open eyes and judge for yourself. Couldn't be easier then that. After hearing the Tripath and other inexpensive design efforts we wrote off Class "D" not now. The Cherries had impressed us so the journey began again a modified Spectron as well through Salks.
The N-Cores appear to have merrit curious to hear a built one, again very promising for the DIY crowd. One for the Gipper hey.
This is not meant to be an Ad if perceived that way please remove.
charles
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So Charles, how did that party go at Jay's house last night?
How did Jays system sound?
Two-channel audio: modified B &W Matrix 802 speakers, McIntosh MC2205 ss amp, Classe DR25 amp (250 wpc), Audio Research LS7 preamp, Musical Fidelity Trivista 21 DAC, Toshiba DVD player used as a transport.
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The thread on it here still has activity: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.msg1083182#new
Others now make IRS2092 amp modules as well. Connexelectronic and L15/20/25D amps that you can get on ebay, that I've looked into.
That's quite a thread!
I've seen Connexelectronic on diyaudio.com, do they have a good reputation?
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I've seen Connexelectronic on diyaudio.com, do they have a good reputation?
The products seem to, although some patience on delivery times seems required. That's OK with me. I do need to order an SMPS from there so I guess I'll find out. Still working on the design plans wrt amps.
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That easily can go with switching amp supportes as well...your post is not logical...nor accurate
They simply prefer music from an amp that is NOT switching states thousands of times a second...having to filter out all kinds of non acoustic artifacts from the signal.
As an example, a class A amp from Pass Labs does a much cleaner job of reproducing in incoming music signal than any switching amp. No data on HOW the Ncore switching amp has overcome it operational limitaions has yet been posted.
I pay much more attention to the outgoing signal....The high frequency carrier is simply filtered at the output. This is how switching artifacts are removed. Maybe reread the article you cited as it is explained therein. Filters are used in audio all the time- I assume you understand what a crossover is...this is not new and radical technology.
By the way, there have been a half dozen or more reviews comparing the Ncore from Pass users.....bye bye Pass in all cases....
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The products seem to, although some patience on delivery times seems required. That's OK with me. I do need to order an SMPS from there so I guess I'll find out. Still working on the design plans wrt amps.
From what I've culled from the various Ncore/Class D threads, the power supply is a point of contention among those debating the merits of class D. Any advice on what to look for in the power supply other then appropriate voltage rating?
For my application, I'd like something in the 250wpc into 4 ohm range, 2 monoblocks as I have matching cases already that I'd like to use.
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[
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Please look at the NC400 data sheet, page 7, and you will see that there are no missing fingers....
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[
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From what I've culled from the various Ncore/Class D threads, the power supply is a point of contention among those debating the merits of class D. Any advice on what to look for in the power supply other then appropriate voltage rating?
No, not really, as I haven't built any yet. I do think SMPS have a lot of advantages. (I suppose that is related to the general topic of this thread.)
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From what I've culled from the various Ncore/Class D threads, the power supply is a point of contention among those debating the merits of class D. Any advice on what to look for in the power supply other then appropriate voltage rating?
Design of the power supply is critical to the design of any amplifier of any class. If you mean linear versus switch-mode supplies, there can be good and bad implementations of each.
For my application, I'd like something in the 250wpc into 4 ohm range, 2 monoblocks as I have matching cases already that I'd like to use.
So you want to reduce the output of the Ncores, which make 400 watts into 4 ohms, by using a differently power supply? Unless you are up for experimenting and really know what you are doing, I don't think I'd fuss with different PS implementations. That said, you almost certainly could run the amps with lower voltages -- and I think I recall the designer discussing that issue somewhere in the DIYaudio thread. In my view, though, I don't think it makes a lot of sense unless you're up for an adventure.
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So you want to reduce the output of the Ncores
He's not talking about NCores. This isn't an NCore-specific thread...
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Design of the power supply is critical to the design of any amplifier of any class. If you mean linear versus switch-mode supplies, there can be good and bad implementations of each.
So you want to reduce the output of the Ncores, which make 400 watts into 4 ohms, by using a differently power supply? Unless you are up for experimenting and really know what you are doing, I don't think I'd fuss with different PS implementations. That said, you almost certainly could run the amps with lower voltages -- and I think I recall the designer discussing that issue somewhere in the DIYaudio thread. In my view, though, I don't think it makes a lot of sense unless you're up for an adventure.
Absolutely agree, the rest of the equipment's no good if the power supply isn't up to snuff. My comment was more directed toward the SMPS that are being used with the class D amps in general; there have been a few comments about the switching power supplies introducing artifacts noticeable if the power supply isn't designed well.
I haven't settled on a brand yet, just testing the waters right now. From perusing diyaudio.com, I'd seen the threads about the predecessor to the Ncore (UcD?). Now the Ncore stuff is blowing up here. The ClassD audio offerings have caught my eye as well. Nice to find that there are also other vendors that offer kits on Ebay and other sites.
Far as up for an adventure, not sure at this point. The first amp I built was an F5 clone, wading through the threads on diyaudio about the various output devices, configurations, etc etc I'm looking forward to something with pre populated boards and onboard Molex connectors. :D
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Strider and JohnR, my apologies for thinking Ncore... (thanks for not pummeling me)
For what it's worth, JohnR's take on Connexelectronic matches mine. I built (rather "assembled") a T2050-based amp from Hifimediy, and if they had been offering Connexelectronic power supplies when I ordered, I would have purchased one of their SMPS for the amp. For under US$200 total, I'm really happy with that little amp.
Early SMPS were a mess in audio applications, but they have been improved greatly. I used to be pretty biased to linear supplies, which I used in the ClassDaudio amp I assembled; I'm not biased that way anymore.
Absolutely agree, the rest of the equipment's no good if the power supply isn't up to snuff. My comment was more directed toward the SMPS that are being used with the class D amps in general; there have been a few comments about the switching power supplies introducing artifacts noticeable if the power supply isn't designed well.
I haven't settled on a brand yet, just testing the waters right now. From perusing diyaudio.com, I'd seen the threads about the predecessor to the Ncore (UcD?). Now the Ncore stuff is blowing up here. The ClassD audio offerings have caught my eye as well. Nice to find that there are also other vendors that offer kits on Ebay and other sites.
Far as up for an adventure, not sure at this point. The first amp I built was an F5 clone, wading through the threads on diyaudio about the various output devices, configurations, etc etc I'm looking forward to something with pre populated boards and onboard Molex connectors. :D
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That easily can go with switching amp supportes as well...your post is not logical...nor accurate
They simply prefer music from an amp that is NOT switching states thousands of times a second...having to filter out all kinds of non acoustic artifacts from the signal.
I must admit that I have a grudging admiration for those who only use their turntables and tape machines for musical reproduction, eschewing those horrible switching artifacts spilling from CD players and DACs.
As an example, a class A amp from Pass Labs does a much cleaner job of reproducing in incoming music signal than any switching amp. No data on HOW the Ncore switching amp has overcome it operational limitaions has yet been posted.
My youngest son used to march about demanding of all 'Proob It!!' But he is no longer 4 years old, and does his own research. If you'd do a search either here or on Google on 'Ncore white paper' you'd have found it. [it IS the Ncore that is the proximate cause of this cat fight] For a white paper, it seems short on hyperbole, and actually contains useful information. You could also read Bruno Putzey's AES papers. Actually, given your demonstrated technical expertise, why don't you go over to DiyAudio.com and make your demands directly to Bruno, and tell him why his published specifications (powered by switching supply) couldn't equal or better Nelson's efforts...
Personally, I've yet to hear a class D amp that I could live with, which is why I'm looking forward to hearing the Ncores.[EDIT - That being said, I couldn't live with the majority of conventional non-class D amps I've heard, either] My motivation are the comments of a single member of AC, whose system I've heard, and compared notes on components we've both heard in our own systems. Without calibrating respective perceptions, other's evaluations (and cheer leading) are largely meaningless to me.
FWIW,
Paul
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First post here...
I borrowed a Primare A34.2 class D power amp for a week in March. Connected it with XLR leads from my fairly new audiolab M-DAC using the DAC's volume control. My current system comprises of a Restek Challenger integrated driving a pair of Totem Arros. The Challenger is, IMO a very good amplifier.
The Primare immediately showed how much detail was missing from the Restek & all other amps I've heard in my system including a Classe power amp. The bass may be too dry for some tastes: the level of grip down in this region was extremely satisfactory as was the tunefulness of the bottom registers (the Arros may not have the bass that large drivers can push out but they still go quite low) & I like bone-dry bass rather than some bloom that the Restek exhibits. The treble is neither sweet nor bright but neutral - no hint of glare. The mids are astonishingly revealing - I kept looking above the speakers quite instinctively trying to imagine the position of sounds in the mix. This level of detail brought a high level of separation between instruments & their timbre. Sounds well down in ampitude could be picked out very well. In no way did this level of detail sound "chrome-plated". The dynamics were good, I was startled from time to time!
Vocals were very nice, not in one's face but with plenty of ambience as was the soundstage. One could easily tell if a classic recording was from a studio or concert hall. Pop. rock, dance & electronica sounded very satisfying but the system did reveal dreadful recording quality for what is was - dreadful. Fortunately I notice how poor the the recording is intially then just enjoy the music. Some may think my description says Analytical - I say no - I couldn't keep still which in my book equals involvement & fun.
I'm aware how fallible human perception of music & SQ can be but IMO, class D is beginning to rival class A but without the heat! I'm saving up for one. It was interesting to return to the Challenger afterwards: it sounded distorted & blurred by comparison.
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Busb, welcome to AudioCircle. Nice first post. :)
I'm not at all familiar with your Restek amp but can you run the Dac's output directly to the amp section, bypassing the Restek's pre section? I wonder if this would remove the "blurred" presentation.
I used the Primare 30.1 integrated amp for a while. Thought it had an exceptionally clean presentation.
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Hey - thanks for the warm welcome!
I'm connecting the M-DAC's phonos straight into the main inputs of the Restek. It doesn't bypass the volume control which is set to max therefore the preamp section is sort of removed from the equation.
When I say blurred - only when compared to the Primare! Every so often, I hear a product that really gels, this amp does as did a pair of Arros I heard some years ago in AudioT, Reading. Sometimes, I can even afford the products that impress so much :D
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I must admit that I have a grudging admiration for those who only use their turntables and tape machines for musical reproduction, eschewing those horrible switching artifacts spilling from CD players and DACs.
My youngest son used to march about demanding of all 'Proob It!!' But he is no longer 4 years old, and does his own research. If you'd do a search either here or on Google on 'Ncore white paper' you'd have found it. [it IS the Ncore that is the proximate cause of this cat fight] For a white paper, it seems short on hyperbole, and actually contains useful information. You could also read Bruno Putzey's AES papers. Actually, given your demonstrated technical expertise, why don't you go over to DiyAudio.com and make your demands directly to Bruno, and tell him why his published specifications (powered by switching supply) couldn't equal or better Nelson's efforts...
Personally, I've yet to hear a class D amp that I could live with, which is why I'm looking forward to hearing the Ncores.[EDIT - That being said, I couldn't live with the majority of conventional non-class D amps I've heard, either] My motivation are the comments of a single member of AC, whose system I've heard, and compared notes on components we've both heard in our own systems. Without calibrating respective perceptions, other's evaluations (and cheer leading) are largely meaningless to me.
FWIW,
Paul
Listen Mate, the four year old comment is snarky and uncalled for. The claims about Ncore being a game changer need to be backed up as to why and how limitations were addressed. So, you no longer question how or why things work? Politicians will love that attitude.
The Ncore papers are pretty straightforward, but really state nothing about overcoming limitations are listed. It just pretty much explains how it works. And, it seems to work pretty well overall.
This article explains why switching amps often do not sound as good as they measure;
http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible (http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible)
Let’s stick to facts about debating operating principals, and leave out the personal nonsense.
I do think at some point switching amps will catch up sonically with most conventional amp designs. Not sure any amp design will ever sound as good as a top notch class A setup.
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"Not sure any amp design will ever sound as good as a top notch class A setup."
Politicians will love that attitude. Nothing like being an ideologue with a closed mind.
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I'll use an analogy if I may. About five years ago, I wanted to buy a digital SLR. Working in electronics, I was interested enough to take a closer look at sensor technology so trawled the web. The technical articles at the time concluded that CCD had better dynamic range, hence lower noise than the new-fangled CMOS ones. However, Canon were beginning to use CMOS sensors that were technically inferior but were cheaper to manufacture & faster to read into memory. I re-read these articles then noticed that they were all around five years old & badly out of date. The "inferior" CMOS sensors are now used in most/all mobile phones & DSLRs including so-called professional cameras such as Nikon's new 36MP D800.
That EETimes article dates back to Aug 2005. It also goes on about class D as being digital which is plain wrong - they sample the audio band & drive the output devices to be fully on or fully off - all current or all voltage is a useful over-simplification but serves to illustrate how they are as efficient as they are. That MC article is from 2008. I suggest that class D technology has moved forward significantly since then.
Having borrowed a recently introduced Primare A34.2 power amplifier driving my nominally 4 Ohm Totem Arros for a week convinces me that class D can not only better class A/B but some day equal class A and use a lot less power into the bargain. The 150 Watt Primare was housed in a non-ventilated case & weighed 10.5kg. Time will tell how reliable this switching technology will be of course. The likes of Leema are also launching class D so I'm far from being in the minority in thinking that class D is not just suitable for "non-critical" portable devices.
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"Not sure any amp design will ever sound as good as a top notch class A setup."
Politicians will love that attitude. Nothing like being an ideologue with a closed mind.
Not a closed mind. Just based on a lot of listening and reviews of designs over the years. One can have both a firm set of beliefs and an open mind.
If someone can come with a amp that is better than a top class A, I'm all for it!
It will be hard to achieve from an engineering standpoint.
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I'll use an analogy if I may. About five years ago, I wanted to buy a digital SLR. Working in electronics, I was interested enough to take a closer look at sensor technology so trawled the web. The technical articles at the time concluded that CCD had better dynamic range, hence lower noise than the new-fangled CMOS ones. However, Canon were beginning to use CMOS sensors that were technically inferior but were cheaper to manufacture & faster to read into memory. I re-read these articles then noticed that they were all around five years old & badly out of date. The "inferior" CMOS sensors are now used in most/all mobile phones & DSLRs including so-called professional cameras such as Nikon's new 36MP D800.
That EETimes article dates back to Aug 2005. It also goes on about class D as being digital which is plain wrong - they sample the audio band & drive the output devices to be fully on or fully off - all current or all voltage is a useful over-simplification but serves to illustrate how they are as efficient as they are. That MC article is from 2008. I suggest that class D technology has moved forward significantly since then.
Having borrowed a recently introduced Primare A34.2 power amplifier driving my nominally 4 Ohm Totem Arros for a week convinces me that class D can not only better class A/B but some day equal class A and use a lot less power into the bargain. The 150 Watt Primare was housed in a non-ventilated case & weighed 10.5kg. Time will tell how reliable this switching technology will be of course. The likes of Leema are also launching class D so I'm far from being in the minority in thinking that class D is not just suitable for "non-critical" portable devices.
The principal of switching amps has not changed all that much since 2005. Yes, they have advanced, and there are several other classes of switching technologies out there since then as well. The devices used are likely faster, but the principals of operation have not.
However, (almost) all the amps involve reconstructing an input analog waveform. One of the exceptions to this was Sony. Sony had a series of digital switching amps out in the early 2000’s that took a digital input and generated a Pulse Length Modulation (PLM) created analog waveform output. Sony had both a switching and linear power supply setup. These amps actually sounded pretty good for their time.
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"Not sure any amp design will ever sound as good as a top notch class A setup."
Politicians will love that attitude. Nothing like being an ideologue with a closed mind.
Says mister 9 posts.
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....
The claims about Ncore being a game changer need to be backed up as to why and how limitations were addressed. So, you no longer question how or why things work? ....
I certainly haven't made any such pronouncements. And those who constantly harp on this or that being a 'game changer', I try to ignore. I'm currently an agnostic on switching amps, willing to be shown the light. And frankly, AC isn't the place for deep technical discussion.
The Ncore papers are pretty straightforward, but really state nothing about overcoming limitations are listed. It just pretty much explains how it works. And, it seems to work pretty well overall.
This article explains why switching amps often do not sound as good as they measure;
http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015267/Why-Class-D-Amplifiers-May-Test-Well-But-Often-Sound-Terrible
No, the article asserts, with no explanation and no references showing that poor low level linearity -
The sonic implications of a broad dynamic range become more striking with the observation that while the upper amplitude regions impart what a musical instrument is, the lower regions impart where it is. Spatial location of sound is the driving force behind the entire home theatre movement, which makes these low-level signals even more important. Here, the dynamic range of this True Fidelity amplifier extends to about 102dB.
and is a honest attempt to drum up consulting business to incorporate his
'E-Bridge Technology Provides True Fidelity Amplifier Linearity'.
While I find low level linearity an interesting metric, he simply posits this metric, and asserts its correlation to imaging and sound staging, nothing more, nothing less. My issues heretofore with switching amps [albeit quite limited] have been with their tonality and resolution, and once I hear something that passes muster in those areas, I'll listen for their imaging capabilities.
Let’s stick to facts about debating operating principals, and leave out the personal nonsense.
I've no interest in debating operating principals with someone who, like me, apparently has no truly deep understanding of those principals and issues. If you want to win personal debating points, be my guest to keep demanding 'proof'. If you want to learn something, go over to DiyAudio, and ask your questions (nicely) of Bruno Putzeys, and/or others who truly understand the issues.
Listen Mate, the four year old comment is snarky and uncalled for.
You're absolutly correct. But I think it best that I forgo this comedically perfect set-up. :wink:
Warm Regards,
Paul
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The principal of switching amps has not changed all that much since 2005. Yes, they have advanced, and there are several other classes of switching technologies out there since then as well. The devices used are likely faster, but the principals of operation have not.
Probably the semiconductor's switching latency is low enough to reduce the dead time with the latest MOSFETs
However, (almost) all the amps involve reconstructing an input analog waveform. One of the exceptions to this was Sony. Sony had a series of digital switching amps out in the early 2000’s that took a digital input and generated a Pulse Length Modulation (PLM) created analog waveform output. Sony had both a switching and linear power supply setup. These amps actually sounded pretty good for their time.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with PLM - sounds the same as PWM that I thought all class D amps use? Class D amplifiers with digital rather than analogue inputs are a different story - they have no analogue signal to apply feedback to unless a DAC is used then you might as well apply analogue to the input anyway. Did Sony drop the idea?
The most important secondary aspect of using class D has to be reliability - both in the amplifier & what could could happen to the load. Making sure that various artefacts don't modulate the mains is also important. Badly implemented switch-mode circuits can polute.
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If you want to learn something, go over to DiyAudio, and ask your questions (nicely) of Bruno Putzeys, and/or others who truly understand the issues.
Actually, I do go over to the DIY website, and have obtained some sage information from there. The DIY crowd at Pass Labs (including Mr. Pass) were very helpful with my restoration of a Threshold 400A, as well as converting a Threshold S300 to a SA/3.
Will be sure to inquire about switching amp improvents over at DIY. Still think that there is a way to go to get the best sound from them.
However, having said that, the basic principles of operation associated with Class A, Class AB, Class B, and switching amplifiers are NOT that hard to grasp. So, being able to correspond what one hears from a given amp and relate the sound as to how the amp works is a worthwhile endeavor.
The basic take away here is that there is a tradeoff between efficiency of amplifier operation and how much the signal has to undergo switching to achieve the analog waveform output. The REAL debate is how much of output signal switching performed is audible, nes pa? This is why many audio geeks prefer class A, as it does the least to harm the signal.
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I haven;t been convinced at this point that class D is any better than tripath or ICE. I think it's probably personal preference. So far, I like the tripath sound a lot. Like all amps, they work better with certain loudspeakers. I don't have one in my main system because my speakers require more current and power. The large CODA amp I use does sound better overall. Of course, that may not be true with a high efficiency speaker design. I suspect so however.
I'm sure there are Firstwatt owners that loved their amps, but moved on to accommodate changes in their speakers or preamps. I've only had one ice amp in the house and thought it hard and thin. I'll bet there are others that sound better as well as offering gobs of power.
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no delete function.
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I haven;t been convinced at this point that class D is any better than tripath or ICE. I think it's probably personal preference. So far, I like the tripath sound a lot. Like all amps, they work better with certain loudspeakers. I don't have one in my main system because my speakers require more current and power. The large CODA amp I use does sound better overall. Of course, that may not be true with a high efficiency speaker design. I suspect so however.
I'm sure there are Firstwatt owners that loved their amps, but moved on to accommodate changes in their speakers or preamps. I've only had one ice amp in the house and thought it hard and thin. I'll bet there are others that sound better as well as offering gobs of power.
Concur with your observations. BTW, tripath amps are a variation of Class D.
No doubt Class D has a lot to offer in regards to output power and efficiency. The trade off with Class D is achieving overall sound quality that rivals the better conventional amp designs. Given all the switching and filtering involved to re-generate the output analog waveform, it’s not surprising that there is a vigorous debate about the ability of Class D to sound as good as conventional amps.
It seems fair to state that the more efficient the amp is, the more challenging it is to get the amp to sound reference quality.
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Concur with your observations. BTW, tripath amps are a variation of Class D.
No doubt Class D has a lot to offer in regards to output power and efficiency. The trade off with Class D is achieving overall sound quality that rivals the better conventional amp designs. Given all the switching and filtering involved to re-generate the output analog waveform, it’s not surprising that there is a vigorous debate about the ability of Class D to sound as good as conventional amps.
It seems fair to state that the more efficient the amp is, the more challenging it is to get the amp to sound reference quality.
You are correct about classD, of course. I try to talk about them separately only because most people are talking about Hypex and ucd when they mention classD. I definitely think you are right on in your statement on efficiency being a bugaboo in achieving reference quality sound.
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Hi again
That EETimes article mentioned poor linearity/resolution down towards the noisefloor being a dealbreaker. Just what effective dynamic range do listeners expect? If we allow for considerable headroom for the occasional high peaks that are not uncommon with classical music, one isn't going to approach the noisefloor due to masking by ambient sounds - even with double glazing, surely?
I'm willing to believe what my ears told me & what visitors thought over the week I borrowed the class D Primare power amp. I'm also willing to entertain the idea that class D HAS matured to the degree where it can be used seriously.
Regards
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That EETimes article mentioned poor linearity/resolution down towards the noisefloor being a dealbreaker. Just what effective dynamic range do listeners expect?
I think we need 10-15 dB more both at the quiet and the loud ends than is generally realized. I think that truly adequate dynamic capabilities are the un-suspected "final frontier" and are the Achilles tendon in otherwise great playback systems, to wildly mix (or "wildly to mix") metaphors.
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While Class D has progressed, do not concur they sound as good as a high end conventional amp. As stated earlier, the more efficient the amp is, the more challenging it is to get the amp to sound its best.
In absolute sound quality terms, Class A (to me) designed properly will achieve a level of performance that is not matched by any other topology. Yes, Class A is the least efficient, but does LESS to modify/modulate/switch the incoming signal than any other amp type.
This article explains both pros and challenges with Class D:
http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1071.pdf (http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1071.pdf)
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P.S., addressing the double glazing aspect, don't forget we are capable of hearing around 20dB "into the noise", thanks to our ear/brain's outstanding pattern recognition capabilities. Understanding quiet conversations in a noisy party is an example of this.
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I agree with Brian Cheney, fatigue has always set in with me listening to switching amps. But put the same amp on a battery supply, and the fatigue totally disappears.
really? i could have sworn brian said this:
"...Recently I had the W4S small integrated (100W/ch) in my system for several months, listening almost daily without fatigue or distress. The sound was clear, natural, and well defined...."
i can understand how something else w/the same technology made brian physically ill - that has happened to me listening to xm... it seems to me that, like anything else, implementation is key...
doug s.,
keeping an open mind...
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While Class D has progressed, do not concur they sound as good as a high end conventional amp. As stated earlier, the more efficient the amp is, the more challenging it is to get the amp to sound its best.
In absolute sound quality terms, Class A (to me) designed properly will achieve a level of performance that is not matched by any other topology. Yes, Class A is the least efficient, but does LESS to modify/modulate/switch the incoming signal than any other amp type.
This article explains both pros and challenges with Class D:
http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1071.pdf (http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1071.pdf)
i am keeping an open mind. the summary of the 7 year old article you reference was that class-d amps will provide "similar performance to conwentional class ab amps", if properly designed. and that "constant innowations in semiconductor technology" are prowiding "better audio performance". i am looking forward to hearing the latest-n-greatest that hypex class-d (like ncore) has to offer. after all, 7 years has passed since the article was written.
i couldn't stand listening to cd's in any other than a casual manner before ~2000; now i enjoy them a lot, if still not as much as winyl. progress is possible...
what i find really fascinating about the ncores is that raves have come from folks who need muscle amps, as well as from folks w/high efficiency speakers normally associated w/flea-power amps...
doug s.
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"what i find really fascinating about the ncores is that raves have come from folks who need muscle amps, as well as from folks w/high efficiency speakers normally associated w/flea-power amps..."
That's what I find a bit suspicious.
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"what i find really fascinating about the ncores is that raves have come from folks who need muscle amps, as well as from folks w/high efficiency speakers normally associated w/flea-power amps..."
That's what I find a bit suspicious.
ya, i am sure it's a plot, and everyone is making it up... :duh:
presently, i have a pair of speakers that would love a muscle amp, as well as 99db efficient horns; when i finally get around to trying this technology, i will let ya know how they work on both. but, do you think you can trust me? :lol:
doug s.
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"what i find really fascinating about the ncores is that raves have come from folks who need muscle amps, as well as from folks w/high efficiency speakers normally associated w/flea-power amps..."
That's what I find a bit suspicious.
The fact that an amp can work well in both instances is suspicious?? Really?
My current amps (Atma-Sphere MA-1's) work well in both instances. In fact, many good amps (including the Ncore amps) can excel in either scenario.
George
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While Class D has progressed, do not concur they sound as good as a high end conventional amp. As stated earlier, the more efficient the amp is, the more challenging it is to get the amp to sound its best.
In absolute sound quality terms, Class A (to me) designed properly will achieve a level of performance that is not matched by any other topology. Yes, Class A is the least efficient, but does LESS to modify/modulate/switch the incoming signal than any other amp type.
This article explains both pros and challenges with Class D:
http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1071.pdf (http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1071.pdf)
Freo-1,
How many times are you going to keep saying the same thing? :scratch: You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but must we be subjected to the same comments in post after post?
We know you prefer Class A amps. We know that you don't believe that a Class D amps can't sound as good. We know that you love to refer to articles written a long time ago to try and bolster your opinion.
How about something new or maybe just leave it alone?
George
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Maybe cause he is trying to keep an open mind.
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Um, the paper referenced is an application note from a manufacturer of Class D amplifier chips, outlining some of the key technical issues.
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Frankly, everyone is basically saying the same thing over and over....
Jim
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I guess at the end of the day it is which Class "D" amp. Design and implentation of such is key to any design. Conventional, Hybrid ? Off the shelf modules or custom designed ? Switching power supply the heart of the design again off the shelf or custom desinged military grade ?
Some get it right, some close and others no cigar. To offer general statements is not fair to those Manufactures who do get it right. Until one has tried every class "D" offering all is moot.
As stated before I ran away from the early versions of class "D" heard in our system. Kept going back to my Class "A" SET. Not anymore. A hybrid design feed by a tubed preamp did it for our personal system.
For us no more $2200/ pair 211 RCA tubes and other NOS tubes to sound right. No biasing, no trannie hum, 500W vs 18W, 128db vs 85db noise floor.
One size does not fit all. Wether class "A" or "D" just give peace a chance. Try em.
charles
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The fact that an amp can work well in both instances is suspicious?? Really?
My current amps (Atma-Sphere MA-1's) work well in both instances. In fact, many good amps (including the Ncore amps) can excel in either scenario.
George
When people make claimes such as that about a new product being introduced, 'it works great with all speakers in all applications' it sounds like hype and rouses my suspicion. That doesn't mean it can't be true. I guess your Atmos would be your example of that. But as to your question, yes really!
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Shouldn't we make a blanket statement saying that well implemented Class A, A/B, and D amplification sounds better than poorly implemented Class A, A/B, and D amplification and leave it at that. I just want an amplifier that sounds good to me. Who cares what Class of amplification it is.
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ya, i am sure it's a plot, and everyone is making it up... :duh:
presently, i have a pair of speakers that would love a muscle amp, as well as 99db efficient horns; when i finally get around to trying this technology, i will let ya know how they work on both. but, do you think you can trust me? :lol:
doug s.
Heck no, I can't trust you. I don't just 'believe' personal opinions on the internet, :green: new products and flavor of the week are always full of hype. You know that, having been here from the start just like me. I find it amusing that some people get upset if their excitement about a component isn't shared by others.
I do enjoy others reporting their findings about a product, it adds to the information and helps in making choices.
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Shouldn't we make a blanket statement saying that well implemented Class A, A/B, and D amplification sounds better than poorly implemented Class A, A/B, and D amplification and leave it at that. I just want an amplifier that sounds good to me. Who cares what Class of amplification it is.
I agree with that statement. But the topic thread is about class D vs others. :argue:
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Heck no, I can't trust you. I don't just 'believe' personal opinions on the internet, :green: new products and flavor of the week are always full of hype. You know that, having been here from the start just like me. I find it amusing that some people get upset if their excitement about a component isn't shared by others.
I do enjoy others reporting their findings about a product, it adds to the information and helps in making choices.
hey, i am not disagreeing regarding fotm and hype. but, i certainly don't get suspicious when i read one report from someone w/108db-efficient horns who says an amp is the best he's heard, and then he buys it to replace his low-power amp, and then i read another report about the same amp, whose owner says it's the best he's heard, and he buys it to replace the muscle amps driving his 85db-efficient full-range floorstanders. instead of suspicion, i get curious, and interested to further explore.
and yes, regarding these new ncore amps, i do trust everyone regarding what they say - as far as it working (or not) for them. i am not so ignorant that i am conned by the "next greatest thing", and that i must have it simply because someone else said how great it is. but suspicion? for me, that happens when i suspect someone has some ulterior motive, and is not being truthful regarding what they are saying... i haven't picked that up on my radar in what i have been reading regarding ncores...
ymmv,
doug s.
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Fred, Something to consider, every coin has two sides. If the Ncore is transparent and a truly closer approach to a straight wire with gain then someone will sooner or later feed garbage into it and be dismayed by the magnitude of the upstream problems that are revealed.
Eventually we will hear about this. I am not suspicious of claims that the amplifier is suitable for both high and low efficiency speakers, a properly designed amplifier should be able to drive damn near any speaker without problems.
As far as a general discussion of the merits of Class D versus the rest, it is a waste of time. Pros and cons can only be meaningfully dealt with by considering specific cases. IMO
Scotty
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hey, i am not disagreeing regarding fotm and hype. but, i certainly don't get suspicious when i read one report from someone w/108db-efficient horns who says an amp is the best he's heard, and then he buys it to replace his low-power amp, and then i read another report about the same amp, whose owner says it's the best he's heard, and he buys it to replace the muscle amps driving his 85db-efficient full-range floorstanders. instead of suspicion, i get curious, and interested to further explore.
and yes, regarding these new ncore amps, i do trust everyone regarding what they say - as far as it working (or not) for them. i am not so ignorant that i am conned by the "next greatest thing", and that i must have it simply because someone else said how great it is. but suspicion? for me, that happens when i suspect someone has some ulterior motive, and is not being truthful regarding what they are saying... i haven't picked that up on my radar in what i have been reading regarding ncores...
ymmv,
doug s.
I guess you have a more dire definition of suspicion than I do, in this context.
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Fred, Something to consider, every coin has two sides. If the Ncore is transparent and a truly closer approach to a straight wire with gain then someone will sooner or later feed garbage into it and be dismayed by the magnitude of the upstream problems that are revealed.
Eventually we will hear about this. I am not suspicious of claims that the amplifier is suitable for both high and low efficiency speakers, a properly designed amplifier should be able to drive damn near any speaker without problems.
As far as a general discussion of the merits of Class D versus the rest, it is a waste of time. Pros and cons can only be meaningfully dealt with by considering specific cases. IMO
Scotty
I'm not suspicious of the ncore product, in fact I'm interested. But, we've already had people come over to register an account simply to shill Ncore to an annoying level and even set up multiple accounts. Hyped claims are suspect, to me.
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I'm not suspicious of the ncore product, in fact I'm interested. But, we've already had people come over to register an account simply to shill Ncore to an annoying level and even set up multiple accounts. Hyped claims are suspect, to me.
That's why the Tour is so good. These are random people that are listening and giving their feedback. The only thing I've asked for is honest feedback. That's it!
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...But, we've already had people come over to register an account simply to shill Ncore to an annoying level and even set up multiple accounts.
Please cite an example.
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That's why the Tour is so good. These are random people that are listening and giving their feedback. The only thing I've asked for is honest feedback. That's it!
Yeah, I agree!
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Please cite an example.
The posts have been removed by JohnR, I think. You could pm him.
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The posts have been removed by JohnR, I think. You could pm him.
i went thru the igwb posts, where these "shill posts" are alleged to have taken place. yes, i see new members posting. not surprising, really, as someone on the web who is interested and does a search on "ncore" will certainly find the a/c forum threads. but, i haven't seen any shilling, only posts from owners giving their opinions. not sure why some of the posts got deleted, actually...
ymmv,
doug s.
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I guess you have a more dire definition of suspicion than I do, in this context.
i guess we are arguing about symantics :lol:
afaik, "suspicious" does in fact connote bad things:
https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=virus+that+takes+your+email+list&oq=virus+that+takes+your+email+list&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=igoogle.3...1539.14721.0.14877.25.5.2.18.20.1.385.1036.0j3j1j1.5.0...0.0.#hl=en&q=suspicious&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&psj=1&ei=ieKiT9zhMKPG6AH3y_mACQ&ved=0CC4QkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=b1cb84515fad6089&biw=1213&bih=601
sus·pi·cious
adjective /səˈspiSHəs/
1. Having or showing a cautious distrust of someone or something
* - he was suspicious of her motives
* - she gave him a suspicious look
2. Causing one to have the idea or impression that something or someone is of questionable, dishonest, or dangerous character or condition
* - they are not treating the fire as suspicious
3. Having the belief or impression that someone is involved in an illegal or dishonest activity
* - police were called when staff became suspicious
Synonyms
adjective: distrustful, doubtful, fishy, suspect, mistrustful, questionable, dubious, shady, leery, equivocal
doug s.
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i guess we are arguing about symantics :lol:
afaik, "suspicious" does in fact connote bad things:
https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=virus+that+takes+your+email+list&oq=virus+that+takes+your+email+list&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=igoogle.3...1539.14721.0.14877.25.5.2.18.20.1.385.1036.0j3j1j1.5.0...0.0.#hl=en&q=suspicious&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&psj=1&ei=ieKiT9zhMKPG6AH3y_mACQ&ved=0CC4QkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=b1cb84515fad6089&biw=1213&bih=601
sus·pi·cious
adjective /səˈspiSHəs/
1. Having or showing a cautious distrust of someone or something
* - he was suspicious of her motives
* - she gave him a suspicious look
2. Causing one to have the idea or impression that something or someone is of questionable, dishonest, or dangerous character or condition
* - they are not treating the fire as suspicious
3. Having the belief or impression that someone is involved in an illegal or dishonest activity
* - police were called when staff became suspicious
Synonyms
adjective: distrustful, doubtful, fishy, suspect, mistrustful, questionable, dubious, shady, leery, equivocal
doug s.
In this context, my definition is more like this one;
3. A state of uncertainty; doubt. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/suspicion
'Leery' is a good synonym.
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i went thru the igwb posts, where these "shill posts" are alleged to have taken place. yes, i see new members posting. not surprising, really, as someone on the web who is interested and does a search on "ncore" will certainly find the a/c forum threads. but, i haven't seen any shilling, only posts from owners giving their opinions. not sure why some of the posts got deleted, actually...
ymmv,
doug s.
Count yourself lucky if you missed them. It was ugly, sending the ncore threads into quarantine and posts were deleted. JohnR threw out a couple of yes votes in the circle poll due to multi-accounting by one of the shills he put on time out.
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Count yourself lucky if you missed them. It was ugly, sending the ncore threads into quarantine and posts were deleted. JohnR threw out a couple of yes votes in the circle poll due to multi-accounting by one of the shills he put on time out.
as i stated before, i did not miss them. they are there for eternity for all to see, in the quarantine and intergalactic waste bin circles. the only things i saw ugly were folks raving about how good they must be, who have never heard them; and folks ranting about how bad they must be while having never heard them. mostly from folks who have been a/c members a while. the "newbie" posts were primarily from owners who have heard them and stated their wiews about them.
doug s.
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as i stated before, i did not miss them. they are there for eternity for all to see, in the quarantine and intergalactic waste bin circles. the only things i saw ugly were folks raving about how good they must be, who have never heard them; and folks ranting about how bad they must be while having never heard them. mostly from folks who have been a/c members a while. the "newbie" posts were primarily from owners who have heard them and stated their wiews about them.
doug s.
Some of the newbie posts were multiple accounts by one particular individual. 'Ding' :idea:
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I agree with that statement. But the topic thread is about class D vs others. :argue:
Well stated. This thread is titled “Class D vs. the Rest”, so it’s appropriate to point out how Class D amps actually work. The posts and references listed were listed to point out both the strengths and challenges. As pointed out, the last post listed is a manufacture of the devices used for Class D.
It’s also fair to point out how the operation of the amp can correlate to the performance of the amp. The principals of Class D operation has not changed since the mid to late 2000’s, so the bugbears brought out then still apply today. Granted, there are perhaps better (faster) components to work with, but that only goes so far. The design concepts of Class D are a more involved, no question, so it’s not as easy to get Class D designs right. The papers also show how a minor deviation in component values can have a significant adverse impact on output sound quality. The more the amp has to switch the signal (from Class A to Class AB to Class B to Class D) the more difficult it is to get the amp to sound its best.
Class D has some advantages over conventional (high power output, no need for feedback, etc). If one owns speakers that are of lower efficiency, then Class D could be just the ticket for those speaker types.
I’ve owned and have listened to a fair amount of Class D amps to date. To me, the best Class D has not yet equaled the best conventional amp designs (but they have improved).
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"I’ve owned and have listened to a fair amount of Class D amps to date. To me, the best Class D has not yet equaled the best conventional amp designs (but they have improved)"
You say this without having heard the latest challenger, Ncore 400 DIY, so how can you be so open minded as you say you are. Also until you hear Ncore's 1200 amp, designed to compete with other OEMs, you and others will still not know for sure. Keep in mind that there are other resent designs that I would like to know if you have had a chance to hear and if so what your impressions are:Devailet D, NAD M2, Mark Levinson no 53 and Tad. All are highly respected and all received praise for there sound. Now, everyone has different tastes and these my not be your cup of tea but to force others who find these or other class d to their liking to defend and prove it by technological means is bordering on bulling. So fine, you love class A and will always, but then you can not say you are open minded if you have to have other people prove it to you, only you can, by listening and investigating it yourself. Dito for Fred.
I am not taking sides but unless you have tried or heard the latest, all you are doing is assuming, and you know the old saying about assuming, right.
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For those interested in the "starting date" for Class D, the Spectron website states that "John Ulrick, introduced the very first hi-fidelity switching design amplifier into the audio world, while he was the president of Infinity Systems, at CES 1974".
Hope that I am telling you guys what you already know!
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Please forgive me.
I meant to say I hope that I am NOT telling you guys what you already know!
Sorry!
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No, that's interesting.
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The initial invention of Class D is attributed to Baxandall: Baxandall, P. J., “Transistor sinewave oscillators,” IEE Proc., 748–758, London, May 1959.
In it he says "It is suggested that the term 'class-D' be applied to the operating conditions used in these oscillators. Thus a class-D oscillator or amplifier is one in which the angle of current flow in each active device is 180 degrees, but in which substantially no voltage exists across the active device while it is conducting."
So that proves it.
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Thanks, now that's really interesting.
Certainly its no recent arrival!
Sure pushes 1974 way, way back!
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Well, those are oscillators, not amplifiers. Haven't found the "first class D amplifier" yet. Anyone? (Perhaps it was Ulrick.)
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With the new up-coming energy regulation laws in Europe, and will probably become law in the US, won't that force all amp companies to go Class D?
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Shouldn't we make a blanket statement saying that well implemented Class A, A/B, and D amplification sounds better than poorly implemented Class A, A/B, and D amplification and leave it at that. I just want an amplifier that sounds good to me. Who cares what Class of amplification it is.
Actually I do! I like elegant solutions that reduce power consumption. Having therefore borrowed one to then find it's SQ is far better than anything else I've heard, more than ices the cake. Having said that, I get your point & can't agree more.
"It's the sound quality, stupid!" is a phrase that springs to mind. As long as class D inherently sounds no worse than class A/B & is reliable - it's a win win.
I also think that dynamic range is a big red herring here. What struck me with the huge amount of detail the Primare A34.2 brought to the table was a palpable increase in ambience where with acoustic instruments played together in an acoustic space (for example), I, & other listeners could differentiate those instruments in space & hear far more of their character or timbre. The same applied to electronic music despite the acoustic space being generated. Even listening to TV programs or films meant that background low-level incidental sounds like a passing car or clatter of a bicycle mounting a kerb could add an extra dimension to realism. If low level dynamic range was an issue, would myself & others be able to hear so much more?
Although I've heard the phrase "too much detail", I'm not exactly sure what this means - to me, it's like saying too much sound quality. If detail detracts, then I can understand it. Like most things in audio, the quality of the recording is crucial but hearing so much more was revelatory. Like all good equipment, poor quality still sounded poor.
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With the new up-coming energy regulation laws in Europe, and will probably become law in the US, won't that force all amp companies to go Class D?
I certainly hope not! That seems a bit draconian. :o
No offense, but energy savings does not enter into the equation when it comes to sound quality. The only aspect I care about is how it sounds compared to live (unamplified) music.
From an engineering aspect, as pointed out, as one moves up the ladder from Class A through the various topologies, the incoming signal get modified more and more. It is not unreasonable to expect a sonic tradeoff as the signal gets added processing to the output speakers.
Perhaps one day, Class D will compete with the best Class AB amps. I would say right now they are completive with moderate conventional amps, but not the top end. It is not an easy engineering feat to achieve this. Only time will tell how this progresses.
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"...Perhaps one day, Class D will compete with the best Class AB amps..."
that day already passed... where you been hiding? :lol:
doug s.
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that day already passed... where you been hiding? :lol:
doug s.
The amps at the at any of the shows or shops certainly has not!
The only thing that passed is the hype. :wink:
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Not at any of the shows or shops! The only thing that passed is the hype. :wink:
there are a slew of class-d amps that have garnered favorable rewiews, comparing them to respected class ab amps. (and i am not even taking into consideration the ncore's.) if you don't like them, that's a different issue. :wink:
some folks don't like tube amps. others don't like s/s amps. it doesn't mean someone is correct if they say "tube amps can't compete w/solid state amps". or if they say "solid state amps cannot compete w/tube amps".
your statement is simply factually incorrect. the best class d amps do compete with the best class ab amps. period. even if you think all class d amps suck, it doesn't change the facts.
sorry if my kharma ran over your dogma... 8)
doug s.
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there are a slew of class-d amps that have garnered favorable rewiews, comparing them to respected class ab amps. (and i am not even taking into consideration the ncore's.) if you don't like them, that's a different issue. :wink:
some folks don't like tube amps. others don't like s/s amps. it doesn't mean someone is correct if they say "tube amps can't compete w/solid state amps". or if they say "solid state amps cannot compete w/tube amps".
your statement is simply factually incorrect. the best class d amps do compete with the best class ab amps. period. even if you think all class d amps suck, it doesn't change the facts.
sorry if my kharma ran over your dogma... 8)
doug s.
Reviews on amps are all over the place, so one has to take them with grains of salt. The statements about how the amps work, and the modifications/switching involved are factually correct. What IS in dispute is how audible the deltas in amp designs are, and that is both objective and subjective argument that will never be solved here or agreed upon. I do agree with your statement about tubes vs. solid state amps (some folks like them, while others, not so much). 8)
In order to accurately assess qualities of a given amp in your system, you actually have to have time with the product for a period under various listening conditions to get a handle on it really sounds. Whenever I’ve done that with an assortment of Class D amps, they (in the final analysis) just do not sound as good (to me) as an amp along the lines of a Pass Labs/Threshold, or one of my Tech Buddy’s DIY tube amps. From reading up and researching “how they work”, can see why this may be the case.
So, dogma or not, do not agree that the best Class D sounds as good (yet) as the best conventional amps (and really, who cares if there is agreement on this or not, anyway?). It does come down to what each individual likes/dislikes in their system. For example, a set of speakers that are of lower efficiency certainly could sound better with a higher powered Class D amp than a moderate powered conventional amp.
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I think were the discussion took a left turn was when those who honestly posted their feelings about Class D amplification and the comments came in that we are closed minded, and that was the nice thing said about those not in the Class D camp.
Freo-1 was on point with his post, it is a personal choice and I too do not understand why some are so forceful in trying to convince those who have reservations that they have come of age and or have exceeded all other forms of amplification. It does bother me that some want to attempt to diminish others enjoyment of listening to music.
Jim
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'Best' implies a broad spectrum given the price range of audio gear. If a ClassDaudio amp 'only' competes in the let's say <$3k range, that's plenty fine for a broke 'mid-fi' guy like me...
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He’s not bullying anyone. He is simply stating (nicely) that he is not buying into the group think mentality, and it’s OK to disagree about Class D. After all, the name of the bloody thread is “Class D vs. the rest”, so that is what is being discussed.
One should not “assume” about what folks have or have not heard. So, if some people like the latest Class D offerings, great! There is a lot to like. For others that do not like them as much, that is fine also. It does seem that (some of) the Class D supports are taking critical assessments about this topology a bit too personal. From an engineering standpoint, it’s not all that hard to work out why some folks are not as happy with Class D. On the other hand, have not seen any engineering argument as to why Class D has advanced to equal or better conventional amps.
Isn't the lack of crossover distortion in Class D one of it's selling point?
I am a little torn about my experience w/ class d amps because prior to the IRS2092-based classdaudio.com amps I have found class d to be a mixed bag: Tripaths (Tk2050 - same as in Virtue, TA2020/24) I liked but didn't wow me. Panny digital receiver, same and for similar reasons. Unfortunately the CDA/SDS amps are the only ones using the IR chip (I think Esoteric has one model), so there isn't a broader commercial consensus on whether that chip is indeed a step ahead in class d designs. My limited experience is that it is.
Tube folks get *real* personal if you say they are just distortion generators that provide a euphonic experience and not much else. People perpetuate that meme on an almost daily basis.
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I have that Tripath in my office, and the Panasonic xr45, which I use in my Home theater. I think the Tripath, in my main system, provides more depth and layering than the Panny and the center image is really locked in. There is a clarity in both that is impressive. I've preferred them over the Ice amp I had in here.
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(http://pzy.be/t/2/ax.jpg) (http://"http://pzy.be/v/2/ax.jpg")
+1 :lol:
Seriously, wouldn't you rather have this? (you know you would)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62296)
Over this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62297)
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I think were the discussion took a left turn was when those who honestly posted their feelings about Class D amplification and the comments came in that we are closed minded, and that was the nice thing said about those not in the Class D camp.
Freo-1 was on point with his post, it is a personal choice and I too do not understand why some are so forceful in trying to convince those who have reservations that they have come of age and or have exceeded all other forms of amplification. It does bother me that some want to attempt to diminish others enjoyment of listening to music.
Jim
i think i made it quite clear that, if freo is making a personal choice, i am in agreement. but, correct me if i am wrong - freo, imo, is not making i personal choice, but he is stating that class ab amps are categorically better than class d amps. period. and if you disagree w/him, you are wrong. it is this that i take exception to...
the same arguments are had re: redbook vs winyl - imo, redbook is inferior to winyl. but that doesn't make is so for those who prefer redbook.
ymmv,
doug s.
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seriously. i have not heard either of those two amps. but, from what i have read on the internet, i would take the ncores w/o hesitation over that other monster amp. seriously. unless i was not going to use either, but sell. then, i'd take the monster, sell it and buy the ncores. 8)
doug s.
+1 :lol:
Seriously, wouldn't you rather have this? (you know you would)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62296)
Over this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62297)
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Seriously, wouldn't you rather have this? (you know you would)
Actually no, After owning 100+ lb Class A mono blocks it's so nice to have little amps that don't heat my room and that I can move to clean and not dread moving.
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I have a ICE amp 125asx series that I enjoy and I also have a tube integrated that I enjoy <- check out my avatar ain't she a beauty.
Last time I went to Baskin Robins, I noticed 31 flavors even though Vanilla is the best ;).
I posted the first thread about Ncore on this forum and have been excited for it for a long time. I may even buy one someday. Bruno did publish a paper in which he outlined the new novel ideas that he implemented with Ncore. Perhaps people who post here with authority would be well served in purchasing that paper and reading it??? It's probably a good place to start in understanding what is different about this implimentation.
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i think i made it quite clear that, if freo is making a personal choice, i am in agreement. but, correct me if i am wrong - freo, imo, is not making i personal choice, but he is stating that class ab amps are categorically better than class d amps. period. and if you disagree w/him, you are wrong. it is this that i take exception to...
the same arguments are had re: redbook vs winyl - imo, redbook is inferior to winyl. but that doesn't make is so for those who prefer redbook.
ymmv,
doug s.
Doug, you are close, but not quite. I’ll take the hit for not being clearer.
Actually, I’m stating that Class A is the closest technology available to a “wire with gain”, followed by Class AB, then Class D, etc. I’m speaking strictly from an engineering standpoint as to how much the signal needs to be modified/switched to obtain an output waveform.
I’m stating my preference based on what I’ve heard from the various amps over the years I’ve owned them (worked on them, updated them, etc). I’m NOT stating that anyone is wrong! For God’s sakes, this is audio after all, where personal preferences still rule the day. Just trying to correlate what is heard (to me) as to how it operates. Truth be told, the speakers have more at play with the sound than the amp with regards to distortion and realism. The choice of amp power output with a given speaker has more effect than the amp topology itself. Having said that, personally, with the right speaker, it is my subjective opinion that Class A will sound better than ANY other amp.
So, hope that clears up misconceptions. One of the limitations with this medium is one cannot look another in the eye, and read/respond when comms are not being taken as intended. Spoken/written communications has been said to be only 20% effective.
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Actually no, After owning 100+ lb Class A mono blocks it's so nice to have little amps that don't heat my room and that I can move to clean and not dread moving.
I posted that tounge in cheek :wink:
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Freo-1:
Thanks for the clarification. For me it is a personal choice, after hearing it in person. I buy what my ears like and it doesn't matter what class it is. With that said, my ears like tubes, that is not to say that a non-tube amp will capture my attention if it sounds good to my ears.
I plan to attend the upcoming show in Newport Beach, CA, no doubt, there will be a bevy of Class D strutting their thing.
Jim
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Freo-1:
Thanks for the clarification. For me it is a personal choice, after hearing it in person. I buy what my ears like and it doesn't matter what class it is. With that said, my ears like tubes, that is not to say that a non-tube amp will capture my attention if it sounds good to my ears.
I plan to attend the upcoming show in Newport Beach, CA, no doubt, there will be a bevy of Class D strutting their thing.
Jim
No worries, Mate!
I’ve bought quite a few Class D amps over the years, as I like the concept of leaving the amp on all the time. The no feedback aspect of its operation, along with no class B switching, is appealing. The ability to feed a digital input to an integrated amp (a la Sony PLM approach) is a really cool idea that I wish would have caught on (sadly, it has not).
However, the reality is, to my ears, a design like a Nelson Pass XA amp STILL sounds better than any other amp topology I’ve heard to date. That is because it is a simpler design, with less gain stages, as well as NO switching to speak of. Now, I still love tubes, as I’m working on a 12SN7/1625 mono block set. I’ll also continue to look at Class D amps, as I do think down the road that will become the predominant topology.
The reasons I kept posting links was to get folks to understand how the different amp design approaches work, and what (if any) audible effects can be heard from them.
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Freo-1:
I run my amps in triode for the most part, but funny enough, I find some genre's of music actually sounds better in ultra, rock, the blues mostly. Could be the way they were mastered.
If I recall correctly, in class a/b, you lose the even harmonics. I would think that the same holds true for switching amps (class d). Does this sound right, or is it possible for class d to produce all the harmonics even though they're switching amps?
Jim
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Freo-1:
I run my amps in triode for the most part, but funny enough, I find some genre's of music actually sounds better in ultra, rock, the blues mostly. Could be the way they were mastered.
If I recall correctly, in class a/b, you lose the even harmonics. I would think that the same holds true for switching amps (class d). Does this sound right, or is it possible for class d to produce all the harmonics even though they're switching amps?
Jim
That is a good question. Here is a link to address distortion regarding Class D amps:
[url][http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/174018-thd-n-class-d-amps-hd-noise-limited.html/url]
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Here is a cool link to infor about Class D amps:
http://www.analog.com/library/analogDialogue/archives/40-06/class_d.pdf (http://www.analog.com/library/analogDialogue/archives/40-06/class_d.pdf)
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I am afraid that I am eating my words about Class D amps after reading this review and buying the TBI Millenia. I have a friend that bought one too, and he is as astounded as I am.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/3_mini_amps_e.html
You can hear the singers grunt and groan and smack their lips in between their verses, but the amp still retains the magic of any Class A or tube amp that I ever heard. It never becomes sterile or SS sounding.
The battery makes it a world class amp, the switching power supply that comes with it just makes it OK. At $500, this is as great a value as the Musical Fidelity A1 Class A integrated ever was. Maybe I should gut the electronics out and put it in a DIY case. I could probably sell it for $1K to the DIY'ers.
Tube amps with output tranformers sound very veiled in comparison. I never thought I would like a Class D amp in a million years.
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Freo-1:
Thanks for the clarification. For me it is a personal choice, after hearing it in person. I buy what my ears like and it doesn't matter what class it is. With that said, my ears like tubes, that is not to say that a non-tube amp will capture my attention if it sounds good to my ears.
I plan to attend the upcoming show in Newport Beach, CA, no doubt, there will be a bevy of Class D strutting their thing.
Jim
Jim,
Anothere link:
[url][http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/176178-clipping-distortion-class-d-amplifier.html/url]
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Freo-1
I was doing some research and came up with this 2009 disertation from the University of Berkley:
http://rfic.eecs.berkeley.edu/~niknejad/ee242/pdf/eecs242_class_EF_PAs.pdf
On Page 21 is the following statement regarding class d:
Switch capacitance limits efficiency in high frequency
applications.
Maybe this is why I felt a tightness or grain in the high frequencies of the Bel Canto setup that a friend has.
I have a Premier (Pioneer) Head Unit in one of my vehicles that is Class D and it sounds amazing in that application and feel no fatigue even on long excursions. However, I'm not doing critical listening while driving.
Jim
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Freo-1
I was doing some research and came up with this 2009 disertation from the University of Berkley:
http://rfic.eecs.berkeley.edu/~niknejad/ee242/pdf/eecs242_class_EF_PAs.pdf
On Page 21 is the following statement regarding class d:
Switch capacitance limits efficiency in high frequency
applications.
Maybe this is why I felt a tightness or grain in the high frequencies of the Bel Canto setup that a friend has.
I have a Premier (Pioneer) Head Unit in one of my vehicles that is Class D and it sounds amazing in that application and feel no fatigue even on long excursions. However, I'm not doing critical listening while driving.
Jim
I too have run across that paper. Personally, never have been a fan of the HF domain with Class D. It's one of the main reasons I do not keep any Class D amps long term for home audio. Mobile audio is a whole different issue.
Here is an interesting paper from National Semiconductor:
http://www.national.com/assets/en/appnotes/ClassDAmplifierFAQ.pdf (http://www.national.com/assets/en/appnotes/ClassDAmplifierFAQ.pdf)
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Speaking of class D, anybody else hear of those new amps from Hypex. I think they are called ?
In my most robotic voice with arms twitching robotically up and down and upper torso robotically moving side to side.
"Must buy Ncores... Must buy Ncores !!!"
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Freo-1
I was doing some research and came up with this 2009 disertation from the University of Berkley:
http://rfic.eecs.berkeley.edu/~niknejad/ee242/pdf/eecs242_class_EF_PAs.pdf (http://rfic.eecs.berkeley.edu/~niknejad/ee242/pdf/eecs242_class_EF_PAs.pdf)
On Page 21 is the following statement regarding class d:
Switch capacitance limits efficiency in high frequency
applications.
Maybe this is why I felt a tightness or grain in the high frequencies of the Bel Canto setup that a friend has.
I have a Premier (Pioneer) Head Unit in one of my vehicles that is Class D and it sounds amazing in that application and feel no fatigue even on long excursions. However, I'm not doing critical listening while driving.
Jim
Jim,
The following may explain why HF with Class D is not always pristine:
" In addition, class D amplifiers may contain elevated noise in the region above 20 kHz. Normally, a 20 kHz low-pass filter is used to limit noise measurements to the audible frequency range. However, the 3 to 6 pole low pass filter used in most audio analyzers may not be sharp enough to eliminate all of this extra noise, so the measurement accuracy may be impacted. A better filter to use is a low-pass filter conforming to the AES-17 standard. Originally intended for measuring D/A converters, this sharp low-pass filter is also ideal for measuring class D amplifiers. For Audio Precision's 2700 Series, the optional S-AES17 filter is available. All of the built-in digital filters present in APx analyzers already provide a sharp cut-off, so this issue is no longer a concern.
Traditional distortion measurements may not catch high frequency distortion problems, which can be present in class D amplifiers. That's because the usual THD+N measurement, using a low-pass cut-off frequency of 20 kHz, can't measure 3rd harmonics of fundamentals over about 6 kHz. The usual SMPTE IMD measurement is also insensitive to high frequency distortion, as it uses a fundamental of only 7 kHz. A twin-tone IMD measurement, using two high frequency fundamentals at 18 kHz and 20 kHz, solves this problem and reveals high frequency distortion problems. Both the 2700 Series and the APx Series include twin-tone DFD IMD testing capability.
Common Challenges:
- High frequency switching artifacts can cause distortion on an analyzer's inputs. A high quality external filter, such as AP's two channel AUX-0025 or eight channel AUX-0100, is essential to reduce high frequency switching noise that can affect measurement accuracy.
Out-of-band noise can affect noise measurements when using a standard low-pass filter. A sharp low-pass filter will keep significant out-of-band noise from affecting the results. The filters on the APx Series already have the necessary sharp slope. The optional S-AES17 filter is needed for the 2700 Series.
- High frequency distortion is missed with traditional THD+N and SMPTE IMD tests. The twin-tone (DFD) IMD test, available on the APx and 2700 Series, will reveal high frequency distortion missed by the other tests."
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Freo-1
Thanks for that. Who knows, maybe someone will be able to figure it all out, but I would surmise, it will be called something other than Class D at that point.
Jim
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http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,1233,t=amplifier+classes&i=55350,00.asp (http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,1233,t=amplifier+classes&i=55350,00.asp)
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I am afraid that I am eating my words about Class D amps after reading this review and buying the TBI Millenia. I have a friend that bought one too, and he is as astounded as I am.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/3_mini_amps_e.html
You can hear the singers grunt and groan and smack their lips in between their verses, but the amp still retains the magic of any Class A or tube amp that I ever heard. It never becomes sterile or SS sounding.
The battery makes it a world class amp, the switching power supply that comes with it just makes it OK. At $500, this is as great a value as the Musical Fidelity A1 Class A integrated ever was. Maybe I should gut the electronics out and put it in a DIY case. I could probably sell it for $1K to the DIY'ers.
Tube amps with output tranformers sound very veiled in comparison. I never thought I would like a Class D amp in a million years.
Tom, nice post. Your experience is similar to mine. I was a die hard Class A guy for years - SS and tubes, including OTL's. I tried Class D several years ago and hated them so I refused to try it again until I read about all the buzz on the ClassD SDS kit amps. While the SDS was better than my Class A amps in a couple of areas, it had an over-caffeinated, glassy, unnatural sounding HF so I went back to my Class A's.
Then I tried a Hephaestus Class D amp. The Hepha was better overall than the SDS (but then it should be given its price point). It had the tonality of excellent Class A amps and a more natural HF, but was not as resolved and dynamic as top Class A amps. For example, it took only a few seconds to hear that the Clayton M300 Class A's were superior to the Hepha's.
Then I bought the NCORE 400's in late January. I know many on AC are tired of the perceived hyping of the Hypex NCOREs... :lol: And I get that sentiment, as I have felt the same way with many other products that have been highly touted on this and other forums, only to be sold in droves a year later. And who knows for sure if the NCOREs won't go the same way?
All I can say personally is that in my system and to my ears, I prefer the NCOREs to the: (1) last two Class A amps I have owned (Atma-Sphere M60's and Pass Labs XA30.5 and (2) SDS and Hepha Class D's I still own. The NCOREs are more accurate, resolving and musical and they are the only Class D amp I have heard that finally gets the HF right. Will they be everyone's cup of tea? No.
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I think there is another angle to this, and that is the psycho-acoustic. If you cannot hear it, does it matter?
I think it was Geddes, [who has done scientific research in perception, not just as a speaker designer] saying that the typical amplifier distortion measurements don't correspond with perceived sound quality. That only certain types of distortion, and that being related to "crossover distortion" and the measured result of this distortion as a specific amp would switch from A to B on an AB.
I think he said that the thermal tracking of the components were important in managing this and so his leaning toward chip amps for this as a low cost effective solution to get high quality amplification --I am not very technically inclined, so most likely am misconstruing something here. So please take this just as an idea to broaden the area of discussion for why differences in topology and execution exist, not that I have represented this correctly.
So in a class D, it may not result in the same type of distortion and so perceived sound quality could be high relative to class AB for this reason.
-Tony
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Tom, nice post. Your experience is similar to mine. I was a die hard Class A guy for years - SS and tubes, including OTL's. I tried Class D several years ago and hated them so I refused to try it again until I read about all the buzz on the ClassD SDS kit amps. While the SDS was better than my Class A amps in a couple of areas, it had an over-caffeinated, glassy, unnatural sounding HF so I went back to my Class A's.
Then I tried a Hephaestus Class D amp. The Hepha was better overall than the SDS (but then it should be given its price point). It had the tonality of excellent Class A amps and a more natural HF, but was not as resolved and dynamic as top Class A amps. For example, it took only a few seconds to hear that the Clayton M300 Class A's were superior to the Hepha's.
Then I bought the NCORE 400's in late January. I know many on AC are tired of the perceived hyping of the Hypex NCOREs... :lol: And I get that sentiment, as I have felt the same way with many other products that have been highly touted on this and other forums, only to be sold in droves a year later. And who knows for sure if the NCOREs won't go the same way?
All I can say personally is that in my system and to my ears, I prefer the NCOREs to the: (1) last two Class A amps I have owned (Atma-Sphere M60's and Pass Labs XA30.5 and (2) SDS and Hepha Class D's I still own. The NCOREs are more accurate, resolving and musical and they are the only Class D amp I have heard that finally gets the HF right. Will they be everyone's cup of tea? No.
Interesting post. What speakers are you using?
I could understand how a higher powered Class D amp would work better on some speakers than a XA 30.5, but for speakers that are moderately efficient, it is more of a challenge. HF is where Class D to me falls short (vocals as well, but less so).
Something to consider is what kind of load is presented to the speaker. This link was posted on another forum to discuss this aspect:
http://www.audiograph.se/Downloads/PowerCube_12p_brochure_complete.pdf (http://www.audiograph.se/Downloads/PowerCube_12p_brochure_complete.pdf)
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Interesting post. What speakers are you using?
I could understand how a higher powered Class D amp would work better on some speakers than a XA 30.5, but for speakers that are moderately efficient, it is more of a challenge. HF is where Class D to me falls short (vocals as well, but less so).
Something to consider is what kind of load is presented to the speaker. This link was posted on another forum to discuss this aspect:
http://www.audiograph.se/Downloads/PowerCube_12p_brochure_complete.pdf (http://www.audiograph.se/Downloads/PowerCube_12p_brochure_complete.pdf)
Freo-1, all of my listening comparisons in the past 2 years have been done on Geddes Abbey 95db efficient 2 way monitors that roll off at about 12db/octave below around 50 hz. I cannot comment on how the NCORE compares to the Class A amps I referenced on other speakers (less efficient or otherwise), although I have read many posts on various forums where comparisons have been made on more demanding speakers such as the Maggies and others.
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Freo-1, all of my listening comparisons in the past 2 years have been done on Geddes Abbey 95db efficient 2 way monitors that roll off at about 12db/octave below around 50 hz. I cannot comment on how the NCORE compares to the Class A amps I referenced on other speakers (less efficient or otherwise), although I have read many posts on various forums where comparisons have been made on more demanding speakers such as the Maggies and others.
Thanks for responding. My experience with Class D amps on Source Technologies 277SE and Legacy Signature III’s has been a mixed bag at best. None of them sounded as good as a Threshold SA/3 or Pass Las XA 30.5 on these speakers.
Recently obtained a pair of Cary Signature Oak Model Ones, with SEAS Excel drivers. The overall performance from the XA 30.5 is simply incredible, with life like HF and vocals VERY few systems can achieve.
So, am interested in how the latest N Core amps will sound with the Legacy as well as the Cary. Based on how Class D amps work, it would take quite an engineering achievement to overcome the design limitations associated with the topology in the HF area.
I do think speaker interaction has not been talked about enough here. This alone could explain the wide differences of opinion and results with listening tests.
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Unlike most other common class d amps such as the tripath, without post filter feedback, Hypex's UCD as well as ncore have an essentially flat frequency response vs speaker impedance down to less than 2 ohm.....
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Unlike most other common class d amps such as the tripath, without post filter feedback, Hypex's UCD as well as ncore have an essentially flat frequency response vs speaker impedance down to less than 2 ohm.....
How do they measure that?
Example:
" In addition, class D amplifiers may contain elevated noise in the region above 20 kHz. Normally, a 20 kHz low-pass filter is used to limit noise measurements to the audible frequency range. However, the 3 to 6 pole low pass filter used in most audio analyzers may not be sharp enough to eliminate all of this extra noise, so the measurement accuracy may be impacted. A better filter to use is a low-pass filter conforming to the AES-17 standard. Originally intended for measuring D/A converters, this sharp low-pass filter is also ideal for measuring class D amplifiers. For Audio Precision's 2700 Series, the optional S-AES17 filter is available. All of the built-in digital filters present in APx analyzers already provide a sharp cut-off, so this issue is no longer a concern.
Traditional distortion measurements may not catch high frequency distortion problems, which can be present in class D amplifiers. That's because the usual THD+N measurement, using a low-pass cut-off frequency of 20 kHz, can't measure 3rd harmonics of fundamentals over about 6 kHz. The usual SMPTE IMD measurement is also insensitive to high frequency distortion, as it uses a fundamental of only 7 kHz. A twin-tone IMD measurement, using two high frequency fundamentals at 18 kHz and 20 kHz, solves this problem and reveals high frequency distortion problems. Both the 2700 Series and the APx Series include twin-tone DFD IMD testing capability.
Common Challenges:
- High frequency switching artifacts can cause distortion on an analyzer's inputs. A high quality external filter, such as AP's two channel AUX-0025 or eight channel AUX-0100, is essential to reduce high frequency switching noise that can affect measurement accuracy.
Out-of-band noise can affect noise measurements when using a standard low-pass filter. A sharp low-pass filter will keep significant out-of-band noise from affecting the results. The filters on the APx Series already have the necessary sharp slope. The optional S-AES17 filter is needed for the 2700 Series.
- High frequency distortion is missed with traditional THD+N and SMPTE IMD tests. The twin-tone (DFD) IMD test, available on the APx and 2700 Series, will reveal high frequency distortion missed by the other tests."
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One of the main reasons for a variety of experiences with many class d amps is due to their pre-filter feedback and the fact that this leads to a filter optimized for a certain load. As a result, they do not have flat frequency response with load and can sound better with certain speakers that happen to present a load near the point that the output filter was optimized for, and worse with those farther away from the design point. Hypex uses post filter feedback, as does a few other manufactures of class d amps. No coincidence perhaps that those with the better specs and reviews are usually post filter feedback designs. They generally have a flatter frequency response irrespective of load.
For further info on Hypex's measurement protocol I would refer you to their website where these issues are discussed and to Bruno himself. I am sure he would be the most capable to address any technical issues you may have with the design and/or performance of his amp.
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I’m keen to understand how issues (especially with frequency and phase/impedance) were addressed. I’ll be sure to head over to the DIY and poke around some more. Will read the technical papers again, but it seemed a little short on some aspects (probably due to IP concerns).
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This link was posted in another thread but the tehcnical aspect as relevant to this thread.
http://www.audiophilejournal.com/hypex-ncore-monoblock-amplifiers-mola-mola/
The NCore circuit contains:
1.A mathematically exact understanding of self-oscillation
2.Improved comparator circuitry insures that actual behaviour matches the theoretical model as closely as possible
3.New gate drive circuitry improves open-loop distortion at moderate signal levels while significantly reducing idle losses
4.A new control loop ups loop gain by 20dB across the full audio range without sacrificing stability
Amplifiers using all four of the above will be marketed under the name Ncore.
Amplifiers using only the first three will still be sold under the existing UcD brand even though their internals no longer resemble that of the well-known 2001 circuit.
It appears that Bruno is addressing some of the technical issues raised in this thread. It looks like the 'next gen' UcD modules could be close to the Ncore in performance.
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I didn't read through the whole thread, it's fairly large. Is there mention or comparison between the D amps and T amps like the Virtue M-901?
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There are links throughout thread which refer to various topics related to those types of comparisons.
I read the most recent tech papers on the N Core, and it is still a bit light on what’s going on regarding smoothing out the HF portion. The section on negative feedback is interesting as well, as somewhere along the way, there must have been some criticism about its usage.
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Here is another Class D amp that has gotten a rave review.
http://www.innerearmag.com/reviews/amplifiers/Genesis_2point2.shtml
Quote: "I suppose, that Class D amplification has reached maturity with the Genesis Reference Power Amplifier the proof of this accomplishment. It brings together technology and musicality and eliminates the myth that Class D amplifiers are only good for bass. My take on technology is that I don’t care about it from the technical viewpoint, but appreciate greatly what it can do for the industry I love, the music — and me. Great job Gary."
Here is another rave from 6moons, the amp received a Blue Moon award.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/genesis5/reference_5.html
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Here is another Class D amp that has gotten a rave review.
http://www.innerearmag.com/reviews/amplifiers/Genesis_2point2.shtml (http://www.innerearmag.com/reviews/amplifiers/Genesis_2point2.shtml)
Quote: "I suppose, that Class D amplification has reached maturity with the Genesis Reference Power Amplifier the proof of this accomplishment. It brings together technology and musicality and eliminates the myth that Class D amplifiers are only good for bass. My take on technology is that I don’t care about it from the technical viewpoint, but appreciate greatly what it can do for the industry I love, the music — and me. Great job Gary."
Here is another rave from 6moons, the amp received a Blue Moon award.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/genesis5/reference_5.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/genesis5/reference_5.html)
It’s good to see more positive feedback regarding Class D amps. How the amp works is of interest to me, so given all the processing required to get a output from Class D, am keen to work how these smart engineers address the challenges associated with it.
I do take reviews with large grains of salt these days, as it’s been a long time since I actually read a negative review about any piece of high end audio equipment (they are fun to read, though).
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This topic is really interesting but was stopped for long time. Since then many changes, is the Ncore still game changer? How's improve of Class D? Why recent many sells for Ncore based amps in the trading post?
Appreciate if someone can tell us what's going on with Class D...
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I moved from a NAD 365BEE at 150 watts per channel to Class D Audio kit at 250 wpc. Been listening to it for a couple months. It has fuller more lively bass but in a subtle way. The mids and highs are comparable to the NAD. Not harsh or shrill at all. I use normal cables. It sounds the same with all my sources inluding pc based digital through a modi dac and tube processor.
If I were looking to upgrade I would build a single ended class a amp. I have a speaker project underway that should come in at 93 spl so a lower power amp would work well. The class d amp can be used for bi amping the bass drivers. If you've got fairly efficient speakers you might consider a Pass Labs Aleph J diy build - can be done for under $1000.
The reason I would move to class a is just curiosity and something to work on, which is the reas8n most of us gear heads like to switch things up.
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I think it is worthwhile to keep this discussion going. First, many audiophiles are tinkerers, and are constantly changing components-I suspect this is the reason we see Ncore based amps (and others) come up for sale quite often.
I have had a DIY NC-400 amp in my stable for over a year now. "Game changer"... well, I prefer to refrain from using hyperbole. If I had unlimited resources, and electricity use was also of no concern to me, I would probably own massive, pure class A monoblocks like Pass XA 200.8s or a big pair of Vitus amps, but I cannot afford those, and I do not want to pay the electric bill for them either.
I can say that I have decide to sell my Pass X150.5, as the Ncore at least equals it in my system, and is much more resource friendly. One thing I will say, is that the Ncore is better than other class D of my experience (I have heard many ICE implementations, as well as a couple variations on Hypex uCD tech) as the Ncore does not have that slight lack of air and extension in the upper frequencies which seems to plague other class D designs. If one is looking for an amp that will add character to a system, the Ncore is not what you want though, to me it is a clear window on what is going on elsewhere; I use a DIY DACs, so I feel I can hear exactly what is going on in my DAC with the Ncore, and if want some "character" in my system I can get it by making changes ot the DAC.
As for feedback, well this is a controversial topic for sure. My understanding is that feedback in class D should not be considered the same way it is for traditional A-A/B amplifiers, as the feedback loop operates at a higher rate of speed-I hope actual class D engineers might comment on this, because I am not sure about it.
From what I have heard, only very best class A amplifiers offer anything which I would consider an advantage over Ncore amps, and those class A amplifiers are many times more expensive than even really nice Ncore implementations like those available from Merrill.
Of course, if you are lucky enough to have very sensitive speakers which do everything you need, you might be able to get by with something like a Pass XA 30.8, if I had speakers like that (>91 dB and 8 ohm nominal) I might try a XA 30.8, or refurbed version of one of the balanced input Aleph series amps...
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I just listened to Pipedream line arrays with dual subs containing two 18" drivers per sub.
It used to have a $16k Atmosphere tube amp but it was retired in favor of.... wait for it.... two brand new Crown class D pro amps. He uses this system for large scale / rock and has another system for "smaller" music, he said the Crowns blew away the Atmosphere amps, said it wasn't even close.
His Pipedreams system is one of the best I've heard and sounded spectacular. The Crowns go for around $500 each.
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Dave what Crown amps were those?
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I just listened to Pipedream line arrays with dual subs containing two 18" drivers per sub.
It used to have a $16k Atmosphere tube amp but it was retired in favor of.... wait for it.... two brand new Crown class D pro amps. He uses this system for large scale / rock and has another system for "smaller" music, he said the Crowns blew away the Atmosphere amps, said it wasn't even close.
His Pipedreams system is one of the best I've heard and sounded spectacular. The Crowns go for around $500 each.
I'm guessing this partly underlines the advantage of really having "enough" power on tap as much as the specific quality of the Crown amps being better. I think for many the only access to cheap power is the pro amp field. It is for me.
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Since this thread started some time ago, I’ve tried a few more Class D amps along the way. One of them was the Yamaha MX-D1, which was an excellent sounding amp. It sure was nice to have the 500 watts on hand. It did many things well. The circuit topology remains state of the art with current Class D amps, and had a number of propriety aspects to the design. The amp drove the ATC-SCM19’s quite nicely, and could drive them a couple of db higher than amps with less power. I think many people could easily live with the MX-D1, NCore’s or similar Class D types of similar quality.
In absolute terms, my preferred amp/preamp setup is a DIY tube setup, with a Thomas Meyer design 6AH4 preamp, and a pair of 1625 mono power amps. Close behind is an Electrocompaniet EC 4.7/AW2-120 power amp combination. Both the tube setup and EC setup sound a bit more natural overall compared to the Class D. The Class D amp sounds more 2D, and low level detail just does not sound quite as clear. The tonal balance from the tube setup is very seductive, and the EC gear is very accurate, with outstanding low level detail. Granted, it’s not a big difference, but it’s a difference that is picked up pretty quickly. The Class D amp gives me listener fatigue over time. The tube setup provides NO listener fatigue, and the EC setup has very little listener fatigue.
Disclaimer: These are personal observations with the ATC-SCM-19 speakers (and SVS SB13 Ultra/ATC C1) subwoofer setup. I think the speakers make a HUGE difference, and I could easily see with different speakers that audiophiles would rank the amps differently. The ATC’s are very precise, and not everyone would prefer their presentation. They also need 50 watts or more to sound their best.
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Those of you interested in a Class D amp should check out Aluminati right here on Audio Circle. I have their X2, and it is superb. Complete info on the Audio Circle site or at their webpage.
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Dave what Crown amps were those?
I just checked with him, they are the XLS DriveCore 2000s, he's running them bridged and full-range for the mids. He's got a pure class A SS amp on arrays of ribbon tweeters that were retrofitted to the Pipedreams to replace the stock dome tweeters and another pair of older Crown amps running the two dual-18" subs. A Pass Labs active crossover feeds the amps.
It comes out to something like 3600 watts per channel. :icon_twisted:
He said the Crowns "destroyed" the Atmosphere tube amps in all areas except a touch of midrange bloom provided by the tubes.
This is a serious system with top of the line source and preamps, his vinyl setup is worth around $25k itsself... the Crowns reminded me alot of NCore 1200s that sell for $9500+
And, you can get the amps for as little as $431.13 online, $499 being a typical "street price"... without bridging them they are "only" 375W into 8 ohms.
He also said his buddy with Maggie 3.7s (I think that's the right model ?) had the biggest Pass Labs amp on them and the Crowns easily beat out the Pass Labs amp!
Then we have the low-powered TI amps being sold for under $100 beating out basic SET amps in the $1-2k range...
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This topic is really interesting but was stopped for long time. Since then many changes, is the Ncore still game changer?***
It never was. It's a superbly measuring amp design, to be sure. There's nothing wrong with preferring to support the state of the art, even if the superior measured performance means squat in terms of audible differences.
But sonically the best one can say about Ncore (or UcD for that matter) is that an amp competently utilizing one of the Hypex modules sounds exactly like a competent AB amp while offering large improvements in energy efficiency and power/size ratio.
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A friend of mine brought over his NCore Mono blocks to my house to run with my Magnepan 1.6's and they sounded dull and flat compared to my Pass X250 amp. He got rid of them in favor of an AVA 400R which is much more musical and dynamic. I also have a Class D CDA 254 kit amp that sounds good but not as good as my Parasound A21. It has more air and transparency than the A21 but thats about it.
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A friend of mine brought over his NCore Mono blocks to my house to run with my Magnepan 1.6's and they sounded dull and flat compared to my Pass X250 amp. He got rid of them in favor of an AVA 400R which is much more musical and dynamic. I also have a Class D CDA 254 kit amp that sounds good but not as good as my Parasound A21. It has more air and transparency than the A21 but thats about it.
Right. And I sold my $16k Class A mono blocks in favor of the NC400's.
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It all comes down to which class d, or which class b,there are good ones and bad ones in everything,class d may be small but uses intergrated circuits with lots of active devices inside these draw current at idle,compared to class b which is more efficient at idle and less complex,yes class d may be more efficient at output power but class b is close there,I personally dont like ICs because i have no control over whats going on inside there,also class d may be cheap compared to solid state and tubes and with more power o/p,that is the case also with class b ICs which are used in low end,with the rest we have hum with class d ultra sonics
you dont want to go there trust me!... :green:
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It's an exciting time when inexpensive class D amps are competition for expensive class A amps.
Those Crown amps also have crossovers and gain adjustments built in, I'm definitely going to try one for the lows paired with my SET amp in an active setup vs it (and other amps) powering the whole speaker with a passive xo... seems like a good alternative to using a plate amp for subwoofer duty, probably much better quality and a more flexible crossover vs a typical plate amp. They had great control over those big 18" subs.
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Crown XLS Drivecore 2000 Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_F749Ngzc0
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Here is a full review of the Crown Amp.
http://www.arccinema.com/crown-xls-drivecore-amplifier-review/
It would be an interesting amp to try. These are selling on Ebay used for around $300, one went for less than $250. You won't lose a lot of money if you don't like the sound.
TI did have a hand in developing this Crown amp
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Right. And I sold my $16k Class A mono blocks in favor of the NC400's.
I'm always perplexed by the comments you make about other's choices/opinions. :scratch:
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Right. And I sold my $16k Class A mono blocks in favor of the NC400's.
What ever! The Ncores were dull and flat in comparison. I have no interest in belittling Ncore amps but they did not cut the mustard in my system. My Pass X250 was light years better. The AVA 400R is also a huge step up so much so that my friend who is a member of AC bought the 400R to run with his Magnepan 1.7's and the ncores are sitting on a shelf waiting to be sold!
Maybe in your system the Ncores shine.
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The one issue with class D is they can be "tweaky" and respond strongly to the rest of the system, including cables and AC power. The Crown amps specifically made efforts to address the sensitivity to AC power in their power supply design.
It does not surprise me one bit that the same class D amp would be great in one system and fall flat in another. This is one of the areas where D amps need improvements imo. When I sell cables to customers with D amps sometimes I get results that just don't make sense and don't match the experience of everyone else. They can react unpredictably to changes in a system.
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What ever! The Ncores were dull and flat in comparison. I have no interest in belittling Ncore amps but they did not cut the mustard in my system. My Pass X250 was light years better. The AVA 400R is also a huge step up so much so that my friend who is a member of AC bought the 400R to run with his Magnepan 1.7's and the ncores are sitting on a shelf waiting to be sold!
Maybe in your system the Ncores shine.
Exactly my point.
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Ncore amps are like a potentially perfect 'significant other'. Unless you, or your vendor, has devoted the requisite time playing 'slap and tickle' with her, she'll never provide your desired subjective responses.
Specifically, the ac and signal cabling internal (and external) to the amp can preserve and enhance the already excellent bass and treble behavior, while delivering much of that subjectively missing midrange density. Similarly, you've go to figure out how to mount her correctly. My Nc400 has responded with differing levels of enthusiasm to Stillpoints, Synergistic MIGs, and simple laminated bamboo footers, alone and in various combinations. It depends on how you've implemented her enclosure.
If you want to hear an Ncore implemented that IMO does it right, listen to one implemented by our own Mike Galusha.
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Yeah, footers on class D amps (and power distribution) make a larger difference than I would have ever expected. Try Herbie's iso-cups with various balls, they beat out everything I've tried, but I'm not going NEAR stillpoints! :lol:
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I think the NCore has been well represented and discussed to death. I'd like to hear more about the Crown DriveCore. Most of what I've read about them has been positive but from the 'anti-audiophile' crowd.
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From the What's Best forum 2011:
The Harman Drive Core amplifier chip is a completely in-house design done through Crown engineering. The only thing we used TI for was their expertise in IC Chip manufacturing. There are several patents on the chip design, although the basic topology is a Class D output stage. The Drive Core technology is used in several places, including the Lexicon DD-8, and several Crown amplifiers. There are 2 chips, one is a complete amp on a chip that includes an output stage that is capable of delivering 75 - 150 watts into 8ohms (depending on power supply and application requirements) and is table to 2 ohms, and the only thing that is really needed is a power supply and an input stage. The first use of the technology was in the Lexus LFA supercar. The requirements were high output, small size, high efficiency (greater then 90%), and great sound. Moving the input and output stages onto a single IC allowed much tiger tolerances of the clock and triangle wave form generator that is the heart of all digital amp designs, and often the cause of the "Class D" sound some people don't like. There is also a version that is everything without the high output stage (the input, waveform generator, feedback circuit, etc...) that can me used to drive higher output stages either Class D or our patented Class I, where more then 150 watts is needed.
thanks for the interest,
Todd Packer
Harman Luxury Audio Group
Field Application Engineer
[/i]
Also very lengthy thread on DriveCore here:
http://www.hometheaterequipment.com/mono-stereo-amps-59/crown-audio-xls-drivecore-series-amplifier-official-thread-1319/ (http://www.hometheaterequipment.com/mono-stereo-amps-59/crown-audio-xls-drivecore-series-amplifier-official-thread-1319/)
Seems the XLS 2000 has a lower noise floor so should be the base model for audiophiles...
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What ever! The Ncores were dull and flat in comparison. I have no interest in belittling Ncore amps but they did not cut the mustard in my system. My Pass X250 was light years better. The AVA 400R is also a huge step up so much so that my friend who is a member of AC bought the 400R to run with his Magnepan 1.7's and the ncores are sitting on a shelf waiting to be sold!
Uh huh. :lol:
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From the What's Best forum 2011:
Also very lengthy thread on DriveCore here:
http://www.hometheaterequipment.com/mono-stereo-amps-59/crown-audio-xls-drivecore-series-amplifier-official-thread-1319/ (http://www.hometheaterequipment.com/mono-stereo-amps-59/crown-audio-xls-drivecore-series-amplifier-official-thread-1319/)
Seems the XLS 2000 has a lower noise floor so should be the base model for audiophiles...
Noise is the bane of Class D. It needs to be extremely low or it's no good.
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Noise is the bane of Class D. It needs to be extremely low or it's no good.
It can be. Or just a mismatch in cables and components can make them perform well below expectation. That's why I wanted an AB amp for speaker testing but I think I'll pick up a Crown XLS 1500, the guy who owned the 2000s talked to Harman and they recommend the 1500 for more sensitive speakers. Noise was an extremely minor issue with the Crown 2000 / Pipedreams, only audible from an inch or two from the cones, and could be due to other factors. I've heard NCores be completely silent.
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Right. And I sold my $16k Class A mono blocks in favor of the NC400's.
So what does that prove? The speakers are VERY different. Measuring amps into resistors will not tell one much about the sonic attributes of the amp into any given speaker load.
So, if you like the Ncore better with your speakers, that's cool. It's also cool that someone else was not happy with NCore on their speakers.
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So what does that prove? The speakers are VERY different. Measuring amps into resistors will not tell one much about the sonic attributes of the amp into any given speaker load.
So, if you like the Ncore better with your speakers, that's cool. It's also cool that someone else was not happy with NCore on their speakers.
I'm not trying to prove anything. It's strictly saying that what works for one might not work for another.
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I'm not trying to prove anything. It's strictly saying that what works for one might not work for another.
This is universal for every system.
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Amen :thumb:
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The one issue with class D is they can be "tweaky" and respond strongly to the rest of the system, including cables and AC power.***
Gee I wonder where that came from.
***When I sell cables***
Oh, that explains it. Salesmen like their tall tales.
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That was an incredibly rude personal attack DS-21. But if you want to read that into it, have fun... :thumb:
Sorry to be here sharing my experience with class D amps, what is it you're doing here exactly?
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Yeah, footers on class D amps (and power distribution) make a larger difference than I would have ever expected.
Dave could you elaborate on the type of power distribution you are referring to?
Thanks,
Chris
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Dave could you elaborate on the type of power distribution you are referring to?
Thanks,
Chris
I was trying the SurgeX I'm refurbing/modding at a friend's place and I stuck 30 duro (very soft) Sorbothane hemisphere footers on it. This produced a sound with a sense of ease and refinement with a very quiet background, but it's a little on the dark side, which works great with my system but was a little too dark in my friend's system. It made things sound a little less exciting on some tracks. He suggested trying some different footers and had Black Diamond Racing cones and pucks, and they both changed the character of the system quite a bit vs Sorbothane. They both made the sound more vibrant and exciting, the cones were a bit thin and the pucks were just about perfect in his system. As a result I plan on shipping them with the Sorbothane as well as another alternative.. the BDR pucks are a little pricey but I'll be trying some of Herbie's products, wood blocks, as well as a wood stand to hold the unit vertically instead of horizontally.
I have tried Herbie's isocups and various balls that pair with them on my amp, preamp and DAC with great success but the changes I heard with the power distribution system are far greater that with my other components. The results definitely took me by surprise!
Class D amp also respond strongly to different footers, on the level of the power distribution in many cases.
*I do not sell footers or any sort of vibration control devices :lol:*
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If anyone is interested in what is under the hood on these Crown amps,watch this youtube video. There looks like plenty of room for the DIY'ers to do their stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_F749Ngzc0
What is also special on the Crown amp is the high pass and low pass filters. The mids and highs should sound better if you are using the high pass EQ on your main speakers and using a powered sub for the lows. The Virtue amp I use to own sounded much better hooked this way.
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That was an incredibly rude personal attack DS-21. But if you want to read that into it, have fun... :thumb:
Dave, DS-21 is correct - you are using a non-commercial circle for commercial promotion. Please stop doing it. Thanks ;)
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Dave,
Thanks for the response. :thumb:
Chris
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Dave, DS-21 is correct - you are using a non-commercial circle for commercial promotion. Please stop doing it. Thanks ;)
What? I don't see it and think you are being unfair to Dave. (Who I don't know, and have never purchased any of his products.) IMO, you owe him an apology.
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You can get Crown refurbs on Ebay directly from Harmon.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=harman-direct&hash=item1c474aa023&item=121455157283&pt=US_Pro_Audio_Amplifiers&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xxls&_nkw=xls&_sacat=0
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John R has a point if Dave is selling Herbie's footers which is what Dave praised :lol: otherwise John R is mistaken :nono:
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Thank you Tom :thumb:- I will get one- need a sub amp anyways. If they come very close to my NC400- then we have the 'next best thingy' product ..
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Thank you Tom :thumb:- I will get one- need a sub amp anyways. If they come very close to my NC400- then we have the 'next best thingy' product ..
Yeah rascal, let me know how it sounds. I have not given fully up on Class D, I still would like to have one. The Ncores never worked at my house, but I have very dirty AC.
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Yeah rascal, let me know how it sounds. I have not given fully up on Class D, I still would like to have one. The Ncores never worked at my house, but I have very dirty AC.
The dirtiest!
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Did someone say Sorbothane Hemispheres?
I use these under components that have hard drives, CD/DVD players, big fans or humming power transformers.
Sorbothane Hemisphere Foot Bumpers
http://www.edmundoptics.com/optomechanics/optical-breadboard-components-laboratory-tables/laboratory-tables-breadboards/sorbothane-mounts/1618
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Did someone say Sorbothane Hemispheres?
I use these under components that have hard drives, CD/DVD players, big fans or humming power transformers.
Sorbothane Hemisphere Foot Bumpers
http://www.edmundoptics.com/optomechanics/optical-breadboard-components-laboratory-tables/laboratory-tables-breadboards/sorbothane-mounts/1618
If you set your components on top of moongel pads, it will even sound better. Even expensive stillpoints won't beat it.
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Tom, have you ever tried the Uberbuss? They work very well.
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Did someone say Sorbothane Hemispheres?
I use these under components that have hard drives, CD/DVD players, big fans or humming power transformers.
Sorbothane Hemisphere Foot Bumpers
http://www.edmundoptics.com/optomechanics/optical-breadboard-components-laboratory-tables/laboratory-tables-breadboards/sorbothane-mounts/1618
I was really surprised at how much of an effect Sorbothane had on the sound. Not necessarily good or bad...
Tom, I am going to have to order some moongel pads, they've been on my watch list on ebay for the past few weeks since I heard you first mention them. Thanks for the tip!
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Guys does anyone know if sound quality is consistent across the Crown XLS DriveCore series? I need a cheap(er) amp for the new smaller system I am putting together and the 1000 model seems potentially intriguing.
Thanks,
Jim
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The 1000 model is noisier. I have heard the 1500 recommended if you don't need the power / have higher efficiency speakers.
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Dave, I am interested in your thoughts re cable design and pairing with Ncore amplifiers. Because Class D amps all rely on L-C output filters, I would expect that any cables which which exhibit high levels of capacitance or inductance could change the RF profile getting through to the cables. Additionally, I suspect that some cables which exhibit high levels of C or L may even create resonance when combined with the output filter. It would seem wise to use a cable with a balanced level of L and C, and as little of both as possible.
Also, since the output filter on Class D amp is never perfect, and high frequency noise does show up on the output, a cable with a geometry designed to limit the antenna effect (to reduce RF broadcast which may be picked up by components and other wires) would seem to be a wise choice for use with class D amplifiers.
I have quite a bit of experience with ICE, uCD, and Ncore amps, and I would suggest that anyone auditioning these amps make sure to have them powered up for at least a few hours, if not overnight, before doing any critical listening. Without extended warm up, none of these amps sound their best-often I think quick listening to a cold class D amp is responsible for many negative first impressions.
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Actually the LC output filter will be less effective with lower inductance cables. Not having noise on the speaker cables means improved feedback, improved distortion, etc.
Inductors often resonate on their own as well.
Ric's doubling of WIMA caps lowers inductance of the filter and improves the performance. "Needed" or not.
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The 1000 model is noisier. I have heard the 1500 recommended if you don't need the power / have higher efficiency speakers.
Thanks Dave!
-Jim
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I just picked up a used once 2000 off of Ebay for $300. :) I will compare it to my Job amp running my Zellatons and report back. The Job amp is actually the very first amp on my dirty AC to never me any problems, especially fatiguing headaches.
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Nice grab Tom :thumb:
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Tom, have you ever tried the Uberbuss? They work very well.
I tried their battery buss, but I still preferred the sound without it.
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Dave, I am interested in your thoughts re cable design and pairing with Ncore amplifiers. Because Class D amps all rely on L-C output filters, I would expect that any cables which which exhibit high levels of capacitance or inductance could change the RF profile getting through to the cables. Additionally, I suspect that some cables which exhibit high levels of C or L may even create resonance when combined with the output filter. It would seem wise to use a cable with a balanced level of L and C, and as little of both as possible.
Also, since the output filter on Class D amp is never perfect, and high frequency noise does show up on the output, a cable with a geometry designed to limit the antenna effect (to reduce RF broadcast which may be picked up by components and other wires) would seem to be a wise choice for use with class D amplifiers.
I have quite a bit of experience with ICE, uCD, and Ncore amps, and I would suggest that anyone auditioning these amps make sure to have them powered up for at least a few hours, if not overnight, before doing any critical listening. Without extended warm up, none of these amps sound their best-often I think quick listening to a cold class D amp is responsible for many negative first impressions.
It seems like the performance of cables paired with class D amps is less predictable vs tube or transistor amps. Cables also have more of an effect on the sound of a system with many class D amps. I'd agree with using cables that don't have excessive L or C , which should be the case with some rare exceptions. I'm really not sure why class D amps seem to react to cabling (and vibration) more than other amps. As far as RF noise on the amps outputs, I have heard it's possible but it should be at very low levels. If the speaker cables are broadcasting RF shielding them would prevent that, but I doubt it's necessary. D amps can be tweaky but they do have a lot of potential, and the digital manipulation of AC power to make music is an accomplishment, those Crown amps weigh around 10 lbs and are putting out a lot of power with super high efficiency and good sound quality for a few hundred bucks. I can't see them beating a good tube amp on high efficiency speakers though... at least not yet. :)
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Dave, they use an oscillation to be shaped to the signal. Vibrations effect on a itty bitty oscillation? Yes, they do well with reduced vibrations.
Excessive L or C will always be bad. But even if you could have no L, you'd have new problems.
The relationship to "digital" is only that they switch on and off in a binary way on top of an AC signal. There's no 010101 sorts of data that is digital.
The PSU is another topic for class D....
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Have not read the posts, so if I post something already posted, please forgive me.
A simple check of the specs from:
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/UcD180HG_datasheet.pdf
we see this stat:
Frequency Response 10 - 50k Hz +0/-3dB. All loads
Unless a super high pass filter, with high slope, is incorporated, the low frequency response will alter the perception into the upper bass and lower midrange, if not higher.
Thus we see one variation from accuracy right away from the manufacturers own specs.
Notice this spec:
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
Frequency Response 0 50 kHz +0/-3dB. All loads.
Much better low frequency response, more accurate.
This is just one spec I quickly noticed. Again, if this has already been posted, please forgive me for reposting.
Cheers
Steve
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That was an incredibly rude personal attack DS-21.
How is a simple description of your post (someone who hawks mere wires promoting idiot mythology in support of his pecuniary interest) "an incredibly rude personal attack?
When salesman's not shilling I guess he has to be chagrined for being called out for shilling.
Sorry to be here sharing my experience with class D amps, what is it you're doing here exactly?
Hoping to read something about Class D amps, specifically to see if anyone has actually measured a Crown Drivecore to see if they're good class D (load invariant, like the Hypex, Icepower ASX2, and Anaview modules) or low-fi/sub-only class D (most everything else) not wade through some sales-hack's idiot myths about mere wires.
As for my experience with Class D amps, I recently bought a pair for my desktop system that have the potential for vastly superior sound than any discussed here so far, including the Ncores. (And the potential for vastly worse sound!)
They are the miniDSP PWR-ICE125.
The Class D amp part of them, admittedly, is as sonically transparent (competent amps have no sound at all, unless you strike them with a mallet or something, of course) as an Ncore or whatever. However, they also have a sophisticated DSP board that can be used to apply parametric EQ, and thus improve both the direct-field response (with appropriate EQ based on nearfield measurements) and modal region response (in a small area, with appropriate EQ based on listening position measurements). Another cool thing about them is that in my system they have no AD/DA loop, because they can take a digital in and share it. So it's digital from the computer to the mains plate, digital bridge from the mains plate to the sub plate. Now, Meyer and Moran pretty convincingly showed that a single AD/DA loop is not going to be audible in their AES-published study. However, it's certainly theoretically better NOT to have one.
Oh, and my digital wires are Monoprice's "3-pin DMX Lighting & AES/EBU Cable," which carry appropriate price tags for a commodity part such as a mere wire. They are at least equal to anything you sell, and possibly superior for this application because they meet ABS/EBU spec and who knows what spec the voodoo brew of some "audiophile" mere wire salesman meets.
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I just picked up a used once 2000 off of Ebay for $300. :) I will compare it to my Job amp running my Zellatons and report back. The Job amp is actually the very first amp on my dirty AC to never me any problems, especially fatiguing headaches.
Look forward to hearing your thoughts on it. I love the TPA but high/low pass features and extra power would open up a lot of options speaker wise...
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Class d grabs you at first but is unlistenable long term Had b c and red Dragon
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can anyone guess who has the most unlistenable Hifi on this thread?
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I really wanted to like them.But I was very surprised They were very clean souding.But unemotional
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Class d grabs you at first but is unlistenable long term Had b c and red Dragon
The amps you listened to may be unemotional. Not all Class D are the same. Funny the Class D amps I think are great are based on chips that very few companies are using e.g. Classdaudio.com/IR and TPA311X. They are mainly diy. Even though there is now a large fanbase building them. Don't know why there aren't more retail offerings out there. Such a shame.
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Ds21 there is no "mere part" of a system, the rest I will not address. I'm glad you found a system you enjoy :thumb:
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I just picked up a used once 2000 off of Ebay for $300. :) I will compare it to my Job amp running my Zellatons and report back. The Job amp is actually the very first amp on my dirty AC to never me any problems, especially fatiguing headaches.
I would also be interested in how that turns out. I just ordered a Crown Drivecore 1500 to try with my KEF LS50s...and the Job amp is said to also play nice with the KEFs.
And I have a question regarding class D amps (and the Crowns in particular) and bridging them to mono. Is there a reduction in sound quality as would normally be on a Class A/B amp, or not? As cheap as the Crowns are, it would be easy to swing two mono amps. Not necessarily for more power, but just better channel separation, etc.
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I really wanted to like them.But I was very surprised They were very clean souding.But unemotional
I would suggest that it is unhelpful to categorize all class D amplifiers together. It is doubtful that anyone on this thread has heard every possible implementation, and, as has been noted on the thread, many class D amps are sensitive to different speaker loads, wires, and vibration control. My own Ncore amps sound a lot better with some input wiring changes, for example.
No one would lump all class A/B or class A amplifiers together and characterize their sound one way. And I would never want an "emotional" amplifier, the amplifier should be neutral to allow the feeling of the music itself to come through. If the amplifier has emotion of its own, then it is coloring the sound and altering the music.
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My own Ncore amps sound a lot better with some input wiring changes, for example.
Can you elaborate on your approach to this? I've been eyeing upgrading my input wires as well.
I've enjoyed my n-cores from the start, but I found upgrading the wima caps to the "nuded" polys supplied by Ric Schultz made them notably more relaxed sounding, while losing none of their strengths. They are about as dead neutral sounding as anything I've heard, yet also very transparent and dynamic.
I've owned at least 10 "class D" amps over the past 15 years or so (still own a modded PS Audio Icepower amp, and a Magellan Tripath), and they all do sound different, and steadily better, IMO.
My audio buddies own "conventional" amps, such as big Berning tube amps, Bakun SS, Shindo SEs, etc., and guess what? They all sound great, and also different. In an overall sense, I can't say I prefer any of them over my n-cores, but I've gone to great lengths to tune the system cabling, etc., to get the results I like.
Is chocolate, vanilla, or balsamic vinegar better tasting? Context, of course, is key.
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No one would lump all class A/B or class A amplifiers together and characterize their sound one way.
Yet we see this all the time with class d. At this point, as soon as someone makes the all inclusive "class d amps are ________", I know immediately they haven't a clue and read no further.
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If your comment is for me I could care less I had two of good quality and they didnt stand extended listening. If u find different fine.
I could easily say the same to you because of yout liking them.But it seems you dont csre for others opins
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If your comment is for me I could care less I had two of good quality and they didnt stand extended listening. If u find different fine.
I could easily say the same to you because of yout liking them.But it seems you dont csre for others opins
well, I did quote you after all. There are opinions, and there are facts: the fact here is that if you want an amplifier which sounds "emotional", then you are looking for an amplifier which is adding color to the music, and not letting the actual intent of the music through.
An amplifier such as a well implemented Ncore build will reveal any flaws in the rest of the system, whereas a more forgiving amplifier may cover up flaws in the rest of the system. Even my Pass X150.5 is less revealing of system problems than my Ncore, and the Pass is not exactly a low resolution amp. Sometimes one may need to address problems when a higher resolution component is dropped in to an existing system.
Of course you are free to prefer whatever you might like, but making blanket statements referring to all class D amps based on hearing two specific amps is not a helpful opinion. I could say that all tube amps absolutely suck if I based my opinion of tube amps on hearing only two examples of such, and I have heard plenty of tube which sounded great as well.
jon: I changed the signal input wiring on my Ncores to 21.5 gauge Cardas litz wire, I use this wire a lot for signal path applications.
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jon: I changed the signal input wiring on my Ncores to 21.5 gauge Cardas litz wire, I use this wire a lot for signal path applications.
try some occ silver, 28 gauge, in cotton, in a 8 conductor braid....best I have heard and I have tried a lot...
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There are excellent, mediocre, and poor sounding amps of all classes. So, for arguments sake of this thread, let’s stick to the amps that most audiophiles hold in high regard, and compare the merits and challenges of each. For tube amps, would also include DIY, as some of the BEST sounding tube amps I have heard were custom made types.
For Class D, the best sounding unit I have heard was the Yamaha MX-D1. The audiophiles I know who have heard it all have been very impressed with its sound. Although it’s not the most recent design, it remains competitive with other more current Class D designs. The MX-D1 has a number of propriety design aspects that makes it an excellent performer.
What really gets difficult is how to capture the differences in sonic presentations between any two amps, regardless of operating class. Most all modern amps measure pretty well, and show fairly flat frequency responses into a 8 or 4 ohm resistive load. Yet, we all know that the amps DO sound different from one another. With some speakers, the differences in sound between amps may not be very noticeable. Yet with other speakers, the differences are more pronounced. There have been several lengthy discussions about sound versus measurements over on another Audio website. One of the engineers who participate in the threads stated that he personally did not think the current set of measurements offered up fully captured the sonic presentation from a given amplifier. He thought that measurements could be developed to capture these details, but we currently do not have them available commercially.
I have subjectively noticed that the Class D amps that I have owned or heard DO present the music slightly different to other topologies. Some aspects seemed as good as or better than other topologies (such as a clear midrange and vocals), while other aspects were not quite as good (2D vs. 3D, high treble hardness, some listener fatigue). ALL amps deviate (slightly) from absolute neutrality, and the speakers used with the amps have a far great effect on the sound than the amps. Devices like the power cube can provide a better set of measurements of amp performance, but even that doesn’t quite capture the full story of what it is that is heard.
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try some occ silver, 28 gauge, in cotton, in a 8 conductor braid....best I have heard and I have tried a lot...
Hmm, good ideas. Thanks, guys. How did you handle the connectors?
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There are excellent, mediocre, and poor sounding amps of all classes. So, for arguments sake of this thread, let’s stick to the amps that most audiophiles hold in high regard, and compare the merits and challenges of each. For tube amps, would also include DIY, as some of the BEST sounding tube amps I have heard were custom made types.
For Class D, the best sounding unit I have heard was the Yamaha MX-D1. The audiophiles I know who have heard it all have been very impressed with its sound. Although it’s not the most recent design, it remains competitive with other more current Class D designs. The MX-D1 has a number of propriety design aspects that makes it an excellent performer.
What really gets difficult is how to capture the differences in sonic presentations between any two amps, regardless of operating class. Most all modern amps measure pretty well, and show fairly flat frequency responses into a 8 or 4 ohm resistive load. Yet, we all know that the amps DO sound different from one another. With some speakers, the differences in sound between amps may not be very noticeable. Yet with other speakers, the differences are more pronounced. There have been several lengthy discussions about sound versus measurements over on another Audio website. One of the engineers who participate in the threads stated that he personally did not think the current set of measurements offered up fully captured the sonic presentation from a given amplifier. He thought that measurements could be developed to capture these details, but we currently do not have them available commercially.
I have subjectively noticed that the Class D amps that I have owned or heard DO present the music slightly different to other topologies. Some aspects seemed as good as or better than other topologies (such as a clear midrange and vocals), while other aspects were not quite as good (2D vs. 3D, high treble hardness, some listener fatigue). ALL amps deviate (slightly) from absolute neutrality, and the speakers used with the amps have a far great effect on the sound than the amps. Devices like the power cube can provide a better set of measurements of amp performance, but even that doesn’t quite capture the full story of what it is that is heard.
:thumb:
class-d is relatively new type of amplifier,it hasnt been tested in the marketplace,many are eager to try them in high power,will see how they go in the future?
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Hmm, good ideas. Thanks, guys. How did you handle the connectors?
For the input wiring I got some of the same Molex connectors as the OE wiring uses (from Mouser), and I used gold plated inserts. I was able to hand terminate to these very carefully, first crimping with very fine needle nose pliers, and then following up with solder to make the joint gas free. The Molex connectors are actually pretty good with copper contacts with gold flash.
For the speaker wiring I removed the stock fittings from the boards, as they are brass, and soldered my speaker wiring direct into the board, I did the same with the AC input wiring. 15.5 Cardas Litz for the AC, 11.5 Cardas Litz for speaker output.
BTW, just spent about 3.5 hours listening to Channel Classics DSD recordings using the Ncore amp, certainly sounds sweet, with excellent tonality on all orchestral instruments, no fatigue, no annoying sounds, just very clear, sweet, detailed, dynamic and spacious sound.
edit, system context: Custom LiFePO4 battery powered Sonore server (linux)-USB-DIY Buffalo DAC-DIY Ncore stereo amp-Focus Audio FS-888 Signature speakers, DIY parallel power conditioner, Nordost Frey analog cables (balanced), Nordost Blue Heaven USB cable, DIY AC cabling.
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class-d is relatively new type of amplifier,it hasnt been tested in the marketplace,many are eager to try them in high power,will see how they go in the future?
I guess it depends on the term "relatively", but it surely has been tested in the marketplace. B&O has been manufacturing and selling ICEpower amplifiers for 13 years and Hypex has been manufacturing and selling UcD amplifiers for 11 years.
Both are on their 3rd or 4th generation circuits and both have sold 1000W amplifiers for a number of years. There has been broad acceptance in the pro and portable consumer markets, and refinement has been steadily progressing and gaining greater acceptance in the audiophile market. And there's no reason to believe it won't progress further in this energy-dependent world.
Steve
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Hi Everybody,
Thanks for sharing.
We all know there's no perfect amps for all kind of music & favor. Fan of rock n' roll/heavymetal will ask for dynamic, 3D,... while sweet tonality,... are needed for vocal/country.
If you guys don't mind pls also sharing info about your system (spkers, sources), music you are listening to as well.
Thanks again.
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I just won a Crown XLS 1500 on ebay for $262... should be interesting to try out! :green:
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I just won a Crown XLS 1500 on ebay for $262... should be interesting to try out! :green:
My 2000 won't be here til Monday, you might get your 1500 first. :roll:
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My 2000 won't be here til Monday, you might get your 1500 first. :roll:
Looks like mine will be here Monday too. :)
I also just got the moongel pads, since they are thin I'm thinking of trying them under a block of wood that the component is sitting on. The 30 durometer Sorbothane is definitely a little dark sounding but very quiet too. If I can keep that quiet background with a bit more of a vibrant sound that would be great...
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I received a Crown XLS 1500 yesterday from GC, will be hooking it up today. I will be interested if the DSP processing adds any negatives to the sound quality, I've read that using the Stereo Bypass mode is best. But employing the high pass for my speakers would be nice, if it didn't muck up the transparency.
A fellow on another forum actually switches the high pass on or off, depending on if he is listening to high volume rock, or something like jazz. He has the 2000 model. So evidently he feels there is a gain to have it bypassed.
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Tiny amp, on top of the one it may replace. Unlike most other pro equipment I've bought, this thing comes with a fairly short power cord (36"). If one wants to use bananas on it, the little plugs in the binding posts need to be removed. I used a long, sharp pointed wood screw for that.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/912/fpipZu.jpg)
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jk@home, DaveC113, and OzarkTom,
When posting your listening impressions could you also include your associated gear?
Thanks,
Chris
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Squeezebox Classic > CI VDA-2 > diy Dodds preamp/tube buffer > Crown (or Aragon) amp > KEF LS50s (supplemented with passive subs driven by DBX x-over to Yamaha P3500S pro amps.
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I use XLS 2500. Balanced inputs from Benchmark DAC-1 and speakon outputs to JBL PRX412M speakers. Full range, no DSP so can't comment on whether the DSP would affect the transparency. I have the gain controls on the Crown set at about 2:00 rather than wide-open, so I can get maximum adjustable range and best channel-to-channel tracking from my DAC-1's volume control. Underneath the amp I use Sims Navcom Silencers.
Previously used the amp with Magnepan 1.7s and before that Klipsch Forte II. After having bought it and used it, sold some of my other amps such as Bryston 3B-ST, Yamaha P5000s and Audio Refinement Multi-2. I like something that runs cool that I can keep on 24/7 and I found it a good match with my other speakers, past/present/future.
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I stumbled upon this thread. The Crown drivecore amps are interesting. Please post listening impressions. I am considering buying two and using the built in crossovers.
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I conducted extensive listening tests with a high end Class D power amp (Yamaha MX-D1), which is as good or better sounding than any Class D amp made to date (and I have heard most of the upper end Class D offerings out there). I compared it to my reference SS Amp (Electrocompaniet AW2-120), and a custom 110 watt tube amp with 12SN7 input/1625 output. All listening was conducted with ATC-SCM19 speakers, and a SVS SB13 Ultra subwoofer. The speakers are among the very best in a moderate sized room regardless of price, largely to the 9kg mid drivers. All inputs were a Oppo BD-95 tube modwright, a Wavelength Audio COSINE DAC, and a Electrocomapniet ECC-1 CD player. Music was classical SACD, SACD/CD Jazz, and SACD/CD/Blu Ray Rock.
http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-and-av-speakers/atc-scm19-hi-fi-98230/review (http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-and-av-speakers/atc-scm19-hi-fi-98230/review)
The take-away is that all three amps sounded excellent, with different strengths and challenges. The Class D amp did play a bit louder than the other two amps. It was also clean with good dynamics. Compared to the other two amps, the Class D was more 2D, had slightly less low level detail, and lacked a bit of bass slam (but it was very clean). The tube setup sounded more like live music (as only tubes can with the presence region), and the Electrocompaniet had incredible low level detail, with a wide and deep soundstage that presents a reproduction with real depth.
So, as always, it "Horses for Courses"
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...the Class D was more 2D, had slightly less low level detail, and lacked a bit of bass slam (but it was very clean). ..
Did a little bit of listening today, one thing that is jumping out so far to me on the Crown is that soundstage does seem more 2d than the Aragon. Not in a big way, mainly the farthest edges of the soundstage. And this is in a treated dedicated room. But some stuff sounds great, definitely very clean and detailed sounding.
The Crown is probably the best sounding budget pro amp I have in the house (also have Mackies and Yamaha P series.) With the right speaker they may be fine (thinking dipoles, like Maggies). Not sure "as is" with the KEFs though. Need more time to fiddle with it. Since it is a sat/sub system, bass is not an issue.
Actually the low level playback with this amp is better than the Aragon. This is a biggie for me, as I do alot of late night listening.
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It's probably been mentioned.... TPA3116, it's impressive not at the price range, but altogether in class D.
Bel Canto's monoblocks don't deliver any kind of texture and timbre like the 3116.
AND, no, it doesn't perform well on cheap power supplies or without quality parts.
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jk@home did you do a careful level match? Tiny bit of change makes a perceptible difference.
I am getting my 2000 on Tues :P
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jk@home did you do a careful level match? Tiny bit of change makes a perceptible difference.
I am getting my 2000 on Tues :P
So far I have tried setting the Crown's level controllers on the 3 o'clock and full open positions. The voltage needed for full output rating on the Crown is actually slightly less than the Aragon. Hiss at both settings is very low, not audible 6"+ from the KEFs drivers, which have an 85dB sensitivity . The full output level sets the preamp's control where I want them, (and close to where they were with the other amp), 9 to 2 o'clock, depending on the source. But I can experiment with that some more.
Also the fan...I noticed it would come on and off right away, depending on the signal. BUT, this isn't like the loud fans that are in most other pro amps. You actually have to place your ear up to the fan opening to hear (and feel) it. A non issue. :thumb:
For the money, this is a great sounding amp. The 2d vs 3d thing on my part may be a tonal issue, the KEFS have a frequency curve that doesn't play well with amps that have flat frequency responses (mainly showing up in the upper mid-range/lower treble region).
So I have more work to do, with cables, EQ and such, to see if it can be ironed out. This was suppose to be a temporarily upgrade till the funds were available for a more expensive amp, would like to see it through. Leaving town today, so will have to wait till next week.
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I use XLS 2500. Balanced inputs from Benchmark DAC-1 and speakon outputs to JBL PRX412M speakers.
I ordered a pair of Neutrik NL4FC 4 pole speakon connectors from PE to try on this amp. Neat connector, my Dodds unit uses the power version for the 12 volt feed. I'm using Canare 4S11 speaker cable, so hoping there is a way to use all four conductors to the amp.
Right now using Audioquest spade to banana adapters on spade connectors, and it is tight, had to insert rubber gasket pieces between the banana/adapters to make sure nothing shorted out.
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Did a little bit of listening today, one thing that is jumping out so far to me on the Crown is that soundstage does seem more 2d than the Aragon. Not in a big way, mainly the farthest edges of the soundstage. And this is in a treated dedicated room. But some stuff sounds great, definitely very clean and detailed sounding.
The Crown is probably the best sounding budget pro amp I have in the house (also have Mackies and Yamaha P series.) With the right speaker they may be fine (thinking dipoles, like Maggies). Not sure "as is" with the KEFs though. Need more time to fiddle with it. Since it is a sat/sub system, bass is not an issue.
Actually the low level playback with this amp is better than the Aragon. This is a biggie for me, as I do alot of late night listening.
Thanks, the 2D presentation may be a result of reduction in fine detail, this happens when the spatial cues get smoothed out by something. So there may be less hall echoes and reverb trails... or maybe it's different in other ways?
One purpose I bought it for is to make the low-end of a 2-way speaker active with it's built-in crossover, which will be set at around 150 Hz if the high end rolls off naturally or possibly 800 Hz with a simple first order crossover on the highs... this is assuming I ever get the woofers I ordered from Audio Elegance 2.5 months ago... :duh:
Oh yeah, my payment for the 1500 went to "Lone Wolf Audio". Hmmm....
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Hm, if the Crown is anything like the TPA3116 and other Class D chips I've encountered they need time to break in. They always sound kind of flat in the beginning.
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Tiny amp, on top of the one it may replace. Unlike most other pro equipment I've bought, this thing comes with a fairly short power cord (36"). If one wants to use bananas on it, the little plugs in the binding posts need to be removed. I used a long, sharp pointed wood screw for that.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/912/fpipZu.jpg)
Hello JK,
Are you saying you prefer the performance of the crown over the 8008 ..?
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JK, thanks for posting your first impressions. Differences in amps are so subtle these days.
Sometimes a slight volume difference, or the source impedance make things sound well...different. I look forward to your further comments.. Thank you.
Steve
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.. this is assuming I ever get the woofers I ordered from Audio Elegance 2.5 months ago... :duh:
Oh yeah, my payment for the 1500 went to "Lone Wolf Audio". Hmmm....
Good luck with the AE woofers. I was part of a group buy several years or so ago and it was about year and a half before before my TD15Ms' were delivered. :( Neverthless, don't worry... I'm sure things are better nowadays especially since you're not in a group buy; AE has never been known for speedy service.
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Yes, I would also like to hear if you prefer the Crown over the 8008.
I had a 4004mk1 but my Audio Research 150.2 amp just killed it in the bass so I sold off the 4004.
I could do pro amps, just never tried any. What about the fans, are thy noisy?
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I conducted extensive listening tests with a high end Class D power amp (Yamaha MX-D1), which is as good or better sounding than any Class D amp made to date (and I have heard most of the upper end Class D offerings out there). I compared it to my reference SS Amp (Electrocompaniet AW2-120), and a custom 110 watt tube amp with 12SN7 input/1625 output. All listening was conducted with ATC-SCM19 speakers, and a SVS SB13 Ultra subwoofer. The speakers are among the very best in a moderate sized room regardless of price, largely to the 9kg mid drivers. All inputs were a Oppo BD-95 tube modwright, a Wavelength Audio COSINE DAC, and a Electrocomapniet ECC-1 CD player. Music was classical SACD, SACD/CD Jazz, and SACD/CD/Blu Ray Rock.
http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-and-av-speakers/atc-scm19-hi-fi-98230/review (http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-and-av-speakers/atc-scm19-hi-fi-98230/review)
The take-away is that all three amps sounded excellent, with different strengths and challenges. The Class D amp did play a bit louder than the other two amps. It was also clean with good dynamics. Compared to the other two amps, the Class D was more 2D, had slightly less low level detail, and lacked a bit of bass slam (but it was very clean). The tube setup sounded more like live music (as only tubes can with the presence region), and the Electrocompaniet had incredible low level detail, with a wide and deep soundstage that presents a reproduction with real depth.
So, as always, it "Horses for Courses"
Best when comparing to level match.........
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Best when comparing to level match.........
Some of the listening was level matched...No difference in conclusions.
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My Crown XLS 1500 showed up early. :icon_twisted:
Of course, the first thing is to take the cover off... this amp is made on a single PCB with lots of surface mount components, and all connectors are PCB mount so there is no internal wiring with the exception of 2 pieces of wire a couple inches long going to and from the circuit breaker and a few inches of wire to power the cooling fan. And a short ribbon connecting the front panel PCB to the main PCB. The steel chassis could use some damping, and there is already damping added to the inductors and larger capacitors on the PCB, which also serves to stabilize these larger components and make it less likely to be damaged due to rough handling. There are no footers included, so this is another place to do some experimentation. Mods that would upgrade connectors in the chassis could be done but might be more trouble than it's worth with the exception of the binding posts, you can't use spades with them and these wouldn't be hard to replace.
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Some of the listening was level matched...No difference in conclusions.
Thanks for the clarification ........
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My Crown XLS 1500 showed up early. :icon_twisted:
Well, run it through its's paces, and tell us what you think.
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Well, run it through its's paces, and tell us what you think.
Of course... I think it'll need some break in being brand new but I'll see what it sounds like later this evening, I just have it plugged in and turned on right now.
Even if it doesn't cut the mustard used full-range, with it's built-in 24 dB crossover it should make a nice subwoofer amp when bridged to produce over 1kW into 8 ohms.
5 WPC EL34 SET vs 300 WPC class D... :) The only issue is I have a ton more gain then needed with my 20 dB gain tube preamp, the pre can put out 20 V RMS no problem and will hit nearly 35V before it starts looking ugly. My EL34 SET has about -5 dB gain as it has no driver section.
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Of course, the first thing is to take the cover off...
Spoken like a true diy'er :lol:
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I think the Crown amplifiers are what Ed over at The Horn Shoppe is using to power his uber-subwoofer bucket. It would make sense he's so pleased with them, if they got the slamming accuracy spoken of among some here.
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So far it's about what I expected from hearing the amp on my friend's Pipedreams, he uses the XLS 2000s in bridged mono to run the midranges with no crossover, then adds highs and lows where the midrange drivers naturally roll off using a Pass active xo, another pair of Crown amps for the subs and a 30 wpc class A transistor amp for the ribbon tweeters.
It sounds like a good class D amp, and a big one. Definitely brings to mind NCore as being the closest thing I'vbe heard.
On a macro scale this amp is absolutely first class and pretty amazing, it's making my speakers do things in the mid and upper bass regions I never thought were possible, dynamics are off the charts and will make you jump. In that sense, playing at higher volumes, this amp is clearly superior to my SET amp, and not just by a little bit. I've tried Tom's TBI and used other SS amps on my Omega Super3 XRS speakers and so far the Crowns are easily the best, by far.
On the other hand, the SET amp makes the sound very natural and effortless, more realistic and (for now) lets through more fine detail. It can't do the same thing as the Crown with bass or dynamics at high volumes and won't play as loud either, the speakers can probably take 20-30 watts and the SET amp is 5 watts.
I said "for now" because it's new and I can't make any judgements about how it sounds in detail before it burns-in. IF it's presentation and fine detail improves with break in it'll be a great amp, if not it will still be a great amp for subwoofers or the low end of an active speaker system, which I will try... and I think that's going to be it's best use. But I'm hoping it'll open up and sound as beautiful as my SET after break-in. :D
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Maybe it needs some modifications.
I'm sure they got the circuit dialed, but let's get real, how much effort do you expect in refinement for their market?
Looks like they're pretty serious, as far as doing everything right, with cheap parts.
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd502/hipchicks002/Picture167.jpg)
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Maybe it needs some modifications.
I'm sure they got the circuit dialed, but let's get real, how much effort do you expect in refinement for their market?
Looks like they're pretty serious, as far as doing everything right, with cheap parts.
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd502/hipchicks002/Picture167.jpg)
Those internals vaguely remind me of the JVC RX-D702B digital receiver I had once. I really liked that JVC's sound, but the fan noise really detracted from the enjoyment, as the fan kicked in very early even if the amp wasn't hot. Since people are reporting the Crown's fan hardly kicks in, that is a definite plus :D
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Looks like the Crown amps are at least very good performers. The 1500 series on up have 6 Db less noise than the 1000 series amp. I'm wondering if it's noticable. 6 Db is a significant number. Anybody get to try both of them? I doubt if anyone would notice at high volumes, but with high efficiency speakers at low to moderate volumes, who knows?
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SO who's going to be the first to start the process of turning one into something better?
They appear to actually have more than adequate output filtration!
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I said "for now" because it's new and I can't make any judgements about how it sounds in detail before it burns-in. IF it's presentation and fine detail improves with break in it'll be a great amp, if not it will still be a great amp for subwoofers or the low end of an active speaker system, which I will try... and I think that's going to be it's best use. But I'm hoping it'll open up and sound as beautiful as my SET after break-in. :D
Since these Crown amps have gain controls, can you bypass the preamp?
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Since these Crown amps have gain controls, can you bypass the preamp?
That might be nice, but you might need your own buffer else the input impedance might be too low.
Crown hasn't released anything about the internals yet.
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It's input impedance is 10k RCA and 20k XLR, I'm using RCA. So far I've just turned the gain to about 9 o'clock and it works fine with my tube preamp, it has cathode follower outputs so a couple hundred ohms output impedance... not sure I'd want to try using the gain controls as a volume adjustment.
The amp is sounding much better than it was yesterday. I put in on wood blocks with the moongel pads between the wood and the component and a 1 lb brass weight on top with some damping material. The footers and weight did help.
One thing that's interesting is that it accentuates details, it seems to make them louder and more noticeable. Stuff that was more in the background is brought forward.
I'll give it a while longer before I make any calls but already it's pretty good. I'd like to hear it next to an NCore, that's what it reminds me of the most.
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Some speculate it has an incredible amount of feedback. The feedback parts may have a lot to do with detail bloat. (If there are any)
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it works fine with my tube preamp
So did NCores with my tube preamp. A nice tube preamp with good detail resolution Yet with just a touch of tonal richness goes a long way with these class D amps IME.
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Hi Dave,
It's input impedance is 10k RCA and 20k XLR, I'm using RCA. So far I've just turned the gain to about 9 o'clock and it works fine with my tube preamp, it has cathode follower outputs so a couple hundred ohms output impedance... not sure I'd want to try using the gain controls as a volume adjustment.
I was wondering what type of output from the cathode followers? Is it transformer coupled, capacitively coupled, or DC coupled output?
If capacitively coupled, by chance do you know the capacitor size in uf?
Thanks for your time, and good luck Dave.
Steve
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One thing that's interesting is that it accentuates details, it seems to make them louder and more noticeable. Stuff that was more in the background is brought forward.
Or is that just a sign of a lower noise floor?
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Or is that just a sign of a lower noise floor?
Nope. This generally called compression, and it's a limitation of the Class D design filtering. The trick in reproducing audio correctly is to be able to reproduce the low level detail accurately, with the proper dynamic contrast. In my listening tests, this is an area that the Electrocompaniet Class A excelled at compared to the Class D Yamaha.
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it's a limitation of the Class D design filtering.
Please explain.
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On some things the volume-leveling, or compression is pretty obvious. It gives the impression that the amp has more detail but it's possible this will cause fatigue.
Steve, the preamp is an Aikido design, so it's a White cathode follower with cap output, I use .47 uF Jupiter copper foil.
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Nope. This generally called compression, and it's a limitation of the Class D design filtering. The trick in reproducing audio correctly is to be able to reproduce the low level detail accurately, with the proper dynamic contrast. In my listening tests, this is an area that the Electrocompaniet Class A excelled at compared to the Class D Yamaha.
So it turns the music into an mp3. That does't sound fun.
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So it turns the music into an mp3. That does't sound fun.
:lol:
Not exactly.
Fatigue from class D is due to noise. Some low dynamic class D don't seem to exhibit it, but have higher distortion. Unfortunately it's harder to deal with on a SMPS that isn't as nice as a Hypex.
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:lol:
Not exactly.
Fatigue from class D is due to noise. Some low dynamic class D don't seem to exhibit it, but have higher distortion. Unfortunately it's harder to deal with on a SMPS that isn't as nice as a Hypex.
Unfortunately, I had way to much fatigue from the NC400's and NC1200's on my system, but lets just blame that on my AC in my home town so we don't start another uproar here. No way anyone here could have listened to those amps here on a Friday or Saturday night. I also had fatique with the Eximus S1 and the Stello AI700 integrated although at a much lesser degree.
My Crown will be here on Monday, so we will see on how it stands up to my bad AC. I will also compare it to the TBI with the Astron power supply. The Astron stepped the TBI up another notch or two on SQ than the tour amp sounded, while totally eliminating the Friday and Saturday night fatigue that I had with it powered by AC.
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Unfortunately, I had way to much fatigue from the NC400's and NC1200's on my system, but lets just blame that on my AC in my home town so we don't start another uproar here. No way anyone here could have listened to those amps here on a Friday or Saturday night. I also had fatique with the Eximus S1 and the Stello AI700 integrated although at a much lesser degree.
My Crown will be here on Monday, so we will see on how it stands up to my bad AC. I will also compare it to the TBI with the Astron power supply. The Astron stepped the TBI up another notch or two on SQ than the tour amp sounded, while totally eliminating the Friday and Saturday night fatigue that I had with it powered by AC.
Tom, I don't the the AC alone is the source of listener fatigue. Check out this link:
https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=620:q-what-are-the-problems-with-class-d-digital-switching-amplifiers&Itemid=405 (https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=620:q-what-are-the-problems-with-class-d-digital-switching-amplifiers&Itemid=405)
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Tom, I don't the the AC alone is the source of listener fatigue. Check out this link:
https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=620:q-what-are-the-problems-with-class-d-digital-switching-amplifiers&Itemid=405 (https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=620:q-what-are-the-problems-with-class-d-digital-switching-amplifiers&Itemid=405)
I have always felt that these Class D amps needed a good linear power supply to have better SQ and less fatique. Ir sure made a difference on the TBI.
That is a great link, Freo-1. I wish I had that before I bought this Crown.
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https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=620:q-what-are-the-problems-with-class-d-digital-switching-amplifiers&Itemid=405 (https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=620:q-what-are-the-problems-with-class-d-digital-switching-amplifiers&Itemid=405)
Nevertheless, it is nearly impossible to engineer a conventional Class-D amplifier that handles the full requirement, 20-20,000Hz, for full-bandwidth music reproduction...The fundamental flaws of conventional Class-D amplifiers remain unresolved...
Hypex ncore proves this completely false....
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They still work just fine. Despite the "flaws" people are nutto over. Are they different? Uh, yay...
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That is a great link, Freo-1. I wish I had that before I bought this Crown.
Don't worry. Some of the worst sounding amplifiers I've ever owned have been Class AB.
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Here is a review of another Crown amp that uses Drivecore tecnology:
http://www.arccinema.com/crown-ct8150-comtech-drivecore-amplifier/
There are 4 different versions of the CT amp (CT475,CT875,CT4150,CT8150) ranging from $1100.00 - $2500.00.
The reviewer, Andrew Robinson preferred the sound of the 8150 over the XL2000. He is more about home theater use, but...
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Although the Yamaha and Ncore amps sound good overall, the Nuforce link is basically accurate. As Nelson Pass once said about Class D amps:
"Class D amplifiers are switches with tons of feedback. It's amazing that they work as well as they do."
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What is amazing is that some just can't get over the fact that a great many people find nothing wrong with the better class d amps and actually prefer them. This whole class d debate is so old and tired that what is really amazing is that people still continue to perpetuate it...
Personally, I couldn't care less what a class a amp designer has to say about class d, or those with OCD who change amps every other month. I know how the ncore sound in my system, and I know that I am not alone in my assessment of their sound. It's nice to find something really good and just enjoy the music.
All this "class d is flawed", "class d is this", "class d is that"...so much meaningless drivel....the proof is in the pudding: Hypex is doing just fine.
Not everyone's system will thrive with a transparent, neutral amp that lets all the upstream deficiencies through. Nor is everyone after a wire with gain. I wouldn't suppose class d is for everyone, just like tubes aren't for everyone. But those who wish to find flaws and fault the technology should make better use of their time and just move along. Class d is here to stay...
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:guns: :deadhorse: :smoke: :jester:
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People seem to take this issue personally, as if one is not allowed to question. Some people love their Class D amps, while others do not share their enthusiasm. So what. There are technical arguments to be made on all sides of the issue. The whole purpose of websites like this is to debate the merits and shortfalls of audio reproduction in general.
There are technical issues with ALL amp classes, period. There is no such thing as "A straight wire with gain". All equipment imparts its own sonic signature, based on its technical design aspects. The terms neutral and transparent are relative. Measurements into a resistor do not tell one how an amp will sound with a complex speaker load. One person's neutral is another's forward/aggressive sound.
If you like your Class D, you can keep your Class D... :lol:
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When I was a dealer back in the 80's, I sold Classe, Rowland, and Electroccompiet. All three companies are with us today, but the Electro was the best of the bunch back then. It is nice, or frustrating, to see so many amp designs and brands today, but so far none is perfect. You can find any brand used on the Internet if you search.
Maybe when Class Z comes out, it will be the perfect amp for us all. :thumb:
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There needn't be "a perfect amp for all of us" nor will there ever be a "perfect amp"...There only needs to be an amp "perfect" for each of us....some of us have found something we are pleased with while others are never satisfied....
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There needn't be "a perfect amp for all of us" nor will there ever be a "perfect amp"...There only needs to be an amp "perfect" for each of us....some of us have found something we are pleased with while others are never satisfied....
And I have found the perfect amp for my ZEllatons. :D
But it is still fun to try others. Life is too short to not play with the big boy toys.
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So I went down to Long&Mcquade to see if they had any Crown D amps for rent. I guess they don't Crown any more and now are dedicated to Yorkville. So I rented this Yorkville 1700 Class H :o. it was half price October on all rentals so got this Yorkville for $10 for a month. The amp cost $490.00 brand new.
Keep in mind my source and pre amp are top Notch. This $490.00 amp is oddly quite good. It has its own character to it. The dynamics seem to engage but at a different timing then both my Bryston and this 400 watt Chapter Class D amp I have on Borrow.
Distortion and noise are excellent.
$490 it's a steal
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107257)
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Distortion and noise are excellent.
of course... :lol:
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I meant distortion and noise are very low. Nice one :lol:
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There is one on Ebay for $399 new.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yorkville-PX-Series-PX1700-2-x-850-Watt-Power-Amplifier-PX1700-/271610840301?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f3d4484ed
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that's it and it comes with a hard wired power cord :lol:. If I bought this I would hardwire MY TWL or my one of my Wywires to it.
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My XLS 1500 is burning in and is less fatiguing now, the compression is certainly there but either it's less compressed or I'm getting used to it. I have a track that I can use to test it, there was one instrument in particular that was a lot louder then with my SET amp. I got to try my SET vs an Air Tight Pre and fi 2a3 monoblocks and my SET was it's equal so it's a good benchmark.
Tom, I doubt you will regret your purchase, this amp is sounding much better than yesterday, it'll be like the TBI with 10x the power and cheaper too. Better than your JOB? I doubt it, but it's a good amp...
I have a Odyssey Stratos on the way, should be an interesting comparison there too.
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It should never be fatiguing. That's a bad sign. ^^^^^ I can tell ya right now that this Yorkville will smoke your Crown... Real bad. The thing is about 501bs at least and is class A/B with the efficiency of Class D.
This makes me laugh at under $500 for both :lol:
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werd,
Is there a fan on the Yorkville? If so any noise?
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The spec sheet on the page below shows the Yorkville PX1700 as weighing 35 lbs, and being Class H. No RCA ins.
http://www.proacousticsusa.com/productdetail.php?pId=23896
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The spec sheet on the page below shows the Yorkville PX1700 as weighing 35 lbs, and being Class H. No RCA ins.
http://www.proacousticsusa.com/productdetail.php?pId=23896
From that website, it states..........Inputs - 1/4 IN Jacks
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werd,
Is there a fan on the Yorkville? If so any noise?
There is a fan. You can see the vents in on the front off the pic. With the lid on there is a bit of noise of but not a deal wrecker. For home use I would disconnect the fans and punch holes on the top for ventilation. My left channel is dead quiet but I am getting noise out of my right channel that I don't recall hearing before. I would expect Its only this amp. Going to see if I can fix it.
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From that website, it states..........Inputs - 1/4 IN Jacks
Its has 1/4 in and xlr with Speakon and binding posts out. Easily compatible for home use.
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Here is what $490.00 CAD gets you. Made in Canada too. No Chinese garbage
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107273)
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:lol: forget that last post. it's made in China. It's a Chinese made piece of crap.
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There is a fan. You can see the vents in on the front off the pic. With the lid on there is a bit of noise of but not a deal wrecker. For home use I would disconnect the fans and punch holes on the top for ventilation. My left channel is dead quiet but I am getting noise out of my right channel that I don't recall hearing before. I would expect Its only this amp. Going to see if I can fix it.
I knew it! It sounds like that Yorkville would have a greater chance of smoking your house than smoking my Crown!
If you like Class H, try the Yamaha P-Series. But I had their top of the line P7000S and second from the top P5000S and preferred my Crown XLS 2500 to both of those. The Yamahas also ran hot under the bottom if you left them on 24/7.
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I knew it! It sounds like that Yorkville would have a greater chance of smoking your house than smoking my Crown!
If you like Class H, try the Yamaha P-Series. But I had their top of the line P7000S and second from the top P5000S and preferred my Crown XLS 2500 to both of those. The Yamahas also ran hot under the bottom if you left them on 24/7.
Anything made in China runs the risk of burning the house down. I'd like to hear those Yamaha amps. Kinda taken a liking to Class H.
This Yorkville really likes My Torus. Rm20 The Torus has a way of kicking amps into overdrive.
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2 Pr outputs or is it 4 Pr with 4 on the bottom ...... ?
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When I was a dealer back in the 80's, I sold Classe, Rowland, and Electroccompiet. All three companies are with us today, but the Electro was the best of the bunch back then. It is nice, or frustrating, to see so many amp designs and brands today, but so far none is perfect. You can find any brand used on the Internet if you search.
Maybe when Class Z comes out, it will be the perfect amp for us all. :thumb:
Tom, Electrocompaniet is STILL the best of the bunch in the solid state arena, IMHO. If one wants to get off the equipment upgrade merry go round, EC gear would be at the top of my audition list. In the solid state realm, the EC gear is easily the best overall performer I have come across. They are stable on the most punishing speaker loads available, and seem to get just about everything right. Low level detail is outstanding, with the clarity and correct dynamic contrast (no compression of the loud passages to make the quiet ones appear louder). The design is truly balanced from stem to stern, and propriety circuitry makes it sound closer to music than just about any SS gear out there. EC is a great match with speakers like ATC, which demand top designed electronics to sound their best.
EC seems to have a larger following in Europe than North America, but worth seeking out.
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2 Pr outputs or is it 4 Pr with 4 on the bottom ...... ?
Sorry what are you asking?
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Here is what $490.00 CAD gets you. Made in Canada too. No Chinese garbage
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107273)
This pic shows 4 outputs /ch, I'm asking if there is 4 more per side on the lower part of the sink , bringing the total to 8 /ch. 4 is way too small for its power rating ....
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I'll look when I get home tonight from work. ^^^^^
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My XLS 1500 is burning in and is less fatiguing now, the compression is certainly there but either it's less compressed or I'm getting used to it. I have a track that I can use to test it, there was one instrument in particular that was a lot louder then with my SET amp. I got to try my SET vs an Air Tight Pre and fi 2a3 monoblocks and my SET was it's equal so it's a good benchmark.
Tom, I doubt you will regret your purchase, this amp is sounding much better than yesterday, it'll be like the TBI with 10x the power and cheaper too. Better than your JOB? I doubt it, but it's a good amp...
I have a Odyssey Stratos on the way, should be an interesting comparison there too.
That's good to hear Dave. We went out of town this weekend and unfortunately I didn't leave my Crown running while we were gone. I'm going to run mine all the week, then compare it with the Aragon.
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My 2000 never showed up, it is running a day behind. :evil:
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The Crown looks interesting. I have been following all the class d stuff since I built my own bridged Class D amp (2-SDS254 amp boards), I started with a single board and then added another, greatly improved dynamics etc with my Joseph Audio RM25xl speakers, finally have the funds to try something else, read all about ice, ncore, pascall and Job 225, after careful consideration and the fact that some people who have had/built the ncore amps are moving to the pascal I ordered D Sonic M3-800 monos, which use the latest boards, same as the M3-1500's, I just received them today so I will compare them in a week or so to my Class D amp, hope it is an improvement
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Two hours of use tonight on the 2000 and so far I am :o
I will put 50-100 hours of break-in and compare it to the TBI and Job 225 amps.
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Tom, it's harsh and fatiguing at first, give it a couple days and it will improve. I'd have to say it's sounding very good right now, I still don't think the midrange is going to beat a really nice SET amp but there's no doubt it's better than my SET on some types of music. My Omegas are pretty forward and the Crown isn't fatiguing at this point, it's doing better than I thought it would. I think this amp is going to be hard to beat at any any price when used as sub/woofer amp. It makes the Omegas produce bass in a way my SET amp can't. This with a SET on the top end is going to be amazing.
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Tom, it's harsh and fatiguing at first, give it a couple days and it will improve. I'd have to say it's sounding very good right now, I still don't think the midrange is going to beat a really nice SET amp but there's no doubt it's better than my SET on some types of music. My Omegas are pretty forward and the Crown isn't fatiguing at this point, it's doing better than I thought it would. I think this amp is going to be hard to beat at any any price when used as sub/woofer amp. It makes the Omegas produce bass in a way my SET amp can't. This with a SET on the top end is going to be amazing.
No harshness here so far, just closed-in. But I know that will change. But your cables are more detailed than mine. I have some more detailed ICs coming in next week, I found a heck of a deal on Audiogon that I could not afford to pass up. But these are still not quite as detailed as yours are.
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Well on second thought, since I have turned the music off, my ears are slightly buzzing. But it is not as bad as I would have thought after two hours of listening. Friday and Saturday nights are always the worst here. I should have close to 100 hours by then.
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No harshness here so far, just closed-in. But I know that will change. But your cables are more detailed than mine. I have some more detailed ICs coming in next week, I found a heck of a deal on Audiogon that I could not afford to pass up. But these are still not quite as detailed as yours are.
I actually switched to warmer IC cables yesterday, with obvious positive results. But the KEF LS50s are hot in the 2-5k region, I surprised this amp is working as well as it is with these speakers.
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FYI. Class "D" amps need to be on 24/7 to sound their best. They will open up after about 400 hours or so. Be patient. Lots of experience had with class "D" both hybrid and non hybrid.
charles
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Well, don't think I will wait that long. Although the Crown is a nice clean sounding amp for the money, I'm sending mine back. Just didn't jell with the KEFs, too much high frequency energy. The old Aragon sounds more relaxed and warmer, with more lower and smoother midrange which is needed with these speakers. Soundstage and imaging was about the same with both amps. Oh well, a fun experiment.
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FYI. Class "D" amps need to be on 24/7 to sound their best. They will open up after about 400 hours or so. Be patient. Lots of experience had with class "D" both hybrid and non hybrid.
charles
I've noticed this as well. I leave mine on 24/7 and the performance is remarkably consistent.
But if I shut them down to demo at another location , it does take about 30-45 minutes to get to full mojo. Probably everything else in the system warming up too though.
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Well, don't think I will wait that long. Although the Crown is a nice clean sounding amp for the money, I'm sending mine back. Just didn't jell with the KEFs, too much high frequency energy. The old Aragon sounds more relaxed and warmer, with more lower and smoother midrange which is needed with these speakers. Soundstage and imaging was about the same with both amps. Oh well, a fun experiment.
How many hours did you play your Crown?
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Maybe 50 hours. Not enough? I am a believer in breakin as I have heard it before with my Dodds unit and the KEFs. Just hate to prolong the inevitable.
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My Job 225 amp sounded thin for 100 hours, I have about 50 hours on the Crown. My buddy Rex is using the KEF's and Job amp and loving it.
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My Job 225 amp sounded thin for 100 hours, I have about 50 hours on the Crown. My buddy Rex is using the KEF's and Job amp and loving it.
Tom is your iTube in the chain?
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Tom is your iTube in the chain?
Yes,of course. :D
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My Job 225 amp sounded thin for 100 hours, I have about 50 hours on the Crown. My buddy Rex is using the KEF's and Job amp and loving it.
Yes I've heard the Job amp is a good match for the KEFs. I will be interested in your comparison between that and the Crown.
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This pic shows 4 outputs /ch, I'm asking if there is 4 more per side on the lower part of the sink , bringing the total to 8 /ch. 4 is way too small for its power rating ....
There is 4 on the bottom each side too. I like this amp but it has it's ups and downs.
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Tks ....
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Last night at the 50 hour mark, the 2000 was very thin and clinical sounding. 24 hours later, SQ is a lot smoother. And this is Friday night and I am not hearing the usual AC distortion. Now that is impressive. Sound is still slightly clinical.
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I guess with in-built crossover, these Crown amps have a a->d->a stage?
-Jim
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Good question Jim, I bet the crossover is processed digitally but I wonder if has to be converted back to analog...
The Crown is sounding better and better, it's been a week and I've had it on 24/7. My SET is probably a little better overall but I prefer the Crown for rock and electronic music so ideally I'd switch between them depending on what I'm listening to. A more powerful SET amp would probably be better than both but they don't come cheap. In any case it's pretty amazing for $262.
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How much power do you need Dave?
With class D, you wouldn't have to go digital to cut frequency. I'm not saying they don't, but it's not a must.
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The Crown is sounding better and better, it's been a week and I've had it on 24/7. My SET is probably a little better overall but I prefer the Crown for rock and electronic music so ideally I'd switch between them depending on what I'm listening to. A more powerful SET amp would probably be better than both but they don't come cheap. In any case it's pretty amazing for $262.
That's pretty promising news. For that rock bottom price, Crown likely used the minimum required parts quality, wiring, etc. I wonder what a little reasonable modding could do..
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This thread sounds like a bunch of wishful thinking. The Crown is cheap and powerful and lots of guys are REALLY wanting it to sound good. I have not heard the latest generation of pro amps, but my Crown K1, an awesome subwoofer amp, is not suitable for a hifi system. The sound is 2D and no matter how much I want it to sound better than my other amps and no matter how many thousands of hours of "breakin" it has or how much sorbothane I put under it, it's still a 2D pro amp.
I may pick up a Crown for my subwoofer if the xover allows me to ditch the DcX, but I don't anticipate using it as a replacement for a decent hifi amp.
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This thread sounds like a bunch of wishful thinking. The Crown is cheap and powerful and lots of guys are REALLY wanting it to sound good. I have not heard the latest generation of pro amps, but my Crown K1, an awesome subwoofer amp, is not suitable for a hifi system. The sound is 2D and no matter how much I want it to sound better than my other amps and no matter how many thousands of hours of "breakin" it has or how much sorbothane I put under it, it's still a 2D pro amp.
I may pick up a Crown for my subwoofer if the xover allows me to ditch the DcX, but I don't anticipate using it as a replacement for a decent hifi amp.
Jack,
I think I am going all in on some power hungry speakers, and so I may grab one or two of these to amplify while the audio fund recovers. Or hell, maybe they stay for long-term duty. Who knows. But let's compare these to your ncores when I've pulled the trigger.
If I understand correctly, these Crowns are quite different internally from your K1. But of course there are concerns about parts quality at those price points.
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I'm with Jackman on this, interesting to hear the comments ..........
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Jack,
I think I am going all in on some power hungry speakers, and so I may grab one or two of these to amplify while the audio fund recovers. Or hell, maybe they stay for long-term duty. Who knows. But let's compare these to your ncores when I've pulled the trigger.
If I understand correctly, these Crowns are quite different internally from your K1. But of course there are concerns about parts quality at those price points.
You nailed it right there. This Yorkville is really interesting, but you can hear the cheap parts in it. Anybody interested in going further with their own class H would be interested in this amp for modding. Its has lots of potential but a little lacking resolution. Getting rid of those connects out of the transformer would be a great start. Then hardwiring a decent cable would raise its performance. Can use a complete cap upgrade. All of this isn't hard for those who have done this. Diode replacement in the power supply could try but may not be necessary for class H. It's got lots of air and low distortion.
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How much power do you need Dave?
Something like 40 watts would be great. Doable with SET but not cheap.
Jackman, they were 2d at first but not now.I bet these will come uncomfortably close to your NCore, might actually be hard to tell apart. :icon_twisted:
Jon, there is literally no wiring, no separate power supply... Some of the connectors could be upgraded but they are all pcb mount.
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Hi Roscoe, sounds good. I have no emotional connection to my amp. If the cheap crown sounds as good, I'll sell the Ncore immediately. Right after I pick my jaw off the floor. I'm not saying the crown pro amps are not a great value but I don't think I they can compete with something like the ncore.
Dave, I hope the Crown sounds better. The difference in price between it and the NCore is staggering. The crown has power but I believe it lacks refinement. We've been down this road before with giant killer amps. So far none of them have lived up to the hype. Wishful thinking is very powerful but reality usually wins out.
Cheers
Jack
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Believe Dave on this one, this Crown amp is worthy to hook up a great system full range. I am running it on Zellatons, and these amps are very 3D with tons of detail. Vocals are sounding fantastic. I have decided to buy another and use them as monos, 2100 Wpc into 4 ohms. :o
The Crown 1000's have been selling for less than $200 each on Ebay, for less than $400, you have monos that puts out over 1000 Wpc into 4ohms. But I have dibs on the next 2000 that sells for 300 bucks, so no one grab it.
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Isn't 300.00 close to new retail . ? man Crowns have never worked for me sound wise and i have had a few, color me a skeptic , I will wait to see if Jack ditch the NCores ..:)
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The 2000 retails for $899 and can be purchased for $499. Ebay does have some good deal on these amps...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XLS2000
I wouldn't consider the 1000 though, 6 dB worse S/N ratio.
These amps are a relatively new "DriveCore" class D design, not like older Crown amps.
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The 2000 retails for $899 and can be purchased for $499. Ebay does have some good deal on these amps...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XLS2000
I wouldn't consider the 1000 though, 6 dB worse S/N ratio.
These amps are a relatively new "DriveCore" class D design, not like older Crown amps.
The 1000 should still have better specs than the cheap TPA amps that the C&C crowd are building. And yes, Dave is right again, these Crown amps makes the TBI sound veiled. For $150 used on Ebay, the 1000 will clearly be the new champ for the Cheap and Cheerful circle.
I also checked on Crown's website, these amps have a transferable 3 year warranty.
I wish I was into electronics now, someone sharp could add a tube input stage and make some money modding these amps.
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The 1000 should still have better specs than the cheap TPA amps that the C&C crowd are building. And yes, Dave is right again, these Crown amps makes the TBI sound veiled. For $150 used on Ebay, the 1000 will clearly be the new champ for the Cheap and Cheerful circle.
I also checked on Crown's website, these amps have a transferable 3 year warranty.
I wish I was into electronics now, someone sharp could add a tube input stage and make some money modding these amps.
So the iTube is working out well then? no negative impact on detail retrieval?
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The 1000 should still have better specs than the cheap TPA amps that the C&C crowd are building. And yes, Dave is right again, these Crown amps makes the TBI sound veiled. For $150 used on Ebay, the 1000 will clearly be the new champ for the Cheap and Cheerful circle.
I also checked on Crown's website, these amps have a transferable 3 year warranty.
I wish I was into electronics now, someone sharp could add a tube input stage and make some money modding these amps.
I was just thinking all it needs is a tube buffer input, which would allow it to mate with a passive pre easily too. D amps seem to benefit from tubes feeding them. As is the 10k input impedance single ended is a little low too. A couple of 6SN7s would be great, I'm using the 5692 version in my preamp and they give a good full-bodied sound. The connectors could be upgraded but it would be better to find suitable PCB-mount replacements of high quality in the exact same form factor as the stock connectors. There are some options out there... The binding posts could be replaced pretty easy with std posts of higher quality.
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So the iTube is working out well then? no negative impact on detail retrieval?
The Itube works great, but it is not stock. A big difference was Cryo, special AC power cable by Reality Cables, and special 9V Astron Power Supply. This sounds twice as good as a stock Itube and will compete with tube pre's in the $2-3K price range. The extras adds $200 to the Itube.
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Good to know. My main concern with the Crown is overly bright highs and not enough meat on the bones for the sound. A tube solution like the iTube would make sense. But not sure what compromises that might involve.
Also Tom, have you compared attenuating the gain from the Crown vs. using the iTube attenuator to reduce gain? Curious which is more transparent.
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Also Tom, have you compared attenuating the gain from the Crown vs. using the iTube attenuator to reduce gain? Curious which is more transparent.
I have started to play around with that, but I still want to get more time on the Crown before any serious comparisons.
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I was just thinking all it needs is a tube buffer input, which would allow it to mate with a passive pre easily too. D amps seem to benefit from tubes feeding them. As is the 10k input impedance single ended is a little low too. A couple of 6SN7s would be great, I'm using the 5692 version in my preamp and they give a good full-bodied sound. The connectors could be upgraded but it would be better to find suitable PCB-mount replacements of high quality in the exact same form factor as the stock connectors. There are some options out there... The binding posts could be replaced pretty easy with std posts of higher quality.
That's what I was using with my 1500. Dodds tube buffer (with a 6H30P-DR tube) behind a Goldpoint 25k attenuator. I think the output impedance is around 100 ohms. I though about inserting one of my Jensen tranny converters in there, to use the balanced inputs of the Crown, which has double the input impedance. To see if it would make any difference.
I also could of done some tube swapping or even some digital EQing, and probably make the Crown work with my KEFs. I actually still have a couple weeks left in the trial period, and haven't sent it back yet.... :duh: :lol:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/854/picture005ag.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/39/p1020282v.jpg)
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That's what I was using with my 1500. Dodds tube buffer (with a 6H30P-DR tube) behind a Goldpoint 25k attenuator. I think the output impedance is around 100 ohms. I though about inserting one of my Jensen tranny converters in there, to use the balanced inputs of the Crown, which has double the input impedance. To see if it would make any difference.
I also could of done some tube swapping or even some digital EQing, and probably make the Crown work with my KEFs. I actually still have a couple weeks left in the trial period, and haven't sent it back yet.... :duh: :lol:
Look forward to hearing what else you discover if you take the time to tinker with the amp more. The LS50 is a great speaker, though on the forward side of the spectrum in my experience. I do think that highs do tend to be affected by amp break-in, or you could just be dealing with a characteristic of the amp (maybe other owners could weigh in here).
How lean was the Crown + tube buffer combo for you? And how did playing around with the amp gain affect things?
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That's what I was using with my 1500. Dodds tube buffer (with a 6H30P-DR tube) behind a Goldpoint 25k attenuator.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/39/p1020282v.jpg)
I think that tube buffer may actually not be "tubey" enough for our purposes :green:
I do have a souped-up Transcendent grounded grid preamp with nice, rich 12AU7 tubes sitting around, which should pair up nicely with Crown. I'm thinking something like a SAS Labs tubed preamp will also pair up nicely with just enough tube harmonics but still transparent..
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Look forward to hearing what else you discover if you take the time to tinker with the amp more. The LS50 is a great speaker, though on the forward side of the spectrum in my experience. I do think that highs do tend to be affected by amp break-in, or you could just be dealing with a characteristic of the amp (maybe other owners could weigh in here).
How lean was the Crown + tube buffer combo for you? And how did playing around with the amp gain affect things?
Yes whether it is break in or just needing a warmer amp is the question. From what I could tell, it was the bump in the KEFs upper midrange/lower treble that was showing though. Just a little too etchy.
I think that tube buffer may actually not be "tubey" enough for our purposes :green:
I do have a souped-up Transcendent grounded grid preamp with nice, rich 12AU7 tubes sitting around, which should pair up nicely with Crown. I'm thinking something like a SAS Labs tubed preamp will also pair up nicely with just enough tube harmonics but still transparent..
LOL, could be. I built this unit as an upgrade from a CI passive pre, and it really did improve the power amp's sound. Being "tubey" really wasn't the goal, but to use a passive on a lowish input impedance amp.
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JK,
How lean was the Crown + tube buffer combo for you? Meat on the bones there? I'm thinking of the resonance of a string instrument.
And how did playing around with the amp gain affect things?
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AC power really has a lot to do with perceived forwardness and harshness and can make the difference between too forward and fatiguing and detailed but just right. If things being too forward, bright or harsh seems to be an issue it might be worth it to look at AC power.
That said the Crown is a forward sounding amp and combined with forward sounding speakers might be too much for some. My speakers are pretty forward too and while I don't think it's too much I could understand someone else preferring a more laid-back presentation. I think the main issue with the Crown amps is volume compression, it's better than when it was new but detail is presented with too much volume sometimes, which makes the amp sound forward.
In any case, the Crown amps aren't perfect (neither is my SET amp) but the value you get is pretty amazing. Based on what I'm hearing I'd put all my budget into source and speakers and just use these Crown amps if I was buying a new system. I think you'd get better bang for your buck than spending less on source or speakers to buy a different and more expensive amp in most cases.
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That's a reason I spoke about modifications to the Crown. There might even be some simple $2 mods that'll bring the forwardness down.
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I have started to play around with that, but I still want to get more time on the Crown before any serious comparisons.
Tom, how does the Crown compare with the Ncore? The best Class D I have heard to date is the Yamha MX-D1, slightly more dynamic than the Ncore (but both are very good).
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That's a reason I spoke about modifications to the Crown. There might even be some simple $2 mods that'll bring the forwardness down.
I think the forwardness is primarily a result of the compression, which can't be fixed... but could also be AC power. I'm not so sure the issue with AC power is in the amp though, I'd bet it has to do with other components. The Crown amps PS are supposed to be designed to handle dirty AC power although I have not tested it with or without my PLC yet... it is possible some improvements could be made there.
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I think the forwardness is primarily a result of the compression, which can't be fixed... but could also be AC power. I'm not so sure the issue with AC power is in the amp though, I'd bet it has to do with other components. The Crown amps PS are supposed to be designed to handle dirty AC power although I have not tested it with or without my PLC yet... it is possible some improvements could be made there.
Interesting thoughts about the potential contribution of AC. Though I think I'd be OK in my place with it through my Equitech 2Q or my Audience one outlet power conditioner.
And good to know that it is a forward amp. That should help folks decide whether it is for them or not, and whether it would work with their speakers or not.
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It's hard to say with compression. There's what we think we hear etc... but also the compression if dynamic at all, is a response that can be changed.
Their filter looks decent, albeit very low capacitance. But that doesn't mean there isn't a complication created by the filter itself. Also the proximity of the diodes (if I'm even sure what I'm looking at) is a good distance from any AC capacitance that could help with their probably bad RF production.
It might benefit from some PFC too.
Anyway, if you want to PM me maybe we could investigate, not hijacking the thread.
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JK,
How lean was the Crown + tube buffer combo for you? Meat on the bones there? I'm thinking of the resonance of a string instrument.
And how did playing around with the amp gain affect things?
I don't really feel it was a lean sound, as much as it is what Dave was describing. I had turned my subs off, and un-plugged the KEFs ports, and got decent bass out of them. I didn't feel adjusting the gain on the power amp really changed much, except limiting the volume adjustment on the preamp. But I could only go so low as my setup really doesn't add gain pass what the DAC is putting out (2.2 volts if I recall).
Maybe using something like the Benchmark DAC or a high gain pre would allow a lower gain setting.
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Thanks. Very helpful.
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Tom, how does the Crown compare with the Ncore? The best Class D I have heard to date is the Yamha MX-D1, slightly more dynamic than the Ncore (but both are very good).
My system has changed so much, it would be unfair to compare. Both amps are very neutral, so garbage in-garbage out as for the quality of the recordings. They both have great bass.
The Ncores never gelled here on my bad AC, so I took them to Rex's. He ran his AMR tube DAC straight in through RCA inputs and the sound was just OK. Then we hooked his AMR balanced to the Ncores and they came to life. I would be curious on how the Crown sounded running balanced.
Is anyone here running their Crown balanced? I would run my Crown up to Rex's, but he and his wife moved back to Hawaii last week.
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I broke in my crown for months unbalanced in my video system but always used balanced inputs when in my audio system (where it currently resides). So can't give an accurate sound quality assessment between unbalanced vs. balanced.
My Benchmark DAC-1 which I use as a preamp has (true) balanced outputs and I prefer running balanced. The Benchmark even has jumpers to adjust the gain (which also affects output impedance) inside the unit.
With unbalanced, preamp/power combinations I've used in my listening room over the years would amplify noise from power switches (popping sounds while turning on/off nearby bathroom light switches, bathroom fan switches, etc.) but all fully balanced preamp/power amp combinations I've used in my listening room have conversely been dead quiet. If you have a preamp that has true balanced outputs and your electrical environment is less than ideal, that would be the way to go IMHO...not just with the Crown but with any amp that offers those inputs.
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Well, I learned something tonight. I was getting a severe edge coming through the system tonight, I was getting very frustrated and fatigued. I was blaming my AC. I decided to crank the ITUBE wide open and use the gain controls on the amp. Voila, the edge totally disappeared. :D
Now to find my balanced cables and hook up my Sony balanced using the gain controls on the amp. Tuesday I will report back on what I find out.
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Yeah, some of the threads on this amp suggest better performance with gain at lower levels. 12 o'clock IIRC was mentioned by more than one person.
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I just switched back to my SET amp, which is just a pair of EL34 tubes, no driver, no coupling capacitors, and a PS with a 5AR4 rectifier, CLC filter with Clarity TC series power supply caps. James OPTs, pure copper connectors. So, pretty high end... about as good as it gets except for the OPTS and Furutech rhodium connectors would up things a little bit, but it's a really good amp, it just has no gain.. the gain is slightly negative in fact. :)
Is it better? Yes, but I'm not actually sure you'd be able to tell the Crown vs the EL34 SET blind in a lot of cases. Not kidding, it is really that close and the similar character of the sound is not something I expected. I think both my SET and the Crown are very transparent and neutral, letting the source and preamp define the sound. Of course the Crown has limitless power and on some music and playing at higher volumes it's a huge advantage. The trade off is the midrange is a little better with the SET amp. But these differences are pretty subtle and I don't listen at the limits of what the speakers can take all the time. The Crown makes spending big $ on a more powerful SET amp seem like a waste of money. :scratch:
The gain knobs on the Crown are at 9 o'clock as my preamp has 20 dB gain.
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I turned my gain controls from 3 to 9 o'clock and this has stripped my last objection to the Crown. The clinical sound that I was getting earlier has totally vanished. Dave is right, a person should try one of these before they buy any other high priced amp, SS or tube. Buy one used on ebay and if you don't like it, resell it. :thumb:
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Anxiously awaiting your Job comparison.
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You for real Dave? That's pretty high endorsement. I might have to get a pair and run mono's :) These sound tweak-worthy.
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I turned my gain controls from 3 to 9 o'clock and this has stripped my last objection to the Crown. The clinical sound that I was getting earlier has totally vanished. Dave is right, a person should try one of these before they buy any other high priced amp, SS or tube. Buy one used on ebay and if you don't like it, resell it. :thumb:
So I need a transparent, high gain, low impedance preamp (preferably with balanced outs and/or tubes) to make this amp work best? Hate to ditch the Dodds, but I could see getting a gain in dynamics going with something active.
Too bad my Sony TAP multi channel pre is in the HT system, it's got tons of extra gain.
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Well, I learned something tonight. I was getting a severe edge coming through the system tonight, I was getting very frustrated and fatigued. I was blaming my AC. I decided to crank the ITUBE wide open and use the gain controls on the amp. Voila, the edge totally disappeared. :D
Now to find my balanced cables and hook up my Sony balanced using the gain controls on the amp. Tuesday I will report back on what I find out.
Tom,
How did you have the iTube configured?
I use mine as a buffer with no gain.
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I just switched back to my SET amp, which is just a pair of EL34 tubes, no driver, no coupling capacitors, and a PS with a 5AR4 rectifier, CLC filter with Clarity TC series power supply caps. James OPTs, pure copper connectors. So, pretty high end... about as good as it gets except for the OPTS and Furutech rhodium connectors would up things a little bit, but it's a really good amp, it just has no gain.. the gain is slightly negative in fact. :)
Is it better? Yes, but I'm not actually sure you'd be able to tell the Crown vs the EL34 SET blind in a lot of cases. Not kidding, it is really that close and the similar character of the sound is not something I expected. I think both my SET and the Crown are very transparent and neutral, letting the source and preamp define the sound. Of course the Crown has limitless power and on some music and playing at higher volumes it's a huge advantage. The trade off is the midrange is a little better with the SET amp. But these differences are pretty subtle and I don't listen at the limits of what the speakers can take all the time. The Crown makes spending big $ on a more powerful SET amp seem like a waste of money. :scratch:
The gain knobs on the Crown are at 9 o'clock as my preamp has 20 dB gain.
Thanks for the info Dave , for clarification , are you level matching and is your current speakers a single full range driver, Im not familiar with the model in your listing ...
Regards
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Tom,
How did you have the iTube configured?
I use mine as a buffer with no gain.
I need the volume control with the Job amp because the Sony does not have one, so as a pre. I will try by-passing the Itube with IC's and balanced cables tomorrow night. Hopefully I won't have to turn the gain up too high on the Crown amp.
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I need the volume control with the Job amp because the Sony does not have one, so as a pre. I will try by-passing the Itube with IC's and balanced cables tomorrow night. Hopefully I won't have to turn the gain up too high on the Crown amp.
Ok got it.
Reviews on the iTube have stated that it sounds best as a buffer/buffer with gain, than as a single source preamp?
Perhaps the mods you described improved the sq to the preamp function?
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So does anyone know of a good line level shifter that could be used with this amp?
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You for real Dave? That's pretty high endorsement. I might have to get a pair and run mono's :) These sound tweak-worthy.
Yeah, I'd say give them a shot if you need an amp or want something to play with. I wouldn't expect the last degree of midrange refinement you can get with a tube amp but it's a good amp at any price and the fact you can get them cheap is nice. Perfect for low frequency applications, probably good enough for full range on most systems.
a.wayne, no not precisely level-matching... it takes too much time to switch the cables between amps for it to matter that much anyway. Speakers are Omega Super 3 XRS and a 10" sealed sub. The speakers are very neutral, no crossover... good for hearing minute differences in a system for sure.
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So does anyone know of a good line level shifter that could be used with this amp?
When I was using the Crown in my video system, I never needed a direct box. I went from Oppo 103 (as a preamp) to the Crown via RCA and had enough level (for condo living!) even with the Crown gain controls not up to max. Now in my video system I use Yamaha HS8 powered speakers and they don't have RCA inputs so I use this direct box between the Oppo and the Yamahas:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Aphex%20124A
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Can anyone tell me how these crown amps compare with Ncores? Interesting option to add 5 channel capability to my home theater. 3 more nc400 is a bit more than I can swing anytime soon.
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I had been following the TPA 3116 thread and a couple of weeks ago, Wushuliu apprised me of this great thread. Thanks Wushuliu 8)
I'm seeking something that might fit well with Fritz speakers. They are rated around 87 db I was told they like a "high current" amplifier.
DaveC113, your positive comment on the Crown is really striking considering the level of gear you have and the comparison to an SET.
And, Ozark, since you've been "playing around" with a host of non-traditional amps for quite a while, you know the "competition."
So, for anyone who cares to chime in, please, I am wondering how you think this amplifier would fit with Fritz speakers. I'm particularly interested in knowing how this amp sounds at "moderate" volumes. Also, what might you guys suggest for a cost effective pre-amp? One input/output is fine.
Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge.
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forkliftHIFI and sonicxtc, I think the best thing to do is try them out with a vendor that has a return policy and let us know what YOU think. :thumb:
There's not too much more I can say, they are competent and seem especially good at producing bass at higher volumes since they have a ton of power on tap.
I may look and see if I can find some nicer PCB-mount connectors and binding posts, maybe try a couple little things to make them better but I think Harmon did a very good job.
For a preamp I'd look for something with a tube, every class D amp I've ever tried sounded significantly better with a tube preamp. Gain does not seem to be a problem with the Crown amps as I'm getting good results with a pre that has 20 dB gain, but a zero gain buffer should work fine too. It's possible a pre with gain would be better since Tom reports better sound with the Crown's gain controls turned down, with my setup I could try bypassing my preamp but I'll let Tom do it first, we both have the same Sony HAP-Z1ES music server... :green:
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Found the Crown on sale for 350 with shipping, now to overcome it's a crown .... :green:
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Found the Crown on sale for 350 with shipping, now to overcome it's a crown .... :green:
Which model was that at this price? A sale or a refub/demo/return unit?
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not sure if it is, on amazon, 1500 model
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When I was using the Crown in my video system, I never needed a direct box. I went from Oppo 103 (as a preamp) to the Crown via RCA and had enough level (for condo living!) even with the Crown gain controls not up to max. Now in my video system I use Yamaha HS8 powered speakers and they don't have RCA inputs so I use this direct box between the Oppo and the Yamahas:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Aphex%20124A
Thanks, the Aphex seems to have better specs then some of the others. I have an old Art Cleanbox that I can throw on there just to see what happens.
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Can't you guys find one to rent? They must have them in local instrument and gear rental vendors.
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Something is not right here. If the volume knob on the Crown is only at 9 o'clock, then it can only output a fraction of it's rated power. Kinda defeats the purpose of a high powered amp, does it not?
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Something is not right here. If the volume knob on the Crown is only at 9 o'clock, then it can only output a fraction of it's rated power. Kinda defeats the purpose of a high powered amp, does it not?
I am hardly a technical genius, but I believe that they are for adjusting gain, rather than being treated volume controls. Not sure what this means technically in terms of power delivery. But gain structure is an important component to a system, and you also see gain controls on other amps like the John Curl designed A21.
Hopefully someone more technically competent can elaborate on whether there is something to what I am saying, or if I've got this all wrong.
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Sure, but if you cut back the gain that much, it will restrict the max output power.
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Something is not right here. If the volume knob on the Crown is only at 9 o'clock, then it can only output a fraction of it's rated power. Kinda defeats the purpose of a high powered amp, does it not?
No the controls are for input sensitivity only ......
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If you want to buy new, the 1500 at Amazon is $336.83 and probably the best deal.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HZV2JS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
I am betting the 1500 will probably sound the best of the bunch because of the lower power rating. I have decided to send this 2000 back to the Ebay seller because he improperly packed the amp and bent one of the side panels sticking out the back. If he only used the amp once, he must have hauled it around in the back of his truck for a long time, marks and scratches everywhere. So I am buying 2-1500's, one this month and one for Christmas.
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Can anyone tell me how these crown amps compare with Ncores? Interesting option to add 5 channel capability to my home theater. 3 more nc400 is a bit more than I can swing anytime soon.
Both are very neutral sounding, so go with the Crowns. You can always match the volume of the Ncores with the Crowns because of the gain controls on the Crowns. Of course hook the Ncores to your main spaeakers and Crowns to your others. You will never miss anything, and I would go with the 1000's for the home theater. For around 400 bucks or less on Ebay, you will have your system going full speed.
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No the controls are for input sensitivity only ......
It does not read this way. It seems like if you input a 1V signal, and this runs through the attenuator at 9 o'clock, then it becomes a .25 volt signal, which limits the output power.
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I had been following the TPA 3116 thread and a couple of weeks ago, Wushuliu apprised me of this great thread. Thanks Wushuliu 8)
I'm seeking something that might fit well with Fritz speakers. They are rated around 87 db I was told they like a "high current" amplifier.
DaveC113, your positive comment on the Crown is really striking considering the level of gear you have and the comparison to an SET.
And, Ozark, since you've been "playing around" with a host of non-traditional amps for quite a while, you know the "competition."
So, for anyone who cares to chime in, please, I am wondering how you think this amplifier would fit with Fritz speakers. I'm particularly interested in knowing how this amp sounds at "moderate" volumes. Also, what might you guys suggest for a cost effective pre-amp? One input/output is fine.
Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge.
I also have a $9K SET amp sitting here, definitely buy the Crown. Itube is also a great sounding Pre and sometimes those go for $200 used, $300 new.
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I also have a $9K SET amp sitting here, definitely buy the Crown. Itube is also a great sounding Pre and sometimes those go for $200 used, $300 new.
Tom, how does it compare to the TBI?
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Tom, how does it compare to the TBI?
More open, more detailed, clearer, and lots more bass.
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More open, more detailed, clearer, and lots more bass.
:o :o :o
Any areas in which you prefer the TBI sound? Or that someone with different tastes might prefer it? I guess I am asking whether we are talking warm vs analytical here?
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I have been looking into one of the Crowns XLS for a while and I plan to get the 1500 later this year (unless you all steal away the used ebay finds). I saw some comments that people should just use the XLS 1000 so I just wanted to add that a lot of people at the HT forums complained about the noise floor of the xls 1000 - especially with speakers with high sensitivity. The 1500, 2000 or 2500 seems to be the recommended options, while the 1000 was still considered good but mainly for subwoofer duty.
If you're missing high level inputs (for subs usage), also check out Ed Schilling's recommendation to convert a RCA cable into high level inputs via a 600 ohm resistor to feed the crown xls:
"take a cheap set of ICs and cut the end off a couple inches from RCA. Start with a 5k to be safe..... hook the resistor to the lead going to the center pin. Attach some speaker wire to resistor and the lead going to the shield. This end hooks to the power amp. RCA goes into the XLS. To run the xls in mono use a "Y" to combine the channels and switch it to mono and be sure to use the proper speaker connection as described in the manual. I am using a 600 ohm resistor but you should try a higher value first....the higher the value you can use and still have enough gain in the xls the better. 1/2 watt is fine. WARNING!!!!!!! Do not use this type connection with a digital amp or any amp that the speaker grounds can not take being hooked together!!!!!! "
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It does not read this way. It seems like if you input a 1V signal, and this runs through the attenuator at 9 o'clock, then it becomes a .25 volt signal, which limits the output power.
Correct , thats defined as input sensitivity , you will now have to increase the input drive to reach full power..
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This is associated with "gain staging" which is not so easy to wrap your head around and is often incorrectly implemented. Worth studying. Googling uncovers a wealth of information on this.
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Correct , thats defined as input sensitivity , you will now have to increase the input drive to reach full power..
This is associated with "gain staging" which is not so easy to wrap your head around and is often incorrectly implemented. Worth studying. Googling uncovers a wealth of information on this.
So to be clear, amp can still reach full power with sufficient voltage with the gain adjustments dialed down?
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Yes .............
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So to be clear, amp can still reach full power with sufficient voltage with the gain adjustments dialed down?
The short answer is, no. The high powered Class D amp is a low to moderate powered amp at a 9 o'clock setting. Again, in the example given, a 1 volt setting is cut down to .25 volts, which means that the amp will not reach full output power.
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Hillarious .... :lol:
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Yep. I think we are getting wrapped up in semantics.
Correct , thats defined as input sensitivity , you will now have to increase the input drive to reach full power..
You had it right in the previous post. :thumb:
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Hillarious .... :lol:
Huh? Not clear on what is hilarious. :scratch:
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So to be clear, amp can still reach full power with sufficient voltage with the gain adjustments dialed down?
Yes.
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I only care about the best setting for the SQ. 9-12 o'clock is it. :thumb:
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Yes.
No, it can't (under normal usage).
The only way it could reach full power is IF the incoming voltage is way higher than the average 1-2 volts, and the scaled down voltage was sufficient achieve a full powered output.
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The only way it could reach full power is IF the incoming voltage is way higher than the average 1-2 volts.
Correct and many active preamps can provide more than enough gain to make up for the reduced input sensitivity on the amp.
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Correct and many active preamps can provide more than enough gain to make up for the reduced input sensitivity on the amp.
Depends on the scaling factor on the amp/attenuator setup. I would argue that at 9 o'clock, the attenuation would be significant to restrict the output power from achieving anywhere near full output from MOST preamps.
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Depends on the scaling factor on the amp/attenuator setup. I would argue that at 9 o'clock, the attenuation would be significant to restrict the output power from achieving anywhere near full output from MOST preamps.
Yep. I think we are getting wrapped up in semantics.
You went from painting with a very broad brush to a little thin line I can barely see.
Of course each system will be different, so gain staging will vary.
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No, it can't (under normal usage).
The only way it could reach full power is IF the incoming voltage is way higher than the average 1-2 volts, and the scaled down voltage was sufficient achieve a full powered output.
Good thing I have a preamp that can put out some serious voltage. From the Stereophile measurements: "Only at around 10V output level (!) does the distortion start to rise above the noise floor." And with a 15V input (OK, true I'm not going to find a source like that), my kW preamp still wasn't clipping while outputting 54.7V :o.
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Maybe if you try reading a little slower and think about what you have read it will help.
You went from painting with a very broad brush to a little thin line I can barely see.
Of course each system will be different, so gain staging will vary.
And maybe if you thought about the original post (that it is very doubtful that full power can be achieved with the knobs at 9 o'clock), we would not have to have the back and forth. That is barely off the lower end, which would have a significant amount of attenuation. It is hard to tell exactly how the scaling is setup.
I think everybody gets it now.
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(that it is very doubtful that full power can be achieved with the knobs at 9 o'clock),
It depends, is the actual answer (like most things in our hobby).
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It would be fairly easy to work out, if a source is connected directly to the unit. If the connection is XLR, it would achieve full power at a lower setting than if it was RCA.
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And back to listening impressions I hope...
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It's important that listening impressions are taken in context. It's already been posted that the amp sounds different (better) when the volume knobs on the amp are at 9 o'clock. That means that the efficiency of the speakers, along with the input, needs to be understood to evaluate. If speakers are say, 85 to 87 db/w, and a source of 2 volts is connected, listening impressions could be very different, as the amp may not achieve full power configured like this. The input volume knobs may need to be at 2 to 3 o'clock to achieve full power.
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It's important that listening impressions are taken in context. It's already been posted that the amp sounds different (better) when the volume knobs on the amp are at 9 o'clock. That means that the efficiency of the speakers, along with the input, needs to be understood to evaluate. If speakers are say, 85 to 87 db/w, and a source of 2 volts is connected, listening impressions could be very different.
+1 :green:
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+1 :green:
Cheers, Mate! I had hoped we would all get on the same page here.
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Those Crown amps look intriguing for the money. I have a Virtue 2 on my Maggies in the living room, I could put a Crown on those and give them the power they really want, and another one on my spare set of M&K's and finally get a theater going out there. Some EMO theater receiver action and I'm set.
I knew once the Ncores were introduced, class D would get better and cheaper, quickly. I doubt the Crown is on par with Ncore technology, but I've heard the TBI Millennia (which wasn't even close to Ncore in any way possible, was OzarkTom's modded tour amp, not even close), and it was a very good amp.
Eventually though, I'd say within 5-10 years we will have Ncore class amps (best of the best sound quality with no need for external power filtering or stupid cables - even the Crown amp advertises this), huge power, supreme performance, commodity prices.
They will be dime a dozen and far superior to the ancient, extremely expensive space heaters that came before.
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It's important that listening impressions are taken in context. It's already been posted that the amp sounds different (better) when the volume knobs on the amp are at 9 o'clock. That means that the efficiency of the speakers, along with the input, needs to be understood to evaluate. If speakers are say, 85 to 87 db/w, and a source of 2 volts is connected, listening impressions could be very different, as the amp may not achieve full power configured like this. The input volume knobs may need to be at 2 to 3 o'clock to achieve full power.
It is nice to have the option to lower it or crank it up. 9 0'clock setting gives me about 20-25 WPC on my 85db Zellatons.. 12 o'clock and it is more like 75-100 WPC. I will never use the 375 WPC.
Listening impressions are coming shortly. :thumb:
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Those Crown amps look intriguing for the money. I have a Virtue 2 on my Maggies in the living room, I could put a Crown on those and give them the power they really want, and another one on my spare set of M&K's and finally get a theater going out there. Some EMO theater receiver action and I'm set.
I knew once the Ncores were introduced, class D would get better and cheaper, quickly. I doubt the Crown is on par with Ncore technology, but I've heard the TBI Millennia (which wasn't even close to Ncore in any way possible, was OzarkTom's modded tour amp, not even close), and it was a very good amp.
Eventually though, I'd say within 5-10 years we will have Ncore class amps (best of the best sound quality with no need for external power filtering or stupid cables - even the Crown amp advertises this), huge power, supreme performance, commodity prices.
They will be dime a dozen and far superior to the ancient, extremely expensive space heaters that came before.
A little too much hype! :lol:
Some Class D amps do sound pretty damn good. I actually think the Yamaha MX-D1 sounds better than the NCore, but it's like splitting hairs.
However, there will always be audiophiles who prefer the sounds coming a well made tube setup. Tubes are more linear than any sand amp, regardless of topology.
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It is nice to have the option to lower it or crank it up. 9 0'clock setting gives me about 20-25 WPC on my 85db Zellatons.. 12 o'clock and it is more like 75-100 WPC. I will never use the 375 WPC.
Listening impressions are coming shortly. :thumb:
Looking forward to them!
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Not hype, it's inevitable, it's too obvious.
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I doubt the Crown is on par with Ncore technology, but I've heard the TBI Millennia (which wasn't even close to Ncore in any way possible, was OzarkTom's modded tour amp, not even close), and it was a very good amp.
Did you forget the two Ncore owners that thought the TBI sounded better in the midrange?
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either confirmation bias or earwax IMO :)
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Let's be honest, the TBI is an extremely cheaply built little amp with small power output. I wouldn't pay more than $100 for one.
It's just a couple little domino sized circuit boards thrown in a box. Now that's "hype"
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The TBI is sooo last flavor of the month....
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The TBI is sooo last flavor of the month....
I noticed this too. We're on to the next.
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Here we go again
(http://momsagainstcooties.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/UrineIndicatorDye-copy-300x267.jpg)
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Oh, by all means, carry on. Believe whatever you want. You guys are ripe for the picking.
I heard both amps. Better midrange? At 32 watts peak? More like clip clip clip
You must all run speakers made of stationary paper.
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But the TBI is a great sounding amp with appropriate speakers. With a power hungry speaker like a Maggie, not a great choice.
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Yup, I think the mass of the cones on my single drivers is around 2 grams. It sounds like an electrostat, but better because it's a point source. On my speakers the TBI sounded good. But from my memory the Crown is a good bit better.
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Oh, by all means, carry on. Believe whatever you want. You guys are ripe for the picking.
I heard both amps. Better midrange? At 32 watts peak? More like clip clip clip
You must all run speakers made of stationary paper.
Go find a Yamaha MX-D1 and compare. You may be surprised. Then, go listen to a high powered tube rig. That will be a ear opening experience.
There are many ways to achieve audio nirvana.
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Go find a Yamaha MX-D1 and compare. You may be surprised. Then, go listen to a high powered tube rig. That will be a ear opening experience.
Wow, vintage class d! :thumb:
That design is what, 10 years old? I have to think the state of the art has advanced a bit...
Weren't you pumped up on '80's or '90's Japanese receivers not too long ago?
Whatever floats your boat.
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It's important that listening impressions are taken in context. It's already been posted that the amp sounds different (better) when the volume knobs on the amp are at 9 o'clock. That means that the efficiency of the speakers, along with the input, needs to be understood to evaluate. If speakers are say, 85 to 87 db/w, and a source of 2 volts is connected, listening impressions could be very different, as the amp may not achieve full power configured like this. The input volume knobs may need to be at 2 to 3 o'clock to achieve full power.
This could be due to a few reason , impedance matching and or amp noise floor level. Increasing the gain changes both , wideopen lets you hear more into the noise floor of the amplfier while changing the impedance seen by the pre-amp, 'nothing to do with limiting power output .
Regards
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Wow, vintage class d! :thumb:
That design is what, 10 years old? I have to think the state of the art has advanced a bit...
Weren't you pumped up on '80's or '90's Japanese receivers not too long ago?
Whatever floats your boat.
The design was very advanced when it came out, with many unique features. Folks I know who have ACTUALLY heard it compared to other Class D amps report it's better sonically.
Try to find one and compare. You will be plesantly surprised. Over on AK, a guy with a EE reviewed the circuit,, and says its still current. It has a custom digital filer setup, as opposed to analog.
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This could be due to a few reason , impedance matching and or amp noise floor level. Increasing the gain changes both , wideopen lets you hear more into the noise floor of the amplfier while changing the impedance seen by the pre-amp, 'nothing to do with limiting power output .
Regards
It scales down the input voltage, which reduces the output power. :duh:
Not difficult to understand.If you scale it way down, the amp simply cannot achieve rated output power.
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Here we go again
(http://momsagainstcooties.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/UrineIndicatorDye-copy-300x267.jpg)
No kidding.
-Jim
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My system consists:
Crown XLS2000 amp-Job 225 amp with Virtue Audio power cord
Sony HAP-Z1ES with Job Sweetcord
Itube as Pre with Astron Power supply and Reality power cable
Zellaton Emotion Speakers
Reality IC cables
Vaughn speaker cables
I made several comparisons last night with my set-up. I first tried by-passing the Itube qnd going direct form the Sony to the Crown. That was a big disappointment. It sounded flat and un-emotional. I searched for my balanced cables to go XLR direct but only found one. :evil:
Then I tried switching to the Job amp. I don't like to A/B switch back and forth comparing because you always have to turn the amps off. You never get a fair comparison.
The way I like to compare is, do I miss the other amp? Ever since I have had the Crown on, I have never missed the Job. After about an Hour of listening to the Job, I said yeah, I miss that Crown and switched back.
The Crown is clearer, more detail, better focus, giving the Crown a bigger soundstage. The Crown is more forward as Dave has said, putting you up front in the first five rows of a concert. The Job and Ncores sounds like more in the 10-15 rows. The Job is more laid back and fuzzier, all recordings including bad ones, sounds good with the Job. Vocals are not as clear and defined.
On the Crown, if your recording has the meat, it will play the meat. Recording is analytical, it will sound analytical. It was hard to tear myself away tonight since the amp now has about 170 hours on it and sounds even better than last night. Since my wife was gone, I cranked it up. The detail and focus of the vocals is stunning. It is hard to imagine anything better but I am sure there is. I would not be afraid to compare this Crown to any other Class D amp no matter what the price. But most here will probably never will, it does not have any snob appeal. It is the best sounding Class D that I have ever had in my home.
I never expected this amp to surpass my Job amp, but for me it does. Some here will prefer the Job. If the Job was $300 and the Crown was $1700, I would still buy the Crown. At very low listening levels, the Crown really takes the cake. I like comparing different amps, and for 300 bucks, I said why not. Life is short, play with as many toys as you can. :thumb:
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I hate to break it to you guys but the distortion and Thd on these Crown amps are dismal. .5% with 103 db noise respectably. Class's D needs very good specs to get it right. That's just the nature of the beast.
Once working it's just a battery of treble clamber and fatigueing playback otherwise, not good.
With gain you want to set the gain to a voltage ratio of 1 on the amp. The gain adjustment on the amp goes from 0 to 10. Likely 0 to plus 10db voltage gain. To get to a ratio of 1 - iI would guess the 9:00 pm setting would be about right.
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Interesting. Thanks for the comparison Tom. At some point I'd like to get beefier speakers that need more juice than the TPA can provide. I'll give the Crown a go. Amazing the quality you can get in all things audio at an affordable price these days.
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I switched from the SET to the Crown and I pretty much forgot I switched amps after a short time. I agree with Tom, it's a really good amp and not just for the price.
The power advantage is hard to ignore, monoblock the 1500 and get dual mono + about 1000 WPC for the $600-800 range. That's amazing, and really a no-brainer, many speakers of average sensitivity sound best with the most powerful amp you can get behind them.
The THD and noise on the Crown is better than my SET amp and it's a great amp too, those measurements are fine. It's not a fatiguing amp either, not even close. The edge and noise that can plague some D amps seems to be completely absent.
Anyway... Congrats Harmon! :rock:
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Interesting. Thanks for the comparison Tom. At some point I'd like to get beefier speakers that need more juice than the TPA can provide. I'll give the Crown a go. Amazing the quality you can get in all things audio at an affordable price these days.
And the amp is super quiet.
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Are you guys plugging the Crown straight into the wall?
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I don't give two shits if an amp has 90% distortion, if I prefer it, I prefer it. Distortion is an indicator of potential sound, not a determiner of sound.
It's like obesity, it means you could have heart disease, but it's not for sure.
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Are you guys plugging the Crown straight into the wall?
I am.
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I don't give two shits if an amp has 90% distortion, if I prefer it, I prefer it. Distortion is an indicator of potential sound, not a determiner of sound.
It's like obesity, it means you could have heart disease, but it's not for sure.
:o
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The edge and noise that can plague some D amps seems to be completely absent.
You nailed it there... :lol:
if it wasnt for the high power you wouldnt touch this amps...
dont say bad things about the vs rest though... :o
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This line of Crown Digital Drive Core amps have less wattage, but have a better S/N ratio:
http://www.crownaudio.com/comtech-drivecore.html
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107651)
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/wysiwyg/CT_Dowloads/ComTech_Datasheet.pdf
They run from $1100-$2500
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I don't give two shits if an amp has 90% distortion, if I prefer it, I prefer it. Distortion is an indicator of potential sound, not a determiner of sound.
It's like obesity, it means you could have heart disease, but it's not for sure.
Not with class D or even A/B. Especially with class D using a SMPS. All that can go wrong with Class D shows up in the distortion and noise. Current sinking back into the PS and switching on/offs reveals itself in playback. This is why Class D generally sucked for years.
Class A or tube driven AB seems to be a lot more forgiving. But no way on bad specs using Class D. Forget it it's poopoo.
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class D You want to get into the 120Db s/n with like .005% distortion range.
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There are too many counter examples to what you say. It's not a simple equation as you suggest.
You can have a very clean PSU, and higher distortion class D, yet very good sound. The distortion caused by the problematic power incoming will have a very negative effect, where as the chips for class D are not predictable this way for self distortion.
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I am.
That is by all accounts truly amazing. I don't need more than a few watts, but Crown is calling my name.
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There are too many counter examples to what you say. It's not a simple equation as you suggest.
You can have a very clean PSU, and higher distortion class D, yet very good sound. The distortion caused by the problematic power incoming will have a very negative effect, where as the chips for class D are not predictable this way for self distortion.
Yes, it's a very simple equation. That's the beauty of Class D. Class D is great and all the great Class D amps are excellently spec'ed. Look for good specs and pick one that you like. We are there now with Class D. You got a vendor right here on AC that puts out class D with specs like that. Marachino amps look great.
You get what you pay for. Crown amp with shit specs that weighs 10lbs ... Cmon. If you are going to give me .5% distortion at least weigh more than 10lbs using a beefy power toroidal. :lol:
I am not trying to be a dick but there is no easy way with amplification.
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werd, there's a good chance that some distortion was programmed into the amp in order to voice it like a tube amp. Harmon touts this as an achievement, they have 5 patents on the Drive Core technology. If you don't want to trust Tom and I that it's a very good amp then get one yourself and see... you should know measurements aren't everything.
It's not an "easy way" either, D amps have been around for a long time and most of them are not very good, the Crown Drive Core is the result of a lot of cash being thrown at R&D. This is one of the few good D amps available at any price.
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This is interesting. Many well regarded SET amps run 1% THD and have much worse signal to noise ratios. A DF of 200 isn't bad either. I thought I read on the factory site that the chip front end of the Crown amps ran class AB.
I'll probably get a 1500 just to play around with it.
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werd is right, smps are noisy... 8)
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Werd, my TPA3116 sounds better than Bel Canto monoblocks. Even if I didn't use any parts I have, sub $200 right now.
Sorry, but the days of cheap amplification is here... It'll still run you upwards of $600 as a product unless it's total Chinese manufacturing. Now the irony, so are the days of good power conditioning as the most fundamental part of any system, and the costs are higher than the amps by far :lol:
I'm not sold on SMPS's. But I don't build linears everyone else does either. It's complicated when a bunch of class D require dual rail and aux, these days.
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werd, there's a good chance that some distortion was programmed into the amp in order to voice it like a tube amp. Harmon touts this as an achievement, they have 5 patents on the Drive Core technology. If you don't want to trust Tom and I that it's a very good amp then get one yourself and see... you should know measurements aren't everything.
It's not an "easy way" either, D amps have been around for a long time and most of them are not very good, the Crown Drive Core is the result of a lot of cash being thrown at R&D. This is one of the few good D amps available at any price.
Dude there are no Class D amps with .5% distortion that are any good. I know I still owe you some words on your excellent cables but I am going to lay it flat out. Specs on class D are paramount. The noise on those amps blow and the distortion is worse. Good sub amp maybe or PA at a shitty wedding.
I grew up with class D in my car. It's embedded in my audio psyche. Ive got the mother lode of Class D in my house atm. This is truly a great amp and shows how important specs are.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107652)
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Werd, my TPA3116 sounds better than Bel Canto monoblocks. Even if I didn't use any parts I have, sub $200 right now.
Sorry, but the days of cheap amplification is here... It'll still run you upwards of $600 as a product unless it's total Chinese manufacturing. Now the irony, so are the days of good power conditioning as the most fundamental part of any system, and the costs are higher than the amps by far :lol:
I'm not sold on SMPS's. But I don't build linears everyone else does either. It's complicated when a bunch of class D require dual rail and aux, these days.
No the days of cheap amps are not here. Not at all. This is a sales tactic i have seen before. Speaker manufacturers are notorious at belittling the industry to enable a marketing campaign to spend more on speakers. The idea is sell down everything else and market the speakers as the most important part. Well I agree speakers are important but cheating out on amps, TTs or dacs is devasting to the unknowing listener that loves music enough to venture down the path of great Hi Fi
I don't buy your story. Not at all.
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No the days of cheap amps are not here. Not at all. This is a sales tactic i have seen before. Speaker manufacturers are notorious at belittling the industry to enable a marketing campaign to spend more on speakers. The idea is sell down everything else and market the speakers as the most important part. Well I agree speakers are important but cheating out on amps, TTs or dacs is devasting to the unknowing listener that loves music enough to venture down the path of great Hi Fi
I don't buy your story. Not at all.
:scratch:
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:scratch:
Am I to assume this is the response of some body who invested in these amps? Do not take it to heart they are still amps. Probably not bad but who cares they are cheap. What did you Expect? Entrance and acceptance into audiophile heaven for $300?
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it's like comparing fm to cd... :lol:
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I don't sell the TPA3116... In fact there is no marketing for it besides DIY.
All of the engineers of high end gear will tell you design is first, before parts, and parts are the $. There's no $80 transistors in these things.
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I don't sell the TPA3116... In fact there is no marketing for it besides DIY.
All of the engineers of high end gear will tell you design is first, before parts, and parts are the $. There's no $80 transistors in these things.
Anybody trying to build a system should ask me since I do not sell NOTHING. I do not care how much you want to spend and I not interested in your feedback.
You should probably learn that very engaging bit of social enlightenment.
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Am I to assume this is the response of some body who invested in these amps? Do not take it to heart they are still amps. Probably not bad but who cares they are cheap. What did you Expect? Entrance and acceptance into audiophile heaven for $300?
So you say cheap? Since they're so cheap, why don't you buy the Crown and judge for yourself? How can you seriously judge it without listening?
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Because I have heard enough Class D and watched it evolve into a legitment powerhouse in amplification. I was expecting a decent spec. When I finally looked at it (not heard) I realized the reality. Do not waist my time with - oh you haven't heard it. I get that - not heard. What's your point?
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Werd, can you see the benefits to having an all in one chip, as opposed to many yesteryear class D options?
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That is not enough info? What do you mean "all in one chip"
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From what I saw in the spec sheet, Crown use 0.5% THD as the point where they decide on the power output rating. The only spec for THD says "< 0.5%". It's not unreasonable to assume that anywhere below the "knee" it's considerably lower.
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From what I saw in the spec sheet, Crown use 0.5% THD as the point where they decide on the power output rating. The only spec for THD says "< 0.5%". It's not unreasonable to assume that anywhere below the "knee" it's considerably lower.
So amp specs are dependant on what? Marachino amps are .002% distortion on any feel good scenario? .5% is embarrassing and bad for distortion.
But you raise a good point. How often distortion raises it's ugly head. When is it .005 and when is it 1%.due to it being in "working mode" ?
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I returned mine yesterday only to free up the funds for a new SS preamp (NuForce MCP-18). I will watch this thread to see how things play out. When the time comes, may re-buy the Crown again, but this time order two at once, for mono amp use. If they take as long to break in as is suggested here, I would want both amps breaking in together.
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...I never expected this amp to surpass my Job amp, but for me it does. Some here will prefer the Job. If the Job was $300 and the Crown was $1700, I would still buy the Crown. At very low listening levels, the Crown really takes the cake. I like comparing different amps, and for 300 bucks, I said why not. Life is short, play with as many toys as you can. :thumb:
Thanks for the comparison. I can only assume I didn't give my 1500 sufficient break in time.
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Thanks for the comparison. I can only assume I didn't give my 1500 sufficient break in time.
Yep, none of this equipment sounds very good unless you break it in properly.
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Because I have heard enough Class D and watched it evolve into a legitment powerhouse in amplification. I was expecting a decent spec. When I finally looked at it (not heard) I realized the reality. Do not waist my time with - oh you haven't heard it. I get that - not heard. What's your point?
He sounds just like me until I tried this Crown.
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Anybody trying to build a system should ask me since I do not sell NOTHING. I do not care how much you want to spend and I not interested in your feedback.
You should probably learn that very engaging bit of social enlightenment.
Ok, I will bite. So what speakers and amp do you recommend?
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Yep, none of this equipment sounds very good unless you break it in properly.
At least this next time around, I will have a pre with high gain, low output impedance, and balanced outputs. So I will be able to play with the Crowns input levels more. And I can always add a tube stage upstream if need be later.
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I can respect that some hobbyists decide which equipment is good or bad, strictly on specs. Back in the 80s when I was new to the hobby, I would go out to the newstand and buy the new Audio Magazine Equipment Guide and narrow down potential equipment choices by looking at the specs and the prices! And later by reading literature in which opinions are given but tainted by a vested interest. As the audio magazines have shown, you can have a vested interest (or even a bias) without actually selling the item. I'm glad that a few hobbyists still make unbiased decisions by actually listening to a piece of equipment.
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At least this next time around, I will have a pre with high gain, low output impedance, and balanced outputs. So I will be able to play with the Crowns input levels more. And I can always add a tube stage upstream if need be later.
Here are some articles on gain structure:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-receivers-processors-amps/35677-gain-structure-home-theater-getting-most-pro-audio-equipment-your-system.html
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Because I have heard enough Class D and watched it evolve into a legitment powerhouse in amplification. I was expecting a decent spec. When I finally looked at it (not heard) I realized the reality. Do not waist my time with - oh you haven't heard it. I get that - not heard. What's your point?
Are you selling Marachino amps? :lol:
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Ok, I will bite. So what speakers and amp do you recommend?
Ok I know I sound like a Dick but contraire to what people might think I like all you guys. But I have to say in audio a lot of folk here appear to be their own worst enemy. They run to the next fad with hope and gleam that they've found the next hidden lil gem. Got some news. That ain't happening.
If the criteria for an amp is cheap buy a $300 Crown. But if you do not know what you want in amplification then diving head first into the next fad is just a waste of money.
You are asking what should you buy. I need to know what the criteria or preference in amplification is first. Do you like low distortion and noise SS amps or are you willing to give up feedback for low feedback class A tube distortion How do you like your sound?
Amps are like car engines. Some amps sound like all their performance is wound up in first gear like a big ole Diesel engine. All the umph is in low gear like high power Class A. Some amps are like engines you find in a dubbed up Hyundai. You gotta get it to speed and it winds around the track at 8000 rpm like. Don't fall to low in rpm or it'll bag out.. like 100 watt Class D amps. Those amps need to be revved up to get a what ever transients it can muster out. Usually not much..lol.
So I am not going to tell yah get this high feedback low distortion 100 watt class AB amp if you want to be sitting in first gear listening to tube distortion.
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Are you selling Marachino amps? :lol:
Now that funny :lol: :lol: :lol:
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As a former dealer. I sold Classe, David Berning, NYAL Futtermans, Threshold, Bryston, Hafler, Bedini, Conrad Johnson, Spectral, Musical Fidelity, Aragon, Belles, Rowland and a few others for amps.
For speakers, I sold Celestion, KEF, Acoustat, VMPS, Spendor, Meridian, Mordaunt Short, Castle, B&W, Pro-Ac, Goetz, Rogers, and a few others.
So what would you say is a great amp and Speakers?
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Werd,
You like to portray yourself as an expert, dispensing wisdom to the unwashed masses.
What are your qualifications? Were you born with perfect pitch? Do you have an EE? Have you ever built an amplifier? Do you play a musical instrument?
BTW, how's your hearing? When was the last time you had it checked?
How did you come to the conclusion that you know it all?
I checked your equipment list. Hmm... so you're into fancy and expensive wire. Did measure the specs on this boutique wire?
You paid North of $2000 for some 10' speaker cables! :lol: OTOH you won't cough up $300 to check out an amp! That must be mere pocket change to you. :P
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As a former dealer. I sold Classe, David Berning, NYAL Futtermans, Threshold, Bryston, Hafler, Bedini, Conrad Johnson, Spectral, Musical Fidelity, Aragon, Belles, Rowland and a few others for amps.
For speakers, I sold Celestion, KEF, Acoustat, VMPS, Spendor, Meridian, Mordaunt Short, Castle, B&W, Pro-Ac, Goetz, Rogers, and a few others.
So what would you say is a great amp and Speakers?
What was your favourite amp?
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werd, I for one would like to see you answer some of the questions posed by rajacat and OzarkTom. It's time you established some credentials, with all your pontificating.
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Werd,
You like to portray yourself as an expert, dispensing wisdom to the unwashed masses.
What are your qualifications? Were you born with perfect pitch? Do you have an EE? Have you ever built an amplifier? Do you play a musical instrument?
BTW, how's your hearing? When was the last time you had it checked?
How did you come to the conclusion that you know it all?
I checked your equipment list. Hmm... so you're into fancy and expensive wire. Did measure the specs on this boutique wire?
You paid North of $2000 for some 10' speaker cables! :lol: OTOH you won't cough up $300 to check out an amp! That must be mere pocket change to you. :P
Went looking for it and couldn't find a vendor to rent. Picked up the York vile for $10 on half price Oct. at L&M.
I got the cable used for about $500. $2k is steep but the new Synchrony2's are worth it at $2k.
I'm a master of my own ceremonies. Don't know it all but there some basic rule of thumbs that are hard not to point out here, Like Class D needs to be low distortion and noise. Switching distortion is brutal. It's the worst output distortion there is. If this amp is .5% all the transients are going to be fatiguing when it pulls for transient power.
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Back in the seventies many people assumed that the lower THD, the better / cleaner the sound. However gradually as more and more people actually listened with their ears rather than referring to specs on paper, there came enlightenment as to what truly sounded good rather than what ignorance and wishful thinking would dictate as must sound good.
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Went looking for it and couldn't find a vendor to rent. Picked up the York vile for $10 on half price Oct. at L&M.
I got the cable used for about $500. $2k is steep but the new Synchrony2's are worth it at $2k.
I'm a master of my own ceremonies. Don't know it all but there some basic rule of thumbs that are hard not to point out here, Like Class D needs to be low distortion and noise. Switching distortion is brutal. It's the worst output distortion there is. If this amp is .5% all the transients are going to be fatiguing when it pulls for transient power.
Agreed that switching noise is brutal. That is why not all class"D" amps are not the same. OEM power modules are OK however a custom made power supply can be much better implemented. Yes more expensive however worth their weight.Then there are hybrid class "D" amps. These designs bring natural weight and soul to the party.
There are options. Disclaimer we are dealers for Arion. If my post appears self serving please remove. Not sure if I can comment.
charles
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What was your favourite amp?
You first, and then I will respond.
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Agreed that switching noise is brutal. That is why not all class"D" amps are not the same. OEM power modules are OK however a custom made power supply can be much better implemented. Yes more expensive however worth their weight.Then there are hybrid class "D" amps. These designs bring natural weight and soul to the party.
There are options. Disclaimer we are dealers for Arion. If my post appears self serving please remove. Not sure if I can comment.
charles
My Chapter integrated is a hybrid and it's like that. Nice toroidal powering class D. With seriously low distortion I guess pointing out the big elephant standing in the room isn't very popular here but oh well.
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My Chapter integrated is a hybrid and it's like that. Nice toroidal powering class D. With seriously low distortion I guess pointing out the big elephant standing in the room isn't very popular here but oh well.
And speakers?
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I guess pointing out the big elephant standing in the room isn't very popular here but oh well.
The only elephant is in your mind. You've stated your opinion, the people that have evaluated the amp by actually listening to it think you're wrong.
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Now Dats funny ..... :lol:
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Maybe I should change the name of this thread to " The Class D Crown Appreciation Thread" :lol:
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And speakers?
What are you asking me? You list a bunch of amps and speakers and ask which ones are good. That doesn't make any sense. Good at what?
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Maybe I should change the name of this thread to " The Class D Crown Appreciation Thread" :lol:
Lol, I know... and it's all my fault. :P
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What are you asking me? You list a bunch of amps and speakers and ask which ones are good. That doesn't make any sense. Good at what?
You said you would recommend me a great sounding pair of speakers. If the speakers are great, all well recorded recordings are going to sound great. What speakers do you use?
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Lol, I know... and it's all my fault. :P
+1
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You said you would recommend me a great sounding pair of speakers. If the speakers are great, all well recorded recordings are going to sound great. What speakers do you use?
Check out my system profile, it's up to date.
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Lol, I know... and it's all my fault. :P
Did you put a decent fuse in it?
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Here are some articles on gain structure:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-receivers-processors-amps/35677-gain-structure-home-theater-getting-most-pro-audio-equipment-your-system.html
Thanks, bookmarked.
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So, guys - to make a long story short, what are you recommending?
Stereo Crown XLS 2000 or 2500
Or
Mono Crown XLS 1500s?
.....and the Crown(s) is better than Job or NCore?
I'm buying an amp and will try what's best on my Maggie 3.7s.
Thanks.
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On my Zellatons, the Crown is my favorite.. I would worry about the Job having enough power for your Maggie's. Crown 1500 puts out 525 Wpc into 4 ohms, that should work. Buy one and if you like it, buy a second. I am trying the high-pass filter this weekend to see if that improves the highs. Bi-amping your Maggie's just might sound the best.
Ncores never worked at my place, but I am sure they are very close.
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The Zellatons are a heck of a speaker so the Crown is a serious recommendation.
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So, guys - to make a long story short, what are you recommending?
Stereo Crown XLS 2000 or 2500
Or
Mono Crown XLS 1500s?
.....and the Crown(s) is better than Job or NCore?
I'm buying an amp and will try what's best on my Maggie 3.7s.
Thanks.
Hmmm. For cost/benefit, I would go with mono Crown 1500's. Maggies are very power hungry, but not a hard load on the amp.
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Actually there's an irony that while an SMPS might make noise, you're often hearing what the class D control and drive section make because of the SMPS :lol:
Hypex talks about proximity playing a huge roll, for a good reason. I'm actually curious to a degree about their oscillation frequency; it might be high so the SMPS filter will create a situation where the unbiblical cord isn't a hinderance. You'll notice Pascal and ICE are one unit, they may not use as high of oscillations. (Higher oscillation frequency can cause some issues, but is easy for noise reduction)
No idea on what Crown uses... Maybe I should stare at pictures longer.
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Anyone ever try the Peavey Class D stuff? Specs out a little better in terms of SNR vs. the Crown XLS series.
-Jim
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I hope this fine thread can stay “on track” regarding class D amps, the Crown amps, class d versus others, etc. FWIW, I rarely comment on threads, but I’ll make an exception, now.
I’m here to learn and always feel grateful when members with greater experience choose to share their insights. Tom, Dave, Salis, Roscoeii, Wushuliu et al, --thank you! I’m often aiming to figure out what I might “try next” and know damn well I don’t have the experience you guys have. I imagine many AC readers read threads for similar reasons.
Let’s be realistic and honest--we all have our biases, beliefs and varied experiences.
The most valuable information is based on comparative experience. I think it’s odd for someone to hold a steadfast position about a piece of gear without ever having heard that piece of gear, regardless of his experience with “allegedly” similar gear.
And, for you well intended AC members, perhaps it’s best not to expend too much energy to A) understand, B) discredit or C) question the “authority” of someone who holds nearly unshakable opinions about a specific piece of gear he’s never heard.
Did you “know” what a tube amp or tube pre-amp sounded like before you heard one? I didn’t know what an open baffle speaker sounded like before I listened to one.
As for distortion, it’s but one measurement and everyone knows that specs “don’t tell the whole story” about any piece of gear. Maybe we haven’t even evolved enough to know ALL the proper parameters to measure! Some people like tube distortion; some don’t. I intend no disrespect to anyone; rather I’m aiming to respect the efforts of those taking the time to listen and comment on gear based on actual experience and not based upon conjecture and presupposition. I’m not here to add flames to the war; rather to encourage us to stay on track with the discussion.
Thanks everyone.
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Anyone ever try the Peavey Class D stuff? Specs out a little better in terms of SNR vs. the Crown XLS series.
-Jim
I like the look of peavey. They look snazzy. I am going to head back to L@M and see if they got any Peavey amps.
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Does anybody remember when the Carver Pro Tripath based amp was the flavor of the month.
(http://images.canford.co.uk/Images/ItemImages/large/94-150_01.jpg)
Fortunately the Crown amps are cheaper to try than the Carvers were.
Scotty
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The best part about it is they are only $300 bucks. It's not like its a $5k amp. When you get bored of them and you are going to get bored of them you can sell and lose $20. You guys are hard up on Crown Amps and getting pissed over nothing. Literally nothing
Must buy Crown amps
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The best part about it is they are only $300 bucks. It's not like its a $5k amp. When you get bored of them and you are going to get bored of them you can sell and lose $20. You guys are hard up on Crown Amps and getting pissed over nothing. Literally nothing
Must buy Crown amps
Yep, that is what I said. :D
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If someone here would like to try a 2500, thiere is a reasonable buy-it-now for $395 on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crown-xls2500-power-amplifier-/171519471365?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Amplifiers&hash=item27ef5b6f05
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I hope this fine thread can stay “on track” regarding class D amps, the Crown amps, class d versus others, etc. FWIW, I rarely comment on threads, but I’ll make an exception, now.
I’m here to learn and always feel grateful when members with greater experience choose to share their insights. Tom, Dave, Salis, Roscoeii, Wushuliu et al, --thank you! I’m often aiming to figure out what I might “try next” and know damn well I don’t have the experience you guys have. I imagine many AC readers read threads for similar reasons.
Let’s be realistic and honest--we all have our biases, beliefs and varied experiences.
The most valuable information is based on comparative experience. I think it’s odd for someone to hold a steadfast position about a piece of gear without ever having heard that piece of gear, regardless of his experience with “allegedly” similar gear.
And, for you well intended AC members, perhaps it’s best not to expend too much energy to A) understand, B) discredit or C) question the “authority” of someone who holds nearly unshakable opinions about a specific piece of gear he’s never heard.
Did you “know” what a tube amp or tube pre-amp sounded like before you heard one? I didn’t know what an open baffle speaker sounded like before I listened to one.
As for distortion, it’s but one measurement and everyone knows that specs “don’t tell the whole story” about any piece of gear. Maybe we haven’t even evolved enough to know ALL the proper parameters to measure! Some people like tube distortion; some don’t. I intend no disrespect to anyone; rather I’m aiming to respect the efforts of those taking the time to listen and comment on gear based on actual experience and not based upon conjecture and presupposition. I’m not here to add flames to the war; rather to encourage us to stay on track with the discussion.
Thanks everyone.
I could not have said this any better. Solid advice, but I think many arrogant, thick skulled, stupid and/or ignorant ones will pass it by. I wish I had a dime for every "expert" I've met, then later to find they are not.
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Many of us have been denied the ability to discern between what we actually know and what we have chosen to embrace as fact.
Those people are very sure of themselves and their info.
Most audiophiles are perpetually seeking a bellwether.
I'd like meet the guy who invented sex so I could ask him what he's working on now.
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Many of us have been denied the ability to discern between what we actually know and what we have chosen to embrace as fact.
Those people are very sure of themselves and their info.
Most audiophiles are perpetually seeking a bellwether.
I'd like meet the guy who invented sex so I could ask him what he's working on now.
Great post!
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Maybe it wasn't a guy.
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Since we're slumming here (this will drive werd crazy : :icon_twisted:) , how about considering the iNukes? Only $200 for the Behringer NU1000DSP iNuke Power Amplifier for 2 x 300 Watts into 4 Ohms. :D That includes dsp capabilities. :o Or you can get w/o dsp for $150. VERY cheap watts.
http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-NU1000DSP-iNuke-Power-Amplifier/dp/B005EHIN3A/ref=sr_1_cc_2?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1414692740&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=inuke+dsp
Vapor Audio is using it to power its 8" subwoofer integrated stand used in conjunction with the Sundog Black.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=123928.0
Anybody have experience with the iNukes?
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I was just looking at those about 20 minutes ago. You need xlr and Speakon out only.
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Maybe it wasn't a guy.
Don't you think it would be a lot different than it is if a woman designed it?
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I was just looking at those about 20 minutes ago. You need xlr and Speakon out only.
Those don't sound like insurmountable obstacles.
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I was just looking at those about 20 minutes ago. You need xlr and Speakon out only.
XLR only? Incorrect.
TS/TRS works just fine.
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Those don't sound like insurmountable obstacles.
No but I am not going to spend another $10 on Speakon connects to hear what a $300 amp sounds like.
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XLR only? Incorrect.
TS/TRS works just fine.
I guess if you want to use phono, Hell it might even be the new craze everyone can jump on here
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I guess if you want to use phono, Hell it might even be the new craze everyone can jump on here
New craze? TS / TRS have been around for ages in the pro-audio world.
Speakon connectors have been around a long time, too.
-Jim
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Actually, I'm looking for a power amp to use with my dyi waveguide speakers for the 15" woofers that will cross @ ~650hz to the tweeters and will hand over @ ~ 65hz to distributed subs. Compression drivers will power the 18" SEOS waveguides. Modified Heathkit W5m tube monoblocks will power the CDs'. MiniDSP will do the active crossover work.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-khOGNZOGGCc/VD3GHmwDBSI/AAAAAAAABX0/SMukcc8Gkv8/w437-h582-no/P1080368.JPG)
Still have to complete the WG box with a nice hardwood top. :)
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Looks good. What is that 15" drivers?
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Nice speakers rajacat! :thumb:
I'm also interested in the Behringer iNuke for subwoofer duty, the dsp could come in handy but the power specs are overstated which is a red flag. I think they rate it at 3KW into 4 ohms x 2, this cannot be accomplished using a standard 120V, 20A circuit as 120 x 20 = 2400 watts, just a little shy of 6000 and we're not even taking into account inefficiencies, even if they are only a few %.
http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-NU6000-Ultra-Lightweight-High-Density-6000-Watt/dp/B005EHINFI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1414698607&sr=8-3&keywords=behringer+inuke+nu6000
Are those your AE 15" drivers? I had to give up on them, I can't wait months and months for them to come through when they promised me a 4 week lead time.
I'm going with these instead, I will be using a much lower xo point than you are, probably 150 Hz but not more than 350 Hz...
http://www.voltloudspeakers.co.uk/loudspeakers/rv3863-15/
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Looks good. What is that 15" drivers?
Acoustic Elegance TD15m.
http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=4
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Hmm... should I start a separate thread for my speakers? Don't want to get too off topic.
Dave, those Volt drivers look very interesting. Are they very pricey?
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Hmm... should I start a separate thread for my speakers? Don't want to get too off topic.
Dave, those Volt drivers look very interesting. Are they very pricey?
Yes, they are very expensive but are one of very few drivers that fit my requirements. I'm trying to design a full-range 2-way speaker with a F3 in the high 20 Hz range and past 20 kHz on the top end, it looks like I can do it with no crossover on the high end driver and the Volt woofers run active with a Crown, Behringer or similar D amp with built-in xo. I also just got in 20" diameter waveguides for the mid/high range driver, they need to be pretty big to maintain directivity low enough.
I think your speakers are worthy of their own thread for sure. :thumb:
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Nice speakers rajacat! :thumb:
I'm also interested in the Behringer iNuke for subwoofer duty, the dsp could come in handy but the power specs are overstated which is a red flag. I think they rate it at 3KW into 4 ohms x 2, this cannot be accomplished using a standard 120V, 20A circuit as 120 x 20 = 2400 watts, just a little shy of 6000 and we're not even taking into account inefficiencies, even if they are only a few %.
So you don't like the specs? :lol: That was beautiful
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Ok I know I sound like a Dick but contraire to what people might think I like all you guys. But I have to say in audio a lot of folk here appear to be their own worst enemy. They run to the next fad with hope and gleam that they've found the next hidden lil gem. Got some news. That ain't happening.
Lol, that's why it's called a hobby. That's what hobbyists do. There are people who do the same thing over postage stamps.
Postage stamps, bro.
(http://www.mytortoisemind.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Stamps.jpg)
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According to the Amazon reviews, the fan is very noisy on the INuke.
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werd, Behringer put out power specs that are impossible to achieve on a std 120V circuit, this has no relation to your comments whatsoever....
The attraction to the Behringer is dsp to EQ the low end, some higher end Crown amps have this ability too but they cost more. Probably for a good reason... like because they sound so good... :P
Noisy fan is definitely not good. The one in my laptop is loud enough that it can't be on and in the same room as my system during any serious listening. It's annoying.
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According to the Amazon reviews, the fan is very noisy on the INuke.
It is; it's horrendous. I replaced the one on my son's bass (guitar) amp driving Duke LeJeune's Thunderchild speaker with the quietest one I could find, but it's still more than you would tolerate in the living room as part of a home stereo set up - and it's on all the time.
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Hmm... should I start a separate thread for my speakers? Don't want to get too off topic.
Dave, those Volt drivers look very interesting. Are they very pricey?
If I owned speakers like those, (with the high efficiency), I would stick with tubes. None of the sand amps (regardless of topology) can match the linearity of a well made and designed valve amp. (And yes, I'm biased) :green:
Now, regarding these Crown amps, would like to more. Every Class D amp I've owned or heard/auditioned had issues with sounding 2D, lacked a bit of bass, and sounded a bit off in the presence region. OTOH, the high power and clarity is very welcome with a lot of music. The best (to me) was the Yamaha MX-D1, followed by the Ncore a bit lower. After those, there was a drop off in overall enjoyment.
I'm sure there are some newer Class D offerings out there that are competitive.
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werd, Behringer put out power specs that are impossible to achieve on a std 120V circuit, this has no relation to your comments whatsoever....
The attraction to the Behringer is dsp to EQ the low end, some higher end Crown amps have this ability too but they cost more. Probably for a good reason... like because they sound so good... :P
Noisy fan is definitely not good. The one in my laptop is loud enough that it can't be on and in the same room as my system during any serious listening. It's annoying.
Dude you don't have to convince me. I'm with ya I thought exact same thing
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If I owned speakers like those, (with the high efficiency), I would stick with tubes. None of the sand amps (regardless of topology) can match the linearity of a well made and designed valve amp. (And yes, I'm biased) :green:
Now, regarding these Crown amps, would like to more. Every Class D amp I've owned or heard/auditioned had issues with sounding 2D, lacked a bit of bass, and sounded a bit off in the presence region. OTOH, the high power and clarity is very welcome with a lot of music. The best (to me) was the Yamaha MX-D1, followed by the Ncore a bit lower. After those, there was a drop off in overall enjoyment.
I'm sure there are some newer Class D offerings out there that are competitive.
The Chapter Class D, my integrated and especially the powers amp are very Holographic.
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It is; it's horrendous. I replaced the one on my son's bass (guitar) amp driving Duke LeJeune's Thunderchild speaker with the quietest one I could find, but it's still more than you would tolerate in the living room as part of a home stereo set up - and it's on all the time.
What did you replace it with?
You can get some really quiet fans, PC overclockers are into figuring out how to cool things quietly.
If you can live with lower airflow, you can also undervolt the fan, 12V fans can get REALLY quiet running on 5-7 volts.
Randy
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The Chapter Class D, my integrated and especially the powers amp are very Holographic.
I have not heard any sand amps yet that can match a well made and designed tube setup. The well made and designed aspect limits the choices, to be sure. Having said that, there are always new things to learn and toys to listen to.
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I have not heard any sand amps yet that can match a well made and designed tube setup. The well made and designed aspect limits the choices, to be sure. Having said that, there are always new things to learn and toys to listen to.
It's because most have useless power supplies. They typically are undernourished and can't deal with multiple impedance loads simultaltaneous. That will collapse the soundstage in SS. Well so long as you got your room working for ya. I am not trying to rival excellent tubes in holographics. But they are pretty good.
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I have not heard any sand amps yet that can match a well made and designed tube setup. The well made and designed aspect limits the choices, to be sure. Having said that, there are always new things to learn and toys to listen to.
Have you heard the Devaliet 250 or 400?
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Nope. That's why I said that there are always new toys out there to check out.
A audiophiles view of the world is always subject to change. :D Having said that, physics is physics after all.
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Delete lost half the message somehow
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The Pioneer SX-1250 has that sound you describe. Not neutral, but enjoyable, with LOTS of grunt.
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You beat me to it. They have this really synthetic Hi-Fi sound to it. Both my Chapter and The Devaliet. It's not neutral but definite Hi Fi. Like Japanese Receiver Hi-Fi. It works only because all the distortion and noise have been engineered out of it. I did hear the Devaliet with a pair of Focals and Clear Audio TT that didn't work for me.
I like Micromega too.
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Now, regarding these Crown amps, would like to more. Every Class D amp I've owned or heard/auditioned had issues with sounding 2D, lacked a bit of bass, and sounded a bit off in the presence region. OTOH, the high power and clarity is very welcome with a lot of music.
No 2D on my Zellatons. I have a very wide soundstage and lots of depth. The Zellatons totally disappear.
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It is nice to have the option to lower it or crank it up. 9 0'clock setting gives me about 20-25 WPC on my 85db Zellatons.. 12 o'clock and it is more like 75-100 WPC. I will never use the 375 WPC.
So, you are only using a fraction of the power. How does the Crown compare to the Job 225? More importantly, is it STILL as good with the gain wide open? (I suspect not.) The reason I'm asking is that some of us have speakers that are 85 db/w, and while the extra power is always welcome, it may lose some of it's better qualities with the higher gain setting.
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No 2D on my Zellatons. I have a very wide soundstage and lots of depth. The Zellatons totally disappear.
Tom, where are you setting the gain with your Zellatons?
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So, you are only using a fraction of the power. How does the Crown compare to the Job 225? More importantly, is it STILL as good with the gain wide open? (I suspect not.) The reason I'm asking is that some of us have speakers that are 85 db/w, and while the extra power is always welcome, it may lose some of it's better qualities with the higher gain setting.
I cranked it up to 1 o'clock tonight, much louder than I normally listen. No hardness or AC harshness at all. The SQ surprised me again, I have about 200 hours on it. I played quite a few of my bad recordings and they were much, much better sounding, more open with a bigger soundstage and no harshness. So the amp must be breaking in even more. My Zellatons are 85db so no worries on the volume, Keith.
Crown is just more quiet, detailed and clearer than the Job. I still might keep the Job, not sure.
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I cranked it up to 1 o'clock tonight, much louder than I normally listen. No hardness or AC harshness at all. The SQ surprised me again, I have about 200 hours on it. I played quite a few of my bad recordings and they were much, much better sounding, more open with a bigger soundstage and no harshness. So the amp must be breaking in even more. My Zellatons are 85db so no worries on the volume, Keith.
Crown is just more quiet, detailed and clearer than the Job. I still might keep the Job, not sure.
Thanks, Tom. I wonder how it would compare to my AW2-120. The Electrocompaniet is the best SS amp I have experienced.
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Tom, you are leaving it on 24/7 correct?
Scotty
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I decided to do some research on these Crown amps. I thought maybe they were fresh and new but they won a lot of rewards at the CES show Jan. 10. The amps were shipped April of that year, here is the notice.
http://harmanprogroup.blogspot.com/2010/04/crown-begins-shipping-highly.html
In the article, Harmon states that they included a power conditioner in the amps so you do not have to use a separate line conditioner. That must be the reason I am enjoying this amp at such a loud volume and no hardness. All other class D amps I have had here sounded very harsh.
Harmon has very deep pockets. Most of you probably know, but here is a list of their companies that they own beside Levinson.
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/Solutions/Harmanbrands/Pages/MarkLevinson.aspx
Actually, Dave and I are almost 5 years late on finding what this amp sounds like. :duh:
Since these amps has been out for almost 5 years, the coming CES show in Jan. just might see Harmon introducing a new lineup of the amps. So keep a close watch.
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Tom, you are leaving it on 24/7 correct?
Scotty
Yes, but my Sony shut off today and it took that 30 minutes to warm back up.
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I decided to do some research on these Crown amps. I thought maybe they were fresh and new but they won a lot of rewards at the CES show Jan. 10. The amps were shipped April of that year, here is the notice.
http://harmanprogroup.blogspot.com/2010/04/crown-begins-shipping-highly.html
In the article, Harmon states that they included a power conditioner in the amps so you do not have to use a separate line conditioner. That must be the reason I am enjoying this amp at such a loud volume and no hardness. All other class D amps I have had here sounded very harsh.
Harmon has very deep pockets. Most of you probably know, but here is a list of their companies that they own beside Levinson.
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/Solutions/Harmanbrands/Pages/MarkLevinson.aspx
Actually, Dave and I are almost 5 years late on finding what this amp sounds like. :duh:
Since these amps has been out for almost 5 years, the coming CES show in Jan. just might see Harmon introducing a new lineup of the amps. So keep a close watch.
All SMPS include a "built in power conditioner", especially the high power ones used in most class D amplifiers. The power filtration has to be included to keep the SMPS from putting huge amounts of noise back onto the AC line. Without this power filtration, the amplifiers would not pass FCC (in the US) and CE (which is even stricter, in the EU) regulations. I highly doubt that the power filtration included in the Crown amplifiers is anything special in comparison to other SMPS equipped class D options. Certainly nothing in the pictures looks very special in comparison to Hypex SMPS designs, or the ICEpower modules I am familiar with.
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All SMPS include a "built in power conditioner", especially the high power ones used in most class D amplifiers. The power filtration has to be included to keep the SMPS from putting huge amounts of noise back onto the AC line. Without this power filtration, the amplifiers would not pass FCC (in the US) and CE (which is even stricter, in the EU) regulations. I highly doubt that the power filtration included in the Crown amplifiers is anything special in comparison to other SMPS equipped class D options. Certainly nothing in the pictures looks very special in comparison to Hypex SMPS designs, or the ICEpower modules I am familiar with.
Please stop trying to use logic in this conversation! :wink:I admittedly have not heard these amps but look forward to auditioning them in the future. In my experience, cheap Class D amps deliver lots of watts but lack refinement and sound very 2D as others have pointed out. All class D amps require conditioning and, as you stated, they all have it built in. The pro Crown looks to be suited for a supwoofer application and I'm excited about the prospect of replacing my current pro amp (Crown K1) and Behringer DCX with the Crown and using the internal Xover. I'm less hopeful of replacing my NCore amps with the Crown if it's anything like the other pro, Class D amps I have heard in the past. Time will tell...
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Please stop trying to use logic in this conversation! :wink:I admittedly have not heard these amps but look forward to auditioning them in the future. In my experience, cheap Class D amps deliver lots of watts but lack refinement and sound very 2D as others have pointed out. All class D amps require conditioning and, as you stated, they all have it built in. The pro Crown looks to be suited for a supwoofer application and I'm excited about the prospect of replacing my current pro amp (Crown K1) and Behringer DCX with the Crown and using the internal Xover. I'm less hopeful of replacing my NCore amps with the Crown if it's anything like the other pro, Class D amps I have heard in the past. Time will tell...
I was also looking at using either the Crown or Behringer for a sub amp. I "settled" on a mini dsp and an older crown, the previous generation that does not have dsp built in. This combination was around the same price, but has a lot more flexibility. The dsp's in the crown and behringer are cool for an amp, but they won't do everything a mini dsp can do.
I recommend looking at the user manual to make sure they will provide the functionality you want.
As an aside, looking forward to running REW and doing some low frequency tweaking with the minidsp.
Randy
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And try not to talk about class D distortion
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Please stop trying to use logic in this conversation! :wink:I admittedly have not heard these amps but look forward to auditioning them in the future. In my experience, cheap Class D amps deliver lots of watts but lack refinement and sound very 2D as others have pointed out. All class D amps require conditioning and, as you stated, they all have it built in. The pro Crown looks to be suited for a supwoofer application and I'm excited about the prospect of replacing my current pro amp (Crown K1) and Behringer DCX with the Crown and using the internal Xover. I'm less hopeful of replacing my NCore amps with the Crown if it's anything like the other pro, Class D amps I have heard in the past. Time will tell...
jackman, do you find the highs to be correct and not missing anything and the stage to be 3d with the NCores in your experience?
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jackman, do you find the highs to be correct and not missing anything and the stage to be 3d with the NCores in your experience?
Yes, the highs on the nCore are the best I've heard, compared to any amp I've owned or tested on my system. They have excellent detail, very 3D imaging and the mids are as good as I've heard. I have separate power on my woofers so I can't comment on how the nCore does with woofers, although there are enough positive reviews on-line.
I could not live with a 2D amp. The nCore has a deep, wide soundstage and my system has pinpoint imaging. I look forward to hearing the Crown amps. They are inexpensive and have cool features. If they sound as good as my current amp, I'll keep them. If they sound good, period, even if it's not as good as my current amp, I'll keep them for a second system. Maybe pair them up with some Murphy/Pioneer BS22's.
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How are the Crown XLS users getting along. Anything new to report?
Can I use spade connectors? Or am I going to have to get spade to banana adapters.
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Everything Jackman said, yes. I will add since he hasn't used them on his woofers, and I have used them full range on everything, they have exquisite, and I mean, exquisite bass.
They deserve to be in any conversation involving end game amplifiers. Not bad for DIY kits.
As he says he could not live with a 2D amp, me neither, if I felt my amps were lacking, I would have moved on long ago. They are the real deal.
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My 2000 amp is shipping back to the Ebay seller, but I have a 1500 coming in on Wednesday I bought it for $200 on Craigslist. There is a 1500 in Des Moines for $150 but I could not get any response. If I get one this cheap, I will buy it and set it out on an AC tour here. There are also two 1500's in Temple Texas for $200 each, but he is hesitant to ship them, no boxes.
Since the 70's, I have never owned a 2D sounding amp. I say the Crown is a forward amp, but if you have a recording that has info coming from far behind the speakers, that is where the Crown will put it. I will see if the 1500 sounds any better than the 2000.
And yes, banana plugs or bare wire works the best Mr. Bill.
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I picked up a used Crown xls 1500 just for the hell of it after reading this thread and I got to say it is very good! I've heard ICE,Pascal class d amps and also the Job 225 class A/B and this Crown amp is just as good if not better!
I got it used from B&H for $260 but it looks brand new. All the descriptions everybody has been giving this amp is spot on, very 3d with punchy bass. I cranked it up yesterday and was impressed how it handled loud volumes with all types of music. No harshness or fatigue at all.
It seems to have a softer presentation than the Job but more detailed. At first I wasn't sure what I was hearing and wondered what the fuss was all about but after playing for about 5 days it's very detailed and smooth with a huge soundstage.
I'm so impressed I ordered another one to try as mono's
For the money it's hard to pass up!
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I picked up a used Crown xls 1500 just for the hell of it after reading this thread and I got to say it is very good! I've heard ICE,Pascal class d amps and also the Job 225 class A/B and this Crown amp is just as good if not better!
I got it used from B&H for $260 but it looks brand new. All the descriptions everybody has been giving this amp is spot on, very 3d with punchy bass. I cranked it up yesterday and was impressed how it handled loud volumes with all types of music. No harshness or fatigue at all.
It seems to have a softer presentation than the Job but more detailed. At first I wasn't sure what I was hearing and wondered what the fuss was all about but after playing for about 5 days it's very detailed and smooth with a huge soundstage.
Hi Tomy,
Is your system in your profile up to date? Still using the DSPeaker, and is that functioning as your preamp? How well did the Crown pair with it?
And can you say more about the Crown presentation being a bit softer than the Job?
Thanks for your impressions.
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Thanks gang,
Are the xls1500, 2000, and 2500 all the same or are you finding one to be better - power notwithstanding?
I need to order one!
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Hi Tomy,
Is your system in your profile up to date? Still using the DSPeaker, and is that functioning as your preamp? How well did the Crown pair with it?
And can you say more about the Crown presentation being a bit softer than the Job?
Thanks for your impressions.
Yes, still using the Dspeaker and it works great. I have played around with the gain on the Crown a little bit and it seems to sound it's best set pretty high, I have it about 3 notches below full throttle. The Songtowers are roughly 87db sensitive so maybe thats why it sounds better cranked up a little more than what others are doing , not sure.
When the Job was in the mix I thought it gives a great detailed presentation too but maybe in a more aggressive way. I think its gain is set at 35db.
Maybe softer is not the right word but is what came to mind when I was thinking about the differences. Smoother may be more accurate.
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Thanks gang,
Are the xls1500, 2000, and 2500 all the same or are you finding one to be better - power notwithstanding?
I need to order one!
Hopefully OzarkTom can answer that question once he gets his 1500. A big question for me since I have some power-hungry speakers on the way...
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Hi Tomy,
Is your system in your profile up to date? Still using the DSPeaker, and is that functioning as your preamp? How well did the Crown pair with it?
And can you say more about the Crown presentation being a bit softer than the Job?
Thanks for your impressions.
Sorry if I didn't answer but yes I'm using the Dspeaker as my dac and preamp.
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My Crown XLS 1500 is still doing great! I'll probably pick up a 2nd one at some point as well....
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My Crown XLS 1500 is still doing great! I'll probably pick up a 2nd one at some point as well....
Tho it should be noted that Dave has very easy to drive speakers.
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True, but they are also not very forgiving speakers, any flaws in the system are very obvious with the Omega Super 3 XRS and the Crown doesn't do anything I can't stand... I'd still give the edge to my SET amp for most music at moderate to low volumes but the difference is really minor and I'd be happy with the Crown if it was the only amp I had.
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I picked up a used Crown xls 1500 just for the hell of it after reading this thread and I got to say it is very good! I've heard ICE,Pascal class d amps and also the Job 225 class A/B and this Crown amp is just as good if not better!
How does it compare to the Pascal based amp, I think I know which one you have?
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I picked up a used Crown xls 1500 just for the hell of it after reading this thread and I got to say it is very good! I've heard ICE,Pascal class d amps and also the Job 225 class A/B and this Crown amp is just as good if not better!
How does it compare to the Pascal based amp, I think I know which one you have?
[/quite
I was going to put it back in to compare but by memory I would say the pascal is more lively in its presentation and just as detailed. The crown in my system and my ears is more subtle in its approach but still very detailed and fun to listen to.
I think if the crown was packaged nicer with better connectors it would appeal to a lot more people. Sometimes it's hard to get out of your head that it's just a pro amp but that's why you got to hear it to appreciate it.
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Thanks gang,
Are the xls1500, 2000, and 2500 all the same or are you finding one to be better - power notwithstanding?
I need to order one!
I did some research on the Crown amps last week. It was noted on one site that the actual technology and noise floor starting with the XLS 2000 series (on up) is different than the 1000 and 1500 models. I do NOT know this for a fact. I also read that people who work at Crown were actually buying the 2000 or 2500. Again, I'm not stating confirmed facts, but maybe someone can find similar info. to corroborate these statements.
Here's one extraction from the net. This may have come from an Amazon review.
These amps never get more than a few degrees above ambient temperature either. Amazing. Crown claims they are 98% efficient and that's how. How come amps of this magnitude are so cheap? One reason is they have lost about 500 parts in making these compared to Class AB. How easy is it to configure this amp? Very, all settings are made by the buttons on the front below the LCD screen. How clear are the directions in the manual? Very, only a few pages for the whole manual. Go to Crown usa and check it out. Several Crown employees use these in Home Theater applications and/or home audio applications. Which model do they ALL use? This one. They said the two lower models are more stripped down and this one the 2000 or the 2500 should be chosen. How is their tech support? Excellent! I got in under a minute each time. These are built for pro use under often very demanding conditions and take a "lickin' and keep on tickin!" I read the transferable warranty to cover almost everything unless you drop it in a lake or throw it off a roof and is transferable and lasts 3 years under PRO use.
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The 1000 doesn't have as high of SNR, the rest have 105db.
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My 1500 will be here today. I also picked up a 2500 at a steal and hopefully it will be here on Friday. It will be interesting to see if there is any difference in these three amps.
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My 1500 will be here today. I also picked up a 2500 at a steal and hopefully it will be here on Friday. It will be interesting to see if there is any difference in these three amps.
Keep us posted on the difference Tom!
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I'm looking forward to hearing one of these on my system. Roscoe, hurry up and get one... :P
Just kidding, I may pick one up but my audio time is a little short these days. One thing I can say about my existing Crown amp (K1), it's an absolute tank in terms of construction and durability. It was shipped to me by an idiot (not an AC person, this guy was from Brooklyn) in a thin cardboard box with absolutely no padding or protection of any kind. He shipped it UPS ground and it arrived with half the box crushed, the thin single layer of tape completely off the top and the whole thing sitting on it's side on the concrete front porch of my house.
I was mortified and almost certain the amp was damaged and was pleasantly surprised that, aside from a little scratch on the front that was quickly rectified with a black Sharpie, the amp performed perfectly and has been in my system, powering my subs, ever since. The pots got a bit scratchy, but the K1 design makes them very easy to clean. It is not suitable for main amplifier duties (monitors) but I love this amp for subs.
If the new one (with built in xover) works as well, I'll keep it and ditch my current Crown. I'll also be happy to compare it to the nCore and a couple other amps I've got laying around. No bias on my part, I'll gladly sell my current amps if the new Crown sounds as good. Will start looking for one this weekend on ebay or craigslist.
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Interesting to see John Meyer of Newform Research is also aware of these Crown amps. See the XLS 2000 in the fourth picture down in this 6 moons item:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/newform/1.html
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Interesting to see John Meyer of Newform Research is also aware of these Crown amps. See the XLS 2000 in the fourth picture down in this 6 moons item:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/newform/1.html
They have a crossover. I think they've been getting used for subwoofers for a bit.
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They have a crossover. I think they've been getting used for subwoofers for a bit.
If you mean the speakers have a crossover–yes I can see it on the floor! I presumed the amp was driving the speakers full range, since it was apparently the only amp in the picture (I don't recognize that black piece of equipment to the right of the Crown - is that a crossover?). I guess I don't understand your post!
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I assume the black thing is the full range receiver, and the crown is for the sub in the middle.
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After a lot comparisons tonight with all types of music, I would call it a dead heat between the 1500 and 2000 amps. That makes the 1500 the best deal since those prices used are around 200 bucks. Get two and run them in mono, if you need more power, 1050 watts into 8 ohms.
jackman, that one in Des Moines Ia. is still for sale for $150, but you would have to drive over and pick it up, he won't ship.
I then tried Chris's (rodge827) trick that he learned trough the grapevine, and what an improvement. Now I have these sitting under every component in the house but the speakers. These rings even fits perfectly under those heavy Sony Z1's. The sound is more warmer, natural sounding, with even more depth. :o
My wife subscribes to Amazon Prime, this improvement cost me 7 bucks for 20 of them. That should be enough for any system.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007HRC5AW/ref=pe_385040_121528360_TE_dp_1
Thanks Chris for this tidbit. :thumb: When I get more moongel pads in this weekend, I will try the combination together.
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Lol, I have my Crown sitting on cedar blocks with moongel pads in between right now.
Those cedar rings look good though, will use them in my closet too. :thumb:
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I bet those rings with some herbies discs on the underside would be top notch.
Cedar is a natural replacement for moth balls. You can buy cedar balls...
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I had 4 moongels under each of my 30 lb (14 kg) monitor speakers (K+H 0300s) for over a year, but no more than two years. When I went to move the speakers off the stands to re-locate them, the moongels' inner liquid filling had oozed through the surface and adhered them to both the stand top plate and the bottom of the speaker which, fortunately, was finished in a tough synthetic. I scraped them off and threw them away. No damage was done, but it is back to looking for alternatives.
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...Get two and run them in mono, if you need more power, 1050 watts into 8 ohms. ..
So is there any sonic penalty from driving Class D amps in mono, as is usually the case with Class A/B?
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No damage was done, but it is back to looking for alternatives.
I'm using Herbie's Big Fat Dots under my monitors with very good results. 8)
http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108209)
Chris
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Here you go Tom,
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108094)
Best smelling/sounding iTube evah' :green:
Chris
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Here you go Tom,
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108094)
Best smelling/sounding iTube evah' :green:
Chris's
Looks great, I will try that tonight. So what improvement are you hearing, Chris?
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Looks great, I will try that tonight. So what improvement are you hearing, Chris?
Putting them on the top gave me more details like a finger squeak on guitar, mike bumps with live music, hall echo, the sound stage got deeper, background sounds, instrument separation, all the little sounds that create a more life like performance in studio and live recordings. (and the sentence runs on and on and on...)
Chris
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Putting them on the top gave me more details like a finger squeak on guitar, mike bumps with live music, hall echo, the sound stage got deeper, background sounds, instrument separation, all the little sounds that create a more life like performance in studio and live recordings. (and the sentence runs on and on and on...)
Chris
Chris or Tom,
I'm not trying to be a turd but how can adding cedar rings on top of the ifi improve its sound?
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Chris or Tom,
I'm not trying to be a turd but how can adding cedar rings on top of the ifi improve its sound?
I'd love to see someone prove this in blind testing...
This is why I am starting to hate this hobby. A few years ago, a guy from the Chicago Audio Society or Club came to my house and explained how his group tested bags of sand and buckshot on top of their CDP's to see what sounded better. They settled on a 50/50 mix of sand and lead buckshot. I wanted to throw him out immediately, but I'm too nice. :duh:
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I'm using Herbie's Big Fat Dots under my monitors with very good results. 8)
http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108209)
Chris
Those look pretty cool, I may pick some up. I use those little half moon balls (half balls :o) of sorbothane between my monitors and subwoofer cabinets. I tried lots of other things (carbon fiber spikes, sheets of sorbothane (sp?), etc.) and these actually seem to work best. I place a glass of water on top of the monitors and play bass heavy music. The sorbothane half moons (flat side down) isolate the monitors best and I have no water movement. The solid sheets and little squares of the same material have noticeable water movement (less isolation). Not sure if it sounds any better but they are cheap and easy to get (ebay or amazon). I use 4 per speaker and they were around $6 each.
I like Herbie and will give his product a shot. Thanks!
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What is happening they're mass loading the top of the cdp. If you stood there and pressed down on it it would be the same. It's dampening the resonance of the chassis. Same on the bottom to a certain extent. You can mass load the bottom too Usually if you mass load the bottom it helps to remove the feet.
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I'd love to see someone prove this in blind testing...
This is why I am starting to hate this hobby. A few years ago, a guy from the Chicago Audio Society or Club came to my house and explained how his group tested bags of sand and buckshot on top of their CDP's to see what sounded better. They settled on a 50/50 mix of sand and lead buckshot. I wanted to throw him out immediately, but I'm too nice. :duh:
Starting? :roll:
Jack, I got this tweak form Darren who distributes the iFi gear. He said as crazy as it seems, put a couple on top and you will notice a difference. He also said to put pennies between the bottom discs for more of an effect. Sounded good without the pennies, but I will try some for comparison and report back. :D
How can you see it if it's a blind test? : :scratch:
Chris
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After a lot comparisons tonight with all types of music, I would call it a dead heat between the 1500 and 2000 amps. That makes the 1500 the best deal since those prices used are around 200 bucks. Get two and run them in mono, if you need more power, 1050 watts into 8 ohms.
Excellent. I'd like to build some 3-ways as my next speaker project and the TPAs won't have enough juice I'm sure not to mention it's nice when there's enough power for the amp to drive woofers with real authority.
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The cedar rings first made a difference under the Crown amp. The increase in depth was the first thing I noticed, probably because the sound got clearer. Then I played some of my bad recordings and they were more listenable than without the rings.
Darren is one of those that is as honest as the day is long. He also does not believe in the very expensive power conditioners that is on the market. For 20 rings at 7 bucks, this tweek is worth trying. If they don't work for your system, use them in your closet.
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I don't understand the complications in understanding.
Class D audio signal is formed from an oscillating signal. Within a circuit/chip design one must be careful for resonances occurring that will alter sound. The electrical resonance is physical, as much as it is a separate wave form of electricity. No one in the business denies that resonances are a concern, and likely a majority have compensated somewhere in their circuit for them. Don't forget that everything in equipment is also subject to induction. There's a lot of fields extending past their components/tracings, and I doubt it's hard to imagine what vibrations can do to them.
You can argue whether it's worth your time, but to say it's magic snake oil is silly.
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Changing the mechanical damping of any part of the system has an effect, sometimes quite large.
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I don't understand the complications in understanding.
Class D audio signal is formed from an oscillating signal. Within a circuit/chip design one must be careful for resonances occurring that will alter sound. The electrical resonance is physical, as much as it is a separate wave form of electricity. No one in the business denies that resonances are a concern, and likely a majority have compensated somewhere in their circuit for them. Don't forget that everything in equipment is also subject to induction. There's a lot of fields extending past their components/tracings, and I doubt it's hard to imagine what vibrations can do to them.
You can argue whether it's worth your time, but to say it's magic snake oil is silly.
Nice to read a rational explanation for the whole resonance thing.
You are not Michael Green with a different username, are you? 8)
I kid.
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The cedar rings first made a difference under the Crown amp. The increase in depth was the first thing I noticed, probably because the sound got clearer. Then I played some of my bad recordings and they were more listenable than without the rings.
Darren is one of those that is as honest as the day is long. He also does not believe in the very expensive power conditioners that is on the market. For 20 rings at 7 bucks, this tweek is worth trying. If they don't work for your system, use them in your closet.
The trick being to hear whether a signal is effected by resonating chassis and/or pub board. It's all in the source. But if you are power amp is pushing .5 distortion in class D this is pretty much going to put a halt in anything you do to the source. Your amp is going to play boss and that will be end of any tweaks you do to the source. Won't mean anything because the amp's resolution is will shut it down..... Sorry
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Cedar rings... :scratch:
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The trick being to hear whether a signal is effected by resonating chassis and/or pub board. It's all in the source. But if you are power amp is pushing .5 distortion in class D this is pretty much going to put a halt in anything you do to the source. Your amp is going to play boss and that will be end of any tweaks you do to the source. Won't mean anything because the amp's resolution is will shut it down..... Sorry
Ah yes, I remember when I too fell for the low distortion hype back in the very early 70's My amp was the best because it had the lowest distortion of them all. No one could tell me anything different. I didn't have to listen to any other amps. I passed over all of those high distortion tube products because I knew better.
Today, all of those high distortion tube products are selling 10x on Ebay on what they sold back then. The amps I bought are all sitting in the land fills, maybe a few at the garage sales for 5 bucks. Marantz 8B and Marantz 7C is selling in the $5-6K plus figures . One 7C is now listed for 8k. Even the Dynaco ST70, which sounded better than any amp I owned in the 70's, is fetching the 10x price. Would somebody here kick me in the rear? :duh: Where is the Back to the Future DeLorean time machine?
In 1979 I walked in an Audio Salon in New Orleans and heard a comparison between a McIntosh C22 preamp and a new ultra-low distortion Kenwood preamp. The C22 smoked the Kenwood, not even close. And the audio dealer was trying to convince the C22 owner that the Pioneer was better. That audio dealer was a jerk. The other customer was very happy when I agreed with him, C22 was better. From that day on I never looked at the specs, I only listened with my ears. :D
Werd, your speakers puts out at least 10-20% distortion, so why are you complaining about a .5 figure that Crown quotes on these Drivecores?
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Well nothing like a good shoot out , you and werd should get together and have the Crown go head to head with his Bryston ....
:lol:
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Well nothing like a good shoot out , you and werd should get together and have the Crown go head to head with his Bryston ....
:lol:
I owned both the Bryston 3B-ST and the Crown XLS 2500 at the same time. Speakers were Klipsch Forte II. I kept the Crown. Sonically both were good but the Crown seemed a bit softer in the highs, something you might notice after listening to Klipsch with Bryston. The Crown also uses much less power at idle, important because it's on 24/7. My favorite amp with the Klipschs was a 5 wpc Class A tube amp which I still own even though the Klipsch have been sold. But the differences were like discussing flavours of a beer or wine. Some may prefer one while others like something else, depending on what else is going with it...like food, women, music, cars, movies...there is enough variety for all tastes. Someone with speakers that needed a bit of sparkle might have preferred the Bryston. Before the Crown, I used the Bryston with several other speakers so I have a pretty good handle on it's sound. Of course, the latest version of the Bryston, the 3BSST², is almost 10x the price of the Crown, if you want to compare apples with apples. The Yamaha P5000S and the P7000S (Class H) I owned at the same time sounded more like the Bryston, but were also a bit too sharp with the Klipschs. I also preferred the Crown over the P5000S on the Maggies, after having sold the Bryston. It is all about synergy and preferences, not specifications. I'm glad I didn't choose my wife based on her specifications!
...
...Previously used the amp with Magnepan 1.7s and before that Klipsch Forte II. After having bought it and used it, sold some of my other amps such as Bryston 3B-ST, Yamaha P5000s and Audio Refinement Multi-2. I like something that runs cool that I can keep on 24/7 and I found it a good match with my other speakers, past/present/future.
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Another forum had an audiophile say the Devialet was better than his Crown 2500, but it was 10x the price. At my $200 find, the Devialet is 32x the price. I wonder if he ever tried the $7 cedar rings with his Crown?
And yes, I sold Bryston back in the 80's, early 90's.
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I have almost forgotten, Dave said there are no fuses in the Crown, only a circuit breaker. So no need to worry about spending 100 bucks on a Hifi Tuning fuse. :D
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Loving this thread!
I have another crown xls 1500 coming today to run as a mono pair, and cedar rings coming tomorrow. For $7 I figured why not, if anything it'll smell nice!
I have a used crown xls 1500 I purchased from B&H that I was going to keep as a backup but I'm willing to ship it to anyone who wants to try it out in their system and be willing to give honest feedback here on this thread. Remember it only takes banana or bare connections unless you have adapters.
Jackman, if you haven't bought one yet I can send it to you. I would love your opinion on how it compares to your Ncore.
I'm not trying to start a tour but if it turns into one, that's cool!
-Tom
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Loving this thread!
I have another crown xls 1500 coming today to run as a mono pair, and cedar rings coming tomorrow. For $7 I figured why not, if anything it'll smell nice!
-Tom
Some here wants to know how they sound as monos, Tom, if you get a chance to listen before you ship that one amp out. Actually me too. :D
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I have a used crown xls 1500 I purchased from B&H that I was going to keep as a backup but I'm willing to ship it to anyone who wants to try it out in their system and be willing to give honest feedback here on this thread.
-Tom
Tom,
So cool of you 8)
If you do this, please count me in, I'd love to check out a 1500 at Casa De Rodge :D
Chris
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Some here wants to know how they sound as monos, Tom, if you get a chance to listen before you ship that one amp out. Actually me too. :D
When the 1500 that arrives today I'll have three in house. Two new that'll run as monos and a used one I originally bought will go out to somebody if they're interested in hearing one.
I'll pay shipping going out with the understanding whoever receives it will pay shipping back to me or to whoever else wants to get it. :D
I took off the cover on the used one and disconnected the fan and noticed it does get a little warm. So the fan does kick in when driving my system but it's very quiet. Also looked for a fuse but couldn't find one.
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My favorite amp with the Klipschs was a 5 wpc Class A tube amp
EL84?
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A tour would be great, i missed the Ncore tour and could never find anyone who had one to listen to , my last class-D foray , 4-5 yrs ago with Rotels and Bel canto left me cold, interesting to hear how these compare to the ncore...,
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Well nothing like a good shoot out , you and werd should get together and have the Crown go head to head with his Bryston ....
:lol:
Now that would be entertaining.
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When the 1500 that arrives today I'll have three in house. Two new that'll run as monos and a used one I originally bought will go out to somebody if they're interested in hearing one.
I'll pay shipping going out with the understanding whoever receives it will pay shipping back to me or to whoever else wants to get it. :D
I took off the cover on the used one and disconnected the fan and noticed it does get a little warm. So the fan does kick in when driving my system but it's very quiet. Also looked for a fuse but couldn't find one.
It's got a circuit breaker. Send it to me if you don't mind sending one into Canada.
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Ah yes, I remember when I too fell for the low distortion hype back in the very early 70's My amp was the best because it had the lowest distortion of them all. No one could tell me anything different. I didn't have to listen to any other amps. I passed over all of those high distortion tube products because I knew better.
Today, all of those high distortion tube products are selling 10x on Ebay on what they sold back then. The amps I bought are all sitting in the land fills, maybe a few at the garage sales for 5 bucks. Marantz 8B and Marantz 7C is selling in the $5-6K plus figures . One 7C is now listed for 8k. Even the Dynaco ST70, which sounded better than any amp I owned in the 70's, is fetching the 10x price. Would somebody here kick me in the rear? :duh: Where is the Back to the Future DeLorean time machine?
In 1979 I walked in an Audio Salon in New Orleans and heard a comparison between a McIntosh C22 preamp and a new ultra-low distortion Kenwood preamp. The C22 smoked the Kenwood, not even close. And the audio dealer was trying to convince the C22 owner that the Pioneer was better. That audio dealer was a jerk. The other customer was very happy when I agreed with him, C22 was better. From that day on I never looked at the specs, I only listened with my ears. :D
Werd, your speakers puts out at least 10-20% distortion, so why are you complaining about a .5 figure that Crown quotes on these Drivecores?
I am not going to look at distortion on a tube amp. But I will on Class D.
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EL84?
Yup. Dennis Had (founder of Cary Audio) Inspire amplifier.
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I am not going to look at distortion on a tube amp. But I will on Class D.
According to this Crown video, the distortion spec is .001 on these Crown drivecore amps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoGvOhGQX5M#t=33
And if you scroll down below the video, one person writes that he retired his Threshold Class A amp after buying a 1500.
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I have made arrangements to ship my 1500 off next week to get it Cryo'd. I should have the 2500 by Wednesday. If that improves it as much as it did the itube, that should be very interesting.
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I have made arrangements to ship my 1500 off next week to get it Cryo'd. I should have the 2500 by Wednesday. If that improves it as much as it did the itube, that should be very interesting.
Now that's hard core! :wink:
Are you willing to share the estimated cost for getting the 1500 cryo'd? You can pm me if you'd rather.
Got the next 1500 delivered today and is in mono duty as I type. Still playing around with the gain setting but right now have it at about one o'clock on the dial. When running just one amp in stereo I had it about two or three notches from full throttle. If I put the gain that high in mono mode the noise floor is definitely higher but once music starts all you hear is superb dynamics!
Right out of the box these amps really sound great. It's hard not to want to crank it up with some good rock music! For around $650 you get over 1500 watts per channel into 4 ohm speakers and it really delivers.
I received some speaker cables from Zenwave Audio the other day and now that everything is hooked up as monoblocks it puts out a pretty impressive sound. Thanks Dave!
These probably won't be the last amps I own but I like having options.
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Cryo IMO is the most overrated of "upgrades". Especially amusing is cryoing a class d amp. IMO.
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According to this Crown video, the distortion spec is .001 on these Crown drivecore amps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoGvOhGQX5M#t=33
And if you scroll down below the video, one person writes that he retired his Threshold Class A amp after buying a 1500.
Any vid of the Chinese concentration camp they're made in... :lol:?
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Cryo IMO is the most overrated of "upgrades". Especially amusing is cryoing a class d amp. IMO.
I say "keep an open mind".
But pay attention. :)
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I'm extremely skeptical, especially, considering that the triple cryoed , coathanger stiff straight pure copper speaker wire I own sounds no better than $12 a spool Radio shack speaker wire, on Ncores, reputedly one of the most revealing amps of all time.
I don't expect, IMO, cryoing a class D amp will yield anything but except for those seeking and expecting a result. People chasing unicorns. I could understand maybe cryoing a, say, tube amp, and maybe hearing something different, but this is like freezing a computer and expecting higher megahertz.
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So, you've had one negative experience with cryo (but you bit in the first place) and now you are dismissing the entire process and all or most other tweaks as unicorn chasing?
Why did you try your speaker wire? In a unicorn chasing mood?
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Well, the guy I am sending it too has Cryo'd thousands of items over the last 15 years, and not once, has he ever had a failure. The item has always sounded better. I only have 200 bucks in the amp, so why not? I can always get rid of it on EBay if the Cryo fails.
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I'm extremely skeptical, especially, considering that the triple cryoed , coathanger stiff straight pure copper speaker wire I own sounds no better than $12 a spool Radio shack speaker wire, on Ncores, reputedly one of the most revealing amps of all time.
That explains it. No sensible audiophile would triple cryo. If you're going to cryo at all you do it once. Get in, cryo, get the hell out. Everyone knows that.
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That explains it. No sensible audiophile would triple cryo. If you're going to cryo at all you do it once. Get in, cryo, get the hell out. Everyone knows that.
:lol:
That was good!
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So, you've had one negative experience with cryo (but you bit in the first place) and now you are dismissing the entire process and all or most other tweaks as unicorn chasing?
Why did you try your speaker wire? In a unicorn chasing mood?
No, I was a dumb noob reading a thread like this one.
A sucker is born every minute, lucky I learned my lesson once. Carry on with the "cryo'd (class d lol!) Amp is more musical neutral, better PRAT" lmao.
And, all due respect, I wouldn't trust Ozark Tom's opinion on anything. He sells the stuff!
Him and his brown power except on flavor of the week. Then it works good.
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No, I was a dumb noob reading a thread like this one.
A sucker is born every minute, lucky I learned my lesson once. Carry on with the "cryo'd (class d lol!) Amp is more musical neutral, better PRAT" lmao.
And, all due respect, I wouldn't trust Ozark Tom's opinion on anything. He sells the stuff!
Him and his brown power except on flavor of the week. Then it works good.
Yeah, Crown is giving me a huge pay check for pushing these 200 buck used amps. :lol:
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Yeah, Crown is giving me a huge pay check for pushing these 200 buck used amps. :lol:
I thought you "use to sell". You still selling?
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Cryogenically treated steel/metal/copper only brings the molicules back to a relaxed state/form. In that relaxed state the material tends to be more durable, verses the state in which the molicules are in when temperatures rise and fall after an intense heating like soldiering, welding processes. Or even in reforming by pressing or bending processes. It would help the steel last longer, especially in a tube. Not, sure how it would effect the sound.
The Smith.....
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I thought you "use to sell". You still selling?
Back in the 80's and 90's. Now I sell picture frames on Ebay and I make a lot more money. :D
Selling audio is a tough business if you are an honest dealer.
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No, I was a dumb noob reading a thread like this one.
A sucker is born every minute, lucky I learned my lesson once. Carry on with the "cryo'd (class d lol!) Amp is more musical neutral, better PRAT" lmao.
And, all due respect, I wouldn't trust Ozark Tom's opinion on anything. He sells the stuff!
Him and his brown power except on flavor of the week. Then it works good.
Don't you have a Ncore cheerleading thread to post in somewhere? Dropping the pom poms to troll about cryo? Come on now. That's unbecoming of a Wolfmother fan.
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Back in the 80's and 90's. Now I sell picture frames on Ebay and I make a lot more money. :D
Selling audio is a tough business if you are an honest dealer.
Then what's he talking about? Unless you are tying to lure people into taking pics of their new Crown amps and using your frames. :thumb:
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Then what's he talking about? Unless you are tying to lure people into taking pics of their new Crown amps and using your frames. :thumb:
Gee,now that is a clever suggestion. :D
You are hired.
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I'll put in a couple of words as another fanboy for the Drivecores...
A bit of History....
My first high end speakers were Quad ESL57's, followed by ESL63' then ESL989's with a couple of brief daliances with Gale 402's and Klipsch Forte II's along the way.... then WAF kicked in and the rather visually overwhelming (in a small room) Quads had to find a replacement, something a lot more compact without sacrificing sound quality (a big ask) - currently I run a set of Gallo Ref 3.2's.
Now back to the amps, my electrostatic and Quad driven journey led me through Rotel Received (30W/channel cannot remember model) , Quad 303, 405, Adcom 555, Quad 605 (later x2), Onkyo TX-SR876 Receiver, and most lately Crown XLS2500 (x2)
The Quad 303 was fantastic with the 57's but not so much with the 63's the 405 was ok (well actually very good), but the 606 was much better...
The Adcom 555 was an experiment and was around the same time as the Klipsch Forte's - lots of Grunt relatively speaking, but a somewhat crude sound, the Quad 405 was a bit too wimpy for the Forte's but the sound was much more refined, sweet, detailed ... the 555 soon left the premises.
The Quad 989's were (are) a really fantastic high end speaker - suits my tastes to a tee - and matched with the Quad 606 it was a marriage made in heaven (the other half on the other hand had some issues with it..... I met her after the speakers had entered my household, and when she entered the household they ultimately had to leave)
For AV / general purpose use in the main room, I then got the Onkyo Receiver, which does not lack for power, being around the same as the 606's (circa 140W RMS @ 8ohm).
When I replaced the Quads with the Gallo's I found the sound excellent in most aspects, but it fell down when there was highly complex musical passages at high levels (orchestral crescendo's) - the sound would start getting confused, and the instruments would meld and stop being seperately identifiable.
I started to experiment - the received can be set up to biamp or to bridge, I also purchased a second 606 to try that in a biamp setup with a passive crossover to the 2nd Voice coil (Bridged receiver was better than biamped receiver, Quad 606 was still sweeter and smoother, but only slightly, marginal further improvement with 2x606 and biamp) - no cigar, none of these managed to resolve the issue I was having.
Further reading showed that Anthony Gallo demo'd his speakers with a 500W class D Spectrum amp.... Too rich for my wallet.
But then came a series of reviews that said maybe the pro Crown Drivecore series are worthy contenders.
They are not as cheap here in Australia as they are in the US (double the price!) - but I managed to get an XLS2500 used from the US (even with shipping it was less than half the local price) - and worked out how to convert it to the local power standard (240V).
The difference was immediately noticeable - on most (all?) material I found the XLS2500 to be as good as my 606's, and when the crescendo came along - HOORAY - the instruments were once again seperated the way they had been on the Quad 63 & 989.
I had faith that the speakers should be sonically capable based on reviews - but to actually achieve it required amps that had both the required delicacy and detail as well as sheer grunt.
Needless to say they also do well on Home Theatre duties.
I alter picked up another XLS2500 used for driving the 2nd voice coil on the speakers woofer.... this eliminates the need for seperate subs (unless you are aiming for true 10Hz performance.... but I am satisfied with decent 20Hz)
I tell the lengthy story to show some of my own background and the gear I am comparing them to.
I am completely converted by the drivecores - they are astounding amps and absolutely incredible value.
My next step would have been looking at a DIY high power Class D amp or one of the good value manufacturers (the Cherry/Maraschino amps were looking interesting, as were the Ncores etc...) - but right now I have no dissatisfaction with my system performance, so am sitting tight on the amps....
(looking around at preamp and AV Prepro levels though - but that is another story)
I really cannot recommend the XLS series highly enough.
If I still had Quad electrostatics, they might or might not have been an improvement - but they would have been unnecessary - the Quad 606's did a fabulous job there - but it just goes to show that you really do need to have the right amp for the job.
And with some speakers you really do need 440W doubling down into 4ohm and again into 2ohm....
Could I have achieved the same thing with another type of amp - probably, but not at anywhere near the price - in fact I would be struggling to achieve the quality and power/current at 5x the price I paid.
bye for now
David
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Gee,now that is a clever suggestion. :D
You are hired.
Hey I'm a business man first. In the hood they call me Big Daddy Instagram cuz I can deliver high quality product at a moments notice.
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Great story David, the Crown is worthy to run the Quads. But, I would hate to recommend them because of the high power rating. I could see someone frying their panels.
The best I ever heard any ESL is run them with Direct Drive OTL servo amps. Roger Modjeski now makes one that can run the Quads direct, by bypassing the transformers in any ESL can be a startling revelation. The second best on the 57's and 63's that I have ever heard is the NYAL Futterman OTL's, but good luck on finding a pair. Nobody wants to get rid of them and the prices are extreme.
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Don't you have a Ncore cheerleading thread to post in somewhere? Dropping the pom poms to troll about cryo? Come on now. That's unbecoming of a Wolfmother fan.
He has ncore and everyone else should too! Soooo annoying.
-Jim
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Hi Tomy2,
I'll be happy to take you up on the offer to compare the Crown to the NCore. I'll give my honest opinion and compare them fairly. If it's a tie, I'll buy a crown immediately and sell my current amp. I am not sure it will prove anything to the Koolade drinkers in this thread because I can ready hear them saying the evaluation was not fair because the Crown wasn't cryo treated or that I failed to use the proper wood pucks or whatever snak oil they are slinging.
I've tried those gel pads, bags of lead pellets and other types of heavy rubber pucks on top of my gear and never noticed a bit of difference. Maybe the wood has a "warm" quality. Either way, PM me and we can work out the demo.
Thanks
Jack
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And I'd happily head to Jack's to give another ears' opinions. If we've got time we could try em out on my speakers too.
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Hi Tomy2,
I'll be happy to take you up on the offer to compare the Crown to the NCore. I'll give my honest opinion and compare them fairly. If it's a tie, I'll buy a crown immediately and sell my current amp. I am not sure it will prove anything to the Koolade drinkers in this thread because I can ready hear them saying the evaluation was not fair because the Crown wasn't cryo treated or that I failed to use the proper wood pucks or whatever snak oil they are slinging.
I've tried those gel pads, bags of lead pellets and other types of heavy rubber pucks on top of my gear and never noticed a bit of difference. Maybe the wood has a "warm" quality. Either way, PM me and we can work out the demo.
Thanks
Jack
Ok cool! I just pm'd Rodge earlier because he was the first to respond but I did kind of single you out in my post. Let me see if he doesn't mind me sending it to you first so you and Roscoeiii can use it then maybe you guys could send on to him.
If I get the cedar rings today I'll throw some of them in for kicks.
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Ok cool! I just pm'd Rodge earlier because he was the first to respond but I did kind of single you out in my post. Let me see if he doesn't mind me sending it to you first so you and Roscoeiii can use it then maybe you guys could send on to him.
If I get the cedar rings today I'll throw some of them in for kicks.
Chris, Jack, and Roscoe would make a very good first three on the your list. :thumb:
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Chris, Jack, and Roscoe would make a very good first three on the your list. :thumb:
Yeah, I'm not looking to start Amp Wars or nothing...even though that would be a funny reality show on Bravo. Not sure the rest of America would find it entertaining but I would! :)
I have yet to hear an Ncore amp so it would fun to get somebody who not only owns one but really likes it and see how it compares or not to the crown.
We'll see. I'm sure this will be a harmless, fun, endeavor! :o
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Why don't we see how everyone's schedules are looking to decide the order of things? I know jackman has been busy and I'd like to have picked up my new speakers....
Mums the word in what those speakers are until I have them. Don't want to jinx it. But word is that they like power.
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Hi guys, I've it some time over the next couple weeks. Will invite Roscoe over and any other ACers who want to give a listen. Just let me know what works for everyone.
The NCore amp is sounding very good at the moment. The Crown is up against stiff competition.
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Ok cool! I just pm'd Rodge earlier because he was the first to respond but I did kind of single you out in my post. Let me see if he doesn't mind me sending it to you first so you and Roscoeiii can use it then maybe you guys could send on to him.
If I get the cedar rings today I'll throw some of them in for kicks.
Ok I'll play along...gents let us know what you think? 8)
Chris
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Ok guys, I'll send it on to Jackman and he and whoever can put it through the paces for as long as you guys see fit. Then just kindly pass it on to rodge827.
Jackman- pm me your info and I'll get it out this week. There's a little pack of cedar rings inside the box for your enjoyment. :thumb:
Everybody play nice now!
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Yeah, I'll give it a shot. I'll compare it to some VTL 250s and see how they stack up.
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I realize this thread is winding down but I'd like to offer some thoughts.
I think Class D amps carry a bit more baggage that need a bit more nurturing before they can realize their full potential which in some cases can easily surpass the performance of a more traditional Class A or A/B amp. I just posted this response in another thread about Class D and line conditioning.
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Based on my experiences limited to a number of class A/B amps and several class D amps all using superior line conditioners, my answer is absolutely yes. More importantly, they respond positively under certain conditions. Some of those conditions are related to the SMPS and some are not.
You also said, "I realize that the best SMPS is no SMPS".
I can see why some might think this but like anything, it depends on one's experiences and the extent to which one is willing to address potential problems. So I'd like to offer a few thoughts on class D in general.
1. Class D is digital and therefore by their very nature anything digital will induce a small audible amount of bi-directional digital noise back into the AC outlet. If other components are sharing that same circuit, they will be contaminated with that digital noise. Not the end of the world but it is audible and I presume the more components sharing that same outlet, the worse the amount of digital noise.
2. To the best of my knowledge, most/all SMPS' are mounted on cheap PCB boards and then the PCB board is mounted to the chassis. Unlike traditional power supplies that a heavier, more stout, ridid, etc. that are often times mounted directly to the chassis or mounted to a rigid plate that is mounted to the chassis. This implies that any vibrations induced by the SMPS itself, or from a neighboring source within the PCB board and/or chassis, or simply any air-borne vibrations captured elsewhere in the chassis can have a potentially greater effect on the SMPS because such vibrations become more trapped in/around the SMPS. IOW, if any vibrations in/around the SMPS are not free to travel elsewhere, they will begin their lengthy dissipation right there. IOW, cheap, thin, fragile PCB board material is problaby far worse than MDF which is a horrible conductor for allowing mechanical energy to travel.
That said, line conditioning theoretically has more to do with universal noisy AC inducing its harm (distortions) on anything plugged into the wall. Whether it be a refrig, an electric oven, an audio component, a traditional PS, or SMPS. Since most of us are not anal about the performance of our refrigerators and ovens the distortions induced by noisy AC there go unnoticed.
However, in a well-thought-out playback system it is easily noticeable. But then again, it can only be easily noticeable if one is able to hear that playback system with and without proper line conditioning. Proper being the keyword here, because there are plenty of line conditioners that do little or nothing, or worse will induce their own sonic harm.
Which leads to the point of my answer to your question. If, per chance, you're able to employ line conditioners worth owning, the level of improved musicality should be pretty tremendous, whether traditional power supplies or SMPS.
But with Class D you still have the added problem of bi-directional digital noise generated by the SMPS that still will go back out into the AC outlet and infiltrate your other components. Therefore, you either need to ensure your line conditioner of choice is capable of bi-directional noise filtering, and/or you need to ensure every component has its own proper line conditioner.
Some may say that dedicated circuits/lines will cure/prevent this bi-directional noise from infiltrating the other components, but there are enough in-the-know who also will claim that bi-directional digital noise is capalbe of going all the way back to the AC service panel and then infiltrate other circuits/lines and other components.
There are also two other aspect to keep in mind with class D stereo amps and class D int. amps:
1) If there is only one AC inlet to the stereo or int. amp, this bi-directional noise will be shared between the L&R channels at the single AC inlet and there's not a external line conditioner in the world that can cure this internal problem.
2) Similar problems occur with an int. amp and the active pre-amp section. The active preamp section must borrow AC power from one of the 2 channels to function. Since both channels are already generating bi-directional digitial noise, that will carry forward to the preamp section of the int. amp.
Having experienced these situations myself, knowing what I think I know and the tremendous audible improvement potentials, I would not own a stereo class D amp, nor a stereo class D int. amp unless each channel had their own AC inlet. But I do own a pair of class D monoblock amps and I have some fabulous performance-oriented dedicated, passive, and bi-directional filtering line conditioners on every component. And just like my previous class A/B amps and int. amps, my class D amps benefit equally from proper line conditioning.
Finally, there's the issue of potentially more inferior / less proper vibration control with SMPS modules, but that's outside the scope of this thread.
With regard to your statement about the best SMPS is no SMPS, I recently swapped out a highly rated $8k class A/B int. amp for a pair of small mono block class D $2.4k amps and with careful consideration and solutions to their known issues, that highly-rated $8k int. amp now sounds like a $200 BestBuy receiver in comparison to the level of musicllity I'm now able to achieve via the class D mono blocks.
I've also owned other class D amps from 2006 - 2011 with not too dissimilar experiences and successes but recent revelations have allowed me to take class D much further this time around.
In sum, class D technology brings a bit more baggage that needs to be considered, analyzed, and addresssed and if they are properly addressed, there are potentially huge musical gains to be had. Yes, I said huge as in larger than large.
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Yeah, I'll give it a shot. I'll compare it to some VTL 250s and see how they stack up.
I'll be keen to hear your observations. I would like to get an opportunity to audition this as well. I'll compare it to a pair of 1625 mono blocks, and a Electrocompaniet AW2-120.
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As I mentioned in another thread,
"SMPS's are switching devices and not any more digital than class D amplifier that's not digital at all.
You could say because they operate on a on/off switching they're like digital 010101, except that class D creates a sign wave, and SMPS's don't send data, just a 0-1hz DC.
However they use very small transformers so they're much more likely to make common mode noise, which I discussed some in another post you've read. But also the power supplies tend to be pretty low impedance, which is good and bad. The funny thing is on the output you get filtration that typically starts at the input, but some tend to lack the same amount of filtration on the return paths; if any at all. It's relatively easy for noise to leave the device, in other words. This is very simplified, and not entirely universal. Basically AC (noise) seeks a low impedance path, and SMPS's may provide one that isn't through the filtration."
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class d is not digital, nor are all smps and their circuit boards cheap. Read some of Bruno Putzeys' papers and look into the Hypex smps. They are state of the art.
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Class D is not digital? Granted not all SMPS' are digital.
Are you and/or Bruno are saying that the vast major of "class D" amps on the market today are not controlled by digital circuits nor do they include digital signal processing devices?
I'm well out of my league when it comes to this stuff, but it seems to me most Class D mfg'ers classify their amps as digital and many smarter than me have classified Class D amps in general as digital. In fact, near as I can tell the industry as a whole for the past few decades has by default classified Class D as digital.
When I've done some limited experiments testing for what I presumed was digital distortions and cures, the audible characteristics of the distortions and remedies were as though they were the results of digital noise.
So I'm curious, when did Class D cease being known as digital to the masses?
As for Bruno's products at Hypex? Although he may or may not be building a better Class D mousetrap, from the pics there of his SMPS' and amp modules, looks to me like he's using similar cheap PCB boards that others use. IOW, I'm not seeing any T-6061 aluminum or steel boards used instead of cheap PCB boards by Bruno. Maybe it's a better grade of PCB material than others but IMO it's still cheap and not condusive to rapidly transmitting mechanical energy. Just like pine or balsa wood is not condusive.
Why would you say Bruno doesn't use cheap PCB boards?
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Some 'brave' person(s) need to try the SpeakOn connectors which is the superior interface to the speakers/amp...the photo below shows the obvious.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108314)
This is a close-up of the speakon vs the binding post connection to the PCB in my Crown Xti, which is identical to the XLS series (not the circuit, just the speaker connector parts). There is a notable difference in the sound depending on which is used.
IMO the '2-way(?)' binding post used on the Crown is a poor alternate to the Neutrik SpeakOn connector.
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You don't want to know what aluminum PCB costs....
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So I'm curious, when did Class D cease being known as digital to the masses?
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What is known as Class D amps are not digital amps. They are analog PWM amps with analog input, analog output and analog feedback/correction.
Here are two quotes from Bruno:
From:
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/AES124BP.pdf (http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/AES124BP.pdf)
"•“Digital amplifier” is an oxymoron
Voltage, current and time are physical quantities
(analogue).
•Digital is strings of numbers.
•Speakers don’t understand numbers.
•Class D requires analogue design skills to make work."
And from:
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-truth-about-digital-class-d-amplifiers (http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/the-truth-about-digital-class-d-amplifiers)
"Firstly I'd like to point out that "digital amps" is a misnomer."
There are others. Search with Google and you can easily find plenty more.
As for the Hypex smps, what I meant was they are not cheap, they are extremely well designed, engineered, and perform in a superior fashion. What more do you want?
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stehno, when the incoming signal to be amplified is in the analogue domain and stays in the analogue all the way through the amplifier to the binding posts, then the switch mode amplifier is an analogue amplifier. If the incoming signal is digital, say via an SPDIF connection and stays in the digital domain in some form and is subsequently amplified then you could call it a digital amplifier or a power DAC.
See links below.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwm.htm
The wiki for Class D isn't too bad. As always trust but verify before accepting Wiki content as true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier
For some years now "DIGITAL" has been used as a marketing buzz word implying goodness.
Scotty
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Thanks, Scotty. But I also understand that if there's any digital processing or conversion along the way, then it ceases to be known as analog and becomes digital.
Cab, when I spoke of cheap PCB boards, that's what I meant, cheap PCB materials, which Bruno also seems to utilize. What more do I want? Well, considering I know nothing about Bruno or his wares, nothing really. My point was only about cheap PCB material being an extremely poor conduit for mechanical energy and you said Bruno's weren't cheap. Yet Bruno's PCB boards appear to be no more superior than the Crown amp's PCB somebody just posted and indeed appear cheap as do most PCB boards.
So help me clarify your and/or Bruno's stance.
Are you speaking for the majority of the industry or just you and Bruno when you say "class D is not digital"?
Are you and/or Bruno saying that the vast majority of "class D" amps on the market today are not controlled by digital circuits nor do they include digital signal processing devices? Yes or no only please.
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Some 'brave' person(s) need to try the SpeakOn connectors which is the superior interface to the speakers/amp...the photo below shows the obvious.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108314)
This is a close-up of the speakon vs the binding post connection to the PCB in my Crown Xti, which is identical to the XLS series (not the circuit, just the speaker connector parts). There is a notable difference in the sound depending on which is used.
IMO the '2-way(?)' binding post used on the Crown is a poor alternate to the Neutrik SpeakOn connector.
Do they make adapters for speakon connectors to be used with banana plugs? Or do you just have to have speakon connectors on your speakers?
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Thanks, Scotty. But I also understand that if there's any digital processing or conversion along the way, then it ceases to be known as analog and becomes digital.
Cab, when I spoke of cheap PCB boards, that's what I meant, cheap PCB materials, which Bruno also seems to utilize. What more do I want? Well, considering I know nothing about Bruno or his wares, nothing really. My point was only about cheap PCB material being an extremely poor conduit for mechanical energy and you said Bruno's weren't cheap. Yet Bruno's PCB boards appear to be no more superior than the Crown amp's PCB somebody just posted and indeed appear cheap as do most PCB boards.
So help me clarify your and/or Bruno's stance.
Are you speaking for the majority of the industry or just you and Bruno when you say "class D is not digital"?
Are you and/or Bruno saying that the vast majority of "class D" amps on the market today are not controlled by digital circuits nor do they include digital signal processing devices? Yes or no only please.
No. There isn't any digital conversion happening, as in no A/D conversion. It's a pulse width modulated analog signal, driving an output stage that switches the output devices on/off to increase the voltage/power for speaker levels, with a low pass filter to smooth it all out. If you choose your own rules such that to you, switching = digital, you're on your own.
Perhaps you should take this discussion to the Lab Circle where the technical types can better answer your questions. You might also identify yourself here as an industry participant, if that's the case.
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Do they make adapters for speakon connectors to be used with banana plugs? Or do you just have to have speakon connectors on your speakers?
Never seen adapters, but my all-seeing-eye ain't what it once was...
You just need a cable with a male speakon connector to plug into the amp end...
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Are you and/or Bruno saying that the vast majority of "class D" amps on the market today are not controlled by digital circuits nor do they include digital signal processing devices? Yes or no only please.
Yes, that is what is being said.
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Are you and/or Bruno saying that the vast majority of "class D" amps on the market today are not controlled by digital circuits nor do they include digital signal processing devices? Yes or no only please.
yes they are controlled!! (cpu,memmory,display,interface,other...etc...)but class-d is analog
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It's actually pretty easy to confuse the differences.
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If the incoming signal is digital, say via an SPDIF connection and stays in the digital domain in some form and is subsequently amplified then you could call it a digital amplifier or a power DAC.
power dac... :thumb:
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Some 'brave' person(s) need to try the SpeakOn connectors which is the superior interface to the speakers/amp...the photo below shows the obvious.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108314)
I could do that if I joined the "tour." My Geddes speakers have Speakon inputs, and I also have the Maraschino class D monoblocks to compare against.
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Let the games begin ............. :D
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He has ncore and everyone else should too! Soooo annoying.
-Jim
Maybe an encore after the comparisons ............. :D
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If you guys get the chance to send an amp around, please post your impressions. I'm traveling too much these days to join in, but you will influence my purchase decision.
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Some Class D amps (such as the Yamaha MX-D1) incorporates digital filtering as part of its topology. I think that is one of the reasons (along with a serious overbuild quality) that I liked it a lot (even though it wa Class D). :thumb:
The Class D certainly is a viable option to get loads of clean power at a reasonable cost. I have heard a few that sound excellent. Having said that (IMHO), there is still a little ways to go to catch up to the best SS has to offer. The Electrocompaniet amp I have still does a better overall job at reproducing music in several key areas compared to the Class D offerings I have auditioned to date. They certainly are getting closer (at least the better ones).
Disclaimer: Still prefer tube amps overall. :lol:
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I doubt the Crown is going to be preferred over amps like higher end Electrocompaniet and VAC, those are serious money. But for folks that have a more modest budget I think the Crowns might be the best bet for under $XXX... I'm not sure how much cash it would take to buy an amp that is clearly superior but I bet it would be an order of magnitude over the price of the Crowns.
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Some Class D amps (such as the Yamaha MX-D1) incorporates digital filtering as part of its topology. I think that is one of the reasons (along with a serious overbuild quality) that I liked it a lot (even though it wa Class D). :thumb:
The Class D certainly is a viable option to get loads of clean power at a reasonable cost. I have heard a few that sound excellent. Having said that (IMHO), there is still a little ways to go to catch up to the best SS has to offer. The Electrocompaniet amp I have still does a better overall job at reproducing music in several key areas compared to the Class D offerings I have auditioned to date. They certainly are getting closer (at least the better ones).
Disclaimer: Still prefer tube amps overall. :lol:
You think :lol:. At least home audio can produce specs at 20 to 20khz. This page right from Crown shows .5% at 1khz including their power rating. It means it's embarssingly high THd at 20 to 20khz while severely over rated in power.
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/storagebk/pdf/amps/XLS_Datasheet_CRO137.pdf
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That's at rated output, I'm sure its lower below those power figures and it does include the 2 ohm rating power output, .5 thd at full power into 2 ohm, is not bad and better than a lot of rated amplfiers, we would know more if we had it's full distortion spectra , say at 1/5/10 watt output, this affects home user more than full power specs.
Look at the 14B at 2 ohm @ rated output..... opps dats right , there is no 2 ohm rating , because it's power into 2 ohm is actually less than 4 and it's distortion exceeds 1% in matching it's 8 ohm rating ...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108365)
So much for specs huh .... :lol:
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That's at rated output, I'm sure its lower below those power figures and it does include the 2 ohm rating power output, .5 thd at full power into 2 ohm, is not bad and better than a lot of rated amplfiers, we would know more if we had it's full distortion spectra , say at 1/5/10 watt output, this affects home user more than full power specs.
I think the point Werd is making is that the Crown is Public Address amp, NOT a full scale audio amp. PA amps make no claim to full frequency response. They are closer to guitar amps in that regard.
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Based on published and unconfirmed specs, he would be wrong ..... His 14B has more THD/IMD than the crown at rated 2 ohm power, even when using 8ohm power ratings ...
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Yes, it would be great to see such a graph for the Crowns. Surprised this hasn't been done...
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Based on published and unconfirmed specs, he would be wrong ..... His 14B has more THD/IMD than the crown at rated 2 ohm power, even when using 8ohm power ratings ...
The Crown is a PA amp, not a 20-20Khz audio amp. Not sure we have a good set of specs fro the entire audio frequency range.
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I'm not defending Crown, but Help me , my english not good ..: :D
Frequency Response
(at 1 watt, 20 Hz to 20 kHz): +0 dB, –1 dB
As listed by Crown, is it you are calling for a bandwidth of beyond 20K, then yes it's not a full bandwidth amp, as it is , a good match for your CD player ..
:D
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It's the at 1 watt that is no good...What is it at rated power?
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They did not list and i did say unconfirmed specs, for domestic use the 1 watt thd rated specs is very important for all amplifiers, its what makes low wattage tubes sound acceptable and in case it was missed, the Bryston has huge issues also, if operating below 4 ohm, so its best when examining specs we are consistent in applying the specs vs applicable use.
My point is , crown can lower the rated specs and play the spec game as done in the high end for eg. they could say the amp is 150watts at 8 ohm and then show it doubles at every impedance halving , instead in the PA world big numbers sell so they use the highest acceptable number power wise to sell , this is what is important to the PA market for domestic they use the highest numbers with the lowest THD to sell , knowing this is whats important to the domestic market.
So XL2000 = 150/ 8 .05 thd eg.
300 /4 "
600/2 "
They would use the 2 ohm spec at full bandwidth and sell them as a 150watt mono bloc for 12K per mono bloc pr and Bingo , instant credibility .... !!!!
PS: In the high end domestic power is allowed to be rated at 1%thd
Finally, fig.7 plots the percentage of THD+N against continuous output power with both channels driven into 8 and 4 ohms and one channel driven into 2 ohms. Despite its 600W, 27.8dBW specification, the 14B-SST delivered no less than 690W into 8 ohms (28.4dBW) at the 1% THD point we define as clipping. The clip point into 4 ohms was just over a kilowatt (27dBW), but the amplifier was running out of grunt into 2 ohms, with 720W available at clipping (22.6dBW).—John Atkinson
You will see that Bryston rated at 600 for the lower thd numbers , if for PA use only , most likely they would have gone with the higher number and of course the higher published thd...
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The Crown is designed for use in a PA application. Can one use it for home audio? Yes. Is it optimal? I think not.
Check out these specs: (120 watt SS Amp) I would argue that for most home applications, it's enough power. Plus, it's flat from 20-20KHz.
Amplifier section Output Impedance (20 Hz - 20 kHz)< 0,01 ohm
RCA (single) input impedance 220 kohm
XLR (balanced) input impedance 110 kohm
Input sensitivity for rated output1 V
Max. peak current> 100 A
THD (measured at 1 kHz -1 dB, 8 W)< 0,002 %
Noise (measured with both inputs shorted)400 Hz - 30 kHz : 90 µV 10 Hz - 30 kHz : 100 µV
Rated output power
8 ohms 2 x 120 W
4 ohms 2 x 200 W
2 ohms 2 x 350 W
]
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Freo , when you tried the crown , did it sound like a PA amp...? producing those specs , is not what makes the crown a PA amp, best to compare the specs to the crown at the same power rating of 120 watts, for eg at 120 watts the Bryston is approx .008% thd and approx .002% thd @8 watts, also in your eg, they did not list the THD @2 OHM, or even at rated (8 watt rating ) output, Crown is using their full power 2 ohm rating of .5% thd , which is actually not bad .....
This is the manipulation manufacturers use when playing the numbers game, which has led to most saying numbers dont matter, this is why i will only compare bench test numbers , everything else is conjecture...
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I can't wait for everyone to reject it based on numbers, after hearing it and saying it's totally awesome and fulfills their needs....
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My Job amp is rated to 100k. The Crown amp is clearer and more detailed than the Job in all frequencies, especially the highs.
Any questions?
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This is the manipulation manufacturers use when playing the numbers game, which has led to most saying numbers dont matter, this is why i will only compare bench test numbers , everything else is conjecture...
This I agree with. What is lacking here is just that (enough numbers to make a judgement). Oh well, listening tests are still the one of best judgement tools.
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11 people watching this topic right now. :o
Do ACer's have jobs? :scratch:
:lol:
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11 people watching this topic right now. :o
Do ACer's have jobs? :scratch:
:lol:
Good question!! :o :lol:
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My Job amp is rated to 100k. The Crown amp is clearer and more detailed than the Job in all frequencies, especially the highs.
Any questions?
It's not hard to have high rated transistor amplifiers... The transistors themselves can go into the mhz range often.
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This I agree with. What is lacking here is just that (enough numbers to make a judgement). Oh well, listening tests are still the one of best judgement tools.
So no more spec arguments until we listen ..... :lol:
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11 people watching this topic right now. :o
Do ACer's have jobs? :scratch:
:lol:
Not today! Woo hoo!
As a side note, the Crown is in the hands of FedEx on its way to Jackman.
As you were.
:smoke:
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Popcorn ready, what channel ? PPV ? :lol:
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When it come over this way, I'll give it a good listen. Hey, the Yamaha MX-D1 was MUCH better than I expected, so one never knows.
I think DaveC was close to spot on. For many, it should as good as most. If one owns a high end amp like Pass Labs, Electrocompaniet, etc, then it may not be better. But, gotta listen to actually know.
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I've got 3 different class D amps, so I thought I'd give my impressions. I've got the Crown XLS 1500, and I bought it to use for my band practice PA. It works ok for that. For the heck of it, I decided to try it in my living room with my Pass Labs pre, and SP Tech Timepiece 3.0 speakers. My speakers are currently driven by a pair of Channel Islands D200 amps which sound absolutely wonderful. The Crown? It just plain sucked - really bright and edgy. I then hooked up the Crown to a pair of Tannoy PBM 6.5 monitors in my studio and it sounded just fine. I've also got a Class D Audio SDS-470CS and it is probably 93% of what the D200 amps are. Just a hair shy in the lows, but I wouldn't notice it if I didn't have the D200's. I've got the SDS powering a pair of ATC SCM-20SL in my studio and it kicks butt. I highly recommend the Class D Audio amps. For the money, it's a no-brainer. As for the Crown, it's worth trying with your speakers. Lots of places ship it free and you can always send it back (on your dime). It's lightweight, so the return shipping cost is worth the price of the audition.
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I'm tempted to be on the tour, but I don't want to send it back out the way it came in...
Spences concerns are the ones I'd be trying to address, and then some, to improve.
I don't believe something that can best the Job 225 is inherently not going to be good. The Job has one hell of a rep, and I wouldn't expect it to fall short much of a Pass FirstWatt by any means.
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As a side note, the amps I had in the past were Pass X250.5, Mac MC402, Plinius, Sumo, and general stuff like Yamaha, Soundcraftsman, Hafler, Adcom etc. I'm sticking with what I've got.
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I'm tempted to be on the tour, but I don't want to send it back out the way it came in...
Wasn't sure how much interest this would generate but after it's been around for those who are genuinely interested in hearing it you are more than welcome to receive it and tinker all you want with it.
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I've got 3 different class D amps, so I thought I'd give my impressions. I've got the Crown XLS 1500, and I bought it to use for my band practice PA. It works ok for that. For the heck of it, I decided to try it in my living room with my Pass Labs pre, and SP Tech Timepiece 3.0 speakers. My speakers are currently driven by a pair of Channel Islands D200 amps which sound absolutely wonderful. The Crown? It just plain sucked - really bright and edgy. I then hooked up the Crown to a pair of Tannoy PBM 6.5 monitors in my studio and it sounded just fine. I've also got a Class D Audio SDS-470CS and it is probably 93% of what the D200 amps are. Just a hair shy in the lows, but I wouldn't notice it if I didn't have the D200's. I've got the SDS powering a pair of ATC SCM-20SL in my studio and it kicks butt. I highly recommend the Class D Audio amps. For the money, it's a no-brainer. As for the Crown, it's worth trying with your speakers. Lots of places ship it free and you can always send it back (on your dime). It's lightweight, so the return shipping cost is worth the price of the audition.
Thanks for the input. I've got the ATC SCM-19's, which are pretty much the same speaker as your 20's. Believe it or not, the best sound I have gotten from the 19's are from a pair of DIY 1625 mono block amps, fed from a 6AH4 preamp. ATC's love high powered tubes.
They sound really good with the 500 watt Yamaha Class D as well. Still not quite so good as a 120 watt Electrocompaniet.
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I've got 3 different class D amps, so I thought I'd give my impressions. I've got the Crown XLS 1500, and I bought it to use for my band practice PA. It works ok for that. For the heck of it, I decided to try it in my living room with my Pass Labs pre, and SP Tech Timepiece 3.0 speakers. My speakers are currently driven by a pair of Channel Islands D200 amps which sound absolutely wonderful. The Crown? It just plain sucked - really bright and edgy. I then hooked up the Crown to a pair of Tannoy PBM 6.5 monitors in my studio and it sounded just fine. I've also got a Class D Audio SDS-470CS and it is probably 93% of what the D200 amps are. Just a hair shy in the lows, but I wouldn't notice it if I didn't have the D200's. I've got the SDS powering a pair of ATC SCM-20SL in my studio and it kicks butt. I highly recommend the Class D Audio amps. For the money, it's a no-brainer. As for the Crown, it's worth trying with your speakers. Lots of places ship it free and you can always send it back (on your dime). It's lightweight, so the return shipping cost is worth the price of the audition.
Interesting, especially as regards driving the Timepieces. Is the Crown burned in? Did you try it on your ATCs?
Thanks.
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That's at rated output, I'm sure its lower below those power figures and it does include the 2 ohm rating power output, .5 thd at full power into 2 ohm, is not bad and better than a lot of rated amplfiers, we would know more if we had it's full distortion spectra , say at 1/5/10 watt output, this affects home user more than full power specs.
Look at the 14B at 2 ohm @ rated output..... opps dats right , there is no 2 ohm rating , because it's power into 2 ohm is actually less than 4 and it's distortion exceeds 1% in matching it's 8 ohm rating ...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108365)
So much for specs huh .... :lol:
I guess specs won't mean much if you can't read the graph right. This is ThD vs output power graph. It only tells you how the distortion tracks vs power.
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Hi Russell,
I didn't try the Crown on the ATC. The SDS sounded really good on them so I just left it that way. The Crown didn't have much break in time when I tried it on the SP Tech. The SDS didn't have any break in time when I tried it on the SP Tech, and it sounded great right out of the box.
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I guess specs won'mean much if you can't read the graph right. This is ThD vs output power graph. It only tells you how the distortion tracks vs power.
Dats some serious Irony ........... :lol:
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I'm tempted to be on the tour, but I don't want to send it back out the way it came in.
I have two more used 1500's coming I this week, I will send one to Salis. I also have two 2500's on the way. The 2500 might have more room to mod, it is two inches deeper. I hit the jackpot, yesterday on Craigslist the 2500's were 200 bucks each, 1500's were 135 bucks each. The more used ones I buy, the bigger my rolaity check is from Crown. :D
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I have two more used 1500's coming I this week, I will send one to Salis. I also have two 2500's on the way. The 2500 might have more room to mod, it is two inches deeper. I hit the jackpot, yesterday on Craigslist the 2500's were 200 bucks each, 1500's were 135 bucks each. The more used ones I buy, the bigger my rolaity check is from Crown. :D
Nice!
I got to say as good as I thought one in stereo sounded, I think two in mono is a little better. Looking forward to see if you find the same thing.
When do you expect the one that went to cryo back?
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The Crown is designed for use in a PA application. Can one use it for home audio? Yes. Is it optimal? I think not.
Check out these specs: (120 watt SS Amp) I would argue that for most home applications, it's enough power. Plus, it's flat from 20-20KHz.
Amplifier section Output Impedance (20 Hz - 20 kHz)< 0,01 ohm
RCA (single) input impedance 220 kohm
XLR (balanced) input impedance 110 kohm
Input sensitivity for rated output1 V
Max. peak current> 100 A
THD (measured at 1 kHz -1 dB, 8 W)< 0,002 %
Noise (measured with both inputs shorted)400 Hz - 30 kHz : 90 µV 10 Hz - 30 kHz : 100 µV
Rated output power
8 ohms 2 x 120 W
4 ohms 2 x 200 W
2 ohms 2 x 350 W
]
Quite disingenuous of you to pick on specs when you seem to prefer tube amps which have terrible specs in comparison to class d amps like ncore....
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Some Class D amps (such as the Yamaha MX-D1) incorporates digital filtering as part of its topology.
It's an analog PWM amp. There is no digital filtering.
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0 on Craigslist in my region...
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Freo-1,
Good, bad or indifferent I'll write up what I think.
I'm not expecting too much but I'm always willing to be proven wrong!
The only Class D amp I've heard here (other than subwoofer amps) was kind of a dog and one manufacturer I wrote to about doing a short write up on a demo unit vanished...
However, if the Crown unit can work the magic I'll buy one for the upstairs system and if it bites I won't.
For what it's worth, the moldy oldies here (Carver, Bryston and Hafler) are all fine with MMGs but bite when they're paired with 1.7s or 3.7s.
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0 on Craigslist in my region...
Same here ........
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It's an analog PWM amp. There is no digital filtering.
Incorrect. Read up on the Yamaha MX-D1. It does indeed employ digital filtering. Bruno actually whinged about it:
" The MXD1 uses a flash converter followed by a digital pulse width modulator " He then went on to complain about it being a unnecessary complication. However, it is one of the reason that it sounds as good as it does, and did sound even better (IMHO) than the Ncore. :o
Additionally, unlike most other Class D amps, the Yamaha runs pretty warm.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108368)
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Freo-1,
Good, bad or indifferent I'll write up what I think.
I'm not expecting too much but I'm always willing to be proven wrong!
The only Class D amp I've heard here (other than subwoofer amps) was kind of a dog and one manufacturer I wrote to about doing a short write up on a demo unit vanished...
However, if the Crown unit can work the magic I'll buy one for the upstairs system and if it bites I won't.
For what it's worth, the moldy oldies here (Carver, Bryston and Hafler) are all fine with MMGs but bite when they're paired with 1.7s or 3.7s.
No worries. Would expect nothing less. :thumb:
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Incorrect. Read up on the Yamaha MX-D1. It does indeed employ digital filtering.
It is analog in and has no ad/da stage. Digital filtering of what???
Here is a detailed product description:
http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=usa.yamaha.com&asset_id=35940 (http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=usa.yamaha.com&asset_id=35940)
It makes no mention of any ad/da conversion or digital filter....
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A quick comment with regard to the Drivecore amps... with special note for those categorising it as a "PA" amp.
The drivecore topology and chipset was jointly developed by Harman and TI, and then deployed in the product range of three of Harman's brands: Crown, JBL and Lexicon.
For Lexicon they put out an 8 channel Home Theatre oriented amp
http://www.lexicon.com/productdetail/~/product/dd-8.html
http://www.cepro.com/article/hands_on_lexicon_dd_8_amplifier/
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news/article/lexicon-dd-8-review/10794
Crown on the other hand caters to the pro musician, theater/home theatre custom installation and PA crowd with various drivecore models.
The differences between the various crown models seem oriented to the type of installation and interconnection needs, with the core amplification being identical between them.... they basically make a series of drivecore chips and deploy them in slightly different ways across the various models.
The key advantage of the XLS series we are discussing here, is that they are hugely mass produced, and sold at a rock bottom price, capturing a large part of the pro musician and PA market - but they still use the same tech (perhaps the same PCB's too) as the more expensive Crown Drivecore models.
They ubiquitous useage in the pro world, also sees them cropping up quite frequently used (and they have a transferable 3 year warranty which is nice) - at an even better price.
They clearly are not intended to compete with the likes of Pass, Mark Levinson (another Harman brand) etc...
However the release of the Drivecore amp in the Lexicon range (traditionally reserved for high end / audiophile - home theatres), seems an indication of the capabilities.
They also released Drivecore amps in the JBL Pro range, as well as in the JBL Synthesis high end range.
Seems to me that the Drivecore circuits are gradually proliferating through the Harman range, and their presence in a few high (er?) end products seems to be an indication of their potential.
Paired with the Gallo Ref 3.2's they seem to be a match made in heaven.
I approached the XLS series with great caution due to their PA market oriented marketing, but gave them he benefit of the doubt due to some reputable reviews (http://www.arccinema.com/crown-xls-drivecore-amplifier-review/ as well as various forums).
I am very glad I did.
Please give these the benefit of the doubt and have a listen.
I don't know that they will pair well with all speakers (I would have been hesitant to try them on my Quad Electrostatics), but their abilities seem to be an order of magnitude above their price bracket.
Much as I would love to put an XLS2500 up against an Electrocompaniet Nemo, or more appropriately an AW400, at $12.5k vs $1k for the XLS2500, the comparison hardley seems fair.
Still I look forward to hearing various peoples responses to their comparison of audiophile vs pro amps!
bye for now
David
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I will re-post that Youtube video from Harman. Yes, they designed it for the true audio enthusiast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoGvOhGQX5M
A customer on Amazon wrote:
this amp outshines everything I demoed (Emotiva, Odyssey, Vincent, Class-D Audio and a couple of others not worth mentioning), except a Bryston 4B-SST which cost almost 10 times more.
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...except a Bryston 4B-SST which cost almost 10 times more.
Automatic discredit of opinion. Lol.
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Amazon customer or not, the Crown certainly doesn't outshine my SDS. You can just see it under the console.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108375)
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Amazon customer or not, the Crown certainly doesn't outshine my SDS. You can just see it under the console.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108375)
What power cord are you using? Stock?
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Dats some serious Irony ........... :lol:
Not only that you can't tell you posted excellent specs for a 2 ch amp :lol:. I don't even own this 14B SST. I own the 14B SST/2 which probably specs even better.
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I've got 3 different class D amps, so I thought I'd give my impressions. I've got the Crown XLS 1500, and I bought it to use for my band practice PA. It works ok for that. For the heck of it, I decided to try it in my living room with my Pass Labs pre, and SP Tech Timepiece 3.0 speakers. My speakers are currently driven by a pair of Channel Islands D200 amps which sound absolutely wonderful. The Crown? It just plain sucked - really bright and edgy.
What Pass Labs pre amp are using?
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I use the X1 pre. The power cord for the SDS is home made with Carol cable and Marinco plugs.
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Not only that you can't tell you posted excellent specs for a 2 ch amp. I don't even own this 14B SST. I own the 14B SST/2 which probably specs even better.
You look happy, ignorance is truly bliss ...... :lol:
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Hi Russell,
I didn't try the Crown on the ATC. The SDS sounded really good on them so I just left it that way. The Crown didn't have much break in time when I tried it on the SP Tech. The SDS didn't have any break in time when I tried it on the SP Tech, and it sounded great right out of the box.
The Crown is bright and edgy until fully broken in. All of the other Class D amps I have had here sounded bright and edgy, and they were fully broken in.
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You look happy, ignorance is truly bliss ...... :lol:
:lol: 2 ohms into rated power for this size 2 ch amp is a pipe dream. You can get it at a lower power but there is no way at the rated power into 8 ohms. The amp circuit protection will stop it because one 15amp circuit can't drive 2 channels like that simultaneously. If you want that kind of power its a mono only amps into dedicated circuits and then maybe.
This has gotten beyond silly
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It is analog in and has no ad/da stage. Digital filtering of what???
Here is a detailed product description:
http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=usa.yamaha.com&asset_id=35940 (http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=usa.yamaha.com&asset_id=35940)
It makes no mention of any ad/da conversion or digital filter....
This is Bruno's expanded quote: Think you are getting wrapped up in semantics
" Apparently the MXD1 uses a flash converter followed by a digital pulse width modulator. This is of course an unnecessary complication. The same result is obtained by an analogue PWM circuit. "
" It is a typically Japanese phenomenon to add circuitry for the sake of "more proprietary technology" without reaping any technical benefit. Usually the results are worse than what the simple solution would have done. Sometimes a large number of extra measures have to be taken in order to counteract the negative effects produced by the added technology."
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Quite disingenuous of you to pick on specs when you seem to prefer tube amps which have terrible specs in comparison to class d amps like ncore....
Doesn't mean much. Measurements into a resistor are a far different kettle of fish from actual measurements of a musical signal into a complex speaker load. There is a ton of dreck that was made in the 70's/80's/90's that measured distortion as .000X, and sounded like absolute crap.
Tubes are much more linear than sand devices. There were many reasons that mass market audio went away from tubes, but absolute sound quality was not one of them. :o
Check out this link: Note the sidebar about noise level of amplifying a signal between a 6AU6 and a JFET.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes (http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes)
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The Crown is bright and edgy until fully broken in. All of the other Class D amps I have had here sounded bright and edgy, and they were fully broken in.
It's not because it needs to break in. It's what I predicted right from the start. He is using a low gain pre and 85db sensitive speakers into 8ohms. The amp can't pull power from the wall. IT can't handle a system that needs good power to amplify transients. I said that amp will putter and he is discribing exactly what it would sound like puttering along , hard and edgy.
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So it appears that there is some interest in hearing the Crown xls 1500. I guess it can be called a "tour".
If you are really interested in participating just send me a pm and I'll do my best to keep track of who and where the amp goes next.
As of now it's on its way to Jack in the Chicago area for him and Roscoeiii to check out. After that Chris(rodge827) will receive it. Not exactly sure where he is but from his avatar I'm guessing New Jersey?
Martin in Brooklyn, NY will be next after Chris.
So that's the order as of now. So again, if you're serious just shoot me a pm and you'll be added. :thumb:
-Tom
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It's not because it needs to break in. It's what I predicted right from the start. He is using a low gain pre and 85db sensitive speakers into 8ohms. The amp can't pull power from the wall. IT can't handle a system that needs good power to amplify transients. I said that amp will putter and he is discribing exactly what it would sound like puttering along , hard and edgy.
He could go up the XLS 2500 for a little extra money.
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He could go up the XLS 2500 for a little extra money.
Might help it but the 1500 should still be good enough at 300 watts for the great amp it's suppose to be.
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After that Chris(rodge827) will receive it. Not exactly sure where he is but from his avatar I'm guessing New Jersey?
Yeah man!
Exit 58 South Jersey! :thumb:
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Well, I also have some SP Tech speakers that we can try with the 1500. I have Minis.
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The cryoman lives in Chicago, if Jack and Roscoe is interested, they can hear mine before it is shipped back.
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The cryoman lives in Chicago, if Jack and Roscoe is interested, they can hear mine before it is shipped back.
That's a good two for one deal right there. :wink:
Have you tried turning off the clip limiter function? Just saw a review on Amazon from a guy saying it made quite a difference in sound quality.
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Thanks for adding me to the 'tour'... I can compare the Crown XLS to the Xti series, and to the best sounding NCore 400 I have heard to date (rivaled/even bettered the commercial 1200 from one vendor).
Martin
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:lol: 2 ohms into rated power for this size 2 ch amp is a pipe dream. You can get it at a lower power but there is no way at the rated power into 8 ohms. The amp circuit protection will stop it because one 15amp circuit can't drive 2 channels like that simultaneously. If you want that kind of power its a mono only amps into dedicated circuits and then maybe.
This has gotten beyond silly
Crown rated the amp at .5%thd into 2 ohm at rated output, now you are using conjecture to ridicule fact , by stating what you think, we know from facts the 14b wont do 2 ohm without severe current limiting , same as or worst than this 300.00 crown ..?
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Crown rated the amp at .5%thd into 2 ohm at rated output, now you are using conjecture to ridicule fact , by stating what you think, we know from facts the 14b wont do 2 ohm without severe current limiting , same as or worst than this 300.00 crown ..?
They use a cowardly mid-band 1khz rating. The amp doesn't sit on 2ohms 20hz. It's done to conceal the true power nature of that amp. Who cares about 2ohm distortion when your amp ain't powering it or can't. If you properly tested that amp in 2ohms that thing would flop around and die. It would go into protection.
You want that little power supply to run and hide too, since the bass roll-off will save your distortion rating at frequencies 8ohms and higher. Don't try to align this amps power to any thing Bryston gets or states.
You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
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Thanks for adding me to the 'tour'... I can compare the Crown XLS to the Xti series, and to the best sounding NCore 400 I have heard to date (rivaled/even bettered the commercial 1200 from one vendor).
Martin
Best sounding ncore 400.......is that a DIY?
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Amazon now has the 1500 for $325. And please, I do not work for or own Amazon.
I just love all of these Audiophiles that just knows how an amp sounds by just looking at the specs. :roll:
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Have you tried turning off the clip limiter function? Just saw a review on Amazon from a guy saying it made quite a difference in sound quality.
I will check that out.
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Amazon now has the 1500 for $325. And please, I do not work for or own Amazon.
I just love all of these Audiophiles that just knows how an amp sounds by just looking at the specs. :roll:
$325 ? Still too much :lol:
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One warning - the XLS amps are designed for pro level inputs, not consumer line voltages - the standard 2V line voltage used for most consumer pre to amp signals is marginal (you will need to turn the amp gain up to max). - Yes it does have an onboard pre-amp and allows for adjustable crossovers , as well as bridged/monoblock config.
Replacing my overly sensitive Quad power amps (which use the old DIN standard of 500mV) with the pro level XLS (4V) did require some gain adjustment and adjustment of the pre output levels.
This is not likely to work with a passive pre, or with something like the classic Quad pre's (nice as they are!).
Most US or Japanese gear should be OK though (ie 2V output)
bye for now
David
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In college I knew this girl who had amazing specs, Hugh Hefner would have taken notice, then she opened her mouth and... :o :? :nono: :scratch: :duh:
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They use a cowardly mid-band 1khz rating. The amp doesn't sit on 2ohms 20hz. It's done to conceal the true power nature of that amp. Who cares about 2ohm distortion when your amp ain't powering it or can't. If you properly tested that amp in 2ohms that thing would flop around and die. It would go into protection.
You want that little power supply to run and hide too, since the bass roll-off will save your distortion rating at frequencies 8ohms and higher. Don't try to align this amps power to any thing Bryston gets or states.
You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
More Irony and ignorance werd,
Can a 14B do the same into 2 ohm .... :lol:
The 2 ohm rating of many amplifiers applies to me and does so for many speakers , more than you would think, look at the imp/mag /phase of most speakers and you will see, I'm sure you can find someone to explain it to you . The real point is , the crown is no less stable at 2 ohm than a 14B which rolls over and hides on a 2 ohm load , as measured by stereophile, this is one of the very reasons i have stayed away from Bryston over the decades, so get off your high Horse and out of your glass house....
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In college I knew this girl who had amazing specs, Hugh Hefner would have taken notice, then she opened her mouth and... :o :? :nono: :scratch: :duh:
:rotflmao: I think we have all been there at one time or another.
I'm always up for trying out new equipment. On occasion, one gets a pleasant surprise. That's what happened when I auditioned the Yamaha MX-D1. Actually need to listen to something before voting on it up or down.
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Amazon now has the 1500 for $325. And please, I do not work for or own Amazon.
I just love all of these Audiophiles that just knows how an amp sounds by just looking at the specs. :roll:
You can predict what it will sound like on different loads, if you have done enough bench testing to confirm /deny printed specs .....the real irony is Deh werd man is throwing ridicule at the crown where his own 14B fails, current limiting ..... :lol:
What measurements cannot predict is what someone will like, that one comes only from listening , personal preference and listening bias...
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In college I knew this girl who had amazing specs, Hugh Hefner would have taken notice, then she opened her mouth and... :o :? :nono: :scratch: :duh:
How long did the marriage last .......... :scratch:
:lol:
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Latest...
Jackman/Roscoeiii- Chicago
rodge827- Jersey
mjosef- Brooklyn
SteveFord- PA
jtsnead- MD
Freo-1- MA
zapper7- NV
Pm me if you want to be added.
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How long did the marriage last .......... :scratch:
:lol:
Almost 9 years! :duh: :banghead: :duel: :stupid:
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9 yrs of good Specs ....... :rotflmao:
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Think you are getting wrapped up in semantics
No, I am simply using the term as it is most commonly used. There is no conversion of the analog signal in this amp to digital and back again. From Wikipedia:
"Digital filter
In signal processing, a digital filter is a system that performs mathematical operations on a sampled, discrete-time signal to reduce or enhance certain aspects of that signal. This is in contrast to the other major type of electronic filter, the analog filter, which is an electronic circuit operating on continuous-time analog signals.
A digital filter system usually consists of an analog-to-digital converter to sample the input signal, followed by a microprocessor and some peripheral components such as memory to store data and filter coefficients etc. Finally a digital-to-analog converter to complete the output stage."
I think you are simply confused.....
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That's what a flash converter and a digital pulse width converter is: It's DIGITAL.
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9 yrs of good Specs ....... :rotflmao:
Towards the end the specs began to sag and performance was intermittent. Finally it wouldn't turn on :roll:, so I traded for a newer and more up to date model! The sound is so much clearer with more of an emotional attachment. :eyebrows:
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Towards the end the specs began to sag and performance was intermittent. Finally it wouldn't turn on :roll:, so I traded for a newer and more up to date model! The sound is so much clearer with more of an emotional attachment. :eyebrows:
:lol:
You guys are great! Too bad there's not a tour for that!
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That's what a flash converter and a digital pulse width converter is: It's DIGITAL.
That's the modulation scheme. The input signal is not converted to digital.
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:lol:
You guys are great! Too bad there's not a tour for that!
We would go to jail for that kind of tour! :green:
I said, Pick up the soap! :o
Not worth it! :nono:
So we digress this can go on forever...I'll stop, and now back to you regularly scheduled nit picking...
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That's the modulation scheme. The input signal is not converted to digital.
Like I said, semantics. :duh:
Back to our regularly scheduled broadcast. :duel:
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:lol:
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Saying or implying the amp is somehow "digital" because of the modulator is like saying a Chevy truck is electric because it has a battery...Call it semantics if you wish....
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The cryoman lives in Chicago, if Jack and Roscoe is interested, they can hear mine before it is shipped back.
That'd be killer Tom. Just let us know the details.
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Saying or implying the amp is somehow "digital" because of the modulator is like saying a Chevy truck is electric because it has a battery...Call it semantics if you wish....
Not at all. A truck will run once its started. The digital modulation is at the heart of creating the eventual analog signal that outputs from the amp.
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Towards the end the specs began to sag and performance was intermittent. Finally it wouldn't turn on :roll:, so I traded for a newer and more up to date model! The sound is so much clearer with more of an emotional attachment. :eyebrows:
That awsome ,Confucius said :thumb:
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More Irony and ignorance werd,
Can a 14B do the same into 2 ohm .... :lol:
The 2 ohm rating of many amplifiers applies to me and does so for many speakers , more than you would think, look at the imp/mag /phase of most speakers and you will see, I'm sure you can find someone to explain it to you . The real point is , the crown is no less stable at 2 ohm than a 14B which rolls over and hides on a 2 ohm load , as measured by stereophile, this is one of the very reasons i have stayed away from Bryston over the decades, so get off your high Horse and out of your glass house....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108431)
You I mean YOU not me YOU :lol: posted a THD graph showing it does.
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Not at all. A truck will run once its started. The digital modulation is at the heart of creating the eventual analog signal that outputs from the amp.
I've seen receivers that do all the work in the digital domain like bass, treble, balance. But I don't see how this is a true digital amp unless it does A/D conversion? Not that it matters because the amp looks good. I went looking for one. There are none for sale.
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More Irony and ignorance werd,
Can a 14B do the same into 2 ohm .... :lol:
The 2 ohm rating of many amplifiers applies to me and does so for many speakers , more than you would think, l
Oh yah, I wouldn't know since you haven't posted a system or revealed anything in gallery. What speakers you running?
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Can we please keep this thread civil? With no accusations of one person or another not knowing what they are talking about? I don't want this to go the direction of the more contentious ncore threads.
We'll have more sonic impressions of the XLS amps shortly, from folks with a variety of speakers and a lot of listening experience.
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Thanks roscoe, I think we are all aware of the specs now, since it's been pointed out at least a dozen times. Can we please stop beating the dead horse? I think we are all interested in how it sounds and we can do with a lot less conjecture.
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I think corrections should be welcome, when you have obvious other information. It doesn't have to be a confrontation. Two people, including myself, have pointed out class D is not digital, but didn't have to insult/confront the person who thought it was.
It's simple, education and not ballz bumper carz.
I'm really excited about the flood of amps Tom is getting, including the one I get to pop open.
Dave sent me some pics, but there's no way to tell exactly what's going on, trying to trace the AC. It appears obvious there's some errorness in placing series parallel caps on the CMC's at the input filter. I know why they did it, but I know why it's the wrong option too.
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I'm really excited about the flood of amps Tom is getting, including the one I get to pop
I have been given the green light to ship one amp to the cryoman. The two 1500's should be here tomorrow. I will send the other to you. I doubt if either amp is fully burned in, they were used only one time at one of their local concerts.
Please pm me your address.
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It might make sense to split this thread into two separate threads one dealing specifically with the Crown digital amplifier series.
Scotty
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:rotflmao: :rotflmao:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108431)
You I mean YOU not me YOU :lol: posted a THD graph showing it does.
Wow dats weapons grade ignorance , you should quit now..... :lol:
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I have been given the green light to ship one amp to the cryoman. The two 1500's should be here tomorrow. I will send the other to you. I doubt if either amp is fully burned in, they were used only one time at one of their local concerts.
Please pm me your address.
OMG fine I'll listen to it for a few days, if you're going to force my hand with your not-burned in business. :thumb:
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Whoa.....what happened to this thread!?
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Oh yah, I wouldn't know since you haven't posted a system or revealed anything in gallery. What speakers you running?
More than a few speakers have impedance curves and phase angles equivalent to a 2 ohm load or less..if you look at the graph posted you will see the 14B is heavy into current limiting below 4 ohms. Not an issue unless you plan on running it below 4ohm or have 4 ohm speakers ,similar to running the crown at reduced power output than advertised rating for lower distortion...
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It might make sense to split this thread into two separate threads one dealing specifically with the Crown digital amplifier series.
Scotty
For the Love of God, yes.
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More than a few speakers have impedance curves and phase angles equivalent to a 2 ohm load or less..if you look at the graph posted you will see the 14B is heavy into current limiting below 4 ohms. Not an issue unless you plan on running it below 4ohm or have 4 ohm speakers ,similar to running the crown at reduced power output than advertised rating for lower distortion...
Ok what ever. Go have fun with your Crown and mystery speakers.
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It might make sense to split this thread into two separate threads one dealing specifically with the Crown digital amplifier series.
Scotty
+1
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Start another thread. You want some one to filter through all of this and break it apart? That's a waste of time.
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I started another thread in the Lab circle pertaining to all things Crown XLS so we don't bog down this thread.
-Tom
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I have been given the green light to ship one amp to the cryoman. The two 1500's should be here tomorrow. I will send the other to you. I doubt if either amp is fully burned in, they were used only one time at one of their local concerts.
Please pm me your address.
:lol: So they heard it once and sold it?
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werd, why don't you give it a rest, you don't seem to have anything useful to contribute to this thread.
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Ok
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The Gallo's I use go down to 2 ohm( circa ), and it is the crown's ability to handle this which is what makes it sing....
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Where did everyone go ........Jack's house ? :D
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We formed an inner circle within the thread, and got bored. I'm sure reviews will roll in.
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Tomy2Tone started a Crown Amp thread over in the Lab Circle, you'll find all the play'as over there.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130191.msg1376332#new
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I just got my Odyssey Stratos Plus or Extreme, I haven't looked to see which it is yet. Thanks ZLS! :)
It's a really nice sounding amp! Slightly warm with great resolution and dynamics. I have not A/B'ed with the Crown yet, but I can say it'll be pretty close. One issue is the gain is not adjustable and my tube preamp is way too hot, this amp does not need any additional gain. That means there is more noise as I have to attenuate the signal far too much. A tube buffer or passive pre would be a better match with this amp. Despite that, it's sounding great... no doubt this is a very good amp.
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werd, why don't you give it a rest, you don't seem to have anything useful to contribute to this thread.
+1. I aimed to get this across politely a few pages ago. Hey, I think it's great that someone has convictions and probably some valid points, but most of us want information based on ACTUAL listening experience, not supposition. Let's focus on "listening." Thanks.
Quote from: *Scotty* on Yesterday at 12:42 am
It might make sense to split this thread into two separate threads one dealing specifically with the Crown digital amplifier series.
Scotty[/b]
For the Love of God, yes.
Yes, this has been a long thread now mostly focusing on Crown XLS or "Crown versus..." . I think this was a wise move to create a new thread. Thank you. I'm highlighting it here for anyone just joining us from a long voyage in outer space. I look forward to the sincere respected opinions of the AC members auditioning the Crown amps and providing "amperical" evidence. Thank you.
Here's the link: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130191.msg1376332#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130191.msg1376332#new)
We now return you to our regularly scheduled ampdramedy.
Tune in next week for "Asoundalypse: The X Men Return with Class X amplifiers"
[Okay, I should have edited this]. :duh:
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Well, it's been more than a year since the last post.
Has anyone changed his mind about the Class D vs the rest?
In the mean time I noticed NAD released M22 which is based on nCore and one can get it for $3k. Also, Nelson released F7 class A which by many surpasses all his F development up to now and it does it so by a margin and the price is ...well, $3k.
I understand some things are speaker dependent, but it would be great to hear some comparison thoughts between those two.
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Well, it's been more than a year since the last post.
Has anyone changed his mind about the Class D vs the rest?
In the mean time I noticed NAD released M22 which is based on nCore and one can get it for $3k. Also, Nelson released F7 class A which by many surpasses all his F development up to now and it does it so by a margin and the price is ...well, $3k.
I understand some things are speaker dependent, but it would be great to hear some comparison thoughts between those two.
I moved over to the Class D side about 8 months ago, and haven't regretted it.
I had a pair of Manley Neo Classic 250s. They sounded great with my previous speakers, but when I got my Salk Exotica 3s, the sound was too much of a good thing. The Manleys were for sure space heaters, and would turn my smallish room into a sauna.
I wanted something that would run significantly cooler, so I figured I would start with something Class D, and see if I could tolerate all the "shortcomings" that everyone on the internet talks about.
I went with a pair of Merrill Audio Thor monoblocks, based on wattage needs. I didn't think I needed the full 400 watts of the Veritas with a 93DB efficiency, an active lower end, and my smallish room. I didn't realize at the time that the Thors were only UCD, and not full on NCORE based units.
Sound wise I lost presence. The Manleys did the 3D vocals illusion better. Everything was also more dense in texture and tone. I could see for vocals, folk, opera, etc ,etc, someone greatly prefering the Manleys.
I, however, listen to a lot of Jazz, Rock, Blues, Metal, etc, etc, and I crave dynamics and fast transients. The Thors do this significantly better. They are also dead quiet, low maintenance (goodbye yearly power tube replacement), and run super cool. Hours upon hours of playing, without a single bead of sweat to be seen on the chassis.
I do always wonder what the full NC1200 Veritas might bring to the table, but then I just start enjoying the music, and forget about it.
Its also worth noting that Merrill has great customer service, and I would recommend anyone looking into Class D, check out his offerings.
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Resurrection
Just reading thru this epic thread after coming to the conclusion that Class D has too many advantages and now has probably reached a certain acceptance.
How do the texas instruments evaluation boards compare with Hypex boards? I've been hearing v good things about a couple of their new chips.
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Resurrection
Just reading thru this epic thread after coming to the conclusion that Class D has too many advantages and now has probably reached a certain acceptance.
How do the texas instruments evaluation boards compare with Hypex boards? I've been hearing v good things about a couple of their new chips.
I'm not aware of anyone who has listened to both...
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I'm not aware of anyone who has listened to both...
I have...
N400, N500, TPA3116, TPA3250, TPA3251, TPA3255 (both TI and e3-audio), also various modifications of IRS2092 with various power supplies, feedback schemes, and input buffers.
All of them sound excellent in a particular combination, while not so great in others. After all it all boils down to cost, and Hypex has done it.