Help deciding on a new open baffle

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Radio99

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Help deciding on a new open baffle
« on: 20 Jun 2023, 04:08 pm »
Hi all,
here I am after a decade far from DIY and home audio, seeking help to decide on a route to a new open baffle project.

I'm in my mid 50s, with severe tinnitus and not hearing much from 9khz and up, so I'm quite sure I want to go on a 2-way route.

What I already have (bought a decade ago for a project and never used):
- 2 Eminence Deltalite II 2515
- 4 B&G Neo10
- 2 Raal 140-15D (bought used)

What I listen:
- Mostly vocal jazz and acoustic music (not only, but mostly) at quite moderate volume.

I've been reading quite a lot about all the fuss with Lii Audio drivers (I've never heard of this brand before); lots of projects (F15+F8, W15+F8, W15+F15,...) done with them on OB and people happy with what they get.


My initial plan is to have the woofer until (200, 250, 300, 600 or even 1200hz depending on what woofer I finally choose) and FR from there, so here are the options I've thought of and I want to hear what you think about them.

Option 1:
- Go active with a miniDSP
- Use Deltalites until 250-300hz DSP correcting low end
- Use a pair of Neo10s per side from 250-300hz all the way up and DSP correcting the rising in upper range.

Option 2:
- Go active with a miniDSP
- Use Deltalites until 180-240hz
- Sell the Neo10s and buy a pair of Lii Audio Fast-8

Option 3:
- Go active with a miniDSP
- Use Deltalites until 90-100hz
- Sell the Neo10s and buy a pair of Lii Audio F15 (I like this because of the weight that midrange would probably get being a 15", but honestly, I don't trust too much the response curves that the brand publish and I dont know how good they will be from 2khz and up)

Option 4:
- Go active with a miniDSP
- Sell Deltalites and buy a pair of W15 to use them until 180-240hz
- Sell the Neo10s and buy a pair of Lii Audio F15 (I like this because of the weight that midrange would probably get being a 15", but honestly, I don't trust too much the response curves that the brand publish and I dont know how good they will be from 2khz and up)

Option 5:
- Go active with a miniDSP
- Sell Deltalites and buy a pair of W15 to use them until 180-240hz
- Sell the Neo10s and buy a pair of Lii Audio Fast-8 (maybe not so good on midrange and vocals, but better top extension)

Or, none or the above hahaha

At this point just planning; project making will not begin until late this year of beginning of next year.

Sorry for long first post :oops:

uncola

Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #1 on: 20 Jun 2023, 04:37 pm »
your neo10's and deltalites are cool I wouldn't replace them

FullRangeMan

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #2 on: 20 Jun 2023, 10:24 pm »
Hi,
I wont say what you should do, but please let me say the obvious:
- Dont use low Qts woofers, they need EQ and DSP, they are fine to BR or sealed boxes though.

- Avoid if possible use Hi power handling pro-audio woofers, they tend to have harder suspensions and needs a big amp to be driven.

- If possible use a sole FR as F15 or F18, but if the bass not enough for your taste, you could use the Li Audio companion woofer W15 (F15+W15) that dont need xover if you connect them in serie to 16 ohms, what are nice to a tube amp. However Li Audio also have the bigger W18 and W21 woofers.

- Once you use EQ, DSP or Xover you will loss some of the 3D OB soundstage and, unfortunately, you will lose the harmonics of musical notes, especially in acoustic recordings.

As always IMO.
http://www.glowinthedarkaudio.com/lii-audio-f18.html
« Last Edit: 20 Jun 2023, 11:38 pm by FullRangeMan »

Tyson

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #3 on: 20 Jun 2023, 11:24 pm »
If you sell the Neo10’s I’d be interested in them.

Radio99

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #4 on: 21 Jun 2023, 12:03 am »
your neo10's and deltalites are cool I wouldn't replace them

This is the route I'd prefer to just use what I have; noted.

Radio99

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #5 on: 21 Jun 2023, 12:24 am »
Hi,
I wont say what you should do, but please let me say the obvious:
- Dont use low Qts woofers, they need EQ and DSP, they are fine to BR or sealed boxes though.

- Avoid if possible use Hi power handling pro-audio woofers, they tend to have harder suspensions and needs a big amp to be driven.

- If possible use a sole FR as F15 or F18, but if the bass not enough for your taste, you could use the Li Audio companion woofer W15 (F15+W15) that dont need xover if you connect them in serie to 16 ohms, what are nice to a tube amp. However Li Audio also have the bigger W18 and W21 woofers.

- Once you use EQ, DSP or Xover you will loss some of the 3D OB soundstage and, unfortunately, you will lose the harmonics of musical notes, especially in acoustic recordings.

As always IMO.
http://www.glowinthedarkaudio.com/lii-audio-f18.html
Thanks for elaborate response.

- How much of an issue is a low qts if dsp is used and power is kept well below xmax limit?

- W15 + F15 is something that attract my attention (easy to make, no need for xovers, a simple 2ch amp would do, and probable lots of dynamics), but I honestly find it hard to believe the response curve of that F15, so most probably some type of EQ would be needed and so DSP would be already in the equation.

In real life, how natural timber and voices would be "without EQ" for a W15 + F15?

PD. Sorry if I can sound harsh at time; I try not to, but english is not my first language.

Radio99

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #6 on: 21 Jun 2023, 12:28 am »
If you sell the Neo10’s I’d be interested in them.
Noted, but we're not there yet haha

FullRangeMan

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #7 on: 21 Jun 2023, 01:36 am »
- How much of an issue is a low qts if dsp is used and power is kept well below xmax limit?
I dont know, maybe Planet 10 may chime in to help us.

but I honestly find it hard to believe the response curve of that F15, so most probably some type of EQ would be needed and so DSP would be already in the equation.
The F15 shows a incredible flat curve, but at Decware forum it is very praised FR, what in the end are what count.

In real life, how natural timber and voices would be "without EQ" for a W15 + F15?
The best sound are a FR driver direct from the amp.
The second best are a FR + a Woofer (F15 + W15 in serial = 16 ohms) to a tube amp.
When using EQ, DSP or Xovers the losses are considerably higher.

english is not my first language.
So we are two.  :thumb:

JohnR

Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #8 on: 24 Jun 2023, 08:21 am »
I'm in my mid 50s, with severe tinnitus and not hearing much from 9khz and up, so I'm quite sure I want to go on a 2-way route.

I suggest rethink and get an 8ch DSP. Build a three-way using the drivers you have (one Neo10 per side), then once you have that going sell the unused pair of Neo10s and build a sub (or two).

The reason is that the Neo10s have very limited vertical dispersion, if you use them full range you will notice...

As far as selling things to buy other things, this doesn't usually get a project any further... in my experience anyway ;) Same with worrying about Qts, that will only get you into analysis paralysis, you will need to use EQ anyway so just use it. I suspect that what you really need is a calibrated microphone and some time spent learning how to use it (with REW or similar). Then you will have the confidence to proceed.


HAL

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #9 on: 24 Jun 2023, 10:50 am »
I suggest looking at the new Radian Audio Engineering LM10n 10in planars as an alternative to the BG NEO10 mid and RAAL tweeter.  They are about the same price as the BG NEO10's as sold by PE before they stopped carrying them.

I use them in my Magnetar II speakers.  They are considerably better than the NEO10's and have wider horizontal dispersion.  I use them as part of a 2-way system with servo subs below 180Hz.  Had universally positive response by listeners at LSAF2023 this month.

I do use a DSP crossover to correct the response, so a very good sounding 2-way can be made with them.

Good luck with your decision.

Radio99

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #10 on: 24 Jun 2023, 02:24 pm »
I suggest rethink and get an 8ch DSP. Build a three-way using the drivers you have (one Neo10 per side), then once you have that going sell the unused pair of Neo10s and build a sub (or two).

The reason is that the Neo10s have very limited vertical dispersion, if you use them full range you will notice...

As far as selling things to buy other things, this doesn't usually get a project any further... in my experience anyway ;) Same with worrying about Qts, that will only get you into analysis paralysis, you will need to use EQ anyway so just use it. I suspect that what you really need is a calibrated microphone and some time spent learning how to use it (with REW or similar). Then you will have the confidence to proceed.

Good advice; not sure about using the RAALs, but at this time I'm open for ideas.

Tks!

Radio99

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #11 on: 24 Jun 2023, 02:26 pm »
I suggest looking at the new Radian Audio Engineering LM10n 10in planars as an alternative to the BG NEO10 mid and RAAL tweeter.  They are about the same price as the BG NEO10's as sold by PE before they stopped carrying them.

I use them in my Magnetar II speakers.  They are considerably better than the NEO10's and have wider horizontal dispersion.  I use them as part of a 2-way system with servo subs below 180Hz.  Had universally positive response by listeners at LSAF2023 this month.

I do use a DSP crossover to correct the response, so a very good sounding 2-way can be made with them.

Good luck with your decision.

I'll take a look at them; never heard of them before.

HAL

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #12 on: 24 Jun 2023, 03:24 pm »
The LM10n's were designed by the same person that designed the BG NEO10's.  If you compare the BG NEO10 and LM10n, the construction of the LM10n's is much better. 


Radio99

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #13 on: 24 Jun 2023, 03:42 pm »
The LM10n's were designed by the same person that designed the BG NEO10's.  If you compare the BG NEO10 and LM10n, the construction of the LM10n's is much better.
What about sound quality and frequency response? How do they compare?

HAL

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #14 on: 24 Jun 2023, 03:55 pm »
Both are much improved. Also, wider horizontal dispersion. 

Still very close in size to the original NEO10 size, so should drop in.  The crossover would need some work if one already exists.  It needs DSP EQ to go to 20KHz for wideband use.


gilbodavid

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Radio99

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Jon L

Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #17 on: 21 Sep 2023, 05:32 pm »

What I already have (bought a decade ago for a project and never used):
- 2 Eminence Deltalite II 2515
- 4 B&G Neo10
- 2 Raal 140-15D (bought used)

What I listen:
- Mostly vocal jazz and acoustic music (not only, but mostly) at quite moderate volume.

Are you an experienced speaker builder?  I ask because you could potentially end up spending lots of money and time and still not end up with beautiful-sounding DIY speakers.  DSP is NOT panacea and does not guarantee success IME. 

With your music preference, lower volume, and hearing, I don't know.  Personally, I would consider picking up something like a used Magnepan LRS+ and if you like it, sell off what you have.  Just 2 cents.

gilbodavid

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #18 on: 21 Sep 2023, 07:35 pm »
John, might be worth reading the thread on Diyaudio I linked. He has virtually the same drivers. And look at the speakers a very simple ob build displaced…

I have bought similar drivers with the intention of building something similar

Radio99

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Re: Help deciding on a new open baffle
« Reply #19 on: 22 Sep 2023, 04:28 am »
Are you an experienced speaker builder?  I ask because you could potentially end up spending lots of money and time and still not end up with beautiful-sounding DIY speakers.  DSP is NOT panacea and does not guarantee success IME. 

With your music preference, lower volume, and hearing, I don't know.  Personally, I would consider picking up something like a used Magnepan LRS+ and if you like it, sell off what you have.  Just 2 cents.
No I'm not; I've just made a pair once and until today it's still an uncomplete project... but I want to involve myself again in DIY when time comes.

Buy something used is always an option to use anytime, so...

Tks  :wink: