[ajzepp]

Seems like I recently heard for the second or third time the idea of having a subwoofer in every corner of the room. The first time I heard it was in a professional review that was specifically about the Force. The reviewer says that he heard on the forums that it was "all the rage" to do something like this.

I was curious if Mike or anyone else has any experience with this. What would be the advantages of three or four smaller subs vs. a larger one?

[tomagardner]

I recall seeing a study that showed that having 4 subs in the middle of each wall was the best?

[zybar]

Here you go:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

George

[ajzepp]

Thanks, Zybar! 

[ohenry]

A while back, John Casler wrote about experimenting with four subs:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=15708.0

It may be worth a look.  Have fun... 

[ajzepp]

Thanks, Henry....I'd never seen that thread!

I'm about to re-do the arrangement of my room, and I think I'll be able to have some options for multiple subwoofers. I'm really interested in how to make this work, so thanks for the info 

[Mike Dzurko]

Excellent reference George. I'll have more tomorrow . . .

[MaxCast]

Yes George, I was looking for that page earlier but the pdf wouldn't load.
I just read through it again... a good refresher.
Thanks for the link.

[Mike Dzurko]

The Harmon white paper is a classic and one I've read carefully a number of times. It fits w/ some of our experimental data of about 15 years ago when we were trying as many as six subs placed around the room and attempting to correlate MLSSA measurements and listening tests. Two important differences between our experiments and the Harmon work. They were doing their modeling and measuring with all mono bass, and we did most of our work with stereo bass.  And, in the Harmon work they were utilizing EQ and we did not.
 
There are a couple reasonable conclusions as far as a single sub vs. multiple subs:

1) A single sub, in optimal placement, will yield the greatest overall extension and give the most bang for the buck. This is the most cost effective way to go for great HT.  For example, four Force XL will cost more than a single Maestro XL yet to equal the output of a single Maestro XL you'd need six of the mighty mini Force XLs.
 
2) If the ultimate music quality is the priority, particularly over a larger listening area, multiple subs have some real advantages. I've always felt that a stereo pair of subs is a gold standard for musical reproduction.

3) Many folks have little flexibility regarding placement and or the real estate to allow for a sub or multiple subs. Again, I’d rather have one quality sub placed right than multiple subs placed wherever.

I recommend making choices according to specific requirements. First, I'd much rather own one great sounding sub than a room full of lesser subs, (not size or output, but sound quality, all subs do NOT sound the same).  If you have the flexibility and budget, definitely consider moving up to stereo subs or even four subs.

[ajzepp]

Mike, thanks for that feedback...that helps a lot!

I've been reorganizing my priorities with regard to my HT room a lot over the past 60 days. I have my bass traps in-house, I just gave in and finally bought a center speaker (I've been a phantom guy for many years ), and now I think I want to upgrade my bass before messing with my gear.

What are your thoughts on running a stereo pair of either Forces or Titans with the mains and running L/R full-range, and then having a Titan placed in back of the room for strictly the LFE channel? This would allow me to have the dual subs already calibrated for when I'm playing music, while also having a dedicated and very capable subwoofer for the LFE (this is for a room that is approx 2100cf).

Or I could just go with a Maestro and be done with it (?)

[Mike Dzurko]

How low do you think your mains go comfortably?

[ajzepp]

Hmmm...they're rated +/-3db to 36hz, and they do have a nice low end, but I wouldn't mind having another octave on the bottom. I just see all these behemoth subwoofers coming out now, and it really makes me want to go in the other direction even more...I want some decent extension, but what I want even more is articulation and refinement...and those are the areas where praise is heaped upon them in most of the ACI reviews I've read. If a single Titan or Maestro gets me where I want to be, that's great. If it's multiple subs, I'll find a way to adjust the budget accordingly. But I'm pretty sure I want an ACI 

Besides, I've recently become a big fan of GIK Acoustics, and Glenn really gave you (Mike) a glowing recommendation.

[bpape]

Hmmm...they're rated +/-3db to 36hz, and they do have a nice low end, but I wouldn't mind having another octave on the bottom. I just see all these behemoth subwoofers coming out now, and it really makes me want to go in the other direction even more...I want some decent extension, but what I want even more is articulation and refinement...and those are the areas where praise is heaped upon them in most of the ACI reviews I've read. If a single Titan or Maestro gets me where I want to be, that's great. If it's multiple subs, I'll find a way to adjust the budget accordingly. But I'm pretty sure I want an ACI 

That's exactly the kind of thing a nice quick sub like the ACI will give you.  You can keep the mains bass down to say 50Hz and then bring in the sub from there.  Not only is it a driver/box specifically designed for the last 2-3 octaves, but it will also take the load off of your main speakers allowing the mid and upper bass  to be more articulate.  Also takes a load off the main amplifier so you have more headroom to play with if you're going to use an active xover.

Bryan

[Mike Dzurko]

Hmmm...they're rated +/-3db to 36hz, and they do have a nice low end, but I wouldn't mind having another octave on the bottom. I just see all these behemoth subwoofers coming out now, and it really makes me want to go in the other direction even more...I want some decent extension, but what I want even more is articulation and refinement...and those are the areas where praise is heaped upon them in most of the ACI reviews I've read. If a single Titan or Maestro gets me where I want to be, that's great. If it's multiple subs, I'll find a way to adjust the budget accordingly. But I'm pretty sure I want an ACI 

Besides, I've recently become a big fan of GIK Acoustics, and Glenn really gave you (Mike) a glowing recommendation.

Glenn and Bryan are great guys who really knows how to listen. . .  and treat a room properly. I've really enjoyed doing the last couple RMAFs with Glenn and Bryan taking care of the room treatment and doing a lot of the setup as well.

What I recommend for you is a pair of Force XLs to setup as you describe. Start with this, grab the Holiday Special price and you're starting your subwoofer journey. Get those babies dialed in and you will be grinning from ear to ear at the improvement to your overall experience.  And then add a Titan XL setup for doing the grunt work in HT mode.   Rock n' Roll!

[ajzepp]

I dig it    Thanks guys!

I've really been stressing over what gear (i.e. electronics)  to focus on lately, so finishing up room treatments and upgrading my subwoofers is a lot less stressful, lol. My front stage is really going to be kicking ass soon

What do you guys recommend for an external crossover?

[bpape]

http://www.marchandelec.com/xovers.html

Bryan

[Mike Dzurko]

Bryan is right, Marchand makes good crossovers. You only need high-pass as you can use the low pass filters in the subs.

[ajzepp]

Wow, and I even grew up right outside of where Marchand is located...very cool!

Thanks again!