AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: AllanS on 30 Jun 2023, 11:48 am
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Any experience with and/or recommended front wall diffusion products? In addition to floor standing or wall mounted products either side of the TV I’d like to consider something to place in front of the TV when listening.
I currently have GIK impression series corner traps/diffusers behind the M4s (and on the rear wall) but have been advised to add front wall diffusion to improve soundstage.
Also has anyone experimented with sonotubes for diffusion?
Thank you.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254219)
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I use the ATS diffusers with good results.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239359)
Don P
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I use the ATS diffusers with good results.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239359)
Don P
Does the diffusers help with the TV being reflective?
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Any experience with and/or recommended front wall diffusion products? In addition to floor standing or wall mounted products either side of the TV I’d like to consider something to place in front of the TV when listening.
I currently have GIK impression series corner traps/diffusers behind the M4s (and on the rear wall) but have been advised to add front wall diffusion to improve soundstage.
Also has anyone experimented with sonotubes for diffusion?
Thank you.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254219)
I'm thinking these since they are light and can be moved easily.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-gridfusor/
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Does the diffusers help with the TV being reflective?
Yes. I had absorption first and felt the sound was a little dead. I much prefer diffusion. The 86” tv is flat against the wall which helps. It’s not perfect but but I’m really happy with the sound overall.
Don P
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Any experience with and/or recommended front wall diffusion products? In addition to floor standing or wall mounted products either side of the TV I’d like to consider something to place in front of the TV when listening.
I currently have GIK impression series corner traps/diffusers behind the M4s (and on the rear wall) but have been advised to add front wall diffusion to improve soundstage.
Also has anyone experimented with sonotubes for diffusion?
Thank you.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254219)
1st reflection point on each side wall is needed, and 2 panels more on your front wall. 24 x 48 2" thick absorbers with diffraction built-in beside each window, GIK sells them, and you have the best of both worlds. and get some heavy curtains for the windows that will most certainly help imaging in the center, I use ASC 8" x 48" 3 of them behind my blinds, right, dead center, and left, you don't see them with the curtains. A few pictures from my old system with Quads and bamboo curtains and the 3 panels and one current with my Spatial M3 Shappries and curtains the panels are set on the window seal behind my blinds and I have the blinds tilted somewhat upward and they work then as diffraction. I tried them facing down and imaging and tone were negatively impacted believe it or not. I had more panels and the 1st reflection points at one time but the room looked good but like a studio with nothing but panels, so I decided to make the room look more warm and inviting so I had large canvas panels made for me. These were one of a kind like the Beatles alt. Cover for Sgt. Pepper and the Elvis and on the other side wall is another large 48x60" canvas print and another 8"x48" ASC panels so to match the wall you see in the picture is all the same on the left wall that you do not see. So both sides are identical thus perfectly balanced sound from both speakers. 3 pictures in the same room over the years, the last one was perhaps the best sonics but I wanted a more inviting look so the Cavans prints started.
My room has no back wall due to it being an open loft to the family room below. So the wall the speaker sees is 30 or more feet away.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254223)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254224)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254253)
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RPG BAD Arc panels in front
https://www.rpgacoustic.com/product/bad-arc/ (https://www.rpgacoustic.com/product/bad-arc/)
I also cover the TV.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239549)
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RPG BAD Arc panels in front
https://www.rpgacoustic.com/product/bad-arc/ (https://www.rpgacoustic.com/product/bad-arc/)
I also cover the TV.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239549)
Is just the 1 panel on either side of the tv enough for diffusion?
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Any experience with and/or recommended front wall diffusion products?
Before buying more diffusion/absorption products I suggest reading the Stereophile article:
NWAA Labs: Measurement Beyond The Atomic Level
https://www.stereophile.com/content/nwaa-labs-measurement-beyond-atomic-level (https://www.stereophile.com/content/nwaa-labs-measurement-beyond-atomic-level)
Absorption is the most common treatment used in listening rooms. The measurement of absorption was first described by Wallace Sabine, who compared the reverberation times of a room with and without absorption. This difference was then converted to units of absorption using this formula:
A = 0.9210(V*d/c)
where
A = equivalent absorption area in m2,
V = volume of reverberation room in m,
c = speed of sound at ambient temperature and humidity in m/s,
and d = decay rate in dB/s.
Most of what we think we know about absorption is wrong! Absorption calculations in use today can err by as much as 85%. The biggest error concerns how important the area of absorption is in the calculation of how much absorption is needed.
"DeGrandis has done some unbelievable research in the field of diffusion," Ron said. "He's come up with a computer program that allows him to simulate what happens to a design when he changes parameters. "We've done the same research with diffusion, where shape is again key. I'm sorry, but almost 90% of what's out there, theory-wise, is BS. For example, you can't use a block's length in a 'skyline-style' diffuser to determine the frequency range that it affects."
So what does work?
PolyFlex diffusers. The only drawbacks I see is they are ugly and too cheap. An acoustically transparent box around them fixes the ugly part, then they are no more intrusive as absorbing or scatter panels that may or may not work. The articles and case studies on the AV Room Service site is a crash course on state-of-the-art acoustic science.
https://avroomservice.com/ (https://avroomservice.com/)
(https://avroomservice.com/wp-content/uploads/brizy/imgs/PloxFlex-gray-409x307x89x0x246x307x1655153291.jpg) (https://avroomservice.com/wp-content/uploads/brizy/imgs/PloxFlex-clear-232x309x7x0x225x309x1655153291.jpg)
The Bad Arc products look interesting and use the same principal as the PolyFlex diffusers.
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Is just the 1 panel on either side of the tv enough for diffusion?
Of course every room is different, so who knows. Here is what I used prior. I don't think the pretty face panels do much for this other brand acoustically. They also absorb, but I removed them and put much bigger and thicker traps in the rear of the room. I originally bought the BAD Arcs to cover the TV as they're light and easy to move in and out of place, but I liked them better directly behind the speakers when I changed to the SRA Scuttle rack.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254239)
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Great options. Many thanks! With options comes the need to better understand needs. The rabbit holes just get deeper and deeper. At least they're interesting.
I'm thinking these since they are light and can be moved easily.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-gridfusor/
Perfect for sitting in front of the TV
Before buying more diffusion/absorption products I suggest reading the Stereophile article:
NWAA Labs: Measurement Beyond The Atomic Level
https://www.stereophile.com/content/nwaa-labs-measurement-beyond-atomic-level (https://www.stereophile.com/content/nwaa-labs-measurement-beyond-atomic-level)
PolyFlex diffusers. The only drawbacks I see is they are ugly and too cheap.
https://avroomservice.com/ (https://avroomservice.com/)
The Bad Arc products look interesting and use the same principal as the PolyFlex diffusers.
I read but forgot about the Stereophile article and related AVS content. Fascinating stuff and a necessary reread.
GIK also has something similar in appearance to the BAD Arc product.
Mr Big has the fix for the ugly part.
1st reflection point on each side wall is needed, and 2 panels more on your front wall. 24 x 48 2" thick absorbers with diffraction built-in beside each window, GIK sells them, and you have the best of both worlds. and get some heavy curtains for the windows that will most certainly help imaging in the center, I use ASC 8" x 48" 3 of them behind my blinds, right, dead center, and left, you don't see them with the curtains.
Hiding the treatments behind curtains is brilliant. The wife will appreciate it. If effective in my space I also appreciate the narrower ASC option.
I should have used a wider view image. The space is asymmetric. RH wall has GIK panels. I also have similar freestanding panels but don't recall if I've ever concentrated on the sound stage with them in place either side of the rack.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254244)
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Before buying more diffusion/absorption products I suggest reading the Stereophile article:
NWAA Labs: Measurement Beyond The Atomic Level
https://www.stereophile.com/content/nwaa-labs-measurement-beyond-atomic-level (https://www.stereophile.com/content/nwaa-labs-measurement-beyond-atomic-level)
Absorption is the most common treatment used in listening rooms. The measurement of absorption was first described by Wallace Sabine, who compared the reverberation times of a room with and without absorption. This difference was then converted to units of absorption using this formula:
A = 0.9210(V*d/c)
where
A = equivalent absorption area in m2,
V = volume of reverberation room in m,
c = speed of sound at ambient temperature and humidity in m/s,
and d = decay rate in dB/s.
Most of what we think we know about absorption is wrong! Absorption calculations in use today can err by as much as 85%. The biggest error concerns how important the area of absorption is in the calculation of how much absorption is needed.
"DeGrandis has done some unbelievable research in the field of diffusion," Ron said. "He's come up with a computer program that allows him to simulate what happens to a design when he changes parameters. "We've done the same research with diffusion, where shape is again key. I'm sorry, but almost 90% of what's out there, theory-wise, is BS. For example, you can't use a block's length in a 'skyline-style' diffuser to determine the frequency range that it affects."
So what does work?
PolyFlex diffusers. The only drawbacks I see is they are ugly and too cheap. An acoustically transparent box around them fixes the ugly part, then they are no more intrusive as absorbing or scatter panels that may or may not work. The articles and case studies on the AV Room Service site is a crash course on state-of-the-art acoustic science.
https://avroomservice.com/ (https://avroomservice.com/)
(https://avroomservice.com/wp-content/uploads/brizy/imgs/PloxFlex-gray-409x307x89x0x246x307x1655153291.jpg) (https://avroomservice.com/wp-content/uploads/brizy/imgs/PloxFlex-clear-232x309x7x0x225x309x1655153291.jpg)
The Bad Arc products look interesting and use the same principal as the PolyFlex diffusers.
I agree that curved (constant-radius) diffusor might be the best solution, as you're not interrupting the transient's important to sound imaging. I just bought a couple of different room treatment options. ASC tubes and Acoustic Geometry panels for the first reflection. Of course I didn't bother to match any of the colors :) I haven't fired the system up yet. So yeah diffusion behind the speakers might be the best solution.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254294)
A great video on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI098eNsmuY
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254295)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254300)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254301)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254300)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254301)
Thank you. I only have the curved panel next to the GIK for comparison. I'm on this kick of not running my air this year for whatever reason that I haven't been listening in a couple weeks. Been 80ish in the house :)
Well I decided to turn my air on at least so I can try these panels out this evening.
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I agree that curved (constant-radius) diffusor might be the best solution, as you're not interrupting the transient's important to sound imaging. I just bought a couple of different room treatment options. ASC tubes and Acoustic Geometry panels for the first reflection.
I’ll be interested to hear your impressions. Thanks for the link.
I know there’s a lot of good science behind all this but it sure does feel like treatments is as much of a crap shoot as anything else in this hobby.
Of course I figured out today that the soundstage problem I thought was room asymmetry is more likely a hearing problem. So I’m not sure treatments will resolve my issue - at least not room treatments.
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OK guys / AllanS. I'm going to start with the crazy talk first, then explain what I'm hearing. As far as the Acoustic Geometry curved diffusors go, there's no option. You have to have these for your first reflections. When I first started to listen to music tonight, I was immediately shocked at how different it sounded. It's probably the real first time hearing the Spatials on their own if you will. The tone was noticeably better? consistent for absolute. I was playing vinyl for the first hour or two, then switched to Cd's. Side note, the Jc5 and even the A21+ sounds quite a bit better after listening for two - three hours. One of the biggest things is that the panels completely disappear, and they take some of the wall with it. I know that sounds weird but what you normally hear from the extreme sides of your head just flat out mostly gone. John Calder from the manufacturers video was not lying about imaging. For the first time I've had the A21-JC my image is tighter, more focused, and very very well grounded. Before it was always vague and floaty if you will. I'm hearing detail like I've never heard mostly because you're not getting the delayed sound and more importantly the tonal differences that come along. These will give you an honest look of what your system actually sounds like. Guys this is not subtle. It's almost like the first time hearing your Spatials and being floored at how much less they interact with the room. These ADD to the same effect. Full disclosure. I do have my speakers closer together 6 foot apart to be exact. But I've had these for a year and a half and I know very well what they sound like in this room. So the soundstage did get narrower (focused) but if you close your eye's it seems very appropriate. You definitely get a better sense of the venue, and venue boundaries. Tomorrow after work, I'm spreading my speakers further to widen the soundstage a tad. A video from The Absolute Sound that they did a couple weeks ago, Robert Harley stated that if there was only one thing you did to your room this should be it. Man he was so spot on, and maybe even understated. What it did for the image, detail (by getting your room out of the way, and the tone of the presentation) the panel completely I mean completely disappear. It's staggering. You know we buy new cables and such to try and improve the soundstage and detail, and it never seems to get you there. This is like buying a component for you rig that actually achieves it. I'm so impressed that I'm contacting the company and complimenting them on such a wonderful product. This is major. I do still have bass issues, but I'm determined to get it figured out. btw the fabric I chose looks like it's right out of the 60's :) us old guys can appreciate that. This also fixed the fact that my room is less than ideals like most of us. What a great product.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254330)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254331)
Guys this is a very big improvement.
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I'm going to start with the crazy talk…
If disappearing walls and vague floaty image is crazy talk then we’re speaking the same language.
I asked my (incredibly patient) wife to sit and sample a few sound stage placement test tracks yesterday and point to where she was hearing stuff come from. (Native DSD “Audiophile Speaker Set-Up” tracks 58-76)
https://www.nativedsd.com/product/2xhdft1095-audiophile-speaker-setup/ (https://www.nativedsd.com/product/2xhdft1095-audiophile-speaker-setup/). Reaching in vague directions she was unable to pin point where voices and test sounds were coming from (ringing bell and clapper). For the most part vague and floaty describe very well what we both heard in these test tracks and I’ve heard in others.
My biggest problem was pretty much everything that was supposed to emanate from the right side of the stage barely budged off center. But even everything that was clearly left of center was not well or consistently located. The voice, bell, and clapper, though physically located in the same place, emanated from different but indistinct locations within the sound stage. But even these were inconsistent. The voice location was vaguest. The bell and clapper locations were more distinct but very different. I wouldn’t describe any of this as floaty but I have plenty of other examples where the image literally floats left to right as though the performer is wandering.
I’m sure the reasons for all this is a mess of physics, psychoacoustics, and hearing loss but it’s all quite distracting and often times has me wondering if cans is the “better” option. (Steve Guttenberg “What happens when AUDIOPHILES take the ROOM out of the equation?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eCbJfLSYGg&t=24s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eCbJfLSYGg&t=24s)
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As far as the Acoustic Geometry curved diffusors go, there's no option.
Guys this is a very big improvement.
Thank you. I’ve got more homework to do but these will get a serious look.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254334)
In my narrow room I've experimented quite a bit and I've decided on small low bass traps in the front corners and lower front wall with a combination diffusion/absorption in the upper corners and all diffusion on the front wall.
My system is in the basement so looks does not matter so much for me.
I found adding panels at the first reflection point did not change the sound so removed them. Probably because my speakers are only about one and a half feet from the side walls and since these are open baffle they do not radiate much sound to the side. Also the AMT tweeters have a waveguide which limits extreme lateral dispersion.
I do have combination absorption/diffusion panels at the second reflection points.
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OK guys / AllanS. I'm going to start with the crazy talk first, then explain what I'm hearing. As far as the Acoustic Geometry curved diffusors go, there's no option. You have to have these for your first reflections. When I first started to listen to music tonight, I was immediately shocked at how different it sounded. It's probably the real first time hearing the Spatials on their own if you will. The tone was noticeably better? consistent for absolute. I was playing vinyl for the first hour or two, then switched to Cd's. Side note, the Jc5 and even the A21+ sounds quite a bit better after listening for two - three hours. One of the biggest things is that the panels completely disappear, and they take some of the wall with it. I know that sounds weird but what you normally hear from the extreme sides of your head just flat out mostly gone. John Calder from the manufacturers video was not lying about imaging. For the first time I've had the A21-JC my image is tighter, more focused, and very very well grounded. Before it was always vague and floaty if you will. I'm hearing detail like I've never heard mostly because you're not getting the delayed sound and more importantly the tonal differences that come along. These will give you an honest look of what your system actually sounds like. Guys this is not subtle. It's almost like the first time hearing your Spatials and being floored at how much less they interact with the room. These ADD to the same effect. Full disclosure. I do have my speakers closer together 6 foot apart to be exact. But I've had these for a year and a half and I know very well what they sound like in this room. So the soundstage did get narrower (focused) but if you close your eye's it seems very appropriate. You definitely get a better sense of the venue, and venue boundaries. Tomorrow after work, I'm spreading my speakers further to widen the soundstage a tad. A video from The Absolute Sound that they did a couple weeks ago, Robert Harley stated that if there was only one thing you did to your room this should be it. Man he was so spot on, and maybe even understated. What it did for the image, detail (by getting your room out of the way, and the tone of the presentation) the panel completely I mean completely disappear. It's staggering. You know we buy new cables and such to try and improve the soundstage and detail, and it never seems to get you there. This is like buying a component for you rig that actually achieves it. I'm so impressed that I'm contacting the company and complimenting them on such a wonderful product. This is major. I do still have bass issues, but I'm determined to get it figured out. btw the fabric I chose looks like it's right out of the 60's :) us old guys can appreciate that. This also fixed the fact that my room is less than ideals like most of us. What a great product.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254330)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254331)
Guys this is a very big improvement.
Where did you buy them?
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Where did you buy them?
https://acousticgeometry.com/products/medium-curve-diffusor/ (https://acousticgeometry.com/products/medium-curve-diffusor/)
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Thank you TomS
Here's a couple photo's of the panels. The build quality is very good. No way we could build one this well diy, not the metal parts and the bass membrane. The membrane has slack in it so it can absorb / stop wave movement. A thousand dollars is a lot of money, but I'm telling you guys, This is every bit of an upgrade if you will to your system. They really really compliment what the Spatials already do so damn well. On a scale of one to ten, this thing is an 11 :) They do supply all the hardware necessary to hang them on your wall.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254346)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254347)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254348)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254334)
In my narrow room I've experimented quite a bit and I've decided on small low bass traps in the front corners and lower front wall with a combination diffusion/absorption in the upper corners and all diffusion on the front wall.
My system is in the basement so looks does not matter so much for me.
I found adding panels at the first reflection point did not change the sound so removed them. Probably because my speakers are only about one and a half feet from the side walls and since these are open baffle they do not radiate much sound to the side. Also the AMT tweeters have a waveguide which limits extreme lateral dispersion.
I do have combination absorption/diffusion panels at the second reflection points.
No wrong answer mrotino332. Looks like you have tackled the problem well.
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Thank you TomS
Here's a couple photo's of the panels. The build quality is very good…
The pics certainly help understand pricing. Thank you. There are look a likes out there but these things have a lot more going on than a cylindrical surface. You might spend half as much but get much less in return.
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If disappearing walls and vague floaty image is crazy talk then we’re speaking the same language.
I asked my (incredibly patient) wife to sit and sample a few sound stage placement test tracks yesterday and point to where she was hearing stuff come from. (Native DSD “Audiophile Speaker Set-Up” tracks 58-76)
https://www.nativedsd.com/product/2xhdft1095-audiophile-speaker-setup/ (https://www.nativedsd.com/product/2xhdft1095-audiophile-speaker-setup/). Reaching in vague directions she was unable to pin point where voices and test sounds were coming from (ringing bell and clapper). For the most part vague and floaty describe very well what we both heard in these test tracks and I’ve heard in others.
My biggest problem was pretty much everything that was supposed to emanate from the right side of the stage barely budged off center. But even everything that was clearly left of center was not well or consistently located. The voice, bell, and clapper, though physically located in the same place, emanated from different but indistinct locations within the sound stage. But even these were inconsistent. The voice location was vaguest. The bell and clapper locations were more distinct but very different. I wouldn’t describe any of this as floaty but I have plenty of other examples where the image literally floats left to right as though the performer is wandering.
I’m sure the reasons for all this is a mess of physics, psychoacoustics, and hearing loss but it’s all quite distracting and often times has me wondering if cans is the “better” option. (Steve Guttenberg “What happens when AUDIOPHILES take the ROOM out of the equation?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eCbJfLSYGg&t=24s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eCbJfLSYGg&t=24s)
That is so cool that your wife helped and it really can be super helpful having a different pair of ears. Maybe even one that's not so much into audio like we are? can be very telling. Dude I hear you on the image being just somewhere in the middle-ish ish. I watched the Steve Guttenberg video. These panels plus why we even went with open baffle will challenge that all day. AllanS I don't want to beat a dead horse :) it's only been one day haha. I just dumped 10k into my front end and it really was not much better? It improved, and I could hear the potential. I've moved my speakers probably 25 times? trying to improve what I'm hearing now. I was thinking of the easiest way to describe what the AG panels have done. 1-It's almost like the side walls have been removed from your room. 2- The only sound left is whats coming out of your soundstage. 3-It gave a solid foundation of the performers. 4-It tonally sounds right.5-Detail like you have never heard do to blurring, miss information tonally. I'm still in shock. btw please follow The Absolute Sounds YT channel. Tom Martin is hands down the most experienced audio guy out there. Very very helpful for new to seasoned audio heads.
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Well guys, still not running my air for the most part, and not listening to my system much at all. One of the crazy things about our hobby/music passion is that our minds can adapt almost instantly, and it can take a minute to figure out whats even happening (I'm still learning a ton) It's something when we hear a piece of gear that blows us away, and the next time we listen we say "It's pretty decent" :) Now that I have listened to my system with the side diffusors a few times, and my brain has adjusted, the whole tweeter being tilted up has gotten much worse. I fired it up a couple days ago and was like why the heck is even vinyl sounding brighter. So I went to CD's after a bit and it was basically unlistenable. Then is dawned on me (for a lack of a better way to put it) that most of the upper frequency was coming from the front wall and the ceiling. It's been like this the whole time, but I never heard it sound so pronounced until eliminating the sidewalls. I actually laid down on the floor and listened to the ceiling reflection for a few minutes :) no bass though......So yeah the moral of the story is that only when we start eliminating problem area's and letting our ears/mind adjust, that we can really understand what the heck is going on. One thing also is that when you have one portion of the frequency tilted up, it can really really push the others further back in the presentation quite major. Man I have been to quick to really judge the M6 and even some of the gear I have purchased (mostly cables) I know people have been on top of this and I would absolutely tell anyone, PLEASE do not judge equipment until you have a proper set up room. Better late than never for myself. I've only been in the hobby a few years and still consider myself a newbie for sure, but have learned a ton at the same time. I did order a small curved diffusor for the front wall maybe ten days ago, so it should be here this week? I'm almost positive that I'll have to deal with the first reflection on the ceiling also. I'm very excited to hear the Spatials when I get this right as I have total faith in them. A long wright up but just want to try to help someone down the road. One quick observation is that the speaker being tilted back, the tweeter is aiming to the ceiling :)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254738)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254739)
I have widened the speakers and have moved the subs to the inside to try to get them away from boundaries. I tiled the subs back to try and get some of the bass wave to come my way before doing something else. Tilting the subs back, they remind me of the head crab things in Half Life :)
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PLEASE do not judge equipment until you have a proper set up room.
There are those around here and other forums who constantly pound this message but I'm not so sure we're very good listeners. We want the shiny new toys and expect profound improvement. When we don't hear those improvements we lie to ourselves or lean on unreliable auditory memory to pass judgement.
I'm also pretty new to the depths and details about what "good" sound requires. Exactly how important the room is to what we hear is finally sinking in. Behind speakers it's probably the second biggest influence on overall sound but the least understood. Not new and shiny or sexy but big enough, as you suggest, to mask pretty much any improvement we're expecting from the gear.
The past couple of weeks I've been leaning on MATT https://www.acousticsciences.com/musical-articulation-test-tones-matt/ (https://www.acousticsciences.com/musical-articulation-test-tones-matt/) and REW https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ (https://www.roomeqwizard.com/) to measure and understand room effects. I highly recommend both.
Another highly valued resource is Audio Check https://www.audiocheck.net/ (https://www.audiocheck.net/). MATT can be found at Audio Check along with plenty of other helpful auditory room analysis tools. Native DSD Audiophile Hi-Res System Test and Speaker Set Up are also excellent sources to check your system performance against well documented references.
I'd suggest starting with MATT. Simply listen to the test (28 - 780 - 28 Hz sweep) through cans for reference and compare to playback through your speakers to hear room effects. If you can, record your room for playback comparison. As shown in the attached comparison (listening positions 1 and 2) you can both hear and see how your room responds. It's pretty amazing and depressing but it seems to lay bare why and how our rooms play such a critical role. Unlike the unreliable and ill informed A/B ish comparisons we're typically limited to the MATT test results are obvious, repeatable, and easily comparable. The LP1 resonances were enough to rattle the walls and create some distortion that I feared would damage the speakers. For reference I had the volume set for the MATT baseline file to play at 85dB peak at LP1 which is 80" from the baffle centers at floor level.
Relative to the cost of the gear, a couple of hundred for a mic (UMIK-1 recommended for REW) and stand and modest donations to Audio Check and REW are easy investments. I'm not sure where all this is going to lead but I'm not making any gear changes until the room is a good as it can be within my budget. That may require selling off some gear to pay for more and better treatments.
For anyone just getting started please, please, please, make sure the second line item in your budget is treatments. And don't blindly throw treatments at the room and call it done. The treatments I have show measurable improvements in REW but I have a long way to go before the room is good. And the gear can only be as good as the room so don't expect miracles.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254748)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254749)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254750)
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There are those around here and other forums who constantly pound this message but I'm not so sure we're very good listeners. We want the shiny new toys and expect profound improvement. When we don't hear those improvements we lie to ourselves or lean on unreliable auditory memory to pass judgement.
I'm also pretty new to the depths and details about what "good" sound requires. Exactly how important the room is to what we hear is finally sinking in. Behind speakers it's probably the second biggest influence on overall sound but the least understood. Not new and shiny or sexy but big enough, as you suggest, to mask pretty much any improvement we're expecting from the gear.
The past couple of weeks I've been leaning on MATT https://www.acousticsciences.com/musical-articulation-test-tones-matt/ (https://www.acousticsciences.com/musical-articulation-test-tones-matt/) and REW https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ (https://www.roomeqwizard.com/) to measure and understand room effects. I highly recommend both.
Another highly valued resource is Audio Check https://www.audiocheck.net/ (https://www.audiocheck.net/). MATT can be found at Audio Check along with plenty of other helpful auditory room analysis tools. Native DSD Audiophile Hi-Res System Test and Speaker Set Up are also excellent sources to check your system performance against well documented references.
I'd suggest starting with MATT. Simply listen to the test (28 - 780 - 28 Hz sweep) through cans for reference and compare to playback through your speakers to hear room effects. If you can, record your room for playback comparison. As shown in the attached comparison (listening positions 1 and 2) you can both hear and see how your room responds. It's pretty amazing and depressing but it seems to lay bare why and how our rooms play such a critical role. Unlike the unreliable and ill informed A/B ish comparisons we're typically limited to the MATT test results are obvious, repeatable, and easily comparable. The LP1 resonances were enough to rattle the walls and create some distortion that I feared would damage the speakers. For reference I had the volume set for the MATT baseline file to play at 85dB peak at LP1 which is 80" from the baffle centers at floor level.
Relative to the cost of the gear, a couple of hundred for a mic (UMIK-1 recommended for REW) and stand and modest donations to Audio Check and REW are easy investments. I'm not sure where all this is going to lead but I'm not making any gear changes until the room is a good as it can be within my budget. That may require selling off some gear to pay for more and better treatments.
For anyone just getting started please, please, please, make sure the second line item in your budget is treatments. And don't blindly throw treatments at the room and call it done. The treatments I have show measurable improvements in REW but I have a long way to go before the room is good. And the gear can only be as good as the room so don't expect miracles.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254748)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254749)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254750)
There are those around here and other forums who constantly pound this message but I'm not so sure we're very good listeners. We want the shiny new toys and expect profound improvement. When we don't hear those improvements we lie to ourselves or lean on unreliable auditory memory to pass judgement.
I'm also pretty new to the depths and details about what "good" sound requires. Exactly how important the room is to what we hear is finally sinking in. Behind speakers it's probably the second biggest influence on overall sound but the least understood. Not new and shiny or sexy but big enough, as you suggest, to mask pretty much any improvement we're expecting from the gear.
The past couple of weeks I've been leaning on MATT https://www.acousticsciences.com/musical-articulation-test-tones-matt/ (https://www.acousticsciences.com/musical-articulation-test-tones-matt/) and REW https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ (https://www.roomeqwizard.com/) to measure and understand room effects. I highly recommend both.
Another highly valued resource is Audio Check https://www.audiocheck.net/ (https://www.audiocheck.net/). MATT can be found at Audio Check along with plenty of other helpful auditory room analysis tools. Native DSD Audiophile Hi-Res System Test and Speaker Set Up are also excellent sources to check your system performance against well documented references.
I'd suggest starting with MATT. Simply listen to the test (28 - 780 - 28 Hz sweep) through cans for reference and compare to playback through your speakers to hear room effects. If you can, record your room for playback comparison. As shown in the attached comparison (listening positions 1 and 2) you can both hear and see how your room responds. It's pretty amazing and depressing but it seems to lay bare why and how our rooms play such a critical role. Unlike the unreliable and ill informed A/B ish comparisons we're typically limited to the MATT test results are obvious, repeatable, and easily comparable. The LP1 resonances were enough to rattle the walls and create some distortion that I feared would damage the speakers. For reference I had the volume set for the MATT baseline file to play at 85dB peak at LP1 which is 80" from the baffle centers at floor level.
Relative to the cost of the gear, a couple of hundred for a mic (UMIK-1 recommended for REW) and stand and modest donations to Audio Check and REW are easy investments. I'm not sure where all this is going to lead but I'm not making any gear changes until the room is a good as it can be within my budget. That may require selling off some gear to pay for more and better treatments.
For anyone just getting started please, please, please, make sure the second line item in your budget is treatments. And don't blindly throw treatments at the room and call it done. The treatments I have show measurable improvements in REW but I have a long way to go before the room is good. And the gear can only be as good as the room so don't expect miracles.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254748)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254749)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=254750)
"anyone just getting started please, please, please, make sure the second line item in your budget is treatments. And don't blindly throw treatments at the room and call it done. The treatments I have show measurable improvements in REW but I have a long way to go before the room is good. And the gear can only be as good as the room so don't expect miracles."
This is so true. I can remove just a few panels or even the corner couch pillows I use in the floor's front corners and the sound can take an easy to hear change and it is not for the good. You want to hear your speakers and their reproduction, not your room as much as your speakers. I don't care about the brand or the cost, spend money on your room as you would spend on new gear, it will do more for your enjoyment of music.
Even several of these located around your speakers and corners would be a so much improvement and they look good also.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/product-category/impression-series/
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Well guys I finally got all my panels. The small curved one came in damaged, so they sent me another one. Just got the ceiling panels today. I had a nightmare getting the thing mounted. I did it by myself and of course I screwed it up the first time. I have to get four more drywall anchors after I failed the first time to mount the second one. I've been doing some research on upper frequency's on channels for mixing music and vocals. It's been a huge help and luckily these panels absorb some very problematic area's like 4k. Really 100 on up to 4k if not controlled can ruin the whole thing. I listened with the small curved diffusor and let me tell you, I have NEVER heard piano sound this good and detailed. Still had the shrill from the top end and the thin vocals, but I'm very confident that my system will sound proper? Looks like the weather is starting to cool down and I can finally start breaking this stuff in. I'll fire her up tomorrow when I get the other panel up. btw the panels really start to kick in at 250hz and above, so they preserve the important 100 area.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255590)(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255591)(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255592)
Could someone in the know educate us on how to orient these photo's please.
Frequency video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq1di2luMcs
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The range of the ceiling panels.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255594)
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Good to see you are making real progress getting your space dialed in. Looks like you’re going all in. One person ceiling work sounds frustrating. Something like a sheetrock lift would come in handy.
I’m still sorting out what I can afford to do and in what order.
Thanks for posting the vocal EQ vid. Good to know what to listen for.
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I saw something like these at a show, made by monks and costing as much as a trip to the Himalaya's. So I made them myself from a bunch of different sized dowels from Home Dopey, some wood stain and poly and ... here you go for about $100 or so and some time. Just a random pattern placement screing them into a piece of woon top and bottom. Works well on the wall behind my Apogees.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218647)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224481)
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I saw something like these at a show, made by monks and costing as much as a trip to the Himalaya's. So I made them myself from a bunch of different sized dowels from Home Dopey, some wood stain and poly and ... here you go for about $100 or so and some time. Just a random pattern placement screing them into a piece of woon top and bottom. Works well on the wall behind my Apogees.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218647)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224481)
Bob have you tried these at the first reflections on the side walls? Great diy project. I'm guessing these are great for scattering the sound? i.e diffusion.
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Bob have you tried these at the first reflections on the side walls? Great diy project. I'm guessing these are great for scattering the sound? i.e diffusion.
Yeah, it was a fun project. But I don't need them at first reflection points - not with Apogees. They don't spread like cone speakers.
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Good to see you are making real progress getting your space dialed in. Looks like you’re going all in. One person ceiling work sounds frustrating. Something like a sheetrock lift would come in handy.
I’m still sorting out what I can afford to do and in what order.
Thanks for posting the vocal EQ vid. Good to know what to listen for.
Allan a Sheetrock lift or similar would have been a life savor. The first one was the hardest to try and get square to the room. I installed the second panel today and it was a piece of cake now that I could use the first one as a guide. When I fire it up tonight, I'll probably see if I could have done without the front wall diffusion. I'll just have to see how it goes overall. Here is the system I used to mount the panels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ODpeYGvI7U
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Yeah, it was a fun project. But I don't need them at first reflection points - not with Apogees. They don't spread like cone speakers.
OH OK. Man I do love ob and planar speakers as you can really get away with side wall placement.
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I am updating my room. GIK impression series panels will arrive in a few weeks. I also wanted to update my upper corners tri-corner traps I purchased many years ago from room tune when they were in business. These are used in studios and are much larger so more corner area is treated. I've had my old panel just lying against the walls around my room after painting the walls, and I will not hang anything till my new GIKs arrive. I received these yesterday and hung them this morning. I put on some Jazz that I've been listening to over the past week with all my panels standing on ground level so I had gotten used to the sound. These larger corner panels really, really work as they say, It was hard to believe that the sound would be so positively impacted by just putting these 2 panels in the upper corner walls. Very well made they make other panels also from panels to larger corner hung bass traps. I purchased these at Sweetwater, and they were just great to work with, called me to thank me for my online purchase and ask if I had questions, shipped within 24 hours and sent me my tracking number, and best of all this was the best packing on panels I have ever seen or experienced.
Here is a link to them.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriCornerBge--primacoustic-cumulus-tri-corner-bass-trap-beige-2-pack
The Primacoustic Cumulus Broadband Ceiling Corner Trap is a triangular broadband acoustic corner trap that effectively absorbs sound from 125Hz and up. Designed to fit in corners where the walls and ceiling meet, the Cumulus takes advantage of the natural propagation of sound that occurs in all rooms. Sound waves follow the wall and ceiling planes and accumulate in the corners, a well-known hot spot in small recording rooms or theaters.
The Cumulus is amazingly compact. Each side is 24" in length and, when in place, creates a 12" deep air space cavity behind the panel that increases the bass absorption characteristics. Mounting Cumulus traps in a studio will generally yield a significant reduction in the problematic low-mid region while leaving the architectural design of the room virtually intact. Invisible mounting is achieved using spring-tensioned clasps and a single eye-screw. Mounting literally takes minutes and because of the reverse beveled edges, Cumulus traps flush mount 'seamlessly' into the room's esthetics. The 24" triangular Cumulus panel is made from high-density 6lb per cubic foot rigid fiberglass. The same material broadcasters and world-class studios have used for years to control room acoustics. The panel is fully encapsulated within a micromesh and employs resin-hardened edges. These panel treatments combine to ensure the minute glass fibers cannot escape and produce pleasing architecturally straight lines. The 2" thick panel is then covered in an acoustically transparent fabric.
The edges of the Cumulus trap are reversed beveled and form a wedge shape that naturally transitions from the walls and ceilings to create an elegant corner trap. When mounted, the 24" sides create an air cavity behind the panel with a depth of 12 inches. It can be determined, by using quarter wavelength calculations, that the air cavity the Cumulus creates will effectively attenuate frequencies down into the 125Hz region while the panel surface effectively absorbs high frequencies from 400Hz and up. This is what makes the Primacoustic Cumulus a broadband noise absorber.
Once in place, you will immediately notice a tighter more defined bottom end. All small rooms tend to suffer from excessive low-mids and this is exactly where the Cumulus can be most effective. Because the front panel is completely open, it also helps reduce flutter echo and standing waves.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Primacoustic
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255618)
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I am updating my room. GIK impression series panels will arrive in a few weeks. I also wanted to update my upper corners tri-corner traps I purchased many years ago from room tune when they were in business. These are used in studios and are much larger so more corner area is treated. I've had my old panel just lying against the walls around my room after painting the walls, and I will not hang anything till my new GIKs arrive. I received these yesterday and hung them this morning. I put on some Jazz that I've been listening to over the past week with all my panels standing on ground level so I had gotten used to the sound. These larger corner panels really, really work as they say, It was hard to believe that the sound would be so positively impacted by just putting these 2 panels in the upper corner walls. Very well made they make other panels also from panels to larger corner hung bass traps. I purchased these at Sweetwater, and they were just great to work with, called me to thank me for my online purchase and ask if I had questions, shipped within 24 hours and sent me my tracking number, and best of all this was the best packing on panels I have ever seen or experienced.
Here is a link to them.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriCornerBge--primacoustic-cumulus-tri-corner-bass-trap-beige-2-pack
The Primacoustic Cumulus Broadband Ceiling Corner Trap is a triangular broadband acoustic corner trap that effectively absorbs sound from 125Hz and up. Designed to fit in corners where the walls and ceiling meet, the Cumulus takes advantage of the natural propagation of sound that occurs in all rooms. Sound waves follow the wall and ceiling planes and accumulate in the corners, a well-known hot spot in small recording rooms or theaters.
The Cumulus is amazingly compact. Each side is 24" in length and, when in place, creates a 12" deep air space cavity behind the panel that increases the bass absorption characteristics. Mounting Cumulus traps in a studio will generally yield a significant reduction in the problematic low-mid region while leaving the architectural design of the room virtually intact. Invisible mounting is achieved using spring-tensioned clasps and a single eye-screw. Mounting literally takes minutes and because of the reverse beveled edges, Cumulus traps flush mount 'seamlessly' into the room's esthetics. The 24" triangular Cumulus panel is made from high-density 6lb per cubic foot rigid fiberglass. The same material broadcasters and world-class studios have used for years to control room acoustics. The panel is fully encapsulated within a micromesh and employs resin-hardened edges. These panel treatments combine to ensure the minute glass fibers cannot escape and produce pleasing architecturally straight lines. The 2" thick panel is then covered in an acoustically transparent fabric.
The edges of the Cumulus trap are reversed beveled and form a wedge shape that naturally transitions from the walls and ceilings to create an elegant corner trap. When mounted, the 24" sides create an air cavity behind the panel with a depth of 12 inches. It can be determined, by using quarter wavelength calculations, that the air cavity the Cumulus creates will effectively attenuate frequencies down into the 125Hz region while the panel surface effectively absorbs high frequencies from 400Hz and up. This is what makes the Primacoustic Cumulus a broadband noise absorber.
Once in place, you will immediately notice a tighter more defined bottom end. All small rooms tend to suffer from excessive low-mids and this is exactly where the Cumulus can be most effective. Because the front panel is completely open, it also helps reduce flutter echo and standing waves.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Primacoustic
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255618)
I see that Steve Guttenberg uses something similar. Taming those highs are so important especially us M100 guys :) Lower frequency's do really need that air gap as these have. Mids and highs I guess we can get away with having them flush to the surface.
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I see that Steve Guttenberg uses something similar. Taming those highs are so important especially us M100 guys :) Lower frequency's do really need that air gap as these have. Mids and highs I guess we can get away with having them flush to the surface.
These cover down to 100Hz! So they are truly a wide band and they work, as well as they should because these and their brand is used in professional studios. They are 2" thick.
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Well guys I have both ceiling panels up at the first reflection and it's made a world of difference. Of course my system sounds like it has the whole time, just getting what's coming out of the speakers mostly direct now. The crazy thing about room treatment is that when you don't have any or very little, the room reflections are pretty even, and only when you eliminate the first reflection on the sidewall that the ceiling is pretty much necessary imo. The speakers still have that tad forward highs, but that's just the way they are. I widened them to 7 feet and have the 15 degree tow in. Just going to leave them alone and just start listening to music.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255663)
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I was getting dizzy
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255668)
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I was getting dizzy
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255668)
Looks nice! I could not even think about trying the ceiling at 72.
If I might suggest. I would go with the upper wall corners on your front wall, they will make a vast sonic improvement a must-have IMO and most of all experience. I don't even have my new GIK impression panels up with just my past panels standing on the floor around the room. While they were better than nothing and helped, of course, it was when my upper ceiling panels arrived and I put them up that I could really catch what they did from the room acoustics and it was major. My past ones were room tune ones from 25 years ago and they were much smaller than my current ones that I posted here. $170.00 only for a pair.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255673)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255724)
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Looks nice! I could not even think about trying the ceiling at 72.
If I might suggest. I would go with the upper wall corners on your front wall, they will make a vast sonic improvement a must-have IMO and most of all experience. I don't even have my new GIK impression panels up with just my past panels standing on the floor around the room. While they were better than nothing and helped, of course, it was when my upper ceiling panels arrived and I put them up that I could really catch what they did from the room acoustics and it was major. My past ones were room tune ones from 25 years ago and they were much smaller than my current ones that I posted here. $170.00 only for a pair.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255673)
Charles Xavier Thank you for fixing the image. Mr Big I hear you. I'm 62 and the first one dang near took me out. I definitely getting these (the grey is back ordered) they do really well all the way to 4k, so it's a win win. I have 12 panels right now. I know that sounds like a lot. Only three of them are mounted, so I can remove some of the others if necessary. If you have ever listened to Dennis Foley, who really does know his stuff, it can require a lot of coverage. On a side note. I was listening to Steve Guttenberg and Herb Reichert. Man these guys are some of the best audio guys alive. They have so much depth and knowledge, and really do understand that listening to music if far more than just some of the gear we use. Made me appreciate what I have far more than I have been.
Great video with Dennis. His solutions are very expensive, so maybe more pro oriented, but the information is all the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ABushctZQ&t=1s
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Charles Xavier Thank you for fixing the image. Mr Big I hear you. I'm 62 and the first one dang near took me out. I definitely getting these (the grey is back ordered) they do really well all the way to 4k, so it's a win win. I have 12 panels right now. I know that sounds like a lot. Only three of them are mounted, so I can remove some of the others if necessary. If you have ever listened to Dennis Foley, who really does know his stuff, it can require a lot of coverage. On a side note. I was listening to Steve Guttenberg and Herb Reichert. Man these guys are some of the best audio guys alive. They have so much depth and knowledge, and really do understand that listening to music if far more than just some of the gear we use. Made me appreciate what I have far more than I have been.
Great video with Dennis. His solutions are very expensive, so maybe more pro oriented, but the information is all the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ABushctZQ&t=1s
Excellent and true!! I watch Dennis's videos all the time. Very informative, yes he focuses on studios but we audiophiles can learn from them and do the best we can within reason and budget. Where he is 100% is you have to use acoustic treatments and as many as you can afford, I say quantity (more) over the overpriced ones that can keep many from even trying them. Corners bass traps at $1300 each and you need 2 per corner can be off-setting but you can buy another brand like GIK for a couple of hundred only and they come in sets of 2.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-244-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/
or for a bit more.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/impression-series-corner-bass-trap/
Then several of the in the key areas around your room.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/impression-4inch-bass-trap-diffusor-absorber/
And your total cost would be as much as one or two corner panels for "audiophile" branded ones as I purchased years ago. No knock on them they worked but today some 15 years later you now have many alternatives. Like:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Primacoustic
https://www.primacoustic.com/series/broadway/
My feeling is if you are going to buy gear that is expensive no matter your budget it's still cash out of your pockets that invest in products that will bring out the best of the gear and most of all the speakers you have paid for. As I write this my M3's Shappires have never sounded better, with no brightness, but transparency, no bass bloat, buy impact, textured, tight and dynamics, vocals as real and warm as the recording allows. Horns, trumpets with a bite but also tone and color, and violins, sweet, bite, and the bowing rosin sound, are all there in a dynamic natural way. It sounds so good with the addition of the upper tri-corner panels I could leave everything as it is, but that looks ugly just sitting on the floor leaning against the walls so when my new ones arrive up they go on the walls, he told me this advise, if you cannot use a lot of panels have them from the bottom of your baseboard at least 20" from the base board, the sound builds up higher on the walls and that bounces off the ceiling so try to mitigate that bounce that reverbs around your room. I can hear it now that I am used to what I had before, it's a faint swell of the sound/reverb above my head but straight on in front of me is rock solid.
I must add this I have never seen a company as good as Sweetwater where I purchased my upper corner tri-panels. You talk about customer care, for my small order they called to thank me, give me their call back number if I had questions, shipped the next day, along with the tracking number, and when Fed-X dropped the box off I was shocked, the size of the box was twice the sizes of the product inside when I opened it the bubble wrap they used would and protected a small amplifier all that protection for 2 corner panels. They got my business moving forward.
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Got a question -- I have "natural diffusers" behind my speakers (built-in bookshelves), but in between the speakers is a 65" flat-screen TV. However, the TV is essentially hanging on the wall (actually a few inches from it). The front baffles of my speakers are 44 inches from the TV. The TV may not be an issue since it's basically part of the front wall. Nonetheless, I'm wondering if there's any benefit to hanging two 24x24 wood QRD diffusers over the TV??
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Got a question -- I have "natural diffusers" behind my speakers (built-in bookshelves), but in between the speakers is a 65" flat-screen TV. However, the TV is essentially hanging on the wall (actually a few inches from it). The front baffles of my speakers are 44 inches from the TV. The TV may not be an issue since it's basically part of the front wall. Nonetheless, I'm wondering if there's any benefit to hanging two 24x24 wood QRD diffusers over the TV??
The wall with a TV on it in-between your speakers is reflective. Same as if you had a window back there. I would at least cover it the TV, but then if you are OK with the sound then leave it as is. In the end it's what makes you happy and enjoyable. One reason I purchased my house was the upper loft the overlooked the family room below. I could now have a space for audio only with my TV system downstairs with its sound base connected to 3 subs. Better sounding than any sound bar though I don't the surround sound effect, but I do get dynamic full body sound. In the prior post here, there is a great video link take the time to watch it.
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This is what I have
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255716)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=255716)
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The 1st delivery of my new GIK panels arrived today, still waiting for one more box of the wider ones. They look great and are well built, no sloppy work. I finished putting them up today. They look good the room is very quiet, and the details and decay of tones and instruments are outstanding. I pulled my old bass traps, and I ordered newer ones that are tri-corner in design. So, without the Bass traps in the corners, the bass is much less dynamic and weighty. Which I knew to be the case having used my bass traps for 15 years and taken them in and out at times and they go back fast, having said that the bass is very clean and detailed, but the grunt dynamics are lessened. You could say more midrange centric. 2nd order arrived with the extra 4" impression panels and the lower corner demi-bas traps. Will try those or I may go back to the full-size bass traps depending on the impact on the overall sound.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=256283)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=256284)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=256285)
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Those are beautiful. Looks great on the wall!
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The 1st delivery of my new GIK panels arrived today, still waiting for one more box of the wider ones. They look great and are well built, no sloppy work. I finished putting them up today. They look good the room is very quiet, and the details and decay of tones and instruments are outstanding. I pulled my old bass traps and I order newer ones that are tri-corner in design. So, without the Bass traps in the corners, the bass is much less dynamic and weighty. Which I knew to be the case having used my bass traps for 15 years and taken them in and out at times and they go back fast, but having said that the bass is very clean and detailed, but the grunt dynamics are lessened. You could say more midrange centric.
Very nice setup!
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Hi Tom, I know this is an old post and pre-hurricane photo. But I’m curious what sound bar you were running on the wall there under the TV. In our new house I’ve got a bit of a space challenge for a center channel.
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Hi Tom, I know this is an old post and pre-hurricane photo. But I’m curious what sound bar you were running on the wall there under the TV. In our new house I’ve got a bit of a space challenge for a center channel.
It is a passive GoldenEar SuperCinema 3d Array XL
https://www.goldenear.com/on-wall-speakers/super-cinema-series/super-cinema-3d-array-xl (https://www.goldenear.com/on-wall-speakers/super-cinema-series/super-cinema-3d-array-xl)
It's sitting in storage doing nothing now, so if you're interested in one I could make a smokin' deal. Unfortunately, I don't have the box any longer.
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Hi Tom, I know this is an old post and pre-hurricane photo. But I’m curious what sound bar you were running on the wall there under the TV. In our new house I’ve got a bit of a space challenge for a center channel.
Kevin, sent you a PM
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The 1st delivery of my new GIK panels arrived today, still waiting for one more box of the wider ones. They look great and are well built, no sloppy work. I finished putting them up today. They look good the room is very quiet, and the details and decay of tones and instruments are outstanding. I pulled my old bass traps, and I ordered newer ones that are tri-corner in design. So, without the Bass traps in the corners, the bass is much less dynamic and weighty. Which I knew to be the case having used my bass traps for 15 years and taken them in and out at times and they go back fast, having said that the bass is very clean and detailed, but the grunt dynamics are lessened. You could say more midrange centric. 2nd order arrived with the extra 4" impression panels and the lower corner demi-bas traps. Will try those or I may go back to the full-size bass traps depending on the impact on the overall sound.
Really nice. I especially like how your gear is set up. Really clean. I've got the walnut X5s. Love the finish.
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Curious,
From the years I see diffusion as slats.cubes ect.,diffusion well depths ect.
Do these newer designs actually do true diffusion or is it just DECOR type of whatever.
Even books shifted out might be better.
I’m thinking just home decor patterns to make you believe that it’s actual diffusion.
I think my plants can do just as well,you tell me.
If the older diffusion products give true audio benefits,why do these decor designs give the same so called benefits.
EX:GIK
Semis. Like true marketing BS
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Does gik even come on here anymore.
Please enlighten me with different slat well depths,cubes,and then we have your so called diffusion patterns,
Appreciate the truth with diffusion.
Do your decor pattern do the same type of diffusion as slat/well diffusion.
We’re audiophiles and besides marketing tell the truth as all we really want is to Enjoy our music the best we can without BS.
Just Be Honest
Or Diffuse the Situation.
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Yes I’m a prick,
Bass traps you need mass and depth not 2’ width panels.
Bass frequencies are low and WIDE not like tweeters that are more pin pointed.
Sunami wave compared to a light house.
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Does gik even come on here anymore.
Please enlighten me with different slat well depths,cubes,and then we have your so called diffusion patterns,
Appreciate the truth with diffusion.
Do your decor pattern do the same type of diffusion as slat/well diffusion.
We’re audiophiles and besides marketing tell the truth as all we really want is to Enjoy our music the best we can without BS.
Just Be Honest
Or Diffuse the Situation.
I share your curiosity concerning various diffusion products. However, this is the Spatial Audio Circle and not the GIK Circle. Don’t you think it’s more appropriate to ask GIK in their own circle?
Respectfully,
Michael