[Hantra]

Listening to Garcia’s fatty guitar intertwined with Pigpen’s organ work is almost a religious experience for me.  It’s as if I am sitting in a pew listening to these guys in a cathedral of sound.  Coming down from my musical high between a book-perfect Dark Star, and a fun, but hard driving St. Stephen, I thought, “I gotta write a review of these room treatments!!”  

So here I am.  St. Stephen still playing in front of me makes me feel like a kid doodling during a church service, on a laptop.    It’s been a while since I’ve reviewed anything, and I’ll be honest, it’s been a while since I’ve made any changes to my system at all.  After two or three years, a couple dozen amps, more digital front ends than I can remember, and many preamps, I’ve found pretty much what I was looking for.  So I disappeared into the music for several months just enjoying the sound.  

I’ve been keeping up a bit here and there, but not really playing the game lately.  Nathan at Eighth Nerve convinced me to get off my rear and upgrade my room.  Seems like perfect timing since I don’t really have anything else I want to upgrade.  Nathan hadn’t steered me wrong in the past, and the Response treatments I had were great, so I placed my order.

What seemed like an eternity soon passed, and after playing FedEX’s version of “Where’s Waldo” with my package, I was ready to get down to business.

The Adapts arrived in a huge outer box with each treatment neatly and individually boxed.  I pulled them all out and lined them up on the stairway to the listening lair.  After reading the directions, which you DO need to do first, I sat down to listen one last time to the Response treated room.

People in the biz who have visited my room with measuring equipment have said that my in room response is one of the flattest they have seen, which surprised me, and really reinforced how good the Response series of products are.  I was getting great sound, but at times, I was really not getting the vocals as nice and focused as I would have liked.  I knew it was my treatment configuration because I spent quite a bit of time moving them around with different results.  I could never find the right combination, however, and Nathan assured me that Adapts were the answer to all my problems.

Jumping back in time, I was pretty heavily into room treatment before I got the Response products.  I had about $2,500 worth of Michael Green’s top of the line PZC’s for a while.  When I moved into my new house, I had my own dedicated room instead of the huge vaulted, screwy shaped living room I was in previously.  Once I put my PZC’s in place, I just felt like there was WAY too much absorption.  I took all my PZC’s out except for three, and when I would add the fourth, I’d go from a big grand piano to a small upright, which was very frustrating.  

I ordered the Response on faith, and I was handsomely rewarded with something that did exactly what I needed without the incredible absorption making my room dull and lifeless.

Back to the topic at hand.

After I removed all the Response products, I gave a listen to a few discs with no treatment.  Putting it mildly, I threw up in my mouth just a little bit.    In all seriousness, I have absolutely no idea how anyone can listen with NO treatment at all.  What was once a religious experience became a sort of preschool finger-painting exercise with sound smeared all over the place in such a chaotic manner.  It was quite stressful going from Response to nothing, so I was happy to continue with my install.  

Eighth Nerve has done a superb job engineering these products, and I can say that before even listening.  The method of installation was just genius.  The clear, acrylic brackets are no larger than they have to be, and are as unobtrusive as possible.



The Triangle product has a genius mounting that just screams out innovative.  These are held in place by three springs attaching to a single point, and hanging onto one point of the ceiling.  With the plastic bumpers installed, the mounting system makes them very easy to adjust perfectly so that the spacing is even all the way around.

I won’t waste a lot of words describing the install process because the instructions are pretty comprehensive and detailed.  A couple of things deserve mention.  First, wear gloves or something when you’re handling the springs and installing the triangles.  You don’t want to touch the front of the piece with the same hands because you will transfer some of the grease from the spring to the face of the product.  This doesn’t matter on black, but sucks on white.  The grease is just a lubricant to keep the springs from rusting, so make sure you keep it off the face of the Triangles.  

Secondly, be very precise when mounting them.  Have a friend available, and take your time.  I rushed a couple of them, and quickly found out later that the spacing is critical.  My mounting job wasn’t that precise on the difficult horizontal one over my equipment rack, and I had to go back and adjust it later.  And remember, you’re walls aren’t straight.  Very few are straight for the length of the Rectangle, so make sure you measure each mounting point individually.

After I installed the Triangles and the vertical Rectangles, I took a break to listen a bit.  The first word that came to my mind, less than a minute into the first track, was “eerie”.  The sheer amount of detail, and decay I was hearing was unlike anything I had ever heard in my room.  There was just so much more there.  The decay and sense of space was just astonishing!  So I quickly got busy mounting the remaining four Rectangles.

With the install complete, I sat down for my first serious listening session with the new treatments.  I started with my old reliable title track off Alison Krauss’ New Favorite disc.  I have always loved this track, and the first thing I notice is the massive amount of decay/delay on Alison’s vocals.  Her voice just kept going, and going, and going. . .  Again, it was a bit eerie because it was nothing I had experienced before, and defied all logic.  It just didn’t seem possible that the boundaries of my room would allow that type of natural decay.

Even better than that was the fact that the vocals, which I had previously complained to Nathan about, were perfectly focused and dead center.  The soundstage was quite a bit deeper than before, and interestingly enough, the sound seemed quite a bit more detached from my speakers.  The Piegas image very well and present a very holographic picture.  With the new treatments, they really are able to throw sound into very precise locations within the room.  

I was surprised at this because I had no idea how it could happen with just room treatments.  Before, I think that some of the sounds were a bit confused or distorted, and never really pinpointed in space because of my room’s acoustics.  Again, it doesn’t make any sense, but as I am now learning, these things are doing quite a bit that defies my understanding of what a simple room treatment is capable of doing.

I next played some Tony Rice Unit off Unit of Measure.  I was immediately struck by the palpable feel of track 6 on this disc.  Again, this doesn’t make any sense to me, but I actually am not only hearing a lot more of the music, but I am feeling it as well.  The McIntosh gear is so incredibly dynamic, and has lots of impact.  But it seems now as if I am feeling a lot more of the sound.  I know it sounds strange, but this adds a high degree of realism for me, and is one of the reasons I like efficient single driver/horn speakers that move a lot of air.  Physics dictates that my ribbons can’t move a ton of air, but I am still feeling a lot more of the high frequency and mids than before.  

Tony’s guitar seems to have a more accurate timbre than before.  I have actually played the Santa Cruz Tony Rice model, and I am very familiar with the sound, as I have seen TR in concert several times.  The extra decay and detail I am getting probably plays a huge part in this area.

The size of the instruments on this disc is so much more realistic as well.  That’s a big dreadnaught he’s playing on track 7, and it sure seems a lot more accurately portrayed with the new treatments.  The mandolin jumps right out in front of the speaker, and I can hear a lot more of the subtle cues in the recording, like breathing, than I did before.  

I saw the Steve Kimock Band in Charlotte on January 21st, and thanks to DSBD.net, I was able to get a soundboard matrix of this show a couple days later for $12.  I sat front and center at that show at stage level, and I clearly remember being so excited by Steve’s first song.  My friend and I were joking that we should just leave now b/c it couldn’t get better from here.    The track is called A New Africa, and with Steve’s new keyboardist and bassist, it is incredible!  

In my room tonight, it’s really good.  In some ways, it’s better than the show, but not because of my system.  It’s because there aren’t 700 people smoking and drinking in my room while talking at 115dB.  I will never understand why drunks will pay $20 to go to their favorite spot and drink.  I mean if you just want to get drunk and be loud, go to a bar where you don’t have to compete with the music.  

Anyway, the scale of the performance is really good with the new treatments.  I am very impressed with the soundstage.  It’s very deep, and the instruments are precise in their location.  Again the decay is so amazing, and it’s so much better than before.  It really does add a lot to the experience.

Firing up the Reference Recording of John Rutter’s Requiem really allows the new treatments to shine in a big way.  This was recorded in a large cathedral, and I am hearing spatial cues like never before.  The size of the choir is probably 80% larger than it was before with the Response treatments.  The organ now fills the entire acoustic space, whereas previously it was more front and center.  It is fascinating the amount of information coming from behind and around me.  I saw a girl’s choir inside Notre Dame in Paris last year, and it was a transcendental experience.  With the new treatments, I am much more convinced that my room is a small slice of that very large cathedral.  The boundaries simply do not exist.  I cannot get over this.  

One thing I notice on this recording too is that the bass seems to be much more tightly controlled with a better leading edge.  I know that sounds silly because these things aren’t suppose to affect bass, but I am telling you what I hear now versus with the Response.

I am absolutely dumbfounded at how these things take my room out of the equation.  My volume is on 75 right now, and before, anything above 60, the room simply took over and it didn’t get louder, it just got more confused and stressful.  I can listen to any disc now, louder than before, and it just gets louder, as it should.  

I could go on and on, but I have pretty much given you a summary of what these things do for my room.  They remove the boundaries, versus with the Response, where the boundaries were simply extended.  They bring things into focus, whereas before, the vocals, and instruments were not as clearly defined.  They present a massive amount of new detail that just simply was washed away before.  This includes decay as well as quite a bit of spatial information, and instrumental timbre.  They keep my room from taking over at higher volumes.  That is a WELCOME change from anything I’ve had in the past.  They tighten up the bottom end, interestingly enough.  

One thing that you will need to know with these is that the spacing between the product and the wall is critical.  One eighth of an inch can make a MASSIVE difference.  The other night I was playing with the spacing.  At 1/4”, things are precisely focused, and exactly how I want my system to sound.  If I go to 3/8”, the freaking soundstage plummets really far out, which is awesome.  The depth just increases a LOT.  The only thing I don’t like is that in addition to this, the sound seems to smooth quite a bit, and the leading edges aren’t quite as clearly defined, or focused.  Which I guess is how the real world is as well.  When we’re further from the acoustic source, this is how it would be.  I went back to ¼”, and it’s perfect.  

Make sure you measure precisely with something.  The best way is to take something that is ¼”, or 3/8” or whatever distance you want to try, and slide it along the wall to make sure the spacing is correct.  Do this on both sides before AND after you tighten the thumbscrews.  When you tighten them, the treatment will pitch in that direction.  

These garnered my highest recommendation even before I listened.  They are gorgeous compared to the Response, and even if they hadn’t sounded any better, they’d have been well worth the money.  But upon listening for the past week, I’ve gotten quite a bit more than I bargained for.  I cannot imagine how you are listening without treatment, and even if you have treatments, you should try these.  They are several generations beyond anything I’ve ever used, and with a 30 day trial, you haven’t much to lose.

Associated equipment:

McIntosh C2200 preamp
McIntosh MC402 amplifier
Piega C3 Limited speakers
Audience Au24 speaker cable & interconnects
Audience PowerChords
Scott Nixon TubeDAC+ with 3XAC
Aloia 11.01 CD Player
PC transport with SPDIF out
DIY Balanced Power conditioner
Wattgate Outlets on dedicated lines

[lonewolfny42]

Nice review B ....thanks !!! And I'm happy to read that your equipement search seems to be over...now you can sit back and enjoy the tunes !!!

Chris[/list:u]

[8thnerve]

Hantra,

I am glad you are pleased with the treatments, and thanks for the thoughtful review.  The Adapt series certainly improves the bass in the room, even at very low frequencies.  This is due to two primary factors.  First, because we trap the return energy from the corner and lock it into a reflective cycle through the dense fiberglass, we get the benefit of the sound wave traveling through the 2 inch absorptive portion many times, which increases the virtual depth of the material.  Second, because many of the bass frequency anomalies are caused by the phase distortion of the  corner return wave, we mostly eliminate the errors that give rise to bass frequency variation and ringing.  

For further improvement in the bass department, the upcoming Adapt bass product will take performance to a higher level by reducing acoustic distortion even more.  The new Adapt bass product used in conjunction with the Adapt series gives about another 50% improvement over what you hear now.  I am ready to put it into production, but have a large backlog of Adapt products which I need to work through first.

I will of course announce when they are ready.  In the meantime, no matter how much room treatment you do or do not have, you will notice a drastic improvement with the Eighth Nerve Adapt treatments.

Thanks again,

Nathan Loyer
Eighth Nerve

[zybar]

Great review B!  

Like Chris said, I am glad to see you very happy with your system and just enjoying the tunes.

George

[Hantra]

Thanks for the comments fellas.  

One other thing that I think is very interesting is this:





I see the differences in the graph, and I am sure they do exist.  But if you look at the graph, it fails miserably to convey the amount of difference you will hear.

How do you measure soundstage depth, focus, imaging, etc. on a graph anyway?  LOL

[DSK]

...because we trap the return energy from the corner and lock it into a reflective cycle through the dense fiberglass, we get the benefit of the sound wave traveling through the 2 inch absorptive portion many times, which increases the virtual depth of the material....

Hi Nathan, I enjoy reading (and trying to understand) your advice so that I can better understand the concepts involved and take the most effective actions to improve my room (subject to rather rigid WAF   ).

I'm trying to understand how your Adept rectangles affect bass frequencies. I have read your website, but am still confused. I can understand higher frequencies that reflect into the corners being attenuated as they pass through the Adept toward the corner (and on the way back out from the corner) ...no problem. However, your website mentions that Adepts don't over attenuate higher frequencies ...so I am guessing that they have either a membrane on the outer surface to cause higher frequencies to be reflected (rather than passing through the Adept) or that the Adept's inner material is of high enough density to prevent penetration by higher frequencies and cause them to reflect instead....still no problem. (BTW your website incorrectly states that nobody else does this, whereas several do - usually with reflective membranes at the outer surface).

Now for the bit that confuses me ...Your website says ...
"...They are designed to allow sound energy to travel past the products into the corner, and then trap the distorted, amplified return energy by cycling the reflections back into the absorptive material until they are fully attenuated. By eliminating this distorted and amplified return wave..."

I've read that lower frequencies do not tend to bounce around the room (like higher frequencies do) but travel along the walls as a pressure wave. If this is so, then I can see how the LF frequencies travel along the intersecting walls, collide behind the Adept and reflect out toward/through the Adepts. I guess this is the 'horn' concept that your website claims "...we have discovered that the corners of a room act as a horn ..." (wasn't this originally discovered many years ago?   ).  

I can see that this may provide minimal attenuation of low frequencies if the Adept is extremely massive (given its 2" thickness) or uses a special membrane to absorb the energy (is that possible in a 2" thick trap?), but I don't understand how it can "cycle the reflections" or "eliminate" the return wave. Surely a low frequency return wave will pass through (perhaps with some attenuation) the Adept back out into the room? Given that bass can travel through regular plasterboard walls, how does a 2" trap "trap" it and "eliminate" it? Unless it uses a slab of steel on the outer surface to reflect the outward travelling bass back through the Adept to the corner, and to and fro until the energy is "eliminated". But then, wouldn't the energy hit the back of the steel slab and travel across it's face and out the sides of the Adept?

Nathan, I'm not disputing that the Adepts work (owners' comments seem to suggest that they do provide audible improvement in the bass), just trying to  understand the concept a bit better. I was always led to believe that bass attenuation required massive (eg. 8"+ thick semi-rigid fibreglass) and/or physically large (eg. helmholtz resonators) solutions to have a significant effect. If you are doing it in a 2" thick, light-weight solution that is relatively tiny in size, then this would appear to be a very remarkable achievement indeed.  

[zybar]

I think you meant Nathan and not Ethan.  

George

[DSK]

I think you meant Nathan and not Ethan.  
George

George, you are correct! Doh!    My apologies, Nathan ...the perils of posting on a Friday night  

[Hantra]

BTW your website incorrectly states that nobody else does this, whereas several do..

I can't find anywhere on the site where it says this.

I can see that this may provide minimal attenuation of low frequencies if the Adept is extremely massive (given its 2" thickness) or uses a special membrane to absorb the energy (is that possible in a 2" thick trap?), but I don't understand how it can "cycle the reflections" or "eliminate" the return wave. Surely a low frequency return wave will pass through (perhaps with some attenuation) the Adept back out into the room? Given that bass can travel through regular plasterboard walls, how does a 2" trap "trap" it and "eliminate" it? Unless it uses a slab of steel on the outer surface to reflect the outward travelling bass back through the Adept to the corner, and to and fro until the energy is "eliminated". But then, wouldn't the energy hit the back of the steel slab and travel across it's face and out the sides of the Adept?

This question is sort of like asking David Wilson to provide you with the exact "X" material recipe.  Or maybe asking Col. Sanders to give you the 11 herbs and spices with their exact proportions in order to convince you that his chicken tastes good.

I really don't know the answer here, but you could always buy one, saw it in half, and then your question would be answered.    

[8thnerve]

BTW your website incorrectly states that nobody else does this, whereas several do - usually with reflective membranes at the outer surface

While some other products use a reflective layer, it is generally just a layer of foil, and is on one side of the product.  The Eighth Nerve Adapt products are reflective on five sides, and ONLY absorb sound from the rear, not the sides, etc.  It is not a minor distinction.  Also, the intended placement of the products has a great deal of bearing on whether or not a product over-attenuates high frequencies.

"...we have discovered that the corners of a room act as a horn ..." (wasn't this originally discovered many years ago?)

I'm not saying that we were the first to realize that a giant 90 degree angle was a horn.  We discovered that the corners were acting as a horn when reflecting the sound energy back into the room and that it was a major factor responsible for echo and reverb.  If you can find an acoustics text or anything online or elsewhere that talks about how to reduce the effects of the amplified return wave of a corner in a room, please point me in that direction as I would love to not have to reinvent the wheel here.  

I was always led to believe that bass attenuation required massive (eg. 8"+ thick semi-rigid fibreglass) and/or physically large (eg. helmholtz resonators) solutions to have a significant effect. If you are doing it in a 2" thick, light-weight solution that is relatively tiny in size, then this would appear to be a very remarkable achievement indeed.

Thank you, we feel it's pretty remarkable ourselves.  The front face of the product is reflective, and although no material would trap all energy at any frequency, a certain amount of energy will be refelcted by the membrane and return to the corner, even at lower frequencies.  Is it going to cause a 20 Hz wave to bounce back?  Not by a significantly measurable amount.  Then why are there improvements at frequencies this low?  Because many of the bass frequency anomalies present in our rooms are due to the amplified and distorted return wave at other frequencies.  A phase distortion at 80Hz can cause dips and peaks at its harmonic frequencies, overtones and undertones.  Often by eliminating a phase distortion at 80 Hz, you'll eliminate what would have been a peak at the second undertone, 20 Hz.

With the upcoming Adapt bass product, we'll be able to do even more in this regard.  With a depth of 6 inches and similar placement techniques, significant improvements are made below 100 Hz, with audible results in the 20s.

[8thnerve]

This question is sort of like asking David Wilson to provide you with the exact "X" material recipe.  Or maybe asking Col. Sanders to give you the 11 herbs and spices with their exact proportions in order to convince you that his chicken tastes good.

Wow, I feel famous.  Keep this on the down low, but I heard it from a reliable source that the secret to the "X" recipe is the 11 herbs and spices!  Who knew that dropping your chicken wing in a vat of chemicals would result in the X2 Alexandria!?  Originally Dave Wilson tried to work with Dave Thomas, but his spicy chicken sandwich made the tweeters too hot.

[DSK]

...Then why are there improvements at frequencies this low? Because many of the bass frequency anomalies present in our rooms are due to the amplified and distorted return wave at other frequencies. A phase distortion at 80Hz can cause dips and peaks at its harmonic frequencies, overtones and undertones. Often by eliminating a phase distortion at 80 Hz, you'll eliminate what would have been a peak at the second undertone, 20 Hz.

With the upcoming Adapt bass product, we'll be able to do even more in this regard. With a depth of 6 inches and similar placement techniques, significant improvements are made below 100 Hz, with audible results in the 20s...

Nathan, thanks sincerely for your considered response and for taking it in the context in which it was intended (ie. quest for info, not criticism). I'm often hesitant to write these sorts of queries as manufacturers sometimes take them as personal attacks and get very defensive (sometimes even offensive). Your response has certainly enabled me to better understand the purpose and modus operandi of the Adepts.

My system is in the formal lounge room so I am unfortunately bound by WAF constraints ...anything looking remotely like an acoustic treatment is not accepted. Given that your Adepts work on reflections/waves travelling past (between the wall and the Adept) them rather than through their outward facing surface, I had the idea that they may still work to their full potential if they are mounted in the normal way but a shallow bookshelf (for wife's photo frames and ornaments) is placed across the corner in front of them. There would still be an inch gap between the sides of the bookshelf and the walls, to allow the reflections/waves to travel past the bookshelf and Adept into the corner. The bookshelf could be back-less or have a back ...given that the reflections don't need to hit the outer surface of the Adept, I'm guessing it doesn't matter if there is a back or not?

A nice dark wood bookshelf could be chosen to match the room's furniture, the wife would feel happy that the corner is effectively hers to display whatever ornaments she desires (as long as they don't resonate   ) and that the 'ugly' cylindrical bass trap would be banished. Meanwhile, I would get the same (or at least some?) of the trapping currently provided by the cylinder?  Everyone's a winner!

Nathan, will the Adept Rectangle work as well as normal in this setup?

[8thnerve]

Yes, the Adapts will work fine behind furniture as long as there is some gap for the sound to travel behind the structure.

[DSK]

Yes, the Adapts will work fine behind furniture as long as there is some gap for the sound to travel behind the structure.

Many thanks, Nathan.

WAF has severely restricted my ability to improve the room further, but it appears that I can now do so without having to kill her    

I might wait to see your upcoming bass treatments first ...any idea when they will be added to your website? Any Australian distributors likely to be announced in the very near future?

[8thnerve]

I might wait to see your upcoming bass treatments first ...any idea when they will be added to your website? Any Australian distributors likely to be announced in the very near future?

The bass treatments will be a little while, only because of the backlog of the current Adapt products.  It wouldn't make any sense for me to slow the production of the Adapt products by introducing a new product at this point.

We are working with an Australian distributor right now, and if everything goes well we should have Australian representation within about a month.

Best Regards,

Nathan Loyer
Eighth Nerve

[DSK]

...We are working with an Australian distributor right now, and if everything goes well we should have Australian representation within about a month...

Hey, that's great news! Thanks Nathan.