[horchai]

Denon Dan tu1800. 

[dB Cooper]

To this day I have never heard anything that could touch my AVA Super Tuner Two (and many who heard it said the same thing). Frank built these in gutted Dynaco FM-5's. I foolishly sold it for a much more expensive, 'highly regarded", newer unit. Biggest audio equipment mistake I ever made.

It's too bad that FM is basically dead as a hi-fi music source; even if I had the ST2 back, there's very few stations that put out a signal worth investing in FM.

[toocool4]

In the UK we still have very good FM stations that are worth listening to. BBC stations are very good, just don’t bother with Radio 1 as it’s bad all the rest are very good with Radio 2, 3 and 4 being excellent.

I use a Ion FMT 1 which I have own from new since about 1990 or 1991 and it has worked floorless ever since. 

[David Ellis]

My summary opinion:  The SOURCE is vastly more important than the Tuner or Streaming DAC setup.

This seems to be a resurrection of a fairly old discussion string, and I have learned & experienced a few things since the discussion origination with regard to tuners and streaming.  I believe all of my comments should fall within proper decorum for Mr. VanAlstine's circle.

First, tried a few different tuners attempting to get good / better sound from local radio stations when living in Omaha, Nebraska, and Minneapolis MN.  I tried an older Aadcom, decent Kenwood receiver, a stock Kenwood 7500, and lastly a very nicely refurbished Scott 355 $$$.  This last unit "should" have offered a sublime listening experience, but it just didn't happen.  I really wanted to enjoy the local Christian Radio station ( KTIS ) with good fidelity , but the sound quality was only mediocre with anything I tried.

During my quest for great radio on some road trip through Ohio and Kentucky I had the pleasure of finding Mama Jazz https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local/radio-personality-mama-jazz-dies/AHAx6dvHGYVO1utfz12ngK/   and the sound quality on my car radio was glorious !  Wow!  If this radio station was local, I would indeed listen to it.  Amazing!

I then realized the most critically important part of having great sound quality over the radio was the SOURCE.  The public radio SOURCE for Mama Jazz was playing excellent recordings AND I believe had excellent broadcast fidelity too.  It was truly amazing.  Unfortunately, this excellence is NOT pervasively present with other radio stations - including my own beloved Christian radio station.  I love the content, but the quality was mediocre.  And, the radio station broadcast is perhaps 10 miles from my home.

So.... I ended my quest for great fidelity from my local favorite radio station after multiple tuners and many failed attempts.  Since Mr. VanAlstine and I both live in the same metro-area, perhaps he might be willing to share his enjoyment or difficulties.

If "you" find a great sounding local radio station that you really enjoy - wonderful!  Buy a great tuner! Use a great tuner! Enjoy a great tuner!  If you live in southern Ohio or Northern Kentucky in the USA, there is likely a terrific local jazz radio station.  Mama Jazz has passed, but the terrific radio station fidelity might still be broadcasting.

Then, streaming.

This was similarly difficult, BUT there are vastly more radio stations available streaming than radio broadcast.  The likelihood of finding an enjoyable streaming radio station is better than local radio station because there are soooooo many more streaming stations!  It would seem like streaming music FROM a radio station would be simple, easy, and cheap - nope.

About 6 years ago I had a discussion with a gentlemen at our church who was involved in the streaming audio and video broadcast for our Sunday church service.  He explained that the cost associated with BROADCAST streaming for audio (and video) was expensive.  I vaguely recall the cost was about $2k monthly for decent quality streaming broadcast - depending on the number of subscribers using the service.   I am sure the environment has evolved digitally, but bandwidth is not free.

Where am I now with regard to radio and streaming....

1.  I enjoy Minnesota sports-talk radio mostly and occasionally the mediocre quality of KTIS Christian radio.  Perhaps my most enjoyable listening is sports talk radio on a humble radio while tinkering with a car in my garage  .

2.  If I want quality, I stream TIDAL music.  The quality of streaming music from TIDAL is extremely good.


Also, on the fringe on my knowledge and understanding.... several years ago at the Minnesota Audio Society monthly gathering, a sound engineer provided insight to the "loudness wars".  He explained that artists want their music to sound louder so it "stands-out" from the rest of the music on the radio. The result is considerable compression and clipping for the music peaks so the average loudness of a particular music track is increased.  The sound engineer also explained that overseas the radio standard was much better for the audiophile - mandating the average loudness for a music track at much lower level than in the USA.  I believe the USA had no mandate for radio loudness averaging at the time, but England (maybe Europe) had a legislated / legal mandate with the average of about 23db.  So, the gents across the pond in England / Europe should have much better radio - at least with regard to loudness and clipping.

Hopefully my comments might be of some help for the potential radio enthusiast  .

[Pryso]

Calypte, how far are you from LA?  Are there mountains between you and KUSC?

I'm in San Diego, over 100 miles away, but close to the coast so signal passes mostly unobstructed over water.  I pick up KUSC, usually in stereo, with only an indoor vertical antenna.  That's with a Denon TU-800.  A friend about 20 miles south of me reports a very clean signal from them but has an outdoor FM antenna. 

There is an old audio adage that a decent antenna with an average tuner can outperform a very good tuner with a poor antenna.  Still, I just tested a SAE 8000 turner before selling it and received KUSC in quiet stereo with only a folded dipole.  So there you go. 

[avahifi]

I am still using our Super Tuner Two I upgraded with all LME49600 buffers replacing the older ones a few years ago. It gets used here every day.

We also get pretty nice sound from a group of free internet radio stations from Athens, Greece, linking them from my computer to my DAC with a little Bluetooth receiver.

The sound on our local classical station, 99.5, is great.

Frank

[heiba]

FM is dead in Norway, where I live. Too stupid.

[dB Cooper]

By 'dead', helba does't mean figuratively, he means literally. FM was terminated there a few years ago IIRC. Probably the large installed base is the only thing keeping it alive here (USA).

David Ellis, compression in and of itself doesn't necessarily entail clipping- when done right, it should just reduce the dynamic range- but in an enviroonment where there is little interest in SQ, I suppose that could happen. Clipping generates sidebands that could interfere with other stations so you'd think they would complain if nothing else. BTW are you the 'Ellis 1801' Ellis?

[rollo]

  An old Sansui tuner with antenna on roof. Kicks butt over streaming same here. I listen to WBGO FM mostly.


charles

[Tom Bombadil]

I've gotten rid of all but 1 of my tuners, a Parasound.  I never use it.  Both FM and AM are intolerable.  Such a shame too, with all of these great tuners available.  I used to lust for a high end tuner.  The technology is still interesting but streaming has killed the tuner's usefulness for me. 

[Calypte]

Calypte, how far are you from LA?  Are there mountains between you and KUSC?

I'm in San Diego, over 100 miles away, but close to the coast so signal passes mostly unobstructed over water.  I pick up KUSC, usually in stereo, with only an indoor vertical antenna.  That's with a Denon TU-800.  A friend about 20 miles south of me reports a very clean signal from them but has an outdoor FM antenna. 

There is an old audio adage that a decent antenna with an average tuner can outperform a very good tuner with a poor antenna.  Still, I just tested a SAE 8000 turner before selling it and received KUSC in quiet stereo with only a folded dipole.  So there you go. 

I live in Anza, CA, in the mountains of southern Riverside Co.  Yes, there are mountains in the way.  Years ago I lived in San Diego (34 years in S.D.).  Back in the golden age of FM radio, I dreamed of someday having a tuner and antenna that could pick up a clean signal from KCBH in L.A. ("Coldwater Canyon").  I always imagined that a tuner more sensitive than the Dynaco FM-3 would do the trick, but I don't really know if that was true.  I never had the gear, and KCBH is long gone.  FM radio was once mainly a medium for classical music.  In S.D. in the early 1960s we had two FM classical stations that I remember (KFSD and KPRI).  In addition there was an AM station that played c.m. in the evening.  L.A. had KFAC and KCBH that I know of.  Maybe there were others.  In later years L.A. had KMZT ("K-Mozart").  All of that became extinct long ago.  For me there is no worthwhile FM radio.   I think I can get WQXR on the internet, maybe others, and of course I can get BBC3 on the internet.  I guess my message is, in some respects, mixed and contradictory.  Classical music on FM radio, received over the air, is largely a thing of the past, and brick-and-mortar classical CD stores are extinct.  But with streaming from Idagio and, I'm told, Primephonic, and music obtainable via streaming and download, there is more classical music available now than I ever had in the old days, much more than I can ever listen to.

[Doublej]

  An old Sansui tuner with antenna on roof. Kicks butt over streaming same here. I listen to WBGO FM mostly.


charles

Nice, can you get WRTI as well?  These are two of my favorite stations that I stream all of the time. I have an Onkyo T-9 sitting on the shelf as an audio decoration and a Sony XDR-F1HD that's sitting almost NIB. I much prefer streaming content to the local FM stations.

Does anyone know why radio stations streams are such low bit rate these days given how cheap bandwidth is?

[ArthurDent]

Marantz 112 acquired from a fellow ACer, and a Macintosh MR-71 that needs a tune up. Luckily there are 2 very good local stations, one classical, and one NPR. The NPR used to be Pacific Lutheran University, KPLU. The Univ. of Washington tried to buy them out as PLU couldn't continue funding, they had a drive to create an independent operation which succeeded. Now KNKX, usual NPR daily broadcast, but evenings are all jazz, with some blues on weekends.

[toocool4]

Does anyone know why radio stations streams are such low bit rate these days given how cheap bandwidth is?

Bandwidth is cheap for us home users but for corporate users who need high bandwidth and synchronous, it’s not cheap.

[dB Cooper]

Does anyone know why radio stations streams are such low bit rate these days given how cheap bandwidth is?

Yeah, the listener isn't paying for the bandwidth, the station is. There used to be a fair number of stations I listened to that were 320kbps. University of Oregon had a 320K AAC classical stream that sounded fantastic. Now they're 128K mp3. Almost all of them have followed suit.

[strat95]

I am still using our Super Tuner Two I upgraded with all LME49600 buffers replacing the older ones a few years ago. It gets used here every day.

We also get pretty nice sound from a group of free internet radio stations from Athens, Greece, linking them from my computer to my DAC with a little Bluetooth receiver.

The sound on our local classical station, 99.5, is great.

Frank

Frank, could you please provide which stations from Athens, Greece you are referring to?

Thanks,

T

[avahifi]

Try this link.

https://www.radio.net/s/audiophilebaroque

In the same window you will see the links to their sister stations:

Audiophile Classical,  Audiophile Jazz,  Audiophile Lounge, and Audiophile Rock-Blues

Last I knew they were playing at 324kbs or thereabouts.

[strat95]

Try this link.

https://www.radio.net/s/audiophilebaroque

In the same window you will see the links to their sister stations:

Audiophile Classical,  Audiophile Jazz,  Audiophile Lounge, and Audiophile Rock-Blues

Last I knew they were playing at 324kbs or thereabouts.

Thanks for sharing Frank.

[dB Cooper]

They're still there. Not quite as good as the 320K AAC stream KWAX used to run,, but real close. They also provide links and playlist files that can be plugged into player apps.

[Mark Korda]