AudioCircle
Industry Circles => LampizatOr => Topic started by: Slapshot on 16 Dec 2018, 12:52 am
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Going back to Axpona 2017,a Golden gate DAC has been a dream of mine. Virtually every single high end room there was using one, even the famous, Million Dollar Plus system that Von Schweikert put together. I was also fortunate enough to manage to have a couple private listening sessions with components I knew well, used with a Golden gate, to truly show me the brilliance of the DAC.
Skip forward to a bit over a month ago when I was finally able to purchase a mint condition GG, after having it sent to the factory for a full checkup and having the warranty reinstated. When the unit arrived in it's superb flight case, I quickly connected it up, and sat back to listen witha good audiophile friend who owns a Big7. Our initial, extended listening sessions the did not go well. The quality of bass and depth of bass suffered a real setback, and other elements of the sound were a bit muddied. My friend then suggested connecting the GG direct to my amplifier and using its built in volume control. I did so, although that was absolutely not the direction I wanted to go, but further listening clearly indicated that, my system simply sounds much better using the Golden gate directly into the amplifier and eliminating the preamp from the chain.
And, honestly that disappoints me in ways I can't entirely explain. I really, really have liked my preamp (and it's a respected, and not at all inexpensive preamp on it's own) but when using the Golden Gate direct, with the supplied "high end" tubes from Lampizator (the KR PX4 tubes and Emission Labs 5U4G ) there is simply significantly greater clarity, balance, solidity of bass, and overall sound. When the preamp is inserted back into the system it returns to being muddled and lacking dynamics. While its very clear that direct connection to the GG produces much better sound, and while that sound is very. very good, to excellent, it's not "great" and greatness should be possible.
Based upon that concern, I had access, through a friend, to a group of Golden Gate owners. Out of twenty people I reached out to, sixteen admitted that their systems produced superior sound when the Golden Gate was used with a complementary preamp that it synched well with, sonically. Across the board, those GG owners emphasized that a preamp that took the strengths of what the Golden Gate provided and enhanced those strengths was what was needed. However, the preamps they were using were EXTREMELY expensive, across the board.
I am hoping that some forum members here, who either own a Golden gate, or have significant experience with one, might be able to recommend preamps that will effectively work with, and enhance the Golden Gates output that are not astronomically priced. I would be looking at a maximum budget of $6k, for a used preamp.
Thank you for any expertise, recommendations or other assistance you can provide.
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I used a Don Sachs preamp to fine effect with my upgraded Big7. They're only around $3K for the best version Don can make. And Don's a class act as well. With my Big7, I used it direct with its built-in preamp for a long time after initially auditioning with a preamp in the chain and finding the no-preamp approach to be superior in clarity, etc. But after a while, I gave the little iFi iTube2 a try and found it actually improved soundstage depth, width, and dynamics. So, that set me on a path to try a bunch of preamps in the <$5K realm. The Don Sachs won.
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I have the Atlantic Plus with volume control and all the extras that can be added to it. While I'm extremely happy with it not using a preamp myself I will say the the only system I have heard in my room or anywhere else that I thought was as good was the Don Sach Pre amp and amp combo.
I guess I should have tried the Don Sach Pre with my Atlantic when it was here. Honestly I just don't long for anything more than what I hear now. Warmth and clarity together with a huge soundstage is what I really enjoy and that is what I'm getting now.
Another option might be a Don Sach amp with your dac. That may add what you are looking for without adding another component in the signal chain. They are very open and transparent but add a warmth that is very addictive.
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Thanks for your thoughts. I had read so many incredibly positive things about the Don Sachs preamp that I was considering it too. And then I read this, from a very respected forum member here:
"I've had owned couple of giant killer preamps in recent times - Linear Tube Audio MZ-2s and Don Sachs Model two preamp. I won't deny that
both of these two preamps are worth the hype. They are very musical and emotionally satisfying. But the moment, I had the Allnic in my system,
it took my music listening experience to a level leaving both LTA and Don Sachs preamp in dust. The difference was immediately noticeable. I
didn't even have to think for a second which one is better.
I think the fundamental improvment was the bass foundation, dynamics (both micro and macro), soundstage and neutrality/transparency. No other preamp
I've ever heard comes close to it's bass performance and dynamics. Recalling from memory, LTA may have comparable transparency but thats it. Everything
else falls short compare to Allnic."
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So, which model are we talking about here? It looks like there are several to choose from.
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System synergy is indeed key. I continue to recommend this preamp (http://www.musicaldesign.com/MC_Cham.html) as it has the unique ability to change between different types of tube families. 6sn7, 5687, 6922, 12au7, 6h30, etc. and also different circuits, Cathode follower, SRPP, etc. Each type has a particular gain, output impedance, and interaction with your system. You can also add or remove global feedback.
I recently replaced a PS Audio Directstream with a Lampizator Big 6. The preamp board that sounded best with the PS Audio did not mate well with the Lampizator. Rolled through a couple different boards and hit the magic with the 5687 board. Great flexibility.
The builder can customize it substantially per your request. I'd be happy to give you suggestions if you have one built.
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I've had an Allnic in my system in the past and have heard 3-4 of their different models, I personally prefer transformer based pre-amps over capacitor based units myself (which the Allnic is) as I tend to find to overall weight of the music is a bit more complete, that could just be implementation though? I would also say that as you move up the ladder in price with the Allnic's that they really start to excel. I've also heard the Don Sachs, although it was hot off the press so to speak, it did sound quite nice compared to my buddies battery powered DODD, was it better? not sure, I would say that for the price, the Sachs pre's fit and finish is extremely good. I've personally moved away from pre-amps altogether and have gone to a completely direct approach, which I think is better(that's just me). The one question that I would ask Slapshot, is what amp are you using?? Is it possible that the magic your looking for maybe a compatibility issue with your amp, and your dac, and not a pre-amp??
Good luck with your quest,
Don
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So, which model are we talking about here? It looks like there are several to choose from.
Sorry, the model is question is the Allnic L3000. I spoke to a major Allnic dealer yesterday, and he said that the L3000 far outclasses the L5000.
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I will add some Controversy to this subject. Back in the 80's as a dealer, I did a lot of experimenting with CD players. I had a pair of speakers with low efficiency that I could run the player direct into a David Berning amp. The SQ was very dynamic and open, very 3-D like. Everytime I inserted a preamp, the sound was inferior. Maybe it was the preamp or the extra set of cables, who knows. I feel strongly that straight wire with gain is the best. I have often wondered if everyone could have done this back then, CD would have had a lot more fans.
Some or many of us are now using passives to take the extra active circuit and cable out of the system. That is what sounds the best for us. But your Lampi does not need a passive pre. You might find a pre that does not degrade the sound. You might ask the Lampi designer if there is one.
Good Luck
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I will add some Controversy to this subject. Back in the 80's as a dealer, I did a lot of experimenting with CD players. I had a pair of speakers with low efficiency that I could run the player direct into a David Berning amp. The SQ was very dynamic and open, very 3-D like. Everytime I inserted a preamp, the sound was inferior. Maybe it was the preamp or the extra set of cables, who knows. I feel strongly that straight wire with gain is the best. I have often wondered if everyone could have done this back then, CD would have had a lot more fans.
Some or many of us are now using passives to take the extra active circuit and cable out of the system. That is what sounds the best for us. But your Lampi does not need a passive pre. You might find a pre that does not degrade the sound. You might ask the Lampi designer if there is one.
Good Luck
I certainlly understand your point. Sometimes the simplest, straightest path is the right one. However, with the vast percentage of ll DAC makers selling units that do not have volume controls, it would seem they do not agree. As I noted earlier, 16 out of 20 Golden gate owners found that their systems were best using a preamp vs simply using the Golden Gate alone. And, if this were only about finding a "pre that does not degrade the sound" I wouldnt bother. The people who commented on their systems being better with a preamp that synched well with the GG were talking about how that preamp added to the quality of the overall sound, enhancing what the Golden Gate provided and resulting in "great" sound, not just the excellent sound that the GG can provide on its own.
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I had a very eye opening day today, a friend gave me a Hafler XL280 amplifier. I connected it up to my Lampi Atlantic with volume and was dumbfounded by the presentation of the music. I've been very happy with a Rouge Audio 1200as2 based amp. It is very open with all the detail you could ask for. For the most part it is wonderful, especially with good recordings. The only issue I have is on many recordings like from the 70s and 80s it's not very forgiving. Those recordings feel lean with a lack of body sometimes. And the top end can get harsh at times, again on not so great recordings. And because of that I don't listen to those recordings as often as I would otherwise. With the Hafler amp that is gone and the music sounds much more full and rich. It just sounds more musical to me, more lifelike. And like often happens in this hobby I didn't realize what I was missing. I am really impressed with this amp. I would have thought a 20 year old amp would lack detail and wouldn't be as open but that just is not the case. Maybe there is a magical synergy I don't know. I have had a lot of amps in my system so this is definitely a surprise.
The reason I bring all of this up is I would talk to Fred from Lampizator. A few months ago I was talking to him and he had great praise for his Musical Concepts modified Hafler amp. He loves it with his Lampi Dac. I can't recall which model he has, Golden Atlantic or Golden Gate? I can't help but think you may be able to solve your issue with a different amp. I will be sending my Hafler in for upgrades, that's how impressed I am with the sound I heard today. Heck, I don't even think it needs any upgrades but like many here I always look for better sound. And once I get used to it I may find something missing.
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The Pass Labs XP-12
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I had a very eye opening day today, a friend gave me a Hafler XL280 amplifier. I connected it up to my Lampi Atlantic with volume and was dumbfounded by the presentation of the music. I've been very happy with a Rouge Audio 1200as2 based amp. It is very open with all the detail you could ask for. For the most part it is wonderful, especially with good recordings. The only issue I have is on many recordings like from the 70s and 80s it's not very forgiving. Those recordings feel lean with a lack of body sometimes. And the top end can get harsh at times, again on not so great recordings. And because of that I don't listen to those recordings as often as I would otherwise. With the Hafler amp that is gone and the music sounds much more full and rich. It just sounds more musical to me, more lifelike. And like often happens in this hobby I didn't realize what I was missing. I am really impressed with this amp. I would have thought a 20 year old amp would lack detail and wouldn't be as open but that just is not the case. Maybe there is a magical synergy I don't know. I have had a lot of amps in my system so this is definitely a surprise.
The reason I bring all of this up is I would talk to Fred from Lampizator. A few months ago I was talking to him and he had great praise for his Musical Concepts modified Hafler amp. He loves it with his Lampi Dac. I can't recall which model he has, Golden Atlantic or Golden Gate? I can't help but think you may be able to solve your issue with a different amp. I will be sending my Hafler in for upgrades, that's how impressed I am with the sound I heard today. Heck, I don't even think it needs any upgrades but like many here I always look for better sound. And once I get used to it I may find something missing.
Greg,
Thanks very much for your thoughts on this. I absolutely agree that amps can be critical, and I am very glad to see that the Hafler delivered for you. I can't see my amp as a limiting factor, though, it is one of the better amps that have ever been made available, was a very limited edition and highly respected model that sold for over $20k.
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The Pass Labs XP-12
Thanks for the recommendation, Bill. Have you heard this preamp in a system with a Lampizator, or are you simply speaking because of very high regard for the preamp?
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I had a very eye opening day today, a friend gave me a Hafler XL280 amplifier. I connected it up to my Lampi Atlantic with volume and was dumbfounded by the presentation of the music. I've been very happy with a Rouge Audio 1200as2 based amp. It is very open with all the detail you could ask for. For the most part it is wonderful, especially with good recordings. The only issue I have is on many recordings like from the 70s and 80s it's not very forgiving. Those recordings feel lean with a lack of body sometimes. And the top end can get harsh at times, again
Thank you for that info Greg. I have wondered how the 1200AS sounded on the older classic music. My present amps do not sound harsh on the oldies. I listen too much to the oldies.
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Not that I think the AS2 amp is the end all, but you can't make a generalization about the sound of the amp in one system. The demands the speaker puts on an amplifier determine allot about its behavior as well.
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I don't have any experience with this one , but I'm very interested to try it out for myself..
Currently using the CPS3 model and love the way it produces music , just no remote control.. So I want the ZTPRE with the remote option.. http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZTPRE.html
Don't know if this preamp is on your radar or not, but should be in your price range..!!
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I don't have any experience with this one , but I'm very interested to try it out for myself..
Currently using the CPS3 model and love the way it produces music , just no remote control.. So I want the ZTPRE with the remote option.. http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZTPRE.html
Don't know if this preamp is on your radar or not, but should be in your price range..!!
Thats a very interesting option that I was unaware of. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I like what Decware does, and have met Steve. In reading the information initially, I loved the amazingly minimal signal routes in the design, I started to get excited about possibly ordering one, until I realized that it was designed from scratch to be balanced. My only concern is that it was literally designed and built with balanced connectivity in mind, using a fully balanced design with single ended connections always extracts a price in lost sound quality, or at least less than optimum sound. And neither my amp or Lampizator is balanced. :(
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What are the strengths of the GG that you are hoping to build on? More broadly, what are your listening priorities?
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Not that I think the AS2 amp is the end all, but you can't make a generalization about the sound of the amp in one system. The demands the speaker puts on an amplifier determine allot about its behavior as well.
Paul, I've listened to 4 different iterations of 1200as2 based amps with several pre amps and a couple of pairs of speakers. In general I think what I posted is pretty on. I agree with your thoughts but you can make your statement about any piece of gear in any system. Synergy is key to good sound in my opinion which is why "I think" the Hafler sounded so good to me in my system.
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What are the strengths of the GG that you are hoping to build on? More broadly, what are your listening priorities?
The strengths are its incredible clarity and superb overall balance from the bottom end to the mids to the highs. A preamp that would add just a bit of overall warmth, as well as not detract from, and possibly enhance the already outstanding clarity would be ideal. I've had a couple recommendations from Golden Gate owners as to what preamps would accomplish this, but they are extremely expensive models and far beyond my finances.
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Slapshot,
Something affordable to consider is the Linear Tube Audio Microzotl Preamp which is new this year. I’ve heard it with the Pacific at a show. I bought one based on this experience, although I do not own a Lampizator (mine is a Bricasti M1 SE). It lets the goodness through. I wouldn’t really call it warm, but it has its own sound, just a dusting of velvet, which is mostly dependent on which tubes are used. Otherwise it is clear, extended, dimensional, dynamic, liquid, detailed, and is quite good at micro dynamics too. Did I forget an adjective? I’m impressed with its imaging and ability with transients. The leading edge and decay seem just right. Natural. If it has a down side I haven’t found it yet. Well, I thought it was a good system. The demonstrators continue to use this set-up so apparently they think it is good too. (Lampizator, LTA, Daedalus, Skogrand, Wywires).
Happy shopping.
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Slapshot,
Something affordable to consider is the Linear Tube Audio Microzotl Preamp which is new this year. I’ve heard it with the Pacific at a show. I bought one based on this experience, although I do not own a Lampizator (mine is a Bricasti M1 SE). It lets the goodness through. I wouldn’t really call it warm, but it has its own sound, just a dusting of velvet, which is mostly dependent on which tubes are used. Otherwise it is clear, extended, dimensional, dynamic, liquid, detailed, and is quite good at micro dynamics too. Did I forget an adjective? I’m impressed with its imaging and ability with transients. The leading edge and decay seem just right. Natural. If it has a down side I haven’t found it yet. Well, I thought it was a good system. The demonstrators continue to use this set-up so apparently they think it is good too. (Lampizator, LTA, Daedalus, Skogrand, Wywires).
Happy shopping.
Thanks for the suggestion, and I couldnt agree with you more about the LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 preamp. It's a true giant killer. I had one in my system just prior to purchasing my current Manley Neo-Classic 300B. I only sold it, and did so with mixed feelings, because the design and tube complement of the Manley just produced some added magic with my amp and speakers. And it should given that it is three times the price of the MicroZOTL, and that's before the added $2000.00 worth of tubes that the first owner had only recently purchased for it before I bought it from him.
One of the preamps I am considering is the new, full blown Berning design, preamplifier from Linear Tube Audio. According to LTA, it takes everything that the MZ2s offered to new heights. The have incorporated everything they know about preamplifiers into this unit.
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I actually own both. I am referring to the new Microzotl Preamp and it is a bit better than the MZ2. The names are so similar I understand the confusion.
I also purchased the Daedalus Apollo 11 based on that show experience. I just received them and are breaking in. They are proving to be quite the performers. Well beyond where the system was. The preamp is only sounding better now. Often improvements only reveal the next weak link. I may try some different amplifiers but the preamp stays. I would also like to try a Lampizator at some point too.
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FWIW, I chose the Don Sachs after auditioning it with an LTA MZ2 that was powered using a Vinnie Rossi ultracapacitor power supplied instead of the LTA linear power supply. What I heard from the MZ2 was extremely articulate, clear, open, dynamic sound with awesome imaging. And extremely controlled and articulate bass and highs especially. But the Don Sachs had excellent performance in all those areas, but with a nice additional dose of midrange magic and more warmth.
Now that the new LTA separate pre is available, I’d really like to hear it up against the Don Sachs. But if the MZ2 has the LTA house sound and the new preamp is just a nicely more refined version of that sound, I would expect the Don Sachs to have that touch of magic (soul, character) that really brings the performances alive for me more than all the detail and control in the world - where LTA shone in comparison to the DS.
But it’s always about the synergy. I have never heard a GG or Pacific.
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Have you considered Tortuga? They have a passive, a new buffered preamp and you can add a tube buffer to their passive. I currently own their new buffered preamp and it enhances the music like you are asking for but also gets out of the way. The Lampizator dacs have plenty of gain in my experience, so no issues there. All the clarity and nuances are there with my Von Sxhweikert VR7 HSE speakers. Of course, IMO.
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I've been very happy using the Golden Gate DAC and have now moved to the Pacific, both balanced versions. I had both units built without a level attenuator. The built-in attenuator has a fixed input impedance seen by the DAC analog output. Instead, connecting the output stage directly to the Tortuga LDRxB controller allows the input impedance seen by the DAC to be set to an optimum level for a specific system configuration. Both the GG and Pacific sounded best with the Tortuga input impedance set to between 85 and 91 kohm per phase.
In my system, the Tortuga connects one set of outputs to a pair of Lampizator True Balanced 211 Monoblocks for the M/T and the other set of outputs to a pair of Spectron Musician III Mk-II amps running as monoblocks. The Lampi 211's have 100k input impedance per phase, so that's plenty high. The Spectrons on the other hand are 25k which is low for the LDRxB.
I'm auditioning the Tortuga tube buffer as an impedance firewall ahead of the Spectrons. It works very well there with more fleshed out harmonics, better complementing the Lampi 211's on top. The buffer's gain can be ordered set to any value to mate with the M/T amp, allowing final trimming to be done with the 211 amps' conventional rotary attenuator. Mine was customized with 1 dB steps for that purpose.
At the moment I'm driving both the top and bottom amps directly from the LDRxB as the tube buffer is being auditioned in an friend's system. I've found that with my amps, setting the input impedance of the LDRxB to 65 to 75 kohms decreases the level of the bass by a small amount, just about enough to match the level of the Lampi 211 amps. However the lower LDRxB input impedance setting relative to my 85 to 91 favored range results in a slightly less focused midrange/treble.
To summarize, my recommendation is to keep the signal path as simple as possible. The more devices, amplification stages, connectors, etc. that you force the signal to negotiate, the more the signal will be degraded in various ways. You may want to add the tube buffer, but first try just the LDR controller and experiment with input impedance settings. Then you can see how the tube buffer influences your system.
Best,
Robert
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Search on this forum and also the internet about the Allnic L10,000 OTL/OCL linestage preamp. PM me with questions. This unit takes credit in bringing my system together. I think it would pair well with your Dac.
John.
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Search on this forum and also the internet about the Allnic L10,000 OTL/OCL linestage preamp. PM me with questions. This unit takes credit in bringing my system together. I think it would pair well with your Dac.
John.
Sounds like a superb preamp, and it's stunning to look at, but at $30k, its in another universe from me as far as pricing I can afford.
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I spent the last couple months researching preamplifiers to death. I talked to everyone from known audio reviewers, to distributors, to owners of prominent brick and mortar audio stores, to primary audio forum experts, to friends I had made in the industry and also some well heeled audiophiles I had access to that have bought, demoed and sold as many as twenty or more preamps each.
In the end, I had a list of what, ideally, I would look for, on sale used (to allow some affordability). The other night, one in the most desirable grouping appeared, and in mint condition, original owner, all packaging, accessories etc. available, and with a new set of NOS tubes. The price was also more than fair. I quickly purchased the unit, and am having to bide my time until the owner gets back from his extended New Year's trip to his cabin in the mountains on January 6th. He will ship the next day, Monday, the 7th.
This is a very rarely found preamp, that also "completely coincidentally" will match beautifully with my amplifier,. The preamp in question? The Conrad Johnson ACT2. This is referred to as, essentially, a one chassis version of the fabled, ultra limited, and ungodly expensive, ART2 preamp. I was very fortunate to have this fall into my lap, and, based on the Conrad Johnson expertise I had available to me, including an incredibly knowledgeable former CJ distributor, and people within CJ itself, it should not only be a superb preamp, but a great match with my Golden Gate. It's also, in my opinion, a stunningly attractive piece of gear, so bonus there. I can't wait until I receive the delivery and cant connect things up.
Review link included:
https://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/305cj/index.html
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You can also check out the Wired4Sound preamp that is 6Moons reference.
https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/wyred5/1.html