AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: drummermitchell on 5 Sep 2008, 03:32 pm
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Hi,looking to see if there are any BDA-1 owners out there that have had a chance to
give their impressions of the BDA-1. :drool:
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REad through the Bryston Circle a few peeps have posted. Best and possibly last DAC I will own. Lots of inputs, plus remote control. Sound is awesome!
Mike
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hi, mcullinan
how much did you pay for the remote?
thanx,
alex.
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hi, mcullinan
how much did you pay for the remote?
thanx,
alex.
Since James Tanner is so generous, I actually asked him for the HEx codes, which is like the remote programming language. I gave them to logitech and they added them into their database. So I use a Harmony One Universal Remote, which btw is fantastic! I was up to 7 remotes I think... and they couldnt all fit on the arm of my chair, plus it was rediculous. Now I have 1 remote. The codes should be up soon. They had me test them out and they work fine!
Mike :D
btw I dont think the Bryston remote is available yet. Id check with James.
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ok. now i understand. i first thought you were the first lucky one who owns the bda-1's remote.
so we just have to wait a bit... :green:
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I guess now that the Summer is over, I'll have to look at maybe getting a BDA-1 (I don't listen to the system much in the Summer).
Just have to weigh it with other options, I guess :wink:
Keith
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Memo: To all Bryston Customers
Subject: Customer Feedback on Bryston BDA-1
Please see below comments posted by a customer on ‘Computer Audiophile Magazine’ regarding the new Bryston BDA-1 External DAC
“HOLY-MOTHER-OF-(whatever)-GOD -(you believe in)-!
Well, got the BDA-1 in today.. and up and running...First things first, the up-sampling should be on at all times... it absolutely brings more depth and slam to the music.
Like all things Bryston, the sound is typically Bryston. Polite, to the point and oh by the way, we do LOUD PROFESSIONAL SOUND RECORDING STUDIO'S!
This DAC has brought back a sense of composed excitement to the music. It has wonderful layers that one can isolate but they never sound separate, like a well made cake, you cannot taste the egg, but you know it's there. The bass is just... BIG!... without any one note boom... just detailed and BIG! Worth ever penny!
Have not tested the USB input and doubt I will any time soon. Both the COAX and Optical input's sound great... up-sampled.
BIG SOUND!
Drew.”
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Does the BDA-1 have the 20 year warranty?
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Hi Konut
Bryston's 20 year warranty only applies to analog circuits (like their amplifiers) but digital circuits are warranted for 5 years. This was taken from their website (Home page, Warranty Info):
"Bryston Digital circuits and cables are warranted for five years from the original date of manufacture. The warranty includes parts and labour."
Hope this helps!
Best Regards
Dennis
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Does the BDA-1 have the 20 year warranty?
Hi,
Yes Dennis is correct: 20 years on analog products, 5 years on digital products and 3 years on products with moving parts (CD Player).
We will probably extend the warranty on the digital products as we move forward given what appears to be excellent reliability so far.
james
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Thanks for the quick reply. The BDA-1 is the only DAC that has piqued my interest. It is not surprising that it is the first DAC that seems to have gotten EVERYTHING right given Brystons' reputation and support for its' products. I notice the BCD-1 has volume control on the remote. Will the BDA-1 have the same feature? And if so, does it work in the digital or analogue domain?
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Thanks for the quick reply. The BDA-1 is the only DAC that has piqued my interest. It is not surprising that it is the first DAC that seems to have gotten EVERYTHING right given Brystons' reputation and support for its' products. I notice the BCD-1 has volume control on the remote. Will the BDA-1 have the same feature? And if so, does it work in the digital or analogue domain?
Hi konut,
The CD Player does NOT have a volume control out. The CD remote can be used with our preamps and integrated amps so the volume control buttons on the remote are for them.
We are looking at Digital volume control - which can easily be implemented on the BDA-1 remote or BCD-1 - but we are concerned with loss of resolution. Implementing an analog control is more of a re-engineering issue.
james
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Hi James,
Two questions: 1) What is the current lead time on a BDA-1, and 2) Does the USB input convert to SPDIF?
Thanks
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Hi James,
Two questions: 1) What is the current lead time on a BDA-1, and 2) Does the USB input convert to SPDIF?
Thanks
Hi Crimson,
About 10 days from order. No the USB input is not converted to SPDIF it is I2S in.
james
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Hi,looking to see if there are any BDA-1 owners out there that have had a chance to
give their impressions of the BDA-1. :drool:
I'll give my impressions :D. Previously I was using the SP1.7 internal DAC for stereo. Now I have the BDA-1 with the SP1.7 in bypass mode.
1. The overall soundstage, placement and localization of instruments is more accurate than before. Space between instruments is improved.
2. Detail and resolution is improved. For example on certain musical passages I can now hear individual instruments in a harmony, instead of just the overall blended sound.
3. And last but not least - bass is improved. 8). Hard to describe but bass is just better - fuller and more extension to the very bottom notes.
Overall I'm totally happy.
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We are looking at Digital volume control - which can easily be implemented on the BDA-1 remote or BCD-1 - but we are concerned with loss of resolution.
james
This would be great! If you upsample to 24 bits(or more?) then that gives enough leeway for attenuation without losing resolution until levels low enough where it should be relatively benign audibly. This would allow those of us with minimalistic tendencies to consider the BDA-1 as a control center/preamp, thus increasing its value.
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Does anyone know if the BDA-1 available in a 19-inch rackmount version? The Bryston website shows a 19-inch version, but it's not rackmountable. In fact, I prefer the pre-C-series 1RU cosmetics à la BP-25.
(My BCD-1 is doing exemplary duty on an ordinary audio stand, but I'd want to be able to rackmount the BDA-1.)
TIA,
Joel.
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Does anyone know if the BDA-1 available in a 19-inch rackmount version? The Bryston website shows a 19-inch version, but it's not rackmountable. In fact, I prefer the pre-C-series 1RU cosmetics à la BP-25.
(My BCD-1 is doing exemplary duty on an ordinary audio stand, but I'd want to be able to rackmount the BDA-1.)
TIA,
Joel.
Hi Joel,
There is no 19 inch rackmount faceplate version available yet. If you have to rackmount you can use the 17 inch facplate and a set of Rackmount ears (which we can supply)
james
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We are looking at Digital volume control - which can easily be implemented on the BDA-1 remote or BCD-1 - but we are concerned with loss of resolution.
james
This would be great! If you upsample to 24 bits(or more?) then that gives enough leeway for attenuation without losing resolution until levels low enough where it should be relatively benign audibly. This would allow those of us with minimalistic tendencies to consider the BDA-1 as a control center/preamp, thus increasing its value.
James, may I please second this idea. Having a volume control (digital or analog) on this DAC would be fantastic! :)
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Mr. Tanner, how quickly might we find out if the software volume control is a go or no-go decision?
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Mr. Tanner, how quickly might we find out if the software volume control is a go or no-go decision?
We are running tests now on what happens as you lower the volume digitally - so far there is always a loss of resolution (you use up bits). So we are going to see what reduction in volume is heard (not heard) in blind listening tests.
james
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Would this be a software upgrade to existing BDA-1 or a new model?
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[ We are running tests now on what happens as you lower the volume digitally - so far there is always a loss of resolution (you use up bits). So we are going to see what reduction in volume is heard (not heard) in blind listening tests.
james
It is my understanding, and I am by no means completely clear on this, that as the BDA-1 increases the bit depth on 16 bit material to 24 bit, that this allows volume control with the 8 extra bits with no reduction in resolution. Of course after that, the reduction in volume will result in loss of resolution. The critical thing though is, that if the gain staging is correct, by the time the volume has been reduced utilising the 8 extra bits, the volume is low enough so that the loss of resolution is not readily apparent. I will be anxiously awaiting the findings of your engineers.
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[ We are running tests now on what happens as you lower the volume digitally - so far there is always a loss of resolution (you use up bits). So we are going to see what reduction in volume is heard (not heard) in blind listening tests.
james
It is my understanding, and I am by no means completely clear on this, that as the BDA-1 increases the bit depth on 16 bit material to 24 bit, that this allows volume control with the 8 extra bits with no reduction in resolution. Of course after that, the reduction in volume will result in loss of resolution. The critical thing though is, that if the gain staging is correct, by the time the volume has been reduced utilising the 8 extra bits, the volume is low enough so that the loss of resolution is not readily apparent. I will be anxiously awaiting the findings of your engineers.
Hi Konut,
Yes I undestand it the same way so we are going to run some listening tests.
james
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Would this be a software upgrade to existing BDA-1 or a new model?
Hi,
Software upgrade if done in the digital mode.
james
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From: William
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 7:10 PM
To: James Tanner
Subject: BDA-1
Well now you have gone and done it. I thought the rest of my system was pretty decent until I got the BDA-1 and now I can’t listen to my other stuff anymore.
The BDA-1 is neutral, spacious, very good deep bass while still having tight and controlled bass, good soundstage, and very clean overall. I still hear a bit of grain at the very top, but I think that is from other components in my system at this point. It allows me to hear the differences in digital output from various components more than I have heard before. Its truthful without being overbearing but demands that you feed it a clear signal to get the best.
Thanks,
Bill
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I find the consistency of user feedback on the BDA-1 interesting. Bass, space and soundstage again and again.
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I would add exceptional inner detail in the highs which were covered up previously.
Mike
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I would add exceptional inner detail in the highs which were covered up previously.
Mike
Agreed. Things like "hmm I never noticed that 2nd violin in the background before" or "ah that's what she whispers right at the beginning". Pretty cool little machine 8).
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Perhaps this has been asked and answered elsewhere but I couldn't find it.
How does the BDA-1 stack up against the Bryston DAC card for the BP26 or the DAC in the BCD-1? Is it different technology or a very nice repackaging of the same DAC? If different (which I suspect it must be), how are the differences manifested - sonically?, functionally?
Any info is greatly appreciated.
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Perhaps this has been asked and answered elsewhere but I couldn't find it.
How does the BDA-1 stack up against the Bryston DAC card for the BP26 or the DAC in the BCD-1? Is it different technology or a very nice repackaging of the same DAC? If different (which I suspect it must be), how are the differences manifested - sonically?, functionally?
Any info is greatly appreciated.
Hi,
The DAC's in all the preamps and the CD Player as well as the BDA-1 external DAC are the same manufacture - Crystal. The BP26/BP6/B60/B100 use the Crystal 43122 DAC. The BCD-1 CD Player and the External BDA-1 DAC use the Crystal 4398 DAC.
As I have said before the quality of many of the different available DAC's we tested are excellent. The main difference in our digital products has much more to do with the discrete analog Class A circuits around the DAC's and the critical attention to power supply and grounding integrity throughout the circuitry.
james
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James, thanks for the quick response. So, would you expect a BCD-1 coupled with a BDA-1 to sound better/different than just a BCD-1 due to the details you've invested in all facets of the BDA-1?
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James, thanks for the quick response. So, would you expect a BCD-1 coupled with a BDA-1 to sound better/different than just a BCD-1 due to the details you've invested in all facets of the BDA-1?
Hi,
Good question!
I have been running BLIND tests over the past month with different experienced listeners in my home (I have 3 systems with exactly the same front end (BP26/BCD-1/BDA-1) and so far it has been a tough call. No one has been able to consistently tell which is which.
It will be interesting to get some input back from the field as more people use the CD Player with the External DAC combination. Absolute Sound Magazine is doing a comparison of different external DAC's on the market and they are using the Bryston CD Player as the reference against the other DAC's. I have sent them a BDA-1 as part of that test set up.
At this point I guess my advice would be to go with the CD Player if you perceive your most critical listening will be with red-book CD's and go with the BDA-1 External DAC if you think your future listening will involve a number of Hi-Res Digital sources.
james
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Mr. Tanner, how quickly might we find out if the software volume control is a go or no-go decision?
We are running tests now on what happens as you lower the volume digitally - so far there is always a loss of resolution (you use up bits). So we are going to see what reduction in volume is heard (not heard) in blind listening tests.
james
Hi James,
What are your thoughts on using a high-quality analog volume control, instead of a digital one? That would be my preference, but would require additional hardware instead of just a software upgrade. Perhaps offer a second model ("BDA-1V")? :?:
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Mr. Tanner, how quickly might we find out if the software volume control is a go or no-go decision?
We are running tests now on what happens as you lower the volume digitally - so far there is always a loss of resolution (you use up bits). So we are going to see what reduction in volume is heard (not heard) in blind listening tests.
james
Hi James,
What are your thoughts on using a high-quality analog volume control, instead of a digital one? That would be my preference, but would require additional hardware instead of just a software upgrade. Perhaps offer a second model ("BDA-1V")? :?:
Yes I am thinking a Digital Stereo Preamp may be a product to consider in the future using the volume control we developed for the B100 and SP3.
james
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The main difference in our digital products has much more to do with the discrete analog Class A circuits around the DAC's and the critical attention to power supply and grounding integrity throughout the circuitry.
All of which the SP2 and SP1.7 possess. Yet, we have users (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59224.msg527228#msg527228) of the BDA-1 who rave how much better it sounds than the processors internal DAC when used as a DAC and processor in bypass combination. Curious, since when used as a DAC with the processor in bypass combination, extra electronics is added.
How could it possibly sound better?
brucek
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The main difference in our digital products has much more to do with the discrete analog Class A circuits around the DAC's and the critical attention to power supply and grounding integrity throughout the circuitry.
All of which the SP2 and SP1.7 possess. Yet, we have users (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59224.msg527228#msg527228) of the BDA-1 who rave how much better it sounds than the processors internal DAC when used as a DAC and processor in bypass combination. Curious, since when used as a DAC with the processor in bypass combination, extra electronics is added.
How could it possibly sound better?
brucek
Hi Brucek,
The DAC's in the SP1.7 and SP2 processor(s) are part of a main digital circuit board that is optimized for Surround multi channel formats.
james
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optimized for Surround multi channel formats
I can't really imagine the DAC itself is that much different, so does optimized for multi channel formats indicate that resolution, noise floor and or distortion is increased as the signal passes through the DSP on the way to the DAC, or perhaps the volume controllers after the DAC in an SP2?
brucek
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optimized for Surround multi channel formats
I can't really imagine the DAC itself is that much different, so does optimized for multi channel formats indicate that resolution, noise floor and or distortion is increased as the signal passes through the DSP on the way to the DAC, or perhaps the volume controllers after the DAC in an SP2?
brucek
Hi Brucek,
Yes the complexity of the circuit and the signal/grounding paths involved with the surround circuit boards are different and much more intricate than the CD Player or the BDA-1. Also the digital Stereo signal is a downmix from the surround signal.
james
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very interesting.
i just can't await the bda-1 to make comparisons with the sp2 and the bps 26 aa. since i know that the 26 sounds better than the sp2 (bypass) to my ears it's kind of exciting what differences there are between the sp2's internal dac and the bda-1.
al.
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I would really like an "all digital" stereo preamp.
Adding a passive volume control and a headphone-output to the BDA-1 would make the perfect PC companion.
Another alternative would be the BP-26 with the optional DAC board.
Mr. Tanner, would you please answer these questions:
- Will the digital board in the BP-26 (in time) be upgraded with this "new generation" DAC-board?
- Does the current DAC-board in the BP-26 have two optical inputs and does it support 192/24?
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Hi BenBau,
Welcome to Audiocircle.
The current DAC in the BP26 has two COAX inputs. It is a 192/24 bit DAC but we only use it up to 96/24. We may look at using the Crystal 4398 that we are currently using in the BDA-1 and BCD-1 in the BP26 at some point in the future.
I too think a digital preamp may be a future product for us. Using a Digital volume control on the BDA-1 has some resolution issues and we would like much more voltage swing (BP26 has plus or minus 30 volts) from a dedicated digital stereo preamp than the adding of a passive analog volume control to the BDA-1 would provide.
james
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Thank you for your fast response.
I guess I'll have to use my current setup for a while: analog output from soundcard to active monitors and dedicated headphone amp. Unfortunately I have a minor groundloop issue (hence the optical preference) and don't have a remote control with the headphone amp. Also, it is not Bryston quality.
At this moment the only option would be the BDA-1, optically connected to my PC. The balanced out then goes to the BP-26. I could sell my headphone amp.
I think this setup is a bit "over the top". Firstly it will cost me at least 7000 euro (European importers :cry:) and secondly I would have three cases on my desk and a too complicated setup with too much (not needed) functionality...
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Using a Digital volume control on the BDA-1 has some resolution issues and we would like much more voltage swing (BP26 has plus or minus 30 volts) from a dedicated digital stereo preamp than the adding of a passive analog volume control to the BDA-1 would provide.
james
So its a no go on the software volume control?
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Using a Digital volume control on the BDA-1 has some resolution issues and we would like much more voltage swing (BP26 has plus or minus 30 volts) from a dedicated digital stereo preamp than the adding of a passive analog volume control to the BDA-1 would provide.
james
So its a no go on the software volume control?
Hi konut,
Correct - we do not think adding a volume control to the BDA-1 (digital or analog) is the best choice.
james
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BUMMER! :(
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Well, I have a digital volume control in my Squeezeboks but I never use it.
Not so relevant in this thread, but Bryston, dont know, but I would like you to go a bit in this direction : http://www.audiovisionsf.com/?page=detail&product_id=1124
The volume is also interesting here, not to mention the room correction bit....
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Yes after our investigation and listening tests I think a Digtal/Analog preamp (BDA-1/BP-26 combination) is something we will move towards in the future.
james
PS I left the 'i' out on purpose :lol:
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Yes after our investigation and listening tests I think a Digtal/Analog preamp (BDA-1/BP-26 combination) is something we will move towards in the future.
That's pretty much what I'm looking for. I want a DAC of the highest quality that can support multiple inputs but also need a solid preamp to integrate analog source as well as volume control. I'm using a Tact 2.0s today but contemplating what's next. Of course, a BP26 *and* a BDA-1 would be sweet - just a matter of $$. :drool:
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Benchmark mades a digital / analog preamp (I think with volume), check their website.
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Benchmark mades a digital / analog preamp (I think with volume), check their website.
But then it wouldn't be a Bryston!
james
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And it doesn't have a remote (or serial port control).
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When will this unit be available in the UK?
I couldn't get a price for it from the distributor.
Thanks.
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When will this unit be available in the UK?
I couldn't get a price for it from the distributor.
Thanks.
Hi Ultraviolet,
I checked and we sent the first shipment of BDA-1's to the UK this past week. Sorry it has taken so long but we have been backordered since we introduced it 2 months ago.
james
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When will this unit be available in the UK?
I couldn't get a price for it from the distributor.
Thanks.
Hi Ultraviolet,
I checked and we sent the first shipment of BDA-1's to the UK this past week. Sorry it has taken so long but we have been backordered since we introduced it 2 months ago.
james
Thanks.
Have found a couple of stores that stock your products but can't find the DAC yet, any idea on the price. :)
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When will this unit be available in the UK?
I couldn't get a price for it from the distributor.
Thanks.
Hi Ultraviolet,
I checked and we sent the first shipment of BDA-1's to the UK this past week. Sorry it has taken so long but we have been backordered since we introduced it 2 months ago.
james
Thanks.
Have found a couple of stores that stock your products but can't find the DAC yet, any idea on the price. :)
Hi,
No sorry the prices are up to each distributor given import duties, shipping etc. Give Tom Baron a call at PMC.
james
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I'm trying to decide whether or not to get this Pioneer sacd player or use my Onkyo DX-7555 as a transport for the BDA-1.
http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/42/201/18420/PD-D9-J/index.html
Should I go for the Pioneer or is it worth the wait for the BDA-1? And does the BDA-1 come close to SACD?
Your comments and suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks.
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My opinion is based on the BCD-1, not the BDA-1
Sacd IMO when done right with MC setup, truly is impressive. The important factor is the amount of sacd titles you see yourself buying. For me the selection is limited which didn't really justify buying my TOTL sacd player. If you like classical music where the selection in sacd is plentiful, then going the sacd route can be justified.
The BDA-1 is comparable to sacd in terms of very little to no distortion on source playback. But IMO the BDA-1 would offer a sound more comparible to dts. Which is better, uncompressed dts or sacd? I like 'em both, but prefer dts as I prefer the sharper highs as they sound more concert realistic.
So then if you see sacd as having a limited selection. Then going with the BDA-1 offers you far more flexability in source material. You can go with streaming, concert dvd's, cd's, etc. elevating all these formats to high resolution low distortion levels of sacd.
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Thank you, I appreciate that...so with the BDA-1, you come very close to SACD?
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Thank you, I appreciate that...so with the BDA-1, you come very close to SACD?
Okay, I compared Kitaro- Kojiki, Orochi, 2-channel sacd to same album in BCD-1. Level matched by ear, I hear the differences but I can't say one is significantly better than the other. As I said before the Bryston has a dts type presentation and sacd is perhaps analog like.
Where sacd shines is in MC. I listen mostly in MC stereo, as good as the BCD-1 is, when I switch to MC sacd, the soundstage is much better with a 3-D like depth and weight. And that goes for MC dts as well. In 2- channel quality stereo recordings IMO Bryston offers an equal level of performance to 2-channel sacd.
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Cool. Thanks again. Did you use the upsampling feature on the BDA-1?
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James,
How is the upsample implemented? Is it a linear interpolation or something else? Is it all done with a fixed logic design in a PAL or something similar? In other words, no DSP?
Thanks,
Tim
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There's no way they're going with linear interpolation -- that's pretty much the worst way to do it. Their upsampling is restricted to integer multiples -- this is good -- keeps the math simpler. The short (but counter-intuitive) answer is that you stuff the extra samples with 0s and then feed the resulting signal through a finite impulse response filter -- this correctly fills in the intermediate values. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upsampling for a simple treatment of the subject, or http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/resample/ for a more in-depth treatment. (The best treatment you'll probably find on the net is at http://dspguru.org/info/faqs/multrate/interp.htm)
Because the samples have been stuffed with 0s, the hardware to implement the FIR is somewhat simpler (requires fewer multipliers) -- The co-efficients for the FIR filter are pre-computed based on the window size and the characteristics of the low-pass filter you're looking for (rolloff rate etc). Now the guys at bryston probably didn't design and implement their own upsampler -- these are available in hardware, and is probably in the re-clocking chip they use -- there are usually a small selection of filters (2 to 4) available on these. I'm curious to know the characteristics of the one Bryston chose for the BDA-1 -- James? Care to ask Chris Russel for me?
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I'm more interested in how the upsampling sounds!
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What is the output impedance of the BDA-1? Is it possible to use a XLR to RCA adapter cable on the balanced outs to take advantage of the higher voltage output for single ended use? I have a passive volume control switching pre is why I ask.
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What is the output impedance of the BDA-1? Is it possible to use a XLR to RCA adapter cable on the balanced outs to take advantage of the higher voltage output for single ended use? I have a passive volume control switching pre is why I ask.
Maybe this was overlooked?
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What is the output impedance of the BDA-1? Is it possible to use a XLR to RCA adapter cable on the balanced outs to take advantage of the higher voltage output for single ended use? I have a passive volume control switching pre is why I ask.
Maybe this was overlooked?
Sorry,I missed this. The output impedance is 50 Ohms and once the system becomes unbalanced (as in adapter cable) the gain is 2 volts instead of 4 volts.
james
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Thanks James!
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For those looking for more details on the innards of the bda-1, I have some nice pics for you (hosted at image shack). Yes -- the first thing I did was attack it with a set of precision torx drivers and my digital camera :-). What can I say -- I'm a bit of a signal processing and electronics nerd -- and now I have created the nerd porn for the rest of you :-) (I just took the lid off and took pics -- didn't actually touch anything inside.)
For those wondering about the upsampling, they're using the TI (Burr-Brown) SRC4392 for the sample rate conversion -- while it can do any rate conversion from 1:16 to 16:1, they're restricting it to 2x and 4x upsampling. (This is likely wise -- non integer multiples need alot more math done on the signal, and it's very hard to completely avoid aliasing and other problems that can crop up). For those wanting all the gory details on how the re sampling works, Have a look at the datasheets for this chip at;
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/src4392
Or if you're really adventurous, have a look at the patent covering their technique at;
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,262,716.PN.&OS=PN/7,262,716&RS=PN/7,262,716
If you look at the pics, you can clearly see how they have separated the digital and analog ground planes -- most signal traces are surrounded by ground traces. (Look to the right of the dacs for the analog signal traces for an example of this.)
Oh -- I almost forgot -- it sounds *amazingly* good. Fantastic precision, detail and control. :-)
(It's connected via balanced cables (canaire 4 star) to a BP-25 w MPS-1, and then with balanced cables to a 4B-ST-Pro. The speakers are PSB Stratus Gold-i, bi-wired with 10 gauge belden speaker wire.) Source is from a Mac Mini, toslink fibre -- digital output on the mini set to 44.1khz -- their available output rates are 44.1, 48 and 96 khz -- the latter two require non integer upsampling and the software that does that on the mac (in OSX 10.5.5) is not up to my standards. The upsampling on the BDA-1 is very very good -- The difference is very subtle -- with it on, the soundstage seems slightly laid back -- with it off, the sound stage feels a bit more in-your-face, and perhaps I'm imagining it, but I also might hear a tiny bit of "graininess" that is not there at all when the upsampling is on -- I'm not sure whether I like it on or off better -- and I can't tell with alot of source material. Clearly I am going to have to do alot more listening :-)
The source material is ripped from CD, and stored with apple loss-less compression.
(for those of you with a mac, go to "Audio Midi Setup" in Applications>Utilities, and set the output sample rate to match our source material -- 44.1/16 for ripped CDs, and 48/24 for almost every dvd. -- I can definitely hear their upsampling when playing through the FrontRow software -- and I don't like it.)
Ok -- here are the pics -- click on them to embiggen :-)
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3668/dscn0219tt8.th.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0219tt8.jpg)
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7061/dscn0214cl7.th.jpg) (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0214cl7.jpg)
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5058/dscn0213xy3.th.jpg) (http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0213xy3.jpg)
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3451/dscn0209yg0.th.jpg) (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0209yg0.jpg)
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/1020/dscn0234eg8.th.jpg) (http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0234eg8.jpg)
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Thank you very much for your review. Nice system by the way.
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Ian,
Nice review and I enjoyed the pictures. Nice to know how Byrston did the upsampling. I currently have my BDA-1 on order and expect it to arrive by mid-November. I can't wait to have it in my system. The rest of my front end is very similar to yours with the identical preamp and a Bryston 4B SST amp.
Cheers,
John
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John,
I think you'll like it alot - you're a more patient man than I to be able to hold out until mid November :-) For those considering it, if you can, you should find a place locally where you can listen -- it sounds great, and as with everything else bryston, it's built like a tank -- I'm very happy with mine. (Picked it up at Whitby Audio -- they gave a good price, and the guy there I bought it from, Mark, is very knowledgeable - I recommend them.)
Hey James, who is "DM"? (saw his initials in a stylized logo in the corner of the board -- see the first image in my previous post -- bottom right corner near the analog output op-amps.)
Cheers,
Ian.
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John,
I think you'll like it alot - you're a more patient man than I to be able to hold out until mid November :-) For those considering it, if you can, you should find a place locally where you can listen -- it sounds great, and as with everything else bryston, it's built like a tank -- I'm very happy with mine. (Picked it up at Whitby Audio -- they gave a good price, and the guy there I bought it from, Mark, is very knowledgeable - I recommend them.)
Hey James, who is "DM"? (saw his initials in a stylized logo in the corner of the board -- see the first image in my previous post -- bottom right corner near the analog output op-amps.)
Cheers,
Ian.
Hi Ian,
Bryston always trys to give our engineers recognition for their design efforts. Sometimes it is in the name of the product - like "ST" for Stuart Taylor on the amplifiers, Mike Pickett - for "MP" on the MPS-2 Power Supply, and of course Dan Marynissen "DM" on the CD Player and the External DAC.
james
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That's a very nice touch, James. 8)
What does the extra S stand for in regards to SST?
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...it means 'super' when i am informed correctly. so it is 'super stuart taylor'.
al.
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Quiz - where does the name "Bryston" come from??
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Your google-fu is weak -- learn from a master :-)search for 'origin of bryston audio' (no quotes) and you'll find;
http://www.soundstagelive.com/factorytours/bryston/
And I quote;
"when Bryston started in 1962, the company was based in the US and had nothing to do with audio. Bryston’s three founders, Tony Bower, Stan Rybb, and John Stoneborough (their last names form the acronym from which Bryston takes its name), made blood-analysis equipment. This continued until 1968, when NASA engineer John Russell, Sr. bought the company. John had worked with NASA during the 1960s, but found himself out of work following the layoffs that accompanied termination of the Apollo missions later that decade. At this time, John moved his family to Canada and re-launched the company there. Once his son Chris had finished college, John hired him to work for Bryston, and Chris set to work designing the first Bryston amplifier.
This amplifier was completed in 1973...."
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Ian,
Looks like I won't be waiting until mid-November. I've just received the FedEx tracking information and I should have the BDA-1 delivered on Election Day! I can't wait to hear it in my system.
Cheers,
John
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John, I'm sure you're going to love it. I've found that it has given me a new appreciation for much of my music library.
James, please pass along my kudos and thanks to Dan Marynissen and the rest of the team at Bryston. The BDA-1 has "completed" my system -- the missing piece is missing no longer! The BDA-1/BP-25/4B-ST/PSB-Stratus Gold-i all Canadian combination sounds incredible, and is giving me many, many hours of enjoyment.
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John, I'm sure you're going to love it. I've found that it has given me a new appreciation for much of my music library.
James, please pass along my kudos and thanks to Dan Marynissen and the rest of the team at Bryston. The BDA-1 has "completed" my system -- the missing piece is missing no longer! The BDA-1/BP-25/4B-ST/PSB-Stratus Gold-i all Canadian combination sounds incredible, and is giving me many, many hours of enjoyment.
Great to hear Ian - I will certainly let Dan know you appreciate his efforts.
james
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hi, all!
as a proud owner of the BDA-1 here are my impressions.
setup:
BCD-1, BDA-1, 26, 1.5 and 4B.
connections:
opto-1: Pioneer plasma
opto-2: DVD
spdif-1: minidisc
spdif-2: BCD-1
spdif 3+4: not in use
aes/ebu: BCD-1
usb: laptop
i decided to give the 26 top priority for stereo preamplification instead of the SP2.
the music stored on the laptop are MP3 files so far. the minidisc is connected to the tapeloop so that comparisons between the internal DAC and the BDA-1 can be done easily. so all digital outs are feeding the BDA and all analog outs feeding the 26. BDA and 26 are connected via XLR and RCA. i used to listen to the laptop's analog out,too. but the sound was too crappy and that's why i want the USB only.
BDA-1 vs. laptop, md and dvd:
the BDA betters the sound of these units. if there would be ranking i would say that the laptop has the 'worst' digital sound. but given the fact that mostly MP3 music is played may explain the results. then comes md and dvd. using the analog outs the dvd comes close in terms of resolution. the sound is not too bad. same for the md. but using the digital outs via the BDA you will notice instantly where the Bryston is coming from! it just puts the missing air where it belongs to. the whole soundstage is improved. seems to me that the other 3 units are almost swallowing musical informations that is so much important for the sweetness of audio.
BDA-1 vs. BCD-1:
that is something i was very interested in. and it happened what i wanted to happen. they sound the same. yeah! both units have the same impact and the same timing. great. no matter if XLR or RCA- i can not tell which is which.
BDA-1 up-sampling:
this is a nice feature for sure. but just to be honest i can not tell the difference. so in a blind test it would end like a comparison between BDA vs. BCD...which is which?
1.5:
this phonostage is just great. even with the let's say low budget cartridge that i am using at the moment the differences are noticeable in a second. it just completes my setup.
conclusion:
i don't want to invent new words for the musical improvement that happens to my ears. words like closer, deeper and clearer might be the right ones. this setup really gives me the feeling that it is now a 'grown up'. may it be a cd or another piece of equipment with digital outs or just the good old vinyl- all of them will find their input into the Bryston-setup knowing that it will output the music with unique performance. and last but not least the look of the 'all-Bryston-design' flashes me again and again...
what to do:
for everyone out there who couldn't make up his mind about a BCD-1 or a BDA-1...don't worry! it more depends on what you need. if cd playback is wanted then go for the BCD. if you need a more versatile unit then the BDA might be yours. in fact the BDA is a BCD without the drive. whatever your decision may be- go and get yourself one of these 'daredevils' and make your system playing louder than a bomb.
al :thumb:
p.s.: technically speaking the BDA-1 and the BCD-1 are not the 'same'...the BDA-1 has dual Crystal 4398 chips!
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Al,
Nice review. Tomorrow my BDA-1 arrives and I can't wait to hook it up to Marantz CD player and Denon DVD player. A lot of people have mentioned that it is difficult (or almost impossible) to tell when the upsampling is engaged. I wonder why this is?
Cheers,
John
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Al,
Nice review. Tomorrow my BDA-1 arrives and I can't wait to hook it up to Marantz CD player and Denon DVD player. A lot of people have mentioned that it is difficult (or almost impossible) to tell when the upsampling is engaged. I wonder why this is?
Cheers,
John
Hi John,
I have had about a 60/40 split in favor of upsampling being detectable so far. It ranges from the extreme of 'everything sounds better when it's upsampled' to 'I can not tell the difference'. It will be interesting to get your feedback as well.
james
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Al,
Nice review. Tomorrow my BDA-1 arrives and I can't wait to hook it up to Marantz CD player and Denon DVD player. A lot of people have mentioned that it is difficult (or almost impossible) to tell when the upsampling is engaged. I wonder why this is?
Cheers,
John
hi, John!
good choice to order a BDA! yes, i really would like to know why some do notice a SIGNIFICANT difference when up-sampling is engaged and others (like me) don't.
al.
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Anyone feeding their BDA-1 via USB from a Windows-based PC?
If so, how would you rate the sound quality versus SPDIF?
Also, what playback software & driver method are you using?
Thanks!
-jim
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Al,
Nice review. Tomorrow my BDA-1 arrives and I can't wait to hook it up to Marantz CD player and Denon DVD player. A lot of people have mentioned that it is difficult (or almost impossible) to tell when the upsampling is engaged. I wonder why this is?
Cheers,
John
hi, John!
good choice to order a BDA! yes, i really would like to know why some do notice a SIGNIFICANT difference when up-sampling is engaged and others (like me) don't.
al.
Actually, I think the upsampling is subtle. The sound stage is a bit bigger. I think it is much more significant when you are playing lower quality MP3s, it really makes them sound damn good.
Mike
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Anyone feeding their BDA-1 via USB from a Windows-based PC?
If so, how would you rate the sound quality versus SPDIF?
Also, what playback software & driver method are you using?
Thanks!
-jim
hi, Jim!
my laptop is Windows-based. since i don't have a spdif out on the laptop i am not able to do comparisons...but if i play a cd through the laptop using the usb out and playing the same cd through the BCD using the spdif out there is not much difference. i use winamp for playback. it always depends on what sound-quality the BDA is receiving. so if you play a 'regular' cd on your computer and using the usb the BDA will put it on a nice level.
don't forget this is just my opinion. as worldwide selling for the BDA will continue there will be different point of views of usb vs. spdif and so on.
hope this helps :wink:
al.
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Just hooked up my BDA-1 into my stereo system yesterday and am amazed at the level of detail and clarity. I notice a very subtle improvement when the upsampling is engaged. Thank you Bryston for making such a great product. It will be in my systems for years (decades) to come.
Cheers,
John
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Hi all.
I'm trying to decide between the BCD and the BDA as a source upgrade. The question I have is, would it be better to use the all in one Bryston BCD or to connect my current CDP (Cyrus CD8X) to the BDA? Are the two DAC's the same (BDA/BCD)?
I've heard of things like jitter etc... which would (I assume) not be a problem with the BCD but could be a problem with the BDA/transport option.
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Anthony,
When I decided to upgrade my source I decided to go with the BDA-1 for the following reasons:
1) More flexibility than a standalone CD player. I have my DVD player's digital output going into by BDA-1 so when I watch opera on DVD I can also have solid 2 channel sound. I can also add a USB input when (if) I so desire.
2) No moving parts to break. Every CD player I have own seems to go out after about 5 to 6 years and it is always the transport. Without any moving parts I expect the BDA-1 to last a very long time.
3) The BDA-1 does offer upsampling; although opinions do differ on how significant a difference it makes to the sound. Personally, I think it makes a very subtle (yet noticeable) improvement so I leave it on when listening.
4) Price: The BDA-1 costs less than the BCD-1.
Good luck and let us know what you choose.
Cheers,
John
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Hi John
I agree that the BDA-1 is a good option because it can be used to play data from many sources. Also your point about the DAC lasting longer is valid.
I'll definitely go to my local dealer to arrange a demo.
Do you think that there would be a difference in quality between the transport-DAC or BCD-1?
Thanks
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I agree with John's suggestion to get the DAC option, BDA-1. This will give you greater flexibility and allow you to use wireless streaming as an alternative to the ubiquitous DVD/CDP. The several digital inputs will allow you to hook multiple digital sources and be assured of excellent audio quality.
Dennis
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Now for my first post here. . . if I decide on the BDA-1 over the BCD-1 for all the reasons stated, what transport is recommended for CD? I wish Bryston made a separate transport but since this is not the case and since I do fear audible degradation issues, i.e. jitter, etc., what do folks use? Thanks! Does Bryston have a recommendation based on their research?
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Now for my first post here. . . if I decide on the BDA-1 over the BCD-1 for all the reasons stated, what transport is recommended for CD? I wish Bryston made a separate transport but since this is not the case and since I do fear audible degradation issues, i.e. jitter, etc., what do folks use? Thanks! Does Bryston have a recommendation based on their research?
Hi Spritz57,
Welcome - does 57 signify your a Quad 57 owner?
james
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I'll put it this way. . . my young adults, formerly kids, look at my goatee and ask, "Dad, Got Milk?"
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New to this forum as I didn't have a Bryston till last week. Really happy with the BDA-1 fed by a Sonos ZP80 and a Pioneer Elite universal player. I will post a short review soon (once I sell my $5k moded CD player which is considered giant killer,... so you can guess the tone of the review).
A few questions:
1) Connecting the BDA-1 is creating a ground loop. My system is very simple and has never had a ground loop before. Floating the ground pin completely eliminates the problem. Is this safe?, any better solution to this problem?
2) Any cable suggestions - digital (RCA or Toslink) and ICs?
3) Anyone is using damping/vibration control devices with the BDA-1? I've noticed that the top of the unit vibrates (with music) more than other components
Rest of the system: BDA-1->AudioQuest King Cobra->Conrad Johnson CA200 (Control Amplifier)->Audience Au24->Penaudio Serenades
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New to this forum as I didn't have a Bryston till last week. Really happy with the BDA-1 fed by a Sonos ZP80 and a Pioneer Elite universal player. I will post a short review soon (once I sell my $5k moded CD player which is considered giant killer,... so you can guess the tone of the review).
A few questions:
1) Connecting the BDA-1 is creating a ground loop. My system is very simple and has never had a ground loop before. Floating the ground pin completely eliminates the problem. Is this safe?, any better solution to this problem?
2) Any cable suggestions - digital (RCA or Toslink) and ICs?
3) Anyone is using damping/vibration control devices with the BDA-1? I've noticed that the top of the unit vibrates (with music) more than other components
Rest of the system: BDA-1->AudioQuest King Cobra->Conrad Johnson CA200 (Control Amplifier)->Audience Au24->Penaudio Serenades
Welcome BaraBara,
Is the ground loop there when there is nothing plugged into the BDA-1?
james
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hi, Bara Bara!
do you mean that if you play music through the BDA the unit is vibrating? if so- where does it come from? there are no moving parts...
thanx,
al.
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New to this forum as I didn't have a Bryston till last week. Really happy with the BDA-1 fed by a Sonos ZP80 and a Pioneer Elite universal player. I will post a short review soon (once I sell my $5k moded CD player which is considered giant killer,... so you can guess the tone of the review).
A few questions:
1) Connecting the BDA-1 is creating a ground loop. My system is very simple and has never had a ground loop before. Floating the ground pin completely eliminates the problem. Is this safe?, any better solution to this problem?
2) Any cable suggestions - digital (RCA or Toslink) and ICs?
3) Anyone is using damping/vibration control devices with the BDA-1? I've noticed that the top of the unit vibrates (with music) more than other components
Rest of the system: BDA-1->AudioQuest King Cobra->Conrad Johnson CA200 (Control Amplifier)->Audience Au24->Penaudio Serenades
Maybe there is a small gerbil running the show inside the BDA-1. Thats old school technology, but I hear its pretty sweet sounding. Its the gerbil fur that makes the BDA 1 sing!
Mike
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New to this forum as I didn't have a Bryston till last week. Really happy with the BDA-1 fed by a Sonos ZP80 and a Pioneer Elite universal player. I will post a short review soon (once I sell my $5k moded CD player which is considered giant killer,... so you can guess the tone of the review).
A few questions:
1) Connecting the BDA-1 is creating a ground loop. My system is very simple and has never had a ground loop before. Floating the ground pin completely eliminates the problem. Is this safe?, any better solution to this problem?
2) Any cable suggestions - digital (RCA or Toslink) and ICs?
3) Anyone is using damping/vibration control devices with the BDA-1? I've noticed that the top of the unit vibrates (with music) more than other components
Rest of the system: BDA-1->AudioQuest King Cobra->Conrad Johnson CA200 (Control Amplifier)->Audience Au24->Penaudio Serenades
Maybe there is a small gerbil running the show inside the BDA-1. Thats old school technology, but I hear its pretty sweet sounding. Its the gerbil fur that makes the BDA 1 sing!
Mike
That's the special "RG" edition with the gerbils inside.. :lol: :lol: Sorry couldn't resist.
Seriously though my SP1.7 top plate vibrates with the music too. Some electromagnetic interaction I assume.
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Thanks for your answer.
James, I will check the ground loop with nothing plugged and tell you.
Regarding the vibration issue, I was just asking if anyone has controlled it with this component and found audible differences.
From a very nice Glen Carol's paper about vibration (he doesn't mention gerbils :wink:):
"Two major types of vibration will occupy our discussions. These vibrations reach our equipment via two distinctly different paths, hence their names: structure borne and air borne vibration. Structure borne vibrations enter through the shelf or platform upon which the component rests. Airborne vibrations are the results of fluctuating air currents produced by the loudspeakers, which vibrate the enclosure of the component."
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The ground loop still there with no sources plugged in. I should have guessed that, both the Sonos and the DVD lack ground pins, so there are only two components grounded, the Ampli and the DAC (when I don't have the CD player plugged to the AC). BTW, I get the hum even if the BDA is in stand-by, it sounds as soon as I turn on the amplifier. I don't have this problem with the CDP (and this one does have a ground pin).
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The ground loop still there with no sources plugged in. I should have guessed that, both the Sonos and the DVD lack ground pins, so there are only two components grounded, the Ampli and the DAC (when I don't have the CD player plugged to the AC). BTW, I get the hum even if the BDA is in stand-by, it sounds as soon as I turn on the amplifier. I don't have this problem with the CDP (and this one does have a ground pin).
Hi BaraBara,
OK thanks- It definitely sounds like a ground loop. Ideally you only want 1 ground in the system.
james
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Thanks for your answer James. So, I understand that it's OK to use a cable with no ground for the BDA-1, as long as the amplifier is grounded. I just think it's better to ground the amplifier (instead of the DAC), as this is the "largest" unit in the system (larger transformers, higher current, larger caps, etc.).
If anyone has experience trying different cables (digital and IC) with the BDA-1 I would really apprecite your comments.
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Thanks for your answer James. So, I understand that it's OK to use a cable with no ground for the BDA-1, as long as the amplifier is grounded. I just think it's better to ground the amplifier (instead of the DAC), as this is the "largest" unit in the system (larger transformers, higher current, larger caps, etc.).
If anyone has experience trying different cables (digital and IC) with the BDA-1 I would really apprecite your comments.
Hi,
Yes I tend to agree leave the amplifier grounded.
james
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I do the same. It works very well. I have cheater plugs on everything else that has 3 prongs.
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MEMO: To All Bryston Customers
SUBJECT: Nice Feedback on our BDA-1 from a Fellow Cable Manufacturer -http://www.empiricaldesign.net/
November 2008
"James
My BDA-1 external DAC arrived last Wednesday. I still have much experimentation to do, but as it warms up it just keeps getting better and better.
I've only tried it using my computer as a source thus far and using the S/PDIF output of my Echo Gina3G audio interface, using Foobar 2000 to play the music, via either Kernel Streaming or ASIO. I'll be experimenting with some other sound cards as well.
As expected, the BNC inputs sound better than the RCA inputs. I'll check the TosLink connection this weekend, but I expect that it won't sound as good as the coax, since it never does.
Regardless of the fine-tuning minutiae, the net improvement with the BDA-1 is simply staggering -- in another league entirely from the analog output of the inexpensive Echo box and the Marantz DV-9600 universal player. Most frustratingly, it is now patently clear that I'm going to have to upgrade my SACD player to keep up!
Have a good day."
Karl Schuster
President
Empirical Design
2579 John Milton Drive
Herndon, VA 20171
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Great feedback! Please post any additional information you get from him. It would be great to hear his opinion about S/PDIF vs. USB.
It's a pity I don't have balanced inputs in my amplifier (as I'm looking to upgrade my ICs), do you think you would preserve any potential advantages of the balanced cables using an XLR-RCA adapter on the amplifier side? (I mean is the Balanced Cable + Adapter better than the same cable with RCAs on both sides). This would be for a short run (0.5 to 1m).
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Great feedback! Please post any additional information you get from him. It would be great to hear his opinion about S/PDIF vs. USB.
It's a pity I don't have balanced inputs in my amplifier (as I'm looking to upgrade my ICs), do you think you would preserve any potential advantages of the balanced cables using an XLR-RCA adapter on the amplifier side? (I mean is the Balanced Cable + Adapter better than the same cable with RCAs on both sides). This would be for a short run (0.5 to 1m).
Hi,
No Advantage - the sending and the receiving end of the cable has to have Fully Differential Balanced circuits.
james
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Ahhh...now that Winter is upon us again....time to start listening to the stereo again 8)
I guess it's time to get one of these fan-dangled BDA-1s :thumb: I guess I'll place an order on Monday or Tuesday.
Keith
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Ahhh...now that Winter is upon us again....time to start listening to the stereo again 8)
I guess it's time to get one of these fan-dangled BDA-1s :thumb: I guess I'll place an order on Monday or Tuesday.
Keith
Hey Keith,
Welcome back sir.
james
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Hi All,
Got this today from our Distributor.
If anyone speaks Hungarian I can email you the complete PDF Review:
"Dear James,
Attached please find fantastic review on BDA-1 in Hungarian stereo magazine “Sztereo”. I will receive few sentence translated and will send you.
Review was just on time as we also have HiFi show in Budapest next weekend.
Best regards
edvard"
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Ahhh...now that Winter is upon us again....time to start listening to the stereo again 8)
I guess it's time to get one of these fan-dangled BDA-1s :thumb: I guess I'll place an order on Monday or Tuesday.
Keith
Hey Keith,
Welcome back sir.
james
Thanks James
I guess it's time to get the BDA-1 I deferred in March/April of this year. I'm also just getting around to assembling my long-anticipated small living room system (fed by Squeezebox wireless) and I'm fighting the B60SST urge! (How do I explain to my wife that I have an audio 'money pit' upstairs & down!)
Don't have any pre-SST B60s in the stable that could be sourced through my dealer....do ya :wink:
Keith
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Ahhh...now that Winter is upon us again....time to start listening to the stereo again 8)
I guess it's time to get one of these fan-dangled BDA-1s :thumb: I guess I'll place an order on Monday or Tuesday.
Keith
Hey Keith,
Welcome back sir.
james
Thanks James
I guess it's time to get the BDA-1 I deferred in March/April of this year. I'm also just getting around to assembling my long-anticipated small living room system (fed by Squeezebox wireless) and I'm fighting the B60SST urge! (How do I explain to my wife that I have an audio 'money pit' upstairs & down!)
Don't have any pre-SST B60s in the stable that could be sourced through my dealer....do ya :wink:
Keith
...i bet that most of the wifes don't even know that their husbands are part of this forum. my lady sometimes asks me ''hey, what are you doing?'' and i say ''well, i am writing...'' 8)
al.
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MEMO - Bryston Customer Feedback
SUBJECT – Bryston BDA-1 External DAC
James,
Thank you for the guidance and advice on your products. The following are my observations/comments:
After 1 week with product – Commentary I shared with a fellow audio nut
Just as an FYI … the more I play with this unit the more impressed I am.
I have been focusing heavily on A/B comparisons between the Bryston and my preamp. In short it is an amazing DAC … it has a bit of a long break-in period. But each night I turn it on … it sounds better and better. The difference between the preamp and Bryston is now medium to large.
The best I can describe it is that the music just comes to life. Soundstage is lively, dimensional and silky smooth. When I switch back to the preamp … it is flat and grainy.
So to get Audiophile access to your digitally stored music this is a Rucinski “highly” recommended product (keep in mind I rip everything lossless).
Regards,Bruce Rucinski
Senior VP, Development Platform Engineering
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Well, it looks like you've got a winner there. I would get the BDA-1, but unfortunately I can't afford one.
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I want to give a bump out to Karl Schuster who not only has been a terrific source of information on pc audio but he makes excellent IC's and Speaker Wire at very fair prices. (Just read TAS's Golden Ear Awards for the past several years). I am usually reluctant to recommend anything but I have been very pleased with Empirical Design's products and thought I should give credit where credit is due!
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Hi James,
Jut wanted to let you know how much I'm enjoying the Bryston BDA-1 DAC.
I use it for two sources. One is from a transport and the other is from a Wadia iPod dock. In both cases, it sounds fantastic.
I'm still experimenting with the upsampling feature. I definitely prefer it when upsampling from Apple lossless files. On regular cds it really depends upon the individual disc that I'm playing. Sometimes I prefer it, sometimes not.
Regards,
Richard
KEF
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Ahhh...now that Winter is upon us again....time to start listening to the stereo again 8)
I guess it's time to get one of these fan-dangled BDA-1s :thumb: I guess I'll place an order on Monday or Tuesday.
Keith
Hey Keith,
Welcome back sir.
james
Yeah, finally got around to placing the order for the BDA-1 today. Should be interesting.
Keith
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Hi James,
Jut wanted to let you know how much I'm enjoying the Bryston BDA-1 DAC.
I use it for two sources. One is from a transport and the other is from a Wadia iPod dock. In both cases, it sounds fantastic.
I'm still experimenting with the upsampling feature. I definitely prefer it when upsampling from Apple lossless files. On regular cds it really depends upon the individual disc that I'm playing. Sometimes I prefer it, sometimes not.
Regards,
Richard
KEF
KEF the speaker company?
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Hi James,
Jut wanted to let you know how much I'm enjoying the Bryston BDA-1 DAC.
I use it for two sources. One is from a transport and the other is from a Wadia iPod dock. In both cases, it sounds fantastic.
I'm still experimenting with the upsampling feature. I definitely prefer it when upsampling from Apple lossless files. On regular cds it really depends upon the individual disc that I'm playing. Sometimes I prefer it, sometimes not.
Regards,
Richard
KEF
KEF the speaker company?
Yes
james
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Thanks.
-
I wanted to add a few comments as another pleased (amazed) owner of a BDA-1. I have had it about a week, but knew from the first few minutes that it was a keeper. My previous DAC was a Lavry DA10, which is a very musical DAC and has bested Benchmark DAC1 and other DACs in its ~$1000 price range in several reviews I've seen. It was certainly a big step up in sound quality from what I had before, analog out from an M-Audio Audiophile 192 soundcard. But in comparison to the BDA-1, the DA10 sounded muddied. Perhaps my system (Magnepan speakers, Classe amps) needs a very transparent DAC like the BDA-1 to avoid this. All the faults in my system I had previously attributed to the speakers or amp, believing the opinion that a DAC is of relatively low importance and will not have a huge effect on SQ. But now these weaknesses are gone, transients are crisp and everything is more musical. I agree with a previous reviewer that the BDA-1 has "mad PRAT" (pace, rhythm, attack, timing). I especially notice this on jazz horns which previously seemed thin, but rock and other genres also benefit.
After trying the optical and USB out I feel the spdif coax out gives best sound, slightly better than optical and noticeably better than USB. I also leave the upsampling off at to me it reduces the transparency and clarity of the sound (some have commented that it adds a tubey effect). One post said the spdif BNC is superior to spdif coax, but I have not tried BNC yet. USB also has some problems with volume control that I don't have with spdif, I can believe what others have reported that USB out can send high volume surges of sound due to quirks in Windows. Even with spdif, I get slight crackling when the audio playback jumps to a new sampling rate file, which never occurred with the Lavry. It would be nice if the BDA-1 was available with a digital volume control. Since I run the DAC's balanced out directly to my amps, I now must use digital volume attenuation within the playback program (Foobar or Xmplay). I buffer the original 16-bit file to 24-bit, and I believe this means that the program can reduce the volume substantially without altering the 16 significant bits. WASAPI output is available in Foobar and Xmplay on Vista, and to me sounds very noticeably better than ASIO (either ASIO4ALL or with M-Audio drivers). I think the redesigned Vista audio stack has a lot of potential. I use spdif out from the onboard audio chip (Realtek AC889). Realtek has been one of the first good implementations of the new audio protocols in Vista, and using WASAPI, the onboard chip sounds indistinguishable to WASAPI out through a mid-range soundcard like M-Audio Audiophile. I think when Lynx and RME release WaveRT drivers that take advantage of Vista's potential, then the gap between digital out from the motherboard vs. a good soundcard will widen again.
In any case, the BDA-1 has improved my enjoyment of the system by a huge amount and is well worth the increase in cost over the ~$1000 DACs, which is saying something in hi-end audio's world of rapidly diminishing returns with increasing price.
-
I want to give a bump out to Karl Schuster who not only has been a terrific source of information on pc audio but he makes excellent IC's and Speaker Wire at very fair prices. (Just read TAS's Golden Ear Awards for the past several years). I am usually reluctant to recommend anything but I have been very pleased with Empirical Design's products and thought I should give credit where credit is due!
Hi Spritz57,
Thanks for the tip-- have some of Karl's cables on the way.
james
-
MEMO - Bryston Dealer Feedback
SUBJECT – New Bryston BDA-1 External DAC
December 2008
"James.
Yesterday marked the introduction of the BDA-1 External DAC to our sales floor.
Steve came in and did the "song & dance" very impressive. I came in early this morning to audition it for myself.
All I can say is WOW.
I listened to a wide variety of music from an i-pod all inputted at 320. This is simply an Outstanding piece. Congrats to all at Bryston and all the Best of the Season."
Richard Bowden
Director of Sales
Bay Bloor Radio
-
HI All,
Got this today from our distributor in the UK - seems the Brits like the BDA-1 as well.
"Theres a review coming out in HiFi Choice soon of the BDA-1 with it on the front cover!!!"
james
-
I can't wait to read it.
-
That's great.
I suspect my unit should be delivered soon if the 10 day lag time (or so) is still valid.
Keith
-
That's great.
I suspect my unit should be delivered soon if the 10 day lag time (or so) is still valid.
Keith
Hi Keith,
Yes we are still running at about 10 days to 2 weeks on new orders.
james
-
That's great.
I suspect my unit should be delivered soon if the 10 day lag time (or so) is still valid.
Keith
Hi Keith,
Yes we are still running at about 10 days to 2 weeks on new orders.
james
Great. I'm in no rush....it shows up when it shows up!
Keith
-
Does the Phase button on a Bryston remote work with the BDA-1, or is it only for the BP-26?
If the BDA-1 currently lacks this feature, I hope you'll consider adding it. If you do, is it likely to be firmware-upgradeable to existing units?
-
Does the Phase button on a Bryston remote work with the BDA-1, or is it only for the BP-26?
If the BDA-1 currently lacks this feature, I hope you'll consider adding it. If you do, is it likely to be firmware-upgradeable to existing units?
Hi Bob,
Currently the Absolute Phase Inversion only works with the BP26.
Not sure if it can be added to the BDA-1 or not - I will ask.
james
-
James,
my Logitech remote allows me to reduce or raise the volume of the BDA-1 from 0db to -3db. and it works! i wonder why the BR-2 doesn't
offer this feature?
al.
-
James,
my Logitech remote allows me to reduce or raise the volume of the BDA-1 from 0db to -3db. and it works! i wonder why the BR-2 doesn't
offer this feature?
al.
Hi Alex,
Because when you reduce the volume in the digital domain you lose resolution.
james
-
MEMO - Bryston Customer Feedback
SUBJECT – Bryston BDA-1 External DAC
Hi All,
As you know we send out new products to be reviewed by various magazines and reviewers to expose new products to the marketplace. The greatest honour to Bryston is when the reviewer is so taken with the product that they procure one for themselves. I thought you might find the email below which I received today interesting from one of the premium Hi-Fi magazines and reviewers in Canada on our new BDA-1 external DAC.
Hi James,
The Bryston BDA-1 technical bench test is super positive. There will be a very extensive review with nice hi-res images in our upcoming issue.
I am now using the BDA-1 to review the Thiel CS3.7 loudspeakers, and the BDA-1 is a marvelous DAC.
I am very happy to have Bryston BDA-1 in Son & Image Magazine official listening room.
Best,
Michel Leroux
Publisher & Chief Editor
Son & Image Magazine
-
James,
my Logitech remote allows me to reduce or raise the volume of the BDA-1 from 0db to -3db. and it works! i wonder why the BR-2 doesn't
offer this feature?
al.
Hi Alex,
Because when you reduce the volume in the digital domain you lose resolution.
james
James,
i know about the resolution loss. i am just wondering why the Logitech database download for the BDA-1
includes this special feature. your statement is and has always been that Bryston would not offer a volume control for the BDA-1.
where is Logitech's (volume) solution coming from...???
al.
-
James,
my Logitech remote allows me to reduce or raise the volume of the BDA-1 from 0db to -3db. and it works! i wonder why the BR-2 doesn't
offer this feature?
al.
Hi Alex,
Because when you reduce the volume in the digital domain you lose resolution.
james
James,
i know about the resolution loss. i am just wondering why the Logitech database download for the BDA-1
includes this special feature. your statement is and has always been that Bryston would not offer a volume control for the BDA-1.
where is Logitech's (volume) solution coming from...???
al.
Hi Al,
You got me! I have no idea?
james
-
James,
my Logitech remote allows me to reduce or raise the volume of the BDA-1 from 0db to -3db. and it works! i wonder why the BR-2 doesn't
offer this feature?
al.
Hi Alex,
Because when you reduce the volume in the digital domain you lose resolution.
james
James,
i know about the resolution loss. i am just wondering why the Logitech database download for the BDA-1
includes this special feature. your statement is and has always been that Bryston would not offer a volume control for the BDA-1.
where is Logitech's (volume) solution coming from...???
al.
Hi Al,
You got me! I have no idea?
james
...then send out your spies, James! 8)
-
James,
my Logitech remote allows me to reduce or raise the volume of the BDA-1 from 0db to -3db. and it works! i wonder why the BR-2 doesn't
offer this feature?
al.
Hi Alex,
Because when you reduce the volume in the digital domain you lose resolution.
james
James,
i know about the resolution loss. i am just wondering why the Logitech database download for the BDA-1
includes this special feature. your statement is and has always been that Bryston would not offer a volume control for the BDA-1.
where is Logitech's (volume) solution coming from...???
al.
Hi Al,
You got me! I have no idea?
james
...then send out your spies, James! 8)
Hi Al,
OK - I spoke to my spies and they have set me straight!
The minus 3dB controls the 'OUTPUT LEVEL' and is only suppose to be set once depending on the total 'GAIN' you want in the system. It is NOT meant to be adjusted as you listen.
So the minus 3dB is available as a CODE on our remote but there are no buttons to adjust it on the fly for the reasons above.
james
-
James,
my Logitech remote allows me to reduce or raise the volume of the BDA-1 from 0db to -3db. and it works! i wonder why the BR-2 doesn't
offer this feature?
al.
Hi Alex,
Because when you reduce the volume in the digital domain you lose resolution.
james
James,
i know about the resolution loss. i am just wondering why the Logitech database download for the BDA-1
includes this special feature. your statement is and has always been that Bryston would not offer a volume control for the BDA-1.
where is Logitech's (volume) solution coming from...???
al.
Hi Al,
You got me! I have no idea?
james
...then send out your spies, James! 8)
Hi Al,
OK - I spoke to my spies and they have set me straight!
The plus or minus 3dB controls the 'OUTPUT LEVEL' and is only suppose to be set once depending on the total 'GAIN' you want in the system. It is NOT meant to be adjusted as you listen.
So the plus or minus 3dB is available as a CODE on our remote but there are no buttons to adjust it on the fly for the reasons above.
james
ok, James. i understand.
say hi to your spies and let 'em know that the Bryston-underdogs are still watching the scene... :wink:
al.
-
Yes after our investigation and listening tests I think a Digtal/Analog preamp (BDA-1/BP-26 combination) is something we will move towards in the future.
james
PS I left the 'i' out on purpose :lol:
James, a couple months back you mentioned the above. Any idea just how far out this might be? Would this be a new DAC card for the 26 or a whole new product? I know it's difficult to talk futures but I've got an itch in need of a scratch :lol: Any insight is appreciated.
-
Yes after our investigation and listening tests I think a Digtal/Analog preamp (BDA-1/BP-26 combination) is something we will move towards in the future.
james
PS I left the 'i' out on purpose :lol:
James, a couple months back you mentioned the above. Any idea just how far out this might be? Would this be a new DAC card for the 26 or a whole new product? I know it's difficult to talk futures but I've got an itch in need of a scratch :lol: Any insight is appreciated.
We have not looked at it yet but I envision a product that would combine the BP26 and the BDA-1 in one product.
james
-
That would be incredible. No doubt.
-
Hi Al,
OK - I spoke to my spies and they have set me straight!
The plus or minus 3dB controls the 'OUTPUT LEVEL' and is only suppose to be set once depending on the total 'GAIN' you want in the system. It is NOT meant to be adjusted as you listen.
So the plus or minus 3dB is available as a CODE on our remote but there are no buttons to adjust it on the fly for the reasons above.
james
Interesting! What setting is the default setting (new, out of the box) with no remote?
-
Hi Al,
OK - I spoke to my spies and they have set me straight!
The plus or minus 3dB controls the 'OUTPUT LEVEL' and is only suppose to be set once depending on the total 'GAIN' you want in the system. It is NOT meant to be adjusted as you listen.
So the plus or minus 3dB is available as a CODE on our remote but there are no buttons to adjust it on the fly for the reasons above.
james
Interesting! What setting is the default setting (new, out of the box) with no remote?
0dB.
james
-
hi!
for everyone who is interested...
the BDA-1 can have the following settings (via remote): 0dB, -1dB, -2dB, -3dB.
al.
-
Yes after our investigation and listening tests I think a Digtal/Analog preamp (BDA-1/BP-26 combination) is something we will move towards in the future.
james
PS I left the 'i' out on purpose :lol:
James, a couple months back you mentioned the above. Any idea just how far out this might be? Would this be a new DAC card for the 26 or a whole new product? I know it's difficult to talk futures but I've got an itch in need of a scratch :lol: Any insight is appreciated.
We have not looked at it yet but I envision a product that would combine the BP26 and the BDA-1 in one product.
james
James, is this something Bryston envisions looking at sometime in 2009, perhaps to have a prototype at CES in Jan. 2010? Do you think HT Bypass will be an option too? Or is it something that will be longer in development? Thanks
-
Yes after our investigation and listening tests I think a Digtal/Analog preamp (BDA-1/BP-26 combination) is something we will move towards in the future.
james
PS I left the 'i' out on purpose :lol:
James, a couple months back you mentioned the above. Any idea just how far out this might be? Would this be a new DAC card for the 26 or a whole new product? I know it's difficult to talk futures but I've got an itch in need of a scratch :lol: Any insight is appreciated.
We have not looked at it yet but I envision a product that would combine the BP26 and the BDA-1 in one product.
james
James, is this something Bryston envisions looking at sometime in 2009, perhaps to have a prototype at CES in Jan. 2010? Do you think HT Bypass will be an option too? Or is it something that will be longer in development? Thanks
HI Phil,
At this point it is just a glint in my eye but I feel as we move towards mutilple digital sources and high quality analog playback the two would mesh nicely in a BP26/BDA-1 type product. We could also, as you say, build in some of the features that customers would have liked it either product such as volume control, passthrough etc.
james
-
Hi Al,
OK - I spoke to my spies and they have set me straight!
The plus or minus 3dB controls the 'OUTPUT LEVEL' and is only suppose to be set once depending on the total 'GAIN' you want in the system. It is NOT meant to be adjusted as you listen.
So the plus or minus 3dB is available as a CODE on our remote but there are no buttons to adjust it on the fly for the reasons above.
james
Interesting! What setting is the default setting (new, out of the box) with no remote?
0dB.
james
James,
Does changing the setting change the gain in the digital or analog domain? I'm guessing in the analog domain since you've mentioned that your engineers have determined that making changes in the digital domain causes resolution to suffer?
Sorry if this is a silly question, but I saw in the specs that the output voltage from the unbalanced output level is 2.3v. Does setting the gain to something other than 0db (-1db for example) effectively lower the output voltage of the BDA-1? This is potentially very useful for me because when I want to listen at low volumes late at night, I need a source that has relatively low gain as my integrated amplifier does not balance well when the volume control is at low levels.
-
Hi Al,
OK - I spoke to my spies and they have set me straight!
The plus or minus 3dB controls the 'OUTPUT LEVEL' and is only suppose to be set once depending on the total 'GAIN' you want in the system. It is NOT meant to be adjusted as you listen.
So the plus or minus 3dB is available as a CODE on our remote but there are no buttons to adjust it on the fly for the reasons above.
james
Interesting! What setting is the default setting (new, out of the box) with no remote?
0dB.
james
James,
Does changing the setting change the gain in the digital or analog domain? I'm guessing in the analog domain since you've mentioned that your engineers have determined that making changes in the digital domain causes resolution to suffer?
Sorry if this is a silly question, but I saw in the specs that the output voltage from the unbalanced output level is 2.3v. Does setting the gain to something other than 0db (-1db for example) effectively lower the output voltage of the BDA-1? This is potentially very useful for me because when I want to listen at low volumes late at night, I need a source that has relatively low gain as my integrated amplifier does not balance well when the volume control is at low levels.
Hi,
The 3dB output level reduction is done in the Digital mode. With this small a change (3dB) the resolution is not compromised. The reason for the ability to reduce the output level is to prevent some preamplifier's from overloading on their input.
I do not know if 3dB will be enough to compensate for the volume control mistracking on your integrated amplifier.
james
-
Hi Al,
OK - I spoke to my spies and they have set me straight!
The plus or minus 3dB controls the 'OUTPUT LEVEL' and is only suppose to be set once depending on the total 'GAIN' you want in the system. It is NOT meant to be adjusted as you listen.
So the plus or minus 3dB is available as a CODE on our remote but there are no buttons to adjust it on the fly for the reasons above.
james
Interesting! What setting is the default setting (new, out of the box) with no remote?
0dB.
james
James,
Does changing the setting change the gain in the digital or analog domain? I'm guessing in the analog domain since you've mentioned that your engineers have determined that making changes in the digital domain causes resolution to suffer?
Sorry if this is a silly question, but I saw in the specs that the output voltage from the unbalanced output level is 2.3v. Does setting the gain to something other than 0db (-1db for example) effectively lower the output voltage of the BDA-1? This is potentially very useful for me because when I want to listen at low volumes late at night, I need a source that has relatively low gain as my integrated amplifier does not balance well when the volume control is at low levels.
Hi,
The 3dB output level reduction is done in the Digital mode. With this small a change (3dB) the resolution is not compromised. The reason for the ability to reduce the output level is to prevent some preamplifier's from overloading on their input.
I do not know if 3dB will be enough to compensate for the volume control mistracking on your integrated amplifier.
james
James,
Thanks for your answer. I may just have to experiment.
How do I go about change the gain for the BDA-1? I don't have the Logitech remote that alexone used to change the gain on his BDA-1.
-
hi, sheppard!
as far as i know the BR2 universal remote has different codes for the different settings.
al.
-
Hi Al,
OK - I spoke to my spies and they have set me straight!
The plus or minus 3dB controls the 'OUTPUT LEVEL' and is only suppose to be set once depending on the total 'GAIN' you want in the system. It is NOT meant to be adjusted as you listen.
So the plus or minus 3dB is available as a CODE on our remote but there are no buttons to adjust it on the fly for the reasons above.
james
Interesting! What setting is the default setting (new, out of the box) with no remote?
0dB.
james
James,
Does changing the setting change the gain in the digital or analog domain? I'm guessing in the analog domain since you've mentioned that your engineers have determined that making changes in the digital domain causes resolution to suffer?
Sorry if this is a silly question, but I saw in the specs that the output voltage from the unbalanced output level is 2.3v. Does setting the gain to something other than 0db (-1db for example) effectively lower the output voltage of the BDA-1? This is potentially very useful for me because when I want to listen at low volumes late at night, I need a source that has relatively low gain as my integrated amplifier does not balance well when the volume control is at low levels.
Hi,
The 3dB output level reduction is done in the Digital mode. With this small a change (3dB) the resolution is not compromised. The reason for the ability to reduce the output level is to prevent some preamplifier's from overloading on their input.
I do not know if 3dB will be enough to compensate for the volume control mistracking on your integrated amplifier.
james
James,
Thanks for your answer. I may just have to experiment.
How do I go about change the gain for the BDA-1? I don't have the Logitech remote that alexone used to change the gain on his BDA-1.
Hi,
You have to have a remote- BR2.
james
-
Hi Al,
OK - I spoke to my spies and they have set me straight!
The plus or minus 3dB controls the 'OUTPUT LEVEL' and is only suppose to be set once depending on the total 'GAIN' you want in the system. It is NOT meant to be adjusted as you listen.
So the plus or minus 3dB is available as a CODE on our remote but there are no buttons to adjust it on the fly for the reasons above.
james
Interesting! What setting is the default setting (new, out of the box) with no remote?
0dB.
james
James,
Does changing the setting change the gain in the digital or analog domain? I'm guessing in the analog domain since you've mentioned that your engineers have determined that making changes in the digital domain causes resolution to suffer?
Sorry if this is a silly question, but I saw in the specs that the output voltage from the unbalanced output level is 2.3v. Does setting the gain to something other than 0db (-1db for example) effectively lower the output voltage of the BDA-1? This is potentially very useful for me because when I want to listen at low volumes late at night, I need a source that has relatively low gain as my integrated amplifier does not balance well when the volume control is at low levels.
Hi,
The 3dB output level reduction is done in the Digital mode. With this small a change (3dB) the resolution is not compromised. The reason for the ability to reduce the output level is to prevent some preamplifier's from overloading on their input.
I do not know if 3dB will be enough to compensate for the volume control mistracking on your integrated amplifier.
james
James,
i remember when i was using the SP2 and the BCD-1's unbalanced analog outs the Processor's display showed 'clipping'. is it correct that the ability to reduce the BDA-1's output level can prevent the 'clipping' thing?
al.
-
Hi Al,
Correct - the SP2 menu shows clipping (even though it isn't) above 2 Volts (THX requirement) so reducing the gain on the BDA-1 would prevent that.
james
-
hi, sheppard!
as far as i know the BR2 universal remote has different codes for the different settings.
al.
Alexone,
Thanks for the info. I'm not sure if I want to purchase the remote for a one time gain change - which Logitech remote are you using that let you change the gain on the BDA-1?
-
Sheppard,
i am using the 'Harmony One'. but you can use other Logitech remotes as well. depending on how many units you want to control. the 'Harmony One' can handle up to 15. that's why i bought this one.
Logitech has a huge data base of which you can download (via USB) your own setup remote-codes.
al.
-
Sheppard,
forgot one thing...
what you need is this number: 0810 1500 3478. call Logitech and ask to speak a level 2 tech. they should be able to help you. as far as i know the BDA-1 code is still not in their database. funny thing somehow?!
anyway, try this number and let us know if it works out.
al. :D
-
I recently received the BDA-1 and BP-26. I am very please with both of them. There are still a number of questions i'm still trying to answer. Like how do you play sample rates higher than 44.1? How do others have their HiRes content played through this DAC? If computer is the answer, where do you get the HiRes content? Downloads, SACD, create your own???
-
... where do you get the HiRes content? Downloads, SACD, create your own???
Check out hdtracks.com and linnrecords.com. If there are others, I'd like to hear about them as well.
-
Is there anyway to create your own HiRes files? Mr. Tanner sent me a good list of sites, but it was 99% artist I have never heard of. Also, I'm struggling with finding a way to play the content at the downloaded resolution. I was contemplating getting an external sound card for my laptop and download to that. Is all HiRes content SACD rips? Why not just get a decent SACD? Any ideas are greatly appreciatied.
-
My BDA-1 showed up today.......I guess I'll fire it up tonight :D
Keith
-
Is there anyway to create your own HiRes files? Mr. Tanner sent me a good list of sites, but it was 99% artist I have never heard of. Also, I'm struggling with finding a way to play the content at the downloaded resolution. I was contemplating getting an external sound card for my laptop and download to that. Is all HiRes content SACD rips? Why not just get a decent SACD? Any ideas are greatly appreciatied.
Hi D,
At this point Hi-res usually refers to content at 96KHz/24Bit and above (192/24). The only source at this point I am aware of is downloaded music off the internet and some specialty DVD's.
You can not 'make your own hi-res' from current CD's etc.
james
-
James
From my read of the manual......when upsampling is engaged, the 8-bank LEDs should reflect te rate, correct?
For example, when I engage the 'upsample' button, the LED over the button is orange....but the 8-bank indicator should be showing 176k (my source is 44.1k), correct? Mine still shows 44.1K.
I'm not sure the upsampling feature is working properly on the BDA-1 I just got....or am I wrong here?
Keith
-
James
From my read of the manual......when upsampling is engaged, the 8-bank LEDs should reflect te rate, correct?
For example, when I engage the 'upsample' button, the LED over the button is orange....but the 8-bank indicator should be showing 176k (my source is 44.1k), correct? Mine still shows 44.1K.
I'm not sure the upsampling feature is working properly on the BDA-1 I just got....or am I wrong here?
Keith
Hi Keith,
All is correct.
The sample rate is what is coming in not what is going out.
It will upsample to the highest rate if the upsample is engaged.
UPSAMPLING
After the input stage, the signal goes to the SYNCHRONOUS upsampling circuit (sample rate
converter). This circuit converts the digital signal from one sample rate and bit depth to another. In the BDA-1, the sample rate is increased from the input sample frequency (32K, 48K, or 96K upsamples to 192K and 44.1K or 88.2K upsamples to 176.4K).
james
-
James
From my read of the manual......when upsampling is engaged, the 8-bank LEDs should reflect te rate, correct?
For example, when I engage the 'upsample' button, the LED over the button is orange....but the 8-bank indicator should be showing 176k (my source is 44.1k), correct? Mine still shows 44.1K.
I'm not sure the upsampling feature is working properly on the BDA-1 I just got....or am I wrong here?
Keith
Hi Keith,
All is correct.
The sample rate is what is coming in not what is going out.
It will upsample to the highest rate if the upsample is engaged.
UPSAMPLING
After the input stage, the signal goes to the
SYNCHRONOUS upsampling circuit (sample rate
converter). This circuit converts the digital signal from one
sample rate and bit depth to another. In the BDA-1, the
sample rate is increased from the input sample frequency
(32K, 48K, or 96K upsamples to 192K and 44.1K or
88.2K upsamples to 176.4K).
james
OK...but you might want to address Point #2 in the manual since what it says should be happening is not what's happening (from what I can tell).
The manual seems to indicate that the 176.4k LED would light red when upsampling as it points back to Point #1 about the 8-bank array.
Keith
-
I really wanted to see my BDA handle some hi-res content, but I've spent a couple unsuccessful days trying to make this happen. I don't have anything in the house that will output greater than 48 (laptop). I really wanted to see those other lights come on. :) I will say that the dac is amazing. I bought a SACD player over the weekend and played it along with the BDA-1. I just got back from the store returning the SACD player.
I do wish someone could tell me how to get 96 or 192 content to play. I get the computer file part, but the hardware requirements and connections are eluding me. Will M-Audio sound card using USB connection to the BDA work?
-
James
From my read of the manual......when upsampling is engaged, the 8-bank LEDs should reflect te rate, correct?
For example, when I engage the 'upsample' button, the LED over the button is orange....but the 8-bank indicator should be showing 176k (my source is 44.1k), correct? Mine still shows 44.1K.
I'm not sure the upsampling feature is working properly on the BDA-1 I just got....or am I wrong here?
Keith
Hi Keith,
All is correct.
The sample rate is what is coming in not what is going out.
It will upsample to the highest rate if the upsample is engaged.
UPSAMPLING
After the input stage, the signal goes to the
SYNCHRONOUS upsampling circuit (sample rate
converter). This circuit converts the digital signal from one
sample rate and bit depth to another. In the BDA-1, the
sample rate is increased from the input sample frequency
(32K, 48K, or 96K upsamples to 192K and 44.1K or
88.2K upsamples to 176.4K).
james
OK...but you might want to address Point #2 in the manual since what it says should be happening is not what's happening (from what I can tell).
The manual seems to indicate that the 176.4k LED would light red when upsampling as it points back to Point #1 about the 8-bank array.
Keith
Hi Keith,
Yes there's a typo there - it should say 'LED lights' not 'LED's light' (meaning the 'upsample' LED lights not the 'sample rate' LED. Thanks for catching that.
james
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I really wanted to see my BDA handle some hi-res content, but I've spent a couple unsuccessful days trying to make this happen. I don't have anything in the house that will output greater than 48 (laptop). I really wanted to see those other lights come on. :) I will say that the dac is amazing. I bought a SACD player over the weekend and played it along with the BDA-1. I just got back from the store returning the SACD player.
I do wish someone could tell me how to get 96 or 192 content to play. I get the computer file part, but the hardware requirements and connections are eluding me. Will M-Audio sound card using USB connection to the BDA work?
Hi d,
No the USB is limited to 48/16 so you need to use any other input. Usually the quality sound cards like M-Audio and Lynx will have SPDIF or AES/EBU digital outputs which will give you the full 192/24.
I will be using the BDA -1 and prototype Music server at the Vegas show next week which we have loaded with some 96/24 and 192/24 cuts - I will let you know how it goes.
james
PS- glad your enjoying the Bryston DAC - I have had a fair number of customers call me and tell me how the regular Redbook CD's through the BDA-1 give the SACD players a run for their money.
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I will be using the BDA -1 and prototype Music server at the Vegas show next week which we have loaded with some 96/24 and 192/24 cuts - I will let you know how it goes.
James, many of us would be very interested if you can suggest how to couple low jitter digital audio from a computer (preferably a compact computer such as a laptop or a Mac Mini) to a BDA-1.
So far, I've tried two methods, both of which are markedly inferior to my old Levinson 37 CD transport (via Stereovox BNC S/PDIF cable):
1. Toslink out from my Macbook Pro (via Wireworld Toslink cable).
2. S/PDIF out from a Logitech Squeezebox 3 (via the Stereovox S/PDIF cable). I expected the Squeezebox to be a perfect solution because it has a 40 second (!) buffer that completely decouples its clock from the computer data transmission rate, but apparently its clock is not very stable.
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Definitely the cheap SACD players. I took that Sony right back to Best Buy. They asked me why I was bringing it back..."failure to accomplish the task for which it was purchased". I'm sure there are SACD players that sound better. They probably cost way more than my BDA-1.
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I will be using the BDA -1 and prototype Music server at the Vegas show next week which we have loaded with some 96/24 and 192/24 cuts - I will let you know how it goes.
James, many of us would be very interested if you can suggest how to couple low jitter digital audio from a computer (preferably a compact computer such as a laptop or a Mac Mini) to a BDA-1.
So far, I've tried two methods, both of which are markedly inferior to my old Levinson 37 CD transport (via Stereovox BNC S/PDIF cable):
1. Toslink out from my Macbook Pro (via Wireworld Toslink cable).
2. S/PDIF out from a Logitech Squeezebox 3 (via the Stereovox S/PDIF cable). I expected the Squeezebox to be a perfect solution because it has a 40 second (!) buffer that completely decouples its clock from the computer data transmission rate, but apparently its clock is not very stable.
Hi Bob,
The BDA-1 'reclocks and resamples' the incoming digital signal so the clock jitter in the source should not present a problem.
james
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Bob, I'm sorry to hear that about the Squeezebox. I was planning to purchase one. Maybe the Transporter is better. I hope you're able to get James to tell. I've asked him that question about 4 times over the last week. He must still be in the "evaluation" phase.
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Bob, I'm sorry to hear that about the Squeezebox. I was planning to purchase one. Maybe the Transporter is better. I hope you're able to get James to tell. I've asked him that question about 4 times over the last week. He must still be in the "evaluation" phase.
Guys
I have a Duet and a Squeezebox Classic. I've been running the Duet into the BDA-1 all afternoon. I'd be careful about reading too much into the 'specs' of clocks, etc.
I looked at the Transporter myself, but since I didn't need the internal DAC, it's not worth the extra $$$ IMHO. As well, I knew with the reclocking in the BDA-1 it was a non-issue.
IMHO....get a $399 Squeezebox Duet, hook it into the BDA-1 and enjoy the music :thumb: If I ever want to get a little silly, I'll order one of the 'after-market' power supplies for the Duet.......IF I GET SILLY, THAT IS!
Keith
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Thanks. It's so difficult to make these decision. I have so many options, e.g. room correction, cabling, power filters, etc. I WANT IT ALL NOW!!! Of course, I'm married and the wife will never let me attain that level of happiness. :nono:
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Hi james,
why is the USB input limited to 48/16 ? is it due to UBS 1.0 , could be be better with USB 2.0 ? i tried a 96Khz / 24 bits linn file but unfortunately i noticed that the input led was set to 48K.
I got a BDA-1 for testing during the christmas hollidays: I use an Audionet Art V2 integrated CD player (+BP26 + 4BSST). I noticed a wider soundtstage but the BDA is also also a little bit dryer compared to the audionet (may be due to different cables for XLR and RCA connection). The upsampling facility is for me clearly audible and contribute to the wider soundstage.
A many others I would like to use BDA-1 as a maily a way to play files with resolution higher than a CD : regarding the input connectors what are the different possible sources.
Phurbag
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Hi james,
why is the USB input limited to 48/16 ? is it due to UBS 1.0 , could be be better with USB 2.0 ? i tried a 96Khz / 24 bits linn file but unfortunately i noticed that the input led was set to 48K.
I got a BDA-1 for testing during the christmas hollidays: I use an Audionet Art V2 integrated CD player (+BP26 + 4BSST). I noticed a wider soundtstage but the BDA is also also a little bit dryer compared to the audionet (may be due to different cables for XLR and RCA connection). The upsampling facility is for me clearly audible and contribute to the wider soundstage.
A many others I would like to use BDA-1 as a maily a way to play files with resolution higher than a CD : regarding the input connectors what are the different possible sources.
Phurbag
Hi Phurbag,
Correct the USB is version 1 (48/16) and will be updated to version 2 once the new chips are available.
44.1K/16bit is CD quality so that is still the case with the USB input.
All the other inputs are 192/24 capable and most quality sound cards have COAX or AES/EBU outputs which will give you native 192/24.
The thing to remember here though is not to get too caught up in resolution bits -- as with our CD Player -- the main advantage and the reason we are getting such kick-ass reviews on the CD Player and the DAC is because the digital stage is state of the art but so to is the Class A analog stages and power supply technology around the DAC's.
james
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...2. S/PDIF out from a Logitech Squeezebox 3 (via the Stereovox S/PDIF cable). I expected the Squeezebox to be a perfect solution because it has a 40 second (!) buffer that completely decouples its clock from the computer data transmission rate, but apparently its clock is not very stable.
Hi Bob,
I'm wondering please, where did you hear the clock from the SB3 was not stable? Did the info include how was it measured, and state what were the results?
You may wish to try the optical out from the SB3 as well, which depending on the DAC, some prefer over the coax out.
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I share Bob’s experience.
Toslink is the worst of all, highest jitter on every single device I tried.
And while Squeezebox is indeed isolated from PC in every way simply due to the fact it is the Ethernet that is used to transfer blocks of data that are assembled into digital signal, the execution of Squeezebox, from power supply to clock, is very poor, and this clearly results in very high jitter on any digital output, SPDIF on Squeezebox is poor while Toslink is horrible.
There is no such thing as jitter immune DAC.
It is silly to even consider using Squeezebox as digital source into any but the cheapest DACs.
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...consider using Squeezebox as digital source into any but the cheapest DACs.
Hi Sasha,
I am wondering what you consider by "cheapest"?
Also, do you have an SB3, and have you ever tried it as a source? :?:
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Toslink is the worst of all, highest jitter on every single device I tried.
It's amazing that you have test equipment to be able to measure this.
It is silly to even consider using Squeezebox as digital source into any but the cheapest DACs.
Everyone is this hobby is silly in different ways. Can't say I agree with your comment. Sure, a high-end transport, etc, with lower 'jittter', etc, MAY be a better source? I really don't know and really don't care since I doubt there's any appreciable difference for me. I have tried a few options and the results were that there were certainly no dicernable differences that I could detect....and that's the only set of ears that matter to me.
As far as using the Squeezebox as a source, this is not the first time I've seen these types of comments. In UHF Mag Issue #79 they actually built their own little "robust" power supply for the Squeezebox to see if it made an improvement over the cheap little switching power supply that comes with the unit. Two of the reviewers thought that the upgrade made a difference on the first try. One reviewer thought that the cheap little supply sounded better. On a second pass, all agreed that the upgraded supply had some advantages. In the end, all commented that IT WAS SCARY HOW CLOSE THE SQUEEZEBOX CAME TO ITS REFERENCE PLAYER. And yes, thery are referring to the 'upgraded' Squeezebox, but at first one of the reviewers thought the stock one sounded better, which leads me to believe the stock and upgraded are very close.
So, even though the thought of using a $300 piece of equipment in a high-end system is totally not your cup of tea, it may very well float somebody else's boat and the marginal difference, if any, may not be worth the extra $$ for more expensive gear.
However, I certainly wouldn't call somebody silly for even entertaining the idea. After all, it's all about the music.....right :wink:
Keith
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Interesting point.
How much jitter does it take to be heard by an experienced listener?
james
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Toslink is the worst of all, highest jitter on every single device I tried.
It's amazing that you have test equipment to be able to measure this.
It is silly to even consider using Squeezebox as digital source into any but the cheapest DACs.
Everyone is this hobby is silly in different ways. Can't say I agree with your comment. Sure, a high-end transport, etc, with lower 'jittter', etc, MAY be a better source? I really don't know and really don't care since I doubt there's any appreciable difference for me. I have tried a few options and the results were that there were certainly no dicernable differences that I could detect....and that's the only set of ears that matter to me.
As far as using the Squeezebox as a source, this is not the first time I've seen these types of comments. In UHF Mag Issue #79 they actually built their own little "robust" power supply for the Squeezebox to see if it made an improvement over the cheap little switching power supply that comes with the unit. Two of the reviewers thought that the upgrade made a difference on the first try. One reviewer thought that the cheap little supply sounded better. On a second pass, all agreed that the upgraded supply had some advantages. In the end, all commented that IT WAS SCARY HOW CLOSE THE SQUEEZEBOX CAME TO ITS REFERENCE PLAYER. And yes, thery are referring to the 'upgraded' Squeezebox, but at first one of the reviewers thought the stock one sounded better, which leads me to believe the stock and upgraded are very close.
So, even though the thought of using a $300 piece of equipment in a high-end system is totally not your cup of tea, it may very well float somebody else's boat and the marginal difference, if any, may not be worth the extra $$ for more expensive gear.
However, I certainly wouldn't call somebody silly for even entertaining the idea. After all, it's all about the music.....right :wink:
Keith
I agree with Keith's comments that the SB3 may not be everybody's cup of tea but anyhow the ultimate aim is about the music.
As for the PSU (and strictly from my experience and friends whose ears I trust), a good PSU will elevate the humble SB3 to heights that would favourably compare with an expensive CDP (and some might say, even reference players). I use a Paul Hynes' PSU (really small rectagular shunt regulator) and use the SB3's digital out via coaxial (Karl's excellent 118 digital cable) and must say that the music is enjoyable, listenable and satisfying!And the internet radio is a real treat for me! At the end of the day its all about the music!
Best Regards
Dennis
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As for the PSU (and strictly from my experience and friends whose ears I trust), a good PSU will elevate the humble SB3 to heights that would favourably compare with an expensive CDP (and some might say, even reference players). I use a Paul Hynes' PSU (really small rectagular shunt regulator) and use the SB3's digital out via coaxial (Karl's excellent 118 digital cable) and must say that the music is enjoyable, listenable and satisfying!And the internet radio is a real treat for me! At the end of the day its all about the music!
Best Regards
Dennis
Funny....in a previous post I alluded to the fact that if I get silly some day I may order an 'after-market' power supply for the Duet. Maybe I'll order the CI Audio supply for $279. At that price, it would be worth the little experiment.
Keith
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Keith
If you do, be sure to share with us your experiences of the CIAudio PSU versus the stock power supply!
Best Regards
Dennis
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NewBuyer,
By cheapest I mean those priced accordingly, in the same category as SB3, so ~ > 500.00 if you want a figure.
A decent clock would cost as much as entire SB3.
BDA-1 and SB3 are far apart in every aspect.
I had SB3, I tried to make it a decent source by modifications and it was impossible, in the end I sold it.
SB3 is a computer gizmo and should be looked at as such, it is not a good digital source.
KeithA
I do not need to measure jitter, measurements were made and showed extremely high jitter on Toslink of devices I tried.
And I compared the performance, the difference and impact of higher jitter are easily heard.
So however you slice it, by measuring it or listening to it, the difference is enormous.
I am not calling people silly but the ideas, there is a difference, right? :wink:
For me it is silly to pair SB3 with BDA-1, as it would be silly to pair 15K speakers with 2K amp, or as is silly the argument that high bit rate of MP3 is undistinguishable from uncompressed signal.
Because it is silly, I would never get engaged in discussion with someone who says he/she never heard the difference, or red some article to that effect, because such discussion would be pointless.
There are actually people that do that, buy BDA-1 or any better executed DAC and feed it with MP3.
It is all question of priorities, if you do not care about the difference, simply because you do not care or you have not heard anything that may convince you otherwise, then by all means continue to do so, but do not get offended when someone tells people seeking advice to consider the real benefits and shortcomings of whatever device and technology is being discussed.
I do not care what UHF said, I heard SB3 on both of its digital interfaces, with and without linear regulated PSU, into several DACs, in my system, and have seen measurements.
SB3 is simply a computer toy, and not a good digital source.
Anything can be characterized as marginal difference, depends who is talking and from what perspective.
For example you can say there is a marginal difference between Bryston integrated amp and Bryston monoblocks, and they all sound the same. I beg to differ.
James,
I did lots of experimenting with different digital sources, transports, DACs.
No experienced listener is required, just resolute system so that differences are not masked, this is the main reason why people do not hear differences.
A few examples.
SB3 SPDIF measures somewhere around 400ps, TosLink around 800ps.
The difference is easily heard, no matter if any kind of upsamling is engaged or not.
Lynx L22 with claimed jitter of 150ps into Wadia 581i, compared to the same track cut to a CD and played from the tray (essentially tells you the difference between digital input where source is not slaved, signal is recovered through double PLL, and digital playback from tray where source is slaved to the clock from DAC).
This is as good comparison as you get, everything in the chain is the same.
The difference is day and night, all you need is a few seconds of a material with drums let’s say, from the tray there is speed, definition and control that is lacking from digital input. One may be very happy with digital input performance, but once the difference is heard it cannot be denied.
And this is not just any PC with Lynx L22, it is completely fanless (heat pipes and radiators), completely tuned up for a single purpose, digital playback, meaning OS footprint is as small as possible, all non essential HW disabled, professional tools from Steinberg used.
My point is that BDA-1 is well executed piece, as much as good as Wadia, from the engineering point of view, and there are obvious sonic benefits this engineering brings.
SB3 is a joke, it belongs together with MP3 players.
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SB3 is a computer gizmo and should be looked at as such, it is not a good digital source.
For me it is silly to pair SB3 with BDA-1...SB3 is simply a computer toy, and not a good digital source...
SB3 is a joke, it belongs together with MP3 players.
Sasha
I would be very interested to know what would be a smart (non-silly) good digital source to feed the BDA-1?
BTW, have you heard the SB3 digital out with a Paul Hynes' shunt regulated PSU? What PSUs have you tried? What kind of digital cables feeding the DAC?
Best Regards
Dennis
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Interesting...
I feed my BDA-1 using the SPDIF out from an unmodded SB Duet and have no complaints on the sound quality.
Sasha, what's your opinion or experience feeding the BDA-1 using USB?
-jim
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Dennis,
That is the question that made me do all this research and testing, what to feed DAC from (BDA-1 or anything else).
My present objective is to build a library of high resolution files (24/96 and 24/192), as it clearly sounds better than 16/44.1, so it has to be a PC based solution.
At present time if you want relatively inexpensive PC based digital source solution (~4K), it has to be Lynx card in PC.
This is not as good as reference transports but you do not get anything better at this time at reasonable cost. This could be improved further by isolating sound card in its own enclosure, and providing clean regulated power to the card. I have not tried it yet.
Other people took the path of reclocking the digital signal out of Lynx before sending it to DAC, using for example Apogee.
I am reluctant to invest more at this time into my PC since it seems that proper solution will be soon released in sufficient quantities from different manufacturers so that it is priced reasonably.
For example, look at solutions from Linn.
Conceptually it is the same as SB3, you have Ethernet as transport from storage, but it is executed in much more serious way (and priced accordingly). The whole idea is to have digital signal generation and of course conversion outside of hostile PC environment.
It seems to me that USB based solutions are dead end, none support higher resolution (and will not be able to with present state of affairs).
I have not tried Paul Hynes' PSU, mine was lab PSU from TekPower. Digital cables were numerous.
To give you an example of where SB3 stands in terms of performance, I also compared it to ~700.00 player used as digital source into the same external DAC (SPDIF from SB3 and SPDIF from CD player, same digital cable).
Big difference, player being far superior.
Here is suggestion.
Sign a petition to Bryston, ask them to develop their version of SB3/LinnDS and like transports, with properly engineered and executed boards, traces, PSU, regulation, etc., dare I say slaved to the clock from BDA-1, and you are done.
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Jim,
Have not looked at all into anything using USB as it does not support high resolution, what is one of my objectives.
There is a solution from Empirical Audio that supports 24/96, but it requires too much customization to achieve optimal performance.
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KeithA
I do not need to measure jitter, measurements were made and showed extremely high jitter on Toslink of devices I tried.
And I compared the performance, the difference and impact of higher jitter are easily heard.
So however you slice it, by measuring it or listening to it, the difference is enormous.
I am not calling people silly but the ideas, there is a difference, right? :wink:
For me it is silly to pair SB3 with BDA-1, as it would be silly to pair 15K speakers with 2K amp, or as is silly the argument that high bit rate of MP3 is undistinguishable from uncompressed signal.
Because it is silly, I would never get engaged in discussion with someone who says he/she never heard the difference, or red some article to that effect, because such discussion would be pointless.
There are actually people that do that, buy BDA-1 or any better executed DAC and feed it with MP3.
It is all question of priorities, if you do not care about the difference, simply because you do not care or you have not heard anything that may convince you otherwise, then by all means continue to do so, but do not get offended when someone tells people seeking advice to consider the real benefits and shortcomings of whatever device and technology is being discussed.
I do not care what UHF said, I heard SB3 on both of its digital interfaces, with and without linear regulated PSU, into several DACs, in my system, and have seen measurements.
SB3 is simply a computer toy, and not a good digital source.
Anything can be characterized as marginal difference, depends who is talking and from what perspective.
For example you can say there is a marginal difference between Bryston integrated amp and Bryston monoblocks, and they all sound the same. I beg to differ.
Offended :?
I can certainly guarantee you that I would never be offended about any discussion about audio. I actually enjoy the banter and the counter point conversations and I am open-minded enough to try anything. I certainly don't need the affirmation of others to support what I do. You've missed the boat on that assessment.
Read your response. It appears that you are the one offended that somebody out there has a different opinion than you.
Keith
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There are some very strange opinions here, but I guess we all have different ears, and equipment.
Stereophile used the SB3 wirelessly into a Krell dac and did not hear a difference between the SB3 digital out and a Krell Transport playing the same cd digital into the same dac.....
I have compared digital out of my Philips dvd 963SA dvd/cd/sacd player and SB3 digital out into the Bryston dac, and listening on Stax Signature II electrostatic headphones, and heard absolutely zero difference. This with the stock power supply.
I havent experimented with different power supplys because many people simply cant hear a clear difference, but anyone willing to test can just use a battery as a power supply, battery is supposed to be superiour to anything else anyway.
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Keith,
I am glad you are not, I am not either, we are simply arguing and exchanging ideas and experience, that is all.
I spend a lot of time and $ on this, trying to get performance as good as the one I have from very good players, and message I am trying to send is what my experience was with some of specific devices we are discussing.
If people have the same objectives as I do, build PC based digital source that will at least match top CD players and bring along the convenience of file system, then they should not waste time on SB3 and likes, been there, done that, not good by any measure.
If on the other hand you want background music, SB3 is good enough as almost anything else there.
Again, my point is that BDA-1 is very good piece, and you will not hear what it is capable of if it is fed from SB3 like sources.
I put my money where my mouth is, I sold my Wadia 581i SE and ordered BDA-1.
As soon as Bryston transport is released I believe I will buy it. For high resolution I will stick for now with my PC based solution feeding BDA-1.
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Keith,
I am glad you are not, I am not either, we are simply arguing and exchanging ideas and experience, that is all.
I spend a lot of time and $ on this, trying to get performance as good as the one I have from very good players, and message I am trying to send is what my experience was with some of specific devices we are discussing.
If people have the same objectives as I do, build PC based digital source that will at least match top CD players and bring along the convenience of file system, then they should not waste time on SB3 and likes, been there, done that, not good by any measure.
If on the other hand you want background music, SB3 is good enough as almost anything else there.
Again, my point is that BDA-1 is very good piece, and you will not hear what it is capable of if it is fed from SB3 like sources.
I put my money where my mouth is, I sold my Wadia 581i SE and ordered BDA-1.
As soon as Bryston transport is released I believe I will buy it. For high resolution I will stick for now with my PC based solution feeding BDA-1.
Sasha
My intent is not to argue about anything. I respect that your audio goal is likely way ahead of most and that it is valid, but to represent the digital feed of a Duet into a BDA-1 as "...not good by any measure" and "...(if) you want background muisic, SB3 is as good enough as almost anything else", IMHO, is a bit of an injustice. I've tried this and still do it, others on the forum have tried it and reviewers such as UHF Mag, Stereophile and Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity actually refer to it's useage in it's review of the BP-26DA. I'm not saying it's the best you can get, but I will contend that it is a good digital source with a lot of convenience. Can it be improved? Maybe? But your comments seem to imply that this setup is the equivalent of a table top radio for background music, which I think is just not correct. But again, no one is saying you are not hearing what you are hearing......it's just that many don't find the setup to be the embarrassment you allude to.
However, I wouldn't mind you explaining a part of your rationale to us, if you could.
You are claiming that the degradation on the digital signal from the Duet/SB3 is because of jitter. I believe Stereophile measured the jitter at 310 to 320ps, which I believe they even regard a low by audio standards. However, the BDA-1 reclocks the incoming signal, if I am correct, so that the residual jitter of the BDA-1 at about 115ps is really what we are talking about here. So, you are contending that the fact that the BDA-1 reclocks the incoming signal has no bearing on the jitter incoming from the Duet and the 320ps is what the DAC sees and impacts the audio quality of the D/A conversion? How does the jitter of the Duet's digital signal affect the D/A conversion if it is reclocked by the BDA-1?
Keith
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Hi Sasha,
I too am very confused about how/why you are hearing such significant differences when you tried an SB3 as a digital source. I have carefully tried it against other respected dedicated and PC-based transports (including the Lynx L22 and the Logitech Transporter etc) and several nice DACs, and the differences were not very significant at all - certainly nothing whatsoever like you are describing. Personally I have found the SB3 to be a very acceptable digital source - there are also very many in the SlimDevices community with stunningly good audio setups, that agree with this as well (some rather reluctantly).
I have very good hearing, but your hearing could be better than mine. Still I can't help but wonder if you may have experienced a difference due to an accidentally overlooked setting in the SqueezeCenter software instead? Something like forgetting to turn off ReplayGain etc (which I'm sure you double-checked, I'm just giving an example) can make quite an audible difference, and nobody is perfect - little things like that can slip past the best of us sometimes! :)
The latest DAC I've tried such transport comparisons with is the Benchmark DAC1 PRE (which personally I also find to be an outstandingly good piece of equipment). When Bryston starts making a DAC/Preamp unit that combines their volume controller with their DAC (as James as earlier considered in this forum), I will definitely be one of the first in line to buy one of those. :drool:
Well I guess it's just hard to explain sometimes, why/how some people hear differences that some others do not hear. For a few people, just simply knowing the SB3 is merely a $300 piece of equipment can influence their subjective listening impressions, especially if they have spent great sums of money on other very expensive equipment. I'm not saying that applies to you, but instead just pointing out how many other lurking variables can potentially come into play when making sighted comparisons.
Well fortunately we don't have to explain it all, or even agree! We can all just enjoy what we like. To each his own, and good luck with your audio endeavors Sasha! :D
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Wow, I think I need to have treatment to remove ear wax! We are dealing with some very widely differing views and I think it is more than just subjectivism that is in issue. If my SB3 (digital out to Paul Hynes' PSU) and excellent 118 digital cable to my Accuphase DAC or Bryston B100 SST DAC is making me very satisfied, one wonders how much better the sound/music would be with Sasha's recommendation of a Lynx card in one's pc! I took a look at Linn's line-up - very impressive indeed!
Well, in this hobby I have come to learn the hard way (by trial and error, mostly error) and have come to the conclusion that so long as one is happy and enjoying the music, that is all that matters! We climb mountains, only to find another peak ahead, and so on .... the climb to yet higher heights never ends but in practical terms I have learnt to draw my own line and say to myself that I can live with my system, no more quest for the highest peaks for me! I would rather spend my time now collecting CDs, vinyl, DVDs and simply sit back and enjoy the music!
Carpe Diem!Life is short!
Best Regards
Dennis
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Hi All,
One aspect I would like to point out is that an external DAC can 'reduce' jitter (on a percentage basis) coming from a source but it can not 'eliminate' it.
The higher the jitter coming from the source the higher it will be in the external DAC.
As to how much jitter it takes to negatively impose itself on the listener ... that's another question.
james
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Keith,
I am glad you are not, I am not either, we are simply arguing and exchanging ideas and experience, that is all.
I spend a lot of time and $ on this, trying to get performance as good as the one I have from very good players, and message I am trying to send is what my experience was with some of specific devices we are discussing.
If people have the same objectives as I do, build PC based digital source that will at least match top CD players and bring along the convenience of file system, then they should not waste time on SB3 and likes, been there, done that, not good by any measure.
If on the other hand you want background music, SB3 is good enough as almost anything else there.
Again, my point is that BDA-1 is very good piece, and you will not hear what it is capable of if it is fed from SB3 like sources.
I put my money where my mouth is, I sold my Wadia 581i SE and ordered BDA-1.
As soon as Bryston transport is released I believe I will buy it. For high resolution I will stick for now with my PC based solution feeding BDA-1.
Sasha
My intent is not to argue about anything. I respect that your audio goal is likely way ahead of most and that it is valid, but to represent the digital feed of a Duet into a BDA-1 as "...not good by any measure" and "...(if) you want background muisic, SB3 is as good enough as almost anything else", IMHO, is a bit of an injustice. I've tried this and still do it, others on the forum have tried it and reviewers such as UHF Mag, Stereophile and Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity actually refer to it's useage in it's review of the BP-26DA. I'm not saying it's the best you can get, but I will contend that it is a good digital source with a lot of convenience. Can it be improved? Maybe? But your comments seem to imply that this setup is the equivalent of a table top radio for background music, which I think is just not correct. But again, no one is saying you are not hearing what you are hearing......it's just that many don't find the setup to be the embarrassment you allude to.
However, I wouldn't mind you explaining a part of your rationale to us, if you could.
You are claiming that the degradation on the digital signal from the Duet/SB3 is because of jitter. I believe Stereophile measured the jitter at 310 to 320ps, which I believe they even regard a low by audio standards. However, the BDA-1 reclocks the incoming signal, if I am correct, so that the residual jitter of the BDA-1 at about 115ps is really what we are talking about here. So, you are contending that the fact that the BDA-1 reclocks the incoming signal has no bearing on the jitter incoming from the Duet and the 320ps is what the DAC sees and impacts the audio quality of the D/A conversion? How does the jitter of the Duet's digital signal affect the D/A conversion if it is reclocked by the BDA-1?
Keith
Keith,
Published measurements I have seen for SB3 were approximately 400ps and 800ps for SPDIF and TosLink respectively.
BDA-1 is not the only DAC that upsamples incoming signal, if this renders DACs jitter immune no one would ever put any effort into making transports as good as possible to minimize jitter.
It is false assumption that upsampling, done in any way, makes jitter go away, you can never get rid of it.
I have tried many sources, and they always make a difference.
To demonstrate how much difference proper implementation makes, and why I consequently say that SB3 is simply not executed well enough, I had tried one the same Lynx card in two different PCs, feeding one the same DAC in the same system.
One PC was purposely built, completely fanless, all non essential HW disabled, OS footprint as small as possible, the other PC being used for multiple tasks. So the advantage of purposely built one was obviously in less RFI/RMI and cleaner power, what in theory was to result in Lynx producing less jitter.
The difference in sound that DAC produced when fed from 2 PCs was enormous. From dedicated PC transient speed was apparent, imaging was much better, from universal PC everything was soft and diffused.
Now, someone may even like such soft and diffused sound, jitter can be manifested in many ways.
It would not come as surprise to me that someone may prefer jittery digital source.
Again, my message is that SB3 is an entry type of digital source, mid-fi if you will, while BDA-1 is gear of far better execution.
Example of another not so good digital source:
Of course I will feed my TV terminal into BDA-1 and let BDA-1 do conversion, it will sound probably better then conversion done in TV terminal, but that will not mean in any way that TV terminal is good digital source.
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Guys,
My ears are not golden, my hearing is not better than yours, and I am not the only one hearing the difference.
I can agree that SB3 is acceptable digital source, nothing more.
It is really simple, if you like SB3 then by all means be happy. I am simply answering questions asked on the forum, describing my experience and sharing information I have.
And price tag has no psychological effect on me, just read again what I sold to have BDA-1 in place of.
Dennis said it nicely, nothing more to add.
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Interesting thread... Sasha, I'm curious if you've taken a look at the Logitech Transporter compared to the SB3? Clearly SlimDevices, now Logitech, has been quite successful with it's SB3, Duet, Transporter and Boom. But, is their approach to streaming music viable for what you refer to as hi-end? How close is the Transporter to that?
I have to think that PC-based music streaming is still in it's infancy and am very hesitant to invest significant $$ just yet (although I have spent significant hours ripping & tagging CDs). Without doubt, many of us are streaming hard-disk based music one way or another and that invariably entails the need for a good DAC. Clearly the BDA-1 has set a new high-water mark. Can't wait to see where Bryston takes it as a preamp with volume control and analog inputs.
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Hi All,
One aspect I would like to point out is that an external DAC can 'reduce' jitter (on a percentage basis) coming from a source but it can not 'eliminate' it.
The higher the jitter coming from the source the higher it will be in the external DAC.
As to how much jitter it takes to negatively impose itself on the listener ... that's another question.
james
Hi James,
I trust the BDA-1 is designed to *greatly* reduce interface jitter and its effects, is this correct? :?:
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Hi All,
One aspect I would like to point out is that an external DAC can 'reduce' jitter (on a percentage basis) coming from a source but it can not 'eliminate' it.
The higher the jitter coming from the source the higher it will be in the external DAC.
As to how much jitter it takes to negatively impose itself on the listener ... that's another question.
james
Hi James,
I trust the BDA-1 is designed to *greatly* reduce interface jitter and its effects, is this correct? :?:
The simple answer is 'yes', but as usual nothing is that simple. It is 'Frequency' dependent and is a function of both the 'Digital Input Receiver' and the 'Sample Rate Converter'.
As I have said many times before though I think the success of our CD Player and now our DAC has much more to do with getting the overall package correct. Good digital design, good analog design, good power supply design etc. rather than singling out one specific number.
james
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Interesting thread... Sasha, I'm curious if you've taken a look at the Logitech Transporter compared to the SB3? Clearly SlimDevices, now Logitech, has been quite successful with it's SB3, Duet, Transporter and Boom. But, is their approach to streaming music viable for what you refer to as hi-end? How close is the Transporter to that?
I have to think that PC-based music streaming is still in it's infancy and am very hesitant to invest significant $$ just yet (although I have spent significant hours ripping & tagging CDs). Without doubt, many of us are streaming hard-disk based music one way or another and that invariably entails the need for a good DAC. Clearly the BDA-1 has set a new high-water mark. Can't wait to see where Bryston takes it as a preamp with volume control and analog inputs.
I have not tried Transporter, once I gave up on SB3 I did not look further in their line-up.
For some it may be relevant for some may not, but Logitech background is quite different from let’s say Bryston’s.
IMO Logitech’s approach is certainly viable, execution is not.
BTW, there are valid reasons why you would want BDA-1 in its present form and not cramped into pre-amp, this has been covered in a number of topics here.
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Hi All,
One aspect I would like to point out is that an external DAC can 'reduce' jitter (on a percentage basis) coming from a source but it can not 'eliminate' it.
The higher the jitter coming from the source the higher it will be in the external DAC.
As to how much jitter it takes to negatively impose itself on the listener ... that's another question.
james
Hi James,
I trust the BDA-1 is designed to *greatly* reduce interface jitter and its effects, is this correct? :?:
The simple answer is 'yes', but as usual nothing is that simple. It is 'Frequency' dependent and is a function of both the 'Digital Input Receiver' and the 'Sample Rate Converter'.
As I have said many times before though I think the success of our CD Player and now our DAC has much more to do with getting the overall package correct. Good digital design, good analog design, good power supply design etc. rather than singling out one specific number.
james
Hi James,
And I still agree with you, just like before. :)
While obviously no current DAC can completely eliminate all jitter, I believe that good modern DACs can virtually minimize any potential jitter effects to trivial audible significance. For instance, I am thinking that a modern DAC like the BDA-1, with its pulse transformer isolation / better clock & PSU / better ASR / better output stages / and various other superior design aspects, would certainly be much less sensitive to digital sources than the older MF X-DAC V3 (with approx. 220 - 400 ps measured jitter) that Sasha used with an SB3. In fact, I'd wager the performance of the BDA-1 would not be audibly hindered at all when fed by an SB3, and would sound wonderful. In fact, I might just have to buy (or borrow) a BDA-1 and find out for myself! :D
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Hi James,
And I still agree with you, just like before. :)
While obviously no current DAC can completely eliminate all jitter, I believe that good modern DACs can virtually minimize any potential jitter effects to trivial audible significance. For instance, I am thinking that a modern DAC like the BDA-1, with its pulse transformer isolation / better clock & PSU / better ASR / better output stages / and various other superior design aspects, would certainly be much less sensitive to digital sources than the older MF X-DAC V3 (with approx. 220 - 400 ps measured jitter) that Sasha used with an SB3. In fact, I'd wager the performance of the BDA-1 would not be audibly hindered at all when fed by an SB3, and would sound wonderful (has anybody actually tried this combo?). In fact, I might just have to buy (or borrow) a BDA-1 and find out for myself! :D
NewBuyer
I have the BDA-1 and I run a Squeezebox Duet exclusively as my digital feed and it works wonderfully. I will concede that there's a possibility that the sound can be improved on with attention to detail and possibly better sources, but the BDA-1 and Squeezebox is a capable front end. My contention all along is that the improvements would be marginal (the old 80/20 rule at worst).
In late 2008 a friend of mine loaned me his Aurum Acoustics Integris CDP unit to try out as I contemplated that unit myself.
http://www.aurumacoustics.com/integris_cdp.html
That is a world class unit by any measure and regarded by some as the best CD reproduction out there. I compared that to my Duet feeding the SP1.7 at the time. Did it sound different? Yes and I'd say overall better than my setup at the time. It probably betters my BDA-1 DAC now (in ways). But even the differences then were not 'huge' for me. But I'd hazard a guess that what I consider minmal improvement some consider large. Nothing wrong with that. The main reason I didn't go with the Aurum unit was that it incorporated a CD player in its design (which i didn't want) and the unit was/is about $14,000 USD.
But even after returning the Aurum I was still 100% happy with the Duet/Bryston combo....and that combo is made a little better now with the BDA-1 instead of using the SP1.7 as a DAC. My buddy would rather part with a kidney before he parted with the Aurum....and that's cool :wink:
This is all that I've been saying all along....the Squeezebox into the BDA-1 is a respectable unit. Maybe not the best, but cetainly not a lost cause from what I've heard.
Keith
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DEALER FEEDBACK:
Sent:Mon 1/5/2009 11:31 PM
From: D Ellis [dle.design@verizon.net]
Hi JT-
Here's some Bryston BDA-1 listening observations I would like to share:
From a technical perspective, I really didn't expect the new BDA-1 external DAC & an 'ol CD player combination to perform much differently than my previous top rated CD player. Well, my listening tests tell me differently. Essentially, the BDA-1 allows more of the emotional realism of music to come through. In spades...
Here's three independent observations:
- One listener ask me if I had an additional speaker in the middle because she was hearing so much sound between the two speakers. By the way, she has taken several courses in acoustic guitars and has a young set of musically trained ears.
- Another lady listened to one of her favorite songs and ended up in tears.
- Another listener said that he never heard the system sound this "real" before. Of special note, he has listened to the system in various configurations over the past few years and never said anything as complementary as this remark. Please note this listener is a hard core analog & tube warrior!
The well known Bryston "purity of sound" is in full force here with very natural tonality filled with rich harmonic density. The three dimensional "bloom" is especially noteworthy.
All music played through the BDA-1 has more liveness & presence that gets one much closer to the musical event. Interestingly, even some of my old dry sounding pop music like Bob Dylan and etc. have come to life. It is amazing how much more musically relate information is being retrieved via the BDA-1.
In summary, the BDA-1 external DAC is truly an outstanding overachiever, by any standards!
Regards-
DE
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Sasha
Out of curioisty, could you share with us the nature and type of your system? I reckon one needs to have an extremely revealing system to be able to hear the audible differences, however slight these differences may be.
Best Regards
Dennis
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Sasha
Out of curioisty, could you share with us the nature and type of your system? I reckon one needs to have an extremely revealing system to be able to hear the audible differences, however slight these differences may be.
Best Regards
Dennis
Last time I played with my PC and determined that even the claimed jitter of 150ps on Lynx was clearly audible and was messing up LF reproduction, in comparison to the same track played from the tray, the system was PMC IB2, Bryston 7B SST, BP-26, Wadia 581i SE.
Last time I played with SB3 and heard significant difference between its SPDIF/TosLink and SPDIF on a number of low end players, SB3 being the worst of all, I think (but not sure, it was some time ago) system was PMC IB2, Bryston 7B SST (or 4B SST or Linar class A), BP-26, MF X-DAC V3 and Assemblage 2.6, Yamaha 2500, Rotel 1072.
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I too hear a difference between my Duet (with and without the Channel Islands PS), my Marantz SA8260 and Arcam DV 79 players used as transports. The Marantz and Arcam are close, with the Duet noticeably inferior. Both are being fed into a Musical Fidelity triple stack (X-DACv3, X-psuV3 and X10V3 tube buffer) via spdif. My amp is a PrimaLuna Dialogue 1 and speakers are ACI Sapphire XL. This is a decent, but hardly uber hi-end set-up; still it is resolving enough to show the differences conclusively. The convenience of the Duet can't be beat, though! Time to get it modded....
Ajay
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Ajay, can you comment on the Duet with the CI PS versus stock - particularly when using an external Dac rather than that of the Duet?
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Please excuse my lack of knowledge here but I was wondering about this product for a while now. I own the Cambridge Audio 840C, 4B-ST, BP-20 and Martin Logan Quests. The reason I kept the 840C so far is because it is a fantastic sounding player for the money and also because I am not sure what the future holds for CD's.
My question is, would a DAC like this be a good add on even though my player already upsamples on its own or is this product better for other digital inputs? As I said, I am completely in the dark with these types of products.
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I believe the dac in your player is the same as in the Cambridge DacMagic, and I have only heard positive things about that.
But, I believe you might experience added resolution, "blackness" and a better bass with the Bryston dac. Some will tell you its "night and day", but I am a bit careful with statements since the law of diminished returns certainly counts for audio....
But I have another question, to those with a Transporter. How do you experience the difference between the Transporter dac sound and the Bryston dac sound?
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But I have another question, to those with a Transporter. How do you experience the difference between the Transporter dac sound and the Bryston dac sound?
Great question!
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Thank you Niels, I am also not a true believer in night and day differences in certain areas of audio. However, when I upgraded to Bryston the sound was very different to what I previously had and obviously the change was significant to me. Just wondering if I would also have the "significant" change as well with a DAC?
Yes the 840C player is very good but I have listened to the Bryston and liked it more just a question of what the future holds for CD's as I said.
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Hi ,
Would there be any significant difference between what upstream player (be it CD or DVD or universal) is used with the DAC-1 ?
Let's say , comparing between 2 respectable CD-players or DVD-players etc.
Thanks.
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SteveLim, I have a Meridian and $25 Yamaha plugged into the BDA-1. I like the sound better from the Meridian, but again, it is very slight. Company would not be able to tell the difference. With that said, I need to replace my cables going to the amp, so my cables might be the "field leveler". Trust me the cables I have on there are CHEAP. I just order some cables and they will be here next week. I will comment again once this is in place.
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HI All,
Back from Vegas hi-fi show.
Got a terrific review on the BDA-1 from Hi-Fi Choice Magazine while I was away.
I have the PDF of the complete review - 7 Meg- email me if you want a copy.
5 Stars - and we got the front cover!
james
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I guess I've had my BDA-1 for almost 2 weeks now. haven't had much time to sit back and listen to it as this is a busy time at work.
However, I had music on for a couple of hours last night while I was working (at 2:00 am). It sounded good to me on music I was familiar with when using the SP1.7 as a DAC.
It's a solid little piece of gear too.
keith
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HI All,
Have an English translation of a review on the BDA-1 from the French Magazine 'Sound and Image'.
PDF- is 2M
Email me at jamestanner@bryston.com
james
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I'm wondering whether the following has been experienced by anyone else and whether it is a cause for concern.
I've been experimenting with two different transports, so I've been turning the transports off and on and connecting and disconnecting them from the BDA-1. I probably have caused glitches at the digital audio input of the BDA-1 due to my turning the transport power on and off while the BDA-1 is in active mode (ie, not standby). Occasionally this causes the BDA-1 to get into a state in which it does not play anything, the sample rate LED's are all dark, and -- this is the weird part -- it ignores all presses of the Standby and input select buttons. It works fine after I remove the power plug for a few seconds.
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I'm wondering whether the following has been experienced by anyone else and whether it is a cause for concern.
I've been experimenting with two different transports, so I've been turning the transports off and on and connecting and disconnecting them from the BDA-1. I probably have caused glitches at the digital audio input of the BDA-1 due to my turning the transport power on and off while the BDA-1 is in active mode (ie, not standby). Occasionally this causes the BDA-1 to get into a state in which it does not play anything, the sample rate LED's are all dark, and -- this is the weird part -- it ignores all presses of the Standby and input select buttons. It works fine after I remove the power plug for a few seconds.
Hi Bob,
Sounds like the software has been contaminated - I can send you new software and it will prevent it from occurring again.
james
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Really? I've encountered times when I've had to unplug the BDA-1 to do a reset. This has always occured while using an optical connection from a digital TV. Different channels have differing sample rates. I just assumed it was a handshake issue and the DAC would lock up. Do I need to install new software?
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James,thanks for the english version of the BDA-1 (Sound and Image mag)superb review.
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Really? I've encountered times when I've had to unplug the BDA-1 to do a reset. This has always occured while using an optical connection from a digital TV. Different channels have differing sample rates. I just assumed it was a handshake issue and the DAC would lock up. Do I need to install new software?
Hi,
Yes the newest software has a more robust program so it will prevent any lockup if you are experiencing it. Latest software is November 18th 2008.
Need your serial number and where purchased - email me at jamestanner@bryston.ca
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Really? I've encountered times when I've had to unplug the BDA-1 to do a reset. This has always occured while using an optical connection from a digital TV. Different channels have differing sample rates. I just assumed it was a handshake issue and the DAC would lock up. Do I need to install new software?
Hi,
Yes the newest software has a more robust program so it will prevent any lockup if you are experiencing it. Latest software is November 18th 2008.
I have the update and James is correct -- my unit was occasionally locking up on me when using a rogers cable box as the digital source -- on each channel change it was unlocking/relocking to the spdif clock -- after quite a number of these, the BDA-1 could become unresponsive -- after the software update it was completely fixed and it has not had any problems since.
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Here is a guess and a strange question.
Could this “lockup” be caused by buffer underrun/overrun due to jittery source?
If so, I would rather have version that is as intolerant of incoming rate changes as possible, even at the expense of lockups, than have something that will compromise performance just so that is can work better with shitty digital sources.
I have tried TosLink on Rogers digital terminal, jitter pierces your ears, probably the worst signal I have ever encountered.
Can the “locking” version of BDA-1 software be obtained by those like me?
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Here is a guess and a strange question.
Could this “lockup” be caused by buffer underrun/overrun due to jittery source?
If so, I would rather have version that is as intolerant of incoming rate changes as possible, even at the expense of lockups, than have something that will compromise performance just so that is can work better with shitty digital sources.
I have tried TosLink on Rogers digital terminal, jitter pierces your ears, probably the worst signal I have ever encountered.
Can the “locking” version of BDA-1 software be obtained by those like me?
Hi Sasha,
Yes the older version of the software is available. The only change in the new software is there is a 1/2 second 'wait' before the BDA-1 locks on to the new signal. This prevents any 'locking' issues as you change sources -nothing to do with jitter issues.
james
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With all this debate about whether the "high" jitter SB3 and it's counterparts are worthy enough for a DAC like the BDA-1, has anyone tried putting a jitter control device (re-clocker) like a Monarchy DIP in between their transport/source and the BDA-1? Again, if you can get the jitter down, the BDA-1 is all the more able to reduce it even more. I can't really speak for the jitter of an SB3 except to say this: I own a Modwright Transporter, but before I went that direction I had a modded SB3 into an Ack Dac. When I installed a Monarchy DIP in between those two the sonics improved significantly...now that could be a mark against either the SB3 or the ability of the Ack Dac to handle even moderate jitter...dunno. Just know what I heard.
James, was the BDA-1 used at the Maggie Mini demo, or just the new BCD-1 player? The sound was great (for a small speaker), and I noticed the gear over by Mark's chair but wasn't sure if it was "just" the BCD-1 or if the DAC was employed too. I saw the pre there sitting next to the cd player, and no other box evident so i assume it was cd-to-pre. I ended up talking about other stuff with them and then it was time for another round of demos so we were escorted out ( :) ) before i could take an inventory. The amps are beautiful, BTW.
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With all this debate about whether the "high" jitter SB3 and it's counterparts are worthy enough for a DAC like the BDA-1, has anyone tried putting a jitter control device (re-clocker) like a Monarchy DIP in between their transport/source and the BDA-1? Again, if you can get the jitter down, the BDA-1 is all the more able to reduce it even more. I can't really speak for the jitter of an SB3 except to say this: I own a Modwright Transporter, but before I went that direction I had a modded SB3 into an Ack Dac. When I installed a Monarchy DIP in between those two the sonics improved significantly...now that could be a mark against either the SB3 or the ability of the Ack Dac to handle even moderate jitter...dunno. Just know what I heard.
James, was the BDA-1 used at the Maggie Mini demo, or just the new cd player? The sound was great (for a small speaker), and I noticed the gear over by Mark's chair but wasn't sure if it was a DAC or the pre sitting next to the cd player. I eneded up talking about other stuff with them and then it was time for another round of demos so we were escorted out ( :) ) before i coudl take an inventory. The amps are beautiful, BTW.
Hi Ted,
Thank you for your kind comments. The Magnepan setup was the 28B's the BCD-1 CD Player (only) and the BP-26/MPS-2 preamp with the Torus RM-20 isolation transformer.
james
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With all this debate about whether the "high" jitter SB3 and it's counterparts are worthy enough for a DAC like the BDA-1, has anyone tried putting a jitter control device (re-clocker) like a Monarchy DIP in between their transport/source and the BDA-1? Again, if you can get the jitter down, the BDA-1 is all the more able to reduce it even more. I can't really speak for the jitter of an SB3 except to say this: I own a Modwright Transporter, but before I went that direction I had a modded SB3 into an Ack Dac. When I installed a Monarchy DIP in between those two the sonics improved significantly...now that could be a mark against either the SB3 or the ability of the Ack Dac to handle even moderate jitter...dunno. Just know what I heard.
There is a guy on Audioasylum forum that is even more anal about jitter than I am, he used reclocker from Apogee to successfully minimize jitter from Lynx card.
Although in his case the source is quite better than SB3 and he used different DAC (dCS) which does not upsample, it still demonstrates what can be accomplished.
So you could probably hear benefits from reclocking SB3.
Good point though with the question on what to contribute effects of Monarchy DIP to, hard to say till you measure or compare to a number of other devices.
Best thing is to try it, the Demo is Everything indeed :D
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Is there any possibility that a future firmware update might add the ability to reverse the phase (polarity) by remote control?
It should be possible to implement without relays or other hardware changes because the CS4398 DAC chip has built in phase toggling via its control registers (register 3h, bits 5 & 6, per section 7.3.2 & 7.3.3 of the CS4398 spec sheet). Since the BDA-1 software already must include the step of initializing these control registers, it should not be difficult to modify the software to allow the user to toggle the setting while music is playing. (The CS4398 automatically ramps the volume down and up briefly when settings are changed to prevent pops or other glitches in the output.)
One user interface possibility would be to provide an option for the upsampling defeat button (on both the front panel and the remote) to perform phase reversal instead of upsampling defeat, with its LED indicating phase instead of upsampling status.
This would be a valuable feature for those of us who have phase-aligned loudspeakers such as Thiel and cannot afford a BP-26. (I have a Placette passive volume control.)
Also, I hope you include phase/polarity reversal via remote control in your upcoming product that combines a DAC and volume control.
Thanks for your consideration!
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Hi Bob,
Yes it is possible to reverse polarity but we would have to do a new version of the software. The problem as you say is how do you indicate it and how many people would for-go the upsample indication in favour of a polarity inversion indicator?
Also do you think polarity inversion (absolute phase reversal) is a feature most people would want or even use given the multi-miked recordings of today? I get calls all the time from BP26 customers asking "what the hell is this for"?
james
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I get calls all the time from BP26 customers asking "what the hell is this for"?
james
You took the words right out of my mouth...I've always wondered what the polarity thing meant :)
Keith
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I get calls all the time from BP26 customers asking "what the hell is this for"?
james
You took the words right out of my mouth...I've always wondered what the polarity thing meant :)
Keith
Hi Keith,
The concept of 'Absolute Phase' is that you maintain the integrity of the phase throughout the recorded and playback signal chain. So a positive impulse on the input of a component has a positive impulse at the output of the component. All Bryston gear is designed to maintain absolute phase throughtout the signal path.
Some components 'invert phase or reverse polarity' and therefore a 'positive impulse' at the input produces a 'negative impulse' at the output. In the recording studio's some engineers try to maintain a positive phase - non inverting polarity - recording by making sure that all the Mic's the Preamps and the recording equipment provides this absolute phase integrity. The problem is that with many of today's multi-miked recordings some of the instruments may be in absolute phase and some may be out of absolute phase. So unless the recording takes into account all the phase relationships of all the different microphones used and all the components in the recording signal path the chances of getting it correct is 50/50.
So how does this apply to me sitting in my home listening to Music you may ask? Lets say we are recording a drum. The drummer hits the bass drum and the drum skin moves outward (positive pressure) or forward - the Microphone picks up the sound wave and moves inward (negative pressure) - it then travels through the complete audio system and the speaker should then move outward to exactly replicate the positive pressure of the drum.
The absolute phase switch on the BP26 allows you to 'invert' the phase 180 degrees on BOTH channels. This is totally different than inverting phase on ONE channel which would then put the speakers "OUT OF PHASE" with each other - (no bass-no image etc.). Transients like that in brass and plucked instruments and sometimes voices will sound more 'in the room' and better defined if the absolute phase is correct. So when listening switch the phase button on the BP-26 and see if you can detect a difference.
Some CD's or Computers may invert phase so this just allows you to decide which position sounds the best with a given recording.The main problem is you have no way of knowing unless the recording engineer states on the recording or CD that they have maintained Absolute Phase throughout. - the old Sheffield Records made a point of mentioning this on the record jacket.
james
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Hello James,so generally an out of phase system might sound like what?Thanks
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Hello James,so generally an out of phase system might sound like what?Thanks
You mean 'out of Phase' or 'out of Absolute phase'
james
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Hello James,so generally an out of phase system might sound like what?Thanks
Interesting question.
I hear a slight difference when absolute phase is inverted, but I cannot describe it, it is kind of an impression that “something has changed a little”, but what…
And I cannot tell which one is “correct” or pick one from the other, I would certainly fail in blind test.
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In regard to out of phase, it is very obvious to me, it makes my eyes cross (really :D).
It would seem that some people do not hear it, I had a couple of auditions where one channel was out of phase, yet no one, including the dealer, could not hear it and insisted everything was good, till hours later they were proven wrong.
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For now just out of phase is good enough,but i think you mentioned it above with the generally weak bass and vocals,thanks again.Whats funny is how some clearly hear and some dont.
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delete
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For now just out of phase is good enough,but i think you mentioned it above with the generally weak bass and vocals,thanks again.Whats funny is how some clearly hear and some dont.
Hi,
If the Left speaker vs the Right speaker is 'OUT OF PHASE' - meaning there is 180 degree phase shift between the two speakers then the whole concept of 'STEREO' three demensional sound goes to hell in a hand basket- these rules also apply to 7.1 and 5.1 setups.
The sound will lack bass, it will not have the ability to localize 'solid' images in space, or create a soundfield between, behind and beyond the boundries of the speakers. It will sound disjointed and there is a kind of wierd pressure on your ears.
The problem is usually quite obvious in a straight forward system but when you get to biwired and biamped systems or multi-channel systems it can be more subtle because it may be just the tweeter or the mid that are out of phase rather than the more obvious woofer.
The cure is to invert the positive and negative (black/red) speaker leads at ONE speaker and see if things get better or worse.
james
PS - as for 'some hear and some don't' bummrush, its like many things in life -you have to have experience and train yourself how to detect these issues. It's a learning experience.
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In regard to out of phase, it is very obvious to me, it makes my eyes cross (really :D).
It would seem that some people do not hear it, I had a couple of auditions where one channel was out of phase, yet no one, including the dealer, could not hear it and insisted everything was good, till hours later they were proven wrong.
The phase switch of course doesn't address this; what you describe is a true setup problem with one red/black connection likely black/red. A phase switch addresses absolute reverse polarity. I insisted Dan Wright included one on his first pre (cuz I can hear absolute phase reversal fairly easily) and he's had one ever since. However, although I now have remote phase inversion capability I seldom use it (like almost never) cuz as mentioned earlier, unless the recording uses minimalist microphone setup, the chances of multiple mic's and cables and limiters and preamps being all in the same phase is greatly reduced.....it's become a nit for me now. I've heard pre's without one and don't list it as a prerequisite any more. Nice to have, not need to have.
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James, I do find that correct phase makes a difference on 15 or 20 percent of my CD's. On those CD's, the correct phase is more lively and spacious; the wrong phase is somewhat muffled. For those CD's, phase reversal makes a much bigger difference than whether upsampling is engaged.
When you did your joint demo's with Thiel at various trade shows in the last few years, did the Thiel reps ever express any interest in flipping the phase switch on the BP-26? If not, that would seem an implicit admission that Jim Thiel's efforts to achieve phase-aligned loudspeakers are pointless.
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It would be nice to have the option, if not difficult to implement. Those who do not need, or care, are free to ignore.
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HI All,
Have an English translation of a review on the BDA-1 from the French Magazine 'Sound and Image'.
PDF- is 2M
Email me at jamestanner@bryston.com
james
http://www.audioadvisor.com/pdf/BDA_1_DACReview.pdf
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Nice review -- it's a shame he didn't realize that he could have listened to the 24/96 tracks with no down sampling or resampling merely by plugging an optical toslink cable into his mac-mini to connect it to the BDA-1, and using the audio/midi control panel to set the digital output to 24 bit, 96Khz.
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Nice review -- it's a shame he didn't realize that he could have listened to the 24/96 tracks with no down sampling or resampling merely by plugging an optical toslink cable into his mac-mini to connect it to the BDA-1, and using the audio/midi control panel to set the digital output to 24 bit, 96Khz.
Hi Ian,
He was so impressed with the BDA-1 he purchased it for the Magazines testing lab so I will pass on your suggestion-maybe a follow up review is in the cards?
james
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The BDA-1 in its new home....some pretty good other Bryston /Torus representation as well :thumb:
(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/4664/imgp5188th0.jpg)
Keith
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Nice System!
Are you using a Cambrige 840 CD player with your BDA1? Isn't that a sideways move?
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No, he is using the Squeezebox....ha ha. aa :thumb:
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Nice System!
Are you using a Cambrige 840 CD player with your BDA1? Isn't that a sideways move?
The Cambridge CD player (it's actually one of the lower versions, 540C) is what I was using for a transport before I got the Squeezebox (Duet & Classic). It's still in my system for times when I want to play a CD that's not yet ripped to my hard drive (for example, if someone brings a CD over for me to try out).
It is turned on today (maybe the 2nd or 3rd time in a year :o) since I was playing some new CDs I got for Christmas that are not ripped to my hard drive. Both the CD player and Squeezebox feed the BDA-1 as transports. The CD player is not being used analogue. 99.9999999999999% percent of the time I use the Squeezebox. The Squeezebox sits atop the little white cube on top of the stand. After today, the CD player may not be used for another year :lol:
Keith
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Nice System!
Are you using a Cambrige 840 CD player with your BDA1? Isn't that a sideways move?
Why would it be a sideways move?
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Nice System!
Are you using a Cambrige 840 CD player with your BDA1? Isn't that a sideways move?
Why would it be a sideways move?
Just a guess........
I suspect since if it was the 840C, many people view that particular player as a 'giant killer' in it's own right. So, if I had a 840C and upgraded to the BDA-1, many people would see the quality as comparable. The 840C at US$1,599 has gotten some pretty good reviews. Hence, a sideways upgrade or no real increase in audio quality.
Keith
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Correct.
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Nice System!
Are you using a Cambrige 840 CD player with your BDA1? Isn't that a sideways move?
Why would it be a sideways move?
Just a guess........
I suspect since if it was the 840C, many people view that particular player as a 'giant killer' in it's own right. So, if I had a 840C and upgraded to the BDA-1, many people would see the quality as comparable. The 840C at US$1,599 has gotten some pretty good reviews. Hence, a sideways upgrade or no real increase in audio quality.
Keith
I see. I don't. The 840C is made in China. Not something that I'd want. I'd rather spend my money on the Canadian handcraftsmanship that Bryston provides. Also, is the analog circuitry and the transformers comparable to the BDA-1? I don't believe so.
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I see. I don't. The 840C is made in China. Not something that I'd want. I'd rather spend my money on the Canadian handcraftsmanship that Bryston provides. Also, is the analog circuitry and the transformers comparable to the BDA-1? I don't believe so.
Absolutely. That's why we are here :wink:
Keith
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Cool. I'm glad you agree. 8)
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Cool. I'm glad you agree. 8)
But I also see nothing wrong with the Cambridge gear. The little player I have is solid.
Keith
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KeithA nice set-up :thumb:
James...I just got your PDF on the BDA-1....thank you....I sent an email to Shane(HiFi Hawaii) and he says your DAC is "awesome". It looks like my shortlist for a Dac just got shorter. It looks like my time frame for a Dac will be about April.... Tax time(hoping for a refund) I know that's a couple of months away from now but how is the backlog looking now for the BDA-1? weeks? month?
One more question...I'm curious on the amount of people ordering the black or the silver faceplate? :scratch: I'm partial to the silver myself :drool:
Thanks again James :thumb:
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KeithA nice set-up :thumb:
James...I just got your PDF on the BDA-1....thank you....I sent an email to Shane(HiFi Hawaii) and he says your DAC is "awesome". It looks like my shortlist for a Dac just got shorter. It looks like my time frame for a Dac will be about April.... Tax time(hoping for a refund) I know that's a couple of months away from now but how is the backlog looking now for the BDA-1? weeks? month?
One more question...I'm curious on the amount of people ordering the black or the silver faceplate? :scratch: I'm partial to the silver myself :drool:
Thanks again James :thumb:
Hi Frisco,
About a month with a new order.
Silver sells about 2 to 1 and 17 inch to 19 inch about 3 to 1 (I like the 19 inch but that's my pro side speaking)
james
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Interesting review of the BDA-1 here;
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64204.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64204.0)
-- Ian.
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Not bad.
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Jim,
Have not looked at all into anything using USB as it does not support high resolution, what is one of my objectives.
There is a solution from Empirical Audio that supports 24/96, but it requires too much customization to achieve optimal performance.
I was wandering if anyone has tried partnering Empirical audio's Turbo 2 Offramp into the BDA-1? Giving that the offramp passes 24/96 resolution, it might be a nice combo.
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Hi james,
why is the USB input limited to 48/16 ? is it due to UBS 1.0 , could be be better with USB 2.0 ? i tried a 96Khz / 24 bits linn file but unfortunately i noticed that the input led was set to 48K.
I got a BDA-1 for testing during the christmas hollidays: I use an Audionet Art V2 integrated CD player (+BP26 + 4BSST). I noticed a wider soundtstage but the BDA is also also a little bit dryer compared to the audionet (may be due to different cables for XLR and RCA connection). The upsampling facility is for me clearly audible and contribute to the wider soundstage.
A many others I would like to use BDA-1 as a maily a way to play files with resolution higher than a CD : regarding the input connectors what are the different possible sources.
Phurbag
Hi Phurbag,
Correct the USB is version 1 (48/16) and will be updated to version 2 once the new chips are available.
44.1K/16bit is CD quality so that is still the case with the USB input.
All the other inputs are 192/24 capable and most quality sound cards have COAX or AES/EBU outputs which will give you native 192/24.
The thing to remember here though is not to get too caught up in resolution bits -- as with our CD Player -- the main advantage and the reason we are getting such kick-ass reviews on the CD Player and the DAC is because the digital stage is state of the art but so to is the Class A analog stages and power supply technology around the DAC's.
james
I am really impressed with ability to toggle between 16 and 24 bit resolution. I've always been under the impression that the higher sample rates have been better. But after listening to what u guys have done around native 48/16 bit sample rate its shaken my preconceptions. Its really a statement on what James said in the quote above regarding the power supply and analogue circuits employed. As much as I like the upsampled rate i find the bypassed rate to be very enjoyable. To me the leading edges and transients are more analogue sounding compared to the higher sampled rate. Its like "IN YO FACE Wadia, Meridian.... listen to what we can do with just 16 bits"...lol
Gratz
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My BDA1 has arrived today (Serial No.105).
I am no expert in digital gadgets but first impression is OH LA LA...
My digital chain looks like this: iPod 160Gb - Wadia transport 170i - BDA1
This was my first contact with iPod and Co. and I was stunned.
Three of my friends have been listening to this and (blind test) guessing what was playing, BCD 1 or above mentioned components.
The difference was so little that success rate at guessing was below 70%.
Tomorrow I will try laptops (Mac and PC).
My tonight` s conclusion was that mainly DAC determines the final sound quality.
And what a DAC this BDA 1 is!
Bryston guys Bravo for you once again! :thumb:
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Hi All,
Another FIVE STAR review on the Bryston External DAC.
http://whathifi.com/Review/Bryston-BDA-1/
james
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Bryston BDA-1 External DAC got the front cover of HI-FI Choice - not to mention a great review.
http://bryston.com/pdfs/09/hfc0902-bda1.pdf
james
PS - it's a BIG file - 7M
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What is the canadian MSRP?
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What is the canadian MSRP?
\
Currently $1995 but soon to change do to currency fluctuations.
james
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I was wandering if anyone has tried partnering Empirical audio's Turbo 2 Offramp into the BDA-1? Giving that the offramp passes 24/96 resolution, it might be a nice combo.
I am doing just that (I have the new Turbo3). I have not yet done a direct comparison with the BDA-1's USB input, but the sound I'm getting now via the Offramp is wonderful. The BDA-1 is a remarkable DAC. I'm surprised the buzz about is not louder.
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I was wandering if anyone has tried partnering Empirical audio's Turbo 2 Offramp into the BDA-1? Giving that the offramp passes 24/96 resolution, it might be a nice combo.
I am doing just that (I have the new Turbo3). I have not yet done a direct comparison with the BDA-1's USB input, but the sound I'm getting now via the Offramp is wonderful. The BDA-1 is a remarkable DAC. I'm surprised the buzz about is not louder.
Hi drubin,
I would really be interested in your feedback regarding the Turbo vs the sraight in USB on the BDA-1. We do not convert to SPDIF on our USB input but leave it as native I2S and then upsample the signal from there.
If I understand the Turbo 3 it takes the 44/16 and upsamples it to 96/24 then outputs it to SPDIF?
james
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Empirical Audio licenses the firmware for the TAS1020 USB receiver from Centrance. Centrance uses the "adaptive" mode in which the PLL in the USB receiver adapts to the clock rate from the computer's USB output.
http://centrance.com/licensing/clients.shtml
Wavelength Audio (Gordon Rankin) wrote firmware for the TAS1020 that instead uses the "asynchronous" mode in the TAS1020 USB receiver in which the USB receiver is clocked by the fixed frequency, low jitter clock from the DAC chip. It uses the input data buffer of the USB receiver to hold bursts of data from the computer's USB output, and it commands the computer to send data to keep the buffer full.
Ayre licensed Gordon Rankin's firmware for their upcoming USB DAC. In Ayre's white paper, the section "A Step Forward" describes the clocking method previously used by Rankin and still used by Empirical Audio and Centrance. The section "A New Era" on the last page describes the new async method.
http://www.ayre.com/PDF/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf
I hope that Bryston discusses a possible license with Gordon Rankin before deciding on its next upgrade to the USB receiver.
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Empirical Audio licenses the firmware for the TAS1020 USB receiver from Centrance. Centrance uses the "adaptive" mode in which the PLL in the USB receiver adapts to the clock rate from the computer's USB output.
http://centrance.com/licensing/clients.shtml
Wavelength Audio (Gordon Rankin) wrote firmware for the TAS1020 that instead uses the "asynchronous" mode in the TAS1020 USB receiver in which the USB receiver is clocked by the fixed frequency, low jitter clock from the DAC chip. It uses the input data buffer of the USB receiver to hold bursts of data from the computer's USB output, and it commands the computer to send data to keep the buffer full.
Ayre licensed Gordon Rankin's firmware for their upcoming USB DAC. In Ayre's white paper, the section "A Step Forward" describes the clocking method previously used by Rankin and still used by Empirical Audio and Centrance. The section "A New Era" on the last page describes the new async method.
http://www.ayre.com/PDF/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf
I hope that Bryston discusses a possible license with Gordon Rankin before deciding on its next upgrade to the USB receiver.
Hi Bob,
Thanks, that was informative. Does it look like USB will eventually be capable of 192/24 at some point?
james
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If I understand the Turbo 3 it takes the 44/16 and upsamples it to 96/24 then outputs it to SPDIF?
I don't think it upsamples, though I am not sure. However, it will pass 24/94 from your computer, which the BDA-1 will not via USB. It outputs to your choice of SPDIF, AES/EBU or I2S. I'm using SPDIF out to the BDA-1.
In answer to your other question, James, Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio says that 24/192 is indeed possible via USB and he hope to have something implemented this year.
I agree with Bob Stern in recommending that you look at Gordon Rankin's technology. As well as Steve Nugent's.
Dan
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According to Gordon Rankin, 192 KHz requires USB 2 plus a further enhancement called "USB Audio Device Class 2". The streaming audio controller chips from TI are only USB 1.1. Furthermore, Gordon says that only Mac OS X supports USB Audio Device Class 2; Windows and Linux do not.
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=45489
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=43493
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=45421
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=44280
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Well it certainly is going to be interesting as we move forward.
I was speaking with a well respected digital engineer the other day and his opinion was that Ethernet was the way forward for transferring hi-res digital files and (this blew me away) the software controlling the interfaces are far more important for quality that the hardware.
The pro market which has been developing and working with computer audio for many years and according to him are way ahead of the so called 'prosumer' (his words) products currently on the market.
Interesting times indeed.
james
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I was speaking with a well respected digital engineer the other day and his opinion was that Ethernet was the way forward for transferring hi-res digital files and (this blew me away) the software controlling the interfaces are far more important for quality that the hardware.
This relates to your previous posts on the subject of whether Bryston should develop a music server product. The problem with Ethernet is that, unlike USB, no computer has built-in capability of streaming music via Ethernet without installing server software, such as the Logitech Slim Server, on the computer. (The "Music Vault" music server that was popular at CES is merely a Windows computer with a copy of Slim Server installed.)
The disadvantage of server software is that the user is limited to the music library interface built into the client software available for that specific server software, whereas with USB the user can select any music player software he wants. In particular, most users seem to prefer the interface of the iTunes music player over the Logitech server/client.
A few companies such as Olive, Sooloos and Sonic Studio (Amarra) have made a huge investment in developing their own server/client software with an improved user interface. Alternatively, someone could offer an improved user interface by developing an improved client for the public domain Slim Server. However, such software development would seem risky for Bryston in view of the rapidly changing environment.
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Well it certainly is going to be interesting as we move forward.
I was speaking with a well respected digital engineer the other day and his opinion was that Ethernet was the way forward for transferring hi-res digital files and (this blew me away) the software controlling the interfaces are far more important for quality that the hardware.
The pro market which has been developing and working with computer audio for many years and according to him are way ahead of the so called 'prosumer' (his words) products currently on the market.
Interesting times indeed.
james
James,
Were there any specific pro market products (being ahead of prosumer products) mentioned in your conversation?
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Well it certainly is going to be interesting as we move forward.
I was speaking with a well respected digital engineer the other day and his opinion was that Ethernet was the way forward for transferring hi-res digital files and (this blew me away) the software controlling the interfaces are far more important for quality that the hardware.
The pro market which has been developing and working with computer audio for many years and according to him are way ahead of the so called 'prosumer' (his words) products currently on the market.
Interesting times indeed.
james
James,
Were there any specific pro market products (being ahead of prosumer products) mentioned in your conversation?
Hi Sasha,
No specfic products mentioned just the fact that custom software was required to take hi-res audio playback to the next level. What is out there is not considered hi-end according to my conversations.
james
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James and the rest of the gang,
Bob emailed me yesterday so I figure I would clear up a few things about USB.
First if your willing to write drivers for all os's then USB is wide open. I did this for years and would rather not do it again. Therefore I like to use what is called the Native drivers.
Now there is USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 but really when we talk audio it is Class 1 or Class 2 that really makes a difference. Class 1 was the basic audio specification which includes all rates up to 102,3K sampling rate. Why? Because the Class 1 spec says that an audio frame will happen ounce ever 1ms or greater. The specification says only 1023 bytes per frame is allowed thereby setting the max rate to 102,3K.
First the Class 2 Audio spec is only supported under MAC OSX 10.5.x and greater. There is no present plans to do Class 2 on Windows or Linux, though I am betting within a year from now that this will happen.
The big problem is that to get to xx/192 (I say xx as I am working on the ESS part and have 32/96 working and should have 32/192 soon) you need both High Speed USB 2.0 and Class 2. In the Class 2 audio spec you can now use what are called sub frames. This allows you to basically send a sub frame every 146uS which means you can pass some serious data.
The big difference and something that I have been working on for like the last 5 years is the jitter is not really understood that much. I have been saying the following and testing seems to back it up that the use of upsamplers or FIFO reclocking devices only act as like a low pass filter to jitter. You can pour though JA's testing and see that this is the case in many of the USB input tests the jitter is significantly higher than the SPDIF inputs on the same dac. I believe that the damage is done before the upsamplers and FIFO reclocking systems and that not all of this is removed or can be removed.
So we basically have two types of USB Interface for audio ASYNC and Adaptive. With Async you also have PLL generated clocks (not good) or low jitter clocks that are connected at the dac and feed back to the USB controller (TAS1020 or others) and that clock is used to generate the Bit Clock and the Word Clock as well as clock out the data.
As an example here is some jitter numbers I did using the Wavecrest jitter measurement system on Word Clock. I used the Faber Acoustics Oscillator (Fs=44.1K) as the basis for the stream sending a 1KHz Sine wave to the unit under test. FYI Word Clock is always used for jitter measurements as it will always be the worst case and this does not reflect the overall jitter of the system as most current chips do have a fair amount of jitter rejection. But this is measured at the output of the Word Clock for the following chips and or software:
TAS1020 standard Adaptive Word Clock Jitter 2838ps
TAS1020 using my slow Adaptive code 1131ps
TI/BB PCM2706/07 I2S output Word Clock 3743ps
TAS1020 using PLL derived asynchronous output I2S 433ps
TAS1020 using low jitter MCLK input at 11.2896MHz 73.2ps
The main problem with Adaptive is that in a sense you are changing the clock in the USB controller every 1ms. In the TI reference code for the TAS1020 this is set to 4ms which makes it better and why you see and improvement from 3743ps to 2838ps but if the Soft PLL is made to work a little smarter you can see it can be improved even more to 1131ps. But you can really see that removing the 1ms change required to meet the Adaptive USB and going to Asynchronous USB that you really start to get into acceptable territory.
I am not really a fan of upsampler chips because the math units in these are always compromised. The good thing is that the computer upsamplers use floating point and have a ton more processing power and to me always sound better. But as you can see from above, reduction of the jitter going to the dac chip would be a requirement for any of the adaptive USB setups to meet High End standards.
James if you have any questions on USB don't hesitate to ask. I have been pretty open with my information. I think USB is really the only interface capable of High End Audio. Sure Ethernet or any connection will work but then you have to write drivers. Firewire really could have been it but they sat on their laurels for years and now even Apple is taking it off their product line.
Well back to work, thanks
Gordon
Wavelength Audio
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^
Hey Gordon - What can I say - great piece!
thanks,
james
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Great stuff, Gordon.
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James and the rest of the gang,
Bob emailed me yesterday so I figure I would clear up a few things about USB.
First if your willing to write drivers for all os's then USB is wide open. I did this for years and would rather not do it again. Therefore I like to use what is called the Native drivers.
Now there is USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 but really when we talk audio it is Class 1 or Class 2 that really makes a difference. Class 1 was the basic audio specification which includes all rates up to 102,3K sampling rate. Why? Because the Class 1 spec says that an audio frame will happen ounce ever 1ms or greater. The specification says only 1023 bytes per frame is allowed thereby setting the max rate to 102,3K.
First the Class 2 Audio spec is only supported under MAC OSX 10.5.x and greater. There is no present plans to do Class 2 on Windows or Linux, though I am betting within a year from now that this will happen.
The big problem is that to get to xx/192 (I say xx as I am working on the ESS part and have 32/96 working and should have 32/192 soon) you need both High Speed USB 2.0 and Class 2. In the Class 2 audio spec you can now use what are called sub frames. This allows you to basically send a sub frame every 146uS which means you can pass some serious data.
The big difference and something that I have been working on for like the last 5 years is the jitter is not really understood that much. I have been saying the following and testing seems to back it up that the use of upsamplers or FIFO reclocking devices only act as like a low pass filter to jitter. You can pour though JA's testing and see that this is the case in many of the USB input tests the jitter is significantly higher than the SPDIF inputs on the same dac. I believe that the damage is done before the upsamplers and FIFO reclocking systems and that not all of this is removed or can be removed.
So we basically have two types of USB Interface for audio ASYNC and Adaptive. With Async you also have PLL generated clocks (not good) or low jitter clocks that are connected at the dac and feed back to the USB controller (TAS1020 or others) and that clock is used to generate the Bit Clock and the Word Clock as well as clock out the data.
As an example here is some jitter numbers I did using the Wavecrest jitter measurement system on Word Clock. I used the Faber Acoustics Oscillator (Fs=44.1K) as the basis for the stream sending a 1KHz Sine wave to the unit under test. FYI Word Clock is always used for jitter measurements as it will always be the worst case and this does not reflect the overall jitter of the system as most current chips do have a fair amount of jitter rejection. But this is measured at the output of the Word Clock for the following chips and or software:
TAS1020 standard Adaptive Word Clock Jitter 2838ps
TAS1020 using my slow Adaptive code 1131ps
TI/BB PCM2706/07 I2S output Word Clock 3743ps
TAS1020 using PLL derived asynchronous output I2S 433ps
TAS1020 using low jitter MCLK input at 11.2896MHz 73.2ps
The main problem with Adaptive is that in a sense you are changing the clock in the USB controller every 1ms. In the TI reference code for the TAS1020 this is set to 4ms which makes it better and why you see and improvement from 3743ps to 2838ps but if the Soft PLL is made to work a little smarter you can see it can be improved even more to 1131ps. But you can really see that removing the 1ms change required to meet the Adaptive USB and going to Asynchronous USB that you really start to get into acceptable territory.
I am not really a fan of upsampler chips because the math units in these are always compromised. The good thing is that the computer upsamplers use floating point and have a ton more processing power and to me always sound better. But as you can see from above, reduction of the jitter going to the dac chip would be a requirement for any of the adaptive USB setups to meet High End standards.
James if you have any questions on USB don't hesitate to ask. I have been pretty open with my information. I think USB is really the only interface capable of High End Audio. Sure Ethernet or any connection will work but then you have to write drivers. Firewire really could have been it but they sat on their laurels for years and now even Apple is taking it off their product line.
Well back to work, thanks
Gordon
Wavelength Audio
Gordon,
Could you please elaborate more on “the use of upsamplers or FIFO reclocking devices only act as like a low pass filter to jitter”?
Does this mean that jitter attenuation with upsampling/reclocking is effective in higher audio frequencies only, while it does almost nothing in lower audio frequencies?
Reason I am asking is that my experience has been that it is nearly impossible to get good bass reproduction with multi-box solutions (source of any kind > DAC, any transport), source must have extremely low jitter, and it seems there is nothing that beats megabuck single box solution in this aspect of performance (player where there is no clock on optical transport).
In other words, relatively low jitter will give you decent higher frequency performance, but you must send extremely low jitter signal to DAC to get good bass performance.
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Sasha,
By low pass I mean that it acts more like a filter, not like a real low pass filter.
For example you can look at most of the USB dacs that have been tested in Stereophile. Most of these have SPDIF inputs also which tested allot better than the USB input. All of the companies that use reclocking FIFO's and upsamplers believe that this approach will rid the jitter from the receiver (be it SPDIF, USB or others) and that the only remaining jitter will be that of the intrinsic jitter of the dac chip. If this were true then why is it that with each of these Adaptive USB/SPDIF dacs is the SPDIF jitter significantly less.
Example... well known dac with SPDIF/USB TAS1020 Adaptive code for USB 24/96 (@44.1) WCLK jitter again 2838ps, SPDIF WCLK jitter 673ps, system jitter for USB was 250ps and SPDIF was 150ps.
If it were true that the upsampler would rid itself of the jitter from the receiver then the system jitter should have been the same, or at least close.
Now the reason I think the damage is done between the receiver and the upsampler is that the WCLK jitter out of the upsampler was almost the same for both SPDIF and USB. But with this drastic of a difference the only place the damage could have been done was between the receiver and the upsampler. That is why I think it is critical for applications to think of jitter at the source were it begins. Not to try and fix it later.
Thanks
Gordon
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Gordon,
Excellent posts.
I'm interested when you say that the math units in the resamplers are always compromised. This is likely true, but the compromises are likely not terribly meaningful for this particular application (mainly applying a FIR filter to fixed point data). For software resamplers and audio processing, I usually see them using single precision float for the computation -- this is adequate for 16 and 20 bit samples, but not quite what you need for 24 bit. (remember that float has 23 bits of fraction precision, and while IEEE754 claims no more than 0.5 ulp error, floating point allows for all sorts of problems with numerical stability -- Have a good read of the following http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html -- "What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic" -- and I would add "And what almost None of them Actually Do"). Given the published specs for the Burr Brown resampler that bryston is using, and looking at their patent covering the technique (7262716), it looks like that math is being done in fixed point with at least 28 bits of precision (at one point in their math (sample rate estimation) they're holding 36 bits of precision as the result of the only divide operation in their pipeline). From the math they're doing -- mainly just multiplies, adds and subtracts, this should guarantee no more than 0.5ulp error in a 24 bit integer result, and probably less. This is significantly better than what single precision float would produce. (I'm not such a great believer in using the FP units when you're dealing with fixed point data -- the pitfalls of floating point can be *very* easy for the unwary to fall victim to, and are still all too easy for those knowlegable about FP math to get caught up by as well. So implementing an algorithm like this using double precision floats can still cause problems -- it's best to remain in fixed point for this sort of thing.)
The quality of resampling has been highly variable -- recent versions of windows and OS/X are quite good these days, but older versions (Windows XP in partucular) have been pretty bad. It's a hard problem to get right, and very easy to screw up.
But it looks like TI got it right with the SRC4392. And from listening to my BDA-1, it sure sounds like it as well.
-- Ian.
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Here's a mathematical analysis that supports Gordon's statement that sample rate conversion greatly reduces, but does not eliminate, jitter. Hence, it is best to minimize jitter at the interface between the source (transport or computer) and DAC.
Jitter filtering is less effective at low frequencies. See the graph in Figure 9 and the conclusions on the last two pages, under the heading "AASRCs and Jitter".
The section beginning on page 7 addresses Ian's point regarding distortion caused by interpolation and arithmetic imprecision. I don't understand the math, but I believe the distortion component due to interpolation is eliminated in Bryston's synchronous SRC.
http://www.iet.ntnu.no/courses/fe8114/slides/upsanddownsofasrc.pdf
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James and the rest of the gang,
Bob emailed me yesterday so I figure I would clear up a few things about USB.
First if your willing to write drivers for all os's then USB is wide open. I did this for years and would rather not do it again. Therefore I like to use what is called the Native drivers.
Now there is USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 but really when we talk audio it is Class 1 or Class 2 that really makes a difference. Class 1 was the basic audio specification which includes all rates up to 102,3K sampling rate. Why? Because the Class 1 spec says that an audio frame will happen ounce ever 1ms or greater. The specification says only 1023 bytes per frame is allowed thereby setting the max rate to 102,3K.
First the Class 2 Audio spec is only supported under MAC OSX 10.5.x and greater. There is no present plans to do Class 2 on Windows or Linux, though I am betting within a year from now that this will happen.
The big problem is that to get to xx/192 (I say xx as I am working on the ESS part and have 32/96 working and should have 32/192 soon) you need both High Speed USB 2.0 and Class 2. In the Class 2 audio spec you can now use what are called sub frames. This allows you to basically send a sub frame every 146uS which means you can pass some serious data.
The big difference and something that I have been working on for like the last 5 years is the jitter is not really understood that much. I have been saying the following and testing seems to back it up that the use of upsamplers or FIFO reclocking devices only act as like a low pass filter to jitter. You can pour though JA's testing and see that this is the case in many of the USB input tests the jitter is significantly higher than the SPDIF inputs on the same dac. I believe that the damage is done before the upsamplers and FIFO reclocking systems and that not all of this is removed or can be removed.
So we basically have two types of USB Interface for audio ASYNC and Adaptive. With Async you also have PLL generated clocks (not good) or low jitter clocks that are connected at the dac and feed back to the USB controller (TAS1020 or others) and that clock is used to generate the Bit Clock and the Word Clock as well as clock out the data.
As an example here is some jitter numbers I did using the Wavecrest jitter measurement system on Word Clock. I used the Faber Acoustics Oscillator (Fs=44.1K) as the basis for the stream sending a 1KHz Sine wave to the unit under test. FYI Word Clock is always used for jitter measurements as it will always be the worst case and this does not reflect the overall jitter of the system as most current chips do have a fair amount of jitter rejection. But this is measured at the output of the Word Clock for the following chips and or software:
TAS1020 standard Adaptive Word Clock Jitter 2838ps
TAS1020 using my slow Adaptive code 1131ps
TI/BB PCM2706/07 I2S output Word Clock 3743ps
TAS1020 using PLL derived asynchronous output I2S 433ps
TAS1020 using low jitter MCLK input at 11.2896MHz 73.2ps
The main problem with Adaptive is that in a sense you are changing the clock in the USB controller every 1ms. In the TI reference code for the TAS1020 this is set to 4ms which makes it better and why you see and improvement from 3743ps to 2838ps but if the Soft PLL is made to work a little smarter you can see it can be improved even more to 1131ps. But you can really see that removing the 1ms change required to meet the Adaptive USB and going to Asynchronous USB that you really start to get into acceptable territory.
I am not really a fan of upsampler chips because the math units in these are always compromised. The good thing is that the computer upsamplers use floating point and have a ton more processing power and to me always sound better. But as you can see from above, reduction of the jitter going to the dac chip would be a requirement for any of the adaptive USB setups to meet High End standards.
James if you have any questions on USB don't hesitate to ask. I have been pretty open with my information. I think USB is really the only interface capable of High End Audio. Sure Ethernet or any connection will work but then you have to write drivers. Firewire really could have been it but they sat on their laurels for years and now even Apple is taking it off their product line.
Well back to work, thanks
Gordon
Wavelength Audio
great input. cool forum. best results.
wow.
al.
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Here's a mathematical analysis that supports Gordon's statement that sample rate conversion greatly reduces, but does not eliminate, jitter. Hence, it is best to minimize jitter at the interface between the source (transport or computer) and DAC.
Jitter filtering is less effective at low frequencies. See the graph in Figure 9 and the conclusions on the last two pages, under the heading "AASRCs and Jitter".
The section beginning on page 7 addresses Ian's point regarding distortion caused by interpolation and arithmetic imprecision. I don't understand the math, but I believe the distortion component due to interpolation is eliminated in Bryston's synchronous SRC.
http://www.iet.ntnu.no/courses/fe8114/slides/upsanddownsofasrc.pdf
That's a really good paper covering the basics of sample rate conversion. Anyone who thinks upsampling or downsampling is simple and/or easy should read this -- it should open your eyes. As talking Barbie says; "Math is hard!" :-)
My argument in my previous post was to show that the BB SRC in the BDA-1 has sufficient bits of precision to avoid numerical instabilities affecting the correctness of its results (ie the math units are *not* compromised). But or course, that correctness also depends on the correct algorithms being used and the appropriate selection of filter characteristics and the generation and precision of the filter coefficients.
As to the distortion caused by resampling -- I believe it will be there whether you have the upsample button on or off on the BDA-1, as the SRC is being used to reclock and attenuate the jitter on the input regardless. But according the the spec sheet for the SRC, it will be at or below -140db -- That's amazingly good.
-- Ian.
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Speaking of jitter attenuation, Stereophile has reviewed and measured another external dac that uses the BB SRC4392, and found 76.1ps jitter with 24 bit data, and 149ps with 16 bit data. Again, extraordinary numbers...
I see no reason to believe that the BDA-1 will produce significantly different measurements for jitter. (Other measurements will be different due to different dacs, output stages and power supplies)
http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/208mfx/index4.html
I'm looking forward to read what John Atkinson has to say about the BDA-1. (James, are you guys going to get Stereophile to review the BDA-1?)
-- Ian.
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Speaking of jitter attenuation, Stereophile has reviewed and measured another external dac that uses the BB SRC4392, and found 76.1ps jitter with 24 bit data, and 149ps with 16 bit data. Again, extraordinary numbers...
I see no reason to believe that the BDA-1 will produce significantly different measurements for jitter. (Other measurements will be different due to different dacs, output stages and power supplies)
http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/208mfx/index4.html
I'm looking forward to read what John Atkinson has to say about the BDA-1. (James, are you guys going to get Stereophile to review the BDA-1?)
-- Ian.
Hi Ian,
Yes Stereophile has had one now for about a month.
james
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I read Charles Hansen's wonderful white paper last night, in which he explains how one-box players generally avoid jitter as an issue. (I knew that, but he made the case so clearly and convincingly that it got me thinking.) From a jitter perspective, at least, the BCD-1 should therefore sound better than the BDA-1. (I'm assuming the DAC and analog output stages of the two are fairly similar, but perhaps that's not the case.) Those who have heard them both -- what do you think?
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Hi
I work for audio shop that sells Bryston BDA-1. As expected build quality and sound first class.
I noticed many different types of inputs for this dac. Is there a reason ethernet connection not available such as used in Linn Akurate DS, Majik DS or Logitech Transporter Dac?
I like to leave laptop at desk other end of room connected to dac. As far as I know usb cables not good very 30 ft length but ethernet connection not affected by distance.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks
Dan
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Speaking of jitter attenuation, Stereophile has reviewed and measured another external dac that uses the BB SRC4392, and found 76.1ps jitter with 24 bit data, and 149ps with 16 bit data. Again, extraordinary numbers...
I see no reason to believe that the BDA-1 will produce significantly different measurements for jitter. (Other measurements will be different due to different dacs, output stages and power supplies)
http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/208mfx/index4.html
I'm looking forward to read what John Atkinson has to say about the BDA-1. (James, are you guys going to get Stereophile to review the BDA-1?)
-- Ian.
Hey Ian,
I have a Musical Fidelity XDAC V-8. And love it - espcecially via USB. For reasons James may or may not want to opine about the BDA - 1 is just a better sounding machine. I've got one for a few more days. As soon as I feel more confident I will talk about my time with a BDA - 1 in more detail.
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Hi James,
Are there any plan for an upgrade of the BDA-1 USB interface in the next months (to handle files of res higher than 48/16) ?
Phurbag
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Hi James,
Are there any plan for an upgrade of the BDA-1 USB interface in the next months (to handle files of res higher than 48/16) ?
Phurbag
Hi Phurbag,
No immediate plans. We do use the USB currently with the I2S input but we are going to hold off until the USB chips support the 192/24 that the rest of the BDA-1 inputs support.
james
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Hi James,
Are there any plan for an upgrade of the BDA-1 USB interface in the next months (to handle files of res higher than 48/16) ?
Phurbag
Hi Phurbag,
No immediate plans. We do use the USB currently with the I2S input but we are going to hold off until the USB chips support the 192/24 that the rest of the BDA-1 inputs support.
james
Hi James,
Will it be possible to upgrade the USB connection on existing BDA-1's when the 24/192 chips are available?
Bill
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Hi James,
Are there any plan for an upgrade of the BDA-1 USB interface in the next months (to handle files of res higher than 48/16) ?
Phurbag
Hi Phurbag,
No immediate plans. We do use the USB currently with the I2S input but we are going to hold off until the USB chips support the 192/24 that the rest of the BDA-1 inputs support.
james
Hi James,
Will it be possible to upgrade the USB connection on existing BDA-1's when the 24/192 chips are available?
Bill
Hi Bill,
That's the plan.
james
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Thanks James. I couldn't tell if phurbag was referring to upgrades to going forward BDA-1's or to retrofits as well. That's great news for those of us who are in the decision process for new digital sources.
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Guys,
Just received my BDA-1 and would like to replace fuse with a hi-fi fuse but can't seem to find a allen or hex that fits. Anyone know what tool will work?
Thanks,
Wig
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Just received my BDA-1 and would like to replace fuse with a hi-fi fuse but can't seem to find a allen or hex that fits. Anyone know what tool will work?
Do you mean the top plate screws? Looks like you need a Torx driver. But how do you know there's a standard fuse cartridge inside? Could be an unusual shape, or even soldered. You'd better wait for James' advice.
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Yes they are torx machine screws. Make sure you have the correct driver. Yes there is a fuse inside -- it is a small tubular one right near the power transformer. (see below for pic).
And you are *totally* out of your mind if you think that changing this fuse for even a solid hunk of silver is going to make even the smallest difference in the sound quality this device produces. You will get better results from sacrificing a small virgin lamb (Peruvian is best for these purposes I hear) and smearing the entrails over your body while dancing naked around the components you wish to enhance. (In order for this to work fully, you will have to post pics and video of this procedure for our entertainment -- we won't rat you out to peta, I promise.)
(If you seriously think that changing the fuse is going to make a difference, you probably shouldn't be opening the box. (Or driving a car or operating other heavy machinery for that matter -- you are likely a danger to yourself and those around you.))
-- Ian.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=21214)
// Sorry for snapping James -- sometimes I just can't take the stupidity any longer.
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Ian,
I was skeptical at first as well so I bought one gold plated Hi-Fi fuse for my Belles 150A Ref amp to experiment. The first thing I noticed was greater clarity and detail without straining to hear it and when I reversed the fuse it became more coherent.
So I decided to replace the fuses in my Belles 21A Tube Pre and Rega Apollo transport, the sound definitely improved over the standard glass fuses. Try one for yourself and see if you hear the change, I did and my system is not a high resolution system!
Thanks,
Ron
Vandersteen 2 Ce Sig II
Belles 150A Ref
Belles 21A Tube pre Auricaps
BDA-1
Rega Apollo
Dynamic Design BI-Wire
Dynamic Design MK2 IC x2
PowerCord e
MIT AC-1
MIT Z Cord II
MIT Z cord I
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I received my BDA-1 on Saturday and have been running it in before doing any serious listening. So far, I haven't noticed the bass everyone has been talking about, maybe because I'm using a RCA cable verses a coax that I'm waiting to come in or the unit needs much more time. One thing I have noticed is that there's more ambience but the richness is somewhat lessened with the DAC verses standard CDP.
Hopefully, most of this is due to cable and run in but so far I'm pleased but I'm hoping for more.
Wig :)
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Ron,
I apologize for the tone of my post above -- it (the tone) was not called for. I can't comment on fuses on the tube equipment you refer to as I'm not familiar with that design.
But in a piece of equipment with regulated power supplies (plural) (2 for each analog channel, and 5 for the digital components for a total of 9 voltage regulators) like the BDA-1, it strains credulity well past the breaking point to believe that replacing under 2cm of conductor (at 60hz, line voltage) on the far side of power transformers, multiple capacitors, and voltage regulators and more capacitors in a device that draws only a few hundred milliamps at full load could possibly have any affect whatsoever. If it did, I would say that it would be an indication of seriously flawed design in the power supply section.
The problem with audio equipment is that your brain expects that it should be able to hear a change if you've made a change -- even if there is no difference at all to be heard. The mind plays tricks. This is why audio engineers do blind listening tests and other objective measurements -- otherwise there is just too much "noise" in the "signal" to be able to know if a change made to the electronics has actually improved things or made them worse.
-- Ian.
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But in a piece of equipment with regulated power supplies (plural) (2 for each analog channel, and 5 for the digital components for a total of 9 voltage regulators) like the BDA-1, it strains credulity well past the breaking point to believe that replacing under 2cm of conductor (at 60hz, line voltage) on the far side of power transformers, multiple capacitors, and voltage regulators and more capacitors in a device that draws only a few hundred milliamps at full load could possibly have any affect whatsoever. If it did, I would say that it would be an indication of seriously flawed design in the power supply section.
The problem with audio equipment is that your brain expects that it should be able to hear a change if you've made a change -- even if there is no difference at all to be heard. The mind plays tricks. This is why audio engineers do blind listening tests and other objective measurements -- otherwise there is just too much "noise" in the "signal" to be able to know if a change made to the electronics has actually improved things or made them worse.
-- Ian.
:thumb:+1
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Has anyone tried running their bda with the lid off and exposed? If so any comments in a change of sound.
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I figure once the dust settles,she'll sound a little dusty and dry :lol:.
Lorne I hope your not to serious,of course it might have an open top end sound :lol:.
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Most electronics measure better (lower noise) with the tops on as the tops are designed to shield from RF etc.
james
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My favorite is the boutique fuses that claim a polarity for AC (alternating current) applications!
Steve
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Yep -- one thing about the whole audiophile world that I find very frustrating is the abundance of ridiculously priced and totally useless snake-oil products ranging from wooden knobs to "audiophile grade" ethernet cables, to "audiophile" power cords -- none of which are worth a damn. And all of which separate the overly credulous from their cash. Likely the same sorts that strap magnets on their fuel lines hoping for better gas mileage.
And now "audiophile" fuses.
As my wise grandmother used to say "A fool and his money are easily separated."
-- Ian.
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Power cables do make difference due to cancelling of line noise and a better power transfer from your house supply. This varies according to the situation and the level of equipment used. :weights:
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Power cables do make difference due to cancelling of line noise and a better power transfer from your house supply. This varies according to the situation and the level of equipment used. :weights:
And I agree with both of you. Quality power cables do make a difference but ridiculously priced cables are a lot of snake oil. There are many high quality and well reviewed power cables for under $500.00. Here we go again! Another cable argument that will go nowhere :nono:
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I figure once the dust settles,she'll sound a little dusty and dry :lol:.
Lorne I hope your not to serious,of course it might have an open top end sound :lol:.
Nope... serious, i used to run my perpetual technology dac out of it's chassis. Basically a board with two rca's and a dc power supply connected to it. It made a noticeable improvemnt on it. Brought it closer to a vinly comparison. I didnt come up with this on my own. It was a recommendation by Steve Nugent to try this as a reference point in demonstrating the mods on this dac he used to do. I went on his website and he doesnt seem to archive this anywhere so i cant link the recommendation. The only thing is you dont want to shock the board so its done with some risk.
Any ways i've always wanted to try this but felt reluctant to do so. I notice alot of people have gut shots here of the bda 1 and was interested if any of them had run it lid off. James had mentioned it probably sound worse but maybe not imo.
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James, I have a question for Dan about the BDA-1. If I feed DTS or some other encoded signal into the unit, will it;
a: Not try to send garbage bits to the DAC, thus destroying speakers or other downstream electronics, and
b: Pass the encoded signal through, unmolested, on the spdif-out connector at the back of the BDA-1?
I hope the answer is yes -- that way I can have stereo decoded by the awesome BDA-1, and surround sound decoded by something else...
Thanks.
-- Ian.
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James, I have a question for Dan about the BDA-1. If I feed DTS or some other encoded signal into the unit, will it;
a: Not try to send garbage bits to the DAC, thus destroying speakers or other downstream electronics, and
b: Pass the encoded signal through, unmolested, on the spdif-out connector at the back of the BDA-1?
I hope the answer is yes -- that way I can have stereo decoded by the awesome BDA-1, and surround sound decoded by something else...
Thanks.
-- Ian.
Hi Ian,
Yes it will simply pass-through the DTS signal untouched.
james
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Yep -- one thing about the whole audiophile world that I find very frustrating is the abundance of ridiculously priced and totally useless snake-oil products ranging from wooden knobs to "audiophile grade" ethernet cables, to "audiophile" power cords -- none of which are worth a damn. And all of which separate the overly credulous from their cash. Likely the same sorts that strap magnets on their fuel lines hoping for better gas mileage.
And now "audiophile" fuses.
As my wise grandmother used to say "A fool and his money are easily separated."
-- Ian.
I concur.
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I guess the same can be said about amp, CDP and speakers...
Yep -- one thing about the whole audiophile world that I find very frustrating is the abundance of ridiculously priced and totally useless snake-oil products ranging from wooden knobs to "audiophile grade" ethernet cables, to "audiophile" power cords -- none of which are worth a damn. And all of which separate the overly credulous from their cash. Likely the same sorts that strap magnets on their fuel lines hoping for better gas mileage.
And now "audiophile" fuses.
As my wise grandmother used to say "A fool and his money are easily separated."
-- Ian.
I concur.
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Well, speakers make the biggest difference in my opinion. Amps are important too. The fact of the matter is, a Bryston amp can deliver more voltage and current than a cheap receiver.
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Hi All,
Was just informed that you will see a SUPERB review on the BDA-1 External DAC in an upcoming issue of Stereophile!
james
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Hi All,
Was just informed that you will see a SUPERB review on the BDA-1 External DAC in an upcoming issue of Stereophile!
james
Sounds good...
On the topic of the BDA-1, I'm thinking about getting a Slimdevices Transporter to replace my SB3. I will likely still run it through my BDA-1....but anyone here try the Transporter against the BDA-1 for comparison?
Just curious.
Keith
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Hi All,
Was just informed that you will see a SUPERB review on the BDA-1 External DAC in an upcoming issue of Stereophile!
james
Sounds good...
On the topic of the BDA-1, I'm thinking about getting a Slimdevices Transporter to replace my SB3. I will likely still run it through my BDA-1....but anyone here try the Transporter against the BDA-1 for comparison?
Just curious.
Keith
I have the BDA-1 with stock Transporter, however I also use the Empirical Audio PaceCar2 for my setup. I didn't spend a lot of time with the stock D/A in the TP, but in my brief comparision the BDA-1/PaceCar2 it is just overall a much more musical combination. I just had no urge to go back at all as it sounds terrific.
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Hi All,
Was just informed that you will see a SUPERB review on the BDA-1 External DAC in an upcoming issue of Stereophile!
james
Sounds good...
On the topic of the BDA-1, I'm thinking about getting a Slimdevices Transporter to replace my SB3. I will likely still run it through my BDA-1....but anyone here try the Transporter against the BDA-1 for comparison?
Just curious.
Keith
I have the BDA-1 with stock Transporter, however I also use the Empirical Audio PaceCar2 for my setup. I didn't spend a lot of time with the stock D/A in the TP, but in my brief comparision the BDA-1/PaceCar2 it is just overall a much more musical combination. I just had no urge to go back at all as it sounds terrific.
Thanks Tom
I have no intention of not using the BDA-1 as the DAC. I was just curious based on the glowing things I've read on the DAC in the Transporter recently.
I'll have a look-see at the Pace Car as well.
Keith
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Hi All,
Was just informed that you will see a SUPERB review on the BDA-1 External DAC in an upcoming issue of Stereophile!
james
Sounds good...
On the topic of the BDA-1, I'm thinking about getting a Slimdevices Transporter to replace my SB3. I will likely still run it through my BDA-1....but anyone here try the Transporter against the BDA-1 for comparison?
Just curious.
Keith
I have the BDA-1 with stock Transporter, however I also use the Empirical Audio PaceCar2 for my setup. I didn't spend a lot of time with the stock D/A in the TP, but in my brief comparision the BDA-1/PaceCar2 it is just overall a much more musical combination. I just had no urge to go back at all as it sounds terrific.
Thanks Tom
I have no intention of not using the BDA-1 as the DAC. I was just curious based on the glowing things I've read on the DAC in the Transporter recently.
I'll have a look-see at the Pace Car as well.
Keith
What would be ideal would be more Transporter like devices available with a no DAC option. I have a hard time paying the $2K for the Transporter when you know a significant part of its cost is the internal DAC and you've already spent $2k for the BDA-1. Are there any "no DAC" digital players out there anyone?
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What would be ideal would be more Transporter like devices available with a no DAC option. I have a hard time paying the $2K for the Transporter when you know a significant part of its cost is the internal DAC and you've already spent $2k for the BDA-1. Are there any "no DAC" digital players out there anyone?
The IOBOX or Popcorn type of network media tank appliance is about as close as you get. 192k net connected streaming for under $300. It just happens to include a cheap DAC you can afford to ignore.
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Hi All,
Was just informed that you will see a SUPERB review on the BDA-1 External DAC in an upcoming issue of Stereophile!
james
Sounds good...
On the topic of the BDA-1, I'm thinking about getting a Slimdevices Transporter to replace my SB3. I will likely still run it through my BDA-1....but anyone here try the Transporter against the BDA-1 for comparison?
Just curious.
Keith
I have the BDA-1 with stock Transporter, however I also use the Empirical Audio PaceCar2 for my setup. I didn't spend a lot of time with the stock D/A in the TP, but in my brief comparision the BDA-1/PaceCar2 it is just overall a much more musical combination. I just had no urge to go back at all as it sounds terrific.
Thanks Tom
I have no intention of not using the BDA-1 as the DAC. I was just curious based on the glowing things I've read on the DAC in the Transporter recently.
I'll have a look-see at the Pace Car as well.
Keith
What would be ideal would be more Transporter like devices available with a no DAC option. I have a hard time paying the $2K for the Transporter when you know a significant part of its cost is the internal DAC and you've already spent $2k for the BDA-1. Are there any "no DAC" digital players out there anyone?
Absolutely. But I have a second small system in the living room that I've ben looking at getting a DAC to run that Squeezebox through. So, I figure give the Transporter a go and I'll use it in my main system for a while. If no improvement over the Duet, I'll just put it in the living room system.
But, even the Transporter has the option of 96/24 playing and has the word clock input if I want to go down that road as an upgrade, Etc....
So, I'd even have a hard time myself paying that much if my only option was to use it in my BDA-1-based system. So, overall, its worth the adventure.
keith
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Hi All,
Was just informed that you will see a SUPERB review on the BDA-1 External DAC in an upcoming issue of Stereophile!
james
Sounds good...
On the topic of the BDA-1, I'm thinking about getting a Slimdevices Transporter to replace my SB3. I will likely still run it through my BDA-1....but anyone here try the Transporter against the BDA-1 for comparison?
Just curious.
Keith
I have the BDA-1 with stock Transporter, however I also use the Empirical Audio PaceCar2 for my setup. I didn't spend a lot of time with the stock D/A in the TP, but in my brief comparision the BDA-1/PaceCar2 it is just overall a much more musical combination. I just had no urge to go back at all as it sounds terrific.
Thanks Tom
I have no intention of not using the BDA-1 as the DAC. I was just curious based on the glowing things I've read on the DAC in the Transporter recently.
I'll have a look-see at the Pace Car as well.
Keith
What would be ideal would be more Transporter like devices available with a no DAC option. I have a hard time paying the $2K for the Transporter when you know a significant part of its cost is the internal DAC and you've already spent $2k for the BDA-1. Are there any "no DAC" digital players out there anyone?
Absolutely. But I have a second small system in the living room that I've ben looking at getting a DAC to run that Squeezebox through. So, I figure give the Transporter a go and I'll use it in my main system for a while. If no improvement over the Duet, I'll just put it in the living room system.
But, even the Transporter has the option of 96/24 playing and has the word clock input if I want to go down that road as an upgrade, Etc....
So, I'd even have a hard time myself paying that much if my only option was to use it in my BDA-1-based system. So, overall, its worth the adventure.
keith
All that and the fact that I'm getting a used 'As New in Box", virtually unused Transporter for $1,300 is just icing on the cake aa
Keith
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Hi James,
Sorry for my long time of silence...
After 3 month of hearing my system in many different setups I'm absolute sure that I've bought a fantastic DA-Converter.
My preferred setup is to go with 44.1 kHz over the coax output of my CambridgeAudio 840C, into the BDA-1. The C840C enables to upsampling the digital output up to 48, 96 and 192kHz! but it sounds much better to take the 44.1kHz output signal for the BDA input. In the BDA-1 the upsampling make sense. For my system it sounds warmer and natural as without upsampling. The BDA-1 was connect via the XLRs to the BP25.
If Bryston will rollout a solid state 'BCD-1 lite' drive without DA-converting to feed my BDA-1, I will buy it blind to replace the China build Cambridge-Audio.
Since two month I've hooked a 2nd 4B-ST in my system. In my case the main benefit of bi-amping is the short way between amplifier and speaker. Now the speaker-cord length is much more less then 1meter. I use one channel to drive the subs and the other channel to drive the mid and the tweeter. But I use the passive crossover in my speakers. From the BP25 I go over the 4 RCAs with 2.2 meter long Silent-Wire NF7 cords to the 4Bs. It sounds much better as my first setup with short coax between pre- and main-amplifier and 3meter long speaker-wires. A further benefit was to avoid the heat accumulation in case of staggering the main-amplifiers.
In future I will replace my two 4B ST with a pair of 7B SST (!), but my cash auditor related by marriage needs more time to think about it?
These are the news from Germany.
Kindly Regards,
Ralf
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Yeah, I figured the BDA-1 is better than the 840C. That player is a lot of hype. To me, it's Chinese made junk.
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I am using Bryston BDA-1 for 2 weeks and quite happy with this amazing device via SPDIF and BNC. aa Anyway I have one small problem and can't solve it for a few days.
I am trying to use DAC via USB connection in Windows XP, I see "KS driver" in foobar (plagin for Kernel installed) but foobar "freeze" during playback, at the same time via ASIO4ALL everything runnig well. Few questions:
1. How do you use BDA-1 via USB?
2. Is it possible to install "native" Kernel Streaming driver instead of Usbaudio.sys (Windows XP)?
3. Where I can find 'native' driver with ASIO support, like well known "Ploytec" for Windows XP instead of ASIO4ALL?
Waiting for your advices!
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Hi Sajk,
I will check on this but USB does not use asio drivers. USB is a 2-way system and you must choose BDA-1 in the list of audio outputs available in Windows XP.
Go to 'Control Panel' - then 'Sounds and Audio Device's - then 'Audio' tab and the drop down list should show "BDA-1".
james
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Hi James,
honestly, I don't know how it works but there are many devices (external sound cards and DACs) on the market with ASIO driver support. Please take a look to the 'generic' driver from Ploytec http://www.usb-audio.com
Usually devices sounds better via ASIO then via operating system's mixer.
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Hi James,
honestly, I don't know how it works but there are many devices (external sound cards and DACs) on the market with ASIO driver support. Please take a look to the 'generic' driver from Ploytec http://www.usb-audio.com
Usually devices sounds better via ASIO then via operating system's mixer.
Yes I have 3 soundcards and I use ASIO but I was not aware of ASIO cards that work with USB - thanks I will check it out.
james
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I'm looking for some feedback. My budget is around the price of a BDA. I am currently in the planning phase of selecting a music server front end. I will be using a Mac Mini and I was focusing an a Firware DAC along the lines of a Metric Halo ULN2. Minimal jitter is important to me. But there are other options available. Another option I have been considering is an async USB Ayre DAC. But I'm drawn to Bryston because of the warranty, the reputation and it is a Canadian company.
I know the BDA has jitter reduction technology, but I'm curious if that can be improved upon.
Has anyone used jitter reduction reclocking devices with the BDA and were the improvements significant? Since the BDA alone is near the limit of my budget I don't see an Off Ramp or Pace Car being part of this system, but I might I might change my budget if it makes a lot of sense. A more affordable device would defineately be doable though. Such as an M2Tech Hiface.
I'd appreciate any feedback.
Bryan
P.S. I have not read this thread in detail yet, but if the subject has already been discussed in detail let me know.
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Interesting review of the BDA-1 here;
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64204.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64204.0)
-- Ian.
This seems like a case of a less than optimally setup system masking and smearing sound. I really found the review useless, not interesting.
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Thanks! :green:
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Hi Bryan,
I've tried to connect M2Tech Hiface to the BDA-1 via BNC (Windows XP -> Foobar -> KS stream). The sound is very detail, much better then my current source Squeezebox Duet and BDA-1 USB connection.
Now I am looking for ASIO drivers for 'native' Bryston's USB connection, waiting for advices from other BDA-1 owners :roll:
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From: Allan
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:17 PM
To: Bryston
Subject: Customer Response
Customer Response
I have known about and used Bryston products for over 25 years
My System:
AMP: Linn Majik 6100, Bryston 2B
PREAMP: Linn Kairn, Bryston .5B
SPEAKERS: Linn Active Isobarik, Yamaha NS-690
TURNTABLE: Linn LP-12
CD-DVD: Linn Karik, Numerik
Comments:
I thought I would let you know how pleased I am with the Bryston BDA-1. It is a big upgrade to my system and listening experience. I have had a lot of opportunities to listen to the unit in a number of different configurations and it makes everything sound amazing.
My music server now is indistinguishable from my CD player (both played through the BDA-1). I am spending a lot of time going through my music collection finding out what new things the Bryston reveals!!
Thank you,
Allan
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TubesTrans
This is a great piece,very musical.I'm just going to list some of its highlights in my system.My old converter was just that,old,so everything was improved with the BDA-1. My experience with this converter tells me it needs a minimum of 100 hours to fully burn in,probably closer to 150.Depth and what I like to call Quench took the longest.
I much prefer my redbook cds with a chaser(upsampling on)its presentation while upsampled is fantastic,very spacial,disolves the room boundries,excellent top to bottom-left to right-front to back imaging.I like to be included in the soundstage and this piece does this in spades. The top end is as close to class A as I've heard from any digital front end. Beautiful dymanic range on individual instruments and voices(quench).
Solid rhythmic room filling low end. No matter what volume setting,it has a relaxed,eased-effortless quality,nothing is forced,beaming.Your allowed at your own leisure to pick up and follow individual voices,instruments. Amazing ability to transport you to the recording venue,wether it be a hall,church or stage,superb ambience. Another neat feature is the color of its upsampling LED with redbook cds,its a perfect match for ye ol' fire bottles!
~~GREAT CONVERTER BRYSTON~~
__________________
~API-Aragon-Bryston-Cardas-deHavilland-Kef-Kimber-Pangea-Theta
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Awesome.
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Hi Phurbag,
No immediate plans. We do use the USB currently with the I2S input but we are going to hold off until the USB chips support the 192/24 that the rest of the BDA-1 inputs support.
james
Hi James,
Will it be possible to upgrade the USB connection on existing BDA-1's when the 24/192 chips are available?
Bill
Hi Bill,
That's the plan.
james
James,
Now that we have 24/192 USB chips, will you be offering an upgrade option?
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James,
Now that we have 24/192 USB chips, will you be offering an upgrade option?
Hi - can you direct me to the chips you mentioned?
james
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Hi - can you direct me to the chips you mentioned?
james
Sorry James, my bad.
I got confused between USB 2.0 supporting high bit rates 24/192.
I assumed other vendors were using a chip solution, BUT
realized it was software specific drivers, created on the windows/mac side.
Hence the BDP-1 - a dedicated linux system.
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Dear James,
I am Tuan from Vietnam, I have been a fan of Bryston and I have spent for 7 years to collect Bryston equipment (very hard to find in Vietnam). My current system are: 3B THX, B60 SST, and BDA-1.
I would like to have your support for solving my BDA-1 error as following symptom:
The BDA-1 manufactured in 2011. Yesterday when I turn it on but there no any signal out. The led light both at Up sampler and Power are all in Red. I turned up again but all led in input positions did not light up.
Could you please give me a guidance to sole this problem of my BDA-1
Thank you very much and looking for your help.
With my best regards,
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Dear James,
I am Tuan from Vietnam, I have been a fan of Bryston and I have spent for 7 years to collect Bryston equipment (very hard to find in Vietnam). My current system are: 3B THX, B60 SST, and BDA-1.
I would like to have your support for solving my BDA-1 error as following symptom:
The BDA-1 manufactured in 2011. Yesterday when I turn it on but there no any signal out. The led light both at Up sampler and Power are all in Red. I turned up again but all led in input positions did not light up.
Could you please give me a guidance to sole this problem of my BDA-1
Thank you very much and looking for your help.
With my best regards,
Hi Tuan
Mike will be in touch.
james
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If its the battery, advise him on the best way to remove the old battery. I just pulled up on mine and the whole battery holder came out. I was able to solder it back in place keeping the + and - on the holder in line with the corresponding + and - on the circuit board - (not pretty) but it works. After examining the holder, there is one side to lift first and there was nothing underneath the battery that would be damaged by the careful insertion of a small straight blade screw driver.
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Dear Fado,
Many thanks for your suggestion.
I have checked the internal of BDA1 via picture on the website but did not see the battery on the board. I though the battery just only available in BCD or BDP, not in BDA. Could you please let me know your equipment is BDA or BDP/BCD?
Regards,
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Hi Tuan
Mike will be in touch.
james
Dear James,
I have received email from Mike with his guidance.
Thank you very much.
Regards,
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Sorry, I was thinking of my BDP-1. I do not have the BDA. Thanks for catching that. Good luck with your project, AudioCircle members are an enormous source of information.
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Dear James and Mike,
According to your instructions, I have successfully updated the firmware and my BDA-1 cured.
I appreciate your prompt and timely support.
Regards,