AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Music Reference => Topic started by: fastfred on 5 Jul 2014, 06:25 pm
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=87434)
A plea for someone to take on the task of honest review; or how do we go about reclaiming our hobby?
I have to bring to the attention of those who care about our hobby 2 articles in the latest Positive Feedback Online, which in my opinion expose the audiophile press for what it really is, part of the advertising & promotion end of the audiophile industry. They don’t have the consumer’s best interest at heart. I find the article on tuning fuses especially irresponsible
One recurring theme I see in the current audiophile press is dismay over the direction to which “HI END” AUDIO is turning. If you go to my website you will see references to many articles which try to help the neophyte audiophile, spend his audio dollars wisely. Is it any wonder that when a normal well adjusted human being is introduced to our hobby, that they throw up their hands in dismay and run for the Bose boutique in terror, when confronted by a sales person who’s already convinced them they need a $10,000 plus system, who then tries to up sell them three to four thousand dollars of speaker, interconnect, and mains cables. In most cases all this person is looking for is a quality sound system to listen to music on.
On to the relevant articles:
One article titled: Skoff goes blind by Roger Skoff…(retired XLO executive) actually describes a sales technique (Roger Claims was his idea) suggested for use in selling speaker cable & interconnect. I don’t know about you but do I detect a degree of arrogance in this article? Especially the ending. I hope this is a tongue in cheek article. but I doubt it. It’s too bad the article wasn’t titled Skoff goes mute then I could have avoided reading it altogether, I just get angry when I read crap like this.
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue74/skoff_blind.htm
The other article titled:
(HiFi Supreme and Audio Horizons' "Platinum Reference More Than A Fuse”) Fuses by Robert Youman.
The definition of a fuse:
……a safety device consisting of a strip of wire that melts and breaks an electric circuit if the current exceeds a safe level. My complaint here is if you are reviewing a fuse shouldn’t you be testing this fuse for what it’s designed for? Actually stressing the fuse enough to cause it to blow. Then comparing the fuse to it’s specifications to see if it failed as it should have when it should have.
If these products actually do their job as fuses, to protect the circuit they’re part of, then I would say that the verbiage used to describe how wonderful they are & the attributes they bring to the listening experience are warranted.
But nowhere in this article does it even say what these fuses were designed for and what their specs are. Positive Feedback Online should be brought to task for the gross irresponsibility of publishing this review. Refer to Rogers post about tuning fuse from 2013.
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue74/fuses.htm
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Remember that positive feedback causes oscillation. That magazine is totally out of touch with the real world.
Now about fuses, notice that the tester seldom mentions just how the fuse is being used.
There are three common use's for a fuse in a component:
a] AC power supply
b] DC power supply
c] Audio output / loudspeaker input
The only use that could affect the sound or distortion of an amplifier is the Audio output / loudspeaker input fuse.
Bob Cordell in his book "Designing Audio Power Amplifiers" tested fuses used in this manner.
His findings were at 20 Hz the added THD was 0.0033%
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The only use that could affect the sound or distortion of an amplifier is the Audio output / loudspeaker input fuse.
I agree with you, but alas there are others who don't. I'm not surprised, as I've been witness on too many occasions to audio aficionados going gaga over placebos.
Not to exclude myself, I'm fairly certain my car's engine runs smoother and quieter after a good wash and touch-up application of Speed Shine.
Steve
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101956)
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Fred,
I don't think it's possible this hobby can be reclaimed, and even if it could, Audiocircle is not the forum where it will happen. :)
The concept of a "review" has been completely bastardized through the years and has no relation to its traditional meaning. Positive Feedback is certainly not alone in this transgression.
Better to just steer clear of Positive Feedback in the future and you won't get angry. :)
Dave.
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I believe there are audible differences between electronics but that they are by in large dwarfed by the differences between transducers, where the grossest distortions are. I don't believe that a phono preamp which consumes 12 watts needs a power cable the thickness of a garden hose, or that that power cable makes a "night and day" difference in that head amp's sound. But once you've plunked down that $600 for it, you really want to hear it.
But I also believe that measurements don't tell the whole story. So whats an audiophile to do? Decide what good sound is worth (to you), prioritize (as most of us have to) wisely, listen, and above all listen to live regularly so you don't get sucked into the myth that if you just spend another $___, you will have "perfect" sound. By the way, fastfred, $10K is "chump change" in today's world of "deep end" audio. I have heard systems running well into six figures at shows and I'll tell you, some of the most expensive and elaborate systems impressed me the least. Once you quit throwing money at a goal you will never achieve (perfect sound), you can sit down, relax and actually enjoy some music. I'll bet a lot of people with "cheap and cheerful" systems here actually enjoy their systems more than some with megabucks stuff because they aren't as worried as to whether they got their money's worth. (You can buy a lot of concert tickets for $50,000.) I actually enjoy listening to the BBC3 and KWAX 320K classical streams. Maybe I should turn in my audiophile card, but I just wanna hear some music.
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Not to exclude myself, I'm fairly certain my car's engine runs smoother and quieter after a good wash and touch-up application of Speed Shine.
Steve
and i swear that my amp sounds better when i replace the batteries in the remote for that amp
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I have no problem with the skoff article : in fact I agree with him and even the sales technique. The "wooden ears" comment is a bit tongue in cheek, but understandable from a designer of audiophile cables. BTW : XLO cables are awesome, and particularly good value for the money vs many other brands. Too bad they are closing down.
I think you may have missed the point of the fuses article, and the author didn't help. It wasn't to review their effectiveness as "safety" devices : presumably the stock fuses do those just as well. You have to at least be open minded to the idea that as the fuse is in the current path, that it may affect sound quality in a component. I don't have any personal experience trying "audiophile" fuses, but if and when I do, I will try to be open minded. Not all tweaks work for all systems, or how they change the sound necessarily a subjective improvement in sound - or if they do - necessarily a good value. I'll concede that the reviewer seems to be somewhat too "rhapsodic" about the improvement, which strains his credibility. This seems to be a common affliction of reviewers who may feel they need to exaggerate to say something meaningful or worthy of publication. After all - how often have you read a review that concludes "meh, YMMV, etc, etc".
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. I'll bet a lot of people with "cheap and cheerful" systems here actually enjoy their systems more than some with megabucks stuff because they aren't as worried as to whether they got their money's worth. (You can buy a lot of concert tickets for $50,000.) I actually enjoy listening to the BBC3 and KWAX 320K classical streams. Maybe I should turn in my audiophile card, but I just wanna hear some music.
I'll bet that's not necessarily the case. The people I know who have "megabucks stuff" enjoy it just fine and they don't need any validation as to whether or not they got their money's worth. On the contrary, I think it's the folks trying to achieve as much as they can without unlimited resources who are more likely to be stressin' over every piece of gear they buy because they don't have the luxury of writing off a mis-step so easily and trying another path. I know I certainly don't buy a piece without a whole lot of deliberation. And while it's true that you can buy a lot of concert tickets for 50 Large, you can buy a helluva stereo, too...
BTW : XLO cables are awesome, and particularly good value for the money vs many other brands. Too bad they are closing down.
Concur on all three points, Jarcher.
D.D.
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i think the ultimate point is that we all have tried millions of tweaks - that seem to work for a time or two or three - but soon realize that that thing isn't all that its cracked up to be - and were fine with out it
and there are too many products that are so over-rated - and the things that usually make a real difference are amplifiers - speakers - source components - period.
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I can hear the differences in using the fuses, but I refuse to spend over $50 for one. Audiophile fuses do blow on occasion. The $20 AMR gold fuses is all I ever use. Many audiophiles that believes in fuses scoff on the AMR because of the low price compared to all of the others.
And I prefer to listen to my audio system than spending $200-400 for the overpriced scalped concert tickets. It would have cost me 800 bucks for my wife and I to see the Eagles locally. Now that is a much bigger ripoff. And besides, if my music gets to loud for my ears, I can always turn the volume down.
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Is it any wonder that when a normal well adjusted human being is introduced to our hobby, that they throw up their hands in dismay and run for the Bose boutique in terror, when confronted by a sales person who’s already convinced them they need a $10,000 plus system
I was at a local car audio store to buy some gear. The bill quickly added up to 7 grand in a modest, good, system. I listened to a couple of 30 grand systems the employees had in their cars.
I asked what the average system cost is for them, they said around 5-8 grand, with a 30-50 grand system once a month, or so. They were putting a 7 grand system into a boat as well.
I decided to go bare bones and spend 3 grand and use some home speakers in the mix.
Looks like car audio might be part of high end audio's future, that and headphones. But, with the quality of budget home gear these days, mid fi, can be hi fi if put together well.
Rocket_Ronny
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I agree with you, but alas there are others who don't. I'm not surprised, as I've been witness on too many occasions to audio aficionados going gaga over placebos.
Not to exclude myself, I'm fairly certain my car's engine runs smoother and quieter after a good wash and touch-up application of Speed Shine.
Steve
Dan Ariely - When expectations override our senses:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTBruF21Fk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTBruF21Fk)
I think you may have missed the point of the fuses article, and the author didn't help. It wasn't to review their effectiveness as "safety" devices : presumably the stock fuses do those just as well.
No, I think you missed fastfred's point, which is that fuses are, first and foremost, safety devices. HiFi Tuning fuses are mysterious 'safety' devices. The manufacturer publishes nothing with regard to how they perform their primary role as fuses (beyond a semi-useless amperage rating). Send them an email inquiring about their characteristics as fuses and you will receive no useful information. All this talk about their behavior as wires is a red herring. I'm quite certain the stock fuses perform their task as safety devices, but it's impossible to say how the HiFi Tuning fuses will perform until the worst happens, at which time I'd wager that it truly will be the worst.
BTW, another manufacturer of audiophile fuses did comment that all of their fuses are slow-blow for the best sonics.
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No, I think you missed fastfred's point, which is that fuses are, first and foremost, safety devices. HiFi Tuning fuses are mysterious 'safety' devices. The manufacturer publishes nothing with regard to how they perform their primary role as fuses (beyond a semi-useless amperage rating). Send them an email inquiring about their characteristics as fuses and you will receive no useful information. All this talk about their behavior as wires is a red herring. I'm quite certain the stock fuses perform their task as safety devices, but it's impossible to say how the HiFi Tuning fuses will perform until the worst happens, at which time I'd wager that it truly will be the worst.
BTW, another manufacturer of audiophile fuses did comment that all of their fuses are slow-blow for the best sonics.
Call me naive or too trustful, but when you charge 10X or more vs a standard fuse, the presumption is that they can adequately perform their primary safety purpose. Which then leaves how it affects, presumably positively, the sound quality. You don't see reviewers trying to blow up power conditioners and power strips to test the stated safety features of those. Why do you expect a higher standard for fuse reviews? Would be a pretty boring and short review if just to test the rated capacity of the fuse. Though until someone actually does, I don't think you can reach the conclusion that "it will truly be the worst".
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I am the original poster on this topic.
I recently changed internet providers so my e-mail address has changed. The problem started when I logged onto the site earlier today, and posted
a topic in the forums titled ( the future of hi/end audio & a rant on honesty in reviewing ( tuning fuses ) started by fastfred (that’s me). I ticked the box
asking to be notified if there were responses to the topic. I’m positive I updated my contact info on my profile, but I guess I didn’t because I haven’t
received any notification about replies to my post. When I decided to check for notifications I received an error response when I tried to log on the site.
The old e-mail address on my account is ( info@audiofyle.com ) my new e-mail address is ( info.audiofyle@mymts.net ). I really don’t want to re-
register; your help will be much appreciated. Could please forward this to the appropriate department, or maybe you can tell me where to send it?
…………………….. Fred Petersen
[Edit by ServerAdmin: please don't post passwords etc publicly. If you have an issue with logging in, post in Login Help (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=1.0).]
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Call me naive or too trustful, but when you charge 10X or more vs a standard fuse, the presumption is that they can adequately perform their primary safety purpose. Which then leaves how it affects, presumably positively, the sound quality. You don't see reviewers trying to blow up power conditioners and power strips to test the stated safety features of those. Why do you expect a higher standard for fuse reviews? Would be a pretty boring and short review if just to test the rated capacity of the fuse. Though until someone actually does, I don't think you can reach the conclusion that "it will truly be the worst".
Actually, I think my position is perfectly rational. In fact, I honestly think the situation is worse than I portrayed. For what it's worth, I did send an email with an honest, logically constructed inquiry into such fuse metrics as melting integral and in-rush characteristics. What I received by way of reply was a reiteration of the fuse's specifications as a conductor - the red herring. Well, I won't be so easily distracted. A fuse must perform as a fuse. They obviously aren't averse to quantifying the behavior of their devices, so why not test and publish the primary data regarding their fuses? Frankly, I suspect one of two possibilities (which aren't necessarily mutually exclusive). Either they have no idea, or they realize how limited the proper application of their devices actually is. The fuses which one might replace with such a fuse will be certified and will behave in a predictable and desirable manner, as the designer of the piece of gear intended.
BTW, I'm not saying that the characteristics that are meaningful for a fuse should be all that is discussed, but when that very aspect is completely ignored, it does give me pause. In reality, all 2.5A fuses aren't the same. In response to your parallel of a power conditioner to a fuse, I have never purchased a power conditioner that wasn't certified...and I never will. Ergo, I have no need for a reviewer to prove that the device is safe to use and will provide the protection implied - an independent lab has already done that.
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My understanding is that EVERYTHING in the signal path compromises the signal. So how did we go from thinking in terms of the least damage to claims of the most good? Would no fuse be better sounding than the best fuse? If you're willing to pay stupid money for fuses that purportedly sound better, might you instead just risk having no fuse?
All of this nonsense eats away at the credibility of the industry and the buffoons who serve as its fodder. Face facts, y'all --- you are a bunch of cult members. You have religious zeal, blind faith, dogmatic certainty and a willingness to be fleeced in the name of true belief. Most of you are simply parroting things you heard and swearing it is fact, and many are busy seeding the minions with rumors and innuendo which serve the goal of exploitation. The soul has been stripped away and the carcass is in its death throes. Naturally, there will be calls for my head over this blasphemy.
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As some others here, I think it is best policy to keep an open mind with this stuff. There are so many variables to consider (system, individual's hearing acuity, resolution, room, etc. etc. etc.) that I can understand why one person who tries "controversial" tweak X can hear a clear, if subtle difference, whereas another person who tries the same "controversial" tweak X can not hear a difference at all. The only thing 100% true is that YMVV. The thing that drives me nuts is when one person thinks their experience is more true than another's. So you have these very polarized responses to a tweak and people on both sides of the fence calling each other stupid. So all I can say is, if you're curious about a tweak, then try it. If the cost to try the tweak is what is keeping you on the fence, then you may be better off spending your money somewhere else........like on music that you know you'll enjoy.
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Hi FastFred. Interesting looking gear you posted above. What is it please?
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Hi Fast Fred,
Congratulations on a fast topic. Over 600 views in one day and so many responses is notable. Here is my experience.
I had several email exchanges with the maker of Tuning Fuses and got the same Red Herring responses. My first experience with his product was in an RM-9 MKII that came to me for service with eight tuning fuses (one for each tube) in place of my specified HIGH BREAKING ceramic fuses. The tuning fuse's inability to do their job properly had blown the wirewound cathode resistor, which I had never seen before. I study every failure and this one caught my attention because it takes a lot of energy to blow that resistor. Its wire is much stouter and of a very high melting material, any fuse should go first.
Of course I opened up the fuse and looked at its construction. It was made in such a way as to be the worst possible fuse for that application. I called the distributor here and asked is it was a high breaking fuse and suitable for a tube fuse. He didn't know what that was. I said well the fuse specified for my amp is high breaking and ceramic. He said that because his fuse was ceramic also it must be OK. This is very naive. He doesn't know and perhaps the maker doesn't know that a high breaking fuse is made a different way, though from the outside it looks the same.
These fuses are totally inappropriate for any high voltage DC application such as a tube fuse in an amplifier. What also amazed me is that these fuses cost more than most tubes. I felt sorry for the owner who had been led down this path by irresponsible magazines like Positive Feedback. Not only did this fuse not protect his tube but it did not protect his amplifier.
The maker of these fuses, like many makers of tweaks will certainly get no admiration from me. What gets me is why so many people want to play with tweaks rather than make real improvements in their system like bi-amping, adding a good subwoofer and simplifying the signal path.
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***Looks like car audio might be part of high end audio's future, that and headphones.***
IMO car-fi is deader than home audio. First, OEM car stereos much better than previously (honestly my only complaint with my CT200h's "premium" stereo is the upper bass quality - it images better than any "competition" car I've ever heard even with the stock speakers) so there's much less need for aftermarket car-fi. Second, it's much harder to do aftermarket audio now than previously. Headunits are integrated rather than modular DIN/double DIN units. Signal busses are proprietary. DSP is used at all stages.
The golden age of car-fi was the 1990s, IMO. And not just because that's when I started to drive. :) The gear is definitely better now, though.
Headphones/personal audio is a different story. That niche is exploding.
Call me naive or too trustful, but when you charge 10X or more vs a standard fuse, the presumption is that they can adequately perform their primary safety purpose.
It is indeed naive to make any presumptions about the basic suitability to actual purpose of a scam product such as an "audiophile fuse."
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All of this nonsense eats away at the credibility of the industry and the buffoons who serve as its fodder. Face facts, y'all --- you are a bunch of cult members. You have religious zeal, blind faith, dogmatic certainty and a willingness to be fleeced in the name of true belief. Most of you are simply parroting things you heard and swearing it is fact, and many are busy seeding the minions with rumors and innuendo which serve the goal of exploitation. The soul has been stripped away and the carcass is in its death throes. Naturally, there will be calls for my head over this blasphemy.
Naturally. Okee doke, here we go...
"BLASPHEMER!!! OFF WITH HIS HEAD !!!"
There. How was that? Self-righteous enough or do I need a dash more umbrage? :green:
D.D.
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Call me naive or too trustful, but when you charge 10X or more vs a standard fuse, the presumption is that they can adequately perform their primary safety purpose.
The design and manufacturing of fuses is no simple task. The name brands (Bussman and Littlefuse) test and publish extensive time vs overload graphs and breaking capacity (a very misunderstood quality) among other things for their fuses. They also get Safety Ratings from every organization on the planet (UL, CSA, CE, and about 6 others whose symbols are not printable here). Tuning Fuses (and other tweak fuses) have none of these industry approvals, nor do they publish any graphs or specs on breaking capacity. Therefore you have no assurance that they will protect your equipment and in some applications (such as tube fuses) they will damage your equipment. The reviewers don't look into this. In fact a reviewer in PF magazine a few years ago got voltage and current totally backwards. We should really ask why is anyone making these things and why is anyone reviewing them and why is anyone buying them.
Choosing the proper fuse is a difficult task and one not often well done. One has to consider inrush, what faults one is trying to protect against in selecting the proper fuse. Here is what I work with from Littlelfuse.
http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/datasheets/fuses/littelfuse_fuse_216_datasheet.pdf.pdf
It's a lot to look at and it took considerable effort to construct those time curves for just that fuse type. There are many other types that have similar information. If nothing else use your magnifying glass function to look at those time vs current curves. You can also see the ten agencies that have approved most of the fuses. They are all approved by the majors. You will find none of this at Tuning Fuses.
The real question, and I ask this without prejudice, what did you read or hear that made you trust that these fuses would offer basic protection?
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I had assumed - perhaps erroneously - that if your going to charge so much for a product that is supposed to both protect and improve sound quality that the manufacturer would have performed sufficient testing to guarantee at least the first. I.e. It would be very bad business practice to sell a product that particularly is going to be used in high dollar audio equipment if that product has an unacceptably high risk of putting it at higher risk than a standard fuse. Just a couple of customer stories of gear blowing up or melting down in this day so rapidly spreading Internet information would seem to be the death knell for such a company.
Again : perhaps too naive on my part, as you've had direct experience of one such unhappy instance. Time will unfortunately be the ultimate arbiter of whether this an exceptional situation or indicative of a widespread problem. I wouldn't rely on sales staff at any audio company to offer a full and complete answer to a technical question - or even those who should be in the know technically to volunteer detailed technical explanations. After all - their design or construction method may be something relatively simple, and as the barrier to entry is probably low, they wouldn't want to potentially divulge that information to a competitor.
And that's about as far as I'm willing to go to "defend" hifi fuse companies. I'm still open minded and curious to try one, though your experience has had me reconsider putting them in any high voltage or high dollar component.
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You have to at least be open minded to the idea that as the fuse is in the current path, that it may affect sound quality in a component.
There is nothing "open minded" about being grotesquely misinformed about basic physics, electrical engineering or perceptual science.
Though I suppose the mind has to be "open" to let in that sort of BS.
I have no doubt that the users of these things "hear" what they say they "hear". I actually take no exception to that at all. How could I? Those are their perceptions, purely subjective.
What I do exception to, is when objective reasons are given as direct correlation. i.e., the magic fuse is "in the current path", thus why it is "heard". That is NOT a subjective claim. That is purely objective...and complete BS that would unravel under any scrutiny by technically educated, rational people.
Again, I have no issue with purely subjective claims about these magic fuses and jars of jellybeans and whatnot. Beware making objective ones.
cheers,
AJ
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Hello Roger:
Thanks for the congratulations. I was going to post it as a reply to your old tuning fuses post from 2012, you deserve the credit for first bringing this scam to the attention of the audiophile community, and I totally agree that PFO & any other review magazine which supports these manufacturers is irresponsible in their actions.
Onto a different topic: (maybe you can help)
You may have noticed that in my reply, my user name has changed to fastfred007. It’s not a change that I’ve asked for except that perhaps it’s due to my own irresponsiblity in forgetting change my contact info, and then ticking the box saying notify me when anyone replies to this thread. When I tried to log in last evening they wanted my old e-mail info which no longer is active because I’ve changed internet providers. Hopefully they can reinstate my old account and cancel this one or alternatively move my old info over to this account so I don’t lose my old posts etc.
Thanks also for the C-4 pre/amp in the picture with my SAR Labs LW-25's i included on the post. The SAR Labs LW 25 Monoblocks in combination with the C-4 are magic in my system. Any one looking for a great pre/amp with intelligently designed tone controls should listen to one of these better yet order one from Roger
"rockdanny" hope this answers your question as well.
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There is nothing "open minded" about being grotesquely misinformed about basic physics, electrical engineering or perceptual science.
Though I suppose the mind has to be "open" to let in that sort of BS.
I have no doubt that the users of these things "hear" what they say they "hear". I actually take no exception to that at all. How could I? Those are their perceptions, purely subjective.
What I do exception to, is when objective reasons are given as direct correlation. i.e., the magic fuse is "in the current path", thus why it is "heard". That is NOT a subjective claim. That is purely objective...and complete BS that would unravel under any scrutiny by technically educated, rational people.
Again, I have no issue with purely subjective claims about these magic fuses and jars of jellybeans and whatnot. Beware making objective ones.
cheers,
AJ
Uh - real "cheery" there. Perhaps the "grotesquely misinformed" subjectivists would benefit from a more specific "objectivist / scientific" explanation. I didn't make a declaration that a "hifi" fuse can make an audible difference - I don't even have any direct experience to make that claim. But you have emphatically stated that objectively it can't, so the burden is on you to provide some evidence vs making ad hominem attacks.
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I had assumed - perhaps erroneously - that if your going to charge so much for a product that is supposed to both protect and improve sound quality that the manufacturer would have performed sufficient testing to guarantee at least the first. I.e. It would be very bad business practice to sell a product that particularly is going to be used in high dollar audio equipment if that product has an unacceptably high risk of putting it at higher risk than a standard fuse. Just a couple of customer stories of gear blowing up or melting down in this day so rapidly spreading Internet information would seem to be the death knell for such a company.
Again : perhaps too naive on my part, as you've had direct experience of one such unhappy instance. Time will unfortunately be the ultimate arbiter of whether this an exceptional situation or indicative of a widespread problem. I wouldn't rely on sales staff at any audio company to offer a full and complete answer to a technical question - or even those who should be in the know technically to volunteer detailed technical explanations. After all - their design or construction method may be something relatively simple, and as the barrier to entry is probably low, they wouldn't want to potentially divulge that information to a competitor.
And that's about as far as I'm willing to go to "defend" hifi fuse companies. I'm still open minded and curious to try one, though your experience has had me reconsider putting them in any high voltage or high dollar component.
Hi, though you didn't quote me I assume you are replying to my post above. Let me make it clear who I talked to. First I spoke with the rather naive distributor. Through his hands come all the Tuning Fuses to this part of the world. Then I thought, I'll just contact the guy in Germany who makes these things, and a bunch of other tweaky stuff. We exchanged several emails in which I found that he had sent the fuses to some outside testing lab who could only make a few tests over a small range of conditions. While these fuses may be close to right in some applications they still have not gotten any safety approvals from the rating agencies. Perhaps they have tried and not been approved. The fuse construction is totally unacceptable for high breaking applications such as tube fuses or any high voltage DC application.
The real question is why do we want to pay $45 or whatever for a fuse that has a silver wire vs a standard fuse wire. A line fuse is so far out of the signal path that it might as well be in Australia as far as our amplifier is concerned.
High End tweak products are not regulated by any agency. The people who buy them are causing the demand for them. Why people buy into these things I do not know. If people stop buying them the makers of them will go away. I do my best to expose the most egregious (shocking, appalling, terrible, awful, horrendous, frightful, atrocious, abominable, abhorrent, outrageous) ones by purely technical means. I hope to bring some sanity to those dedicated to this pursuit.
Here is the website of the guy who created and makes Tuning Fuses and other tweaks. Read his introduction. All this guy does is swap parts around. Why doesn't he make an amplifier with his best parts and leave others alone? http://www.hifi-tuning.com/index_eng.html
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You have to at least be open minded to the idea that as the fuse is in the current path, that it may affect sound quality in a component
I didn't make a declaration that a "hifi" fuse can make an audible difference
By all means, feel free to explain.
cheers,
AJ
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By all means, feel free to explain.
cheers,
AJ
Is the fuse NOT in the current path? I said it MIGHT (may) affect the sound quality - not that it does or doesn't. If your going to quote and highlight, do it correctly. Having heard power cords cause substantial changes in sound quality, I'm open to the idea that fuses might - at least until I get the chance to listen objectively for myself.
YOU seem to state that emphatically that a fuse can't / doesn't and those who think it does or might are grotesquely misinformed, etc. So man up and give some more explanation of why - at least Roger alluded to one possible reasons why not (too far away from the signal path).
"Cheers"
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What I often see people say about tweaks is that they "made a difference". But if you check the dictionary, you will notice that different is not synonymous with better.
And really, what is the obsession about improvement. Everyone here has a system that ranks in the top 2% worldwide. Isn't that good enough? Jeez, just settle in and let your appliances serve you. That's right actually, your beloved high end rig is just an appliance. It'e a machine that does something for you.
Just try to imagine obsessing about how you can tweak your dishwasher or refrigerator to make it more accurate or more transparent. Despite the best rationalizations you can raise for fixating on audio gear, you still have to overcome the fact that they are just machines. They are supposed to help your life, not dominate it.
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What I often see people say about tweaks is that they "made a difference". But if you check the dictionary, you will notice that different is not synonymous with better.
And really, what is the obsession about improvement. Everyone here has a system that ranks in the top 2% worldwide. Isn't that good enough? Jeez, just settle in and let your appliances serve you. That's right actually, your beloved high end rig is just an appliance. It'e a machine that does something for you.
Just try to imagine obsessing about how you can tweak your dishwasher or refrigerator to make it more accurate or more transparent. Despite the best rationalizations you can raise for fixating on audio gear, you still have to overcome the fact that they are just machines. They are supposed to help your life, not dominate it.
:thumb:
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Hi, though you didn't quote me I assume you are replying to my post above. Let me make it clear who I talked to. First I spoke with the rather naive distributor. Through his hands come all the Tuning Fuses to this part of the world. Then I thought, I'll just contact the guy in Germany who makes these things, and a bunch of other tweaky stuff. We exchanged several emails in which I found that he had sent the fuses to some outside testing lab who could only make a few tests over a small range of conditions. While these fuses may be close to right in some applications they still have not gotten any safety approvals from the rating agencies. Perhaps they have tried and not been approved. The fuse construction is totally unacceptable for high breaking applications such as tube fuses or any high voltage DC application.
The real question is why do we want to pay $45 or whatever for a fuse that has a silver wire vs a standard fuse wire. A line fuse is so far out of the signal path that it might as well be in Australia as far as our amplifier is concerned.
High End tweak products are not regulated by any agency. The people who buy them are causing the demand for them. Why people buy into these things I do not know. If people stop buying them the makers of them will go away. I do my best to expose the most egregious (shocking, appalling, terrible, awful, horrendous, frightful, atrocious, abominable, abhorrent, outrageous) ones by purely technical means. I hope to bring some sanity to those dedicated to this pursuit.
Here is the website of the guy who created and makes Tuning Fuses and other tweaks. Read his introduction. All this guy does is swap parts around. Why doesn't he make an amplifier with his best parts and leave others alone? http://www.hifi-tuning.com/index_eng.html
Thanks for the further info. That website is a mess and hodge podge of broken English and links! Not very confidence inspiring.
Would agree with you that in my limited experience tweaks tend to be the least cost effective performance improvements in a hobby already plagued by dismissing returns on investment. Nonetheless all should at least be offered an open door to make their performance claims prior to verifying these based on experience and measurement.
All I can say is that I assume that for some that have very high amounts invested in their systems, even grossly overpriced fuses must seem like a minor cost relative to the alternatives. But still it seems prudent to either have a free in home trial or a liberal return policy.
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Everyone here has a system that ranks in the top 2% worldwide. Isn't that good enough?
Actually, it's too good. I really don't deserve it... :green:
D.D.
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The fuses work best if you place them on top of your components, like Shatki stones. Phenomenal improvements!
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Wait a minute.... I can tweak my dishwasher?
D.D.
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Just remember, when you stare into the tweak, the tweak stares into you....
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Thanks for the further info. That website is a mess and hodge podge of broken English and links! Not very confidence inspiring.
Would agree with you that in my limited experience tweaks tend to be the least cost effective performance improvements in a hobby already plagued by dismissing returns on investment. Nonetheless all should at least be offered an open door to make their performance claims prior to verifying these based on experience and measurement.
All I can say is that I assume that for some that have very high amounts invested in their systems, even grossly overpriced fuses must seem like a minor cost relative to the alternatives. But still it seems prudent to either have a free in home trial or a liberal return policy.
:thumb:
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And let's be careful out there, audio lovers. You don't want to take it too far. You could be up Sh*t's Tweak without a paddle...
Goodnight everybody ! I'm here all week ! Watch out for each other, huh?
D.D.
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The fuses work best if you place them on top of your components, like Shatki stones. Phenomenal improvements!
In some cases, I've found the best improvement is simply tossing them in the trash. With my speakers, they offered questionable protection against a failure that's not really much more than a minor inconvenience. So, they and their holders are no longer parts of the circuitry. This is actually a fuse application in which the discussion of sonic impact is reasonable. In for a penny, in for a pound - in for free, but in all the way. :wink:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101989)
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At the insistance of an old audio friend (we've both been into audio since the 70's back when it was still called stereo) I tried various tweaks a few years ago: fuses, DAC tube rolling, special feet, cable lifts, room treatments, power conditioners, and of course cabling (low voltage, speaker, power). Nothing super exotic or expensive, heck back in my day we still used zip cord for speaker cable. Over the years my systems have been considered fairly average around these parts ($4,000 - 10,000 MSRP for single digital source, can't stand vinyl surface noise), if not eccentric (single driver speakers). And except for cabling, none of tweaks ever made a lick of difference to my ears (note I've enjoyed relatively young electrical grids but varying quality/condition of in-house wiring). Even the differences I've heard with cabling has been fairly minor (the average person would not have have been able to make a distinction) except for a comparison that was made between two $1,000 speaker cables at a local audio meeting. It was the battle of the really thin wire versus the garden hose. The difference was quite noticeable, but which was "right"? No doubt neither. Which one was "better"? Doesn't matter to me because I'm not spending that much on any cable, especially after hearing each out do the other in different attributes.
The only tweak that has probably ever helped is the earmuffs I use for hearing protection while I mow.
What works for me is good speakers in a decent room that is available at any time. The rest can quickly become either secondary (i.e. clean power, tube vs solid state, Redbook vs hi-res) or pointless.
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Hi all.
I come from the stereo era, when tubes were (Almost) the only thing available.
My first interest in stereo audio equipment was at the age of 18 (1966) which is 48 years ago. Writing that, does not make me feel younger, believe me.
I had all makes/models of gears and to me, most of them (At that time) sounded good.
I must admit that at that time, I was more interested in the melody/tune (Beattles/Ventures/James Last…) than the quality of sound.
I did buy/change several systems looking for better, but was never really satisfied; I think at that time, it was more owning nice looking gears with lots of buttons and switches, than getting better sounding gear.
Many times lately or more likely when I joined the Audio Circle band, I told myself: I won’t act as a narrow minded audiophile and I will try some tweaks, as long as they are affordable.
Cable lifters, speaker’s cables of different material and gauge, different makes of tubes, inexpensive and more expensive CD player, etc…
The most noticeable difference (Better or worst.) was with the tubes, some with much better sound and some with very little improvement, the wires and interconnects did not bring much improvements or it was difficult for me to tell if it was a real improvement or just an impression of improvement.
Audiophile fuses, shielded power cable, cable lifter and the same did not make a trace of improvement to my ears.
I am very reluctant in spending money for tweaks, because I simply don’t believe in them and most of them are over priced or have a profit margin of 500 to 1000% and that bothers me.
Yes, I know, they are in business to make money and not to relief the suffering humanity
As the years adds up in my life, I notice that I am becoming less and less demanding with sound quality, is it because I cannot afford more expensive and better sounding equipment or simply the fact that I am just tired of trying new stuff that don’t bring much in term of more satisfaction ???
I am now putting the final touch to my last system and I think that later on in my life, when someone will put me in a retirement house and/or in a toilet size room for senile persons, I might have only access to FM music via a small table radio, of course, if such a thing still exist in 2035 or I will listen to my tape cassette Nakamichi, if it’s still working or repairable and of course watch TV.
I read posts of those AC members that only think (Almost an obsession) about having the best of the best and trying to convince (Help) others to do the same thing as they do.
Well, to those I say:
Not everyone as the same requirements/taste and that (To me) they don’t seem to realize.
Well, I am happy with what I have and I am not looking for something better or more accurate or more linear…
I did listen to better audio systems than mine and guess what? They did not bring to me more joy, enjoyment, satisfaction.
My system cost me about 6,000 USD and that more than enough to play music.
I still want to do a few changes/improvements, because they will cost me very little $$$.
Our AC member JLM said and I quote:
" The only tweak that has probably ever helped is the earmuffs I use for hearing protection while I mow. "
Unquote:
I started wearing a pair of those construction type ear plugs when I get out of the house, because planet Vietnam is extremely noisy everywhere you go and I want to protect my hearing
to enjoy my music listening.
Guy 13 from noisy planet Vietnam.
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I know it is a huge bone of contention for many, but I got over it long ago.
I have always been a subjective listener (fool to many I suppose) and I buy what I like the sound of. I guess that means I would be happy being "snowed" by someone selling snake oil if I thought it sounded good.
So be it.
I buy what I want, and I keep what I love to listen to.
Good luck selling me anything else.
At present, my 2 channel speakers are around 12 years old, and my main amp may be closer to 20. The DAC is the newest at around 3 years.
I have been up and down the $ ladder in this game, but have always kept what sounded good to me.
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@fastfred, please see your email for instructions on resetting your password. Please use NEW password. If you have any issues, please post in Login Help (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=1.0).
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Being the op I want to steer the conversation over to the 2nd paragraph in the original post.
As I said Is it any wonder that when a normal well adjusted human being is introduced to our hobby; that they throw up their hands in dismay and run for the Bose boutique in terror, when confronted by a sales person, Who’s already convinced them they need a $10,000 plus system, who then tries to up sell them three to four thousand dollars of speaker, interconnect, and mains cables.
Plese keep in mind I don’t believe that all tweaks are scams, Cable products can make a difference, good or bad, I leave that up to you. The Roger Skoff article shows to what extent a company will go to in training their sales staff. I remember speaking to a friend who sold Linn equipment here in Winnipeg. He shared with me a story about going to Linn school. They were advised to put a lively recording on the LP 12 & then do a discrete little dance while the demo was going on. His choice of recording ( The Wall Street Shuffle ) by 10cc……….
………………The hobby as we know it today first evolved from people building kits, speakers, amplifiers, etc… The ‘equipment’ reviewing business evolved from the reviewing of recorded music, because people wanted to know, what the reviewer was playing his music on. Magazines like Audio, Stereo Review were measurement oriented, ( I really miss the music reviews as Audio magazine did them ), and later The Absolute Sound & Stereophile who prided themselves on accepting no advertising, therefore the reviewer could call a dud for what it was. Unfortunately for us this is no longer the case. You can’t trust the mainstream audiophile press anymore. The reviews are free and therefore suspect. Maybe this is the topic for a new thread.
My favourite magazines from the past were Listener & the print version of PFO. I loved Gizmo's writing & I'm a big fan of Arthur Salvatore & Ethan Winer.
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I guess I don't see the difference between an attempt at an upsell in an audio salon vs my local car dealership or a contractor in my home.
If you don't understand the motivations of salespeople (only been doing it for closing on 20 years now, currently selling professional services), I guess it bugs you.
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I
I guess I don't see the difference between an attempt at an upsell in an audio salon vs my local car dealership or a contractor in my home.
If you don't understand the motivations of salespeople (only been doing it for closing on 20 years now, currently selling professional services), I guess it bugs you.
........should a sales person be writing reviews for PFO unless PFO is merely a sales brochure which I think is the sad reality for most of the audiophile press.
I see your point but aren't you sidestepping the part about the neophyte audiophile. I've had the experience of being bent over the barrel and have a collection of wire & other tweak products if I can help someone separate the wheat from the chaff shouldn't I be doing that. Just because it's a business practice doesn't make it morally correct. Remember I said $10,000 worth of equipment & the upscale 4 to 5 thousand dollars of cable (speaker, interconnect & mains) cables. Roger Modjeski said in another thread, and I quote "an expenditure of 4 to 5 thousand dollars is far better spent on a phono stage, a dac, or pre/amp than on any cable product"
(my humble apology Roger if I didn't quote you exactly).
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I always consult with engineers who are not in the audio business and who have no interest in high performance audio. Their reaction to some of the stuff that's being sold to unsuspecting consumers is eye opening.
Doc
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I guess I don't see the difference between an attempt at an upsell in an audio salon vs my local car dealership or a contractor in my home.
If you don't understand the motivations of salespeople (only been doing it for closing on 20 years now, currently selling professional services), I guess it bugs you.
To me upsell means to get something better, not something extra that may or may not make a small difference where we hope the thing he just bought will make a big difference.
If I was selling preamps I might upsell someone to a preamp that has a balance control. I adjusted mine today because I like Emmylou in the center when she sings.
I am not opposed to well made interconnects that sell for a reasonable price. The ones supplied with a CD player generally have high capacitance, can be microphonic and may not make a good connection.
I am rather opposed to expensive power cords, power conditioners, premium fuses for several reasons.
1. We can't do much about all the wire from our house to Hoover Dam.
2. In a typical power amp the power transformer primary is wound with 50-100 feet of 16-18 solid industrial copper magnet wire. In a CD player the power transformer has over 100 ft of 26 gauge (very small) wire. Now what do we gain by switching out 6 feet of power cord from 16 gauge to 12 or 14.
3. Shielded power cords do nothing about the unshielded romex in most houses.
4. Unlike designing and building amps, speakers, front ends, the cable, power conditioner, fuse and powercord people don't need to know anything about electronics (it has been demonstrated in several posts on this forum they do not). It is an easy business to get into, just some hand tools.
The people who sell tweaks that have no technical basis don't need to know anything except how to get the audiophile to believe he is missing something. What amuses me is the pseudo-technical stores they make up. To someone who has a working understanding of electronics they sound pretty silly.
I had an amusing sales experience when I went to a car dealership to buy a used truck. The salesman was using various pressure techniques and I pointed out that doesn't work with me. I said, can't we just talk about this like people? His reply "we are not people, we are salespeople" :icon_surprised:
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"That's not a great idea. Why would you ask someone who has no experience to conjecture about what the facts really are?" DaveC113
1: They're not trying to sell me something. Never trust someone who is.
2: My Neighbor, a civil engineer, knows water runs down hill and has never tried to convince me otherwise.
Doc
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"That's not a great idea. Why would you ask someone who has no experience to conjecture about what the facts really are"
1: They're not trying to sell me something. Never trust someone who is.
2: My Neighbor, a civil engineer, knows water runs down hill and has never tried to convince me otherwise.
Doc
Doc, I am not sure who you are quoting here. Please include the quote.
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2: My Neighbor, a civil engineer, knows water runs down hill and has never tried to convince me otherwise.
Doc
Does he know how it gets back up hill?.......
Or did it take someone else to figure that out?
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I'm a non-engineer scientist in a family of engineers, and it's easy for me to say that engineers get things wrong all the time.
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I take no offense at the public perception of salespeople, most have only ever encountered one in a retail setting. Tons of horror stories, including some I have experienced myself.
My father is an Electrical, as is one of my brothers, so I know the value and mindset of the education they share.
I think Roger made some great points about his interpretation of upsell, and in many cases he is right.
I also know that some less scrupulous people will snow anyone for a buck.
I get that it sticks in the craw of some folks that some are being taken. I happen to know what sound I like, and I am happy to part with my $ to get it. If I happen to have cloth ears and am fleeced often, at least I do so in the warm mantle of ignorance! :lol:
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That's not a great idea. Why would you ask someone who has no experience to conjecture about what the facts really are? Engineers are only people, and are wrong ALL THE TIME! Others tend to put the "expert" hat on engineers and in time they start to actually believe it, even when it is completely unwarranted.
I hate to say it, but in industry that employs a lot of engineers, they don't tend to be a popular group because of their know-it-all attitudes and are often very difficult to work with.
As an Engineer, I can tell you they give away degrees to people that don't even comprehend calculus and have no business being in the profession at all. Take the "engineer" thing with a grain of salt, imo... it may mean absolutely nothing. (Yes, this also applies to me :))
Kudos Dave. I have great respect for people who willingly admit that they don't know everything, even when they are seen by others as "the expert." We all know that there are phenomena in this world that science can not, and may not ever be able to fully explain. And with that, as I've stated earlier, I try to keep an open mind, and maybe more importantly, I do my best to keep my mind open to learning new things. Knowledge is king. Experiences make us who we are.
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I can hear the differences in using the fuses, but I refuse to spend over $50 for one. Audiophile fuses do blow on occasion. The $20 AMR gold fuses is all I ever use. Many audiophiles that believes in fuses scoff on the AMR because of the low price compared to all of the others....
Have you compared AMR fuse to standard fuse wrapped with Teflon plumber's tape? If yes, what did you think?
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The standard fuse with Teflon tape would meet all necessary functional safety testing and certification. Easy choice.
Steve
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A member here suggested the Teflon wrap on the fuses. I wrapped Teflon tape around every fuse in every component. I listened, wrapped, listened, then went on to the next component. Honestly, I was open to anything from hearing no difference to a moderately big improvement. Some items like my receivers there seemed to be no difference. Other pieces seemed more audible.
One component (since sold) that seemed to benefit the most from the Teflon tape, estimate 30%, was Bongiorno's Trinaural Processor.
I wonder if trapping heat in the glass housing (or whatever is the material) might cause the fuse to blow prematurely.
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I wonder if trapping heat in the glass housing (or whatever is the material) might cause the fuse to blow prematurely.
A fuse is as close to zero ohms as possible and therefore there would be infinitesimal voltage drop across the fuse and correspondingly negligible power dissipation.
Steve
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Doc, I am not sure who you are quoting here. Please include the quote.
"That's not a great idea. Why would you ask someone who has no experience to conjecture about what the facts really are?" DaveC113
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Preferences, esthetics or pride in ownership, all have their place in our hobby as does Euphonic.
Hi-Fi is a term couched in noble & artistic aspirations. We all get our 'dander up' when when Best/better
is applied. Reminds me of the Voltaire Quote Great is the enemy of the Good. In this sense substitute
best/better for : accurate, Faithful, Musical.
But it usually comes down to good design & engineering.
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A big part of the problem with our hobby is how passive the customers are. In the old days, a LOT more people built kits, and thus had at least a nodding familiarity with electronics. Now it's all just black boxes and voodoo. I'm not casting any stones, just stating facts. Plus I have my own glass house to live in since I used to be exactly one of those types of audiophiles. Building stuff opens up your eyes, quick.
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A big part of the problem with our hobby is how passive the customers are. In the old days, a LOT more people built kits, and thus had at least a nodding familiarity with electronics. Now it's all just black boxes and voodoo. I'm not casting any stones, just stating facts. Plus I have my own glass house to live in since I used to be exactly one of those types of audiophiles. Building stuff opens up your eyes, quick.
Agreed and I take it that you are now building stuff?
May I add that measuring stuff (in addition to listening) has opened my eyes very wide. I am up to book four of my notes I call "Various Amplifiers Tested". That is over 200 amps and preamps tested. Any amp that crosses my bench gets a full workout. John Atkinson does an excellent job of amplifier testing and it is worth getting familiar with his measurements. I contend if an amplifier measures really badly it cannot possibly sound good to a person who knows what good sound is.
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I bought a phono amp from an audiophile awhile back. Before he would sell it to me, he wanted to make sure it would meet my needs and work in my system (the gain of the pre-amp in relation to the output of the cartridge, etc.). I found that unusually conscientious, as most sellers care more about selling a piece than insuring it will work well for the buyer. Anyway, he advised me to wear gloves when touching the tubes, and to try different tubes in the amp, etc. The ad stated that the amp had been fitted with a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse, and the picture showed what looked like Herbie's tube Dampers on the three tubes. When he told me the dampers were made by the amp's manufacturer (which I knew not to be the case), I realized that he didn't know as much about the amp as I did. But okay, I bought it.
Imagine my surprise when upon it's arrival I heard something rattling around inside the box. The seller, who was so concerned that I might touch the tubes without gloves, had left not only the tubes installed in their sockets, but the heavy metal tube dampers in place on the tubes! With all that weight on them, the tubes were, of course, ripped out of the sockets, all their pins bent. When I informed him of this, and said that I didn't mention removing the tubes for shipping because I thought surely anyone owning tubes would already know this, especially if he considered touching a tube without a glove a bad idea, he blamed the damage on the fact that I had not told him about not shipping the tubes installed! Oy! He did know that the amp really, really needed that special fuse, though, didn't he? Wonder where he got that idea? I'll tell you where-----from subjective reviewers. A lot of them remind me of this guy.....skewed priorities.
Speaking of which.....Bill Johnson told a story about the founder and editor of an unfortunately influential rag who had one of the ARC pre-amps in for review. The guy contacted Bill because the pre-amp was, the guy said, defective. Bill had him send the amp back to Minnesota, and quickly discovered the "defect". Harry, oops, I mean the reviewer had installed shorting caps on the unused inputs of the pre-amp, and also on the unused OUTPUT jacks of the amp! Well, :duh:. He knew that shorting the unused inputs was essential in getting the best sound out of pre-amps, but not that shorting the outputs was a VERY bad idea. A person like that has NO business "reviewing" hi-fi products, don't you agree? See, J. Gordon Holt knew his engineering, AND listened to the gear he reviewed. Is that asking too much of our reviewers?
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Agreed and I take it that you are now building stuff?
May I add that measuring stuff (in addition to listening) has opened my eyes very wide. I am up to book four of my notes I call "Various Amplifiers Tested". That is over 200 amps and preamps tested. Any amp that crosses my bench gets a full workout. John Atkinson does an excellent job of amplifier testing and it is worth getting familiar with his measurements. I contend if an amplifier measures really badly it cannot possibly sound good to a person who knows what good sound is.
Indeed - I built my last 2 sets of speakers and am going to build a 3rd set soon. For amps, it's just been a couple of F5's and a Burning Amp 3, all First Watt designs. I am very, very far from any kind of expert, but I do have to say that there's a lot less voodoo and woo going on in your thinking when you are dealing with the engineering side of things.
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I bought a phono amp from an audiophile awhile back. Before he would sell it to me, he wanted to make sure it would meet my needs and work in my system (the gain of the pre-amp in relation to the output of the cartridge, etc.). I found that unusually conscientious, as most sellers care more about selling a piece than insuring it will work well for the buyer. Anyway, he advised me to wear gloves when touching the tubes, and to try different tubes in the amp, etc. The ad stated that the amp had been fitted with a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse, and the picture showed what looked like Herbie's tube Dampers on the three tubes. When he told me the dampers were made by the amp's manufacturer (which I knew not to be the case), I realized that he didn't know as much about the amp as I did. But okay, I bought it.
Imagine my surprise when upon it's arrival I heard something rattling around inside the box. The seller, who was so concerned that I might touch the tubes without gloves, had left not only the tubes installed in their sockets, but the heavy metal tube dampers in place on the tubes! With all that weight on them, the tubes were, of course, ripped out of the sockets, all their pins bent. When I informed him of this, and said that I didn't mention removing the tubes for shipping because I thought surely anyone owning tubes would already know this, especially if he considered touching a tube without a glove a bad idea, he blamed the damage on the fact that I had not told him about not shipping the tubes installed! Oy! He did know that the amp really, really needed that special fuse, though, didn't he? Wonder where he got that idea? I'll tell you where-----from subjective reviewers. A lot of them remind me of this guy.....skewed priorities.
Speaking of which.....Bill Johnson told a story about the founder and editor of an unfortunately influential rag who had one of the ARC pre-amps in for review. The guy contacted Bill because the pre-amp was, the guy said, defective. Bill had him send the amp back to Minnesota, and quickly discovered the "defect". Harry, oops, I mean the reviewer had installed shorting caps on the unused inputs of the pre-amp, and also on the unused OUTPUT jacks of the amp! Well, :duh:. He knew that shorting the unused inputs was essential in getting the best sound out of pre-amps, but not that shorting the outputs was a VERY bad idea. A person like that has NO business "reviewing" hi-fi products, don't you agree? See, J. Gordon Holt knew his engineering, AND listened to the gear he reviewed. Is that asking too much of our reviewers?
Thanks for sharing your experience which is typical of audiophile misunderstanding. Lets see where some of these things come from
1. Someone got the idea that you cant touch tubes with bare fingers (hence the cotton gloves) because of the problem of contamination on the glass of Quartz lamps. Tubes are not made of that kind of glass and do not run that hot. I find this a good example of the misapplication of knowledge or that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
2. While cryo treating metals for their mechanical properties makes some sense, I do not see how it applies to the metal in a tube that is working with electrons.
3. I have some real issues with burn-in. It applies to speakers of course as the suspension loosens up. I cannot see how it applies to cables or electronic parts. Someone please enlighten me on that one. It has become such a popular question that manufacturers (not me) are putting it in the specs. When it comes to electronics I think the burn in is going on in the listeners ears getting used to the new sound. If burn-in is real how come it wasn't discovered in the 1950s.
I have often told the story of visiting Harry oops in Glencove in the early 1980s. I had just flown in from California and fell asleep on his couch (my sales manager at the time was close to Harry as they shared a love of Corvettes) and I was told Harry didn't like that. Wandering around as they discussed cars I saw an ARC preamp upended in the bar sink and lots of gear all over the place. At the end of our visit as Harry got into his as we said good by in the driveway he leaned over the top of his Corvette and said. "Audio is a drug and I am the audio pusher". Until recently I though TAS was the biggest offender of "hey give me a good review and keep the amp" I was told that David Manley would roll up in his milk truck and just throw amps to the reviewers. Why do you think that for years several companies were TAS favorites. Given this discussion about fuses and the general quality of reviewing by Positive Feedback I would say they have surpassed TAS in irresponsible journalism.
When the first Tuning Fuse report came out (the one I mentioned in my survey last year) I wrote the Editor of PF to inform him that his reviewer got current and voltage mixed up. I offered my services as a technical editor. He asked "do you know what an editor does, I doubt you could do it" I replied "well given that review you certainly aren't doing it" :nono: Perhaps you need a Technical Editor to check for accuracy of content so you don't embarrass yourself. He really doesn't care.
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The blind leading the insecure. And the egos involved in the reviewing racket-----it's worse than the product marketers. The newest twist on getting the gig---and I see this particularly at PF---is a rich enthusiast buying himself a very expensive system, and then reviewing it, piece by piece. Apparently the only qualification required to review a piece of expensive gear is to already own it. Hey, I own a BMW 528e; do I get to be on the staff at Road & Track? It was bad enough when a reviewer would buy his review sample at the "industry accommodation" price after the review was published (seems possibly unethical to me, at the least an easy road to corruption), but now a rich boy gets to buy his coolness-----impressing his Hi-Fi hobbyist pals, both he and they thinking he is now a mover-and-shaker in his and their identity-creating obsession. They're the guys who play only demonstration-quality material on their system, constantly reassuring themselves that it is still State Of The Art.
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In searching PF there are several reviews of Tuning Fuses. Does this look like payola? If you seach "tuning fuse" on PF archives you will get 7 pages of hits, at 10 per page thats 70 hits. They even gave the fuse an award. They have all the reviewers using it.
Here is an excerpt from one. Not I have warned against using these for tube fuses. From this reviewer who spoke with the founder directly, perhaps even he doesn't know any better. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue51/hifi_tuning.htm
There was only one potential drawback that I think of with the HiFi-Tuning fuses. Conrad-johnson uses the KTK fuses to protect the amplifier against output tube failure. So when that 6550 tube eventually goes, and like death and taxes, that's a certainty, the tube will take out the fuse. So conrad-johnson owners will have to potentially replace one or two HiFi-Tuning fuses fuse every two or so years. In addition, conrad-johnson amplifier owners should keep around a stock of the conventional fuses to check which tube is bad before replacing the HiFi-Tuning fuses!
I looked at the KTK fuse data. It is a very sophisticated high breaking, fast acting fuse. A tuning fuse provides no such protection.
One of the key properties of a high breaking fuse is that it is filled with sand. In this review http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue54/fuses.htm the maker said the following.
These fuses are further resonance optimized by sheathing the internal fuse filament inside a Polyolefin tube, as well as encasing the conductive materials within black ceramics rather than the more common glass. HiFi-Tuning settled on the Polyolefin tube approach once they had exhausted other methods, including filling the fuse body with sand or glass beads. The thermal properties of this ultra-pure conductive material don't lend itself well to the use of sand, and the glass bead process made the production cost prohibitive. The final process applied to all the Supreme3 fuses is that of a proprietary quantum level treatment.
Oh, they would have used glass beads but the cost was prohibitive! How much can glass beads cost? By putting the fuse element inside a Polyolefin tube they contained the silver vapor (plasma created when the fuse blows) further reducing the effectiveness of the fuse. In a high breaking application the plasma continues to conduct long after the element has blown, often melting the holder. As far as being a fuse it is about the worst a fuse could be. Oh yes, they were going to use sand to prevent resonance (gosh that little soft wire is just like a guitar string, we can't have that playing some note) :nono: What is a quantum level treatment? :scratch:
The more reviews I read in PF the more I find things like this from Jeff Parks. I guess he is on the Tuning Fuse payola program to use them in everything he reviews. It is interesting to note that there are 100 hits for "premium fuses" which includes tuning fuses and 70 for "tuning fuses' alone. So by subtraction all the other premium fuses (and there are many) are only getting 30% exposure.
Recently I have discovered by replacing a product's internal cheap tin-based fuses with a far superior fuse from HIFI Tuning fuses the improvement in sound can be dumbfounding. Each time I replaced the stock fuse with a HIFI Silver Star tuning fuse in a piece of gear I heard a dramatic improvement in speed, soundstage, clarity, transparency, and even a bit more bass with added dynamic slam. All of this from a little $59.95 fuse.
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Hi all.
I am not sure if I am off topic, but here it goes anyway.
I gather all those citations from left and right over a few years.
An audiophile is someone who can hear differences among various components, cables, etc… even when there aren't any.
An audiophile can confirm that there is a difference in sound,
even no components have been changed,
only by suggesting him, that some changes have been made.
It’s a fact that many audiophiles concern themselves with connectors
and power cords and all the fancy tweaks,
when these at are pale in comparison to the effect of room acoustics.
Room treatments are the most grossly overlooked and misunderstood aspect of hi-end audio.
Sometimes, room treatment can only be bookshelves, plushy sofas, thick carpet thick drapes and a few frames on walls.
The industry has now reached the point where wire resistance
and listening quality are not the issues any more,
although listening claims may still be made…
The strategy in selling these extremely expensive products is,
in part, to appeal to those who are looking to impress others with
something unique and extremely expensive and flatter their alter ego.
How a short strand of expensive cable can improve upon
electricity delivered by miles of standard electricity transmission
equipment outside and inside a home?
How short does the (Specialized) wire have to be made before differences can no longer be heard ?
Guy 13
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Hi all.
I am not sure if I am off topic, but here it goes anyway.
I gather all those citations from left and right over a few years.
An audiophile is someone who can hear differences among various components, cables, etc… even when there aren't any.
An audiophile can confirm that there is a difference in sound,
even no components have been changed,
only by suggesting him, that some changes have been made.
It’s a fact that many audiophiles concern themselves with connectors
and power cords and all the fancy tweaks,
when these at are pale in comparison to the effect of room acoustics.
Room treatments are the most grossly overlooked and misunderstood aspect of hi-end audio.
Sometimes, room treatment can only be bookshelves, plushy sofas, thick carpet thick drapes and a few frames on walls.
The industry has now reached the point where wire resistance
and listening quality are not the issues any more,
although listening claims may still be made…
The strategy in selling these extremely expensive products is,
in part, to appeal to those who are looking to impress others with
something unique and extremely expensive and flatter their alter ego.
How a short strand of expensive cable can improve upon
electricity delivered by miles of standard electricity transmission
equipment outside and inside a home?
How short does the (Specialized) wire have to be made before differences can no longer be heard ?
Guy 13
Excellent insight, made me smile as there is a lot of truth here. This I so agree with.
Room treatments are the most grossly overlooked and misunderstood aspect of hi-end audio.
Sometimes, room treatment can only be bookshelves, plushy sofas, thick carpet thick drapes and a few frames on walls.
A wealthy man in Orange County was interested in getting involved with Music Reference. I visited his home which he had been livinig in for at least two years. His listening room was literally a rather large cube with very hard walls, hard floor, very few windows, no drapes, no carpet, one couch. The two of us in the room provided more sound absorption than everything else put together.
We started to converse and I suggested we go outside because it was a nice day. The real reason I wanted to go outside was the I couldn't understand a word that was said in that room it was so live. I have never experienced a room with such horrible reflections. Later he asked me to comment on his system. As nicely as I could I told him I couldn't hear his system, all I could hear is the room. He had some decent equipment. He told me the speaker maker was going to come and make some updates to the speakers in a few days. I wonder if the speaker maker commented on the room. I found it hard to believe that this man had been listening to whatever in this room for over two years.
It is interesting what some people will pay for special room treatment that does the same thing as furniture that you can enjoy. For instance a bookshelf with books of different sizes will do a better job than those assemblages of little wood blocks that people hang on the walls. The blocks are harder than books (more reflective) and the differences in height too small to do anything much below 10 KHZ where you really need it.
I don't understand corner traps at all. At the corner there is a node in a standing wave where there is virtually no air motion to be trapped.
I think the people who design room treatments don't know much about sound waves, which is unfortunate.
I thinks audiophiles trust that someone who makes something knows what they are doing. I find quite the opposite is true when it comes to tweaks, fuses, cables, burn in devices, etc, etc.
I don't understand why people listen down the length of a room when they can listen across the width and reduce side wall reflections.
Instead of pulling your speakers way out from the wall and your speakers into the middle of the room try putting a heavy drape on the wall behind the speakers and a shelf full of books right behind your listening chair. Its a handy place to keep the books too.
I recall one time a fellow told me something that was simply untrue, something that could easily be shown to be untrue. I asked where he got that information. He told me he read it in an advertisement so it must be true. The Admen have finally reached their goal.
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Hi Roger,
thanks for your comments.
Guy 13
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Did everyone see the story (in the L.A. Times Sunday magazine section, with pics) about fifteen years ago on Fabio's music system? Fabio, the male model (women's romance novel covers) with long golden hair? Like that of Michael Green, of Room Tunes---remember THAT charlatan? It was a big system, though I don't remember the details. If I remember correctly, it was the Infinity IRS with Levinson (the company, not the man) amps. From the system's components, you could tell they were chosen by their most important spec-----price. But it was the room that drew my attention; marble floors, lots of glass, hard walls, etc. He knew enough to try and defend his choice of room composition, saying that it was also important to live in a beautiful home. That assumes one finds marble beautiful, of course.
In addition to bookcases, LP racks work well as diffusors, as do those for CD's. I too prefer to place my panels on the long wall, rather than firing down the length of the room. They do need to be away from the wall behind them, but that can be partially accomplished by angling them in quite a bit towards the listening area. As long as they're not parallel to the wall behind them, the returning wave doesn't meet and cancel with the direct sound wave, or reach the listener's ears too closely in time with the direct sound, which we all know causes smearing. I prefer to sit more near-field that most, which also diminishes the contribution of the room to the sound one hears. Magnepan recommends their speakers be listened to from a distance about twice that of the space between them. I don't care for that at all. The Magneplanars might require that distance to allow their side-by-side drivers to integrate properly, but ESL's don't. The old Quads can be listened to from a very near-field distance. The ET LFT's I don't know yet---they still haven't arrived. Another reason the long wall works well for all my panels is that the Tympani IV bass sections are 32" wide, left channel and right; I butt them right up against the side walls, creating a kind of loading (the front and rear sound waves can't wrap around the outsides of the panels and cancel each other. Free bass! Then the Quads/GR Research OB subs are butted right up against the Maggies. That blocks THAT side of the bass panels. More free bass!. A room would have to be pretty wide to accommodate my set-up.
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I thinks audiophiles trust that someone who makes something knows what they are doing.
This isn't unique to audiophiles. This is a general truth about our species. Heck, who among us hasn't exploited the trust of another at least once in his/her life? Memes drive us and the overwhelming majority of us embrace ideas on faith alone (I'll abstain from painting that parallel explicitly). It should come as no surprise that memes which ought to break our credulity fuses pass right around our critical analyses.
The raison d'être of advertising is the manipulation of our decision making. Advances in neuroscience promise to create ever more potent mind viruses. It may seem sinister, but it's just natural progression. 'Quantum' is one of those hot words. Toss it into the description of one's product and it gets an instant whiff of deep physics at work (however pseudo it may actually be).
We have a defense. In the vast ocean of information we call the Internet, all is not misinformation. A real and deep education is available to anyone who can read this post.
On the other hand, this is a hobby. It should be fun. I have 'cable risers' (for instance). I purchased them from an electrical supply house for a few dollars a piece, and I spray painted them high gloss black. I like the way they look and I consider them part of my cable management scheme. I have some OCD tendencies (as most of us do), and they are an outlet via which those tendencies can escape.
With a little education (such as visiting the link you posted earlier, and viewing the breadth of variables which must be considered when selecting a fuse), HiFi Tuning fuses scream, "Danger!" It is only by highlighting what fantastic conductors they are (I'm not validating that claim here) that we are distracted from the aforementioned details. The advertising press provides memetic reinforcement and embellishment. Satisfied customers add their voices to the choir. The meme spreads.
The sonic improvements don't have to be real to be experienced (the point of the link I provided earlier - I could provide many more). In most cases, the fuses will never be tested (called upon for protection), so the risk they impart will never be realized - they can get away with being inappropriate. In other cases, the worst on which I stated that I'd wager will happen. No matter - the blame can always be shifted to the equipment designer.
We are an irrational lot. :wink:
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Excellent insight, made me smile as there is a lot of truth here. This I so agree with.
Room treatments are the most grossly overlooked and misunderstood aspect of hi-end audio.
Sometimes, room treatment can only be bookshelves, plushy sofas, thick carpet thick drapes and a few frames on walls.
A wealthy man in Orange County was interested in getting involved with Music Reference. I visited his home which he had been livinig in for at least two years. His listening room was literally a rather large cube with very hard walls, hard floor, very few windows, no drapes, no carpet, one couch. The two of us in the room provided more sound absorption than everything else put together.
We started to converse and I suggested we go outside because it was a nice day. The real reason I wanted to go outside was the I couldn't understand a word that was said in that room it was so live. I have never experienced a room with such horrible reflections. Later he asked me to comment on his system. As nicely as I could I told him I couldn't hear his system, all I could hear is the room. He had some decent equipment. He told me the speaker maker was going to come and make some updates to the speakers in a few days. I wonder if the speaker maker commented on the room. I found it hard to believe that this man had been listening to whatever in this room for over two years.
It is interesting what some people will pay for special room treatment that does the same thing as furniture that you can enjoy. For instance a bookshelf with books of different sizes will do a better job than those assemblages of little wood blocks that people hang on the walls. The blocks are harder than books (more reflective) and the differences in height too small to do anything much below 10 KHZ where you really need it.
I don't understand corner traps at all. At the corner there is a node in a standing wave where there is virtually no air motion to be trapped.
I think the people who design room treatments don't know much about sound waves, which is unfortunate.
I thinks audiophiles trust that someone who makes something knows what they are doing. I find quite the opposite is true when it comes to tweaks, fuses, cables, burn in devices, etc, etc.
I don't understand why people listen down the length of a room when they can listen across the width and reduce side wall reflections.
Instead of pulling your speakers way out from the wall and your speakers into the middle of the room try putting a heavy drape on the wall behind the speakers and a shelf full of books right behind your listening chair. Its a handy place to keep the books too.
I recall one time a fellow told me something that was simply untrue, something that could easily be shown to be untrue. I asked where he got that information. He told me he read it in an advertisement so it must be true. The Admen have finally reached their goal.
Art Noxon (ASC) could answer all your bass trap (his products are not for just corner placement) questions. He was installing them in recording studios (ones without bass traps built into their walls, something that has been done since the 50's) long before JGH reviewed them in Stereophile (and used for the rest of his life). The company website has a lot of technical, scientific (no, really!) information. The Tube traps are designed in accordance with sound, well-understood and established acoustic theory, and are very effective. I bought a bunch of them out of The Recycler about twenty years ago, ten bucks apiece (about a dozen of them, including a couple of the 15" version!). He's the real deal, an honest-to-God Acoustical Engineer. Yes, degreed :). No Michael Green, he!
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This isn't unique to audiophiles. This is a general truth about our species. Heck, who among us hasn't exploited the trust of another at least once in his/her life? Memes drive us and the overwhelming majority of us embrace ideas on faith alone (I'll abstain from painting that parallel explicitly). It should come as no surprise that memes which ought to break our credulity fuses pass right around our critical analyses.
The raison d'être of advertising is the manipulation of our decision making. Advances in neuroscience promise to create ever more potent mind viruses. It may seem sinister, but it's just natural progression. 'Quantum' is one of those hot words. Toss it into the description of one's product and it gets an instant whiff of deep physics at work (however pseudo it may actually be).
We have a defense. In the vast ocean of information we call the Internet, all is not misinformation. A real and deep education is available to anyone who can read this post.
On the other hand, this is a hobby. It should be fun. I have 'cable risers' (for instance). I purchased them from an electrical supply house for a few dollars a piece, and I spray painted them high gloss black. I like the way they look and I consider them part of my cable management scheme. I have some OCD tendencies (as most of us do), and they are an outlet via which those tendencies can escape.
With a little education (such as visiting the link you posted earlier, and viewing the breadth of variables which must be considered when selecting a fuse), HiFi Tuning fuses scream, "Danger!" It is only by highlighting what fantastic conductors they are (I'm not validating that claim here) that we are distracted from the aforementioned details. The advertising press provides memetic reinforcement and embellishment. Satisfied customers add their voices to the choir. The meme spreads.
The sonic improvements don't have to be real to be experienced (the point of the link I provided earlier - I could provide many more). In most cases, the fuses will never be tested (called upon for protection), so the risk they impart will never be realized - they can get away with being inappropriate. In other cases, the worst on which I stated that I'd wager will happen. No matter - the blame can always be shifted to the equipment designer.
We are an irrational lot. :wink:
The insecurity I mentioned above is very much in evidence in regards to the improvement claimed to have been heard from the use of the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuses. By the way, what exactly do the fuses "tune", anyway? Once one reviewer/audiophile claims to have heard an improvement from their use, no other r/a dare admit he doesn't. Poof, there would go his Audiophile Credibility.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=87434)
I'm not sure if other members caught the play, but here goes. As I said in a previous reply,
Roger started a topic called tuning fuses ( 39 replies 7578 views ), which has been bumped.
Judging by the response to this thread ( 77 replies 1948 views ) I'm wondering why there hasn't
been a larger response to the poll on Roger's tuning fuses thread.
It's real easy to find at the top of the Music Reference page
I'm wondering if there shouldn't be an ongoing topic or circle specifically dealing with questionable
products like these. It's been said that subjective reviewing has it's place but it needs to be made clear
that there is no basis in science for what these products claim to do. In the case of a fuse which could
cause a fire, there needs to be a higher standard.
On a subjective note while walking with a friend we came across a fellow walking his invisible dog. He had
adapted a small speaker to the collar & was able to make his invisible dog spot bark at the push of a button.
He put a smile on each of us he met that day ( the bark sounded like great dane )
*For those unaware an invisible dog is a product similar to a pet rock*
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This is worth what you paid to read it.
I'd wager some money, maybe $50 toward a legal, certified, tax exempt charity of the winner's choosing: if we started with two OEM Trinaural Processors that sounded similar, I could blindly pick the one with the fuse wrapped with Teflon with statistical accuracy presumed higher than chance. (The difference I heard at the time was well beyond subtle.)
No need to argue this point, because I happily admit I could be totally wrong and loose the bet. I'd view it as a fun experiment with a hopefully worthy winner (the charity).
I don't even have the Trinaural anymore. Trinaural designer Bongiorno passed away early '13. He'd publicly scorn anyone proposing that a fuse could affect performance. The Trinaural had IEC Mains receptacle but he believed only in captive AC Mains for all his power amps, even his best and last $7500/pr 60 lb Ampzilla mono blocs. The designer of my all time favorite amp Jack Elliano privately disbelieves in audiophile tweaks such as fuses, etc.
I do suspect that "blind" testing comprises "pass/fail" stress that is the exact opposite of listening to music for enjoyment and pleasure. From my limited reading on the subject of blind tests I suspect its proponents choose to ignore or discard this potential defect in the test parameter.
Did you hear about the guy who lost his imaginary friend?
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Well, with our new ABX Test Box we certainly can run objective listening tests on golden ear fuses, power cords, or whatever, and we routinely do this.
All we need is two identical units with one using the golden ear part of choice. We match levels and then just listen as we please during our work day here. Once in a while when we decide, yes, this is the one like better, we turn the indicator LEDs back on and see if we have guessed "right". Over days of listening and testing, our experience regarding audiophile tweaks has about a 50 percent batting average - a near perfect random guess ability. Wow!
We all spend most of our time, when evaluating anything new in our system, listening with our eyes or with preconceived notions. Our ABX box takes all the fun and authority out of this.
However this keeps us from dragging down design paths that just don't make useful audible improvements and annoys us when I, for example, redesign a preamp board layout to accept all polypropylene capacitors and find that it made no sonic difference at all. It is a nice advertising bullet point however.
Some seem absolutely terrified at the thought of using a proper ABX test box. They don't like risking having their authoritative opinions unmasked as the bullshit it is. I am among those that just had to get over this. However, short term or long term listening, nice weather, cloudy rainy weather, high or low line voltage, downer or upper days, the ABX box does not care, it just gives you the chance to hear the truth, whether you like it or not.
If you want more info regarding our ABX box, e-mail me at avahifi@comcast.net
Frank Van Alstine
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When the first Tuning Fuse report came out (the one I mentioned in my survey last year) I wrote the Editor of PF to inform him that his reviewer got current and voltage mixed up. I offered my services as a technical editor. He asked "do you know what an editor does, I doubt you could do it" I replied "well given that review you certainly aren't doing it" :nono: Perhaps you need a Technical Editor to check for accuracy of content so you don't embarrass yourself. He really doesn't care.
The P.F. magazine already has two writers on it's masthead, S.D. and L.O. and both are technically competent. I don't think that the magazine wants to deal with facts.
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Well, with our new ABX Test Box we certainly can run objective listening tests on golden ear fuses, power cords, or whatever, and we routinely do this.
All we need is two identical units with one using the golden ear part of choice. We match levels and then just listen as we please during our work day here. Once in a while when we decide, yes, this is the one like better, we turn the indicator LEDs back on and see if we have guessed "right". Over days of listening and testing, our experience regarding audiophile tweaks has about a 50 percent batting average - a near perfect random guess ability. Wow!
We all spend most of our time, when evaluating anything new in our system, listening with our eyes or with preconceived notions. Our ABX box takes all the fun and authority out of this.
However this keeps us from dragging down design paths that just don't make useful audible improvements and annoys us when I, for example, redesign a preamp board layout to accept all polypropylene capacitors and find that it made no sonic difference at all. It is a nice advertising bullet point however.
Some seem absolutely terrified at the thought of using a proper ABX test box. They don't like risking having their authoritative opinions unmasked as the bullshit it is. I am among those that just had to get over this. However, short term or long term listening, nice weather, cloudy rainy weather, high or low line voltage, downer or upper days, the ABX box does not care, it just gives you the chance to hear the truth, whether you like it or not.
If you want more info regarding our ABX box, e-mail me at avahifi@comcast.net
Frank Van Alstine
Frank,
This is an excellent way too approach the situation. I do AB testing all the time on a moment to moment basis. I had not considered your longer term, let it ride and check in idea. Thanks for that.
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Hi Roger,
If you would like the user manual for our ABX Test box send an e-mail to me, avahifi@comcast.net and I will send you the .pdf file.
Its a $995 unit that allows connection to a source, two preamps, two power amps, and three sets of speakers either with or without subwoofers. It allows exact level matching and either long term informal testing or short term double blind testing. It works really well.
Frank
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The ABX box sounds awesome! I have half a mind to pick one up and start doing some reviewing with it and publishing my results here. Of course, I am rather jaded at this point about a lot of stuff, as covering RMAF for 10 years has really revealed how much complete and utter BS there is within the industry. I mean seriously - people bring their fancy boxes and big speakers and neglect to address something as basic as room treatments. THAT is what consumers are putting their trust in. Plus, the difference between the very best rooms and the very average rooms is big but not huge. There is an upper limit to what is even possible to reproduce via a stereo, and that limit is MUCH LOWER than people suspect. And no amount of tweaks or BS will affect that upper limit. And trust me, if you treat your room or have a nice listening space, you are MUCH closer to that upper limit than the vast majority of other audiophiles, even reviewers.
That's only my opinion, but it is based on 10 years of solid exposure to the very best that the industry has to offer. People really should make time to go to these shows, it is a huge eye (ear) opener.
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The ABX box sounds awesome! I have half a mind to pick one up and start doing some reviewing with it and publishing my results here. Of course, I am rather jaded at this point about a lot of stuff, as covering RMAF for 10 years has really revealed how much complete and utter BS there is within the industry. I mean seriously - people bring their fancy boxes and big speakers and neglect to address something as basic as room treatments. THAT is what consumers are putting their trust in. Plus, the difference between the very best rooms and the very average rooms is big but not huge. There is an upper limit to what is even possible to reproduce via a stereo, and that limit is MUCH LOWER than people suspect. And no amount of tweaks or BS will affect that upper limit. And trust me, if you treat your room or have a nice listening space, you are MUCH closer to that upper limit than the vast majority of other audiophiles, even reviewers.
That's only my opinion, but it is based on 10 years of solid exposure to the very best that the industry has to offer. People really should make time to go to these shows, it is a huge eye (ear) opener.
I went to a show a couple of years ago and the "cheap gear" Emotiva treated room sounded just as good as any other room at the show. That taught me a valuable lesson.
With regard to tweaks such as fuses, we have to keep in mind that much of high end audio is psychological. If I buy a tweak, I'm already expecting it to sound "better." Whether the improvement is mainly due my expectation or actual fact is irrelevant. I bought it, I heard an improvement, and no one can convince me otherwise. For most consumers, audio gear and tweaks are an emotional purchase, not a technical one.
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Here is a link to the ABX Test Box on our web site:
http://avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=271&Itemid=238
If any would like a .pdf copy of the owners use and setup manual just e-mail me at avahifi@comcastnet
Frank
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Well, with our new ABX Test Box we certainly can run objective listening tests on golden ear fuses, power cords, or whatever, and we routinely do this.
All we need is two identical units with one using the golden ear part of choice. We match levels and then just listen as we please during our work day here. Once in a while when we decide, yes, this is the one like better, we turn the indicator LEDs back on and see if we have guessed "right". Over days of listening and testing, our experience regarding audiophile tweaks has about a 50 percent batting average - a near perfect random guess ability. Wow!
We all spend most of our time, when evaluating anything new in our system, listening with our eyes or with preconceived notions. Our ABX box takes all the fun and authority out of this.
However this keeps us from dragging down design paths that just don't make useful audible improvements and annoys us when I, for example, redesign a preamp board layout to accept all polypropylene capacitors and find that it made no sonic difference at all. It is a nice advertising bullet point however.
Some seem absolutely terrified at the thought of using a proper ABX test box. They don't like risking having their authoritative opinions unmasked as the bullshit it is. I am among those that just had to get over this. However, short term or long term listening, nice weather, cloudy rainy weather, high or low line voltage, downer or upper days, the ABX box does not care, it just gives you the chance to hear the truth, whether you like it or not.
If you want more info regarding our ABX box, e-mail me at avahifi@comcast.net
Frank Van Alstine
Frank, I've always believed in the concept of an ABX box, but then I stared doing restorations of old Dyna gear, and lo and behold, I started working out things like the type of resistors and caps can make a difference in the sonic performance. Then, there is the school of though that says ANY component you add will impact the sound.
So, could you briefly share how you managed to make sure your ABX box does not add or subtract from the sound? I am assuming that the ABX does NOT change impedance seen between the components? Your input on this is appreciated. :thumb:
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Our ABX box has no capacitors in the signal path and we ran extensive AB tests with a special version of the box when we designed it, one that allowed AB testing of the box against itself. One signal path was through the relay connections in the box, the other path straight through. We were satisfied that we could hear no difference between the path using the internal very high quality mechanical computer driven relay contacts and the straight through path. Only then did we proceed with a production box. We use the box all the time here with all equipment we build and test and have had no doubts at all that it is getting in the way of the music.
Of course if you are magic fuse believer then all bets are off, except of course that there are no fuses in the signal path of the box either. :)
Frank
PS In restoring old Dyna equipment you were most likely replacing out of spec aged parts and parts inappropriately used in the original designs, such as polarized capacitors in the signal path not biased on higher then the possible reverse voltage swing. Dyna made that mistake often.
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Our ABX box has no capacitors in the signal path and we ran extensive AB tests with a special version of the box when we designed it, one that allowed AB testing of the box against itself. One signal path was through the relay connections in the box, the other path straight through. We were satisfied that we could hear no difference between the path using the internal very high quality mechanical computer driven relay contacts and the straight through path. Only then did we proceed with a production box. We use the box all the time here with all equipment we build and test and have had no doubts at all that it is getting in the way of the music.
Of course if you are magic fuse believer then all bets are off, except of course that there are no fuses in the signal path of the box either. :)
Frank
PS In restoring old Dyna equipment you were most likely replacing out of spec aged parts and parts inappropriately used in the original designs, such as polarized capacitors in the signal path not biased on higher then the possible reverse voltage swing. Dyna made that mistake often.
Thanks, Frank. My view is pretty much the same as Rogers first post about wires, romex, etc. Hadn't really thought about your points on the old Dyna, but I'm sure you are right. I'll take solid engineering over kool-aid anytime! :lol:
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The ABX box sounds awesome! I have half a mind to pick one up and start doing some reviewing with it and publishing my results here.
That would be cool Tyson. Starting with room treatment products, a large profitable cottage industry devoid of any controlled perceptual testing whatsoever. See if it matches what Toole and Olive et al found.
Regarding magic fuses, as expected, lots of hand waving, burden of proof fallacies, zero basic physics/EE/perceptual science evidence. Enjoy your placebos. The mind makes it real. :wink:
cheers,
AJ
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Here is a link to the ABX Test Box on our web site:
http://avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=271&Itemid=238
If any would like a .pdf copy of the owners use and setup manual just e-mail me at avahifi@comcastnet
Frank
Here’s an excerpt from Roger Russell’s website ( http://www.roger-russell.com ). A must read from a design engineer from the Golden Age Of hi/fi. There are so many topics covered in this website (bible), it should be required reading for anyone interested in hi/end audio, especially neophyte audiophiles. Anyone participating in this thread who has never seen it before, should read it throughout top to bottom. The topics about wire conductivity, skin effect, etc. show exactly how bogus the hype about these conditions are when discussing cable lengths of less than 20 ft. this site is a goldmine of pertinent information.
I’m sure Mr. Van Alstine is familiar with this link ( http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#gordongow ) it’s titled Gordon Gow’s wire listening test. Where Gordon uses a special APP(arratus) for testing wire. Probably a good companion for the ABX tester.
The next link is a short scroll down the page from the last link, ( http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#thetruth ) This link tells the interesting story of how McIntosh Labs was forced by public opinion to start using audiophile cable at the shows where they exhibited. Scroll down to the next topic.
These are just 2 excerpts from this fantastic website which show how advertising agencies have corrupted the mainstream audiophile industry.
I’m going to repeat myself, I’ve been duped by these people myself, & have spent mucho dinero on tweaks which turned out to be useless. If this thread helps one person channel his money into a good sounding system then I’ve done my job. The current value of my home system is approximately $5000 Canadian dollars.
Over the years I’ve spent $2000 on speaker wire, interconnect, and mains cables. The value of the wire I use in my system now is under $500. If my system was worth $20,000 I wouldn’t spend any more on wire.
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Remember when John Atkinson just couldn't take George Tice's Magic Clock nonsense anymore, and had to reveal it for what it was? Where's John on the Magic Fuses I wonder?
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Over the years I’ve spent $2000 on speaker wire, interconnect, and mains cables. The value of the wire I use in my system now is under $500. If my system was worth $20,000 I wouldn’t spend any more on wire.
Hi Fred, while I agree with much of your sentiment, I'll point out that neither you nor I listen blind/controlled at home for pleasure (or at least I certainly don't). As such, if a $2000 cable, a $20k preamp, or, heavens forbid, a $50 magic fuse, causes one to enjoy listening to their system more, then I'm all for it. Our sensory perception goes far beyond what sound impinges upon the ears.
My only contention and reason for being in this thread, is when objective reasons are given as correlations for why.
cheers,
AJ
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Hi Fred, while I agree with much of your sentiment, I'll point out that neither you nor I listen blind/controlled at home for pleasure (or at least I certainly don't). As such, if a $2000 cable, a $20k preamp, or, heavens forbid, a $50 magic fuse, causes one to enjoy listening to their system more, then I'm all for it. Our sensory perception goes far beyond what sound impinges upon the ears.
My only contention and reason for being in this thread, is when objective reasons are given as correlations for why.
cheers,
AJ
Perhaps you're only reason for being in this thread is to make prejudiced statements and semantic arguments without feeling the need to provide objective reasons for them. Saying that people are free to believe whatever they like about something so long as they don't claim some basis on objective truth, is in the end not really saying anything that meaningful at all.
Assuming you're not likely to actually try to listen objectively to an alternative fuse to decide if there's a sound difference, how about you enlighten the grotesquely misinformed about some of the OBJECTIVE reasons why a change in material / construction of a fuse can't make a difference in the sound quality of a component? That would be more useful and informative than repackaging your first comment.
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Hi Fred, while I agree with much of your sentiment, I'll point out that neither you nor I listen blind/controlled at home for pleasure (or at least I certainly don't). As such, if a $2000 cable, a $20k preamp, or, heavens forbid, a $50 magic fuse, causes one to enjoy listening to their system more, then I'm all for it. Our sensory perception goes far beyond what sound impinges upon the ears.
My only contention and reason for being in this thread, is when objective reasons are given as correlations for why.
cheers,
AJ
Like Golden Ratio diameter stranded wire :lol:?
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Hi Fred, while I agree with much of your sentiment, I'll point out that neither you nor I listen blind/controlled at home for pleasure (or at least I certainly don't). As such, if a $2000 cable, a $20k preamp, or, heavens forbid, a $50 magic fuse, causes one to enjoy listening to their system more, then I'm all for it. Our sensory perception goes far beyond what sound impinges upon the ears.
My only contention and reason for being in this thread, is when objective reasons are given as correlations for why.
cheers,
AJ
Your correct we don't listen blind, but blind listening is missing the original point of this post. If you look at the opening post in this thread you
can see it's really a lament on how the hobby has degenerated to the point where if you say you're an audiophile some people look at you as if
you just left hanger 2 at area 51. I noted the fact that the audiophile press is aware of this problem yet the editors of these rags continue to publish
these unsubstantiated reviews.
It really makes you wonder what is going through the mind of Roger Skoff for example to brag about a questionable sales tool in light of the fact that his
company XLO went out of business. He's thumbing his nose at anyone who bought cable from him in my opinion. Maybe he never learned his lesson? Or
maybe he did & got out before the business failed. Investment bankers hedge/fund managers etc. in light of recent history, show a real lack of empathy
for the market i.e. the customers (people). It looks like that mentality has spilled over into retail sales as well. I still can't get over the arrogance in that
article especially the last sentence!
Then through the lens of this forum, you get to see the minority, the Roger Modjeski's the Frank Van Alstines, The Roger Russells, who care about their image
& the image of the hobby itself. These people can't get the recognition they deserve. So how do we get the attention of the managing editors of these magazines.
I don't want to read about Stein Music Harmonizers, I don't want to read about tuning fuses & bogus sales techniques mixed in with reviews of speaker cables,
interconnect, & mains cables. What I want to hear is honesty in reviewing. Give me the good old meat & potatoes of audio, power amps, integrated amps,
pre/amps, phono pre/amps, turntables, cd, SACD, Multiformat players, Dacs, internet audio.
Perhaps most important of all the music! Reviews of real music not audiophile records although I have some, they sound wonderful, they're wonderfully recorded,
but how many times can you listen to jazz at the pawnshop or I've got the music in me. (Hi Fi plus does pretty good music reviews in my opinion).
PFO online the most boring record reviews ever.
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It really makes you wonder what is going through the mind of Roger Skoff for example to brag about a questionable sales tool in light of the fact that his company XLO went out of business. He's thumbing his nose at anyone who bought cable from him in my opinion. Maybe he never learned his lesson? Or maybe he did & got out before the business failed. Investment bankers hedge/fund managers etc. in light of recent history, show a real lack of empathy for the market i.e. the customers (people). It looks like that mentality has spilled over into retail sales as well I still can't get over the arrogance in that article especially the last sentence.
I don't want to read about Stein Music Harmonizers, I don't want to read about tuning fuses & bogus sales techniques mixed in with reviews of speaker cables, interconnect, & mains cables. What I want to hear is honesty in reviewing.
I don't see anything questionable about the sales technique. Let the customer hear the standard cable vs the audiophile cable : if they can't hear the difference or don't think it's worth the price, then they don't buy. Of course humorously Skoff is going to say that those who can't hear a difference between XLO and what comes in the box cables has "wooden ears" : he's a renowned cable designer and believes in his designs and what he does.
I don't see him thumbing his nose either at his customers nor at those who bought XLO products either before or AFTER HE SOLD TO ULTRALINK (2008 2002). From what I understand there were perhaps boardroom politics involved at parent company Ultralink - and I doubt Skoff had much to do about the decision to cease operation. Why would he want to see the company he created go away?
Skoff & XLO are some of the good guys, and they deserve to be treated as such.
As for not wanting to read about ancillary stuff within the main review : then don't. Skip it or turn the page, or find another publication. I believe reviewers should be allowed and encouraged to reference and discuss all elements of the system that was used to evaluate a particular item under review. The more information, the better - assuming of course that there's sufficient and clear coverage of the particular item under review.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=87949)
Your correct we don't listen blind, but blind listening is missing the original point of this post. If you look at the opening post in this thread you
can see it's really a lament on how the hobby has degenerated to the point where if you say you're an audiophile some people look at you as if
you just left hanger 2 at area 51. I noted the fact that the audiophile press is aware of this problem yet the editors of these rags continue to publish
these unsubstantiated reviews.
Imagine that quoting myself.
It occurred to me while re/reading my last addition to this forum, to ask what audiophile related magazines do you read??
& which ones would you recommend for honesty & accurracy in reporting. Are there any internet magazines which charge a
fee, and accept no advertising left out there. Those 2 attributes could be indicators of honest reviewing. A technical editor would be a plus.
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I don't see anything questionable about the sales technique. Let the customer hear the standard cable vs the audiophile cable : if they can't hear the difference or don't think it's worth the price, then they don't buy. Of course humorously Skoff is going to say that those who can't hear a difference between XLO and what comes in the box cables has "wooden ears" : he's a renowned cable designer and believes in his designs and what he does.
I don't see him thumbing his nose either at his customers nor at those who bought XLO products either before or AFTER HE SOLD TO ULTRALINK (2008). From what I understand there were perhaps boardroom politics involved at parent company Ultralink - and I doubt Skoff had much to do about the decision to cease operation. Why would he want to see the company he created go away?
Skoff & XLO are some of the good guys, and they deserve to be treated as such.
As for not wanting to read about ancillary stuff within the main review : then don't. Skip it or turn the page, or find another publication. I believe reviewers should be allowed and encouraged to reference and discuss all elements of the system that was used to evaluate a particular item under review. The more information, the better - assuming of course that there's sufficient and clear coverage of the particular item under review.
We're going have agree to disagree.
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Assuming you're not likely to actually try to listen objectively to an alternative fuse to decide if there's a sound difference
Well, that makes both of us. :wink:
Although for entirely different reasons. Unless you are suggesting your listening will be blind/controlled?
Please do share your preferred objective listening method.
how about you enlighten the grotesquely misinformed about some of the OBJECTIVE reasons why a change in material / construction of a fuse can't make a difference in the sound quality of a component?
I most certainly wouldn't try to prove a negative and on the same token, unburden you from the proof of plausibility that scam fuses "in the current path" might correlate to sound quality. Physics/EE type evidence within known perceptual thresholds would suffice, in lieu of straight up perceptual data. I'm definitely open minded about that sort of thing, as should you be.
cheers,
AJ
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Roger A. Modjeski
Facilitator
Posts: 927
» Gallery
Re: Tuning Fuses
« Reply #38 on: Today at 02:51 am »
Quote
Giving this a bump since we are at it again. Please vote. At the time of this writing there are 44 votes.
I received this from Roger this morning & am bringing it to this thread once more as there is a survey on the tuning fuses post
at the top of Music Reference Circle page 1.
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It would seem obvious/logical to take a handful of these fuses and subject them to some objective destructive testing to see how they perform in their primary job. As anyone done this yet? Maybe I've missed it?
Dave.
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It would seem obvious/logical to take a handful of these fuses and subject them to some objective destructive testing to see how they perform in their primary job. As anyone done this yet? Maybe I've missed it?
Dave.
Hi Dave.
At 50 USD a pop, who's ready (Read, financially wealthy enough) to make an expensive test like that?
I would guess, not even the manufacturer himself is ready to do that test,
otherwise they would brag about it in their advertising/marketing.
They are more concern about sound quality, than safety.
Guy 13
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Your correct we don't listen blind
Right, which means all our biases/perceptions are in play. No immunity.
If you look at the opening post in this thread you can see it's really a lament on how the hobby has degenerated to the point where if you say you're an audiophile some people look at you as if you just left hanger 2 at area 51.
Quite frankly I wouldn't care what people think as long as I enjoy my music, plus I don't identify as an audiophile anyway.
I don't want to read about Stein Music Harmonizers, I don't want to read about tuning fuses & bogus sales techniques mixed in with reviews of speaker cables, interconnect, & mains cables. What I want to hear is honesty in reviewing.
Much like those lamenting talk radio blathering, have you considered not tuning in? Perhaps, that is what those who do, want to hear?
Give me the good old meat & potatoes of audio, power amps, integrated amps,
pre/amps, phono pre/amps, turntables, cd, SACD, Multiformat players, Dacs, internet audio.
Perhaps most important of all the music! Reviews of real music not audiophile records although I have some, they sound wonderful, they're wonderfully recorded
Markets are driven by supply and demand.
Start a collection thread for Tyson's ABX box and have vendors start sending him stuff.
I might be hesitant because I suspect he's one of those iso-ward room ultra precision studio pan-pot artificial constructs types and I'm more in the Toole/Olive/Fincham/Linkwitz school. Plus I have my own preferences stated as such. :wink:
But it would be a start.
cheers,
AJ
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Remember when John Atkinson just couldn't take George Tice's Magic Clock nonsense anymore, and had to reveal it for what it was? Where's John on the Magic Fuses I wonder?
I got in trouble with George Tice when I revealed in my dealer newletter that the Tice Power Blocks degraded the sound quality in your system. I guess one of my customers reported me. George yanked my Tice dealership.
The nerve of him.
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Perhaps you're only reason for being in this thread is to make prejudiced statements and semantic arguments without feeling the need to provide objective reasons for them. Saying that people are free to believe whatever they like about something so long as they don't claim some basis on objective truth, is in the end not really saying anything that meaningful at all.
......and perhaps that's the whole point. You can't disprove what someone else senses or perceives. So what is the point of trying to make that person out to be a fool? I'll say this again, there are things in this world that science can not explain and may never be able to explain. Further, there are way too many factors involved to say that a tweak definitely (proven objectively) works 100% in all possible scenarios. I guess that's what makes them tweaks. If they worked 100% of the time in all possible scenarios, they wouldn't be tweaks now would they? That's not to say that I don't believe that some things in this hobby are ridiculous, but as AJ is basically saying, if it works for you (ie makes you happy) then what is the problem, other than the fact that maybe this person got hosed........but it's not your money or time or energy, so really, how can we arrive at a truly meaningful discussion here? I must say, out of all the info in this thread, the point made about Hi Fi Tuning fuses not being UL listed or certified in any way, is enough for me to snub them. That the rags love them (despite the fore mentioned fact) only points out that you should always do your own research and not just buy into what some dude, whom you don't know personally, says.
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Well, that makes both of us. :wink:
Although for entirely different reasons. Unless you are suggesting your listening will be blind/controlled?
Please do share your preferred objective listening method.
I most certainly wouldn't try to prove a negative and on the same token, unburden you from the proof of plausibility that scam fuses "in the current path" might correlate to sound quality. Physics/EE type evidence within known perceptual thresholds would suffice, in lieu of straight up perceptual data. I'm definitely open minded about that sort of thing, as should you be.
cheers,
AJ
Unlike you I haven't come out and declared that fuses can or can't make a sound quality difference. All I said was that I would be willing to give a listen and decide then. There's been a few different tweaks that I've demoed lately where either I heard no difference, or only a marginal one to not make it worth investing in. So I don't by nature have a bias for or against "tweaks". I try to rely on experience as objectively as I can as opposed to coming at it with preconceived notions, whether based on "objectivity" or "subjectivity". And if someone put me in front of one of Frank's ABX machines or what not, I'd be happy to do so. Heck - I'd welcome it. Would make the evaluation job a lot faster and easier. As much as I'm sure on the basis of it's construction & merit it's worth every penny of the $1K asking price, that's a bit too much of a $ investment for me for my occasional use.
Why don't you want to make an effort to prove a negative statement you've made? If "physics/EE type evidence within known perceptual thresholds would suffice", how about you elaborate further?
Tell you what : I'm going to get one of these fuse things and decide for myself - albeit one with a money back guarantee, then there's really no financial risk.
In turn, how about you do something more than dodge by trying to actually discuss what the objective scientific reasons are for stating that an "audiophile" fuse can't and won't make a difference in the sound? That shouldn't cost you anything either monetarily.
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Quote from: jarcher on Today at 08:33 pm
how about you enlighten the grotesquely misinformed about some of the OBJECTIVE reasons why a change in material / construction of a fuse can't make a difference in the sound quality of a component?
Well, that makes both of us. :wink:
Although for entirely different reasons. Unless you are suggesting your listening will be blind/controlled?
Please do share your preferred objective listening method.
I most certainly wouldn't try to prove a negative and on the same token, unburden you from the proof of plausibility that scam fuses "in the current path" might correlate to sound quality. Physics/EE type evidence within known perceptual thresholds would suffice, in lieu of straight up perceptual data. I'm definitely open minded about that sort of thing, as should you be.
cheers,
AJ
I think you're both missing the point!!! have either of you even read the opening post? The concern is audiophile fuses
from 2 different companies being compared for their soundstaging & imaging ability, and the detail improvement when
these fuses were in use. Essentially which company made a better sounding fuse. When the real problem is whether either
product can do it's job as a fuse. The issue is promoting a product which blows up the equipment it's used in!!
Roger originally broached the topic on another post titled Tuning Fuses he began the topic because of an amplifier repair
which had come in. Where the owner of the amp had replaced all the fuses in his amp with tuning fuses. Needless to say
the amp had Chernobled. So I'm wondering if noting the soundstage, the imaging, & the detail of the amp at the point of
eruption is a subjective or an objective action. The gist of the post is irresponsible journalism. How's that for objective?
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......and perhaps that's the whole point. You can't disprove what someone else senses or perceives. So what is the point of trying to make that person out to be a fool? I'll say this again, there are things in this world that science can not explain and may never be able to explain. Further, there are way too many factors involved to say that a tweak definitely (proven objectively) works 100% in all possible scenarios. I guess that's what makes them tweaks. If they worked 100% of the time in all possible scenarios, they wouldn't be tweaks now would they? That's not to say that I don't believe that some things in this hobby are ridiculous, but as AJ is basically saying, if it works for you (ie makes you happy) then what is the problem, other than the fact that maybe this person got hosed........but it's not your money or time or energy, so really, how can we arrive at a truly meaningful discussion here? I must say, out of all the info in this thread, the point made about Hi Fi Tuning fuses not being UL listed or certified in any way, is enough for me to snub them. That the rags love them (despite the fore mentioned fact) only points out that you should always do your own research and not just buy into what some dude, whom you don't know personally, says.
Playing the relativistic card doesn't really advance the conversation: i.e. do what makes you happy, YMMV, yada yada. I already know that.
But in this case there are claims being made on scientific objective basis for & against these fuses with respect to sound quality, and I want to hear both arguments. But as for the arguments against, so far mostly on this thread I'm only getting invectives against the "snake oil salesman" and appeals to authority and science which are not being substantiated.
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Hi Dave.
At 50 USD a pop, who's ready (Read, financially wealthy enough) to make an expensive test like that?
I would guess, not even the manufacturer himself is ready to do that test,
otherwise they would brag about it in their advertising/marketing.
They are more concern about sound quality, than safety.
Guy 13
Guy,
Yes, you've made my point for me.
You sell a fuse and your primary concern is sound quality vice safety. :) How upside down is that? :)
It's brilliant marketing and pricing.......I guess.
Dave.
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Quote from: jarcher on Today at 08:33 pm
how about you enlighten the grotesquely misinformed about some of the OBJECTIVE reasons why a change in material / construction of a fuse can't make a difference in the sound quality of a component?
I think you're both missing the point!!! have either of you even read the opening post? The concern is audiophile fuses
from 2 different companies being compared for their soundstaging & imaging ability, and the detail improvement when
these fuses were in use. Essentially which company made a better sounding fuse. When the real problem is whether either
product can do it's job as a fuse. The issue is promoting a product which blows up the equipment it's used in!!
Roger originally broached the topic on another post titled Tuning Fuses he began the topic because of an amplifier repair
which had come in. Where the owner of the amp had replaced all the fuses in his amp with tuning fuses. Needless to say
the amp had Chernobled. So I'm wondering if noting the soundstage, the imaging, & the detail of the amp at the point of
eruption is a subjective or an objective action. The gist of the post is irresponsible journalism. How's that for objective?
I haven't seen enough evidence yet that there is a widespread issue with these fuses not being sufficiently safe. The moderators one experience is concerning - but one case doesn't make a rule.
How many of the boutique audio products including high power amps have UL listing or independent safety certifications? And we happily plug those things away and even leave them unattended. I had one personal experience of flipping the switch on a big Audio Research tube amp with a bad tube, and sparks and FIRE came out as it melted a resistor! And it had fresh standard fuses, which seemed to be no help. I've heard stories of Parasound Halo amps totally melting down when speaker wires were crossed - and those have standard fuses as well. Two (or more!) wrongs don't make a right, and I'd certainly feel more comfortable with a UL etc certification on an "audiophile" fuse, but I think you know where I'm going with this.
Perhaps you are right and the topic of this thread is the SAFETY of "audiophile" fuses. I had assume that it was also about their potential affect on sound quality, positive, negative, or none.
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Playing the relativistic card doesn't really advance the conversation: i.e. do what makes you happy, YMMV, yada yada. I already know that.
But in this case there are claims being made on scientific objective basis for & against these fuses with respect to sound quality, and I want to hear both arguments. But as for the arguments against, so far mostly on this thread I'm only getting invectives against the "snake oil salesman" and appeals to authority and science which are not being substantiated.
Anyone who can claim scientifically that these tweak fuses can or can't make a difference with 100% certainty either way, for or against, I'd love to see the proof. It wasn't just a relativistic card, I played. As I stated earlier, there are way too many scenarios, which means there'd be way too many testing methodologies involved to even attempt to go about such a study. Where would one start? As this scientific study is likely to never take place, maybe we should stop trying to make a "meaningful discussion" out of a moot point. So basically, what you're getting at is that you want people (the one's with stated science objectivity) to admit that they can't 100% prove or disprove their statement. And what's the point of that? It's all moot.
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We're going have agree to disagree.
Seeing as this post seems to have been a slam on Skoff (and "audiophile" fuses), for the former I direct interested readers to the following from Skoff
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/1213/skoffing_being_critical.htm
Doesn't sound to me like the writing of someone who doesn't care about customers or wants to fleece them. Also helps to put the sales technique from the previously posted article / link in context. I.e. if customers can't best be helped to evaluate what cable they prefer in a typical A/B scenario, why not do a SINGLE blind test and let them decide if they hear something they like? Obviously not all customers need that : some will be comfortable enough with themselves and their listening skills and know clearly what they want and like that all the salesperson needs to do is the donkey work of swapping cables.
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Anyone who can claim scientifically that these tweak fuses can or can't make a difference with 100% certainty either way, for or against, I'd love to see the proof. It wasn't just a relativistic card, I played. As I stated earlier, there are way too many scenarios, which means there'd be way too many testing methodologies involved to even attempt to go about such a study. Where would one start? As this scientific study is likely to never take place, maybe we should stop trying to make a "meaningful discussion" out of a moot point. So basically, what you're getting at is that you want people (the one's with stated science objectivity) to admit that they can't 100% prove or disprove their statement. And what's the point of that? It's all moot.
I take your point and am not asking / expecting 100% scientific certainty. Would just appreciate more responses such as the moderators who present points such as "the fuse is too far away from the signal path to make a difference". There are least is an attempt at a rational explanation. Feel like I'm spinning my wheels on that attempt though. Here at AC looking for more reasoned posts than just the usual love / hate spouting you find on too many forums. There are certainly many people here with the personal experience and technical knowledge to assist in that respect. At least that's been my experience frequently on other technical questions.
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I haven't seen enough evidence yet that there is a widespread issue with these fuses not being sufficiently safe. The moderators one experience is concerning - but one case doesn't make a rule.
How many of the boutique audio products including high power amps have UL listing or independent safety certifications? And we happily plug those things away and even leave them unattended. I had one personal experience of flipping the switch on a big Audio Research tube amp with a bad tube, and sparks and FIRE came out as it melted a resistor! And it had fresh standard fuses, which seemed to be no help. I've heard stories of Parasound Halo amps totally melting down when speaker wires were crossed - and those have standard fuses as well. Two (or more!) wrongs don't make a right, and I'd certainly feel more comfortable with a UL etc certification on an "audiophile" fuse, but I think you know where I'm going with this.
Perhaps you are right and the topic of this thread is the SAFETY of "audiophile" fuses. I had assume that it was also about their potential affect on sound quality, positive, negative, or none.
Re: ARC's blowing up: I brought my brand-spanking-new SP-3 Pre-amp home from my dealer (Walt Davies, now the man who makes the Last products, and a really swell guy) in 1973, plugged it into my system, and turned it on. NyaaangPIFT!!! A resistor blew, and not because of a tube---good, bad, or indifferent. The beginning of my love/hate affair with Audio Research Corporation electronics, soon to be over (guess I'm a slow learner!).
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There were some amazing poorly informed comments about room acoustics and treatments posted earlier in this topic by some people who should know better. Those interested in more useful information can start with some of these links, although there is lots more technically oriented information if one wants to go beyond the basics (because some of the following links are "white papers" rather than peer-reviewed articles)
http://www.acousticsciences.com//press-room/articles/how-tubetraps-opened-whole-new-realm-precision-performance-audio-playback-systems
http://www.acousticsciences.com/press-room/articles
http://www.rpginc.com/Technology.cfm
http://www.rpginc.com/docs/Technology/White%20Papers/Acoustic%20Diffusers_The%20Good,%20The%20Bad%20and%20The%20Ugly.pdf
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Remember when John Atkinson just couldn't take George Tice's Magic Clock nonsense anymore, and had to reveal it for what it was? Where's John on the Magic Fuses I wonder?
I am working on a letter to JA to hopefully publish. I have had enough of this follishess. I plan to stick to just the facts please. I will go into how these fuses are not suitable for any high breaking application such as tube fuses.
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It would seem obvious/logical to take a handful of these fuses and subject them to some objective destructive testing to see how they perform in their primary job. As anyone done this yet? Maybe I've missed it?
Dave.
I have done this. The fuse will offer no protection as a tube fuse in a DC circuit. The wire turns to plasma. I have already explained the process in detail. If you cant find it I will for you.
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I agree nobody has actually tested the fuses, and the fact the HiFi Tuning fuses were misused by a customer means NOTHING, as a high break fuse could be replaced by a slow blow fuse of ANY make. But the fact the customer was misinformed somehow makes HiFi Tuning fuses bad? That's ridiculous. And the assumptions made by "experts" here are many times similarly ridiculous.
I think this thread should be locked, it's going nowhere and accomplishing nothing except generating animosity. :thumbdown:
On thing is for sure, I'm out.
Hi Dave,
I am the nobody who has tested the fuses. The customer did not misuse the fuse. He was told the fuse was suitable for his application. Even Miles Astor at PF, who has direct information from the factory suggests them as replacement for the high breaking fuses in his CJ. He goes further to say that a tube failure is inevitable so have more on hand.
Please read reply #70 on this thread, perhaps you missed it.
After seeing how and analyzing why the HI FI Tuning fuse damaged the RM-9 and will damage other amps that have tube fuses I called the importer. I asked the question as a customer would. "My amplifier specifies high breaking ceramic fuses, will your fuses work". He said "since they are ceramic they will work just fine". I can assume he still naively tells people that all ceramic fuses are high breaking, including his.
Then I contacted and exchanged several emails with the MAKER OF THE FUSE. He though they were fine for tube fuses. Now tell me who am I or any user supposed to ask?
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..................
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Start a collection thread for Tyson's ABX box and have vendors start sending him stuff.
I might be hesitant because I suspect he's one of those iso-ward room ultra precision studio pan-pot artificial constructs types and I'm more in the Toole/Olive/Fincham/Linkwitz school. Plus I have my own preferences stated as such. :wink:
But it would be a start.
cheers,
AJ
Uhm, say what?
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It's just seems like you were given the wrong info and this is a case of misapplication rather than the fuse not working properly. It's possible you talked to someone who works for the maker of the fuses and they didn't have a clue and gave you bad advice. It happens all the time. You're pretty quick to condemn them, as someone who wants to be extremely stringent and scientific about so many "audiophile" things. This is somebody's business and livelihood as well, and you are bashing them publically without enough evidence to warrant it imo. Your single incident does not make it a fact that the fuses won't operate correctly when used appropriately.
Look, I'm just going to stay away because arguing about these things is an exercise in futility in most cases. IME, almost everything you do to a system or room is audible... but only large, obvious changes are worth worrying about. Everyone needs to choose for themselves how particular they are going to be about the details.
And the facts about audibility of many things are unknown. Neither side is really grasping the whole truth imo. I think it's ok to leave some things as simply "I don't know" rather than forming strong opinions either way.
There's still lots of folks out there that think all amplifiers sound exactly the same and you are deluding yourself about the superiority of any particular topology.
I asked the person who developed them and sells them. Is there a more informed person I should ask?
I have stated my evidence. I see how the fuses operate. I have tested them. I understand fusing. I have explained in the simplest terms what happens when a fuse blows in a high breaking situation. What more evidence do I need?
I have seen no warning from the maker or distributor that these fuses are not suitable for tube protection. I have seen several instances that suggest using them in inappropriate applications by reviewers who have not tested them or perhaps even asked if they are appropriate.
It appears you believe that it is perfectly OK for someone to misrepresent and make specious claims for a product as a means of a livelihood.
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Uhm, say what?
Yea, I am confused by this also. Perhaps AJ can clarify his statement. It sounds rather insulting to me.
I am often confused by AJs comments as you might note in our exchanges.
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Yea, I am confused by this also. Perhaps AJ can clarify his statement. It sounds rather insulting to me.
I am often confused by AJs comments as you might note in our exchanges.
You are not alone. :lol: There seems to be some sort of alternate universe there.
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Hi Fast Fred,
Congratulations on a fast topic. Over 600 views in one day and so many responses is notable. Here is my experience.
I had several email exchanges with the maker of Tuning Fuses and got the same Red Herring responses. My first experience with his product was in an RM-9 MKII that came to me for service with eight tuning fuses (one for each tube) in place of my specified HIGH BREAKING ceramic fuses. The tuning fuse's inability to do their job properly had blown the wirewound cathode resistor, which I had never seen before. I study every failure and this one caught my attention because it takes a lot of energy to blow that resistor. Its wire is much stouter and of a very high melting material, any fuse should go first.
Of course I opened up the fuse and looked at its construction. It was made in such a way as to be the worst possible fuse for that application. I called the distributor here and asked is it was a high breaking fuse and suitable for a tube fuse. He didn't know what that was. I said well the fuse specified for my amp is high breaking and ceramic. He said that because his fuse was ceramic also it must be OK. This is very naive. He doesn't know and perhaps the maker doesn't know that a high breaking fuse is made a different way, though from the outside it looks the same.
These fuses are totally inappropriate for any high voltage DC application such as a tube fuse in an amplifier. What also amazed me is that these fuses cost more than most tubes. I felt sorry for the owner who had been led down this path by irresponsible magazines like Positive Feedback. Not only did this fuse not protect his tube but it did not protect his amplifier.
The maker of these fuses, like many makers of tweaks will certainly get no admiration from me. What gets me is why so many people want to play with tweaks rather than make real improvements in their system like bi-amping, adding a good subwoofer and simplifying the signal path.
Bingo! This is an excellent response to the issue, which to me, is nothing more than a snake oil rabbit hole. I've seen old fuses degrade a signal by acting like a resistor due to age/corrosion factors, but that is about it. The only way to improve sound from an amp is to modify the design to address any shortfalls, or change out old worn components.
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Uhm, say what?
Fast Fred is yearning for serious reviews of components. Franks ABX box was suggested as a useful tool to get meaningful results, you seemed to agree and mentioned publishing results. You were saying you were amazed about lack of room treatments at shows.
I suggested to Fred (somewhat jokingly) to start a collection thread to purchase an ABX box for you to do these reviews (since it would be a service to the AC community), including reviews of room treatment products. The only blind testing of room treatments I'm aware of, is by Toole, which showed quite the opposite of what many believe in.
Feel free to converse directly with him (Toole) to avoid any hearsay and misinterpretation. Olive as well.
I eschew their use almost entirely, hence my comments about sending my speakers for review, since they are designed specifically to avoid so called room treatments. But I note that is based on my preferences for sound...and why. I don't find ultra-precision studio constructs as "realism", because I attend mostly live classical/jazz etc. YMMV.
cheers,
AJ
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I am often confused by AJs comments as you might note in our exchanges.
Sorry 'bout that. I do interweave (attempted) sarcastic humor on occasion, into deadly serious issues, like "audiophile fuses", which perhaps leads to some haziness. My apologies. It also took about three posts on this topic before I realized I was in your Circle! :wink:
cheers,
AJ
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Show some respect and gratitude, please. Roger Modjeski is one of several dozen design engineers who has demonstrated his bona fides over a long and illustrious career in our industry. The fact that he is here providing us with highly credible input and analysis, seemingly out of the goodness of his heart, is something we should be proud to receive. Some of us, however, are selfishly challenging his efforts in an effort to elevate ourselves at the expense of lowering the overall development of this topic. How does it benefit the rank and file among us, if you succeed in prompting him to throw up his hands in frustration and withdraw his participation? This is his paid for Circle, and he could just edit you out of it. He doesn't do that, and I think that speaks positively to his fairness and open-mindedness.
Roger - I'll PM you my address so you can send that amp.
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Why don't you want to make an effort to prove a negative (statement you've made?)
Logic is part of the whole EE/Physics thing.
Tell you what : I'm going to get one of these fuse things and decide for myself - albeit one with a money back guarantee, then there's really no financial risk.
That seems like the best recourse of someone who believes in the plausibility of such things. It will say nothing about the efficacy of the DUT itself, but it will certainly ascertain the response of your perceptions to it, which is all that matters. As I've been saying all along.
If it makes you enjoy your system more, by all means do so. The only concern being, as Roger brought up, it's functionality as an actual fuse!
cheers,
AJ
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It appears you believe that it is perfectly OK for someone to misrepresent and make specious claims for a product as a means of a livelihood.
That's the way I see it too. In the "high end" today, no claim is too absurd and if you point that out, you are attacked as a heretic, close minded, deaf, etc. trying to rob someones hungry kids of their fathers living, selling placebos.
I have over time however, due to direct exposure, changed my belief that these are all charlatans. Some obviously are, but many are just believers themselves. Hard to tell the difference, I know. :wink:
In the end, they are just serving the market. Supply and demand.
cheers,
AJ
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Logic is part of the whole EE/Physics thing.
That seems like the best recourse of someone who believes in the plausibility of such things. It will say nothing about the efficacy of the DUT itself, but it will certainly ascertain the response of your perceptions to it, which is all that matters. As I've been saying all along.
If it makes you enjoy your system more, by all means do so. The only concern being, as Roger brought up, it's functionality as an actual fuse!
cheers,
AJ
I hope the whole EE/Physics logic is not just to make objective claims without making any effort to actually substantiate them and instead just appeal to authority of it in itself. That sounds more like a faith-based religious argument than a reason-based scientific one.
I can see now it's fruitless to ask you despite repeated attempts to provide any details of your negative claim with respect to fuses & sound quality. Scientific method does allow for negative hypotheses and results, even if they are usually qualified and not meant to apply to all & every circumstance. Don't need to be an EE or physicist to know that. If its just that you don't feel like making more specific arguments, it would be more honest to just come out and say that.
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....................
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Um, it's to do with the design of the circuit and where the fuse appears in it. Typically, most of the power supply is "after" the fuse and the fuse is assumed to be insignificant in any calculation of the circuit performance. (In response to jarcher)
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Quoted from JohnR:
it's to do with the design of the circuit and where the fuse appears in it.
Exactly!
A fuse, like every thing that is electrical has Inductance, Resistance and Capacitance. Where the fuse is located within the circuit is what is important.
HsvHeelFan
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A fuse, like every thing that is electrical has Inductance, Resistance and Capacitance. Where the fuse is located within the circuit is what is important.
The major legitimate fuse manufacturers have extensive spec sheets that include DC cold resistance, voltage drop, current-time charts, etc., but no Inductance or Capacitance measurements likely because they would be so tiny as to be insignificant.
That seems to make sense considering that we're talking about a one inch long single conductor wire.
Steve
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Um, it's to do with the design of the circuit and where the fuse appears in it. Typically, most of the power supply is "after" the fuse and the fuse is assumed to be insignificant in any calculation of the circuit performance. (In response to jarcher)
Agreed. But the thing is, a power supply doesn't work within its own bubble and thus is not impervious to outside influences. And a side note, keep in mind that the power supply was designed using someone's test bench outlet / power. Power delivery from the wall can vary from house to house, from city to city etc. I believe this is why it is often recommended that the bias (in tube amps) be set when an amp is received by the customer, to account for this. Since the stability of the power supply affects everything else down the line, I'm not so certain that things before the power supply (fuses, power cables, line conditioners, and all the electricity back to the Hoover Dam) can't influence a machine's performance......even if it is very subtle. Question: If one uses a much thicker and/or longer power cable than the standard 14 gauge 5 FT cable supplied with many components these days, wouldn't the thicker/longer power cord act a bit like a larger capacitor (than the standard cable)? Wouldn't this possibly help consistent power delivery to the machine's power supply? Excuse my ignorance, if this seems like a stupid question. Safety issues aside, if a fancy fuse (prior to the power supply) uses a more conductive filament than a standard fuse, couldn't it possibly help the machine's power supply operate at a slightly more optimal level. Again, I'm just posing questions that seem logical from my limited knowledge base.
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Fast Fred is yearning for serious reviews of components. Franks ABX box was suggested as a useful tool to get meaningful results, you seemed to agree and mentioned publishing results. You were saying you were amazed about lack of room treatments at shows.
I suggested to Fred (somewhat jokingly) to start a collection thread to purchase an ABX box for you to do these reviews (since it would be a service to the AC community), including reviews of room treatment products. The only blind testing of room treatments I'm aware of, is by Toole, which showed quite the opposite of what many believe in.
Feel free to converse directly with him (Toole) to avoid any hearsay and misinterpretation. Olive as well.
I eschew their use almost entirely, hence my comments about sending my speakers for review, since they are designed specifically to avoid so called room treatments. But I note that is based on my preferences for sound...and why. I don't find ultra-precision studio constructs as "realism", because I attend mostly live classical/jazz etc. YMMV.
cheers,
AJ
All my exposure to gear has always been sighted, and it would be interesting to try it blind, that was all I was trying to convey. I also do blind comparisons with one of my other hobbies on occasion, Scotch tasting, and the results are always interesting.
As for room treatments, year after year the best sounding rooms at RMAF have some type of treatment. Often the speakers are open baffle and make at least an attempt at controlled directivity. Its not 100% consistent, but it is a strong trend.
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The problem with a fuse is that it behaves as a non-linear resistor whose resistance varies as a function current induced temperature changes.
Scotty
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It's very difficult for me to take anyone here seriously that hasn't been willing to try one. I know the buy in for trial sucks, and that's why we read reviews. Now, who you trust for reviews is your choice.
I'm not saying fuses do anything, but I can tell you I'm not going to use an Ace hardware one in any of my conditioners. Basically because of what Scotty has said. Besides that, I can also use something that's not a fuse. However if the "audiophile" grade ones are a cheaper, easier, alternative to certain types of breakers/interrupters/etc, it might be the best option.
Roger, you yourself have mentioned that any resistance in the AC path is a bad idea. I agree with you there to a point of minimal resistance, but I have to point out the irony of a rejection of high end fuses for certain applications, given the nature that Scotty has brought into the topic.
Anyway, I'll take the people that have tried them as a better opinion for now.
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The problem with a fuse is that it behaves as a non-linear resistor whose resistance varies as a function current induced temperature changes.
Scotty
Where does this "problem" show up in the electrical output of the DUT?
Cheers,
AJ
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Why not just bypass the fuse entirely, if its so bad? Oh wait - hahahahahaha
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Hah hah!
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Why not just bypass the fuse entirely, if its so bad? Oh wait - hahahahahaha
I have known some that has used a solid copper bar. Bet that voids the warranty.
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Question: If one uses a much thicker and/or longer power cable than the standard 14 gauge 5 FT cable supplied with many components these days, wouldn't the thicker/longer power cord act a bit like a larger capacitor (than the standard cable)? Wouldn't this possibly help consistent power delivery to the machine's power supply? Excuse my ignorance, if this seems like a stupid question. Safety issues aside, if a fancy fuse (prior to the power supply) uses a more conductive filament than a standard fuse, couldn't it possibly help the machine's power supply operate at a slightly more optimal level. Again, I'm just posing questions that seem logical from my limited knowledge base.
This is the kind of question that moves us forward. It has been said, there are no bad questions, only bad answers.
The capacitance of a power cord cannot help provide consistent power as it does not work like the capacitor in a power supply that is storing DC. Even if it could it is very small by comparison.
The difference in conductance of the premium fuse is vanishingly small compared to the other resistances in the circuit. I would be more concerned with the fuse holder's resistance. I ran the numbers in the Audiogon forum post. I found the effect of the fuse to be more than 100 dB down. Perhaps that is not enough for some.
The main resistance in any device is in the primary and secondary of the transformer. In a CD player this might be 20 ohms. In a power amp 5 ohms, in a really big power amp 2 ohms. I have measured some primaries below 1 ohm but those are in really big amps. The effect of the fuses resistance, change in resistance, inductance must be considered in light of what it is powering. Its a pit like pissing in the ocean. Yes you add to the volume of water.. but not much. When analyzed many technical claims fall into that category.
If we are concerned about reducing resistance we should look to other things that matter more. A dedicated line back to your main panel can help. Get the electrician to use the heaviest gauge wire within reason. While he is at it run two circuits. One for the power amp and one for everything else. Ask him to find the lowest resistance breaker he can. Run it in conduit (flexible or rigid) which will provide shielding from other things happening in you home.
If resistance is your concern the improvement will be equivalent to swapping out dozens of fuses. A even larger improvement will be that as the power amp draws more current with the music it will not be moving the voltage on the socket that powers your front end and preamp from the other line. Even better, have the electrician put the power amp run and the front end run on different phases.
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Glad to put my ignorance to use for the betterment of all. :lol:
Thanks for the detailed answer, Roger.
One more question : As there are many of us in this hobby who can't rewire their rental homes, would a power regenerator be a sensible purchase? I guess this would at least provide power isolation from the rest of the home(s) wiring, even though power delivery to the regenerator itself wouldn't be improved (per your suggestion earlier involving dedicated lines).
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Where does this "problem" show up in the electrical output of the DUT?
Cheers,
AJ
You beat me to it! :green:
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I don't understand corner traps at all. At the corner there is a node in a standing wave where there is virtually no air motion to be trapped.
I think the people who design room treatments don't know much about sound waves, which is unfortunate.
Roger, I thought I'd take the opportunity to include a link to a slightly lengthy article addressing your doubts about corner traps. While it is true there is little molecular motion at a room's node junction/wall surface, there is corresponding pressure buildup that can be dealt with through frictional membrane trapping. The standard low tech panel of compressed fiberglass jammed in a corner isn't able to affect frequencies much lower than 300 hz., but in combination with a tuned membrane, one can start affecting double digit frequiencies with a corner trap.
http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/taming_the_big_wave/P1/
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This reply has not so much to do with audio fuses (or any other for that matter), but it does seem to be related to Don Quixote. In the event it is not obvious, the tone of this particular thread caught my attention.
The future of high end audio dies on a daily basis, when individuals simply choose to listen.
Investigate your room, buy a good chair (or not) and enjoy the music.
I cannot speak for others, but it does become very apparent when one cannot enjoy that singular pleasure.
With respect to "tweaks" in general, I would not be without Audio Points by Star Sound (0 - zero affiliation) and a good chair.
A good evening to all.
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This reply has not so much to do with audio fuses (or any other for that matter), but it does seem to be related to Don Quixote. In the event it is not obvious, the tone of this particular thread caught my attention.
The future of high end audio dies on a daily basis, when individuals simply choose to listen.
Investigate your room, buy a good chair (or not) and enjoy the music.
I cannot speak for others, but it does become very apparent when one cannot enjoy that singular pleasure.
With respect to "tweaks" in general, I would not be without Audio Points by Star Sound (0 - zero affiliation) and a good chair.
A good evening to all.
.............................You Are correct sometimes I do get up on my high horse. It’s because when I scan the audiophile press in general, editors & reviewers seem to be lamenting the immenant death of the hi/end.They then publish ridiculous reviews like tuning fuses, & the ones I’ve included below. Essentially contributing to their own demise.
As I said in the original post if a neophyte audiophile was approached with some of the mumbo jumbo I’ve heard over the years he would probably head for the nearest Bose Boutique…………
One of my motives in starting the thread is my disappointment at being unable to find an honest review magazine. (another reason for the death of the hi/end) I know this when I’m listening to music I’m much more serene. I'm looking for a review journal where there are more music reviews, more reviews of the basics, turntables, amps, pre/amps, speakers, & less reviews of voodoo, & pseudoscience. Not one person who has responded to this thread has listed their favourite audio magazine, which I was hoping would happen. There must be one reputable journal out there.
I too have a few pet tweaks (for want of a better word) which I think enhance the sound of my system. I believe that wire can influence the sound of a system as well. For better or worse that's up to you. Where I draw the line and feel obligated to speak up. Is when I encounter cable products which cost more than an amp or pre/amp & products such as tuning fuses, & another example I find to be particularly offensive is manufactured by a German company (Stein Music) which cites quantum physics in it's design. The reviewer claimed that it changes the compliance of the air in the room. Here are some reviews of products, from that company, reviewed in PFO since 2012. Please note my complaint is with the reviewer & the review, not necessarily the product.
( http://positive-feedback.com/Issue61/steinmusic.htm )
and.
( http://positive-feedback.com/Issue59/stein_music_harmonizer.htm )
ps. go to a parallel universe ( Debunking Tuning Fuses et al ). a new topic on this site.
Roger & Ben ( Music Reference.com ) have made some interesting points!
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Fred,
Thanks for the links to the most ridiculous reviews I have read to date. I note that they are both by the same reviewer. Positive Feedback must get their reviewers right out of THE ASYLUM. These guys make no sense at all.
I agree that magazines like PF and their reviewers do significant harm to the industry. As I have mentioned previously, Stereophile is doing the best job by including good measurements. However some of their reviewers do believe in silly things and have said great things about bad amplifiers.
I would be happy to be involved on the technical end of a magazine that brought some sanity to the industry while making a complete lampoon of the silliness.
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There is one magazine. Linear Audio Magazine.
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Fred,
Thanks for the links to the most ridiculous reviews I have read to date. I note that they are both by the same reviewer. Positive Feedback must get their reviewers right out of THE ASYLUM. These guys make no sense at all.
I agree that magazines like PF and their reviewers do significant harm to the industry. As I have mentioned previously, Stereophile is doing the best job by including good measurements. However some of their reviewers do believe in silly things and have said great things about bad amplifiers.
I would be happy to be involved on the technical end of a magazine that brought some sanity to the industry while making a complete lampoon of the silliness.
I know it may seem to some that I have it in for PFO. I used to think Positive Feedback ( print version ) along with Listener were 2 of the best audio review journals
out there. I know they can do better the evidence is in print. It's just that all this daft shite seems to be showing up on PFO. I will keep on the lookout for more articles like this.
There is one magazine. Linear Audio Magazine.
Yes Linear Audio is a good magazine Jan Didden is the driving force behind this both print & online technical Journal. I have 5 print issues. The approach is technical oriented, lots of diy & schematic info, Nelson Pass contributes, there are reprints of articles by the likes of Peter Baxandal, Richard Burwen. For a non technical person like myself they can be a dry read. I’m sure Roger & Ben would be interested in this magazine, there are lots of good articles.
( http://www.linearaudio.net )
Roger mentioned the work of Sterophile magazine’s technical editor John Atkinson as being reliable & reputable. I like Art Dudley, from his listener magazine days. To be honest I prefer the small journal format of the old TAS, Sterophile, and listener.
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I discovered Linear Audio magazine a few months ago and contacted the editor. It appears to be good, I wonder what his circulation is. From the samples I see online it appears to be at a higher technical level than the general reader would understand.
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I discovered Linear Audio magazine a few months ago and contacted the editor. It appears to be good, I wonder what his circulation is. From the samples I see online it appears to be at a higher technical level than the general reader would understand.
The baby of jan didden,well yeah ee grade magazine,who reads magazines nowadays there is the
internet and forums,people just get creative.. :green:
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A couple of items:
fastfred - No sense of the high horse from me.
kevin360 - Love the dog, ours passed on a bit more than a year ago.
Guy 13 - I should have been wearing the earmuffs for the last 30+ years.
What I have learned - I will be a Jr. member for a very long time.
What I know - A good chair and a pint will sometime trump the music, but just sometime.
A good evening to all.
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I read about Jan Didden & Linear Audio for the first time on 6moons.com, not a bad magazine.
Oh, the sweet irony...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/net/net.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/net/net.html)
It's very difficult for me to take anyone here seriously that hasn't been willing to try one.
As someone who spent a couple of decades earning his living by repairing equipment which had gone awry, I tip my hat to my sacrificial little friend - the fuse. I can't tell you how many times a well chosen fuse has limited the collateral damage of a destabilized circuit. A fuse must perform two tasks. The HiFi Tuning Fuse appears to concentrate all of its efforts on one of them, to the detriment of the other. Do you not find it at all disturbing that there is absolutely no published data regarding their 'fail' characteristics?
I don't have to strap paper wings to my arms and defenestrate myself from the 32nd floor to know that such wings will not enable me to fly. To imply that one cannot reason away certain ideas as folly is an insult to the human capacity to rationalize.
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kevin360 - Love the dog, ours passed on a bit more than a year ago.
He (Pico) passed 13 months ago (at 13 years) - still miss him dearly. He was unique.
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Oh, the sweet irony...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/net/net.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/net/net.html)
In my defence, ( http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/musicreference/rm10.html ) I can't be everywhere, the fact still remains tuning
fuses are a bogus product. PFO isn't the only guilty party publishing reviews like this. I already knew that. Is that your point?
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A couple of items:
fastfred - No sense of the high horse from me.
A good evening to all.
Don Quixote rode a high horse & tilted at windmills, you got me, guilty as charged!!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102165)
cheers
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I had done some tests some time ago about fastblow fuses, these fuses opened at 150% of the rated current,there were consistency and i was satisfy with the results... :green:
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Great read guys, thanks to all the contributors :thumb:
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Oh, the sweet irony...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/net/net.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/net/net.html)
As someone who spent a couple of decades earning his living by repairing equipment which had gone awry, I tip my hat to my sacrificial little friend - the fuse. I can't tell you how many times a well chosen fuse has limited the collateral damage of a destabilized circuit. A fuse must perform two tasks. The HiFi Tuning Fuse appears to concentrate all of its efforts on one of them, to the detriment of the other. Do you not find it at all disturbing that there is absolutely no published data regarding their 'fail' characteristics?
I don't have to strap paper wings to my arms and defenestrate myself from the 32nd floor to know that such wings will not enable me to fly. To imply that one cannot reason away certain ideas as folly is an insult to the human capacity to rationalize.
Thanks for you input from a technicians point of view. Proper fusing of equipment is essential to long life and freedom from catastrophic failures. My RM-9 MKII and SE have 10 fuses, one for each tube and two in the power supply. My RM-200 has 6 fuses, one for each tube and two in the power supply. My RM-10 has 3 fuses, one for each pair and one in the power supply. They are in the circuit so as not to affect the sound in any way. Of course people who don't understand circuits don't appear to understand this.
That article in 6 moons starts off great, he makes all the right arguments but then folds, and is blown over by the tuning fuse. As if not enough he is also dazzled by the other products of the charlatan at HI FI TUNING.
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It would seem obvious/logical to take a handful of these fuses and subject them to some objective destructive testing to see how they perform in their primary job. As anyone done this yet? Maybe I've missed it?
Dave.
I have done the tests and published my results as to their effectiveness as tube fuses. They fail miserably in that function though the maker gives no warning and one PF reviewer in particular recommended them for just that function. I have explained all this in detail and described exactly what happens in this thread. Perhaps you should review my posts.
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Another thing to do is email Positive Feedback, and let them know what you think of their reviewer(s) who make(s) subjective claims for the improved sound magic fuses afford their system(s). It calls into question their very credibility, on any and all subjects and products. Of course, if the Editor is one of those who has made the claim, it will be falling on, heh, deaf ears.
Last night I sent emails to the editor in chief, 2 senior editors, 4 technical editors and the reviewer who recommended the fuses for use as tube fuses in a CJ amplifier. I have one reply so far.
I have started a new thread to report the results of these queries.
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Last week NPR broadcast a story that Professional Scientists had intentionally and knowingly committed the fraud of "Peer Reviewing" (with fraudulent ID) their own science papers. Remember the professional scientists/hired tobacco guns who swore under oath nicotine is non-addictive while their employer was simultaneously "tweaking" the dose to maintain addictive qualities? Such scientific frauds seem to dwarf any confirmed audio fraud I can think of off the top of my head.
Not saying 2 wrongs make a right, just some perspective compared to a taxpayer licensed industry that killed millions.
Circa mid-late 90s some Cabinet guy or just below that level publicly announced cigarettes are a drug delivery system and must be labeled a dangerous controlled substance, IOW, no more public sale except to persons with license or Rx or some such. That guy quickly disappeared from the public scene. The US govt makes millions off nicotine addiction. Yes, it's probably a net loss with medical care, but it still is income on a balance sheet somewhere.
Why not just bypass the fuse entirely, if its so bad? Oh wait - hahahahahaha
You mean with a small value capacitor, as someone I knew was fond of doing, or just short the contacts?
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Last week NPR broadcast a story that Professional Scientists had intentionally and knowingly committed the fraud of "Peer Reviewing" (with fraudulent ID) their own science papers. Remember the professional scientists/hired tobacco guns who swore under oath nicotine is non-addictive while their employer was simultaneously "tweaking" the dose to maintain addictive qualities? Such scientific frauds seem to dwarf any confirmed audio fraud I can think of off the top of my head.
Not saying 2 wrongs make a right, just some perspective compared to a taxpayer licensed industry that killed millions.
Circa mid-late 90s some Cabinet guy or just below that level publicly announced cigarettes are a drug delivery system and must be labeled a dangerous controlled substance, IOW, no more public sale except to persons with license or Rx or some such. That guy quickly disappeared from the public scene. The US govt makes millions off nicotine addiction. Yes, it's probably a net loss with medical care, but it still is income on a balance sheet somewhere.
You mean with a small value capacitor, as someone I knew was fond of doing, or just short the contacts?
A capacitor would have to be very large to bypass the low resistance of the fuse and reduce low frequency heating. I believe Tyson suggests eliminating the fuse permanently.
For an experiment, as long as your amplifier does not blow up on a regular basis, one could short out the fuse with a heavy, short clip lead and note the difference if any. It is unlikely your amplifier will fail at that moment. It does not bother the amp in any way to short out the fuse temporarily. Be careful not to hit ground with the clip while playing music. Only do this if you know what you are doing.
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I really have to agree w/ James that in perspective the sins of many other industries, including the scientific, seems more serious than a fuse which may or may not fail to prevent catastrophic failure to a piece of entertainment gear. There's a lot we put up with in the "boutique" high end audio world in the experimental quest for better sound - subjective or otherwise. The "hi-fi" fuse industry will stand or fall on it's own merits in the fullness of time. We're not talking about a large industry anyway, the audiophile market that is.
With regard to tobacco, promoting that industry is probably in the governments benefit not only because of tobacco tax revenue, but because tobacco smokers tend to die earlier and more quickly, reducing social security and other government benefits paid out down the road. Assuming of course there's any money left to pay out SS and other benefits in the future. But that another story and I'll stop before straying even further off topic.
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Bose's comment on audio starting at 43:30ish seems pertinent here.
"Because most of what you know is pure unadulterated folklore that's in these hifi magazines."
http://teachingexcellence.mit.edu/inspiring-teachers/amar-bose-6-312-lecture-01-introduction
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Bose's comment on audio starting at 43:30ish seems pertinent here.
"Because most of what you know is pure unadulterated folklore that's in these hifi magazines."
http://teachingexcellence.mit.edu/inspiring-teachers/amar-bose-6-312-lecture-01-introduction
Need I say that I second that motion. :)He said several interesting thing on that subject. Also note that was 1995. I wonder what he would say now?
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I wish he had cited some examples. Each of us knows what would top our own list, but what about his? I'd guess interconnects and speaker wire, an easy, popular, and predictable target of old-school engineers; I doubt he would even be aware of audiophile power cords, which are more questionable I think almost all here would agree, let alone Tuning Fuses. More unpredictable would be his view of anything a guy like, say, Julian Hirsch, was mistaken about. Frank Van Alstine took the trouble of demonstrating to Hirsch a couple of tests that that he, Hirsch, could put an amp through that would reveal a design problem in that amp under certain circumstances. Hirsch dismissed Frank's incontrovertibly valid test, using the excuse that the test was not part of the already established testing program for not adopting Frank's revealing test. It is that attitude towards what is already known versus what isn't, and the attitude that people like he are certain there simply isn't anything to be known that isn't already, that cast doubt upon the relevance and validity of technical measurements amongst seekers of better sound from home Hi-Fi. Products like the Tuning Fuses prove that the willingness to accept the possibility of ANYTHING corrupting good sound can be taken too far. Which is worse? Hirsch Labs was very influential in product development and market calculations by the mass-market companies, and his antiquated test limitations may have held back the advancement of Hi-Fi for decades. Meanwhile, the small, underground, and it could be argued, unqualified High End (ugh) designers went about at least trying to achieve better sound. Again, which is worse? I found the smugness of guys like Hirsch irritating in the extreme, and consider it very unfortunate they were so influential. How about Dr. Bose? Did he not just impede Hi-Fi progress, but actually lead it down an ill-conceived, even technically "incorrect" path? I'm just askin'!
What I find most encouraging is that all of this did nothing to stop advances in the recording end of the chain by guys like Roger's client in the Santa Barbara area, the great purist recording engineer Kavichandran Alexander. We have music recorded to a quality level yet to be able to be fully reproduced. Room for improvement!
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....What I find most encouraging is that all of this did nothing to stop advances in the recording end of the chain by guys like Roger's client in the Santa Barbara area, the great purist recording engineer Kavichandran Alexander. We have music recorded to a quality level yet to be able to be fully reproduced. Room for improvement!
Talking to local musicians in the local Winnipeg music scene, I notice quite a few guitarists are using audio quest cables & claiming great benefits to their personal sound. So it looks like the insanity has leaked over to professional audio. ( or has it? ) check this website.
( http://www.alessandro-products.com/main.html )
here’s another page ( http://www.alessandro-products.com/cables-inst.html )
or this one ( http://www.alessandro-products.com/main.php?p=cables-mic ).
There is an audioquest link on this website which no longer works. Maybe a sign that musicians are harder to fool?
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Equating finding differences between the sound of different wires with believing in the superiority of Tuning Fuses is painting with too broad a brush, IMO. Professional recording engineers have no time to waste on imaginary differences, and some of the best have in fact installed various brands of Audiophile cables in their businesses. And please, no "Sure, they have to, to keep their Audiophile credibility". Just ask Doug Sax. He was mastering through horn-loaded loudspeakers in the 70's, when those had about as much Audiophile credibility as Bose speakers. Guess what kind of wire he has running throughout his studio?
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Equating finding differences between the sound of different wires with believing in the superiority of Tuning Fuses is painting with too broad a brush, IMO. Professional recording engineers have no time to waste on imaginary differences, and some of the best have in fact installed various brands of Audiophile cables in their businesses. And please, no "Sure, they have to, to keep their Audiophile credibility". Just ask Doug Sax. He was mastering through horn-loaded loudspeakers in the 70's, when those had about as much Audiophile credibility as Bose speakers. Guess what kind of wire he has running throughout his studio?
Most of the recording studios today uses the cheap Monster Cables.
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Equating finding differences between the sound of different wires with believing in the superiority of Tuning Fuses is painting with too broad a brush, IMO. Professional recording engineers have no time to waste on imaginary differences, and some of the best have in fact installed various brands of Audiophile cables in their businesses. And please, no "Sure, they have to, to keep their Audiophile credibility". Just ask Doug Sax. He was mastering through horn-loaded loudspeakers in the 70's, when those had about as much Audiophile credibility as Bose speakers. Guess what kind of wire he has running throughout his studio?
Key phrase: "some of the best", Doug Sax's Mastering Lab being one of the absolute best. Not a recording studio per se, but related.
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Key phrase: "some of the best", Doug Sax's Mastering Lab being one of the absolute best. Not a recording studio per se, but related.
Mogami or Canare?
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Mogami or Canare?
No, they use Shunyata Research.
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No, they use Shunyata Research.
Am I misreading below? It appears that Doug is using Shunyata selectively and not for all wiring in the studio.
http://shunyata.com/index.php/reviews-all/professional-endorsements?start=3
Without knowing the inside scoop, it's difficult to conclude why someone is using a particular product. Is it because they really think it's a great product or they are being paid to use the product, or there is some business relationship between the parties.
Or perhaps they are simply as nutty as some of us out here who think that they can hear a difference with cables and such.
Or is it that we actually can hear a difference but only on poorly designed equipment which seems to be pervasive in high end audio?
Or is it that there is a difference but we have not be able to yet explain in more scientifically acceptable terms why?
Or is it that we need something to argue about so we can ignore the real reasons that two channel high end audio is dwindling?
Or is it some combination of all of the above plus more.
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I don't have an answer to all those questions (!), but I do know that Doug Sax is no fool, and takes his craft very seriously. When all the world was going one way, he was going his own. He has no need for free wire from any company, and does not choose the tools of his trade on that basis. He is known for the quality of his work, which is second to none---State of The Art. In fact, he advanced the state of the art in the 70's with his series of direct-to-disk LP's, still the most alive sounding recordings I've ever heard. He IS a little nutty, in the way that many gifted artists and engineers are. He is not going to risk his reputation by using pieces of gear that do not provide him with the most transparent view of the sound he is manipulating---he is THE mastering engineer in the world!
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I don't have an answer to all those questions (!), but I do know that Doug Sax is no fool, and takes his craft very seriously. When all the world was going one way, he was going his own. He has no need for free wire from any company, and does not choose the tools of his trade on that basis. He is known for the quality of his work, which is second to none---State of The Art. In fact, he advanced the state of the art in the 70's with his series of direct-to-disk LP's, still the most alive sounding recordings I've ever heard. He IS a little nutty, in the way that many gifted artists and engineers are. He is not going to risk his reputation by using pieces of gear that do not provide him with the most transparent view of the sound he is manipulating---he is THE mastering engineer in the world!
And you know this how?
Doc
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gearslutz.com had quite a thread (involving a few actual mastering engineers and a lot of wannabe's) on "audiophile" cables in the recording studios. More than a few recording studios (including many of the most highly regarded ones) had cables from Transparent, JPS, Shunyata, Audioquest and others. To be sure, Mogami and Canare were well represented as well.
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And you know this how?
Doc
Okay, I don't know it. Not only that, it's not true. Feel better? Do you even know of Doug Sax, his work ethos and standards, or even his work? Read any of his interviews? I already know the answer; If you did or had, you wouldn't ask. You can be as much of a skeptic or cynic as you like, it doesn't change the truth. If you really want the answer to your question, and are not being disingenuous, do your own homework, don't copy others' :roll:.
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Okay, I don't know it. Not only that, it's not true. Feel better? Do you even know of Doug Sax, his work ethos and standards, or even his work? Read any of his interviews? I already know the answer; If you did or had, you wouldn't ask. You can be as much of a skeptic or cynic as you like, it doesn't change the truth. If you really want the answer to your question, and are not being disingenuous, do your own homework, don't copy others':roll:.
Hi bdp 24
Are you saying that to make Devil Doc happy
or for him to get off your back
or you really think what you wrote?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Yes, I am trying to be funny.
Funny or not, it's the intention that count.
Guy13
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Hey Guy, how ya doin'?. I wasn't trying to be funny, but I was, of course, kidding. it's just a shame when the exhaustive, serious work of the likes of Doug Sax goes unappreciated by some guy who can't be bothered to do even a little research on his own, he just wanting an easy answer. A sign of the times, I suppose. And that's how I took the question---not calling for proof of my statement, but actually not acknowledging Doug's years of hard work to advance the art of mastering by not being familiar with Doug or his work. We have all benefitted from that work, and then this presumably lazy sod (I'm not British, but I do admire their attempt to maintain a high standard in the use of the English language) shows Doug no respect. Why I oughta..... It would be like someone here stating that Roger makes the finest transformers available in any power amplifier, and then some guy asking: "And you know this how?". The question needing to be asked, and of the dubious Doc, actually is "And you don't know this because?". On a related note, I just received an email from The Tweek Geeks. In that email was an announcement of the new power cord by Bybee. Price? $1500! Wonder if Doug Sax has one yet? :wink:
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I don't have an answer to all those questions (!), but I do know that Doug Sax is no fool, and takes his craft very seriously. When all the world was going one way, he was going his own. He has no need for free wire from any company, and does not choose the tools of his trade on that basis. He is known for the quality of his work, which is second to none---State of The Art. In fact, he advanced the state of the art in the 70's with his series of direct-to-disk LP's, still the most alive sounding recordings I've ever heard. He is a little nutty, in the way that many gifted artists and engineers are. He is not going to risk his reputation by using pieces of gear that do not provide him with the most transparent view of the sound he is manipulating---he is THE mastering engineer in the world!
And you know this how?
Doc
Okay, I don't know it. Not only that, it's not true. Feel better? Do you even know of Doug Sax, his work ethos and standards, or even his work? Read any of his interviews? I already know the answer; If you did or had, you wouldn't ask. You can be as much of a skeptic or cynic as you like, it doesn't change the truth. If you really want the answer to your question, and are not being disingenuous, do your own homework, don't copy others'.
I totally agree with bdp24 on the subject of Doug Sax. If he’s on the album credits you can expect the best sonics. The “Mastering Labs” if on a list of album credits, is usually an indicator of a quality recording, as well, even without Doug’s name. I believe that calling someone out to defend themselves on their description of & obvious admiration of, as well known a mastering engineer as Doug Sax is disinjenous at best, in my opinion obnoxious. (not to mention against forum rules)
In my opinion Doc you owe bdp24 an apology.
There were 2 other topics related to this one that were quarantined a few days ago. Roger asked that we exercise restraint when posting in the Music Reference Circle. It’s in light of this that I wrote the above.
……………………………………. fastfred
p.s. to Guy 13 it’s not funny!!
p.p.s. ….. I’m a junior member here on Music Reference Circle. How does one get to be a full member? The reason I ask this question is because of some observations I’ve made participating in other forums. Usually member status depends on how active a person is on the forums. In other words post count. Single word posts shouldn’t count. I joined Music Circle in Aug. 2012, with 52 posts to date.
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And you know this how?
Doc
Okay, I don't know it. Not only that, it's not true. Feel better? Do you even know of Doug Sax, his work ethos and standards, or even his work? Read any of his interviews? I already know the answer; If you did or had, you wouldn't ask. You can be as much of a skeptic or cynic as you like, it doesn't change the truth. If you really want the answer to your question, and are not being disingenuous, do your own homework, don't copy others'.
I totally agree with bdp24 on the subject of Doug Sax. If he’s on the album credits you can expect the best sonics. The “Mastering Labs” if on a list of album credits, is usually an indicator of a quality recording, as well, even without Doug’s name. I believe that calling someone out to defend themselves on their description of & obvious admiration of, as well known a mastering engineer as Doug Sax is disinjenous at best, in my opinion obnoxious. (not to mention against forum rules)
In my opinion Doc you owe bdp24 an apology.
There were 2 other topics related to this one that were quarantined a few days ago. Roger asked that we exercise restraint when posting in the Music Reference Circle. It’s in light of this that I wrote the above.
……………………………………. fastfred
p.s. to Guy 13 it’s not funny!!
p.p.s. ….. I’m a junior member here on Music Reference Circle. How does one get to be a full member? The reason I ask this question is because of some observations I’ve made participating in other forums. Usually member status depends on how active a person is on the forums. In other words post count. Single word posts shouldn’t count. I joined Music Circle in Aug. 2012, with 52 posts to date.
Hi fastfred.
There are many different types of humor, mine is special to me,
please get use to it, because there are lot more to come.
I agree with you, post with one word or just a smiley
should not count for one post, but you know what?
I don't make the rules here.
Maybe you should ask JonhR if he can change the rules ?
Guy 13
This post should count for one,
I have more than one word in it with a smiley. :lol:
3163 and counting...
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Hi fastfred.
There are many different types of humor, mine is special to me,
please get use to it, because there are lot more to come.
I agree with you, post with one word or just a smiley
should not count for one post, but you know what?
I don't make the rules here.
Maybe you should ask JonhR if he can change the rules ?
Guy 13
This post should count for one,
I have more than one word in it with a smiley. :lol:
3163 and counting...
I bet most of your posts are with more than one smiley.. :lol:
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I bet most of your posts are with more than one smiley.. :lol:
Hi Georgopoulos.
You should know about the number of smilies in put in my posts,
because you've been following my posts for a long time... :lol:
Guy 13
...and there we go again, one more post.
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I don't owe anyone an apology and let's leave it at that.
Doc
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Hello,
Guy is a funny guy. BUT the future of high end audio isnt that bright. I mean the future of audio isn't very nice too.
People who just down open a drink and listen to music with a proper sounding set are a dying race.
You spend time on the internet and in the background there is some music playing.
Most of the people in the audio business are looking for your wallet just like the people who did sell you these subprime mortgages.
Every time they will come up with new gadgets and invade internetsites like this with their hidden marketing strategies.
Of course there are exceptions . Will not name them nor will i name the ones that are on the wrong side.
Sincere greetings, Edward
p.s yes Seth is on the right side
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I've got an offer for you Roger.
I've got a Furutech 32mm 6.3A slo-blo I used in my Pass amp which takes a 5A fuse, and a Synergistic Research SR20 20mm 315mA slo-blo that I used in my DAC that takes a 250mA fuse. The inrush current on both of these solid state units blew their fuses with the same nominal rating, so I worked with both manufacturers to replace them with the next higher rating. I use them in the AC line input.
You're welcome to try them out and let me know if you hear any differences. I have found distinct characteristics with each brand fuse, but I'll let you be the judge. Note that I hold no opinions about whether they should have any sonic impacts or not from an electrical or circuit design perspective, I'd be speaking out of school if I did. However, I know from empirical experience that they do.
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Here is the bottom line: Tuning fuses are "JUNK SCIENCE", period. There is absolutely zero basis from an engineering perspective to promote these products. The claims regarding improved performance are somewhere between disingenuous and out nonsense from an engineering perspective.
Political correctness does not apply with this subject. Any item that has the potential to damage equipment and provides no true improvement does not deserve respect. Audiophiles who push this junk science are doing themselves and the community as a whole a disservice.
Roger pointed out earlier that an isolation transformer is an example of the type of item that could provide a measurable improvement.
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Here is the bottom line: Tuning fuses are "JUNK SCIENCE", period. There is absolutely zero basis from an engineering perspective to promote these products. The claims regarding improved performance are somewhere between disingenuous and out and out nonsense from an engineering perspective.
Political correctness does not apply with this subject. Any item that has the potential to damage equipment and provides no true improvement does not deserve respect. Audiophiles who push this junk science are doing themselves and the community as a whole a disservice.
Roger pointed out earlier that an isolation transformer is an example of the type of item that could provide a measurable improvement.
Well said.
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Here is the bottom line: Tuning fuses are "JUNK SCIENCE", period. There is absolutely zero basis from an engineering perspective to promote these products. The claims regarding improved performance are somewhere between disingenuous and out nonsense from an engineering perspective.
Political correctness does not apply with this subject. Any item that has the potential to damage equipment and provides no true improvement does not deserve respect. Audiophiles who push this junk science are doing themselves and the community as a whole a disservice.
Roger pointed out earlier that an isolation transformer is an example of the type of item that could provide a measurable improvement.
Again, well said !
Guy 13
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Most of the people in the audio business are looking for your wallet just like the people who did sell you these subprime mortgages.
Every time they will come up with new gadgets and invade internetsites like this with their hidden marketing strategies.
Of course there are exceptions . Will not name them nor will i name the ones that are on the wrong side.
Oh come on. This kind of post gets smeared onto this forum WAY too often. Drive-by,anonymous slander ( of course, never naming any names ) of "most of the people in the audio business " who are out to fleece the poor moneyed dummies who seem to be too stupid to make their own value judgments. Congratulations though on lowering the bar still further by drawing a parallel between the audio industry and the rogue elements of the financial industry who have literally sent people out of their homes to live in their cars. This is epic hyperbole and is an insult to the many who have suffered terribly through this economy. This thread is about whether people should be spending a few bucks on a bloody tuning fuse for God's sake. Get a grip... and some perspective.
While we're at it, do you think there's any correlation between the "Good Guys" who are not " On The Wrong Side" and the guys who made whatever is on the
rack of the paranoiacs who post this kind of stuff? I'll put money on it. Cuz these posters are always labouring under the assumption that they are the cleverest monkeys in the cage, flinging their poo at the ones they feel are inferior.
Are there certain elements in this industry - and any industry - which need to be afforded some healthy skepticism ? Of course. But there are also a majority who, just like you and me, are just trying to make a living without holding secret meetings among themselves to plot new and ever more nefarious tactics to get at those audiophile wallets and empty them right out in return for a handful of nothing.
So go ahead, name some names...because maybe then Admin would put this shit-show thread where it belongs once and for all.
D.D.
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Diamond Dog - The pickpockets work the areas where there's money and where people are not expecting the vulnerability that the thieves introduce. Audiophiles represent just such a neighborhood with their demonstrated, indeed insistent, gullibility and their vain pursuit of status and ego gratification.
I'm not sure who's to blame in all of this but I am sure it is happening.
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Here is the bottom line: Tuning fuses are "JUNK SCIENCE", period. There is absolutely zero basis from an engineering perspective to promote these products. The claims regarding improved performance are somewhere between disingenuous and out nonsense from an engineering perspective.
I respectfully disagree. Please, recall Scotty's terse, but powerful comment:
The problem with a fuse is that it behaves as a non-linear resistor whose resistance varies as a function current induced temperature changes.
Scotty
That's a very succinct summary of the problem with fuses. In some cases, for them to offer protection, they are forced to operate into their thermally reactive region. In some cases, that can have a sonic impact. This is the kernel of truth lying beneath the hype.
In such cases, the solution is less likely an 'improved' fuse than it is an alternative device. There are other types of protection devices, some of which are resettable. In some cases, an acceptable solution is to discard the protection altogether – as with fuses which protect the drivers comprising one's speakers.
Think about the problem with fuses as similar to that with MOVs, except that the latter can fail disastrously when forced to operate in a continuous manner as a voltage clamp (a reason to avoid 130V MOVs).
Getting back to the fuses, I could not agree more with the criticisms of Tuning Fuses based upon their operation as protection devices. Extremism is rarely, if ever, accurate. It's also completely unnecessary.
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Diamond Dog - The pickpockets work the areas where there's money and where people are not expecting the vulnerability that the thieves introduce. Audiophiles represent just such a neighborhood with their demonstrated, indeed insistent, gullibility and their vain pursuit of status and ego gratification.
I'm not sure who's to blame in all of this but I am sure it is happening.
it would be awfully naive to not expect a fox to raid the hen house. On the other hand, it's not all bad news. Sure, there are charlatans, but most of their wares are innocuous enough. Such things can provide improvements via psychological means, which are no less real. The fuses which spawned this thread can not be classified as innocuous.
Of course, it is happening. This is one of the reasons why we need to educate ourselves.
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Diamond Dog - The pickpockets work the areas where there's money and where people are not expecting the vulnerability that the thieves introduce. Audiophiles represent just such a neighborhood with their demonstrated, indeed insistent, gullibility and their vain pursuit of status and ego gratification.
I'm not sure who's to blame in all of this but I am sure it is happening.
Thanks for your reply.
As I said, there are always elements in any industry who deserve to be considered with caution. I'm not taking some Pollyanna position of saying the the Holy Hobby is as pure as the driven snow. I find the paranoia and hyperbole exhibited in the post ( for example ) which I mentioned to be extreme and all too common on AC. Anyone who thinks that most of the audio industry is crooked should just move on to and take up another hobby before it slowly drives them mad. If you think the table is rigged, feel free to push your chair away, get up and leave. It's no wonder threads like these swerve in and out of the weeds of Quarantine until they finally get binned. They get used as a soapbox by people with agendas to push and it's always the same "they're out to get us and our money" nonsense proposing the existence of some industry-wide conspiracy to feed on the weak and the lame, excluding, of course, the few, the proud, the brave who, in the face of insurmountable odds, manage to fight the good fight in an industry more corrupt than Serpico could have withstood. You know, the guys that built my stuff, 'cuz I would never fall for any of the evildoing that is woven into the very fabric of audio, right? Malice and derision gets directed towards the dummies who "spend too much" on "the wrong things" according to the panel of self-appointed experts who always have the inside track, be it some tweak or cables or the"wrong" amplifier or speaker design or whatever else is the hobbyhorse du jour. Most of this has little to nothing to do with audio when all is said and done.
As to who's to blame, it's certainly not the vast majority of people in this industry who are just doing a job. Why should those people get tarred with the same brush ? If audiophiles are supposedly insistently gullible and locked in a vain pursuit of status and ego gratification ( and by the way, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in finding that categorization to be both incorrect and offensive ), a fair number of them also seem to struggle with paranoid delusions of persecution and an unending compulsion to proselytize on behalf of their One True Faith. And it would be nice if they would get over it.
And by the way, "most of the people in" ANY "industry are looking for your wallet", bardamu. What happens beyond that is pretty much up to you.
D.D.
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Thanks for your reply.
As I said, there are always elements in any industry who deserve to be considered with caution. I'm not taking some Pollyanna position of saying the the Holy Hobby is as pure as the driven snow. I find the paranoia and hyperbole exhibited in the post ( for example ) which I mentioned to be extreme and all too common on AC. Anyone who thinks that most of the audio industry is crooked should just move on to and take up another hobby before it slowly drives them mad. If you think the table is rigged, feel free to push your chair away, get up and leave. It's no wonder threads like these swerve in and out of the weeds of Quarantine until they finally get binned. They get used as a soapbox by people with agendas to push and it's always the same "they're out to get us and our money" nonsense proposing the existence of some industry-wide conspiracy to feed on the weak and the lame, excluding, of course, the few, the proud, the brave who, in the face of insurmountable odds, manage to fight the good fight in an industry more corrupt than Serpico could have withstood. You know, the guys that built my stuff, 'cuz I would never fall for any of the evildoing that is woven into the very fabric of audio, right? Malice and derision gets directed towards the dummies who "spend too much" on "the wrong things" according to the panel of self-appointed experts who always have the inside track, be it some tweak or cables or the"wrong" amplifier or speaker design or whatever else is the hobbyhorse du jour. Most of this has little to nothing to do with audio when all is said and done.
As to who's to blame, it's certainly not the vast majority of people in this industry who are just doing a job. Why should those people get tarred with the same brush ? If audiophiles are supposedly insistently gullible and locked in a vain pursuit of status and ego gratification ( and by the way, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in finding that categorization to be both incorrect and offensive ), a fair number of them also seem to struggle with paranoid delusions of persecution and an unending compulsion to proselytize on behalf of their One True Faith. And it would be nice if they would get over it.
And by the way, "most of the people in" ANY "industry are looking for your wallet", bardamu. What happens beyond that is pretty much up to you.
D.D.
Absolutely.
I put my offer out to Roger, because I know he knows his stuff. I also know that theories - regardless of how grounded they are in laws, rules, theorems, etc. - remain theories until tested. Science doesn't work any other way. Personal knowledge doesn't work any other way either.
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That's a very succinct summary of the problem with fuses. In some cases, for them to offer protection, they are forced to operate into their thermally reactive region. In some cases, that can have a sonic impact. This is the kernel of truth lying beneath the hype.
In such cases, the solution is less likely an 'improved' fuse than it is an alternative device. There are other types of protection devices, some of which are resettable. In some cases, an acceptable solution is to discard the protection altogether – as with fuses which protect the drivers comprising one's speakers.
Think about the problem with fuses as similar to that with MOVs, except that the latter can fail disastrously when forced to operate in a continuous manner as a voltage clamp (a reason to avoid 130V MOVs).
Getting back to the fuses, I could not agree more with the criticisms of Tuning Fuses based upon their operation as protection devices. Extremism is rarely, if ever, accurate. It's also completely unnecessary.
A fuse under normal operating conditions is a direct short, not a resistor. Scotty is giving the fuse more qualities than are actually at play. I stand by the assertion that tuning fuses are junk science.
Hopefully, Roger can weigh in and provide additional input.
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HI, Nice to see this discussion is still going on and civil for the most part.
A fuse under normal operating conditions is a direct short, not a resistor. Scotty is giving the fuse more qualities than are actually at play. I stand by the assertion that tuning fuses are junk science.
Hopefully, Roger can weigh in and provide additional input.
A fuse has a very small resistance and the change in that resistance with temperature is even smaller. To determine its influence those numbers must be compared to the other numbers in the circuit. If you have a million dollars I doubt you would miss a buck or two. If you have only few bucks one or two lost would be significant. Its the same way with science in many things. Throwing a bucket of water in the ocean is not the same as throwing it into a pool or your sink. So lets get some perspective.
As I have said the total circuit resistance in the home plus power amp is few ohms. A 5 amp slow blow fuse http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/cartridge-fuses/5x20mm-fuses/215/215005.aspx
has a resistance of 0.015 ohms. In a 3 ohm circuit that is 0.5%. If the resistance varies 2 to 1 over the temp change due to current change this is still a small number which is made smaller by the large filter caps in the power amp. This is also nothing compared to instantaneous changes in the line voltage.
For use in a CD player or preamp the numbers are all larger and the fuse resistance percentage even less. In addition unlike a power amp that draws varying current with signal, these devices do not so there is no change in (the already insignificant) resistance.
Believe what you will, this is what is going on electrically and that is the subject here.
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I'm sure the fuse makers are not claiming the alleged improvement in sound afforded by their product has anything to do with resistance, or any other traditional electrical performance characteristic. But just as with cable makers, they have to have SOME story with which to sell their fuse. And they've gotten away with it, at least with technically ignorant (no offence intended; the word has negative connotations, but I'm not using it as a synonym for stupid, as is so often the case these days) subjective reviewers.
I love the story Frank Van Alstine told years ago: One of the then new cable makers was claiming that the low frequencies and the high frequencies of a signal would travel down the company's cable only via the appropriate strands of wire in their multi-gauge cable. Frank suggested that only the strands of the cable intended for the high frequencies be inserted into an AC outlet, and the other end of the wires be placed in the company man's hand, to test whether or not those strands would or would not carry the 60Hz current. The point being, of course, that if the claim were untrue the man would be electrocuted. The suggestion was met with a blank stare. Good one, Frank! I'm sure everyone here knows the current would travel down ANY wire, but the claim of the cable company was their only selling point. Without it, they had no story with which to sell their wire. I don't recall any subjective reviewer expressing any reservations about that company's claim for the design of their cable :lol:.
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When I want to know something and can do a simple experiment to find something out then I do it. This is how one can build hands-on knowledge. If you do the experiment yourself who are you going to believe, the experiment or the purveyors of myth? I was curious about how much a fuse resistance changes with temperature. I took a 2.5 amp, 5x20mm slow blow made by Littlefuse. It is the same type I use in all my amplifiers for the mains.
One cannot measure this with an ohm meter and the current has to be flowing of course. I simply connected it to a constant current supply (you can use a voltage supply with a 10 ohm resistor to do a similar thing. Here is the data,
Current Voltage drop
0.1 amp 10 mv
0.5 amp 48 mV
1 amp 100 mV
2 amps 210-220 mV
I also took the fuse out a few times and got different readings due to holder contact resistance. Putting some Deoxit on the fuse lowered the 2 amp drop to 130 mV which is a good improvement. However this drop of 200 mV even if it doubles is small compared to the 120 Volt line to which we must compare.
Perhaps we should all take our fuses out, clean them and put them back in if we want to listen for some improvement.
The fuse was warm at 2 amps and it is interesting to note that its resistance hardly changes from 0.1 amp to 2 amps being 100 mV per amp.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=87434)
A plea for someone to take on the task of honest review; or how do we go about reclaiming our hobby?
One recurring theme I see in the current audiophile press is dismay over the direction to which “HI END” AUDIO is turning. If you go to my website you will see references to many articles which try to help the neophyte audiophile, spend his audio dollars wisely. Is it any wonder that when a normal well adjusted human being is introduced to our hobby, that they throw up their hands in dismay and run for the Bose boutique in terror, when confronted by a sales person who’s already convinced them they need a $10,000 plus system, who then tries to up sell them three to four thousand dollars of speaker, interconnect, and mains cables. In most cases all this person is looking for is a quality sound system to listen to music on.
fyi I've started a new thread on the topic of hi/end reviews with links to some interesting stuff.
......................... fastfred
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=87434)
A plea for someone to take on the task of honest review; or how do we go about reclaiming our hobby?
The other article titled: ( http://positive-feedback.com/Issue74/fuses.htm )
(HiFi Supreme and Audio Horizons' "Platinum Reference More Than A Fuse”) Fuses by Robert Youman.
The definition of a fuse:
……a safety device consisting of a strip of wire that melts and breaks an electric circuit if the current exceeds a safe level. My complaint here is if you are reviewing a fuse shouldn’t you be testing this fuse for what it’s designed for? Actually stressing the fuse enough to cause it to blow. Then comparing the fuse to it’s specifications to see if it failed as it should have when it should have.
If these products actually do their job as fuses, to protect the circuit they’re part of, then I would say that the verbiage used to describe how wonderful they are & the attributes they bring to the listening experience are warranted.
But nowhere in this article does it even say what these fuses were designed for and what their specs are. Positive Feedback Online should be brought to task for the gross irresponsibility of publishing this review. Refer to Rogers post about tuning fuse from 2013. ( http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105425.0 )
Well PFO is at it again. Here's a link to another tuning fuse product this time from cable manufacturer Synergistic Research ( http://positive-feedback.com/Issue75/red_fuses.htm ).
The interesting thing about these tuning fuse reviews is no mention is made about the
voltage of the fuse & the current it’s designed for, whether they are slow blow etc, etc.
This fellow is the same person who reviewed the other 2 brands of hi/end audio fuses.
I would hope Synergistic Research being an American Company cable manufacturing company
knows how to manufacture a fuse properly. All the reviewer said under the heading Design
was how these new products compared to his earlier review in last months PFO. Again no
mention of whether these fuses could actually do their job properly. ( protect the equipment
in which they are installed ).
I can’t see how they could based on the following quote: ( the 2nd. under the design heading )
“The Synergistic Research Reference RED fuse is a horse of a different color. The basic design features proprietary alloy wire and
end caps utilizing anti-resonant ceramic bodies. They are treated with 2,000,000 volts of electricity that Synergistic Research calls
Quantum Tunneling. In addition, Synergistic Research claims that "a new treatment process applied exclusively to RED fuses realigns
the crystal structure of both the burn wire and the end caps for a refinement in high frequency characteristics and improved timbre linearity".
If after this treatment they actually can do the job of a fuse then the only quibble I have is the price charged to the gullible among us. I think
perhaps the gov’t department responsible for standards & measurements should be made aware of these products. What if someone installed
these fuses in their equipment & started a fire, what if said fire caused an injury or death.
I repeat If the product can do what it’s designed for ( after all it’s called a fuse ) & if it can be designed to improve how a given component sounds
then go ahead and buy them if you can afford them. ( $89 to $99)
………………………….. a very disgusted fastfred
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A fuse is a safety device not an audio device,it's first priority is to keep circuitry safe from destruction,...
fast blow fuses are opened at 150% of their rated current...
faster fuses can be designed with solid state devices to open much faster...
not an expert, just an experimenter... :green:
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Hi all.
Yes, a fuse is first a safety device,
then second it might be a audio improvement device.
At 100 USD a fuse, you better make sure you don't replace a 5 amps fuse
by a 2 amps fuse.
If it was me, I would hate to see a 100 USD fuse blow within a fraction of a second
and if you have a problem with your amplifier or the same, who can afford to blow several fuses in a row within the time you realize that you have a problem with the unit the fuse is supposed to protect.
On the other hand, if you can afford it, then who cares.
I am sure that those believers will install the super duper HiFi fuse without even cleaning the contacts and say that there is a HUGE sound improvement.
Well I am sure the manufacturer and the dealer will laugh their head off right up to the bank. :lol:
I don't feel sorry for the believers, after all, it's their money.
This month, I will make a test with a Signal Cable power cable I purchased a few years back to see/hear what everybody was all the talking about.
I did not hear any improvement in the sound on my tube amplifier
(Decware SE84C+) and my CD Player (Rega Apollo)
but this time, I will be with a audio Vietnamese friend of mine
and we will be using his equipment
and he will tell me if he hears an improvement.
If he agrees, I want to blindfold him and switch from a stock cable
to the Super Duper cable so that the he's not bias by knowing
which cable is connected to his equipment.
I am convinced that it will be a lot of fun
and it will confirm my thoughts
and I will also participate into the blind folding thing.
I love this hobby and all it's exchange of thoughts.
Guy 13
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Hello George:
I wrote a letter to the editors @ PFO with link to this post. You are absolutely correct a fuse is a safety device.
In my opinion the specs for the fuse should be published along with the review of the dubious effect they have
on the sound. Well that's not happening. All they yap about is how the imaging or bass response is improved.
..................................... Fastfred
P.T. Barnum said "there's a sucker born every minute"
I'm not sure who said this "if you can't persuade them with logic, baffle them with bullish_t.
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Hello George:
I wrote a letter to the editors @ PFO with link to this post. You are absolutely correct a fuse is a safety device.
In my opinion the specs for the fuse should be published along with the review of the dubious effect they have
on the sound. Well that's not happening. All they yap about is how the imaging or bass response is improved.
..................................... Fastfred
P.T. Barnum said "there's a sucker born every minute"
I'm not sure who said this "if you can't persuade them with logic, baffle them with bullish_t.
Hi fastfred.
I know a guy that had a business and he built his business on that sentence:
" There's a sucker born every minute "
I know, I use to do service and start up for him.
He even made me a bank certified check that bounced.
I don't want to slap my suspenders (Probably not the right expression, but I am sure you know what I mean) but I use to design and build industrial gas burner panels and I did the sizing of all the fuses in the panel from 24Volts to 575 Volts.
Therefore, I think a know a thing or two about fuses.
Someone might say, what does that have to do with audio fuses?
Well, for one, fuses are protection devices.
O.K. I will get off your hair, since what I am writing is far from being constructive.
Guy 13
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Thanks to all for keeping this thread going. I read the review and particularity take issue with the following statement.
They are treated with 2,000,000 volts of electricity that Synergistic Research calls Quantum Tunneling. In addition, Synergistic Research claims that "a new treatment process applied exclusively to RED fuses realigns the crystal structure of both the burn wire and the end caps for a refinement in high frequency characteristics and improved timbre linearity".
First at 30,000 volts per inch for the breakdown of air we a spark that will jump 67 inches. Perhaps they do it in a vacuum. Two million volts is not easy to obtain from anything but a Van de Graaffe generator and a small one only does 100,000 volts.
The problem with voltage is also where do you apply it. Across the fuse is impossible, from the fuse to ground at 67 inches? What does elevating a fuse above ground do anyway. These are the claims we should be addressing as they are pure foolishness. :duh:
How about one letter per volt to the editor stating how foolish that claim is.
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Thanks to all for keeping this thread going. I read the review and particularity take issue with the following statement.
They are treated with 2,000,000 volts of electricity that Synergistic Research calls Quantum Tunneling. In addition, Synergistic Research claims that "a new treatment process applied exclusively to RED fuses realigns the crystal structure of both the burn wire and the end caps for a refinement in high frequency characteristics and improved timbre linearity".
First at 30,000 volts per inch for the breakdown of air we a spark that will jump 67 inches. Perhaps they do it in a vacuum. Two million volts is not easy to obtain from anything but a Van de Graaffe generator and a small one only does 100,000 volts.
The problem with voltage is also where do you apply it. Across the fuse is impossible, from the fuse to ground at 67 inches? What does elevating a fuse above ground do anyway. These are the claims we should be addressing as they are pure foolishness. :duh:
How about one letter per volt to the editor stating how foolish that claim is.
Hi Roger.
Give me all the details
and I will send him an e-mail telling him that his claim is foolish.
2,000,000 volts, do they think all audiophiles are ignorant and stupid ?
Coming up with a claim like that, that's what he must think.
And by the way, what does that prove other that trying to impress a buyer.
" WOW ! My friend,
did you know that the fuse I am using in my amplifier
was tested at 2,000,000 volts
that's the proof that it's a super fuse
and if it can withstand 2,000,000 Volts it can sure make your amplifier sound better."
Draken double drak, does he think we are all stupid?
Well, maybe not all of us, but some of us
and it's like they say:
There is a (Ignorant) sucker born every minute,
and if it's not every minute, it every 5 minutes,
that's still a lot of suckers...
Guy 13
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Hmmm. 10audio.com also had a review on the Audio Horizons "More Than A Fuse" fuse. I believe Jerry Seigel
was the reviewer and proprietor of said review website. That review was done this February. He actually put them
in amplifiers. He has a link to the Audio Horizons website, but there is no mention of any fuses to be bought.
Is all this a ploy to get people to advertisers websites? :nono:
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Hmmm. 10audio.com also had a review on the Audio Horizons "More Than A Fuse" fuse. I believe Jerry Seigel
was the reviewer and proprietor of said review website. That review was done this February. He actually put them
in amplifiers. He has a link to the Audio Horizons website, but there is no mention of any fuses to be bought.
Is all this a ploy to get people to advertisers websites? :nono:
I totally agree it is a :nono:
It occurred to me while re/reading an earlier on page of this forum , to ask what audiophile related magazines do you read??
& which ones would you recommend for honesty & accurracy in reporting. Are there any internet magazines which charge a
fee, and accept no advertising left out there. Those 2 attributes could be indicators of honest reviewing. A technical editor would be a plus.
If you are interested there are several topics in the Music Reference Circle which deal with the tuning fuse issue.
............................ (fastfred)
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"2,000,000 volts, do they think all audiophiles are ignorant and stupid ?"
Perhaps the terms ignorant and stupid are a bit strong. More like gullible. After all, as I wrote in another post on another thread here, audiophiles prefer to think of their hobby as more art than science. In fact I would go so far as to say all art and no science. Art is subjective and easier to understand than science, and it creates more excitement. To the growing majority of audiophiles science is dull. Proof is easily found in many of the threads on Audiogon. Which by the way has played a huge part in fueling the growth in the number of manufacturers, specifically the wire and fuse guys, that design and more importantly market their products first and foremost to the artsy audiophiles preferences as opposed to designing them to be safe and reliable. Just look at the nomenclature and vocabulary used in the hobby these days. Reviewers are part of the problem too as they feed the well audiophiles drink from.
What we need to realize is that many manufacturers today are doing the simple thing from a business perspective. They are following the money. From the manufacturers perspective why spend time and energy educating the audiophile who is more than happy to throw money at products such as boutique fuses that use fancy marketing terms to describe their benefits. It's all about marketing which is easier for the "new breed" of audiophile to digest than science will ever be. Am I being a bit jaded here? I suppose so but then again I can look in the mirror and with some embarrassment say that I have fallen prey to such marketing tactics. That is until I met someone who has spent time educating me otherwise. Lucky for me my 401k is still fully intact. Like my mentor, we are lucky to have people like Roger who is willing to invest time and resources to educate. If only more people would listen and learn.
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From Wikipedia, regarding quantum tunneling (which Synergistic claims they use):
"Quantum tunnelling falls under the domain of quantum mechanics: the study of what happens at the quantum scale. This process cannot be directly perceived, but much of its understanding is shaped by the microscopic world, which classical mechanics cannot adequately explain."
Here's the link if you wish to read it in it's entirety:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling
So Synergistic is claiming to use something that exists in science, but is very difficult to understand (let alone explain) by anyone who isn't a quantum physicist or deeply engaged in this realm. This is the perfect scapegoat for a strong concoction of snake oil, I think.
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Does Positive Feedback Online have a method for readers to comment on reviews? I see that Stereophile does and the comments are often answered by the reviewer or John Atkinson. If they do I would be asking the reviewer some questions which he might try to answer or forward to the manufacturer.
I would really like to know about the 2 million volts is applied. There used to be a way to report false advertising. is that gone too?
Here is some commentary from the review in 2007 http://www.stereophile.com/powerlineaccessories/907fuse/index.html
this is 2014 http://www.stereophile.com/content/about-tweaks-and-snake-oil
I just typed "fuses" into the search on Stereophile. It appears most of the commentary feels these are foolishness. A few think the reviewer vetted them, though there is no evidence of this.
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There are a number of stun guns claiming to have from 2 million to 6.8 million volts. One comment I read on stun gun voltage:
The limiting factors are the voltage breakdown of air and the shape and spacing of the electrodes (or any uninsulated internal high voltage wiring). The voltage breakdown of dry air between spherical electrodes (an ideal case) is approximately 33 kV/cm. In extremely humid air it will be slightly higher. In air at high altitudes it will be significantly less. I'll be generous and estimate that the electrodes on the stun gun are 5cm (2") apart. That would mean that the voltage developed could only reach about 165,000 volts before it begins to form an arc. Once an arc occurs, the ionized air in the arc conducts relatively easily and the voltage will plummet to something on the order of a few 1000 volts.
Perhaps the 2 million volts required for "quantum tunneling" can be applied from a pulse-type stun gun device for a one nanosecond duration? ;)
In which case, a < $20 device should do the trick! Or how about this "6.8 million volt" beauty for $4.50!
http://www.amazon.com/MTW-800-Black-Million-Rechargeable-Flashlight/dp/B00563GN4S/ref=sr_1_3?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1410283189&sr=1-3&keywords=2 (http://www.amazon.com/MTW-800-Black-Million-Rechargeable-Flashlight/dp/B00563GN4S/ref=sr_1_3?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1410283189&sr=1-3&keywords=2) million volt stun gun
Steve
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Does Positive Feedback Online have a method for readers to comment on reviews? I see that Stereophile does and the comments
are often answered by the reviewer or John Atkinson. If they do I would be asking the reviewer some questions which he might try
to answer or forward to the manufacturer.
I would really like to know about how the 2 million volts is applied. There used to be a way to report false advertising. is that gone too?
"2,000,000 volts, do they think all audiophiles are ignorant and stupid ?"
Perhaps the terms ignorant and stupid are a bit strong. More like gullible. After all, as I wrote in another post on another thread here, audiophiles
prefer to think of their hobby as more art than science. In fact I would go so far as to say all art and no science. Art is subjective and easier to
understand than science, and it creates more excitement. To the growing majority of audiophiles science is dull. Proof is easily found in many of the
threads on Audiogon. Which by the way has played a huge part in fueling the growth in the number of manufacturers, specifically the wire and fuse guys,
that design and more importantly market their products first and foremost to the artsy audiophiles preferences as opposed to designing them to be safe
and reliable. Just look at the nomenclature and vocabulary used in the hobby these days. Reviewers are part of the problem too as they feed the well
audiophiles drink from.
What we need to realize is that many manufacturers today are doing the simple thing from a business perspective. They are following the money. From
the manufacturers perspective why spend time and energy educating the audiophile who is more than happy to throw money at products such as boutique
fuses that use fancy marketing terms to describe their benefits. It's all about marketing which is easier for the "new breed" of audiophile to digest than
science will ever be. Am I being a bit jaded here? I suppose so but then again I can look in the mirror and with some embarrassment say that I have fallen
prey to such marketing tactics. That is until I met someone who has spent time educating me otherwise. Lucky for me my 401k is still fully intact. Like my
mentor, we are lucky to have people like Roger who is willing to invest time and resources to educate. If only more people would listen and learn.
Hello Roger:
You will find 2 links to the editors in the PFO table of contents under the heading Reverbrations in a column Titled "Our Readers Respond… and We Respond
Right Back!" ( http://positive-feedback.com/Issue75/letters.htm ).
To clio09 & anyone else on this forum who agrees that tuning fuses as they are being presented might in fact be a scam; I urge you to do as I have already done
& Roger is preparing to do; that is to send a letter of protest to PFO. Here is what I sent PFO earlier today. It was a response to another letter sent by a PFO reader.
To the editors:
I agree with Mr. Fant, the review was done well, from a subjective point of view. My quarrel
with this review is that no reference is made to the electrical specifications of these fuses in
the reviews. I know of one manufacturer who will void your warranty if you use them in his products.
A fuse first & foremost is a safety device. Don’t you think it’s your responsibility to make sure a product
does what it’s supposed to do do electrically, & should that not be part of the review? I know that fuses
that are normally used in audio equipment must be designed properly and used in a proper manner. If you
wrap a tube in tinfoil & blow up your amp you void the warranty. If you use the wrong fuse in your amp
and it chernobyl’s , Putin will be looking for you. There may be legal ramifications as well. Use your imagination for a
worst case scenario. (a fire) How will you feel if you knowingly publish a review that leads to someone using the product
and then getting hurt. How could this happen? Well how many of us have ducked out for 20 minutes to get a loaf of
bread leaving the system to warm up? ( let alone forgetting to turn it off )
Remember you are a well respected magazine.
………………………………… Fred Petersen (fastfred )
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Hello Roger: PFO has a column Titled "Our Readers Respond… and We Respond Right Back!" ( http://positive-feedback.com/Issue75/letters.htm )
There are 2 links to the editors.
To clio09 & anyone else on this forum who agrees that tuning fuses as they are being presented might in fact be a scam; I urge you to do as I have already done
& Roger is preparing to do; that is to send a letter of protest to PFO. Here is what I sent PFO earlier today. It was a response to another letter sent by a PFO reader.
To the editors:
I agree with Mr. Fant, the review was done well, from a subjective point of view. My quarrel
with this review is that no reference is made to the electrical specifications of these fuses in
the reviews. I know of one manufacturer who will void your warranty if you use them in his products.
A fuse first & foremost is a safety device. Don’t you think it’s your responsibility to make sure a product
does what it’s supposed to do do electrically, & should that not be part of the review? I know that fuses
that are normally used in audio equipment must be designed properly and used in a proper manner. If you
wrap a tube in tinfoil & blow up your amp you void the warranty. If you use the wrong fuse in your amp
and it chernobyl’s , Putin will be looking for you. There may be legal ramifications as well. Use your imagination for a
worst case scenario. (a fire) How will you feel if you knowingly publish a review that leads to someone using the product
and then getting hurt. How could this happen? Well how many of us have ducked out for 20 minutes to get a loaf of
bread leaving the system to warm up? ( let alone forgetting to turn it off )
Remember you are a well respected magazine.
………………………………… Fred Petersen (fastfred )
Is this in response to J.A. Fant, Esq?
Let us know when you get a response. I only see a few letters here, where do we find more?
I like the way Stereophile does it by putting the letters and responses with the review making it easy to follow the topic.
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Is this in response to J.A. Fant, Esq?
Let us know when you get a response. I only see a few letters here, where do we find more?
I like the way Stereophile does it by putting the letters and responses with the review making it easy to follow the topic.
Hello Roger: Yes the letter was in response to J.A. Fant Esq. The number of letters you see there can sometimes be as few as one.
They take a long time to respond. Sometime up to 2 weeks in my experience. The last e-mail in the letters column The Higher End....
( about the expectation of privacy ) never is removed. If there are no letters from the readership that letter is always on that page.
It's tone may explain the low number of letters there as well.
........................... fastfred
p.s. Twice in the past I've sent letters to the editor & have not been published, they do however respond to the letter with a reason if
they don't publish your letter.
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fastfred, I read StereoMojo (it hasn't updated for quite a while now), PF, 10audio on a
somewhat regular basis. StereoMojo being the most regular as it is easy to read and
most entertaining. I usually follow the Cheap Bastard stuff. I can't afford anything
beyond cheap bastard territory, although I've tried a few times and gotten into
financial trouble. :duh:
Here's a thought. Maybe someone on AC would like to be a reviewer. There are many
technically qualified members and I tend to believe someone on this site compared
to current reviewers. Anybody up to the challenge. Hmmm. Forgot Vedder? comes
to mind. Anybody else up to the challenge? I'm not an engineer and don't even play
one on TV. :lol:
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2 ,000 ,000 volts
even 10 ,000 volts will destroy the fuse
but you know why they are saying to sell
no equipment have 2,000,000 volts inside,more of 600 volts max(with tubes ss would be 240 volts)
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2 ,000 ,000 volts
even 10 ,000 volts will destroy the fuse
Probably not, if there is negligible current involved. That's why you can safely touch the 100,000V globe of a Van de Graaff generator in science class to make your hair stand on end.
Steve
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Probably not, if there is negligible current involved. That's why you can safely touch the 100,000V globe of a Van de Graaff generator in science class to make your hair stand on end.
Steve
Hi Steve,
on the other hand a 2V X 100,000 amps can kill you.
That's what I have been told by Alcan Canada where they process aluminum.
Does that make sense to you?
Guy 13
Sorry, a little off topic, but maybe informative.
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on the other hand a 2V X 100,000 amps can kill you.
That's what I have been told by Alcan Canada where they process aluminum.
Does that make sense to you?
It's the amount of current that can be life threatening or fatal. It also depends on the path that current travels through the body. If the current has a path through the heart, such as completing a circuit with both hands, as little as 10mA can be fatal. The same 10mA completing a circuit through two fingers of the same hand would not likely be fatal.
On the subject of the 2 million volts used as a process to improve electrical fuses, I don't doubt that some kind of stun gun circuitry might be able to produce that voltage, but the lack of both appreciable current and time duration would make me doubt that anything meaningful is taking place, i.e. "quantum tunneling".
Steve
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When you apply a voltage to something there must be a reference. As I often said to a friend learning electronics, "so where are you gonna put the other probe?"
Two million volts! Referenced to what? How is it applied to the fuse? Certainly not across it. Do they just touch the fuse to a Van de Graaffe using a plastic rod. How does that do anything. I doubt they know what Quantum Tunneling is, but it will sound good to some fool. I looked it up, doesn't seem to apply to fuses or how they might sound.
I pointed it out because it is so absolutely ridiculous. However, the average person knows less about electricity now than 50 years ago. I presume that is their targeted customer.
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I pointed it out because it is so absolutely ridiculous. However, the average person knows less about electricity now than 50 years ago. I presume that is their targeted customer.
There are many of these customers to target as well.
Perhaps you should contact Ted Denney who runs Synergistic Research and ask him the tough questions directly. It would be interesting to hear what he says. If you Google him you will find some interviews with him from Stereophile that might shed some light on who you are dealing with.
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"2,000,000 volts, do they think all audiophiles are ignorant and stupid ?"
Perhaps the terms ignorant and stupid are a bit strong. More like gullible. After all, as
I wrote in another post on another thread here, audiophiles prefer to think of their
hobby as more art than science. In fact I would go so far as to say all art and no science.
Art is subjective and easier to understand than science, and it creates more excitement.
To the growing majority of audiophiles science is dull. Proof is easily found in many of
the threads on Audiogon. Which by the way has played a huge part in fueling the
growth in the number of manufacturers, specifically the wire and fuse guys, that
design and more importantly market their products first and foremost to the artsy audiophiles
preferences as opposed to designing them to be safe and reliable.
Just look at the nomenclature and vocabulary used in the hobby these days. “Reviewers are part of the
problem too as they feed the well audiophiles drink from.”
What we need to realize is that many manufacturers today are doing the simple thing from a business
perspective. They are following the money. From the manufacturers perspective why spend time and energy
educating the audiophile who is more than happy to throw money at products such as boutique fuses that use fancy
marketing terms to describe their benefits. It's all about marketing which is easier for the "new breed" of audiophile
to digest than science will ever be. Am I being a bit jaded here? I suppose so but then again I can look in the mirror and
with some embarrassment say that I have fallen prey to such marketing tactics. That is until I met someone who has spent t
ime educating me otherwise. Lucky for me my 401k is still fully intact. Like my mentor, we are lucky to have people like Roger
who is willing to invest time and resources to educate. If only more people would listen and learn.
I too have been a victim of the rhetoric, that's the main reason I started down this path. I hope/hoped to save someone else the
drain on their pocketbook. I totally agree we are very lucky to have people like Roger & my friend & mentor up here in the GWN.
For the record I put it to you that “reviewers are the problem”. That’s the reason I started this topic as well as other topics dealing
with questionable accessories & mods.
There are many of these customers to target as well.
Perhaps you should contact Ted Denney who runs Synergistic Research and ask him the
tough questions directly. It would be interesting to hear what he says. If you Google him
you will find some interviews with him from Stereophile that might shed some light on who
you are dealing with.
As you stated in your earlier post “Reviewers are part of the problem too as they feed the well audiophiles drink from”.
His marketing strategy is btwbs (baffle them with B.S.). However I will lookup some of those interviews.
For the record I put it to you that “reviewers are the problem”. That’s the reason I started this topic as well
as other topics dealing with questionable accessories & mods.
I don’t think that contacting Mr. Denney would help, he will do what it takes to sell a product. That’s the nature
of the beast. Based on the PFO review, his rhetoric sounds like speaker cable claims made back in the 1980’s.
This time it’s a fuse. The price of an amplifier can be anywhere from $1500 or less to as high as $100,000. PfO has
a speaker cable review in this month’s issue where the cost of the cables is $20,000. When you look at, that price, these
Synergistic Research products $89 to $99 seem to be a bargain. They need to be able to act as a fuse first, if the process
of making a good safe fuse, can improve the sound of a product as much as stated in all the fuse reviews I’ve read, than
maybe they are a bargain.
PFO & other audiophile rags need to tell the manufacturer to see the pertinent specifications of these products before they will review
them. If the manufacturer won’t supply specs it should noted in the review. ( hahhah, fat chance of that eh?)
Looked at in the light of the cost of a good quality generic fuse usually less than buck, then they’re not a bargain.
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I know people at PFO and am crafting an email to one of them to comment on the review and make some suggestions on how they can better serve their readers. Maybe it will help, or maybe not.
I would hope that Roger could email Ted Denney and have a designer-to-designer chat with him. At which point we may get closer to the truth.
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I know people at PFO and am crafting an email to one of them to comment on the review and make some suggestions
on how they can better serve their readers. Maybe it will help, or maybe not.
I would hope that Roger could email Ted Denney and have a designer-to-designer chat with him. At which point we may
get closer to the truth.
I already sent an e-mail to the letters column on PFO, & and I also discovered there is a forum there where one can join
(I'm going to try & post there). Good luck getting through to the editors, I know Roger tried. I believe the reviewer from PFO
was quoting the sales pitch from Synergistic Research in his review.
I'm going to quote you here:
“Reviewers are part of the problem too as they feed the well audiophiles drink from.”
I believe the goal we should strive for is the title of this topic pure & simple
(The future of hi/end audio & a rant on honesty in reviewing"
I don't believe we will be able to sway Mr. Denney, but with this ongoing topic in Music Reference Circle perhaps
we can put enough pressure on the (the editors) that they will take responsibility for what
they put out there. (hold their reviewers to a higher standard).
............................... fastfred
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Hi Roger,
If you would like the user manual for our ABX Test box send an e-mail to me, avahifi@comcast.net and I will send you the .pdf file.
Its a $995 unit that allows connection to a source, two preamps, two power amps, and three sets of speakers either with or without subwoofers. It allows exact level matching and either long term informal testing or short term double blind testing. It works really well.
Frank
I was going to spend about $1000 on cables but i got wise and bought Frank's ABX box. Now i ain't got no money to get ripped off on cables with. Glad i went the smart route....
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Folks, I'm afraid this thread is getting dangerously close to being moved to Quarantine again. For those who don't know, you may not use AudioCircle as a vehicle for attacking others. Technical facts are fine, but "guilty parties"? I don't think so. The phrase "live and let live" might be the best way to put it.
With regard to reviewing, HifiZine (http://www.hifizine.com/) accepts submissions from members of the audiophile community. Well-written and thoughtful reviews or articles are welcome, and we'll work with you to get your submission into publishable form. Bear in mind that articles are to be written for the reader, not the writer, so unadorned rants and the like aren't of interest.
Thanks for your consideration.
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Folks, I'm afraid this thread is getting dangerously close to being moved to Quarantine again. For those who don't know, you may not use AudioCircle as a vehicle for attacking others. Technical facts are fine, but "guilty parties"? I don't think so. The phrase "live and let live" might be the best way to put it.
With regard to reviewing, HifiZine (http://www.hifizine.com/) accepts submissions from members of the audiophile community. Well-written and thoughtful reviews or articles are welcome, and we'll work with you to get your submission into publishable form. Bear in mind that articles are to be written for the reader, not the writer, so unadorned rants and the like aren't of interest.
Thanks for your consideration.
I'm the person who used the term guilty parties, my apology for that, I've modified the reply by
removing the 2 words, guilty & party. In my defence these reviews published by PFO are in the public
domain, and because of this, are they not subject to challenge & rebuttal especially if something of a
dubious nature or even downright snake oil is published. Should they not be called to task?
Sorry if I offended, if you want to pm me with any further suggestions, I'd appreciate it. The last thing I want is
to be responsible for closing this thread.
............................ fastfred
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With regard to reviewing, HifiZine (http://www.hifizine.com/) accepts submissions from members of the audiophile community. Well-written and thoughtful reviews or articles are welcome, and we'll work with you to get your submission into publishable form. Bear in mind that articles are to be written for the reader, not the writer, so unadorned rants and the like aren't of interest.
Thanks for your consideration.
Hello John
I'm glad you sent the above link to (hifzine) I wasn't aware it was online. Early in this topic I asked for people to
weigh in with their favourite magazines. Thanks again John.
................ fastfred
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The notion a fuse can not be improved beyond what .50 cents wields is beyond me. Yes maybe $50 usd is a bit much, but what if it was $25? Is that too much too? Is it price or is the actual improvement that pisses flat-Earthers off?
All it needs to be is more responsive (less resistive) while it maintains a rated blow current. Thats it! You can't tell me this isn't possible? Everything else in front of a transformer has proven to be beneficial to soundstage. Including power cables, outlets, fuse box improvements. Fuses seem to be in line with this group. Sorry impedance rules here and how the fuse drops the impedance the amp transformer sees right down to local neighbourhood transformer.
Sorry, but complaining about an audio reviewer isn't going to change that.
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All it needs to be is more responsive (less resistive) while it maintains a rated blow current. Thats it! You can't tell me this isn't possible?
the fuse does not set the current through the fuse the circuit does! :green:
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the fuse does not set the current through the fuse the circuit does! :green:
Transient power is directly related to how the amp transformer reacts to the local neighbourhood transformer. Everything in between your amp transformer and that local neighbourhood transformer is going to be important.
Including power cords, outlets, house fuse boxes, AMP FUSES, location to the local transformer., time of day and neighbourhood draw on power. Literally everything.
This whole discussion and its opposing views looks like people's under appreciation of how important the local neighbourhood transformer is. That neighbourhood transformer is very much apart of your home audio system. The way your system interacts is crucial to how your stereo/home theatre will sound.
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Onoz $100 fuses. And the French think Quentin Tarantino is a genius. There's no justice in the world, I tell ya. None at all.
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Onoz $100 fuses. And the French think Quentin Tarantino is a genius. There's no justice in the world, I tell ya. None at all.
Who's Quentin Tarantino?
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Who's Quentin Tarantino?
An overrated fuse. That keeps blowing.
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An overrated fuse. That keeps blowing.
Thought so.
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I know people at PFO and am crafting an email to one of them to comment on the review and make some suggestions on how they can better serve their readers. Maybe it will help, or maybe not.
I would hope that Roger could email Ted Denney and have a designer-to-designer chat with him. At which point we may get closer to the truth.
I did contact Ted Denney about the high breaking aspect. He was kind enough to offer a few fuses for testing. I just wrote Ted with my questions about the two million volts and the quantum stuff.
Here is a good explanation of quantum tunneling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling One could interpret this as a bad thing for a conductor as tunneling is very non-linear, and actually causes negative resistance over part of the wave. This led me to a explanation of the tunnel diode. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_diode. If the improved fuse acts like that we don't want it.
see the picture at the end of this 6 moons review for the high voltage. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/synergistic/tesla_2.html
From an electrical point of view the two million volts are being dropped across the sparks, hardly anything across the fuse. One could reduce the distance by half and the voltage by half for the same effect. Then half and half and half again.
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Transient power is directly related to how the amp transformer reacts to the local neighbourhood transformer.
Everything in between your amp transformer and that local neighbourhood transformer is going to be important.
Including power cords, outlets, house fuse boxes, AMP FUSES, location to the local transformer., time of day and
neighbourhood draw on power. Literally everything.
This whole discussion and its opposing views looks like people's under appreciation of how important the
local neighbourhood transformer is. That neighbourhood transformer is very much apart of your home audio
system. The way your system interacts is crucial to how your stereo/home theatre will sound.
I'm not a tech by any stretch of the imagination. Roger's amps use fuses incorporated in the design
to protect the output tubes. There is a topic started by Roger called simply tuning fuses. You can find
it at the top of the Music Reference page along with 8 other permanent topics. Here's another observation,
in one of my solid state power amps, following the power supply fuses there are 2 fuses per channel which
help protect the output transistors on my amp. Late comers to this topic need to read the topic right from the
beginning.
I have no problem with these fuses if they do their job. Because a fuse is first and foremost a
safety device. Should not the specifications for the fuse be published as well as, the subjective part of the
review? If the fuse meets or exceeds it's specs, then I have no problem with the review. (although I wouldn't
pay the asking price of these fuses). The problem is there are no specs published.
The notion a fuse can not be improved beyond what .50 cents wields is beyond me. Yes maybe $50 usd is a
bit much, but what if it was $25? Is that too much too? Is it price or is the actual improvement that pisses
flat-Earthers off?
All it needs to be is more responsive (less resistive) while it maintains a rated blow current. Thats it! You can't tell me
this isn't possible? Everything else in front of a transformer has proven to be beneficial to soundstage. Including power
cables, outlets, fuse box improvements. Fuses seem to be in line with this group. Sorry impedance rules here and how
the fuse drops the impedance the amp transformer sees right down to local neighbourhood transformer.
Sorry, but complaining about an audio reviewer isn't going to change that.
We are trying to do a public service here. If you replaced 5 fuses (as are in my amp) with tuning fuses costing
$89 apiece (the price listed in the PFO review). Thats $445 how would you feel, when the company you bought the
amp from voided your warranty? Would you replace that fuse with another tuning fuse? Or would you go back to the
old 50 cent fuses & eat the $445 you spent, plus whatever the cost of replacing tubes or output transistors plus any
other damage.
That's what this topic is about & that's why we try casting light on reviews which in our opinion don't go far enough.
If you are a review magazine, you need to step up to the plate. If all you are there for is entertainment then people
should be made aware of that. Kind of like the W in WWE stands for WORLD, the WE stands for wrestling entertainment.
You could even include the warning "kids don't do this at home"
............................ fastfred
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The notion a fuse can not be improved beyond what .50 cents wields is beyond me. Yes maybe $50 usd is a bit much, but what if it was $25? Is that too much too? Is it price or is the actual improvement that pisses flat-Earthers off?
All it needs to be is more responsive (less resistive) while it maintains a rated blow current. Thats it! You can't tell me this isn't possible? Everything else in front of a transformer has proven to be beneficial to soundstage. Including power cables, outlets, fuse box improvements. Fuses seem to be in line with this group. Sorry impedance rules here and how the fuse drops the impedance the amp transformer sees right down to local neighbourhood transformer.
Sorry, but complaining about an audio reviewer isn't going to change that.
Please keep in mind that I measured the voltage drop across a 2 amp fuse to be less than 0.2 volts. Your line varies several volts. Even if you reduce the fuse drop to zero you haven't done anything significant. Yes, impedance rules and the fuse is insignificant.
If you want a better example think of how this 0.1 or even 0.5 ohm fuse figures into the primary of a CD player or preamp transformer whose DC resistance is 40 ohms. Again we are talking about millivolts drop, the change in that drop being even less. I've got bigger fish to fry to even bother with something so insignificant.
What we are trying to do here is provide a little resistance (haha) to the flood of unwarranted press these fuses are getting. It's never easy to go against the tide but there are times when reasonable people have to speak up, otherwise this hobby we love loses all respect.
I have a Tesla Coil and if I could set up a booth at the show and get $50 for treating a 50 cent fuse I would be a wealthy man but not able to sleep at night.
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Please keep in mind that I measured the voltage drop across a 2 amp fuse to be less than 0.2 volts. Your line varies several volts. Even if you reduce the fuse drop to zero you haven't done anything significant. Yes, impedance rules and the fuse is insignificant.
If you want a better example think of how this 0.1 or even 0.5 ohm fuse figures into the primary of a CD player or preamp transformer whose DC resistance is 40 ohms. Again we are talking about millivolts drop, the change in that drop being even less. I've got bigger fish to fry to even bother with something so insignificant.
What we are trying to do here is provide a little resistance (haha) to the flood of unwarranted press these fuses are getting. It's never easy to go against the tide but there are times when reasonable people have to speak up, otherwise this hobby we love loses all respect.
I have a Tesla Coil and if I could set up a booth at the show and get $50 for treating a 50 cent fuse I would be a wealthy man but not able to sleep at night.
On an amp it would be the slo blow rating that enables transient power. Measuring the fuse after the rated current in working state into an unregulated power supply?
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On an amp it would be the slo blow rating that enables transient power. Measuring the fuse after the rated current in working state into an unregulated power supply?
Don't think this is correct. Amps don't draw "transient power" from the wall. Transient power (well, ALL power to the signal amplifying parts) in an amp are provided by the power supply (transformer and capacitor bank) unless we're talking about OTL amps, but I you know I mean. Amps continuously draw power from the wall......like continuously topping off a small pool being filled by the ocean. The pool is the amp's power supply. The ocean is the power station.
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Then why does my 14B use a slow blow fuse? Transient current draw into the power supply is common. Peak momentary current draw at the outlet can be 20 to 30 amps on a working un regulated power supply. Bottlenecking those transients is not what you want to do. Crap power cords, lousy house wiring, etc nerfs power supply outputs. It all shows up in the soundstage.
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The Psychological community has explained why you hear what you hear. Believers just choose to ignore them.
Doc
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Then why does my 14B use a slow blow fuse? Transient current draw into the power supply is common. Peak momentary current draw at the outlet can be 20 to 30 amps on a working un regulated power supply. Bottlenecking those transients is not what you want to do. Crap power cords, lousy house wiring, etc nerfs power supply outputs. It all shows up in the soundstage.
It likely uses a slow blow so that it can tolerate the power in-rush when the amp is turned on from a cold state, while the power supply is being filled (to use my pool analogy again) and stabilizes.
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The Psychological community has explained why you hear what you hear. Believers just choose to ignore them.
Doc
There are peer-reviewed psychology studies on audio comparisons between components and/or gear? I didn't know that. Where are they?
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Don't think this is correct. Amps don't draw "transient power" from the wall. Transient power (well, ALL power to the signal amplifying parts) in an amp are provided by the power supply (transformer and capacitor bank) unless we're talking about OTL amps, but I you know I mean. Amps continuously draw power from the wall......like continuously topping off a small pool being filled by the ocean. The pool is the amp's power supply. The ocean is the power station.
I don't feel the "pool of electrons" analogy is correct, even for class A amps. The transfer of power is direct despite devices like caps and coils that can store energy and this also explains why everything that has to do with power delivery becomes audible, even fuses. In essence, werd's description is much closer to my actual experience and the "pool of electrons" analogy does not match up with what I actually hear and experience.
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It likely uses a slow blow so that it can tolerate the power in-rush when the amp is turned on from a cold state, while the power supply is being filled (to use my pool analogy again) and stabilizes.
That and a Soft start. Yes that too.
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I don't feel the "pool of electrons" analogy is correct, even for class A amps. The transfer of power is direct despite devices like caps and coils that can store energy and this also explains why everything that has to do with power delivery becomes audible, even fuses. In essence, werd's description is much closer to my actual experience and the "pool of electrons" analogy does not match up with what I actually hear and experience.
Well this condition is described right in my 14B manual. Knowing Bryston (to not resort to hyperbole) especially when describing safe operation in amps. Under power conditioning.
http://bryston.com/products/power_amps/14BSST-2.html
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I don't feel the "pool of electrons" analogy is correct, even for class A amps. The transfer of power is direct despite devices like caps and coils that can store energy and this also explains why everything that has to do with power delivery becomes audible, even fuses. In essence, werd's description is much closer to my actual experience and the "pool of electrons" analogy does not match up with what I actually hear and experience.
Pretty sure my analogy isn't far off the mark. The power doesn't go straight from the wall to an amp's output devices in any case I've ever seen. Perhaps the power supply "pool" is small or less efficient in some amps, so any time there's a significant depletion in electrons, it is noticeable (though not necessarily clipping the amp). Now, I'm not disregarding anyone's personal experience with what they hear and experience. I'm just trying to make sense of / clear up things a bit.
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There are peer-reviewed psychology studies on audio comparisons between components and/or gear? I didn't know that. Where are they?
Sensory data is sensory data. Doesn't matter who or what generates it. If you're really interested you can google "Sensory Data Accuracy", and get more info than you could possibly assimilate.
Doc
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Well this condition is described right in my 14B manual. Knowing Bryston (to not resort to hyperbole) especially when describing safe operation in amps. Under power conditioning.
http://bryston.com/products/power_amps/14BSST-2.html
Note that the 14B already has a MASSIVE power supply (which is essentially a power conditioner), including (I believe) 2 toroidal transformers. You'd likely benefit more from adding a dedicated line to your amp versus adding a Torus. When you need tons of power, you might not be refilling "the pool" fast enough. But man, you'd have to be driving some very tough speakers in a BIG room. Knowing Bryston, the amp would likely shut down before any type of power instability occurs (saving your amp and speakers).
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It likely uses a slow blow so that it can tolerate the power in-rush when the amp is turned on from a cold state, while the power supply is being filled (to use my pool analogy again) and stabilizes.
The turn-on inrush is enormous. We often have to put in a larger fuse than the maximum rating at full output power to get past the inrush. A soft start is another option but complicated the amp and usually requires a relay, just another thing that might fail down the road.
You can actually figure the inrush knowing the impedance of your wall socket and the primary resistance plus reflected secondary resistance of the transformer. When the caps are discharged they are virtually a short. The total resistance is just a few ohms in a large amp. In my OTL the total resistance is less than 5 ohms. Add an ohm for the wall and you have 120 volts/6 ohms= 20 amps. Note that the fuse resistance or 0.1 ohms will not affect the result on either inrush or playing where the current is about 2 amps max.
Several posts back John R warned us this is getting close to quarantine status again. I do think once again we are straying from the original topic. Like cables and power cords fuse listening is so subjective. Those who hear a difference don't want to hear from others that they don't.
Why the purveyors of these devices have surfaced I do not know. Do they sit around and think "well lets try this an see if it flies?" It certainly seems to be profit driven. They like to make up science to sell their wares. I do object to any statements that fly in the face of known electrical laws.
Perhaps Fred can get us back on track. My purpose here is to moderate and provide electrical information so the reader can decide for himself the scientific value of the claims being made. I cannot do much other than state the electrical facts to dispel the magic element that these products seem to trade upon. I hope it is helpful to know the values of these electrical parameters to put them in their proper light.
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Pretty sure my analogy isn't far off the mark. The power doesn't go straight from the wall to an amp's output devices in any case I've ever seen. Perhaps the power supply "pool" is small or less efficient in some amps, so any time there's a significant depletion in electrons, it is noticeable (though not necessarily clipping the amp). Now, I'm not disregarding anyone's personal experience with what they hear and experience. I'm just trying to make sense of / clear up things a bit.
Yah I know its a beaut :thumb:
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Well maintaining its safety feature I would want to see the fuse encased in a non-resonant material. Glass has
got to be the worst. How ever it allows visual inspection.
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Yah I know its a beaut :thumb:
And a brute. :thumb:
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Ceramic tubing is routinely used in Bussman, Littlefuse and others for their strength as they will not shatter when a fuse goes under heavy interrupt current. We use only ceramic, sand filled fuses for the tubes in our amplifiers. I believe we were the first to individually fuse tubes. I got a great education on fuses in the process and it appears the makers of these premium fuses have not done their homework. Have they even consulted amplifier makers on what the fuse needs to do?
For those who missed earlier posts. When a fuse interrupts in a DC circuit (tube fuse) the interrupting causes the element to turn to plasma which continues to conduct long after it should. This extended time causes damage to the circuit. Ceramic fuses are often filled with sand which helps prevent the plasma from forming.
My original objection to tuning fuses is that while they are ceramic they are not sand filled. To make matters worse they enclose the element in Teflon sleeve which increases the plasma problem making these totally unsuitable for DC applications.
I find it hard to believe that a fuse resonates at all. If some readers want to believe it does and the ceramic makes things sound better they are welcome to that belief as I hope I am welcome to mine.
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Ceramic tubing is routinely used in Bussman, Littlefuse and others for their strength as they will not shatter when a fuse goes under heavy interrupt current. We use only ceramic, sand filled fuses for the tubes in our amplifiers. I believe we were the first to individually fuse tubes. I got a great education on fuses in the process and it appears the makers of these premium fuses have not done their homework. Have they even consulted amplifier makers on what the fuse needs to do?
For those who missed earlier posts. When a fuse interrupts in a DC circuit (tube fuse) the interrupting causes the element to turn to plasma which continues to conduct long after it should. This extended time causes damage to the circuit. Ceramic fuses are often filled with sand which helps prevent the plasma from forming.
My original objection to tuning fuses is that while they are ceramic they are not sand filled. To make matters worse they enclose the element in Teflon sleeve which increases the plasma problem making these totally unsuitable for DC applications.
I find it hard to believe that a fuse resonates at all. If some readers want to believe it does and the ceramic makes things sound better they are welcome to that belief as I hope I am welcome to mine.
AC from the wall its going to resonate. Even if the voltage drop is in the millivolts across the fuse. DC its less of an issue.
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Pretty sure my analogy isn't far off the mark. The power doesn't go straight from the wall to an amp's output devices in any case I've ever seen. Perhaps the power supply "pool" is small or less efficient in some amps, so any time there's a significant depletion in electrons, it is noticeable (though not necessarily clipping the amp). Now, I'm not disregarding anyone's personal experience with what they hear and experience. I'm just trying to make sense of / clear up things a bit.
The reason I think the "pool" analogy doesn't work is because if it were true then anything upstream of a cap bank or ps filter section would then be inaudible, and in my experience this isn't the case... It is true that the signal (in this case 60 Hz sine wave), may have noise attenuated, but it isn't fully "wiped clean" by these attempts at isolation. I don't believe it's really possible to fully isolate a component in the way the pool analogy leads one to believe, and I think power is delivered in a more direct fashion. I think of the voltage as force that continually moves electrons and the pool (cap or coil) is more like those long lines at airport security and the voltage the rate at which people are allowed through the line. So, I'm not saying energy is not stored and released, that would be contrary to some rather obvious electrical principles, but that the though of a pool of electrons that truly isolates upstream from downstream components isn't what is really happening.
Good discussion though, I think getting a good intuitive feel for what's happening is very helpful and analogies can serve to do that. But electrons are not exactly like water and water pressure is not exactly like voltage and for the analogy to be truly helpful we need to understand the limits of what's really applicable in the analogy.
AC from the wall its going to resonate. Even if the voltage drop is in the millivolts across the fuse. DC its less of an issue.
I fully agree, it's in the nature of the signal for the AC to cause resonances. One place I can clearly see and feel this happening is in rectifier tubes. Some of them buzz a little bit. So do some transformers. So, in these devices alternating current is causing mechanical resonance, and it could certainly be the case with fuses too. Audio is all about vibration and resonance. :green:
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As moderator it is my duty to lock this topic temporarily. Having a squabble as to whether people can hear fuses and reasons for why they can and why they can't itn't going to be productive.
Perhaps Fastfred can start another post where we can discuss where to go with this one. The only good thing I have learned from this is that this topic of fuses gets a lot of attention, some of it from others in the industry (industry participants) who are using our site to promote their products.