[captainjack115]

We are all big boys. No one has suffered from Ziggy's enthusiasm. It has been a pleasurable adventure and continues to be so.


I agree!!!

I'm reminded of something a man said to me quite a few years ago.
The man was dead set against buying a color television, his reason was that he was waiting for it to be perfected.

Well, that was years ago and now we have high def TV. It's still not "perfected", but all the time the man was waiting for TV to be perfected the rest of us were enjoying our programs in color.

The sound of a loudspeaker system has and always will be subjective.

We're having fun and learning as we go along.

Jack

[sedge]

Dantheman
This looks a bit like the chicken and the egg story to me ,if you read you post first the quote seems to be answering your post [spooky].
What evidence would you need ?
If you have read all of these posts you will know that there is a problem trying to measure these panels [they do not follow the rules] one frequency response graph will not tell the whole story .I have measured these in many ways and think I am starting to under stand them better ,and If I do post  some graphs I will have to explain why I feel they are relevant .But for now all we can say is we think these panels are worth the effort ,they sound good ,very good ,and If you feel so inclined  give it a go ,but be warned it is addictive .

[DanTheMan]

This looks a bit like the chicken and the egg story to me ,if you read you post first the quote seems to be answering your post [spooky].

I'm not sure what you mean.  The grammar is a bit off.  I hate asking someone to repeat what they said b/c it makes me sound like a snob or something, but I really don't know what you are saying.  Every interpretation I've come up with makes no sense.   Sorry.

Dan

[jeffac]

Congratulations Dantheman

That worked well don't you think.    Got all the EVIDENCE you need so you don't have to waste any hard earned on building some 'measurement-less' tin-box crappy NXT panels.

I was hoping that this wouldn't happen and now wish I'd posted yesterday on what I thought of your unwarranted attach on Ziggy's integrity.  Too late now but as politely as I can say it man, disappear.

Ziggy, when or if you get past being seriously p***ed off, which is completely justified, please look in here from time to time to see how we're going with our NXT panel builds to pass on your wisdom on these things. It will be much appreciated by all those genuinely interested repeating you success.

Order in for 2 large sheets of gatorfoam tomorrow. 

cheers.. jeffac

[captainjack115]

DanTheMan, I know what sedge meant in his first line and.......... no.............I'm not going to explain it to you.........heaven forbid!...........I might be accused of leading you in to the dark lands without evidence.

We all know what Sedge meant!!!

"Most" of the guys on here are quite intelligent. I will "not" waste my time nor the time of my fellow readers by engaging in a P*****g contest.
Anyone who feels contrary to my opinion on this attack on Zygadr will be ignored by me. Don't even try!!!!

Zygadr is an intelligent, creative and savvy guy that deserves better. Whether he's still on this thread or not, he deserves an apology, big time!

I've said my piece, let's get back to the subject at hand.

I have some ideas that may extend high frequency response, if anyone cares to hear them.

Jack 

[usp1]

Hope you guys still continue contributing ideas. This has been an interesting experiment at not much cost. How often do rank amateurs (like myself) get the opportunity to participate in such interesting experiments?

As for those publishing measurements....no harm in that other...it helps all of us learn. Sometimes the measurements help improve and at other times we learn about the deficiency of the measurement process. In either case, it helps drive the process forward.

Hope we continue making progress and hearing from the many of you who are obviously very experienced.

[zobsky]

I'm disappointed with the direction this thread has taken over the past day or so. That too, just as I was considering rigging up some panels.

I hope Zygdar will reconsider his decison to end involvement with this thread.

Has anyone compared black vs white GatorFoam?

Also, re. the 3M tape, there is a 2 mil version  . Gut feeling is that this should be better than the 5 mil tape that has been specified earlier in this thread (the 5 mil tape has noise dampening !! as one of its listed properties)

[j gale]

Zobsky,   I ordered some white Gatorfoam and haven't had the time to really compare. The white is different.  I cut small piece of white and a small piece of black the same size. When scratched and listened to they sound different. The white has a harder surface. I don't know if the difference would be noticed when used as a large panel. It will take me a few weeks before I find out. I suspect that the white could be better on high frequencies. It may just come down to which you like the appearance of the best.

[usp1]

I have the white GF not the black so I a cannot compare. But it seems my white panels are not producing as much HF as zygadr's black panels are. My panels are a little smaller and I am using the cheaper PE exciters so that might be the issue as well.

[zobsky]

I have the white GF not the black so I a cannot compare. But it seems my white panels are not producing as much HF as zygadr's black panels are. My panels are a little smaller and I am using the cheaper PE exciters so that might be the issue as well.

Well, I have one (or possibly two) of the original Sonic Impact sound pads (that I'm guessing Zygdar used)  so if you want to experiment , compare and report back, I'll mail it to you (assuming you're in the US)

Let me know

[usp1]

PM sent.

[Copperhead]

When Dan posted, I thought that pretty much sums up my feelings too. He wasn't rude, didn't make any accusations, just asked a couple of apparently
touchy questions. The response was what you'd expect from a spoilt child.
If anyone cares to read through this and the other thread on DIYAudio, you'd see the inconsistencies in the story over time. eg, First the highs were brilliant,
then sadly an admission the highs were all coming directly from the voice coil, an apology for misleading everyone and a halt to the project. Then suddenly
the highs are back, everythings fine again, until the first measurements come in, and then once again an apology, another ceasing of the project, they are
unsuitable for serious listening levels. Then, no they really do sound great, you just can't measure them. Leading to that very warm welcome to 'fivestring'
who stupidly thought measurements might be helpful.

As far as I can see ziggy fluked finding gatorboard (which has turned out to be suboptimal) and has had those boards with the same exciters leaning in the
same place ever since. Am I the only one to see that he has twice stated that he may have bested the Podiums' with his cheap exciters glued to to a bare
gatorboard. I highly doubt it, and asking for a little evidence is hardly a punishable offense. He's never even heard the original.

Having to resort to swearing and calling someone a fool when your not up to meeting their challenge doesn't reflect too well on you.

 

[DanTheMan]

Thanks Copperhead!  I bet you and Fivestring are the only ones that understand what I was saying.  Yea, these guys really misunderstood me.   Oh well, I'll just stay out of it.  It's best that way. 

Sorry gentleman for the offense--it's hard not to offend you guys.  Reread my posts.  Honestly I meant none.

Dan

[usp1]

Dan,

Most of us are aware of some of the shortcomings of the design. But it has been a fun project at not much cost. In the frequency range that the panels produce, that sound is wonderful so we keep trying to improve. Ziggy's enthusiasm is infectious and that keeps the experiments going.

So don't mind the circling of the wagons...happens in all small groups.

[zobsky]

Okay, I ordered 10 pairs of exciters and a pair of the goldwood piezos mentioned. Lets see what happens. I've had my share of speaker building failures and successes over teh years so I'll try to be as honest as possible when reporting my results.

This afternoon, I dug out one of my sonic impact NXT pads (cant find the other) and tested it on a variety of materials (wood. ply, plastic bucket !!! etc etc)and the best was a piece of polystyrene insulation (in fact the top of our notorious styrosmith horn http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/153831-styrofoam-smith-horn.html ). Definitely something positive happening there, even driven off a 1.5 watt DIY 6AQ5 tube amplifier. Transparent and open. I could hear treble, though I hadn't got the measuring rig out so I'm not going to attempt to quantify.

Once my exciters arrive, I'll attempt to measure SPL and impedance and compare with my sonic impact NXT pad to see if the products are similar / identical.

More soon

[DanTheMan]

Dan,

Most of us are aware of some of the shortcomings of the design. But it has been a fun project at not much cost. In the frequency range that the panels produce, that sound is wonderful so we keep trying to improve. Ziggy's enthusiasm is infectious and that keeps the experiments going.

So don't mind the circling of the wagons...happens in all small groups.

Thanks usp1!  That's why I've tried so hard to be civil.  I know there's no reasoning with beliefs and Faiths.  Everyone just has to take their own journey up or down their own path.  You see how emotional people get even though I only used Ziggy's own words just in reverse direction and everything I said made perfect sense.  I encourage his enthusiasm and want to see it put to good use, but his rational and attitude..... pretty hard to encourage.  I hope my children never act like that, but I bet they will.  Same goes for the wagon train.  I don't take it personal.  Some posters don't understand what I am saying and have said and it's intention--others do.

When I was in college, this would have been a huge layout for me in both time and money.  I may have followed Ziggy's path just because of his enthusiasm and my love of music and HiFi.  Perhaps I may have been sorely disappointed--perhaps not.  I just want to keep it on the level just to provide a word of caution for those who this might end in disgust with a relatively large expenditure of resources.  It's happened many times in the past as other have noted with this very technology.  I certainly don't care to discourage anyone who approaches this rationally.   

Post responsibly,

Dan

[fivestring]

DanTheMan, Copperhead, everyone,

I quit contributing to this forum with my useless data as I was disgusted by the direction it went to, I`m still experimenting with the stuff as much as the time permits, though.

I`ve noticed everything you guys did and some of it is rubbish indeed, I don`t want to think it all over again.

The fact remains distributed mode loudspeaker indeed has a great potential but I wouldn`t want to turn it into some strange dml/piezzo/point source hybrid patchwork, just imo.

I intend to stick to the original principle the way it was meant, find a panel material that is reasonably effective...and simply start another thread instead of polluting this one, where I don`t feel at home anyway.

There are countless threads for all other loudspeaker types, why shouldn`t there be for DML as well?

Miro

[sedge]

Captainjack115
Yes lets get back to the subject at hand, always glad to hear any ideas that could further the development of our  panel speakers

sedge

[captainjack115]

Captainjack115
Yes lets get back to the subject at hand, always glad to hear any ideas that could further the development of our  panel speakers

sedge

[/b]

Somewhere in an earlier post I talked about the physics of rounded corners.

I did a comparison of rounded corners versus 90 degree corners and there was in fact a very worthwhile difference in bass quality. The buzzing sound on bass notes was absent yielding a satisfying clean sound.

I said that I would do a "caveman" test with salt and an audio sweep generator to observe the concentric patterns. With the holiday seasons upon us, I have been a little pressed for time. I will do my test once things settle down a bit. I'm not expecting the results of my test to be evidence per se, but it'll be interesting to find out if I can "see" the improvement I hear.

One of the things we may need to keep in mind about tests and waterfall plots, is that they may not necessarily apply to bending wave technology.

I don't think we ( NXT included) have learned enough about bending wave chaos to confidently use conventional pistonic driver plots as gospel.

From a physics standpoint, exciters, piezos, ESL's and pistonic speakers share a common denominator, they're all "motors". It's how we use those motors to obtain the desired results. I have, in fact, come up with a motor design that may allow extended high frequency response using inexpensive panel materials.
I'd rather not say what it is just now. If it works really well, I may be putting in another call to my patent attorney.

I'm not a young man anymore and retired a few years ago, but in this economy it never hurts to have a little extra coming in. (HUMOR)

Jack

[scorpion]

Perhaps I should say something again at this point. I have heard Ziggy's Black Monsters not for a very long time but long enough to say that his Gatorfoam finds are great. He may very well sit on one of the best high bass, midrange, low/mid treble speakers there is. And that's no small business. That good is his panels I would say. Fullrange they are good enough compared to many designs, but both tone extremes I think could be bettered. I suppose that  'j gale' could verify this as he seems to be the only one also working seriously with Gatorfoam.

I was also pleased to hear fivestrings report about KAPA-board which I considerd a candidate earlier and I am also interested in the Dibond experiments, please state dibond thickness ! In Sweden I have still to examine Re-Board: http://www.re-board.net/ . On the one hand it is 10 mm thick and on the other it is extremly rigid so it might work. Between layers are honey-comb well structures. Here is also 6-7 mm double well to be examined. Still a few possibilities to explore.

But in the end I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with Gatorfoam. Then to me it is mainly a task to see how bass could be improved by subs or perhaps OB-bass.
For the high treble I would easily suggest some omnidirectional super tweeter solution. And that certainly will exsist.

So here we go, Bob ! 

/Erling