AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Vandersteen Speakers => Topic started by: RandyH on 25 Oct 2017, 12:17 pm
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I've had my Quatro CTs for almost nine months now. I am very pleased with the sound and am enjoying the speakers more every day. Currently I have the subs plugged directly into separate wall outlets and am using the original power cables supplied with the speakers. Just curious to hear if any Vandersteen owners have experience with after market power chords and/or running these subs through a power conditioner? I have a PS Audio Premier conditioner/regenerator but only use it for my source components.
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A power cord plugs into the wall.
A power chord begins a rock concert.
:wink:
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Sorry...thanks for your answer.
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I've had my Quatro CTs for almost nine months now. I am very pleased with the sound and am enjoying the speakers more every day. Currently I have the subs plugged directly into separate wall outlets and am using the original power cables supplied with the speakers. Just curious to hear if any Vandersteen owners have experience with after market power chords and/or running these subs through a power conditioner? I have a PS Audio Premier conditioner/regenerator but only use it for my source components.
I run my power subwoofer power cords through a Running Springs Audio power conditioner but I can’t say that it sounds any different as compared to being plugged directly into the wall. If you do use a power conditioner makes sure it isn’t current limiting.
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Sorry...thanks for your answer.
Couldn't help it. I'm a school teacher so it just pops out!
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I have a lot of experience with power conditionrs, and a little with cords.
The MAIN plus from a conditioner is in the clarity and refinement of midrange and high frequencies.
Generally the bass is affected by seeming to get 'tighter' (taunt, crisp) but also 'thinner' less weight.
So in general if you like the bass as is. a power conditioner is a waste of time.
If you want the bass to be more taunt, immediate, less 'wooly' and do not mind it seemingly less 'full'... use the conditioner.
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When using RCA interconnects, plugging the amps into a separate wall outlet, or rather a different power circuit cam add Common Impedance Coupling noise.
Power conditioners and expensive power cords are way overrated.
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I'm going to follow this thread because the Vandersteen 5A's I'm using also are still wired with stock power cords. Anybody have success with aftermarket AC cables? Richard V. says "not necessary" but naturally one wishes to know from personal experience.
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I'm a huge proponent of upgraded power cords, but for subwoofers, it's not critical. You may hear slight differences with a better power cord, but I wouldn't bother spending more than $100 for one.
With regard to using a power conditioner, that's a different issue. The main purpose of a power conditioner is to protect your valuable gear from power surges. If you feel the need to protect your subs, then plug them into a power conditioner. Don't expect any sonic improvements, though. If you do, that's fine, but if not, then you won't be disappointed.
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I'm a huge proponent of upgraded power cords, but for subwoofers, it's not critical. You may hear slight differences with a better power cord, but I wouldn't bother spending more than $100 for one.
With regard to using a power conditioner, that's a different issue. The main purpose of a power conditioner is to protect your valuable gear from power surges. If you feel the need to protect your subs, then plug them into a power conditioner. Don't expect any sonic improvements, though. If you do, that's fine, but if not, then you won't be disappointed.
I am not sure how well power conditioners protect from surges. I use them mainly to clean up the power.
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I am not sure how well power conditioners protect from surges. I use them mainly to clean up the power.
Agree with this. Power surges are not why I plug everything into a PS Audio P10 regenerator. The P10 does "condition" the AC, but in a way that's different from other power strips, etc. I notice improved overall sound when I plug gear into the P10 (improved noise floor, better detail, imaging). What I'd like to know: has anyone tried upgraded AC cords on the Vandy powered subs? Interested in results whether via power conditioners (etc.) or not.
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I'm a huge proponent of upgraded power cords, but for subwoofers, it's not critical. You may hear slight differences with a better power cord, but I wouldn't bother spending more than $100 for one.
With regard to using a power conditioner, that's a different issue. The main purpose of a power conditioner is to protect your valuable gear from power surges. If you feel the need to protect your subs, then plug them into a power conditioner. Don't expect any sonic improvements, though. If you do, that's fine, but if not, then you won't be disappointed.
I think power conditioners are good for subwoofer amplifiers. Problem is few are good at all. Even more problematic is the subwoofer amplifier usually needs some tune ups too, because it looks more like a bottle neck after cleaning the AC power. I know that seems ironic, but you're removing a flavor with a good power conditioner, so sometimes without that flavor you're left wanting a bit. So not unlike not that long ago, my recommendation here probably would be looking towards modifications first.
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I think power conditioners are good for subwoofer amplifiers. Problem is few are good at all. Even more problematic is the subwoofer amplifier usually needs some tune ups too, because it looks more like a bottle neck after cleaning the AC power. I know that seems ironic, but you're removing a flavor with a good power conditioner, so sometimes without that flavor you're left wanting a bit. So not unlike not that long ago, my recommendation here probably would be looking towards modifications first.
Agreed.
My understanding of the OP's question regarding power conditioners for subwoofers was for improved sound. My point is that don't expect a power conditioner to improve the sound of a subwoofer. Subwoofer plate amps are typically made from low quality parts and don't sound very good. A power conditioner or upgraded power cord isn't gonna magically make a sub sound better. It's best to begin with a higher quality sub amp or modify the one you have, or both.
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The OP has a pair of Quatros which have very nice subwoofer amps. I haven’t heard anyone think that they need modifications. I assume that the subwoofer amps in my Model 7s are high quality so the discussion of power cords and conditioners seems appropriate here.
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Beware, not all power cords (specifically, the IEC female end) will fit into the Quatro socket (the heat sink fins get into the way). I use Pangea Audio AC 9SE MKII Signature Power Cables with my Quatro CTs. The tapered female end fits nicely into the Quatro power socket. Do they make a difference? No idea...I’ve never used the stock cables. I figure if you’re dropping that much cash on a set of speakers, what’s a few hundred more on power cables?
Oh, and I plug my Quatro CTs directly into the wall (the rest of my system is plugged into an Ayre L-5xe.
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I'm a huge proponent of upgraded power cords, but for subwoofers, it's not critical. You may hear slight differences with a better power cord, but I wouldn't bother spending more than $100 for one.
With regard to using a power conditioner, that's a different issue. The main purpose of a power conditioner is to protect your valuable gear from power surges. If you feel the need to protect your subs, then plug them into a power conditioner. Don't expect any sonic improvements, though. If you do, that's fine, but if not, then you won't be disappointed.
Agree with this general assessment and would also note that the type of sub amp is worth taking into account. If the amps are class D, in my experience, they will benefit less from high end power cables. If the amps are class A/B the effect of high end power cables can be greater, though still slight. Just keep in mind that subwoofers produce frequencies our ears are not sensitive to and the manner in which subs produce those low frequencies (tight, loose, loud, deep, etc) is VERY dependent on their design...just like any other type of speaker. Cables and conditioners can make a difference. At best, they will only enhance what's already there to begin with. To what degree? That's very YMVV
You might consider starting here:
http://signalcable.com/magicpower.html
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The OP has a pair of Quatros which have very nice subwoofer amps. I haven’t heard anyone think that they need modifications. I assume that the subwoofer amps in my Model 7s are high quality so the discussion of power cords and conditioners seems appropriate here.
meh... depends who you are talking to. I'm the ultimate snob, so the answer that anything is too good isn't part of my repertoire.
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The OP has a pair of Quatros which have very nice subwoofer amps.
If it's a plate amp, there's a 99% chance that it isn't very good. Also keep in mind that a plate amp which is typically attached to a cabinet are subject to the woofer's vibrations. Cheap parts, cheap cables, open back and lots of vibrations -- that's a recipe for distorted sound.
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If it's a plate amp, there's a 99% chance that it isn't very good. Also keep in mind that a plate amp which is typically attached to a cabinet are subject to the woofer's vibrations. Cheap parts, cheap cables, open back and lots of vibrations -- that's a recipe for distorted sound.
I don't know what your experience is with Vandersteen speakers, whether you have owned a pair or even heard a pair, but they are known for not cutting corners and shoddy builds. I have owned several pairs and currently own the Model 7s. While I have never taken the speaker apart, I would be shocked if the subwoofer amp was anything other than top quality. I seriously doubt that Richard would put a crappy amp in a $62k pair of speakers.
According to the web site "In each Model Seven Mk II, Vandersteen integrates an ultra-high-current 400-watt amplifier with power-factor-corrected, regulated power supply. "
From my personal experience, the sub delivers a very pleasing sound, characterized by very tight bass which is never muddy.
Anyway, back to the OP's original question, I would recommend using a power conditioner if he has heard improvements when using one for his other components.
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meh... depends who you are talking to. I'm the ultimate snob, so the answer that anything is too good isn't part of my repertoire.
Do you know otherwise? if so, please educate us here.
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I seriously doubt that Richard would put a crappy amp in a $62k pair of speakers.
It's questionable to put a plate amp on any pair of speakers, especially ones that cost $62K, for the reasons I already mentioned. Plate amps are used for convenience and low price, not sound quality.
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Vandersteen has been using Audioquest Niagara power conditioners (7,000 and/or 5,000 models) at all his trade shows.
I have a 5000 and it is quite amazing.
Highly recommended.
I hear Vandy's amps use some of the tech that AQ does for the Niagara's.
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Do you know otherwise? if so, please educate us here.
I have yet to be bowled over by any SMPS based amplifier. They are ok, but not as natural sounding as I like.
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It's questionable to put a plate amp on any pair of speakers, especially ones that cost $62K, for the reasons I already mentioned. Plate amps are used for convenience and low price, not sound quality.
It seems clear Vandersteen used a grade up from most, based on the description. But it isn't like he stuffed $20k monoblocks in. They may fit his desired sound?
Generally speaking even a fancy Ncore based unit with DSP etc, is still not anything terribly expensive. But they work well for their purpose. "Well" isnt my particular goal. I have no doubt they are overall good speakers, but not an end all.
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Vandersteen has been using Audioquest Niagara power conditioners (7,000 and/or 5,000 models) at all his trade shows.
I have a 5000 and it is quite amazing.
Highly recommended.
I hear Vandy's amps use some of the tech that AQ does for the Niagara's.
That is correct. I have a pair of the M7-HPAs. They have power conditioning by AQ built into the amp. They also have a suspension system built by HRS.
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That is correct. I have a pair of the M7-HPAs. They have power conditioning by AQ built into the amp. They also have a suspension system built by HRS.
NICE!!!!
I got my MX-R's upgraded to MXR 20's....couldn't stretch to the Vandy amps...
Have you thought about the Mk2 Sevens? (I have the originals and live too far away to even consider the upgrade!)
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NICE!!!!
I got my MX-R's upgraded to MXR 20's....couldn't stretch to the Vandy amps...
Have you thought about the Mk2 Sevens? (I have the originals and live too far away to even consider the upgrade!)
I had the MX-Rs before the H7-MPAs and thought they were great. I am sure the Twenties are that much nicer.
I am not sure what I gain going to the Mk2s. Everything in the room is set up so well right now I hate to make any changes. Maybe in the future...
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170398)
A Grham Slee Proprius monoblock amp attached to the rear of an Harbeth M20 monitor loudspeaker
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I had the MX-Rs before the H7-MPAs and thought they were great. I am sure the Twenties are that much nicer.
I am not sure what I gain going to the Mk2s. Everything in the room is set up so well right now I hate to make any changes. Maybe in the future...
I think they only made some minor changes and the main reason for the price hike (US$10K) was due to rise in cost of materials and labour....
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So I ask Richard about the amps used in the Quatro / 5 / 7 line...
Could you comment on the design of the subwoofer amplifiers used in the Quatro / 5 / 7 line of speakers? There are some that claim that, by definition, plate amplifiers are a compromised design choice (particularly due to lack of isolation from the effects of physical driver proximity). Also, are there any unique design / implementation factors (other than the multi-band EQ) that enhance your sub amps?
...and here's his response...
We do not use a plate amp it is a feed forward design specifically designed for the woofer enclosure, driver (s), and crossovers and is high level as the customer’s amp provides the majority of the gain. Vibrations are a factor if not accounted for but are mostly sensitive to high frequencies (this is a bass amp).
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So I ask Richard about the amps used in the Quatro / 5 / 7 line...
...and here's his response...
Thanks for finding this out. I am not surprised that this is well designed.
And this should end the speculation by those who thought otherwise.
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best sound at shows..many shows is hard to achieve with a crappy design......
i have removed the amps from my 5a as you need to accomplish this task to replace the DBS battery in the main crossover. They are purpose built by Vandersteen and seal very very well in an isolated box within a box. There are something like 16 layers of mdf in a 5a head, short of a model 7 cabinet vibration and effect on drivers, crossovers and amp are well understood by the designer.
on to power chords..er cords for the sub amp....my recollection is RV has tried them and will admit with some cords a micro level of improvement but with many potential pitfalls. a high pressure moldedd plug will outperform over time all but the highest torque mechanical plugs. So far with my model 7 I have stuck with the factory cords...
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I"m also a factory cord guy on the speakers. I have had some really expensive stuff in and none made a positive difference. Head end is different for me as that does make a difference. Cords though are last on my list right now.