AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Jaytor on 11 Jan 2020, 09:24 pm
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I finally finished setting up my room with new acoustic treatments and drapes. I added the three GIK art panels that I was using in my previous listening room to the left well. These are 4" panels with scatter plates.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203161)
On the right side above the fireplace, I had GIK make another art panel. This one uses their 242 design with no scatter plate. Mostly, I wanted to tame the reflection from the travertine above the fire place.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203162)
I added six GIK 242 panels to the ceiling. I created a framework using right-angle aluminum strips from home depot. This is hung from the ceiling at four points, so there is about a 3" gap which improves the lower frequency absorption.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203163)
Behind the speakers, I have two free standing 2'x4' GIK 4" diffusor/bass traps, as well as two 2'x2' 6" diffusor/bass traps (that I had purchased for my previous room). I also have a home-made tube trap in each corner.
I also installed lined draperies in front of the large floor to ceiling windows and french doors. The drapes made a considerable difference in smoothing out the upper midrange. Previously, I had a bit of a glare on some recordings. Much smoother now.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203164)
I'm using IsoAcoustics Gaia II footers on the NX-Oticas with the back a bit higher the front so that the tweeters are aimed a bit closer to ear position. On the subs, I am using Herbie's Giant Gliders on the outside corners. The inside is sitting on the padded rug. I can't really say how much these affected the sound, since the sound has been changing so much over the past few weeks as the drivers, cross-overs, new cables and sub-amps have broken in. It has definitely gel'ed very well (or maybe I've just gotten used to the sound...who knows).
Without the carpeting and acoustic treatments, the room is VERY live. The front third of the room has cinder-block walls and lots of glass as you can see. The floor is travertine over concrete. The treatments have made a huge difference.
The back of the room has book cases on one side and is open to another room on the other side. I haven't added any treatment to the back wall. At some point, I might consider doing something, but the system sounds good with the treatments I've done.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203167)
- Jay
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Well done! Looks fantastic.
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Man, you do not mess around! That room looks great. And I recently did a similar level of treatments in my very live listening room and the difference treating the room makes is rather astonishing.
Well done man!
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Thanks. Here's a few measurements in case you are curious.
The room dimensions are 26'6" x 17'1" x 7'7". The front of the speaker baffle to the front wall is 7'. The NX-Oticas are 9'4" apart (measuring from the center of the baffle). The distance from the listening position to each speaker (front of NX-Otica) is 11'9". I plan to experiment a bit with moving the couch forward a bit (closer to the speakers), but I haven't had a chance yet.
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P.S. I think this room is big enough for the Line Force :D :D :D. What do you think?
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P.S. I think this room is big enough for the Line Force :D :D :D. What do you think?
Hell yes.
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Get the couch closer and you may get some more depth to the sound. Our room is identical measurement wise.
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I'll give it a try.
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Very nice room & setup! Treatment looks good so far. I would LOVE to have room that size to get everything sounding it’s best.
The things that I noticed were the hard reflective surfaces behind the MLP that I can see the curtain reflections in, along with the curtains themselves. They look nice, but I would think something heavier/thicker would help even more.
Still going to be great. Line Force would be incredible. :drool: :drool:
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The back wall is a little reflective, but I haven't figured out anything I could do that wouldn't significantly compromise aesthetics, which I don't really want to do.
From what I understand (and from my experience with multiple Magneplaners in the past), an overly damped wall behind the speakers doesn't work very well with dipole speakers. The drapes I used have a thermal liner which seems to be just about the right amount of absorption to cut the higher frequency reflections. And glass tends to be somewhat transparent for bass frequencies, so, along with the other acoustic treatments I have behind the speakers, it seems like it is providing a good balance of reflection, absorption and diffusion. The tonal balance is good and the image depth and precision seems to be quite nice.
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Jaytor,
Room looks aesthetic and nice! Enjoy the fruits of your efforts!
Best,
Anand.
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Necely done Jay, room looks great ! Enjoy your new speakers / subs :thumb:
jay
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Wow, nicely done.
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Thanks guys. I did move the couch up about a foot and I think it does sound slightly better. Also provides more room to walk between the couch and my desk so my wife appreciates that.
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Nice room Jaytor. I’m interested in your comparison of the NX-Oticas vs Magnepans.
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Looks amazeballs!
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Thanks for the compliments.
@ryno - I've owned three different Maggies over the years - MG1s in the late 70's, Tympani IVs in the mid-80's, and MG3.6Rs a few years ago. What I loved about the Magnepans is the open-airy soundstage and the total lack of boxiness in the sound. The ribbon tweeters have an incredible delicacy to the sound, but don't always integrate perfectly with the planar-magnetic drivers. The biggest negatives of the Maggies were lack of dynamics (everything sounds a little soft which is great for vocals, sax, etc., but leaves me wanting on percussion, guitar, piano, etc.), limited low bass, and lack of imaging precision (the Maggies portrayed a deep and wide sound stage, but it was more difficult to pin point the position of musicians/instruments). I don't have any experience with the MG-20 or MG-30, which likely address some of these weaknesses.
The NX-Oticas have a similar deep, wide, airy soundstage, but have somewhat better image specificity and are much more dynamic. They can play loud completely effortlessly, but still sound well balanced at lower listening levels. With the OB subs, they totally trounce the Maggies I've owned below about 50Hz. Of course, you could always add GR's OB subs to the Magnepans and they would probably integrate very well as both are dipoles.
The NX-Oticas have more clarity and detail than I remember getting from any of my Maggies. I always used the stock crossovers on the Maggies, and I suspect part or all of this difference is in the quality of the crossover components. My NX-Oticas include the upgrades to the caps and inductors that Danny offers. I suspect there is even more room for improvement here by replacing some of the Sonicaps with even better options, but this would add considerable expense.
I think female vocals sounded a bit smoother on the MG3.6Rs, but not as detailed. On the NX-Oticas, I can hear details such as inhalation and lip smacks much more clearly on well recorded music. But male vocals are much more authoritative on the NX-Oticas. You can hear more of the guttural sounds you'd expect from a deep male voice.
I think the NX-Otica midrange drivers are probably their weak spot. Not that they are bad, but I don't think the integration with the NEO3 tweeter is as good as it could be with, say, the NEO10 drivers. Female vocals are handled by both the NEO3 tweeter and the 6" midrange drivers and the combination of (or transition between) these drivers can add a bit of roughness to the sound. This is probably exacerbated by the high level of detail and clarity that these speakers portray, and is more noticeable on really good recordings. This is not in the least a serious flaw, but it's the one area where the NX-Oticas and OB subs are not obviously better than any other speaker I've owned. On a side note - I'm dying to hear the Line Force since I think this would up the ante in all respects and, based on how good the NEO3 is, would almost certainly significantly improve on the upper midrange.
The Maggies are a lot harder to drive than the NX-Oticas. No matter how loud I play the NX-Oticas, my Parasound JC-5 amp seems to be loafing along and is no warmer than idle. From what I've heard, the Oticas can be driven easily with 10-30 watts. The Maggies require some serious power and current to really open up. I used a Levinson ML-3 with my Tympani IVs and a Krell FPB-300 with my MG3.6Rs.
Hope this helps answer your question.
- Jay
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Good comparisons and observations.
It is funny to me though that you thought the mid-range drivers to be their week spot. To me that is the best part. They have the most musical and lush mid-range that I have ever got out of any speaker. And it was especially true with Tyson's 300B tube amps. Oh, those things were fantastic. I liked the mid-range better on the NX-Oticas and NX-Tremes with that 300B amp than anything we were able to get out of the Line Forces or Super Minis that use Neo 10's using the same amp and every other amp that we had around here.
And vocals aren't really handled at all by both the mid-range and tweeter. Even female vocal ranges are handled by the mids. Only the upper harmonics are picked up by the tweeter. And the low crossover point with shallow slopes and perfect time alignment allow them to integrate REALLY well.
So I would tend to bet that what you are hearing is more a result of your Parasound amp. I've had one of those amps and it did have a hardness or roughness to it in that area that was not real musical. I'd recommend trying some different amps with them and hear what happens.
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So I would tend to bet that what you are hearing is more a result of your Parasound amp. I've had one of those amps and it did have a hardness or roughness to it in that area that was not real musical. I'd recommend trying some different amps with them and hear what happens.
I was thinking the exact same thing, but wasn't bold enough to say it. IMO, there's a 99% chance that experimenting with higher quality amps will give you a much better appreciation of just how good your speakers are. In fact, this could be a very beneficial budget neutral move for you.
BTW -- I can't stand your incredible room. :lol:
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Thanks for the great comparison Jaytor. I’ve gone from MMG’s to MG12’s to 1.7’s. I’m interested in the improvements you mentioned while keeping the dipole magic. I’m fairly close to the speakers in my room, ~6.5ft with 4.5ft to a front wall with lots of diffusion. The back wall is 19ft away but I can’t pull the listening chair any further out. Do the NX-Oticas perform well up close?
Thanks again, Ryan
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I trust your opinion Danny. It could very well be something upstream that is contributing to what I am hearing. Or it could be that these speakers are just letting a lot more of what is on the recording come through. On my previous speakers which are no where near as revealing, these female vocals (such as Show Biz Kids by Ricky Lee Jones and Birds by Dominique Fils-Aime) sounded somewhat smoother, although as I said I'm hearing a lot more other details in these recordings that I haven't heard before. This is a pretty subtle issue though.
Deep male vocals (such as These Bones by The Fairfield Four) sound absolutely amazing. The power that comes through is breathtaking.
I'm not a real fan of tube amps - I've just had too many issues with the tube amps and preamps I've owned over the years. I like the sound when they are working well, but don't want to deal with the hassles. Perhaps I've been unlucky with reliability, but that's where I'm at. I tried a number of solid state amps that I have owned or was able to borrow and the JC-5's sounded best to me within my budget (although I was using different speakers to test them).
I have found that these speakers are more revealing of cable changes than has been the case with previous speakers I've owned recently. So I will continue to play around with cable swaps to see if I can find some combination that takes the system to the next level.
I should make it clear that I am not in the least dissatisfied with this system. These speakers are amazing and easily the best I've ever owned (including some that cost many times more).
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@ryno - I haven't tried them with my primary listening position quite that close, but I can say that these speakers are by far the best "party" speakers I've owned, meaning that the sound throughout the room sounds great if you are standing and walking around.
I had a party a few weeks ago where there were at least 20 people in the room, mostly standing, and everyone was blown away by how good they sounded. Even standing a couple feet in front of them sounds good, although you're not really getting the stereo image without being closer to the sweet spot.
So I would think they'd do just fine with a closer listening position. The only issue is that the sweet spot might be a bit narrower as you move closer. With the speakers a bit more than 9' apart and about 10' from the center of the couch, the sound and imaging is quite good across the full width of my full size couch.
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I'm familiar with that amp - it's a good match for speakers that are a difficult load (like Maggies) and it's a good match for speakers that are not super high resolution like anything from Dynaudio, Wilson, Sonus Faber, etc... ie, pretty much anything that uses scandinavian drivers like Scan Speak. It matches well with those drivers because they are imparting a softness to the sound that's part of their basic design.
But the NX-Otticas are very high resolution and any glare in your partnering amp will show up now. Because they are such an easy load, you don't need a big bruiser of an amp to drive them, you can focus on something with lower watts but higher quality. Things like the Pass X30 or the First Watt Aleph or BA3 (but not, not, not the F5!).
Of course tubes will get you there easier and cheaper. I understand not wanting to mess with them but if you do, I'll 2nd the rec Danny made for the Elekit Japan 300b, it was a great match and is current production. If you feel like 8 watts is not enough, my 2nd rec would be the VTA ST70 with octal driver board (6SN7 tubes) from tubes4hifi.com - they are made in america by people similar to Danny, IMO. They make very high performance amps for very little money (relatively). The amps don't look sexy but they produce just about the best 35 watts per channel around.
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At some point I might consider a Pass XA25 or similar (I am a fan of Pass amps and have owned a couple in the past), but since I've only owned the JC5 for less than 6 months, my wife would not appreciate me buying something different so soon.
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At some point I might consider a Pass XA25 or similar (I am a fan of Pass amps and have owned a couple in the past), but since I've only owned the JC5 for less than 6 months, my wife would not appreciate me buying something different so soon.
A couple other things to try in the meantime - bypass the Soniccaps with some Miflex copper caps. You only need the .1uf value and they are cheap (like less than $20). They make a pretty marked improvement in mid/high smoothness. For speaker cables, check out the Duelund replica of the Western Electric wire. Also very inexpensive and it will ameliorate any crispies that pop up.
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Already have the Miflex cap. I am thinking of trying some of Danny's Electra Cable SCs. Currently I'm using DH Labs Q-10 which are silver plated copper which could be contributing to the slight aggressiveness in the upper midrange.
I'll check out the Duelund cables though. Thanks.
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Silver plated copper - oh yeah that's going to light things up a bit. Heck you might not even need something as mellow as the Duelund cable, just some neutral pure copper will be a better match most likely.
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Already have the Miflex cap. I am thinking of trying some of Danny's Electra Cable SCs. Currently I'm using DH Labs Q-10 which are silver plated copper which could be contributing to the slight aggressiveness in the upper midrange.
I'll check out the Duelund cables though. Thanks.
Ah, that could be part of the problem. Silver coated Copper will cause a phase shift that is very audible.
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But male vocals are much more authoritative on the NX-Oticas. You can hear more of the guttural sounds you'd expect from a deep male voice.
If you get a chance, check out "Somewhere down the crazy river" by Robbie Robertson
https://www.discogs.com/Robbie-Robertson-Robbie-Robertson/master/60200
An underrated album
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@RonP - nice song. I liked it. Thanks for the pointer.
Well, I ordered a set of Electra Cables from Danny. Looking forward to seeing how these change the sound.
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@RonP - nice song. I liked it. Thanks for the pointer.
Well, I ordered a set of Electra Cables from Danny. Looking forward to seeing how these change the sound.
Jay, I used the Electra Cables quite a bit with the NX-Otica's, I think you will like the match. Might not be quite as detailed as what you're using ( will be interesting to know) but the overall sound is really welcoming and pleasing to listen to.
jay
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Thanks Jay.
A friend came over last evening with his Border Patrol DAC to try in my system and compare with my Schiit Yggdrasil (v2 Analog board). The BP DAC was softer and more laid back and lacked the clarity, dynamics and deep bass of the Yggy, but the roughness I was hearing in the female vocals was completely gone. But even with my current setup, this issue seems to be fading so I could still be dealing with break-in issues.
At any rate, this gives me some confidence that I'm a few tweaks away from reaching nirvana.
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Thanks Jay.
A friend came over last evening with his Border Patrol DAC to try in my system and compare with my Schiit Yggdrasil (v2 Analog board). The BP DAC was softer and more laid back and lacked the clarity, dynamics and deep bass of the Yggy, but the roughness I was hearing in the female vocals was completely gone. But even with my current setup, this issue seems to be fading so I could still be dealing with break-in issues.
At any rate, this gives me some confidence that I'm a few tweaks away from reaching nirvana.
Yeah man, it sounds like you'd just tuned your system to sound good with your prior speakers and now you just need to adjust a few things to optimize for the new speakers. I'm going through the exact same process in my living room system right now. But I gotta say, dialing things in like this is pretty fun.