MQA - Chapter 11

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newzooreview

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #20 on: 10 Apr 2023, 12:51 am »
Is somebody wronging the MQA folks?

Or do you mean to sit in judgment of those that see it to be fair and fitting that their behavior may be justly rewarded?

Judge away.

JakeJ

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #21 on: 10 Apr 2023, 01:25 am »

I stand by what I said.  And what is it that they say, two wrongs does not make a right.


Wow!  Just wow!  :scratch: :shake: :sad:

firedog

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #22 on: 10 Apr 2023, 06:35 am »
According to MQA they have a buyer, so they will likely keep going. Maybe it won't work out and their lossy DRM scheme will disappear. That would be good news.

https://www.whathifi.com/news/mqa-is-going-into-administration

From the article:
It means that they are taking on administrators so they can sell assets. Probably going to try to sell the SCL6 IP on it's own.
The MQA part may  survive if someone buys it on the cheap and is satisfied with very small returns. It's pretty clear it's failed commercially and doesn't have a future. My guess is that it will survive but in reality become a legacy product as manufacturers stop supporting it.

Luxmancl38

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Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #23 on: 10 Apr 2023, 11:48 am »
Wasn't MQA originally developed by Meridian?? Do they still have a stake in the company?

rbbert

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #24 on: 10 Apr 2023, 02:07 pm »
Good riddance.  Simply a streaming version of HDCD, which also died because it was useless.

Really not similar at all, except that technology has passed HDCD by; however, when it was introduced in 1995 it offered true sonic benefits over what else was available, and this continued to be true until SACD and DVD-A.  That was never true for MQA, which was technologically and commercially obsolete at its introduction, surviving only due to aggressive marketing, which most people have finally seen through.

rbbert

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #25 on: 10 Apr 2023, 02:14 pm »
Wasn't MQA originally developed by Meridian?? Do they still have a stake in the company?

MQA was spun off from Meridian several years ago.  I don't know if it still has a stake in MQA, but it does hold some of MQA's debts and is probably still owed money from MQA (which I suspect will end up being written off)

zeeman

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Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #26 on: 10 Apr 2023, 04:49 pm »
Really not similar at all, except that technology has passed HDCD by; however, when it was introduced in 1995 it offered true sonic benefits over what else was available, and this continued to be true until SACD and DVD-A.  That was never true for MQA, which was technologically and commercially obsolete at its introduction, surviving only due to aggressive marketing, which most people have finally seen through.

HDCD never offered any benefits, as confirmed by multiple well publicized double blind listening scenarios undertaken by several major organizations.  It was a proprietary encode/decode system designed to provide royalties for Pacific Microsonics (later purchased then killed by Microsoft), just like MQA.  While claiming to offer a 20 bit equivalent, there was ultimately no performance advantage over regular and properly mastered Redbook CD format.

rbbert

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #27 on: 10 Apr 2023, 07:52 pm »
HDCD never offered any benefits, as confirmed by multiple well publicized double blind listening scenarios undertaken by several major organizations.  It was a proprietary encode/decode system designed to provide royalties for Pacific Microsonics (later purchased then killed by Microsoft), just like MQA.  While claiming to offer a 20 bit equivalent, there was ultimately no performance advantage over regular and properly mastered Redbook CD format.

This just goes to show that most listeners aren't very sensitive to decreased dynamic range, or else the "HDCDs" used for these tests did not actually encode any HDCD functions.*  The Peak Extend function of HDCD potentially allowed musical peaks to be up to 6 dB louder decoded than undecoded, and if that much peak extension was used the encoded version played back without decoding has obvious distortion compared to the decoded version.  Because of that many HDCD albums only utilized 2-3 dB of peak compression, which avoided most of the distortion when not decoded but still allowed that much increase in dynamic range, easily audible. 

*Interestingly enough, most HDCD albums didn't use the Peak Extend function at all; they were mastered on the Pacific Microsonics DAW (perhaps the best-sounding DAW at its introduction and still excellent sounding in its latest incarnation), but only used the transient filters which do not need decoding.

Your posts illustrate parts of the general misunderstanding of HDCD, both in how it functions and how it was typically used.  To summarize, it is/was nothing like MQA - not lossy for one thing, and no proprietary algorithms; it is easy to decode an HDCD disc using hdcd.exe, a freely available program.

zeeman

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Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #28 on: 11 Apr 2023, 03:42 pm »
This just goes to show that most listeners aren't very sensitive to decreased dynamic range, or else the "HDCDs" used for these tests did not actually encode any HDCD functions.*  The Peak Extend function of HDCD potentially allowed musical peaks to be up to 6 dB louder decoded than undecoded, and if that much peak extension was used the encoded version played back without decoding has obvious distortion compared to the decoded version.  Because of that many HDCD albums only utilized 2-3 dB of peak compression, which avoided most of the distortion when not decoded but still allowed that much increase in dynamic range, easily audible. 

*Interestingly enough, most HDCD albums didn't use the Peak Extend function at all; they were mastered on the Pacific Microsonics DAW (perhaps the best-sounding DAW at its introduction and still excellent sounding in its latest incarnation), but only used the transient filters which do not need decoding.

Your posts illustrate parts of the general misunderstanding of HDCD, both in how it functions and how it was typically used.  To summarize, it is/was nothing like MQA - not lossy for one thing, and no proprietary algorithms; it is easy to decode an HDCD disc using hdcd.exe, a freely available program.

I didn't say HDCD was lossy, merely that it offered no audible benefit, as per multiple industry double blind tests.  You failed to actually dispute my post, BTW...

rbbert

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #29 on: 11 Apr 2023, 04:39 pm »
I didn't say HDCD was lossy, merely that it offered no audible benefit, as per multiple industry double blind tests.  You failed to actually dispute my post, BTW...

If those tests were done with (for example) a Reference Recordings HDCD, a couple of which did use the entire 6 dB of Peak Extend, and listeners heard no difference then there was something wrong with the tests, because I can assure you these CD's sound entirely different decoded or undecoded (in fact, undecoded they actually sound bad, with audible distortion on peaks).  Even with only 2-3 dB of Peak Extend there are obvious differences.  The effects of Low Level Expansion are much more subtle and can easily be missed.

OTOH, if the tests were done with a CD labelled "HDCD" but which did not use HDCD features (true for most CD's labelled "HDCD") then of course there is no difference.

I am unaware of any "industry tests" showing no difference; do you have links?  Until true hi-res digital became commercially available any number of noted recording engineers used HDCD due to its easily audible benefits over straight CD (Kevin Gray, Steve Hoffman, Joe Gastwirt, Keith Johnson, Jeffrey Norman, etc)

gbaby

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Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #30 on: 11 Apr 2023, 06:58 pm »
Years ago James Tanner tried to school us that all these high sampling rates and the like were more or less a waste and that PCM 44.1 16 was sufficient for modern music. I have all the codec all the way to DSD. I also have vinyl with no sampling rate. My conclusion is James was correct. All this other stuff including MQA is snake oil.

rbbert

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #31 on: 11 Apr 2023, 07:21 pm »
Years ago James Tanner tried to school us that all these high sampling rates and the like were more or less a waste and that PCM 44.1 16 was sufficient for modern music. I have all the codec all the way to DSD. I also have vinyl with no sampling rate. My conclusion is James was correct. All this other stuff including MQA is snake oil.
Troll?  Bryston DACs decode lossless, non-proprietary formats; MQA is not one of these. 

rbbert

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #32 on: 11 Apr 2023, 07:33 pm »
FWIW, a representative of Tidal has posted on Reddit that Tidal will be adding hi-res FLACs to their library

gbaby

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Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #33 on: 11 Apr 2023, 08:07 pm »
Troll?  Bryston DACs decode lossless, non-proprietary formats; MQA is not one of these.

Troll? Perhaps you have a reading comprehension problem as you completely missed the point.  :lol:

rbbert

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #34 on: 11 Apr 2023, 09:06 pm »
Troll? Perhaps you have a reading comprehension problem as you completely missed the point.  :lol:

You really think Bryston offers DACs that accept hi-res PCM and DSD but doesn't think those sound better than 16/44.1?  The main reason it didn't sign on with MQA is that it didn't think it sounded better.

James Tanner

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Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #35 on: 11 Apr 2023, 10:22 pm »
My 'personal' position is in Mastering 96/24 is as far as we need to go.
In Playback 44.1/16 is as far as we need to go. :thumb:

james

Letitroll98

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Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #36 on: 12 Apr 2023, 09:35 am »
From Sound and Vision
"Today, Tidal revealed on Reddit that HiFi Plus subscribers will soon have a new streaming option: high-resolution FLAC. This announcement follows closely behind MQA's entry into "administration," the British equivalent of Chapter 11 bankruptcy. This development suggests financial difficulties for MQA and raises questions about its future. Tidal currently uses MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) technology for its hi-res streaming.
Until there's more information available, one can only speculate what are the ramifications of this announcement. But it is possible Tidal may be cautiously shifting to the non-proprietary FLAC format—which requires no specialized hardware for decoding—to hedge its bets with MQA. Will Tidal abandon MQA completely? Will it buy the underlying technology if the company is sold in pieces? Only time will tell!"

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/tidal-adopting-hi-res-flac-hifi-plus-subscribers

rbbert

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #37 on: 12 Apr 2023, 06:24 pm »
My 'personal' position is in Mastering 96/24 is as far as we need to go.
In Playback 44.1/16 is as far as we need to go. :thumb:

james
In blind tests few listeners are able to distinguish AAC/MP4 320k from 16/44.1.  OTOH, in blind tests a few listeners are able to distinguish 24/88.2 and 24/96 from 16/44.1.
So perhaps 320k AAC is best for listening?

James Tanner

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Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #38 on: 12 Apr 2023, 06:54 pm »
I think the specifications for ultimate accuracy of the waveform/noise floor based on the human ear/brain interface supports the 96/24 and 44.1/16 concept as far as I can tell.

james

rbbert

Re: MQA - Chapter 11
« Reply #39 on: 12 Apr 2023, 07:55 pm »
I think the specifications for ultimate accuracy of the waveform/noise floor based on the human ear/brain interface supports the 96/24 and 44.1/16 concept as far as I can tell.

james

There are 2 different categories of opinion here.  As far as 16/44.1 being "adequate" based on what we know about hearing, this is correct assuming that 16/44.1 is perfectly implemented, which may or not (probably not) be happening at present.  It also assumes that the recording is done at a much higher bit-rate to avoid filtering artifacts that fall into the audible frequency range; I'm not sure what leads to the conclusion that recording and mastering at 24/96 will avoid all filtering artifacts.

One reasonable hypothesis for the audible difference between 16/44.1 and higher bit-rate PCM audio (demonstrated in the published meta-analysis of hi-res listening tests) is that the approximations used to reconstruct an analog signal from the digital data will be less audible at higher bit-rates.