[Zero One]

I posted this info on another vinyl forum, but I thought it may be of interest to some here and I promise it works really well if your game.

After lots of tweaking of my TT I decided that the only way to remove the last small amount of noise/rumble etc was to take the spindle right out of the equation.  I am planning a better solution but this one works nicely anyway.

Basically all I can see the spindle does is locate the LP properly but in a well isolated TT with a mat that doesn't transfer vibrations it remains the final source for vibration to get in.

I am using a DIYed spot mat so please bear that in mind, it really is excellent from an isolation point of view. The matt uses dots which are made of a layer of cork, topped by a thin layer of bluetac and then non slip rubber mat, all the dots are glued to another platter sized peice of thin non slip rubber matting.  This is important as the non slip mat dots grip the record very firmly, so once located on the mat there is no chance of the LP moving anywhere.

Now here is where it gets contraversial, I take a cone shaped reamer and put it on my battery drill and then take the record and place it over a cup.  I then ream out the centre hole ( so far I have only done this on old LPs that were OK to trash).  The hole is reamed from both sides and there is no problem getting it even as the reamer is self centreing unlike a drill bit.

The hole is reamed to fit a dummy locating spindle exactly, with a tight interference fit best.

The dummy locating spindle is actually the plastic centre core from a sewing machine cotton reel, which is thin and exact fit over the spindle.  The sides of these reel cores have flutes on them but I just cut these off with a knife and then sanded the resulting shaft.

I use the drill slowly and the vinyl shaving go into the cup or easily blow off the LP.

The idea is to put the dummy spindle through the LP, pushing it through an inch or so .you then locate the dummy over the TT spindle then push the LP down onto the platter....instantly centered.

Then remove the spindle and play the disc, it doesn't slip with my mat, though I did make up a lightweight hollow cored weight to use, but it wasn't needed in the end.

The result is a noise floor that is lowered to nothing almost, which reveals more detail than I would have thought, a side benefit which is a little odd, the surface noise is also reduced.  The dynamics etc are all still there and I cannot detect any downsides at all. Every disc has still spun perfectly  and in fact I have discs that are not reamed that are off-centre to start with so with a little manipulation this method could actually improve them.

I have tried this on a few discs and I am so confident with the improvement rendered I'm looking to have a special centre spindle made so I don't need to ream. though really it is no hardship and in fact the disc can be played on any TT if you leave the dummy spindle in place....in any case my LPs are pretty much homebodies so it is unlikely to be an issue.

It won't cost anyone much to try, but I suspect that for many with noisy TTs the combo of the spot mat as described and the decoupled spindle could be as dramatic as buying a whole new TT....really.

[Wayner]

Pretty drastic measure, Zero One.

There must be a better way. You need to have a nice rest and get around the doctored up spindle hole idea. You still are a mad tweaker with good ideas. This one is too far!  aa

[Zero One]

Hi Wayner I understand your concern and I expect contraversy.  However I will state it is not anywhere near as over the top as you might think, there really are no downsides, it centres perfectly it takes almost no extra time and the sonic improvements are in my opinion vast.

Yes I do have an alternative using a specially made spindle and dummy that requires no reaming, for some TTs like some idler drive Duals the spindle is removeable and could easily be replaced with a thinner one and spacer. I fully intend to make such a spindle for my belt drive though it is not as simple as it sounds.

All I am saying is this, spend a couple of dollars and make a spot mat as I suggest, find a cotton reel core and mod it and then ream an LP you don't like and play it as suggested.  Note: you will only be reaming the hole a very small amount for this. This will cost next to nothing, heck you could even go and buy some sacrificial LPs from and op-shop or somewhere like that.

Seriously this is easy and it only take 20 secs to ream the LP hole and locating it is dead easy too and if it works on my TT which is already very smooth and quite I imagine the results for some might be immense.

My wife and kids would definitely agree I am mad and a bit of a tweaker!

Cheers

[TheChairGuy]

You ARE the maddest of mad tweekers....WAYYYYY outta' the box thinking!

Keep-on-a-tweekin', Zero One   

[jules]

The decoupling idea looks good to me and maybe even makes more sense than some other extreme but accepted forms of turntable design. All the effort put into massive turntables has to be put into question by the direct metal to vinyl link made by a conventional spindle. It's an ideal vibration transfer medium surely?

So what't the extension of the idea? Do you take the centre out of all your vinyl  or maybe affix a permanent central "mock" spindle centre pin with no connection to the real thing?

jules

[Zero One]

(So what't the extension of the idea? Do you take the centre out of all your vinyl   or maybe affix a permanent central "mock" spindle centre pin with no connection to the real thing?)

The ultimate would be to have a smaller than normal spindle made and a dummy sleeve to fit over that, that way you would just place a record on the deck and remove the sleeve, someone on another forum indicated such a TT exists, I searched but couldn't find it, though I am sure he is right.

Note this needs to be used in conjunction with the non slip spot mat no matter which way you go.

Reaming the discs is easy however and ideally it is probably easier to locate well with a larger than normal hole. 

I would not attempt this with discs that were collectable of course, but then 95% of my collection is not of the collectible variety, and those that are I just don't play them.

[Wayner]

Zero One,

I certainly enjoy reading about your tweaks. I can't do this one because I have many valueble records that will loose their worth, buy modifying them. I am certainly thinking along your lines of this ignored source of noise. I am playing with an idea, which you have spurred, and I will persue it this afternoon.

Tweak on you insane goof-balls!!!!! aa (that goes for John TCG too!)

[J Harris]

There is a version of the EMT 927 turntable for broadcasters (possibly the one for Swedish radio) that has a very small spindle that does not contact the record. That way you can play off-center pressings.

It comes with a heavy inverted cone weight that fits into the hollow center of the small spindle. The outer flare of the cone contacts the spindle hole of the LP. You use this tool to center normal (on-center) pressings, then remove it.

Something like this would achieve your goal without you having to alter records...  which definitely would be preferable.

Patrick

[jules]

Yes Patrick,

but I think the idea here is that the spindle is a steel shaft that directly connects the vinyl to the support base of the platter [via the bearing] and being a potentially great conductor of all manner of vibration, might be better removed from the chain. If the heavy metal cone  connects to the spindle, it might be able to transfer the same vibration. All very subjective I admit, but it does seem foolish to go to huge amounts of effort to make a damped turntable and at the same time ignore this solid, undamped central column.

The thing I find most challenging about vinyl is this ... Take a record. Take a straight edge longer than 12". Place the straight edge across the record through it's mid point and have a look at the contact made by the edge. The contact is made only on the edge and in the label zone.

What are the Thiele-Small parameters for a record ?

Jules 

[andyr]

I would not attempt this with discs that were collectable of course, but then 95% of my collection is not of the collectible variety, and those that are I just don't play them.

WTF is the point of "collecting" LPs which you don't play?   

Regards,

Andy

[andyr]

What are the Thiele-Small parameters for a record ?

Jules 

Interrresting point, Jules.

Did you know that Linn recommend against the use of clamps on LPs (well, on their TTs, anyway!    )  bcoz this changes the Q of the record?  (With negative sonic effects!    )

Regards,

Andy

[Zero One]

(WTF is the point of "collecting" LPs which you don't play?)

There are a few things in life I do for purely financial reasons, investments in other words and some LPs fall into that net, thats not to say I'm not awfully tempted at times.  Overall though most of my collection is well played and thats that!

Then again I have many antique cameras that are not used, the pleasure is in the looking and feeling and comparing with other collectors.

Zero One

[Wayner]

Zero One,

I  had an idea if you insist on boring out your center spindle hole. How about the hole size that a 45 RPM 7" has (I think it's 1.50" diameter). That way, if you wanted to use the spindle, you could use one of those plastic 45 rpm to 33 1/3 spindle adaptors.

Just a thought.