AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: williamjay on 24 Sep 2020, 09:20 pm
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Hi Everyone,
I am very interested in the M Sapphire Series. But, I was curious to get your opinions between these two options. Since bass below 80 hz is not directional, I thought that the M5s with a quick sub like the Rythmik might be an option. I look forward to reading your opinions.
Thanks in advance.
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when i recently spoke to clayton about my specific speaker model choice, i also mentioned my willingness and desire to use a subwoofer pair to augment the mains as i have done so very successfully with my current boxed speakers ... in my case, a nice set of Rels... he actually dissuaded me of that notion fairly directly, saying his experience is that quickness of the baffleless woofers' bass usually makes implementing standard subs rather dicey... so take that for what it may be worth...
good luck
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Thank you for the information.
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Use OB subs for OB mains.
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I use the M5s in a not particularity small room (with 18 ft ceilings) and they do well in the low frequencies, but have integrated my Linn 10.25" sub (now run with outboard amp) with great success. Also spoke to Clayton about this before purchasing and went on his recommendation to cross over at about 40hz (he also mentions this in one of his interviews). I don't think anyone who'd hear this setup would think it sounds off. No overhang or any other artifact that draws attention. Very tuneful fast bass. Dial it in judiciously and you'll be happy. The sub is pretty small and fast. Always has been a good sub. Linn refers to their subs as bass re-enforcement speakers, and they are.
I went with the M5s because I wanted its less imposing size to the 5 inch taller M3 (and cost to a degree).
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215179)
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Meant to add I will try an OB sub when Clayton makes one..
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My own experience is that my two Rel storm III subs I had been using in a previous speaker setup did not work well with my Spatial audio X5s. I had never heard the X series so my plan was to buy the X5 and use my two rel subs crossed very low to augment the X5s bass. First of all when I received the X5s the bass was much more potent and deep than I had imagined so using subs was not even necessary. But I did try the rel subs crossed below 40 hz with various crossover settings and placements and they did not match the speed and detail of the X5s bass so I took them out fairly quickly. If I ever really desire more bass then I would get an open baffle sub to match the X5. This of course is just my experience in my room. Maybe in a larger room the rels would blend better but not sure.
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I want to thank all of you for sharing your experiences and would appreciate learning more of them.
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I use the M5s in a not particularity small room (with 18 ft ceilings) and they do well in the low frequencies, but have integrated my Linn 10.25" sub (now run with outboard amp) with great success. Also spoke to Clayton about this before purchasing and went on his recommendation to cross over at about 40hz (he also mentions this in one of his interviews). I don't think anyone who'd hear this setup would think it sounds off. No overhang or any other artifact that draws attention. Very tuneful fast bass. Dial it in judiciously and you'll be happy. The sub is pretty small and fast. Always has been a good sub. Linn refers to their subs as bass re-enforcement speakers, and they are.
I went with the M5s because I wanted its less imposing size to the 5 inch taller M3 (and cost to a degree).
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=215179)
gcurtis, could you please tell me more about your experience with the M5S regarding their sound and what other speakers you have had in the past? I currently have Merlin TSM-MM speakers along with an Epik Legend subwoofer and to my untrained ears they sound very nice. I am wondering what to expect in terms of increased performance for the money spent on the M5 Sapphires. I am hoping to hear them if there is someone local to me in either MA or RI that would be willing to show them off.
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gcurtis, could you please tell me more about your experience with the M5S regarding their sound and what other speakers you have had in the past? I currently have Merlin TSM-MM speakers along with an Epik Legend subwoofer and to my untrained ears they sound very nice. I am wondering what to expect in terms of increased performance for the money spent on the M5 Sapphires. I am hoping to hear them if there is someone local to me in either MA or RI that would be willing to show them off.
Hi William,
I have the M3’s and live in Westport MA if that helps but I would talk to Clayton and see what he recommends for your size room and associated gear. He was spot on with his recommendation for me. I need no sub with my setup.
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I want to thank all of you for sharing your experiences and would appreciate learning more of them.
I'm using my old REL T-1 with my M5s in a small room at very low crossover, as low as it goes, basically.
Works fine so far as my ears can discern! I'm sure there are better subs now for this application.
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Hi William,
I have the M3’s and live in Westport MA if that helps but I would talk to Clayton and see what he recommends for your size room and associated gear. He was spot on with his recommendation for me. I need no sub with my setup.
Audiosaurusrex, I tried sending a PM. But I don't think it went through. So, I sent an email as well. I would love to hear your speakers. Please let me know if you do not receive either the PM or email. Thank you very much for your kind offer.
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My max. distance from the speakers will be 7 feet. Given that distance, does the size difference between the M3s and M5s come into play. For example, is the height of the M3s tweeter to high or the soundstage not quite cohesive?
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My max. distance from the speakers will be 7 feet. Given that distance, does the size difference between the M3s and M5s come into play. For example, is the height of the M3s tweeter to high or the soundstage not quite cohesive?
Hi Bill,
Emailed you back. Just measured my M’3’s are 7ft from my ears. The sound is so very immersive it’s scary. It’s really like near field listening with these speakers and the tweeters disburse over a wide area. One of the big differences to the AMTs on the X series. They are not small by any means. Almost imposing in a 16x18x8 room but they are just so very cool looking IMO can work with any decor. You’ll see.
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Hi Bill,
Emailed you back. Just measured my M’3’s are 7ft from my ears. The sound is so very immersive it’s scary. It’s really like near field listening with these speakers and the tweeters disburse over a wide area. One of the big differences to the AMTs on the X series. They are not small by any means. Almost imposing in a 16x18x8 room but they are just so very cool looking IMO can work with any decor. You’ll see.
Thank you.
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gcurtis, could you please tell me more about your experience with the M5S regarding their sound and what other speakers you have had in the past? I currently have Merlin TSM-MM speakers along with an Epik Legend subwoofer and to my untrained ears they sound very nice. I am wondering what to expect in terms of increased performance for the money spent on the M5 Sapphires. I am hoping to hear them if there is someone local to me in either MA or RI that would be willing to show them off.
Williamjay,
I'm coming off having lived with an older Linn system put together in the 90's and early 2000's, so I haven't rotated a lot of modern gear, other than a couple other DACS, through my own setup. It was an active crossover/amped system. A couple upgrades were done to the AV 5140/Espek speakers in recent times. But I'll admit, after putting in this new system, the Linn's actually held up better than I thought they would have in comparison. The Mytek DAC inserted into the old system made a very noticeable improvement on its own to me over the Schiit Gumby multibit I was using the last year and a half.
The M5's and the all new front end have made quite a substantial improvement of course, and have no regrets/buyer's remorse at all. Totally loving this package. Very lively sounding with real snap, giving a more accurate and "live" feel to the reproduction. The M5's are very open sounding with a nice sized sound-stage effect, and once broken in which takes a while, are smooth, fully harmonic, dynamic and revealing (I'm hearing quite deep into the mix now). Very clean fast bass that goes surprising low (even without the sub) and deals much better (basically gone) with an upper bass node I have in my room. There is no flabby bass here. Everything is in the right proportion. And what really surprised me was the pinpoint imaging they produce even with these wider baffle speakers, having come off the narrow baffle Linns which imaged well. Of course the rest of the new system is contributing to this. For reference my speakers are 7 feet apart at center and my seating position is about 10 and a half feet from the front plane of the speakers.
The open baffle design intrigued me and I went to the Florida hi fi show locally last January to hear them. They were the M3 model but the basic voice is identical. I liked what I heard (as much as you can at a show) and saw, so I took the plunge. My amp choice ultimately was even influenced by Clayton too. After telling him I was interested in trying a class D amp and what I was considering (PS Audio, Wyrd4Sound among others), and he suggested Cherry (Digital Amp Co.). He was having great success in one of his auditioning rooms (using the M series) with some of their "in-line" mono amps, and thought they were ahead of the curve in class D design (all proprietary). I ended up getting the 2-Cherry stereo amp (200/400 watt).. Tommy O'Brien at DAC/Cherry is a great guy to deal with too BTW.
While I might not be the best resource to give a vast comparison as my experience is somewhat limited. I hope this helped a bit for you and the OP. Be glad to answer any other questions. Cheers.
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Williamjay,
I'm coming off having lived with an older Linn system put together in the 90's and early 2000's, so I haven't rotated a lot of modern gear, other than a couple other DACS, though my own setup. It was an active crossover/amped system. A couple upgrades were done to the AV 5140/Espek speakers in recent times. But I'll admit, after putting in this new system, the Linn's actually held up better than I thought they would have in comparison. The Mytek DAC inserted into the old system made a very noticeable improvement on its own to me over the Schiit Gumby multibit I was using the last year and a half.
The M5's and the all new front end have made quite a substantial improvement of course, and have no regrets/buyer's remorse at all. Totally loving this package. Very lively sounding with real snap, giving a more accurate and "live" feel to the reproduction. The M5's are very open sounding with a nice sized sound-stage effect, and once broken in which takes a while, are smooth, fully harmonic, dynamic and revealing (I'm hearing quite deep into the mix now). Very clean fast bass that goes surprising low (even without the sub) and deals much better (basically gone) with an upper bass node I have in my room. There is no flabby bass here. Everything is in the right proportion. And what really surprised me was the pinpoint imaging they produce even with these wider baffle speakers, having come off the narrow baffle Linns which imaged well. Of course the rest of the new system is contributing to this. For reference my speakers are 7 feet apart at center and my seating position is about 10 and a half feet from the front plane of the speakers.
The open baffle design intrigued me and I went to the Florida hi fi show locally last January to hear them. They were the M3 model but the basic voice is identical. I liked what I heard (as much as you can at a show) and saw, so I took the plunge. My amp choice ultimately was even influenced by Clayton too. After telling him I was interested in trying a class D amp and what I was considering (PS Audio, Wyrd4Sound among others), and he suggested Cherry (Digital Amp Co.). He was having great success in one of his auditioning rooms (using the M series) with some of their "in-line" mono amps, and thought they were ahead of the curve in class D design (all proprietary). I ended up getting the 2-Cherry stereo amp (200/400 watt).. Tommy O'Brien at DAC/Cherry is a great guy to deal with too BTW.
While I might not be the best resource to give a vast comparison as my experience is somewhat limited. I hope this helped a bit for you and the OP. Be glad to answer any other questions. Cheers.
Thank you for sharing your experience with the M5s. It is very helpful to me.
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I echo what gcurtis said. I have M5s in a room and the speakers are about 7 ft away from the listening position. I have a pair of Totem Storm subs running with the M5s. I have tested M5 with or without subs many times, and there is no question these sound better with subs. The sound stage is significantly larger and music sounds more engaging. When I was deciding between M3 and M5, Clayton suggested that I go with M5 based on the size or the room and the fact that I have sub. Btw I also have a 2-Cherry amp which pair well with M5s.
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I echo what gcurtis said. I have M5s in a room and the speakers are about 7 ft away from the listening position. I have a pair of Totem Storm subs running with the M5s. I have tested M5 with or without subs many times, and there is no question these sound better with subs. The sound stage is significantly larger and music sounds more engaging. When I was deciding between M3 and M5, Clayton suggested that I go with M5 based on the size or the room and the fact that I have sub. Btw I also have a 2-Cherry amp which pair well with M5s.
Thanks Rosswell105! I appreciate you sharing your experience with the M5s.
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I'm using my old REL T-1 with my M5s in a small room at very low crossover, as low as it goes, basically.
Works fine so far as my ears can discern! I'm sure there are better subs now for this application.
Thanks Sockpit!
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Given that the m3 only goes to 32 (same as m5), does anyone know how much less bass the m5 sapphire has? Do you really need a sub or would have used a sub anyway to get those really low frequencies <32? I like the look of the m5 much more, size, as well as the fact that it is an 8 ohm speaker which marry better with my monoblocks, but my room is 30x18x8 and the speakers would be in the center of the long wall. I'm concerned that I'll get the m5s and I'll be thinking the bass is weak. I'm willing to EQ to make up the difference if that would help. Thinking about using some sort of room DSP as well like DIRAC for the low frequencies. I use DSP for my desktop system and it truly gives me flat response (Sonarwave). Thanks.
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I have M5s in small office. Imho, given your room size, I’d definitely go with the double
woofer on the M3s. But you should discuss with Clayton, too!
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My room is about 28x15x8 and I have M5s 3 ft in front of the long wall. I seat about 8 ft from the speakers and I don’t find the bass lacking. I happened to have a sub and I do use it with M5s. M5s do go down to about 32 and with the sub it goes to about 26-28 Hz. I added another matching sub but frankly I don’t hear the difference between one and two subs. Whether you go with M3 or M5 depends how you placed the speakers and where you do most of listening.
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Thanks. What's the sub you use and did you have it centered when you only had 1? Clayton said to go with the M3s, but the size is a bit big for WAF. What's the depth of the M5 (the base)?
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Thanks. What's the sub you use and did you have it centered when you only had 1? Clayton said to go with the M3s, but the size is a bit big for WAF. What's the depth of the M5 (the base)?
17" from the baffle front to the rear of the base. That is the total depth for an M5 Sapphire.
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Thanks. What's the sub you use and did you have it centered when you only had 1? Clayton said to go with the M3s, but the size is a bit big for WAF. What's the depth of the M5 (the base)?
Not centered but between the two speakers. I have Totem acoustic storms paired with M5s. Not big and not the best for HT but musical and blend in well with M5. I have a SVS sub for HT application. Another sub I recommend is a Rel.