[pinkfloyd4ever]

Hi all! I'm looking to audition some high efficiency budget floor standers locally. I'll be using these in a medium room with 25WPC DIY Pass/FirstWatt clones and also with tubes (a Fisher 500c [28wpc] at first, but I'm also not ruling out a DIY SET amp in the future). I also was lucky enough to win one of the Amp Camp Amp Mini kits this past weekend through Burning Amp fest. For those who aren't familiar, that one's only 5 WPC. Hence the need for high efficiency.

I need something that sounds great at low and medium volumes, as I almost never listen very loud.  It's rare that I listen with peaks above the low 80s, and never higher than 90db. I also would prefer something front ported, as I'm tight on space, particularly in the depth dimension. I don't want something that could be perceived as boring, but also don't want anything excessively bright/fatiguing. I also don't want anything super bass heavy. Too much bass gives me listening fatigue and/or headaches.  Beyond that I haven't heard enough speakers to say for sure what type of sound I like, but I do like my Sony SS-CS3, and I do love the sound of my fun and engaging sound of my Grado headphones. Price needs to be in the $600-$800 range.


I am open to buying used as long as the speakers are in good condition and haven't been in a house with cats (wife is allergic). Open box or refurbished is fine too.

So all of those stipulations coupled with way too much research leads me to believe that I should audition some Tektons, specifically the Mini Lore or Lore Reference.

Does anyone in St. Louis have a pair of either of these speakers or know someone local who does and would be willing to let me hear them? Bonus points if you're planning to upgrade in the next few months and would be willing to sell me your used Mini Lores or Lore References in nice condition for a decent price.


The one other option I've been considering which checks most of my boxes is the Klipsch RP-5000F (when it's on sale). Especially since I've been having so much fun listening to my Grado cans lately and googled "what speakers sound like Grado headphones"...and I found that the most common reply was Klipsch. My concern with the RP-5000F though has always been the big rear port plus the 14.5" depth, meaning I won't be able to position them any more than like 6" from the wall. However, Cheap Audio Man recently reviewed the larger RP-6000F and said the bass was good even 6" from the wall...so maybe they're worth a shot. I was hoping to find them on display in a Best Buy Magnolia, but neither the Brentwood nor Chesterfield locations have any of the Reference Premiere series on display. Anyone happen to know if any of the other local Best Buys have a Klipsch RP floorstander on display? Or have a pair yourself I could audition?


Also on my radar (though maybe less ideal due to their lower efficiencies and rear ports on some) are Q Acoustics 3050i, Triangle BR08, Heco Aurora 700, Monitor Audio Bronze 5 (the previous generation). I've also thought about the GoldenEar Triton 7. I know it's only 89dB/w, but the manufacturer's recommended amp wattage is as little as 10w. Any thoughts on any of those, or anyone have a pair they're willing to let me hear?

Other thoughts or ideas?

[Mitsuman]

I have some 2005 vintage Klipsch RF-25's that you can listen to. They were in a main system until I recently found a pair of RF-35's that I replaced them with. I bought them new, and they've been well cared for and look and sound new. Just throwing it out there.

https://www.klipsch.com/products/rf-25-floorstanding-speaker

[vinyldavid]

After spending 20 years listening to what people recommended and did online, looking at what others have done, I’ve learned: I disagree with most people, and the compromises I’m willing to make to make piece X gear work are different than others.

Assuming that you want to go with a certain speaker design, brand, type, or model without listening first is often misguided.

I have many options to recommend in the $600-$800 range, but they’re likely not happy with just 25wpc, much less 8.  Of course, I as an internet denizen making recommendations violates my above advice, but, it’s wise to keep an open mind, and understand that speakers (particularly higher efficiency) and electronics with distinct sonic characters often start to get annoying over time.

[pinkfloyd4ever]

David, just out of curiosity, what would you pick in that price range? And how do your preferences usually differ from most people?

I started with a list of about a dozen well-reviewed speakers in my price range and narrowed it down with the limitations of my space and amp wattage since I've had my mind set on building some low wattage DIY class A amps. Most of those amps are 25 wpc, there's one that will do more like 40 wpc. Still not a ton of power.  I've bought PCBs but no components, transformers, or chassis, so I guess it's not too late to switch to a higher wattage class AB design. I'd rather stick with Pass / FW designs if possible, but ultimately I guess I need to be happy with my speakers first and foremost.

It's tough to find a place to listen much in this price range, particularly in today's world. If there was an in-person audio show locally, I'd definitely go. But in person shows may be a thing of the past, and of course they haven't happened at all in the past ~20 months for good reason. I've gone to every local GAS get together since about 2017 that I've been able to make, but given that the past 2 years have been a bust and the gatherings I've been to were all at only 2 different houses, I still haven't been able to hear much that's in my price range.

No local dealer that I know of has any of the speakers on my list on display, and even if they did it's going to be a very different room and very different electronics than mine.  So as far as I can tell the only option is really to order what I think are my top 2, maybe 3, choices from somewhere with a good return policy and let my ears decide. 

Any better ideas on how to listen to more speakers in my price range?

[Mr Peabody]

Sometimes Zu Audio has what they call Omen Dirty Weekend where you can pick some up on sale.

I personally would not say Grado sounds like Klipsch but I have not heard any of the more recent "I" series.

[JohnH12]

Depending on the size of the room 25 watts per channel is fine for most any speaker.  We just had our Iowa DIY speaker event and we filled a conference room with and average of 2 to 10 watts. You might get in to trouble with low wattage and bass transients, but Pass likely has solved that with a high damping factor.

We also demo'ed an older receiver and found it was over rated and required a recap. That said I'd recommend listening to a lot of speakers. Used speakers less than 10 years old can be a good deal. I think a 2-3 day demo period is best.  I don't listen to many commercial speakers but thought the ELAC (Andrew Jones designed) were neutral.

John

[vinyldavid]

David, just out of curiosity, what would you pick in that price range? And how do your preferences usually differ from most people?

I started with a list of about a dozen well-reviewed speakers in my price range and narrowed it down with the limitations of my space and amp wattage since I've had my mind set on building some low wattage DIY class A amps. Most of those amps are 25 wpc, there's one that will do more like 40 wpc. Still not a ton of power.  I've bought PCBs but no components, transformers, or chassis, so I guess it's not too late to switch to a higher wattage class AB design. I'd rather stick with Pass / FW designs if possible, but ultimately I guess I need to be happy with my speakers first and foremost.

It's tough to find a place to listen much in this price range, particularly in today's world. If there was an in-person audio show locally, I'd definitely go. But in person shows may be a thing of the past, and of course they haven't happened at all in the past ~20 months for good reason. I've gone to every local GAS get together since about 2017 that I've been able to make, but given that the past 2 years have been a bust and the gatherings I've been to were all at only 2 different houses, I still haven't been able to hear much that's in my price range.

No local dealer that I know of has any of the speakers on my list on display, and even if they did it's going to be a very different room and very different electronics than mine.  So as far as I can tell the only option is really to order what I think are my top 2, maybe 3, choices from somewhere with a good return policy and let my ears decide. 

Any better ideas on how to listen to more speakers in my price range?

Sure, but my responses aren't going to make me many friends.

I've heard a lot of higher efficiency speakers.  Most of them range from the enamel peeling to the Geneva convention-violating, in terms of sound.  Beautiful visually, yes.  Most of them have been sonic atrocities, with the exception of a full Edgarhorn system.  I also believe the use of a specifically "colored" amplifier (eg. SET, Cary Audio, most tubes, etc) to make a speaker tolerable is a poor idea.  There are stunning tube amplifiers, but I find most of them tend to mask the issues inherent in many speakers commonly paired with them.  Pass's designs are usually pretty neutral.

The Pass designs are slightly high distortion, but do sound very nice across a multitude of loads, and I have an Aleph 30 clone here which I like.  Living within the power limitations is often a necessity of enjoying these designs.  Class A is a wonderful thing, and if you can work with the power, space, and heat requirements, you will be rewarded with a lovely amplifier.  I myself am running a Krell KSA-100 on my Dynaudio Confidence C4s for a while.  It's a superb sounding room heater.

My last horn loaded pair of speakers I ran with the Aleph 30 were ElectroVoice Sentry IIIs, which are typically $1600+ per pair, and have to be recapped and subwoofers added, but the sound is oh so wonderful.  Most higher sensitivity speakers, including large ones, require additional subwoofers to deliver the bass response i desire out of a system, but others may not demand pipe organ depths of bass.

For the $800 and under bracket, I would look at trying to snag some Tannoy System 10DMT or System 1000 or System 1200 (if you're lucky....) speakers.   They can sometimes be found for around $800, and are designed to be neutral recording studio monitors, which are subjectively just a touch warm, but in a way that still communicates musical detail without being fatiguing.  I have System 12DMTs and just love them-I previously had custom 3833gg based coaxes that I regret selling every day, despite having no actual use for them.  Another option would be the ElectroVoice Sentry 500, but those are harder to to come by than the Tannoys (and the Tannoy 10" are reasonably shippable)!

Many reviewers (and audiophiles) are just plain deaf, or refuse to give bad reviews on principle (Steve Guttenberg, for example, thinks everything sounds great, wheras I want to know how something deviates from strict neutral sound reproduction).  There is also usually implicit advertising bias, and People That Should Not Be Pissed Off who are often larger than life figures who think that their one way is the one right way.  I've heard truly great speakers in every category but full range, dipole, and open baffle (sealed, ported, direct radiator, planar, ribbon, horn loaded), but my favorites have historically been soft dome direct radiator speakers. 

Listening to speakers is an intensely personal and difficult thing to do outside one's home, because everyone's room and electronics are different.  Repeated listenings over years in the same room can provide meaningful insights, but one good experience rarely leads to a successful purchase.  Some speakers, though, are unforgivable, and make themselves known immediately.  Having a reference set of test tracks you know intimately can also help.  Traditional examples are Trans-Island Skyway by Donald Fagen, Get Lucky by Daft Punk, Sylvia Hotel by Cheryl Wheeler, The Look of Love by Diana Krall, and I also use the mighty Agnus Dei from the Rutter: Requiem conducted by Stephen Cleobury and the City of London Sinfonia, It's Anybody's Spring by Seth MacFarlane, 03' Bonnie & Clyde by Jay-Z and Beyonce, Wild Wild West by Will Smith and Dru Hlll (if you can hear the synths not being completely together, you have a well resolving system), I Won't Give Up by Jason Mraz, bad guy by Billie Eilish, The Way You Move by Outkast, Biking is Better by Wintergatan, Nightshift by the Commodores, The Dark Side of the Sun by Modeselektor, and The Bottle, First Meeting from the Charles Gerhardt reading of Miklos Rozsa's score.

Once it's safer, I hope to host a gathering here at my place, and I can demonstrate some of these philosophies (and what I consider excellent sound) in person.

So, I guess I don't have an idea of how to listen to more speakers, short of finding locals with the devices you want and bugging them, but those are my thoughts on paying attention to reviewers and the high efficiency speaker world in general.  I've always said that education in anything is expensive, audio is no exception. I've played catch and release with at least 100 pairs of speakers in my lifetime, and comparatively few have stayed for more than a couple months.

[BPT]

Check-out Polk LSiM703.
Chris H.

[Mr Peabody]

Wylie has Golden Ear, some models on display and I think now he prefers you take them for a listen in your home.  Not sure which models he has, 314-692-2230.

With planning to use SET I'd exhaust your high efficiency options first.

[Mitsuman]

I'm more than happy to let you come listen and even borrow the RF-25's that I have. If you haven't heard them with tube amplification you will be surprised. At 97db efficiency, you can drive them with 5 watts very easily. I'd like them to go to a good home, and you won't need to spend much if you wanted them.

[Tyson]

I'd do the Gedlee Abbey's, there's some for sale used, here on AC:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=178771.0

[kentj1948]

Have you considered any of the Zu speakers?  The Dirty Weekend sells for $1199 new.  They are 97dB efficient. 

Here is the link:

 https://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/omen-dirty-weekend-ii

[pinkfloyd4ever]

Thanks for the thoughts, insights, and ideas everyone. I do have a standard list of good audition tracks I use for headphones that should work equally as well for speakers David. Get Lucky is on there, so is a (different) Billie Eilish track.

I did consider the Polk LSiM703 a while ago, but they are bookshelf speakers, and require a lot of power from what I've read. I really need floorstanders with a relatively small footprint for my situation though.

The Gedlees appear to be standmount as well, and are more than double my budget...for 2 pairs of speakers, not including shipping. Not sure what I'd do with 2 pair; I definitely don't need more unused audio gear sitting around here. I'm also not interested in a DIY speaker...yet. I do want to build a nice DIY kit speaker someday, but right now I have too many DIY projects in the queue, and not enough time.

Thanks for the offer on the RF-25s, Mitsuman. I may contact you about coming to give them a listen to get an idea of the Klipsch sound, but I don't know if I'm interested in purchasing that model. I guess I can't say for sure without listening though.

I have definitely considered the Zu Omen DWs, but they're priced quite a bit over my budget, especially once you add shipping charges, and they're a little bigger (in footprint) than I'd prefer for my space. If I saw a good deal on a used pair locally I'd still check them out though.

[genjamon]

Maybe I missed it, but what are your room dimensions, which wall would the speakers be on, and where is the listening position or positions? If the room is small enough, I’d highly recommend looking at the Ohm MicroWalsh options. I’ve heard them sound superb in a small room with 20 watts of SET.

[pinkfloyd4ever]

It's about 12' x 25'. See image below.




I did consider the Ohm Walsh 1000s and 2000s. They'd probably be ideal for my cramped room. I was concerned about powering them with only 25-30w, but it sounds like maybe they'd be ok.  But unfortunately even the Microwalsh Shorts are more than 2x over budget with shipping.

I do have a hifishark alert set for them in case a good deal on a used pair comes up locally, same with the Zu DWs.

[genjamon]

While the distances between the speakers and listening position aren't that huge, that room isn't what I would consider "small."  That said, with the couch up against rear wall, you'll get pretty decent room boundary reinforcement in the bass frequencies.  Hard to say whether small Ohms would work in that space.  I have heard the Zu ODW in a similar size and shape of space, and they sounded great.  But I also suspect the GR Research NX-Studios would be an excellent fit in that space.  And they are designed with positioning close to the wall in mind.  If looks aren't super important, or if you have good DIY woodworking skills, or a cheap source of quality labor from a friend or family, the kits and flat packs might be worth considering.  Though I think they would still exceed your budget by a fair amount. 

[JohnH12]

Lots of hard surfaces and nearby reflection objects in that room.  In home demo would be best.

[nlitworld]

I have a pair of RP5000F in a small room (spare bedroom of 11x14 listening along the long wall) and they can work very well. I pulled them out from the wall about a foot, partially plugged the port in the rear, crossed over with a sub at 80hz, a little eq on the receiver to balance everything but not more than 2dB, and had a decent toe in to just behind the listening position. This had a very nice and controlled response when I listened with the door left open but would create a peak at 65hz with the door closed. My point though is these do sound really decent for an entry price point, but you have to fiddle with placement and setup to get them to sound their best. For your listening levels and preferences though, it should be easy to get them sounding nice, and 25w is WAY more than enough power on them.

That said, mine are for sale because I'm building the GR Research NX-Studios that genjamon was recommending and from what I hear they should blow the pants off anything else I could fit in my small space.

[genjamon]

Hmmm:  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=178378.new;topicseen#new

One more note from me on your original request.  I've owned the original Tekton Lore since 2010 and thoroughly updated its crossover and wiring back in 2013.  I also auditioned the Lore Reference when it first came out.  My brother also bought the Mini Lore after he heard the Lore in my system back in 2012.  I heard the Mini Lore in his home on a couple occasions, powered by a Peachtree Nova I believe.  But it was in a casual living room environment, and he is not an audiophile, so had not set them up in a proper positioning with a sweet spot or anything. 

Since I'm not sure your listening habits, listening experience with different audiophile systems to have any particular tastes/preferences, and expectations for level of refinement of sound, it's hard for me to calibrate my impressions to your goals.  But given the fact you have some pretty nice amplification, my sense is you have pretty solid hopes and expectations from an audiophile perspective. 

Given all of that, the Mini Lore is indeed a bargain at its price point in my opinion.  But it is not an audiophile-grade sound.  It will be pleasing and generally balanced and will scale nicely for the size.  And is probably a decent fit with your listening space from a size and scale perspective.  But it will not be the most resolving speaker.  Then again, at your chosen price point, there are very few speakers that could compete with it. 

But Lore will have a bigger and bolder sound, will go deeper in the bass, and you should be able to find it used around your desired price.  If you were to advertise in US Audio Mart or even potentially here on AC with a WTB ad, you might get some takers at your price point and near enough to avoid the need to ship.  And you can upgrade the crossovers to make it much more resolving and refined of a sound.  Stock, the Lore is a bit rough and ragged, but can be a very fun speaker.  On the flipside, I have found it does need a bit of space from walls/corners to keep the bass controlled.  If it's too close, the bass has been boomy in my experience.  And with your seating position up against a wall, the bass might be too much for that space from the Lore.

I also have owned the Zu ODW since 2018.  It's more refined than the Lore, but has less bass, and due to the bottom porting, is more versatile in terms of placement than the Lore.  And with only a single smallish capacitor to upgrade, the upgrade options for this "crossover" are endless and affordable.  I have mine upgraded with Miflex copper caps bypassed with Duelund silver bypass caps.  To my ears, this is much more refined than even the Clarity cap upgrade offered by Zu, which I also tried.  But the ODW are harder to find used, and they'd be beyond your budget in any case. 

[vinyldavid]

If you care to take a chance on my recommendation, you may be able to offer and get these for $800-$900 shipped.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tannoy-System-10-DMT-II-10-Coaxial-Studio-Monitor-Pair-/393640045530?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0