AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Single Driver, Wide-Bandwidth Speakers => Topic started by: jrebman on 9 Sep 2007, 10:27 pm
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My name is Jim and I am the facilatator for this new, but apparently long overdue circle. I'm quite new at this facilitator thing so bear with me as I learn the ropes.
I wanted to start this circle because I have a deep curiosity and fascination with the subjects of single driver speakers and single-ended amps and I know many others do as well.
The demand for products in this market seems to have brought it more into the audio mainstream and with everybody from DIY enthusiasts to seasoned audiophiles jumping in to experience what it's all about.
This will be a place to share experiences, knowledge, and questions. All are welcome from novices to experts, from manufacturers and designers and DIY enthusiasts.
The only thing I really request is that everybody who comes here -- whether a fan of SD speakers, or not -- is that we all keep in mind that everybody has different ears, tastes, rooms, preferred musical genres, etc. and that any disagreement be cordial and respectful of the other person's point of view. And of course, the usual AC rules about no religion or politics.
So again, welcome, and let's have fun!
-- Jim
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Welcome to the club Jim, and congratulations on your promotion and new duties. :thumb:
I'm honored to be the first to post in your new forum. :wink:
I have a few questions for you:
- Is a coaxial considered a single driver? Or is that called "cheating" by the SD purists?
- What, by true definition of "Single Driver" are it's responsibilities in the frequency spectrum? Are they allowed augmentation?
Bob
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Very cool, we now have a single driver Circle :thumb:
Bob, by exact interpretation, a single driver is just that, a sole driver that handles all duties from low bass to extreme treble. Coaxials are considered point source or dual concentric drivers. Augmentation of the bass with a sub sort of redefines the single driver as a wide range driver. Both of these methods, though not purist in their form, seem to acceptable for most single driver guys. Don't forget, back loaded horns, like Ed's Horn Shoppe speakers fall under the single driver category too.
On the true single driver front, there are a number of designs that can get pretty close to covering all but two octaves (the lowest and upper most octave). Their main attraction is coherence. If you remember the sound of my big system, especially through the midrange and treble regions, it is pretty darned seamless. There is a purity of signal that tends to be lost (in single driver fan opinions) when you place a crossover in the signal path. Then you get into timbre mismatches between multiple drivers. Not saying that all multi-way speakers suffer this fate, its just that single driver speakers avoid it.
If you want to hear one of the best, true, single driver speakers I've run across, plan on coming out (again) sometime after the 29th. I've got the Teresonics loaded with the Lowther PM2T's (Ticonal magnet)(I've also got some PM2C's sitting in the wings). Right now I have them off to the side as I've got the Altec A7's in the Redrum. I'd like to leave those up and running for the 29th (I think). The Teresonics really need corner loading and the Altecs are there right now, plus they are an unbelievable pain to move since they are so big and heavy. After the 29th, we could move them out and set up the Teresonics again. When (Bolder) Wayne came by a few weeks ago, he mentioned that these were the best single driver speaker he had ever heard.
Bottom line is single drivers can be loads of fun to play with and listen to. Depending on the driver chosen, you can get some pretty darned good sound out of them. Sure, there are compromises just as in every other speaker design but single driver fans choose their shortcomings over the conventional speakers shortcomings.
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Jim,
Congrats on the new circle! I am a new SD convert, I believe the value for the money can't be beat. I own Omega XRS, and listened to the Omega Maxhemps recently, which completely exceeded my expectations. They are now on the top of the list to replace the XRS when I get a bigger space, and are among the best speakers I have heard at any price.
Bob, I don't think a coax is a single driver because it requires a crossover. Single drivers are crossoverless, point source, and time and phase correct throughout much of the audio band. Single drivers can't quite cover the frequency spectrum, but close. Many try to find the best way to add a supertweeter or sub to the mix, or both. Zu speakers are an example that do both, and Omega just came out with a subwoofer to match their products. The Omega Maxhemps go down to the mid 30s, they are very close to a full range speaker.
For me, single drivers are fun to listen to, they draw you into the music and make it easy to forgive whatever shortcomings they have.
Dave
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Bob and Scott,
Thanks being the the first to post and for bringing up just the things I hoped we would start with.
I honestly don't know how to define a single driver speaker, or maybe I'm reluctant to define the scope of this forum so rigidly that it ends up being for purists only. My hope is that we will figure this out as a community and not lock us into a strict interpretation that leaves no room for creative, out of the box thinking.
Coaxials, super tweeters, systems augmented with subs, etc., I think are all things that some people feel are truly legitimate single driver speakers, as long as the main driver is handling the largest chunk of the spectrum, or most of the musical information -- often defined as between 80-200 through 10-20kHz -- and that's not carved in stone either. What about OBs that have two identical drivers in a 1.5 way crossover arrangement? There we have two drivers of roughly the same specification, but with the load apportioned to give each driver a little less to deal with.
I don't know -- I'm asking for people to weigh in.
My feeling is that all the various speaker types -- front and rear loaded horns, open baffles, quarter wave pipes, MLTL, and traditional box speakers with sealed, bass reflex, and aperiodic alignments are all candidates for discussion as long as they are within the "spirit" of the single driver approach. Maybe it would just be easier to say what is not considered appropriate -- speaker systems of any configuration where there are multiple drivers that cover limited parts of the spectrum, and who have musical energy apportioned to them by the use of complex -- whether active or passive -- crossovers. So, a speaker like the Zu Def. Pros, for example -- the main driver can be driven by a 2 watt SET amp and cover the vast majority of the spectrum, and the lower end (don't know exactly what the cutoff frequency is) is handled by a large SS amp. To me, this seems to be well within the spirit of single driver-dom, and on the other hand, I can see where some may disagree. My hope is that there will be room here for both.
Enough said for now -- let's hear what others have to say.
-- Jim
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Funny you should mention the Pro's! I was reading the first nuggets of this excellent idea of a Circle and chuckling to myself that I own probably the most convoluted design that could even make a "single driver" claim with a straight face. :D
I arrived here after building the TNT Big Fun Box and seeing the possibilities though. I just received a pair of Omega's first run hemp drivers to replace the Fostex 206s in those boxes and that promises to be excellent. I'll have to bi-amp those bad boys with the sub array from the Pros in the main system and see how that goes.
Yeah, it sounds weird. But, when I had the TacT I did exactly that with the Fostex drivers and Yamamoto amp on the BFBs and it was super. I even featured that combination as the kickoff to a listening event at my house.
Cool beans on the Circle, it's sure to be great!
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Dave,
Thanks for posting. I didn't see your post until after I had sent the last reply.
My guess is that there are going to be a variety of opinions on what constitutes a single driver speaker, and my intent is to let people define their own idea of what an SD speaker is, as long as it is within reason, which is to say that folks other than purists should be able to feel this is a place for them.
I've heard and liked both, and I think it's more a matter of implementation and how that works to your individual tastes and priorities.
Welcome,
Jim
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Jim,
What do you mean by "complimentary amplifiers" in the circle description?
Thanks,
Martin
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Martin, Welcome, and I hope we'll see a lot of you around here :-). The phrase complimentary amplification is again, an attempt to not limit this to only folks who prefer SET amps. I originally proposed the idea for this circle as a single driver/SET circle, but I know I have used my SD speakers with SET, SEP, PP, Digital, and chip amps, and they all, although very different, were enjoyable to listen to. So, I didn't want to limit to a type of amplifier, power level, etc., efficiency rating, or anything else that would limit this to the purist SET/SD approach.
Mike,
Believe it or not, it was no accident that the Def Pros were mentioned, because it was your system I had in mind with the big pro SS amp on the bottom end, and the very sweet Yammie, with all of 2 watts, delivering most of the musical loveliness :-).
Thanks for posting!
-- Jim
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Yes, I agree as I'm using a sub with my single drivers. :green:
Because there are no true full range single drivers there will be folks who want to augment them. I think its a good idea if it is accomplished in an unobtrusive manner... I guess the debate is whether or not this is possible. I don't have enough experience with a supertweeter to comment, but a very fast, musical sub with low distortion that is crossed over at a fairly low frequency seems to work well.
Dave
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Looks like another great circle on AC, an excellent complimentary one to the OB circle I try to help keep running well.
I fall into the "wide band" driver user, as I do use subs. Visaton b200 mains, and Mach5Audio 12's for the bass.
Great circle, all the best,
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Jim,
Maybe a good guideline is to set a somewhat loose definition of the single driver speaker to be more along the lines of a wide range driver. A speaker that covers as a minimum of say 80Hz on the low end and at least 8k on the high end. That pretty much covers most of what the single driver guys consider purist but also allows some variations for bass augmentation and super tweeters.
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Scott, I concur, because I qualify! (if barely) :D
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Scott, I concur, because I qualify! (if barely) :D
Me too :green:
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I've rarely qualified for anything...But my Omega Superhemps fit the bill on this circle!
:beer: Cheers!
gb
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Gary, you're back :green: Welcome :thumb:
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Scott,
Really, I think that was the point I was trying to get across and for some reason the term "wideband" had temporarily vanished from my vocabulary :-) In one iteration of the tagline for this circle, that was a word I used.
Anyway, you guys have a hell of a lot more experience than I so hopefully you'll help keep me on track in this new venture :D.
-- Jim
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Jim,
Maybe a good guideline is to set a somewhat loose definition of the single driver speaker to be more along the lines of a wide range driver. A speaker that covers as a minimum of say 80Hz on the low end and at least 8k on the high end. That pretty much covers most of what the single driver guys consider purist but also allows some variations for bass augmentation and super tweeters.
I guess I don't qualify. My current design and my new designs are not even close to meeting the 80 Hz value.
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Good luck Jim....looking forward to gaining more knowledge about single driver speakers..... 8)
Chris
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Just don't build 'em out of cardboard.
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Just don't build 'em out of cardboard.
I thought they were "unique"......
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=10187)
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I happen to have a pair of cardboard SD speakers. They're out on loan at the moment, but they use those little stick-on transducers from Sonic Impact. They sound pretty decent considering.
Thanks for the welcome, Chris (if I knew the characters for "beer toast" i'd add them here :D.
-- Jim
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I guess I don't qualify. My current design and my new designs are not even close to meeting the 80 Hz value.
Hiya Martin,
I haven't been over to your site in a while. Tell us about your new designs.
Oh, and your MLTL's definitely qualify :thumb:
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Scott,
Right now I am working on the following designs and projects.
1. My last design was a Lowther OB system using two Eminence Alpha 15A woofers and a Fostex super-tweeter. I have an update to prepare to finish off this project.
2. A study of OB design using passive crossovers and full range drivers. This is an article which lays out by example my method for designing such a system and how to select an appropriate woofer to mate with a full range driver in a small OB using a passive crossover. Goals are to have a small baffle and a reasonable cost system. Should be available in the next few weeks.
3. I have a half finished pair of David Dlugos' Frugalhorns in my basement. When finished these will be my test bed for future upgrades to my BLH MathCad worksheets. The back loaded horn articles on my site will also be updated. Work for the winter.
4. Longer range, I have a tentative design for a BLH for my Lowther drivers. I am hoping to work on the design a little more and then build and test it. Probably not until next year.
Martin
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Martin,
Did yu get the frugalhorn as a KD
-- Jim
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Jim,
What is a KD?
Martin
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Sorry -- Knock Down -- flat pack kinds of things like one might find at Ikea. Basically a pre-machined kit that takes nothing more than glue and a screwdriver to asemble.
-- Jim
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Yes, it is one of Dave's flatpacks. I have a pair of his modified Fostex FE-126E drivers for it when assembly is finished.
When I am done, I am hoping to have good acoustic and electrical measurements and a correlated MathCad model.
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Just don't build 'em out of cardboard.
I thought they were "unique"......
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=10187)
Hey!
Well, the reason not to build them out of cardboard like that is that they won't be strong enough for our Speaker Model to lean on, or put beer on and not getting the cardboard wet. :lol:
Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
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Ah....come on Buddy...a little scotch tape, and their good as new... :beer: :lol:
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I submit these for my membership privileges in this Glorious Clubb
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=1087)
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Hey!
First congratulation to Jim/jrebman for new job here on this "SD/SET Circle" :D Now this is the circle I would definitely visit :D
Okay, now it is time for me to share my SD/SET aa
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14285/014%7E2.jpg)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14285/015%7E2.jpg)
Pictures above from one of my Mini-Raves of which the famous lonewolf42, aka Speaker Model came. :D The second picture so the rest of the system, including my pimped turntable of which used to be Rega Planar 2 and again pimped Audio Note M1 tubed Pre. :D
My speakers are home made with Fostex FE167E drivers based on the TQWT cabs running fullrange without any xover or network. With Fostex FT17H as Supertweeter with a single 0.47uf cap. So, I guess you could call this 1.5 than :lol: I built them back in around Aug 2002 as a fun project but ended up replacing my Maggie 1.5 of which I have use since 1996.
Those SET monoblocs are from Welborne Lab "Apollo" Designed especially for use with KR Audio higher Triode tube like 300BXLS and 824VHD... currently have 824VHDs in them. And 6EM7/6EA7 driver tube. Utilized Electra Prints output and power transformers. Putting out about 18wch of pure SET power! Well, those tubes are 5 years old now, I guessitmated that they probably have about 3500 hours on them.. hmmm maybe near 4000. :D Got these babies as kit back in Dec. 1999. :D Not the quietest amps but I love the sound and the drive of these babies. And aren't they pretty? :P
I'm very happy with my system right now. Ain't perfect but I could live with their short comings. :D Oh! Yeah! my speaker ain't that great looking. But they sound great and I'm okay with the Natural Plywood finish on them :lol:
If you ask me if I like my speaker or how much I like them? Than this...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=32874)
... should answer that question. :inlove: Have you hug your speakers today? :lol:
Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
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Wow, 4 pages since I asked my question! :o
Everybody, thank you for your answers.
Scott that was an extremely well written description, I totally understand. My rig does not fit the criteria. Not even close. :lol: I was wondering specifically about the Hawthorne Audio Silver Iris Coaxial in itself as being considered a fullranger. Looks like it might be 'patronized' as a distant relative. Kinda' like a third cousin at the families Christmas party, "tolerated" but not invited in any conversations. :lol:
Bob
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Hi Jim,
Whoa... I just spotted this forum. Congratulations on your new SD circle!
I look forward to reading/posting here and watching this circle take off!
Thanks for the welcome, Chris (if I knew the characters for "beer toast" i'd add them here
Beer Tost = colon beer colon :beer:
Thanks for starting this circle!
Vinnie
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If you ask me if I like my speaker or how much I like them? Than this...
... should answer that question. Have you hug your speakers today?
Take care,
Buddy
Whoa... if I was the manufacturer of the speaker I'd ask to put that pic on my website. There are written testimonials, but this really gets the point across of a "happy customer" :thumb:
Nice!
Vinnie
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hey buddy, i have a really nice pair of set mono block amps i rigged up, conwerted from an akai m8 tape deck, yust like what you're running. i bet they'd drive your speakers quite nicely... :wink:
re: single-driver speakers, i recently purchased two pairs of fostex fe-103 drivers that were stuffed into boxes that had the more modern (& cheap?) pioneer drivers extracted:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11715)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10122/fostex_fe-103__s_-_front_grille%2C___rear.jpg)
and there's ~$20/pair phase plug upgrades i have heard about as well, from what i've read. (cool pic w/all their different phase plugs lined up):
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/
(http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/images/chess-men-1.jpg)
but, i dunno if this qualifies me as a member of the single driver club, even tho these fe-103's will go from ~50hz to ~15khz. because, i will likely run them stacked, two per channel. and, i am gonna run them w/a pair of super tweeters that i bought a while back, & had stashed away, for yust such an application - a pair of pioneer pt-r7 ribbons, that are flat out to ~100khz. the bottom end will be handled by a pair of vmps larger subs, my old faithful standby's. all this will happen as soon as my new (Used) deqx pdc 2.6 shows up. :green: i will likely drive the fostex's in series; the 16 ohm load will work nicely from the 16 ohm tap of my modded almarro a205a mkll. the ribbons will likely be driven by my akai m8-derived monoblocks. should be fun; i am anxious to see how something like this compares w/my conwentional speakers... of course, i will have to try the deqx on my conwentional set-ups as well... 8)
doug s.
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Vinnie,
Thanks! It's a great new adventure and I hope I can learn to do a decent job of it.
:beer:
:D
Thanks again,
Jim
Hi Jim,
Whoa... I just spotted this forum. Congratulations on your new SD circle!
I look forward to reading/posting here and watching this circle take off!
Thanks for the welcome, Chris (if I knew the characters for "beer toast" i'd add them here
Beer Tost = colon beer colon :beer:
Thanks for starting this circle!
Vinnie
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Here's my application for membership in the SD circle :D
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=9293)
With a picture like this I'll make sure not to apply to the Eye Fidelity circle :rotflmao:
Boris
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JQP,
Just so you know, I am blind so can't see the picture you posted. If you feel like describing them, please go ahead, or you can post in the "our systems" thread I just started.
Thanks, and welcome!
Buddy, thanks for the welcome, and I'd like to know more about those speakers at some point. It sounds like you have a very sweet setup there!
Welcome!
Doug, that sounds like a nice setup too. to my mind it would qualify because you are running the bulk of the spectrum through a wideband driver (even if it is two of them), and using a single ended pentode amp for that same range, and I think that's fully within the spirit of the single driver approach, even if it isn't exactly purist :D.
Welcome, and I hope you tell us more about this system as it comes together.
Everybody, I've started another thread in which you can talke about all your single driver/SET (or whatever amplifier) adventures. Check it out and feel free to talk about your systems, current, past , and the future possibilities for it.
-- Jim
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Boris, I posted that last reply as you were posting yours, but welcome!
I've been looking very closely at your PSE PCL-84 kit, so once my little office system is in place, and my workbench setup again, that will be one of the first things I'll be getting to do some experimentation with.
Welcome again,
Jim
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Straight....no chaser...
My Omega A8......Visaton B200 speaker... :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2773)
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Jim,
Thanks, congratulations and good luck! :D
Boris
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My application .... Bob Brines FT1600MKii featuring Fostex FE167E.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=36922)
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Very glad we have this circle.
Marketing types have been pushing the 20 - 20,000 Hz myth for way too long. I know subwoofer and supertweeter vendors hate that kind of talk, but for music 30 - 15,000 Hz is enough. And don't forget room gain to supplement the deep bass.
Even with these qualifiers, and as mentioned above, there are almost no "full range" single driver speakers. But IMO the Fostex F200A qualifies, even without a cabinet (just mounted open baffle). In my MJK "inspired" MLTL they rock! Other single driver speaker owners that have heard them have been dumbfounded by the amount of deep bass and most of them only heard them with 2 - 6 wpc amps and without any baffle step/zobel circuit!!
Perhaps the next thread should start a list of preferred drivers, prices, and sources.
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hey buddy, i have a really nice pair of set mono block amps i rigged up, conwerted from an akai m8 tape deck, yust like what you're running. i bet they'd drive your speakers quite nicely... :wink:
re: single-driver speakers, i recently purchased two pairs of fostex fe-103 drivers that were stuffed into boxes that had the more modern (& cheap?) pioneer drivers extracted:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11715)
doug s.
Hey!
Doug, nice find :D Are they Alnico version? Well, how about building them a nice small TQWT cabs for them :wink:
Yes, those EL84 SE amp in the M8 sound very nice. I actually using them as headphone amps to drive my Grado SR60 right now... mostly for late night. :D Yes, they will drive my Fostex FE167E but still I prefer my SET monoblocs. :wink:
Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
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hi buddy,
i don't think these are the alnico wersions, not sure. but the magnets are huge. not sure about building new cabinets for them; as i will be running two pairs, stacked, crossed over to supertweeters and subwoofers w/a deqx, i think they should work fine as-is in this type of set-up. crossing them over at ~80hz to the woofers & somewhere around 7khz-12khz to the supertweeters, i don't think i would need to get more range out of them, which a tqwt cabinet would do... and the deqx, besides being a 3-way x-over w/adjustable x-over points & slopes adjustable up to 200db/octave, it offers speaker and room eq. so, it will help bring the best out of these fostex drivers, i think... but, who knows what the future will bring. :wink:
yup, i am sure those mono block amps you have are quite nice! :thumb:
doug s.
hey buddy, i have a really nice pair of set mono block amps i rigged up, conwerted from an akai m8 tape deck, yust like what you're running. i bet they'd drive your speakers quite nicely... :wink:
re: single-driver speakers, i recently purchased two pairs of fostex fe-103 drivers that were stuffed into boxes that had the more modern (& cheap?) pioneer drivers extracted:
doug s.
Hey!
Doug, nice find :D Are they Alnico version? Well, how about building them a nice small TQWT cabs for them :wink:
Yes, those EL84 SE amp in the M8 sound very nice. I actually using them as headphone amps to drive my Grado SR60 right now... mostly for late night. :D Yes, they will drive my Fostex FE167E but still I prefer my SET monoblocs. :wink:
Take care,
Buddy :thumb:
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Funny, I don't think of myself as a single-driver kind of guy... but then I realized that is what I listen to most of the time! :duh:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66942)
BTW - the "woofer" is actually a passive radiator ;)
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Funny, I don't think of myself as a single-driver kind of guy... but then I realized that is what I listen to most of the time! :duh:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66942)
BTW - the "woofer" is actually a passive radiator ;)
John, nice! Tell me more about the speakers?
Thanks,
Boris
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Those are Jordan JX92s drivers. Made the cabinets and "designed the crossover myself" :lol: ;) (Actually I usually do run some BSC but seem to have misplaced the power resistors at this point in time...) This was a while back. The price of the drivers has gone up heaps, last time I looked :o
I have another set but not in use -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66943)
These were intended for a small HT (obviously) and to have a tweeter put on top, which is why the driver is near the top of the cabinet.
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Thanks - those are really cool looking pieces, nice woodworking.
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The Jordan 92/92S drivers have been around for decades. They use an aluminum foil cone, designed to flex so that the larger outside portion of the cone handle bass notes. Both the efficiency and frequency range are overstated from the manufacturer, but they've been used in everything from open baffles to sealed to ported to transmission line cabinets. And as JohnR mentioned, prices have gone up substantially (last I recall, about $150 each).
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Funny, I don't think of myself as a single-driver kind of guy... but then I realized that is what I listen to most of the time! :duh:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66942)
BTW - the "woofer" is actually a passive radiator ;)
What are the dimensions of the enclosure and what are you using for the PR here?