AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: cacophony777 on 1 Jun 2010, 06:31 am
-
Well, I finally got a chance to hear a pair of Songtowers (Thanks Jim!). I must have been impressed because somehow a pair for sale on Audiogon ended up in my living room today. :D
They are the standard curly cherry with the Sonicap platinum bypass caps upgrade.
I'm still letting my impressions soak a bit more, but here's my initial reaction vs my RS6:
not as harsh/bright
more detailed
tighter, more precise sound (especially bass)
slightly less bass extension
larger, more 3D soundstage
significantly better off axis performance
much taller
fit and finish is spectacular (I thought the RS6 were nice, but these are works of art)
A few questions:
(1) In the specs it says they come with Seas CA15RLY midwoofers, but it appears mine might have the Seas ER15RLY. If you look at the last photo, it looks more like the ER15RLY (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8180) than the CA15RLY (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_254&products_id=824). At first I was concerned somebody had scratched the midwoofers, but was relieved when I saw the ER15RLY part photo. What exactly are those marks?
(2) Seeing that the birth certificate is for the original owner, I'm wondering whether Jim can make me a new one. Perhaps he could change it to an adoption certificate :D The original owner only had them for 1.5 months, but felt they were too large for his listening setup (his chair was 2-3 feet from the songtowers).
Anyways, enjoy the pics!
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower1.jpg)
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower2.jpg)
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower3.jpg)
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower4.jpg)
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower5.jpg)
-
Sweet! I've always wanted to hear a pair. If they sound half as good as they look you'll be delighted! :)
-
(1) In the specs it says they come with Seas CA15RLY midwoofers, but it appears mine might have the Seas ER15RLY. If you look at the last photo, it looks more like the ER15RLY (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8180) than the CA15RLY (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_254&products_id=824). At first I was concerned somebody had scratched the midwoofers, but was relieved when I saw the ER15RLY part photo. What exactly are those marks?
In another thread, Dennis Murphy commented on a speaker he was building that was to use the ER15 driver:
I'll be using the ER15 reed cone driver, which is almost identical to the older CA15. It's a little easier to work with below the crossover point, but I'm not expecting it to sound substantially better. I'm sure the difference will be quite subtle. I'm not sure whether I'll get it done before the New Year. It may be the first of my 2010 resolutions.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=75112.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=75112.0)
Jim Salk might confirm whether ER15 drivers may have been substituted for the CA15 in any SongTower speakers built. However, Dennis note suggests there may be reed in the ER15 driver that account for the "marks" and these should sound very much like the CA15.
-
A few questions:
(1) In the specs it says they come with Seas CA15RLY midwoofers, but it appears mine might have the Seas ER15RLY. If you look at the last photo, it looks more like the ER15RLY (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8180) than the CA15RLY (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_254&products_id=824). At first I was concerned somebody had scratched the midwoofers, but was relieved when I saw the ER15RLY part photo. What exactly are those marks?
Those are the reeds in the reed and paper cone. We made the change to this driver about a month ago and that was one reason our pricing needed to be adjusted. The driver is ever so slightly smoother than the CA15. It is probably not all that audible, but we always like to make improvements when we can. When we decided to make the switch, everyone who had an existing order received the new ER version (including the new crossover) at no additional cost.
(2) Seeing that the birth certificate is for the original owner, I'm wondering whether Jim can make me a new one. Perhaps he could change it to an adoption certificate :D The original owner only had them for 1.5 months, but felt they were too large for his listening setup (his chair was 2-3 feet from the songtowers).
I'm sure we could develop an "adoption certificate." Email me and we'll whip one up.
- Jim
-
Nice! :thumb:
-
Well, I finally got a chance to hear a pair of Songtowers (Thanks Jim!). I must have been impressed because somehow a pair for sale on Audiogon ended up in my living room today. :D
They are the standard curly cherry with the Sonicap platinum bypass caps upgrade.
I'm still letting my impressions soak a bit more, but here's my initial reaction vs my RS6:
not as harsh/bright
more detailed
tighter, more precise sound (especially bass)
slightly less bass extension
larger, more 3D soundstage
significantly better off axis performance
much taller
fit and finish is spectacular (I thought the RS6 were nice, but these are works of art)
A few questions:
(1) In the specs it says they come with Seas CA15RLY midwoofers, but it appears mine might have the Seas ER15RLY. If you look at the last photo, it looks more like the ER15RLY (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8180) than the CA15RLY (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_254&products_id=824). At first I was concerned somebody had scratched the midwoofers, but was relieved when I saw the ER15RLY part photo. What exactly are those marks?
(2) Seeing that the birth certificate is for the original owner, I'm wondering whether Jim can make me a new one. Perhaps he could change it to an adoption certificate :D The original owner only had them for 1.5 months, but felt they were too large for his listening setup (his chair was 2-3 feet from the songtowers).
Anyways, enjoy the pics!
Mine arrived with the same drivers. Thank-you, Jim!
I just love the attention to detail on the Salk products. I mean, look at the beautiful veneers, and how they are book-matched on all sides. Fine furniture.
-
The ER15 uses the same frame and motor as the CA15, and models identically in Paul Kittinger's TL cabinet for the Song Tower. The only difference is the cone material--I'm not sure whether there's actually bamboo in there, but it's something reedy. The ER is slightly smoother in the region between 1000 and 2000 Hz, but I'm not claiming you would hear the difference if I snuck into your living room at 3:00 in the morning
and pulled a switcharoo with your old Song Towers.
-
I'm still letting my impressions soak a bit more, but here's my initial reaction vs my RS6:
Were those the Monitor Audio RS6's? If so, could you comment on the sensitivity relative to the Song Towers? The ST's are rated at 88 dB, and the MA RS6's at 91 dB. Are the ST's noticeably less sensitive? Thanks.
-
I must have been impressed because somehow a pair for sale on Audiogon ended up in my living room today. :D
Nice haul cacophony777 ! Welcome to the Salk family, may your enjoyment only grow with time. 8)
-
Were those the Monitor Audio RS6's? If so, could you comment on the sensitivity relative to the Song Towers? The ST's are rated at 88 dB, and the MA RS6's at 91 dB. Are the ST's noticeably less sensitive? Thanks.
I haven't done a direct side by side comparison, but my initial impression was that the ST was slightly less sensitive. Doesn't seem like a large difference, but possibly noticeable if you trust my auditory memory (which probably isn't so great :P )
-
Well, I finally got a chance to hear a pair of Songtowers (Thanks Jim!). I must have been impressed because somehow a pair for sale on Audiogon ended up in my living room today. :D
They are the standard curly cherry with the Sonicap platinum bypass caps upgrade.
I'm still letting my impressions soak a bit more, but here's my initial reaction vs my RS6:
not as harsh/bright
more detailed
tighter, more precise sound (especially bass)
slightly less bass extension
larger, more 3D soundstage
significantly better off axis performance
much taller
fit and finish is spectacular (I thought the RS6 were nice, but these are works of art)
A few questions:
(1) In the specs it says they come with Seas CA15RLY midwoofers, but it appears mine might have the Seas ER15RLY. If you look at the last photo, it looks more like the ER15RLY (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8180) than the CA15RLY (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_254&products_id=824). At first I was concerned somebody had scratched the midwoofers, but was relieved when I saw the ER15RLY part photo. What exactly are those marks?
(2) Seeing that the birth certificate is for the original owner, I'm wondering whether Jim can make me a new one. Perhaps he could change it to an adoption certificate :D The original owner only had them for 1.5 months, but felt they were too large for his listening setup (his chair was 2-3 feet from the songtowers).
Anyways, enjoy the pics!
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower1.jpg)
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower2.jpg)
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower3.jpg)
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower4.jpg)
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower5.jpg)
Some of the fotos i have seen, shows that the front baffle has some vertical pattern or grove on it. Yours doesnt seem like it has. Is it the pics or actually no pattern? Thanks
-
Some of the fotos i have seen, shows that the front baffle has some vertical pattern or grove on it. Yours doesnt seem like it has. Is it the pics or actually no pattern? Thanks
The Ribbon Tweeter version has a different machined aluminum front baffle, and that's the one that has the vertical pattern.
-
cacophony777,
What camera did you use to take those photos? They came out really well, so I am just curious.
Of course, the speakers look fantastic. Congrats to you!
-
What camera did you use to take those photos? They came out really well, so I am just curious.
Of course, the speakers look fantastic. Congrats to you!
Thanks Nuance. It was your detailed quest that started this whole Salk journey for me! :D
I used a D90 for the photos. These photos were just quick grabs, but for me it's the lighting that makes the difference. I used two external flashes on either side of me, both of which were bounced off the ceiling to make a more diffused light. Using external flashes is a really easy and cheap way to get much better lighting. If you want to learn more I highly recommend the strobist blog: http://strobist.blogspot.com/
-
^ Awesome! Thanks for the link. :thumb:
-
Seeing that the birth certificate is for the original owner, I'm wondering whether Jim can make me a new one. Perhaps he could change it to an adoption certificate :D
Ask and you shall receive...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=31101)
- Jim
-
cacophony777,
Interesting to see an upgrade from RS6 to SongTowers. Ever since I decided to upgrade from my basic Polks a few months back, I had looked for the longest time at RS6. Considering they are about half of what the ST's cost, do you feel this is a huge step-up from RS6 and well worth the price bump? When I had got a used pair of RS6 home for a week for audition, they sounded quite nice but I always felt the soundstage was not wide enough and therefore returned them. Just looking for more of your comparison impressions..
Btw, I have a D90 too - great minds.. :)
-
Thanks Nuance. It was your detailed quest that started this whole Salk journey for me! :D
I used a D90 for the photos. These photos were just quick grabs, but for me it's the lighting that makes the difference. I used two external flashes on either side of me, both of which were bounced off the ceiling to make a more diffused light. Using external flashes is a really easy and cheap way to get much better lighting. If you want to learn more I highly recommend the strobist blog: http://strobist.blogspot.com/
I was going to ask the same thing. I was impressed by the pictures as well. Especially the lighting and clarity. My wife is learning how to use a Digital SLR and was interested to know about this kind of technique. Thanks for the link.
Derek
-
Ask and you shall receive...
That's awesome Jim, thanks!!! :thumb:
I'll have to frame it :D
-
Interesting to see an upgrade from RS6 to SongTowers. Ever since I decided to upgrade from my basic Polks a few months back, I had looked for the longest time at RS6. Considering they are about half of what the ST's cost, do you feel this is a huge step-up from RS6 and well worth the price bump? When I had got a used pair of RS6 home for a week for audition, they sounded quite nice but I always felt the soundstage was not wide enough and therefore returned them. Just looking for more of your comparison impressions..
For me personally the extra cost is definitely worth it. I really loved the RS6 overall, but was always a bit envious of my friend's B&W 805's because they seemed to present more detail and a larger soundstage. I would easily hear things on his 805's that I would struggle to hear on my RS6. I also felt the RS6 was a bit bloated in the bass area. It was hard to follow the bass line on many tracks because it just blended in with the rest of the instruments.
For me the Songtowers have solved those two drawbacks. They are much more detailed (without being fatiguing), and they also have more definition across the entire frequency range. The soundstage feels larger to me as well with a clearer separation between the instruments.
Also, aesthetically the Songtowers are spectacular. The fact that they are handcrafted with pride really shows. The RS6s were really nice, but you could tell they were built in a large factory in China.
Hope this helps.
-
I continue to be in awe of my new Songtowers. :thumb: The separation of instruments is quite phenomenal, which leads me to wonder how it is done...
What is most responsible for a speaker's ability to exhibit a clear, almost 3D separation between instruments/voices?
Crossover?
Drivers?
Cabinet design?
-
I continue to be in awe of my new Songtowers. :thumb: The separation of instruments is quite phenomenal, which leads me to wonder how it is done...
What is most responsible for a speaker's ability to exhibit a clear, almost 3D separation between instruments/voices?
Crossover?
Drivers?
Cabinet design?
All three to a certain extent.
First of all, the drivers are high quality...very accurate and detailed. The midwoofers are smaller, so off-axis response is very good. This, combined with the narrow baffle, results in a frequency response at 30 degrees off axis that is almost exactly the same as the on axis response. The result is a very wide and deep sound stage with a lot of separation and detail.
As is the case with any Dennis Murphy-designed crossover, the phase relationship in the crossover region is spot on. This results in utterly seamless integration of the drivers. It is as if the sound is emanating from a single full-range driver.
The cabinet is responsible for the bass extension that would not be present in a normal ported design.
In the case of the SongTowers, the total is definitely greater than the sum of the parts. The drivers are great, but would not perform this well without an extremely well executed crossover design. The cabinet rounds out the design. The sum is more than you should realistically expect looking at the individual components. In a very real sense, it is the "Perfect Storm" in that speaker designs rarely come together this well.
When Dennis Murphy first approached us about this design, we had relatively little interest. We had worked with these drivers in other designs and I thought I knew exactly what to expect. But Dennis stuck with it for 8 months and I finally agreed to build a pair and have a listen. When I fired up that first pair, it took no more than 30 seconds to realize I was listening to a very rare speaker indeed and one that deserved an audience. Once I heard it, I knew we had absolutely no choice but to bring it to market. I can only thank Dennis for being persistent.
- Jim
-
Thanks for the explanation Jim!
-
For me personally the extra cost is definitely worth it. I really loved the RS6 overall, but was always a bit envious of my friend's B&W 805's because they seemed to present more detail and a larger soundstage. I would easily hear things on his 805's that I would struggle to hear on my RS6. I also felt the RS6 was a bit bloated in the bass area. It was hard to follow the bass line on many tracks because it just blended in with the rest of the instruments.
For me the Songtowers have solved those two drawbacks. They are much more detailed (without being fatiguing), and they also have more definition across the entire frequency range. The soundstage feels larger to me as well with a clearer separation between the instruments.
Also, aesthetically the Songtowers are spectacular. The fact that they are handcrafted with pride really shows. The RS6s were really nice, but you could tell they were built in a large factory in China.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for your response - this is very helpful! So, who wins the battle of the ST vs 805's?! :)
Btw, I have already ordered the ST's (quite recently), and already can't wait to lay my hands on them!
Enjoy your bliss!
-
So, who wins the battle of the ST vs 805's?! :)
Tough call without a side by side comparison. My Songtowers are in a relatively small room with lots of windows and are hooked up to pretty inexpensive electronics (~$800). My friend's B&W's are in a large room with few windows and hooked up to $5k in electronics (he also recently upgraded to the 805 Diamonds, which are a $5k speaker). The fact that I'm not sure which setup sounds better speaks volumes about how good the Songtowers must be (or perhaps it's just wishful thinking :wink:)
-
That sure is big points for the ST's! I did listen to the 805 Diamonds at a dealer with Rotel amps and such - they were AWESOME! The closer the STs get to that the happier I will be :)
-
Is there a simple and cheap (< $200) way to improve the acoustics of the room in a noticeable way? Maybe putting something behind the speakers that doesn't go up high enough to block the windows?
As you can see in this picture there are windows more or less behind the Songtowers. There are also windows on both sidewalls that you can't see in the picture. The wall opposite the speakers has no windows. There is also a large carpet in front of the speakers.
(http://webspace.lenscritic.com/songtower/songtower1.jpg)
-
Curtains on all the windows would be a simple solution. Even leaving them open would still help.
-
Thanks for your response - this is very helpful! So, who wins the battle of the ST vs 805's?! :)
The first time I met TJHUB (Terry), he brought his 805's over to my house and we directly compared them to my SongTower RT's. In short, the SongTower's destroyed them, and I think Terry will agree. After all, he sold them very soon after and ordered a pair of HT2-TL's (his room is larger and he needed the extra bass extension).
YMMV, of course.
cacophony777,
Curtains will help a ton. Another option is stand mounted room treatments (I think Gik and Realtraps sell them). That way you can easily move them out of the way when they aren't needed; no wall mounting necessary.
-
The first time I met TJHUB (Terry), he brought his 805's over to my house and we directly compared them to my SongTower RT's. In short, the SongTower's destroyed them, and I think Terry will agree. After all, he sold them very soon after and ordered a pair of HT2-TL's (his room is larger and he needed the extra bass extension).
Sweet! That's very encouraging indeed!
-
those look awesome!!
What stain was used with the curly cherry??
Rob
-
those look awesome!!
What stain was used with the curly cherry??
Rob
Thanks. There's no stain, though the original order requested a darker cherry sample.
-
Impressive looking.
Good form!
-
cacophony777,
Do your ST's have the satin finish or the high gloss finish? I am still trying to decide between the medium or dark stain in curly cherry. Now I see there is an option for satin or high gloss. Oh boy these will be some tough choices :?.
Bill
-
Do your ST's have the satin finish or the high gloss finish? I am still trying to decide between the medium or dark stain in curly cherry. Now I see there is an option for satin or high gloss. Oh boy these will be some tough choices :?.
They just have the regular satin finish. Lots of fun choices :D
-
May 31st (my birthday) I ordered a pair of HT2-TL in cherry. I hope they look as good as your STs. :thumb:
:smoke:
-
May 31st (my birthday) I ordered a pair of HT2-TL in cherry. I hope they look as good as your STs. :thumb:
I'm sure they'll be stunning, congrats! :D
-
They just have the regular satin finish. Lots of fun choices :D
Thanks :). That makes my decision much easier as I will go with the satin finish. From your pictures (which are excellent) the finish looks like it has just the right amount of gloss. It was your pictures that gave me the push I needed to order the STs :D.
Bill
-
Thanks :). That makes my decision much easier as I will go with the satin finish. From your pictures (which are excellent) the finish looks like it has just the right amount of gloss. It was your pictures that gave me the push I needed to order the STs :D.
Nice, glad to hear I helped facilitate a sale :thumb:
-
Satin really is a nice finish. Its not matte. The high gloss is really high gloss, like its encased in glass. Some people like the look, others don't. I find the satin is a great look, and a heck of a lot easier on the ole pocketbook.
-
I just sold my old RS6 speakers. I deliberately didn't do direct A/B comparisons when I initially bought my new Songtowers, partly because there was a small part of me that was worried I wouldn't hear enough difference to justify the upgrade.
But for the RS6 sale tonight I had them hooked up right next to the Songtowers and couldn't resist...
The difference is utterly phenomenal
The clarity
The warmth
The detail
The depth
The Songtowers are not just better, they are vastly better, and I couldn't be happier with this upgrade.
:thumb:
-
I just sold my old RS6 speakers. I deliberately didn't do direct A/B comparisons when I initially bought my new Songtowers, partly because there was a small part of me that was worried I wouldn't hear enough difference to justify the upgrade.
But for the RS6 sale tonight I had them hooked up right next to the Songtowers and couldn't resist...
The difference is utterly phenomenal
The clarity
The warmth
The detail
The depth
The Songtowers are not just better, they are vastly better, and I couldn't be happier with this upgrade.
:thumb:
:guitar: :rock:
-
Nuance, your initial advice here was spot on:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=75858.msg713700#msg713700
I think your analogy with the smudged window was a perfect way of illustrating the difference.
-
I just sold my old RS6 speakers. I deliberately didn't do direct A/B comparisons when I initially bought my new Songtowers, partly because there was a small part of me that was worried I wouldn't hear enough difference to justify the upgrade.
But for the RS6 sale tonight I had them hooked up right next to the Songtowers and couldn't resist...
The difference is utterly phenomenal
The clarity
The warmth
The detail
The depth
The Songtowers are not just better, they are vastly better, and I couldn't be happier with this upgrade.
:thumb:
Awesome!!! That's veyr good to know!
-
Nuance, your initial advice here was spot on:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=75858.msg713700#msg713700
I think your analogy with the smudged window was a perfect way of illustrating the difference.
Thanks buddy.