AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Daedalus Audio => Topic started by: david12 on 12 Oct 2009, 07:59 pm
-
Some advice please, having placed an order for the Da-RaMa speakers at RMAF with Lou, I am looking at a good matching amplifier. Any experience with different amps would be appreciated.
I know the speakers are sensitive, but reports suggest they like power too. I have a 22watt SET I am sure will work well, but I am looking for suggestions. I use an integrated amp and would like tubes somewhere, if only as a Hybrid.
My thoughts include:
Ayon
Jadis
Pathos
Graaff perhaps the GM50
Jadis, second hand, I think they are overpriced
LSA signature or statement
Part of the reason is that a 2nd hand LSA statement is available at a good price at the moment, here in the UK, it may not be for long. any thoughts, including from Lou of course, would be welcome.
David
-
You may want to look into the Korato integrated amp.
(http://www.korato.com/images/products/korato/integrated/ikarus_1.jpg)
Ikarus
The second valve integrated amplifier that Korato produced was designed with top quality and power in mind. Built to very high standards it has a triode-pentode switch so you can enjoy the sound of the KT-90 valves both ways.
Internally wired with van den Hul wires it also features ultra fast recovery diodes, Mundorf polypropylene coupling caps, gold plated connectors and an Alps volume potentiometer. The input stage consists of two ECC 81/12AT7 valves and two 12BH7's. The output stages are a push-pull ultra linear connected pairs of KT-90's.
Enjoy the full power of the pentode mode or the subtlety of the triode mode
Power: 50W/8ohms - pentode mode; 25W/8ohms - triode mode
We heard the larger Ulysses speaker driven by a 60 watt Atma-Sphere OTL in Lou's big room. The speakers had no problem being driven by the tubes. I have heard from the US distributor that the Korato gear matches up well the Daedalus speakers.
I believe there is a UK distributor for Korato.
-
If you want it LOUD, then a good SS amp like the Audio GD C10, the Modwright KWA amps, or the Odyssey Kismet amps would be a good match. Based on what I heard at RMAF, it will go very loud and very clean with these types of amps.
But, if you want more "magic", tubes are the way to go. They won't do rock-concert levels like the above SS amps will, but they will still play quite loud and the sound quality is jaw dropping. The Atmasphere amp sounded great with them, and I wouldn't go much less that 60watts per side, base on what I heard at the show.
-
I am not looking for loud and to be honest, whilst I liked the speakers with Modwright, I did'nt hear a tube sound. That may seem a strange thing to say, but they sounded SS to me. I have heard Atmosphere amps before and liked them a lot, but they are too large for me to accomodate.
The other reasonably priced amp I liked a lot at RMAF was Moscode 402. It is a power amp, but the manufacturer explained he could put a passive pre in it. Another possibility then.
Wayne1, I will try and find the UK distributor of Korato tomorrow, thanks.
-
If you want it LOUD, then a good SS amp like the Audio GD C10, the Modwright KWA amps, or the Odyssey Kismet amps would be a good match. Based on what I heard at RMAF, it will go very loud and very clean with these types of amps.
But, if you want more "magic", tubes are the way to go. They won't do rock-concert levels like the above SS amps will, but they will still play quite loud and the sound quality is jaw dropping. The Atmasphere amp sounded great with them, and I wouldn't go much less that 60watts per side, base on what I heard at the show.
If you need more headroom or watts, you can always move up the line to the MA-1's from the M-60's.
I use MA-1's with Vandy 5A's and there is definitely some magic there.
When used with properly matched speakers and preamp, the Atma-Sphere amps are really hard to beat.
George
-
I'm very pleased with my Einstein Light In Dark hybrid amplifier. Einstein also makes an integrated amp. I have heard reports of exquisite sound from several people who listened to the Ulysses with a pair of Atma-Sphere M60's. These folks also report that the Quicksilver amps also worked well with the Ulysses (although there was consensus that the Atma-Sphere was better).
I tried my Ulysses with the high current Art Audio Jota. It was great at low volume but audibly ran out of gas a mid-high listening volumes.
-
many good responses here already! I would say that power is subjective re: taste and room size. My room @RMAF eats low bass, the M60's in most real living rooms would do very very well for most tastes. For general taste I would recommend 40 watts per channel or more, but this can vary widely from amp to amp. If possible I'd recommend waiting until you get the speakers to make an amp choice so that you can see how they pair up in your room.
thanks,
Lou
-
I would clearly like to wait for the speakers to come, but if anyone had said that LSA was a great match, I might have taken a chance and bought the ex dem model being sold here.
It is useful to know that 40 watts is a good area to aim for
-
David,
if you are willing to go with an amp and pre amp instead of an integrated amp, I have found that coupling the ModWright KWA 150 with a good tube pre amp like the Gill Audio Design Alana provides the best of both SS & tubes--tight, articulate bass with the warmth of tubes without being mushy.
Laura
-
Laura
In fact, from the horses mouth, as it were, I asked Dan from Modwright at RMAF and an integrated seems to be his next project. That would be some variant of his pre amps with the new KW100. An interesting prospect.
David
-
David,
I've been a very happy owner of ebonized walnut DA-RMa's since about May :drool:. My primary amp has been the Cary SLI-80 integrated, full triode mode only, and it drives the speakers wonderfully. Just this past week I have replaced the Cary with a Grant Fidelity A-534B integrated (300B SET amp rated at 8-10 wpc). I am absolutely loving this amp with the DA-RMa's! I listen at less than headbanging volume levels (but still reasonably loud) and this amp is great with the speakers!! Just thought I'd give you this to think about as well in case you have any inclination to consider a single ended amp (this if my first SE amp and I think I'm hooked).
Randy
-
Thats helpful Larry. I use a Viva Solista 22watt SET now. I am sure it will drive the Da-ramas adequately. Some of the forum entries suggest that the speakers will run well with low watts, but respond to more power too.
Another reason to change the Viva is, my wife hates it. I think it looks good, but it is BIG and runs very hot. I may be going for a rack with fixed not adjustable shelves, so need to settle on an amp to get the right shelf space.
-
Well, it seems pretty obvious that there are a lot of amps that work well with Lou's speakers from 300B amps to big SS amps. This is one of the big benefits of Daedalus speakers. Don't need a lot of power, but if you have it, they will welcome it.
With my Ulysses, I use a pair of Pass Labs XA100.5's with Dan Wrights LS36.5/PS36.5 and all Dynamic Design cables and the sound is probably the best I've ever heard. Definitely the best I've ever owned. I imagine that in a smaller room, even the Pass XA 30 watt per channel, Class A amp would sound wonderful with the DA-RMa's and they give you all the best of both ss and tubes.
Good luck with the amp. I'm sure you will love the speakers.
-
Thanks for all the excellent advice, the best being to wait till the speakers come, which of course, I am planning to do.
David
-
David,
Just curious what you ended up with?
-
David,
Just curious what you ended up with?
Mike, you seem to be having great sound with your tube amps and the Ulysses, please tell us about the amps.
thanks, lou
-
David is waiting for his speakers, we're doing something special and it's taking a bit longer than usual. Fortunately he is a true gentleman and very patient. getting close though and I think he'll feel the wait was worthwhile.
-
I'm assuming that since Lou is a dealer for the Parasound Halo series that a high powered SS amps like the JC1 or Bryston's squared series 7B and 28B SST2's would be a possibility. Any thoughts on this question would be appreciated since I bought a pair of 7B's recently and am looking at replacing my 20 year old Infinity 9 Kappas. The Ulysses looks very appealing to me and the various reviews of the sound as well.
-
the JC-1's have always been a fav. and I've had customers use the Bryston as well. all the current Daedalus models work well with just about any amplifier type. SET, push pull, solid state, even some of the digital amps. the caveat is they make use of good high current amps, it's not so much that they need it but that they can really deliver what an amp with a solid power supply can offer.
-
The Ayon Spirit II is an integrated amp that uses two KT88s per side and weighs in at a massive 85lbs. The transformers on this thing are huge and it has no problems driving the Ulysses speakers to higher levels than I care to listen.
For simplicity sake I prefer an integrated over separates and think this amp does a very nice job. I'm hoping to get my hands on a more powerful solid state integrated in the future to see how it does compared to tubes. Hey Dan, when will you be releasing a Modwright integrated?
-
I spoke to Dan briefly at RMAF. He said he is working an an integrated, loosely based on the new KW100 and elements of the 36 pre amp. He thought it will be out sometime this year. I hope that is'nt giving away any secrets.
-
Dave,
For what its worth I have an LSA Signature integrated paired with Salk HT3 speakers and it is a wonderful combination. I am not sure how it would match up with your speakers. One of the things I like about it is that it is a hybrid and you get the best of both world. 150 wpc of ss and a tube preamp.
The music is magic with this amp. It is great for both low listening and concert level, it never disappoints. Hopes this helps a little and good luck with the search.
Steve
-
Dave,
For what its worth I have an LSA Signature integrated paired with Salk HT3 speakers and it is a wonderful combination. I am not sure how it would match up with your speakers. One of the things I like about it is that it is a hybrid and you get the best of both world. 150 wpc of ss and a tube preamp.
The music is magic with this amp. It is great for both low listening and concert level, it never disappoints. Hopes this helps a little and good luck with the search.
Steve
that looks like a great amp, I'd love to try one someday. it's a bit big which defeats much of the logic for using an integrated amp ( often but not always it is an aesthetic and space driven choice), but there are laws of physics which cannot be ignored, eh?
best,
lou
-
Lou,
It is heavy and big at almost 80 pounds but it really delivers the goods. I recently thought about going to separates but the sound is so seductive that I have now reconsidered and will keep this amp. You know audiophiles they are never truly happy until their next purchase.
Before I purchase the Salks I gave the Daedalus speakers are hard consideration. I have heard nothing but good things about your speakers. They would probably match up well with the LSA.
Thanks,
Steve
-
I'm in the midst of gear evaluations and listening test's on a crossover upgrade for the speakers and have noticed that the Modwright KWA 150 which I use for a reference has finally broken in! it has been playing for better than 6 months, granted that's a long time but good things come to those who wait. in this case I'd say great things! it has attained a beautiful tube like clarity and richness in the mids and highs while still having great control and extension in the bass. I love this amp!!!!! while the amp has already received rave reviews none of them reflect the truly broken in amp, which is definitely up another notch from what the reviewers heard !
thanks,
lou
-
MCa I can answer that one, I think. I asked Dan that very question at RMAF. He said an integrated is the next project, for sometime nerxt year. It will be based on the new KW100 and near to the 36.5 preamp.
I think that Ayon look a very good package, right across the board.
-
David,
Just curious what you ended up with?
Well I have decided and I thought I would pass the experience on. Thanks for everyones advice. Some I could'nt follow. as I was looking for a reasonably compact integrated.
My existing Viva Solista was very good, but a bit soft, lacking a grip on the DA RMas. I listened to a number of options, some with the speakers, some not. First I tried an LSA STatement. I am afraid I was disappointed, it just sounded too Solid State to me, despite being a Hybrid. The Ayon Spirit and Orion I listened to at the same time, were much more like it, lovely amps.
At home with the speakers, I had the Emille K40 first. Not a strong presence in the US, but a lovely, well engineered 30watt tube amp. That was much more like it with the speakers, better grip,imaging, wider soundstage and better control of the base. In the end though, it was just edged out by the Pathos Inpol2, a 50 watt Class A, tube/mosfet hybrid. It had all the qualities of the Emille, but a richer, more natural tone. The Emille was a bit dry in comparison.
I can really strongly recommend the Inpol and I suspect the smaller, cheaper 35 watt TT amp. I bought the Inpol because it was available second hand.
Thanks again for all your advice
David
-
As a postscript, I am still using the Pathos Inpol2 with the DA-RMas and am still pleased with the sound. Lou checked out the sound when he was over visiting and seemed to think it was a good combination too. Mind you, he could'nt have been too rude about it, as he was a guest.
I still hankered after an all tube sound and after auditioning a Jadis 50S, which I was'nt too taken with, listened to the Ayon Spirit and Spark. Both are truly excellent, but the Spark was clearly more refined and delicate.
Having used it for a while as a change of pace from the Pathos, it is hard to split them. The Spark is a 20watt SET using 62C3 tubes, against the 50watt Pathos. The sound is different, not such a wide soundstage, imaging not as pinpoint, but clearly a richer, more developed tone. You can hear the woodiness of a Cello in Starkers Bach Cello Sonatas for example.
So, I can clearly recommend to Pathos and Ayon, if you are looking for an integrated choice. We listened to the DA-RMAs with the Modwright 150SE at the London show, but the room was so difficult, it was'nt a fair comparison
-
Since I became a die-hard SET fan after using a 300B amp with my DA-Rma's, I've stayed in the SET family, but since January I've been using a Mastersound 845 amp (fed by a Modwright LS100 pre), and I've very, very happy with the sound.
-
I also made a change to bring out the potential of my Ulysses. And now have that wonderful engaging sound of decay and texture that I could'nt get with OTLs. Luvin a pair of F2a monos, for 40watts their V/ballsy and dynamic , got a big open sound that I can listen to forever!
-
Hey Berto--
The only "f2a monos" that I am aware of are the Shindo Sinhonia monoblock amps that use the F2a driver tubes. Is that what you are using? With the Ulysses? I'm curious because I have a pair of Ulysses on order from Lou and will be using them with a Shindo Cortese stereo SET, which also uses the F2a tube, but only 10 watts per channel. I auditioned the Ulysses with this amp, by the way, and it had plenty of headroom, so I'm not too concerned about lack of power in my medium sized listening room. Out of curiosity, could you let us know what the rest of your system consists of?
-
Maybe I can revive this older thread. I read the recommendation for Modwright amps but am still somewhat on the fence given the remaining solid state signature. So, I am interested if there any new experiences with medium to higher powered tube amps, specifically such as 845, 211, 6C33, KT 88...
Thanks
Chris
-
I have the Ulysses and drive them with ease with a VAC 70/70 Renaissance Signature. The VAC puts out approximately 65 wpc when all eight 300B power tubes are installed. Lately, I've been experimenting by only using four of the eight 300B's, thereby cutting the power output in half (32wpc). Still, no problem at all driving the Ulysses to very high volume levels without any signs of them needing/wanting more power. I would never entertain going back to a SS amp.
-
Hello Chris,
I have used an Ayon Triton II integrated, 4 KT-88's a side, 125 watts, triode mode, with my Ulysses for about the last year and a half. I love it! True that there are lots of owners using Modwright and I have seen Pass as well but most of the Daedalus owners that I know and talk to use tubes, from low to high wattage... That is the beauty of Lou's speakers, they are just so versatile. There a are few designers and manufactures that use Lou's speakers in their reference rooms with ss or tubes. Whatever your tastes may be, these speakers can accommodate... I believe it was RMAF 2011 (maybe 2010?) where Lou's speakers showed their versatility by being in 5 or more rooms running the gamut from low power tubes, to high power solid state.
Would love to know what you decide on
Jason
-
Hey Berto--
The only "f2a monos" that I am aware of are the Shindo Sinhonia monoblock amps that use the F2a driver tubes. Is that what you are using? With the Ulysses? I'm curious because I have a pair of Ulysses on order from Lou and will be using them with a Shindo Cortese stereo SET, which also uses the F2a tube, but only 10 watts per channel. I auditioned the Ulysses with this amp, by the way, and it had plenty of headroom, so I'm not too concerned about lack of power in my medium sized listening room. Out of curiosity, could you let us know what the rest of your system consists of?
Hi Easy
Sorry for late reply just saw this. I have a pair of Tubeguru f2a monos not the pricey Sinhonias. My friend brought over a 211 integrated and it literally made me smile when listening to vocals. I honestly never heard my Ulysses sound so good, nor did I imagine they could sound that good. My friend has Zu defs and even he was shocked how good my speaks sounded. With that being said i'm now looking at alternative tube types 211, 845, GM70 are all types I am now considering. My rig is goin through alot of changes but am getting a remote DUDE preamp soon with some dueland caps(replacing a Shindo Auriges), got a Lampizator transport, a AMR & Metrum dacs (modding the latter now). All plugged into a PI audio uberbuss. I am amp shopping now but meanwhile still love my f2a monos.
Also forgot to mention for wire got wywire v3 ICs, Daedalus/Bolder SCs , for PCs Sablon Gran Coronas on amps and pre and Triode wire labs on DAC and transport. Did alot of wire rolling and and very happy with my results!
-
Maybe I can revive this older thread. I read the recommendation for Modwright amps but am still somewhat on the fence given the remaining solid state signature. So, I am interested if there any new experiences with medium to higher powered tube amps, specifically such as 845, 211, 6C33, KT 88...
Thanks
Chris
Chris,
I recently heard my Melody AN211 integrated SET amplifier with a pair of Ulysses speakers and they were sublime. The owner of the Ulysses, who posted previously in this thread, was blown away and says its the best he's heard his speakers sound. I've heard many iterations of his system over the years and wholeheartedly agree.
EDIT: Lol, looks like my friend beat me by 2 minutes.
-
Gopher, may I ask how the sound was compared to your Zu speakers?
-
At the time I brought it over, it was more relaxed and laid back in a pleasant way. At home things were a little forward which I generally enjoyed but could be a little sharp. They were similarly resolved though I might give the slight edge to the Zu Def's nanotech drivers.
A few weeks later I got placement of my speakers closer to ideal and was messaging Berto on gchat earlier that with the wider spread and closer wall placement I've adopted the speakers are far more similar then different.
I have a lot of respect for the Ulysses, its a great speaker. I found the presentation of scale and imaging to be similar, though the Us may have better stage depth. The only place I solidly prefer my Zu Defs is in bass.
-
Interesting the mention of Ayon Triton, I alternate the Pathos Inpol with a 20 watt Ayon Spark. Both sound just great with the DA-RMas. 20 watts, at least SET watts, seem more than enough, in my room . I prefer the sound to the much more expensive Viva Solista, I sold a few years ago.
I know Lou is really keen on beefy solid state amps and his speakers do sound great with Modwright. It does seem to defeat the object of making High sensitivity speakers, then use 200 watt amps with them, though I know they can take the power. Having said that, I would love to know if anyone has used the Modwright KW200 integrated amp with any of Lou's speakers, that would be interesting.
-
I've not used the Modwright amps, but know Lou loves Dan's equipment with his speakers.
I use a pair of Rogue Apollo's with KT 120's with my Ulysses and they sound great with these amps. I've also used Rogue's Medusa hybrid Tube/Class D amp and it also sounds great, although a different presentation than the Apollo's. Rogue Hera II is the preamp and it is a widely ignored, but great sounding preamp.
-
I thought I would resurect this thread to tell you about a recent discovery. I listened to an Audio Research Reference 75 recently at a recent small show and was very impressed indeed. I have decided to work an extra year before retiring, so I figure I deserve a present. The Pathos Inpol2 I have been using for several years, has been great, but perhaps lacking a little drive and dynamics.
I took delivery of the ARC a while ago and like Lou's speakers, this is a very special piece of kit. I know Lou favours Modwright and the power amps are excellent with his speakers. I still find, they have a tad too much solid state, grain to them. The ARC has all the drive, micro and macro dynamics, pinpoint imaging and soundstage depth, of the Modwright, but is mich more organic, it sounds like live music, less a recording. I am using it with a clone of the Music Audio Baby reference passive TVC and find the combination excellent.
If you had the chance of of borrowing a 75 from a friendly local dealer, I would encourage you to try. It is plenty powerful enough for Lou's sensitive speakers. I have'nt managed to move the power meters on the ARC at all yet
-
Although I don't own Daedalus speakers, I have my TubeGuru 6C33C that I import, driving a pair of similarly efficient Bastanis Mandala's with great results. It's only 14wpc, but that seems to be a powerful 14watts. We drove a huge planar magnetic speaker at the New York show recently with surprisingly good results. It drove them without any problem. I did hear briefly the f2a TubeGuru that the at the time west coast TG distributor loaned me and they sounded very good. I still prefer my 6C33C amp though.
-
By chance, my back up amp is 6C33C amp, an Ayon Spark, putting out 20 watts. I agree that the tube puts out an excellent sound. I think the Spark is one of the best amps I have heard. It does'nt come close to the ARC 75, being softer, less detailed and dynamic. To be fair, it is less than half the price