AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Open Baffle Speakers => Topic started by: BrassEar on 29 Jan 2015, 07:11 pm
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Looks like Randy is becoming a speaker manufacturer. Seems like a nice guy and he seems to know what he is doing. I wish him well.
http://www.caintuckaudio.com/
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The Mini Me baffles by Randy in Caintuck http://www.hawthorneaudio.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5002
http://randallrash.com/
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frankly these speakers are a disaster.
no consideration for polarresponse or powerresponse.
a dome tweeter with 10-15" woofers will never work regardless of crossover (and these have none)
woofers running fullrange, adding ever more beaming and distortion.
chaos response over the dipole-peak, also into the midrange, ongoing to a monopole dome tweeter with no dispersion control that wont even look like the response coming of the woofer.
simplest way to make these speakers "work" is with a waveguide and compression driver, then add a mandatory minidsp for EQ and cross it around 1.3khz 12db.
hawthorne heritage is not surprising with design choices like these...
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frankly these speakers are a disaster.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.
However, it's not clear there was no consideration for polar response. Some designers just do not think that is an important aspect of speaker system design and prioritize it very low (if at all) on the to-do list. That may be the case here.
Dave.
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They sure sound good with a (poor measuring) tube amp. :thumb:
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frankly these speakers are a disaster.
no consideration for polarresponse or powerresponse.
a dome tweeter with 10-15" woofers will never work regardless of crossover (and these have none)
woofers running fullrange, adding ever more beaming and distortion.
chaos response over the dipole-peak, also into the midrange, ongoing to a monopole dome tweeter with no dispersion control that wont even look like the response coming of the woofer.
simplest way to make these speakers "work" is with a waveguide and compression driver, then add a mandatory minidsp for EQ and cross it around 1.3khz 12db.
hawthorne heritage is not surprising with design choices like these...
So, you must either have a pair or have heard them ?
-I've not heard them.
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frankly these speakers are a disaster.
no consideration for polarresponse or powerresponse.
a dome tweeter with 10-15" woofers will never work regardless of crossover (and these have none)
woofers running fullrange, adding ever more beaming and distortion.
chaos response over the dipole-peak, also into the midrange, ongoing to a monopole dome tweeter with no dispersion control that wont even look like the response coming of the woofer.
simplest way to make these speakers "work" is with a waveguide and compression driver, then add a mandatory minidsp for EQ and cross it around 1.3khz 12db.
hawthorne heritage is not surprising with design choices like these...
Hmmm...just 6 posts all in this catagory. You may be brilliant and wise, but certainly not a
Known commodity here. Maybe you could slow your roll just a skosh.
Hibuck....
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In some folks minds, creating an open-baffle system is as simple as taking away the box. However, open-baffle designs are actually much more complicated than box designs. :) I think quite a few audiophiles don't appreciate that.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Calling a speaker a "disaster" without an evaluation is absolutely unfair.
steve
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im sure he means well. thou iv seen alot of credible criticism of speakers and electronics across the internet that do not sit well with owners and dealers etc. just because it's coincident doesn't mean one can ignore the foundation of good speaker design...
listening is not necessary with these imo. (but i have tried a few like hawthorne, bastanis, pureaudio project and it didnt work) speaker basics has been understood for a long time, which is why so many in the store look so much alike ;)
wouldnt be hard to improve on these, even for a 2-way. but in OB 3-way is a minimum to get it right. or else i would choose a closed box.
i would advice purchasing a minidsp 2x4 and play with it and a selection of drivers and waveguides. pretty good learning tool, immediate response in a short time.
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Are you people missing the fact that the drivers are coaxial ?
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Are you people missing the fact that the drivers are coaxial ?
Somebody is missing something here. :scratch:
Better check again.
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im sure he means well. thou iv seen alot of credible criticism of speakers and electronics across the internet that do not sit well with owners and dealers etc. just because it's coincident doesn't mean one can ignore the foundation of good speaker design...
listening is not necessary with these imo. (but i have tried a few like hawthorne, bastanis, pureaudio project and it didnt work) speaker basics has been understood for a long time, which is why so many in the store look so much alike ;)
wouldnt be hard to improve on these, even for a 2-way. but in OB 3-way is a minimum to get it right. or else i would choose a closed box.
i would advice purchasing a minidsp 2x4 and play with it and a selection of drivers and waveguides. pretty good learning tool, immediate response in a short time.
Is this peter rabbit that has been banned from other forums for trolling, sorry if I'm wrong but I have
a hunch here.
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The pricing is certainly reasonable, and as someone who likes open baffle speakers but doesn't have access to woodworking space/tools, they look appealing. But the lack of any specs or measurements is off-putting. The DIYSOUNDGROUP pages are a good example of the kind of documentation I'd like to see.
Still, kudos for pursuing his dream and trying to make it real. I wish him the best. He just won't be getting an order from me until he shows some FR, polars, phase, and impedance plots. Measurements don't tell the whole story, but they tell something.
(Sigh) If these things worked, they'd be exactly what I'm looking for right now.
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That's too bad because I can only recall having two pairs of speakers with measurements like that and let's just say they didn't end up on my favorite speaker list.
My ears must have measured something different than the mic.
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That's too bad because I can only recall having two pairs of speakers with measurements like that and let's just say they didn't end up on my favorite speaker list.
My ears must have measured something different than the mic.
I'm not sure I follow; are you saying you've had speakers that measured well and sounded bad?
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Sounded bad?
No, more like I have had (and heard) speakers that I have no idea how they would measure (but I suspect poorly*) that I liked better.
*whatever that means (IME what the guys designing "good" measuring speakers call it :wink: )
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In some folks minds, creating an open-baffle system is as simple as taking away the box. However, open-baffle designs are actually much more complicated than box designs. :) I think quite a few audiophiles don't appreciate that.
Cheers,
Dave.
Dave ,it is simpler than the ported box and sealed box,trust me,ob speakers demand good drivers however if there is a chance to compete for bass with boxed speakers...
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I'm not sure I follow; are you saying you've had speakers that measured well and sounded bad?
Measurements don't fully inform one of how speakers sound. They're merely an aspect of it. Granted, if the speakers measure well, there's a better chance of them sounding "good" at least to some people. One should never blindly (deafly?) buy speakers based on measurements alone....unless maybe they're to be used in a very controlled environment like a recording studio, where they are more of a tool for the job, rather than an instrument for listening enjoyment.
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Measurements don't fully inform one of how speakers sound. They're merely an aspect of it. Granted, if the speakers measure well, there's a better chance of them sounding "good" at least to some people. One should never blindly (deafly?) buy speakers based on measurements alone....unless maybe they're to be used in a very controlled environment like a recording studio, where they are more of a tool for the job, rather than an instrument for listening enjoyment.
Back when I had a house I did a lot of speaker building, and honestly was surprised at how closely measurements tracked sound quality ... maybe it comes with experience.
While I wouldn't recommend buying a speaker based only on measurements (I did it once, with an Econowave speaker from Audiokarma's project, and was not disappointed), I wouldn't buy a speaker sound unheard without them.
I'm going to build either Martin King's Fostex/Alpha or Manzanita Ultra project this winter (I have a basement and some woodworking tools again) - the measurements for both are quite good. I'll report on that experiment in this forum.
I do like tube amps, including SETS, which measure badly - but that's because when used as designed, they're "good enough."
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The responses to this thread remind me why I am a recovering audiophile. Some of the harshest criticism is from people who have never heard these and also love tubes and ultra-expensive cables.
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There's nothing better than a good ol fashion preconceived notion. :wink:
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There's nothing better than a good ol fashion preconceived notion. :wink:
Toss in the complete absence of any speaker design knowledge and I'd agree with you.
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It's possible pre-conceived notions are based on past real-world experience. :)
My pre-conceived notion is that open-baffle systems are inherently robust and they will perform decently (in certain aspects) no matter how you implement them.
There also seems to be a pre-conceived notion that products can't be judged/evaluated without firsthand listening experience. (I find that curious.)
My pre-conceived notion is that only MY pre-conceived notions are valid. :)
He's not making box speakers.......so, he's a lot farther progressed than most speaker builders. :)
Dave.
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It's possible pre-conceived notions are based on past real-world experience. :)
My pre-conceived notion is that open-baffle systems are inherently robust and they will perform decently (in certain aspects) no matter how you implement them.
There also seems to be a pre-conceived notion that products can't be judged/evaluated without firsthand listening experience. (I find that curious.)
My pre-conceived notion is that only MY pre-conceived notions are valid. :)
He's not making box speakers.......so, he's a lot farther progressed than most speaker builders. :)
Dave.
Well Dave, in that case, I think I like you. 8) Had you not agreed with me, then I wouldn't like you. :wink:
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I've always wondered what a "recovering audiophile" is. Uh, does that mean you're still in the audiophile Twilight Zone or not. :)
Anyways, that's all neither hear nor there. I suspect these Caintuck speakers probably sound fine. I wouldn't mind taking a listen sometime.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Nice to see Randy going for it.
Have to say, I just don't get the low speaker height. O.K. you fill out the bass that way, and the soundstage probably floats higher than the speakers a bit, but it would still seem like midget musicians on the stage.
Rocket_Ronny
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Randy (Caintuck) has been into audio for a very long time. He's got good ears. People who know him respect his opinion.
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Agreed. As do I. Still, those look about the size of my desktop speakers?
Worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thZA5JxVSIw
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Agreed. As do I. Still, those look about the size of my desktop speakers?
Sizes and specs are here: http://www.caintuckaudio.com/
He uses 8, 10 and 15" drivers (mainly).
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Randy's a good guy. Met him at Hornfest one year and he got me into barbershop quartet music. I'd trust his ear for audio any day of the week.
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I took a chance and bought Randy's OB speakers after reading a very positive review by Steve Deckart on the Decware site. The baffel's I bought have Wild Borro Betsy drivers. I'm amazed at how good they sound. They totally blew away the Monitor Audio Silver 5's I was using. My room is small, 9.5 by 12. I'm using a Decware SE84UFO2 amp. Randy's speakers produce a huge sound stage in depth, width and height. The music seems to float well above the height of the speakers. They also have great imaging with good detail. I'm very happy with my purchase.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135267)
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I took a chance and bought Randy's OB speakers after reading a very positive review by Steve Deckart on the Decware site. The baffel's I bought have Wild Borro Betsy drivers. I'm amazed at how good they sound. They totally blew away the Monitor Audio Silver 5's I was using. My room is small, 9.5 by 12. I'm using a Decware SE84UFO2 amp. Randy's speakers produce a huge sound stage in depth, width and height. The music seems to float well above the height of the speakers. They also have great imaging with good detail. I'm very happy with my purchase.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135267)
Hi Rich,
I own a Decware SE84C+ driving an Omega 7F OB DP set up.
What the number 2 stand for at the end of the SE84UFO2 ???
I did not see that model number on Decware website ???
Glad to read that you like you (Basic - simple) set-up.
Guy 13
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135272)
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Coming soon .....
The Caintuck Audio Storefront.
Now closed :( ; but Caintuck Audio is still selling OB speakers. :thumb:
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Is Alexandria on the Bourbon Trail? :)
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Hi Guy13, The 2 is for the select version with a wood base and meters. Scroll down on the Decware main page and you will see it.
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Hi Guy13, The 2 is for the select version with a wood base and meters. Scroll down on the Decware main page and you will see it.
Thanks Rich,
no very smart from myself.
I should spend more time browsing the whole page...
Thanks for the info.
Like we say here in the province of Quebec:
I've learned something, therefore,
I will go to bed less stupid or ignorant ! :thumb:
Guy 13
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I have these with the WB Betsy mounted and they sound great.
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I recently purchased Caintuck's Betsy Baffle with the Wild Burro full range driver. I like high sensitivity, crossoverless single drivers and low powered SET amplification and wanted to experiment with an OB design. I'm a computer guy, not a woodworker so I decided against trying to build myself.
Are you kidding me, these are a steal. If you go out and buy the wood and components and tools and figure in your time and gas you will spend way more than his selling price.
They sound great with my Decware SE84CKC. They are detailed, coherent and dynamic. Compared to my Omega Super 3XRS, they are slightly less resolving (I quickly got over that fact) but magically more musical and non fatiguing. I guess this could be what the OB sound is all about.
I think Randy deserves credit for his simple and elegant design which, for me at least, has yielded exceptional results.
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I've known Randy for a decade or so and I visited his home a couple of years ago for an evening of listening. It was my first intro to the short baffle idea and he had several iterations for us to enjoy. He was using the Hawthorne Augies for low frequency extension at times.
I was impressed how the Betsy speaker sounded as well as his other, more pricey creations, all on these attractive, short baffles. Tone and imaging were fine and they could go as loud as I wanted. I think it's especially entertaining when something that shouldn't work does work extremely well. These little giants make music, period. I don't know what's not to like about a smart, experienced guy making affordable and competent OB's. Properly implemented, they are seriously good.
Tlak about cheap and cheerful hifi, this is it. :D
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I just now checked out AC and I have thought about my own musical experiences with various loudspeaker systems. My first really open speaker that I likes was an Acoustat 2+2, which was fun. My second open speaker was a Martin-Logan hybrid, also fun. I later built a Hawthorne Audio open baffle speaker with lots of help from a friend and my musical experience "open up". Speaker that are out in the open, no box are the most spacious and musical I have heard. The best non-boxed speakers i have heard and now own are omnidirectional Morrison Audio Model 29's. These are absolutely the most accurate speakers I have owned both musically, spatially and most important , the most enjoyable.. I currently also own a pair of Caintuck Audio Betsy Open Baffle speakers which are the most reasonable way to get unreasonably great sound for not too much money. Finally, I put together a little system with 4 inch full range drivers from Madison in a 13 inch panel driven by a small Yamaha integrated receiver with built in CD player that costs less than a fancy table "sound system".
Cheers and have omni and open baffle fun.
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Morrison Model 29???
Photo's and description please. The Morrison website mentions nothing regarding this model.
Dave.
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I have been happily enjoying a pair of Randy designed Caintuck Audio Betsy OB speakers for around 6 or 7 months now (I built them from a pattern I got from Randy). Enjoying them immensely with a modified BOYUU A9 Chinese SEP amp. The amp is using Harrison Lab 100 Hz 2nd order high pass in-line filters. The bass is handled by a pair of Hawthorne Audio 15" Augies driven by a Rythmik plate amp crossed at 65 Hz, 2nd order.
These little guys are awesome! I have the Augies on 19" square baffles (temporary until I can build matching oval baffles). The Augies are around a foot or so behind the Betsy's. My room is about 13' x 23', with the speakers about 5' in front of a short wall, and almost 3' from the long side walls. The room has lots of "clutter" to disperse the sound (I live alone so can get away with this).
These little guys do create a very convincing sound-stage. They are smooth and easy to listen to, with a very accurate tonality. I listen to recordings of my folk band through them and they make the instruments sound very real. I don't think I have ever heard my band sound so good through speakers.
Both CD's and LP's, even you-tube videos, sound good through these. I listen mostly to acoustic music, including many small Jazz ensembles from the "Cool" era. Very natural sound, like being right in the room with me.
They do have their limitations, of course, especially with a SE 10 watt amp. Movies don't always do sound effects well at high volume. I can play loud enough for vocals to be loud and clear and usually the sound effects are OK at that level. I had the Betsy's hooked up to a TAD-60 tube amp (PP) for the first three months. This was noticeably better for movie sound effects, even with no high pass filter. The 40 watts of EL34 PP amp could grab the speaker better in the bass and could play louder. However, with the SEP, including the high-pass filter, the sound is very close on Music. This will get even better, I'm sure, when I install new heavy output transformers (Edcore) on the amp in the near future.
Anyway, didn't think I was going to write this much, but I just had to comment on these little wonders. In spite of how they measure, the sound is very natural and enjoyable.
Dave :green: